[The Java Posse] Re: Tor Joins Google

Early yesterday evening I felt what I thought was a small earth tremor but on catching up with Twitter I realised it coincided with Tor putting out his third ever tweet :-)) On Sep 28, 3:24 am, Christian Catchpole wrote: > I stand by my idea of re-tweeting the original in new and interesting > wa

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Rim Says: No Java Skills Required

It's my way of saying the video is stupid. I will, however, try to slip "app-rocking" in a conversation as soon as possible. Moandji On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Augusto Sellhorn < augusto.sellh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Is this post for real or am I failing to detect the sarcasm? > > Augusto >

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

Here's the clarification by Martin Odersky: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=270&thread=306728 On 9月28日, 下午2時57分, Fabrizio Giudici wrote: >   On 9/28/10 08:13 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:> Yes, it's pretty unfortunate. > > > One reaction on Twitter: > > > "Keeps the tourists at home. If som

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On 28 September 2010 09:17, haocheng wrote: > Here's the clarification by Martin Odersky: > http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=270&thread=306728 > > Repeated Here: *Martin Odersky:* I stand by what I said, but find the title of the post misleading and somewhat disconnected to the quote

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On Sep 28, 9:23 am, Kevin Wright wrote: > An important trait of being a good programmer is the willingness to learn > and push the boundaries of what can be done well. That's also why Scala is > quite suitable for new programmers, including children and students. There's no logical connection bet

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 10:51, Vince O'Sullivan wrote: > On Sep 28, 9:23 am, Kevin Wright wrote: > > An important trait of being a good programmer is the willingness to learn > > and push the boundaries of what can be done well. That's also why Scala > is > > quite suitable for new programmers, i

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Tor Joins Google

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Casper Bang wrote: > Because forking means you are required to drag along the gigantic tail > of legacy. I respect Google for having the guts to reboot the whole > thing occasionally, it's pragmatic. However I doubt they will be doing > their own IDE from scratch,

[The Java Posse] Re: Tor Joins Google

Why does anyone re-write anything? On Sep 28, 2:46 pm, Miroslav Pokorny wrote: > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Steven Herod wrote: > > > So... who wants to speculate on Google starting their own, ground up > > toolchain solution for GWT / Android / etc that is NOT based on > > Eclipse or Netbe

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

So by inference, people who are not convinced by Scala, are inferior developers unwilling to learn? On Sep 28, 11:55 am, B Smith-Mannschott wrote: > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 10:51, Vince O'Sullivan wrote: > > > On Sep 28, 9:23 am, Kevin Wright wrote: > > > An important trait of being a good progr

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On 9/28/10 13:29 , Casper Bang wrote: So by inference, people who are not convinced by Scala, are inferior developers unwilling to learn? I'll go and kill myself. First, I'm 5-10 years obsolete, since I like checked exceptions. Second, I'm not good because I don't like Scala and don't feel mot

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

Thats not at all what he said under the link provided. On Sep 28, 2:00 am, Casper Bang wrote: > What‘s worse, it type–casts developers not convinced by scala, as bad > developers. I take issue with that formulation, it doesn't take a chef > to assert a distaste. > > On Sep 28, 5:15 am, Cédric Beu

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

That's a double-negative... If you *are* an inferior developer and unwilling to learn, then Scala is not for you. I think this was the entire point... There are a lot of 9-5 "code monkeys" out there who are genuinely unwilling to learn, Scala will not appeal to these people. But if you are willi

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

The sentiment about Scala seems fair. It is been aimed at more capable programmers. To say that a language is aimed at capable, motivated developers is not the same as saying all capable and motivated developers will like it. I have disagreed with individuals on points of preference while at the s

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

Hitler was a bad man, and had a moustache. That's not the same as "all people with moustaches are bad", or "all bad people have moustaches", or even "all mustachioed bad people are Hitler"! On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Fabrizio Giudici wrote: >  On 9/28/10 13:29 , Casper Bang wrote: >> >> S

[The Java Posse] Re: Tor Joins Google

Well they only took a subset (some 2,514 classes for Android 2.1), the stuff that made sense! Contrast that with the modern JRE (some 17,378 classes for JDK6). On Sep 28, 12:59 pm, Miroslav Pokorny wrote: > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Casper Bang wrote: > > Because forking means you are req

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On 28 September 2010 12:54, Carl Jokl wrote: > > You can never please all programmers. > > I could well say that C is aimed at hard core expert programmers. Does > that mean that all capable, hard core types will like C? Most do, but it's just too low-level for day to day stuff. However, if yo

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

The point I am trying to make is that the typical argument "just use Scala" doesn't hold water, Scala can NOT fill the void left by Java - something that has been the subject of many a debate on these forums (too many in fact). On Sep 28, 1:51 pm, Kevin Wright wrote: > That's a double-negative...

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

Right, Scala won't be the magic bullet if you have an incompetent team. (Note that I don't imply that Scala will be a magic bullet if you have a competent team) A language that makes it harder to build up large broken codebases is needed. E.g., in Swing, it's really hard to unpick an evolved lar

[The Java Posse] Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

I know this is the Java posse rather than the C/C++ posse but given that I believe a number of you have C/C++ experience I hoped you might help me with a question. This isn't any kind of flame bate or provocation to argument I would just appreciate some honest opinion. I wonder for those who have

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

I don't really see the controversy in this. Martin is basically putting on a "marketing" hat for this quote. As wonderful as the final ad was in the movie Dodgeball, the reality is that if you want to get the message out about a product, you reach out to people that are already good in the field

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On 9/28/2010 7:27 AM, Ricky Clarkson wrote: A language that makes it harder to build up large broken codebases is needed. E.g., in Swing, it's really hard to unpick an evolved large program that does concurrency wrong without breaking bits, whereas .NET throws an exception if you instantiate a

Re: [The Java Posse] Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

On 09/28/2010 07:49 AM, Carl Jokl wrote: I know this is the Java posse rather than the C/C++ posse but given that I believe a number of you have C/C++ experience I hoped you might help me with a question. We'll try. But you know Java is good and C++ is bad already, right? :) This isn't any ki

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

I've been adding such assertions (usually as soft checks that do a Thread.dumpStack with some explanation) and it has helped, but it's also caused problems. E.g., the main app our library supports is a Swing desktop app, but there's an applet too, and applets (afaict) are instantiated on a non-EDT

Re: [The Java Posse] Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

A few random (and not necessarily related) observations: You CAN, sometimes, be more productive in C++ than in Java - especially if you're using something like the boost libraries. A lot depends on the nature of the problem. At first glance, C++ appears to offer checked exceptions like those of

Re: [The Java Posse] Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

> Just look around: Firefox, Safari, the JVM, OpenOffice.org, Adobe Reader, > etc.  They are all C++ based products. At least 3 of those are notoriously tricky to build! :) The other two are closed source. > I can't find too many Java products out there except IDEs like NetBeans, > Eclipse, Inte

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 13:29, Casper Bang wrote: > So by inference, people who are not convinced by Scala, are inferior > developers unwilling to learn? > No, don't be silly. What a motivated developer choses to learn need not be Scala. There's a vast landscape of interesting languages/tools/t

Re: [The Java Posse] [Scala] Martin Odersky says: Skills required

2010/9/27 Cédric Beust ♔ > This sounds like a reversal from the past position, and saying that Scala > is for good programmers only is not going to help adoption, unfortunately. > To expand on my point some. What isn't good for the adoption of Scala is when good Java programmers spurn it. Whi

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On Sep 28, 12:48 pm, Ricky Clarkson wrote: > Hitler was a bad man, and had a moustache.  That's not the same as > "all people with moustaches are bad", or "all bad people have > moustaches", or even "all mustachioed bad people are Hitler"! Owing to Hitler's mention I invoke Godwin's law on this t

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

> So by inference, people who are not convinced by Scala, are inferior > developers unwilling to learn? Of course this inference is wrong. The fact that there are some black cows doesn't imply that all the cows are black isn't it? As the fact that if (and I say if) Scala is suitable ONLY for progr

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On 9/28/10 16:29 , Mario Fusco wrote: Really ... aren't you tired of these pointless and endless discussions? I think that many of us have a bit of fun out of them :-) -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere." java.net/blog/fabriz

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

> I think that many of us have a bit of fun out of them :-) Sorry. I still have a bit of jet leg and didn't catch the irony :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. T

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

I also think it seems it is not understood that this is a "Black Card" situation. *sigh* If you need me...I'll be over here...coding. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

> If you need me...I'll be over here...coding. I hope you are coding in Scala, otherwise don't dare to consider yourself a good programmer! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googleg

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

May your evil mustache rise up and strangle your eyebrows. On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Mario Fusco wrote: >> If you need me...I'll be over here...coding. > > I hope you are coding in Scala, otherwise don't dare to consider > yourself a good programmer! > > -- > You received this message beca

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

So are goatees considered evil? I believe they're quite popular amongst Perl coders :) On 28 September 2010 16:10, Ricky Clarkson wrote: > May your evil mustache rise up and strangle your eyebrows. > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Mario Fusco > wrote: > >> If you need me...I'll be over her

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

A handle bar mustache has a +2 modifier on the 1D12 Sinister roll. On Sep 28, 9:42 am, Fabrizio Giudici wrote: >   On 9/28/10 16:29 , Mario Fusco wrote:> Really ... aren't you tired of these > pointless and endless > > discussions? > > I think that many of us have a bit of fun out of them :-)

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

D12, wow, isn't that a bit legacy? I understood that current thinking was to evaluate facial hair on the roll of a D20... On 28 September 2010 16:32, Scott Melton wrote: > > A handle bar mustache has a +2 modifier on the 1D12 Sinister roll. > > > On Sep 28, 9:42 am, Fabrizio Giudici > wrote: >

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On 28 Sep, 15:42, Fabrizio Giudici wrote: >   On 9/28/10 16:29 , Mario Fusco wrote:> Really ... aren't you tired of these > pointless and endless > > discussions? > > I think that many of us have a bit of fun out of them :-) > I quite like reading then :D Even I don't always agree. At least I

[The Java Posse] .... Leaves Oracle

Do we have a running list anywhere? Add another.. ZFS creator leaves Oracle Jeff Bonwick, After twenty years at Sun, now part of Oracle, he said he decided to try something new. http://blogs.sun.com/bonwick/en_US/entry/and_now_page_2 -- You received this message because you are subscribed t

[The Java Posse] Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dhtor/leaving_net/c10bnmu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+un

Re: [The Java Posse] .... Leaves Oracle

This is normal routine cycle of a changing company environment.. Plenty will be in the pipeline for you.. With the suits & other things going on, Sun loyalists will surely look outside.. hmm..google can surely poach some talent.. jd On 9/28/10, CKoerner wrote: > > Do we have a running list any

[The Java Posse] Re: .... Leaves Oracle

The important thing is that Jonathan Giles is still there. http://sarahjlwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/keep-calm-and-carry-on.png -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroup

Re: [The Java Posse] Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

Kevin, A fair assessment of C++ overall, except for that bit: On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 6:17 AM, Kevin Wright wrote: > Object allocation in Java is essentially free. In C++, malloc is > expensive. I don't recall malloc() (or new) ever even showing up in profiling traces. Ever. The main problem

[The Java Posse] Re: Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

"trolling" has really only one meaning: An act which is intentionally designed to get a rise out of someone. It can be done for two separate reasons; one, just to be an ass, the other is as the epitomy of satire (this one is excusable but a bit too deep to get into here). Scala seems to fit the

Re: [The Java Posse] Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

There's plenty enough on the thread as it is :) On 24 September 2010 06:42, GavinB wrote: > http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dhtor/leaving_net/c10bnmu > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group,

[The Java Posse] Re: Tor Leaves Oracle

Maybe it was just that itch to move on. It happens. Let's give Tor a break and not try to put too much meaning into a personal choice. Unless you've been walking in his shoes for his entire life I doubt anyone here has the kind of perspective you need to crack this nut. He's gone out of his way so

[The Java Posse] Re: On reducing exception noise

How should the check be done? ... catch(SomeException se, OtherException oe) { if (se != null) { handleException(); }else if (oe != null) { } } not sure if that helps... On Sep 23, 3:12 am, Josh McDonald wrote: > Hey guys, I'm not weighing in on checked v unchecked, just a syntax suga

[The Java Posse] Re: JavaPosse #324

Epic episode. Probably the funniest one since the chipmunks. Great concept! Yes, when will the video be available and where? doug -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JavaPosse #324

YES, GET ON WITH IT ! :-) On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:50, Doug wrote: > Epic episode. Probably the funniest one since the chipmunks. Great > concept! Yes, when will the video be available and where? > > doug > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Th

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

It's become better known here in the UK, since the Pope's recent state visit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/16/pope-benedict-xvi-atheist-extremism On 28 September 2010 17:03, maskellp wrote: > > > On 28 Sep, 15:42, Fabrizio Giudici > wrote: > >

[The Java Posse] Re: .... Leaves Oracle

Good point, Jitesh. After all, Sun was shedding great people before it was acquired too, both through layoffs and voluntary departures. Notably, nearly all the great Java Desktop minds are now on other platforms: for example, Chet Haase and Hans Mueller are at Adobe, Romain Guy is at Google (Androi

[The Java Posse] Re: Tor Leaves Oracle

At the end of the Java One event (which aired as episode #324) he stated: "It's really important to enjoy your job. Make sure that you work to live, not live to work. Talk to your employer, make sure you can work from home if that's what you want to do, and make sure you surround yourself with peop

[The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

On Sep 28, 11:55 am, Kevin Wright wrote: > D12, wow, isn't that a bit legacy? > I understood that current thinking was to evaluate facial hair on the roll > of a D20... No, you make a SAN roll instead. Just make sure your Scalathulhu Mythos skill doesn't get too high. Respectfully, Eric Jablo

[The Java Posse] Re: Tor Leaves Oracle

If Gosling can man up about the reasons he left I'm sure Tor can as well. He's the Almighty Tor! Not afraid to wield his coding hammer and speak his mind. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to jav

[The Java Posse] Re: .... Leaves Oracle

At this point I don't think even Lady Java wants to "...code like they do at Oracle" anymore. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, sen

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: .... Leaves Oracle

On 9/28/10 19:27 , Chris Adamson wrote: Good point, Jitesh. After all, Sun was shedding great people before it was acquired too, both through layoffs and voluntary departures. Notably, nearly all the great Java Desktop minds are now on other platforms: for example, Chet Haase and Hans Mueller ar

[The Java Posse] Re: 2011 Java Posse Roundup

Oh - we'll have one for sure... We just haven't sat down and figured out when/where. JavaOne was a bit draining to say the least! - Joe On Sep 12, 9:50 am, J B wrote: > Is there going to be a 2011 Java Posse roundup?  If so, when will > details come out, or are they somewhere already?  I woul

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: .... Leaves Oracle

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Fabrizio Giudici < fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it> wrote: > Why only Sun and now Oracle traffic gets so much attention is something > that I have to understand. That's not quite true. Cédric ♔'s departure earned a mention in TechCrunch

[The Java Posse] Fork Oracle

And it begins... A group of key contributors to the OpenOffice.org (OOo) project have formed a new organization called the Document Foundation to manage a community-driven fork of the popular open source office suite. Their goal is to liberate the project from Oracle's control and create a more in

[The Java Posse] Re: Fork Oracle

Apparently all major Linux distro's have already pledged their support: http://lwn.net/Articles/407383/ On Sep 28, 9:49 pm, CKoerner wrote: > And it begins... > > A group of key contributors to the OpenOffice.org (OOo) project have > formed a new organization called the Document Foundation to man

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: .... Leaves Oracle

On 9/28/10 21:35 , Moandji Ezana wrote: On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Fabrizio Giudici mailto:fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it>> wrote: Why only Sun and now Oracle traffic gets so much attention is something that I have to understand. That's not quite true. Cédric ♔'s departure earn

Re: [The Java Posse] .... Leaves Oracle

You do realise when you have 10-20k employees there is always going to be one or two leaving every other day. It would be unusual if there wasnt. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@go

[The Java Posse] Re: Fork Oracle

And so they imagine that some sugar daddy corporation will step into the gap and fund development of this fork? There are some software libraries and frameworks where community- driven maintenance works out. But software of this level of sophistication and complexity needs more substantial funding

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

I would argue more that Scala is language that invokes strong emotions. Love or Hate. Unfortunately for the Scala community, some members are far to zealous in their arguments, such that it may annoy others. However, I remember the same kinds of taunts from Groovy users at work. Why was that l

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Martin Odersky says: Skills required

I don't think logic works that way. That's like saying, of a box of colored shapes: "Some of the box-like shapes are blue" implies that "All non-box-like shapes are not blue" On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Casper Bang wrote: > So by inference, people who are not convinced by Scala, are inf

Re: [The Java Posse] Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

I feel I can honestly answer this question having gone from a professional 50% C++/Java -> 100% Java -> 100% Scala to now ~60-80% C++ (yay google...) Ironically, with good libraries I can be about as productive in C++ as I was in Java. There tends to be more boiler-plate in C++ and more decision

[The Java Posse] Re: Relative productivity of C/C++ relative to Java

I programmed in C for 15 years, skipped C++, and have been programming in Java for nearly 15 years. There are the myriads of libraries in Java that keeps you from rebuilding the wheel. But the main productivity drain that you have in C and likely C++ is the time spent debugging. It seemed that I

[The Java Posse] Re: Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

On Sep 28, 10:04 am, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > The gist of the first part of that argument is that this, which is > legal scala code: > >     user getAccount accountName isEnabled > > is indicative of a bad language. Its not possible to tell if this is > a golfed version of: user.getAccount().

[The Java Posse] Re: Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

Yes. Invoking strong emotions is an aspect of trolling. That was my point. It's a necessary but not sufficient condition. Time to get meta: You're asking people to actually list out the reasons for why they dislike Scala while at the same time asking why those same people tend to 'argue repeatedly

[The Java Posse] Re: Scala is a troll language. Rebuttals anyone ?

On Sep 29, 4:18 am, Paul Phillips wrote: > > It's not possible? If you don't know the language it's not possible, > I guess. Ah, yes, turns out if accountName is a method in this snippet: user getAccount accountName isEnabled scala indeed appears to throw out a compiler error complaining a