Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

Yep, and thank you to Suse, Fujitsu, and all the contributors. I suppose we can all be charitable when reading this from the Red Hat Whitepaper at: https://www.redhat.com/whitepapers/rha/gfs/GFS_INS0032US.pdf: << Red Hat GFS is the world’s leading cluster file system for Linux. >> If that is

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Also, I don't think I've ever seen any patches posted from a Red Hat address > on the ML, so I don't think they were really all that involved in > development to begin with. Unfortunately the email domain

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-17 02:25, GWB wrote: << Or else it could be an argument that they expect Btrfs to do their job while they watch cat videos from the intertubes. :-) My favourite quote from the list this week, and, well, obviously, that is the main selling point of file systems like btrfs, zfs, and

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

<< Or else it could be an argument that they expect Btrfs to do their job while they watch cat videos from the intertubes. :-) >> My favourite quote from the list this week, and, well, obviously, that is the main selling point of file systems like btrfs, zfs, and various other lvm and raid set

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Qu Wenruo wrote: > BTW, when Fujitsu tested the postgresql workload on btrfs, the result is > quite interesting. > > For HDD, when number of clients is low, btrfs shows obvious performance > drop. > And the problem seems to be mandatory

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 09:53:57AM -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > > So apart from some central DBs for the storage management system > > itself, CoW is mostly no issue for us. > > But I've talked to some friend at the local super computing centre and > > they have rather general issues with

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Thu, Aug 03, 2017 at 08:08:59PM +0200, waxhead wrote: > BTRFS biggest problem is not that there are some bits and pieces that > are thoroughly screwed up (raid5/6 (which just got some fixes by the > way)), but the fact that the documentation is rather dated. > > There is a simple status

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

[ ... ] >>> Snapshots work fine with nodatacow, each block gets CoW'ed >>> once when it's first written to, and then goes back to being >>> NOCOW. >>> The only caveat is that you probably want to defrag either >>> once everything has been rewritten, or right after the >>> snapshot. >> I thought

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

[ ... ] > But I've talked to some friend at the local super computing > centre and they have rather general issues with CoW at their > virtualisation cluster. Amazing news! :-) > Like SUSE's snapper making many snapshots leading the storage > images of VMs apparently to explode (in terms of

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

> We use the crcs to catch storage gone wrong, [ ... ] And that's an opportunistically feasible idea given that current CPUs can do that in real-time. > [ ... ] It's possible to protect against all three without COW, > but all solutions have their own tradeoffs and this is the setup > we chose.

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-16 10:11, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Wed, 2017-08-16 at 09:53 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: Go try BTRFS on top of dm-integrity, or on a system with T10-DIF or T13-EPP support When dm-integrity is used... would that be enough for btrfs to do a proper repair in the

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Wed, 2017-08-16 at 09:53 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Go try BTRFS on top of dm-integrity, or on a  > system with T10-DIF or T13-EPP support When dm-integrity is used... would that be enough for btrfs to do a proper repair in the RAID+nodatacow case? I assume it can't do repairs now

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017年08月16日 21:12, Chris Mason wrote: On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 09:54:48PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 11:53 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: Quite a few applications actually _do_ have some degree of secondary verification or protection from a crash. Go

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-16 09:12, Chris Mason wrote: My real goal is to make COW fast enough that we can leave it on for the database applications too. Obviously I haven't quite finished that one yet ;) But I'd rather keep the building block of all the other btrfs features in place than try to do crcs

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-16 09:31, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: Just out of curiosity: On Wed, 2017-08-16 at 09:12 -0400, Chris Mason wrote: Btrfs couples the crcs with COW because this (which sounds like you want it to stay coupled that way)... plus It's possible to protect against all three

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

Just out of curiosity: On Wed, 2017-08-16 at 09:12 -0400, Chris Mason wrote: > Btrfs couples the crcs with COW because this (which sounds like you want it to stay coupled that way)... plus > It's possible to protect against all three without COW, but all  > solutions have their own tradeoffs

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 09:54:48PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 11:53 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: Quite a few applications actually _do_ have some degree of secondary  verification or protection from a crash.  Go look at almost any database  software.

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-15 10:41, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Tue, 2017-08-15 at 07:37 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: Go look at Chrome, or Firefox, or Opera, or any other major web browser. At minimum, they will safely bail out if they detect corruption in the user profile and can trivially

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Tue, 2017-08-15 at 07:37 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Go look at Chrome, or Firefox, or Opera, or any other major web > browser.  >   At minimum, they will safely bail out if they detect corruption in > the  > user profile and can trivially resync the profile from another system > if  >

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-14 15:54, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 11:53 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: Quite a few applications actually _do_ have some degree of secondary verification or protection from a crash. Go look at almost any database software. Then please give proper

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/14/2017 09:08 PM, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Goffredo Baroncelli > wrote: > >> Form a theoretical point of view, if you have a "PURE" COW file-system, you >> don't need a journal. Unfortunately a RAID5/6 stripe update is a RMW cycle, >> so

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 11:53 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Quite a few applications actually _do_ have some degree of secondary  > verification or protection from a crash.  Go look at almost any > database  > software. Then please give proper references for this! This is from 2015, where

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 10:23 -0400, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Assume you have higher level verification.  Would you rather not be > able  > to read the data regardless of if it's correct or not, or be able to  > read it and determine yourself if it's correct or not? What would be the

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Goffredo Baroncelli wrote: > Form a theoretical point of view, if you have a "PURE" COW file-system, you > don't need a journal. Unfortunately a RAID5/6 stripe update is a RMW cycle, > so you need a journal to keep it in sync. The same is

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 14/08/17 16:53, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Quite a few applications actually _do_ have some degree of secondary > verification or protection from a crash. I am glad your applications do and you have no need of this feature. You are welcome not to use it. I, on the other hand, definitely

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-14 11:13, Graham Cobb wrote: On 14/08/17 15:23, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: Assume you have higher level verification. But almost no applications do. In real life, the decision making/correction process will be manual and labour-intensive (for example, running fsck on a virtual

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 14/08/17 15:23, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: > Assume you have higher level verification. But almost no applications do. In real life, the decision making/correction process will be manual and labour-intensive (for example, running fsck on a virtual disk or restoring a file from backup). >

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-14 08:24, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 14:36 +0800, Qu Wenruo wrote: And how are you going to write your data and checksum atomically when doing in-place updates? Exactly, that's the main reason I can figure out why btrfs disables checksum for nodatacow.

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/14/2017 09:08 AM, Qu Wenruo wrote: > >> >> Supposing to log for each transaction BTRFS which "data NOCOW blocks" will >> be updated and their checksum, in case a transaction is interrupted you know >> which blocks have to be checked and are able to verify if the checksum >> matches and

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017年08月14日 20:32, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 15:46 +0800, Qu Wenruo wrote: The problem here is, if you enable csum and even data is updated correctly, only metadata is trashed, then you can't even read out the correct data. So what? This problem occurs anyway

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 15:46 +0800, Qu Wenruo wrote: > The problem here is, if you enable csum and even data is updated  > correctly, only metadata is trashed, then you can't even read out > the  > correct data. So what? This problem occurs anyway *only* in case of a crash,.. and *only* if

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Mon, 2017-08-14 at 14:36 +0800, Qu Wenruo wrote: > > And how are you going to write your data and checksum atomically > > when > > doing in-place updates? > > Exactly, that's the main reason I can figure out why btrfs disables  > checksum for nodatacow. Still, I don't get the problem here...

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

<cales...@scientia.net> Cc: Btrfs BTRFS <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org> Subject: Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut? On 2017年08月12日 15:42, Christoph Hellwig wrote: On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 02:10:18AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: Qu Wenruo wrote:

RE: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

ntia.net> > Cc: Btrfs BTRFS <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org> > Subject: Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut? > > > > On 2017年08月12日 15:42, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 02:10:18AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitte

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017年08月13日 22:08, Goffredo Baroncelli wrote: On 08/12/2017 02:12 PM, Hugo Mills wrote: On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 01:51:46PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Sat, 2017-08-12 at 00:42 -0700, Christoph Hellwig wrote: [...] good, but csum is not I don't think

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017年08月12日 15:42, Christoph Hellwig wrote: On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 02:10:18AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: Qu Wenruo wrote: Although Btrfs can disable data CoW, nodatacow also disables data checksum, which is another main feature for btrfs. Then decoupling of the two should

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/12/2017 02:12 PM, Hugo Mills wrote: > On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 01:51:46PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: >> On Sat, 2017-08-12 at 00:42 -0700, Christoph Hellwig wrote: [...] >> good, but csum is not > >I don't think this is a particularly good description of

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 01:51:46PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: > On Sat, 2017-08-12 at 00:42 -0700, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > > And how are you going to write your data and checksum atomically when > > doing in-place updates? > > Maybe I misunderstand something, but what's the big

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Sat, 2017-08-12 at 00:42 -0700, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > And how are you going to write your data and checksum atomically when > doing in-place updates? Maybe I misunderstand something, but what's the big deal with not doing it atomically (I assume you mean in terms of actually writing to

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 02:10:18AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: > Qu Wenruo wrote: > >Although Btrfs can disable data CoW, nodatacow also disables data  > >checksum, which is another main feature for btrfs. > > Then decoupling of the two should probably decoupled and support for >

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

Qu Wenruo wrote: >Although Btrfs can disable data CoW, nodatacow also disables data  >checksum, which is another main feature for btrfs. Then decoupling of the two should probably decoupled and support for notdatacow+checksumming be implemented?! I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't see why this

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017年08月07日 23:27, Chris Murphy wrote: On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Qu Wenruo wrote: For example, if one day there is some dm-csum to support verify csum of given ranges (and skip unrelated ones specified by higher levels), btrfs support for data csum is

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Qu Wenruo wrote: > > For example, if one day there is some dm-csum to support verify csum of > given ranges (and skip unrelated ones specified by higher levels), btrfs > support for data csum is no longer an exclusive feature. How would

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

Hi Qu, On Fri, Aug 4, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Qu Wenruo wrote: > > > On 2017年08月02日 16:38, Brendan Hide wrote: >> >> The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be >> misconstrued. :-/ >> >> From the release notes at >>

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017年08月02日 16:38, Brendan Hide wrote: The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ From the release notes at

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-03 16:45, Brendan Hide wrote: On 08/03/2017 09:22 PM, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: On 2017-08-03 14:29, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Thu, 2017-08-03 at 20:08 +0200, waxhead wrote: There are no higher-level management tools (e.g. RAID management/monitoring, etc.)... [snip]

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

Austin S. Hemmelgarn posted on Thu, 03 Aug 2017 15:03:53 -0400 as excerpted: >> Same thing with the trim feature that is marked OK . It clearly says >> that is has performance implications. It is marked OK so one would >> expect it to not cause the filesystem to fail, but if the performance >>

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Brendan Hide wrote: > > To counter, I think this is a big problem with btrfs, especially in terms of > user attrition. We don't need "GUI" tools. At all. But we do need that btrfs > is self-sufficient enough that regular users don't get

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/03/2017 09:22 PM, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: On 2017-08-03 14:29, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Thu, 2017-08-03 at 20:08 +0200, waxhead wrote: There are no higher-level management tools (e.g. RAID management/monitoring, etc.)... [snip] As far as 'higher-level' management tools,

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-03 14:29, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Thu, 2017-08-03 at 20:08 +0200, waxhead wrote: Brendan Hide wrote: The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ From the release notes at

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:11 AM, Wang Shilong wrote: > I haven't seen active btrfs developers from some time, Redhat looks > put most of their efforts on XFS, It is time to switch to SLES/opensuse! I disagree. We need one or more Btrfs developers involved in Fedora.

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-03 14:08, waxhead wrote: Brendan Hide wrote: The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ From the release notes at

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Thu, 2017-08-03 at 20:08 +0200, waxhead wrote: > Brendan Hide wrote: > > The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be  > > misconstrued. :-/ > > > > From the release notes at  > > https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Li > >

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

Brendan Hide wrote: The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ From the release notes at

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/03/2017 12:22 AM, Chris Murphy wrote: Also more interesting is this Stratis project that started up a few months ago: https://github.com/stratis-storage/stratisd Which also includes this design document: https://stratis-storage.github.io/StratisSoftwareDesign.pdf This concept, if

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 2:38 AM, Brendan Hide wrote: > The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be > misconstrued. :-/ Josef pushed bak on the HN thread with very sound reasoning about why this is totally unsurprising. RHEL runs old kernels, and

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > On 08/02/2017 04:38 AM, Brendan Hide wrote: >> >> The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be >> misconstrued. :-/ > > > Supporting any filesystem is a huge amount of work. I don't have a problem > with

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/02/2017 04:38 AM, Brendan Hide wrote: The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ Supporting any filesystem is a huge amount of work. I don't have a problem with Redhat or any distro picking and choosing the projects they want to support. At

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-02 08:55, Lutz Vieweg wrote: On 08/02/2017 01:25 PM, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: And this is a worst-case result of the fact that most distros added BTRFS support long before it was ready. RedHat still advertises "Ceph", and given Ceph initially recommended btrfs as the

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 08/02/2017 01:25 PM, Austin S. Hemmelgarn wrote: And this is a worst-case result of the fact that most distros added BTRFS support long before it was ready. RedHat still advertises "Ceph", and given Ceph initially recommended btrfs as the filesystem to use for its nodes, it is interesting

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

On 2017-08-02 04:38, Brendan Hide wrote: The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ From the release notes at

Re: RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

I haven't seen active btrfs developers from some time, Redhat looks put most of their efforts on XFS, It is time to switch to SLES/opensuse! On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:38 PM, Brendan Hide wrote: > The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be >

RedHat 7.4 Release Notes: "Btrfs has been deprecated" - wut?

The title seems alarmist to me - and I suspect it is going to be misconstrued. :-/ From the release notes at https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/7/html/7.4_Release_Notes/chap-Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux-7.4_Release_Notes-Deprecated_Functionality.html "Btrfs