David,
I have no wish to discuss this matter any further. AJN
- Original Message -
From: "David Tayler"
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 4:34 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Let me be very clear, I'm not s
Let me be very clear, I'm not saying I was misunderstood, I'm saying
I didn't say it.
"Sorry I misunderstood you and the intended thrust of your comments.
Perhaps it would have under the circumstances been advisable to change the
subject heading, because I mistakenly saw your message as being dir
tory, namely "No. 33 rasgueado" by Diomedes Cato in the
Hainhofer Lautenbücher, and the long-winded variant of No. 33 in the Cosens
Lute Book (mentioned by Jean-Marie).
Arthur.
- Original Message -
From: "David Tayler"
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Satu
Snip
David Tayler is mistaken when he claims that I "evened up" uneven passages
in Francesco's music. No serious editor of early music would ever do
something like that.
Snip
Actually, I never said anything of the sort, nor would I. All of the
material in your edition is in the critical commenta
- Original Message -
From:
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 8:09 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
<>
imitation will often change the intervals as the harmony demands that,
yes, rhythm seems most often kept, b
>>Somebody needs to find you some better scotch.
Here! here!
lots of scotch vendors in the hamptons, but few of them carry any single
malt, my mothers favorite, and something I didnt inherit enough of to
develop any taste for (yet).
>>>I picked a piece, Mille Regretz, that doesn't start on a r
It may be that the Scotch is too good.
Hey, I didn't invent the Liuto Forte, but there is one for sale on
Wayne's list.
dt
>The what? the who?
>
>Somebody needs to find you some better scotch.
>
>
>On Nov 30, 2010, at 6:32 PM, David Tayler wrote:
>
>And don't play you Ogni Sorte on you Liuto F
And don't play you Ogni Sorte on you Liuto Forte!
dt
At 06:25 PM 11/30/2010, you wrote:
>If the van Ghizeghem's rockin' don't come Tandernaken!
>
>
>On Nov 30, 2010, at 5:56 PM, David Tayler wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Snip
>>I am minded of the editions of Ogni Sorte, not only are they
>>presented in
>>origi
>
>Snip
>I am minded of the editions of Ogni Sorte, not only are they presented in
>original notation and parts as well as score, but also the editions focus
>on specific themes, eg, De tous biens plains, all 28 known versions by all
>composers. (See _De tous Biens Plaine_, Cynthia J Cyrus, A-R Ed
> When making a scholarly edition, let's just include a facsimile of
> each and every version, digitally. Total information; no paper
> wasted. Isn't that the best way? What could be better?
> Anything less is relegating the alternate versions to the scrap heap
> of history. And in the transcrip
Snip
If someone wants to play freely the
beginning is ok, of course, but we have to think a little more about
the music written by Francesco and in general about the writing and the
performance practice of the counterpoint in the first half of the
Sixteenth-century.
Snip
This is
.@web.de>
To: "Lute List" <[2][3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:43 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
> Thank you for all your responses!
>
> Sorry I didn't write clearly.
>
>
54:35 ==
> - Original Message -
> From: "Susanne Herre" <[1]mandolinens...@web.de>
> To: "Lute List" <[2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:43 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
> > Th
I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco, however as an issue of
performance practice, not musicology, I still hold that the beginning
of a piece may be in free time, and that there is no urtext or
composer's intent except in very rare cases (Byrd).
As we can see from John and Robert Dowland, a
- Original Message -
From: "Susanne Herre" <[1]mandolinens...@web.de>
To: "Lute List" <[2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:43 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
> Thank you for all your respon
10 13:15:42 -0800
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
>
> Basically, if you look at all the sources for renaissance music,
> including lute music, you will see many pieces that begin and end
Basically, if you look at all the sources for renaissance music,
including lute music, you will see many pieces that begin and end
with the equivalent of a longa, and that the time for these notes, as
well as those at medial cadences, can be free.
Looking again at the sources, if you look at ho
est wishes,
Susanne
- Original Message -
From: "David Tayler"
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:30 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
There are several issues here.
The first is that the opening note may be said
There are several issues here.
The first is that the opening note may be said to have an implied
coronoa, or fermata in the historical sense, creating a time free
zone (TFZ) which may be played longer or shorter, or with graces
appropriate to beginning a piece.
The mss sources support this. In t
"corrected" opening motif.
If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting
to know about that.
Thanks to all,
Susanne
- Original Message -
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier"
To: "Peter Martin" ; "Lute list"
Sent: Wedn
Sorry, read "options" instead of "oprtions"... ;-(
=
== En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 15:50:00 ==
>Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? "La Compagna",
>perfect, but not "La Sosia" ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the introductory
Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? "La Compagna",
perfect, but not "La Sosia" ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the introductory
motive are slightly, but significantly different. It seems impossible to me to
adopt the same rhythmical symetry (semibreve, quarter, quarter)
We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La
Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that
number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed.
That's what I play.. :)
P
On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier
True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement.
Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests
a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there
is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscri
Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the
opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So
there's certainly room for doubt.
I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness
edition (I don't have it here to check). How
Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint...
Best,
JM
=
== En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 ==
>
>
>
>correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the
>first motif respectively the first bar in general...
>
>
>
>- Ori
Dear Susanne,
I don't understand your point here. The answer to your question is in the
contrantunpal writing itself : Francesco imitates his initial motive note for
note (2nd and 3rd bars) and he doesn't use an "upbeat" to do that, which
certainly means that he intended it exactly like it is,
correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the
first motif respectively the first bar in general...
- Original Message -
From: "Susanne Herre"
To: "Lute List"
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
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