Nachricht-
Von: David Tayler [mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 07:20
An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide.
I
. Februar 2009 07:20
An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide.
I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a
whole book
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 10:04 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
I don't agree with Mr Haynes, but it doesn't matter, I use primary sources.
Why use a secondary source?
To point us to the primary sources. ;-)
As for recording changing the way people play, that simply can't be true,
[mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 10:27
An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 10:04 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
I don't agree with Mr Haynes, but it doesn't matter, I use primary
sources.
Why use
From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
Some are. Some aren't.
I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide.
I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a
whole book of
the best
Mark
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: David van Ooijen [mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Februar 2009 10:27
An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 10:04 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
I don't agree
If it's still about ''French trill'', I'd insist -- it's ''ours
trill'', however long would be someone's explanations and
justifications.
Therefore the HIP performance is always ''modern'' or ''currant'' or
''today'' (without going into the present day entangled terminology).
In a way
On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:19 AM, David Tayler wrote:
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
So do I. But the expression the old ways covers a multitude of
sins. I don't like, for example, those old recordings of the
Matthew Passion where the opening chorus takes longer than
On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:19 AM, David Tayler wrote:
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
So do I. But the expression the old ways covers a multitude of
sins. I don't like, for example, those old recordings of the
Matthew Passion where the opening chorus takes longer than
David T, David R,
On 2009-02-03, at 17:30, David Rastall wrote:
On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:19 AM, David Tayler wrote:
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
You mean your father and grandfather's or the Bocquet and Mouton way?
As I'd objectively appreciate and trust the
So you both think ''deconstruction'' as a method is bad. Hm, I
wonder if we all think about the same. But I fear you are
permanently deconstructing the music lying on your music stand and
joining up together some way..., aren't you?
Time to narrow the terms to specifically fit the
Just do your own paper edits--
I find I do two clean takes, and the rest are all improv takes, fun
takes, and I get to choose some really nice things--much closer to a
concert performance.
Or hire me to produce ;)
dt
I have become better, through recording. Concentration improved,
accuracy
It's much simpler than that, we are playing the trill backwards.
I'm just suggesting to try it the other way round. That's it. People
can play it anyway they want (they will anyway)--that's a good thing.
You can take any aspect of the lute, I mean you could take the
strings off, glue the pegs
On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:49 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:
Besides, I keck at the sight of such incantations as
...music is forever.
Oh gosh, I wouldn't want to arouse any kind of reaction such as
that! ;-) ;-)
I was merely paraphrasing filmmaker Peter Jackson. When his actors
would complain that he
[mailto:jurek...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 2. Februar 2009 01:03
An: lute list
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
I know of the book but don't have it yet. But I know Taruskin also
from a second hand relations. So I must tell, I don't feel as a
victime of any crisis without access
...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 2. Februar 2009 01:03
An: lute list
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
I know of the book but don't have it yet. But I know
Taruskin also
from a second hand relations. So I must tell, I
don't feel as a
victime of any crisis without access to medicine
Hoppy does a bit (of various degrees) of re/composition that appears on his
CD's.
RT
- Original Message -
From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com
To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:35 PM
Subject: [LUTE] French trill + New thrill
OK, then live music is
As you might expect - I advocate the same thing as Haynes, sans balking. I'd
rather deal with the last Tuesday's trills, than anything by, say, Matteis.
RT
From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net
On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mark Wheeler wrote:
You should check out Bruce Haynes book The end
I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better.
I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide.
I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a
whole book of deconstructionist.
dt
At 04:40 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote:
As you might expect - I
There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's
allemande #7 (Vm7 6214 fol. 5)
.2 31 1 1 1 1
---|-a---#e-e-|
-a-|-a'---r'---a--|
---|-a|
---|-a|
---|--|
---|--|
. ///a
If you execute the
Surely *any* ornament on that first chord is going to give a ninth.
Accept it, and enjoy!
P
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Mathias Roesel
[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote:
There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's
allemande #7 (Vm7 6214 fol. 5)
.2
In fact, an appoggiatura on the root is not uncommon, and does not
obscure anything.
As a matter of fact, it does ;)
Charpentier, in fact, specifically writes the figure Sharp eight
Don't know where is that, but Jerzy cited another example, i. e. Chahos
by Rebel. So there are examples in
Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com schrieb:
Surely *any* ornament on that first chord is going to give a ninth.
Yes, somewhen in due course. I'm not against ninths, I sometimes accept
and enjoy them ;) The point at issue is, however, whether an ornament
should put up the ninth before the
I wasn't looking for the one and only appropiate execution of
commas.
The one and only appropiate execution shouldn't exist in music, and
best if we end up with different solutions! For the welfare of United
Colours of B... aroque Music.
I'm suspicious that what I was actually looking
The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill''
concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne twisting
description) biginning from the main note, is not enough. It is a
long note and long notes invite something extra, something special.
The well known Lacrimae
Andreas,
On 2009-02-01, at 18:50, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
Here's what Denis Gaultier (or M.de Montarcis) wrote as last
comment in rule 7 in the Livre de tablature (in French - for
English translation see the article of Jorge Torres in the recent
LSA Journal):
... mais il faut observer
Of course, the paradox concernes us, creators and consumers of music
and our vision of the modern phenomenon called ''historical music''.
It is a fancy interplay between science and art, it's a modern thing
in music history -- isn't it?, and in a way quite logically it's
''modern music''
=booksqid=1233529394sr=8-1
Mark
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jerzy Zak [mailto:jurek...@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 1. Februar 2009 23:30
An: lute
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
Of course, the paradox concernes us, creators and consumers of music
and our vision of the modern
On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mark Wheeler wrote:
You should check out Bruce Haynes book The end of early music
I couldn't agree more. It's a very good read. Although Haynes is a
strong advocate for the writing of new music in the Baroque style,
which makes me balk a little bit. I'd rather go
)
-Original Message-
From: David Rastall [mailto:dlu...@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:57 PM
To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Cc: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
On Jan 28, 2009, at 4:19 PM, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri
Dear Jerzy,
checking the source would be great, but unfortunately I share your
plight, not owning a copy or facsimile of Vm7 6214. I have to rely on
the CNRS edition.
I wasn't familiar with the dating by Rave. The sisters Bocquet
flourished during the 1640ies, so there are some 30 years between
Dear Mathias,
On 2009-02-01, at 00:23, Mathias Rösel wrote:
Dear Jerzy,
checking the source would be great, but unfortunately I share your
plight, not owning a copy or facsimile of Vm7 6214. I have to rely on
the CNRS edition.
I wasn't familiar with the dating by Rave. The sisters Bocquet
--- Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de
wrote:
There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's
allemande #7 (Vm7 6214
fol. 5)
.2 31 1 1 1 1
---|-a---#e-e-|
-a-|-a'---r'---a--|
---|-a|
---|-a|
---|--|
Allthough I find Mace interesting, colorful,
fascinating, I don't consider him a reliable source.
Sometimes he's the only source, but he obviously is into the fantastic affect.
Matteis, on the other hand, is eccentric, but
organized, as well as a prolific composer and player.
dt
dt
03:23
Subject: [LUTE] Re: French trill?
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 29 January, 2009, 9:38 PM
There is no argument concerning the duration of an appogiatura, I
suppose. One half with even value, at least two thirds with odd value.
My question, however
Dear Jerzy,
it's amazing to me, indeed, how a baroque piece that starts with a 7th
in the opening chord, comes to your mind just like that.
As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular
questio.
I didn't mean to ask David Tayler exclusively because I prefer
Rebe= l's Cahos is not really to the point, since it is a depiction
of primordial Chaos. Mathias was questioning a dissonance that was
presumably intended for the composer's well-ordered French universe.
There isn't much of a difference between an intended depiction and a
it's amazing to me, indeed, how a baroque piece that starts with a
7th
9th, that is. Sorry!
M.
in the opening chord, comes to your mind just like that.
As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular
questio.
I didn't mean to ask David
Eh! =A0 Didn't the appogiatura change (short to long) from the early
17th through to the late 18thC (see, for example, Donnington pp 197
-228)
Does that mean that any appogiatura occuring during the, say, 1st half
of the 17th century is short, or would that be somewhat
On Jan 30, 2009, at 5:03 AM, mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote:
it's amazing to me, indeed, how a baroque piece that starts with a 7th
in the opening chord, comes to your mind just like that.
It starts with a tone cluster, and it comes to mind because it's
famous. It's famous precisely
The server didn't like my dash.
This should read:
It starts with a tone cluster, and it comes to mind because it's
famous. It's famous precisely because it's unique -- a composer
trying
to make the most atypical, anarchic sound he can make -- and thus
useless as a model of normal
Absolutely--I'm not claiming to be an expert, I have just read all
the literature and all the sources.
Open dialogue is the way to go!
dt
I didn't mean to ask David Tayler exclusively because I prefer open
discussions rather than dialogues, and, second, David is not the only
Dear Mathias,
So lets to the point and your Allemande.
I don't pretend my method is right but if I'd have such a problem for
the first time I'd first chack the source as I do not always trust
the CNRS editions wich I just catched.The volume was published in
1972, the 'Tableau des signes
=== 29-01-2009 01:14:46 ===
I only mention the Monteclair because it is so
readily available, and explains the key points.
I think that for most of the basic things, that
is fine. It is translated into English, and so on.
Experts will always prefer the primary
sources--mainly the music
Dear Jean-Marie,
Thanks for you detailed response.
I would be happy to refute your points one by one, but my main
point--in fact my only point, really--
that everyone is playing the ornament backwards, is the one you don't discuss.
I'm sorry about the spelling of Broderie, although it is
The variant border vs brouder, is exactly of the same sort as
that of French fromage vs fourmage (from M.L. formaticum, from L.
forma shape, form, mold), originally formage (something that is
shaped) giving also the regional variant Fourme. In other words it
is an easilly explainable
Dear David,
Thank you for your reply. I didn't mean to get controversial and I understand
your point very well. Moreover, being a lefty - including for lute playing -
I know what you mean when you speak of backwards movements, but I am quite
sure my memoryworks both ways ;-).
Lewis Carroll is
Dear David and All,
Strange discussion or rather no dscussion...
It's good point about today preference for a short appogiatura among
lutenists playing baroque music. Very often it sounds as if a
luteplayer were playing those small notes in Giuliani or Carulli ;-))
I don't know if it's
There is no argument concerning the duration of an appogiatura, I
suppose. One half with even value, at least two thirds with odd value.
My question, however, was if there should be an appogiatura at all.
There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's allemande #7 (Vm7 6214
fol. 5)
.2 31
Mathias,
As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular
questio. But something not so far removed comes to my mind. Some of
you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel, namely Les
elemens and its first part, Le Cahos. Here you can clik and listen
to the first
Rebel's Cahos is not really to the point, since it is a depiction of
primordial Chaos. Mathias was questioning a dissonance that was
presumably intended for the composer's well-ordered French universe.
On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote:
Some of you may know the famous French
An answer to Mathias question is still to come -- I said that.
But the well-ordered French universe, as well as any other European
baroque music universe is permanently beeing 'devastated' -- isn't
it? -- by all the expected or unexpected appogiaturas creating 4ths,
7ths or 9ths. It's
David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb:
Without wishing to go too far down this path, modern performance
practice does not really reflect the historical sources for trills
and other ornamnents. The appogiatura was as long or longer than the
main note, and they had 23 or so basic types
Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because
that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation
practice, and then the airs avec doubles of Lambert for the brouderie
style you can feather in.
dt
the 17th centurtyairs avec doubles of
David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb:
Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because
that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation
practice,
There's certainly no argument about the importance of Montéclair's book.
1736 is a bit late,
=== 28-01-2009 19:21:00 ===
David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb:
Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because
that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation
practice,
There's certainly no argument about the importance of
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr said:
I believe feather is a technical term in rowing and in this case would mean
something like dig. But I may be totally wrong of course ;-) !
rather the opposite, one feathers an oar by twisting the wrists during the
recovery
On Jan 28, 2009, at 4:19 PM, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr said:
I believe feather is a technical term in rowing and in this case
would mean something like dig. But I may be totally wrong of
course ;-) !
rather the opposite,
Shorter DT:
We are playing it backwards. The sources agree, the music agrees.
You can see the differences, including the
changed harmonies and changed position of the trill itself:
http://voicesofmusic.org/trill.html
Note that this is one example, there are a
thousand ways to play this
Dear Mathias All:
I realize this is slightly off-topic, but I had a conversation on this
very subject in the recent past with a lutenist who insisted that the
tablatures for d-minor tuning in the CNRS Bocquet volume are by a Mlle.
Bocquet. Apparently, Monique Rollin did not have a
Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com schrieb:
tablatures for d-minor tuning in the CNRS Bocquet volume are by a Mlle.
Bocquet. Apparently, Monique Rollin did not have a single shred of
evidence that this music was by one of the two lute-playing Mlles.
Bocquet. The attribution was
Without wishing to go too far down this path, modern performance
practice does not really reflect the historical sources for trills
and other ornamnents. The appogiatura was as long or longer than the
main note, and they had 23 or so basic types of agreements, of
which the main note trill was
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