Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

> I recommend you try working with them vs calling them out as being > bad actors - These teams (especially the Mailchimp team) works very > hard, harder than most hosting companies i would imagine, to stop > abusive behaviour from their networks sending billions of emails > around the world. From

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 11:30:23 -0700, David Carriger via mailop wrote: >I'm not saying this as an attempt to call anyone out, or start a fight, but >my point is that those of us who are active in these industry mailing lists >and conferences are the ones who care. We want to do better. We're up

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Thanks for being a voice of reason, Matt. ESPs don't always get things right, but the ESPs who are participating in M3AAWG or joining forums like this one are trying to do the right thing. Bounce handling is difficult because bounce messages are like an episode of Whose Line Is It Anyway? - the

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 2020-06-05 10:09 a.m., Atro Tossavainen via mailop wrote: Furthermore, I explicitly indicated that it was the consensus that the GDPR makes it effectively impossible for them to do what you believe I said, which I did not. It has been discussed in so many M3AAWG meetings and between meetings,

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Tim, I believe *X-MC-User* and *List-ID* should help you identify those issues. Matt, if you think we're not handling a hard bounce properly, I'd like to get that worked out. Do please reach out off-list so we can troubleshoot the issue. Cool, Matthew delivery.mailchimp.com On Fri, Jun 5,

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Luke, thanks for the reply, > I appreciate the added perspective here. It sounded like you were > suggesting that ESPs do not suppress invalid email addresses. The evidence suggests this is the case. > But it sounds like you are aware that ESPs do suppress invalid email > addresses, but you

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Atro, I did not forget that we know each other. I remember meeting you and Pekka for the first time in Dublin back in 2015. I appreciate the added perspective here. It sounded like you were suggesting that ESPs do not suppress invalid email addresses. But it sounds like you are aware that ESPs

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 04/06/2020 20:08, Matthew Grove via mailop wrote: Of course, there is always a remote possibility that some misconfiguration on our side is causing us to reclassify your specific bounce message. You can compare our /X-MC-User/ header to verify that we are not suppressing the address at

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 07:48:45AM -0700, Luke wrote: > I cant tell if this the thing about ESPs not removing bounces is a joke or > not. All of the major ESPs have logic for adding bad addresses to > suppression lists. Of course their users can choose to unsuppress, but ESPs > certainly remove

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

This is wonderful. Thanks for the reply. On Thu, Jun 4, 2020, 6:55 PM Matt Palmer via mailop wrote: > On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 06:06:25PM -0700, Luke wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 07:48:45AM -0700, Luke via mailop wrote: > > > > I cant tell if this the thing about ESPs not removing

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 06:06:25PM -0700, Luke wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 07:48:45AM -0700, Luke via mailop wrote: > > > I cant tell if this the thing about ESPs not removing bounces is a joke > > or > > > not. All of the major ESPs have logic for adding bad addresses to > > > suppression

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

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Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 07:48:45AM -0700, Luke via mailop wrote: > I cant tell if this the thing about ESPs not removing bounces is a joke or > not. All of the major ESPs have logic for adding bad addresses to > suppression lists. [Citation needed] Your assertion does not match my data. - Matt

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 03:08:47PM -0400, Matthew Grove via mailop wrote: > Just to clarify, Mailchimp does remove addresses from specific lists when > we receive a hard bounce. Atro is correct; we do not suppress hard bounced > addresses globally across all of our users for a number of reasons.

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Hi, Just to clarify, Mailchimp does remove addresses from specific lists when we receive a hard bounce. Atro is correct; we do not suppress hard bounced addresses globally across all of our users for a number of reasons. Each user's list is self contained in that respect. In the past, allowing

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

p Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2020 1:44 PM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address On 6/4/20 9:10 AM, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > What is your mechanism for that trust? If the answer is “someone will > figure it out”

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 6/4/20 9:10 AM, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > What is your mechanism for that trust? If the answer is “someone will > figure it out” then there’s no point in even suggesting such a header. Well, I would disagree with that, actually. Much of this is automated on the recipient end at large

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

> On 4 Jun 2020, at 16:55, Robert L Mathews via mailop > wrote: > > On 6/4/20 2:50 AM, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: >> You do know that spammers run ESPs and consider themselves reputable, >> yes? How useful will the header be when they start putting it in even >> when the mail isn’t

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 6/4/20 2:50 AM, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > You do know that spammers run ESPs and consider themselves reputable, > yes? How useful will the header be when they start putting it in even > when the mail isn’t confirmed?  My point was that if a large ESP started doing this, *and* the ESP

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

I cant tell if this the thing about ESPs not removing bounces is a joke or not. All of the major ESPs have logic for adding bad addresses to suppression lists. Of course their users can choose to unsuppress, but ESPs certainly remove bounces. Seems like most people here should know this. Maybe I'm

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

> On 3 Jun 2020, at 16:59, Robert L Mathews via mailop > wrote: > > On 6/2/20 6:35 AM, Tim Bray via mailop wrote: >> Is there way I could force my email address to be double opt in? >> Like register with you, confirm my address, and then any of your >> customers who try to add me, I get a

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

> For me, it was noticing how, despite getting 550'd for an extended period of > time, Mailchimp just keeps hammering away at the address, never dropping it > from the list. That, too, is not the behaviour of a responsible ESP. As I keep saying, we would not have a business at all if any ESPs

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On Wed, Jun 03, 2020 at 12:38:31PM -0400, Bill Cole via mailop wrote: > On 2 Jun 2020, at 16:52, Oreva Akpolo via mailop wrote: > > I'm Oreva, a Deliverability Engineer at Mailchimp. There currently isn't > > a > > system to force double opt-in on recipients per email address. What we > > can > >

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 6/3/20 10:46 AM, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: > One problem is that spammers lie. If someone comes to an ESP and claims > that their list is 100% COI, the ESP either has to trust them or the ESP > needs to reconfirm. Right; in such a case, I would expect the ESP to *not* mark it as confirmed

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 6/3/20 08:59, Robert L Mathews via mailop wrote: If large ESPs who consider themselves reputable added a consistent header saying whether the subscription had been confirmed ("double opt in"), that could be used in combination with DKIM source verification to provide positive and negative

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 2 Jun 2020, at 16:52, Oreva Akpolo via mailop wrote: Hey Tom, I'm Oreva, a Deliverability Engineer at Mailchimp. There currently isn't a system to force double opt-in on recipients per email address. What we can recommend is to set up filters or folders, so that you're only seeing mail

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 6/2/20 6:35 AM, Tim Bray via mailop wrote: > Is there way I could force my email address to be double opt in? > Like register with you, confirm my address, and then any of your > customers who try to add me, I get a `please confirm` email. If large ESPs who consider themselves reputable

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 2020-06-02 at 22:58 +0100, Tim Bray via mailop wrote: > > I don't really believe I've been sat in people's dormant lists (at an > email service provider) for years and years. I think it is fresh > lists extracted from CRMs and webstores, but maybe several years of > old data. And maybe

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 02/06/2020 21:52, Oreva Akpolo via mailop wrote: Hey Tom, I'm Oreva, a Deliverability Engineer at Mailchimp. There currently isn't a system to force double opt-in on recipients per email address. What we can recommend is to set up filters or folders, so that you're only seeing mail from

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

HOLD THE PHONE!! Do we hear a ESP actually recommending that all their email gets sent to a junk folder .. hehehe.. But again, the best way for an email to support what you are suggesting, is if you are transparent in the MAIL FROM, so that 'Allow Sender I am subscribed to' would actually

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 2 Jun 2020, at 21:52, Oreva Akpolo via mailop wrote: > > I'm Oreva, a Deliverability Engineer at Mailchimp. There currently isn't a > system to force double opt-in on recipients per email address. What we can > recommend is to set up filters or folders, so that you're only seeing mail >

[mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Hey Tom, I'm Oreva, a Deliverability Engineer at Mailchimp. There currently isn't a system to force double opt-in on recipients per email address. What we can recommend is to set up filters or folders, so that you're only seeing mail from users you've actively subscribed to in your inbox. I hope

Re: [mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

On 2020/06/02 14:35, Tim Bray via mailop wrote: > My question to mailchimp et al: > > Is there way I could force my email address to be double opt in? Like > register with you, confirm my address, and then any of your customers who > try to add me, I get a `please confirm` email. This, but

[mailop] Force double opt in for marketing list companies per email address

Hi, So seems to be spam/ham day today.  I've just done 6 unsubscribes.  Orgs I have never heard of, or maybe an organization I once bought something from 10 years ago (or their sister company) I think people are trying to kick start their businesses in the UK by digging out all their old