Please do not reply to my comments. I think it's time to close this and
move on.
Ok, my personal summary on this topic:
1. The fact that so many people (including lurkers) responded to this
email suggests that it is a subject that's important to them - be it
personal, professional, or academic.
From: Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com
A contribution to a *community* would be to offer gratis advice on a
mailing list, ostensibly to help the community reach its objectives.
Nothing I see in this thread looks like a contribution to the mod_perl
community, sorry.
The mod_perl community is
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 6:44 AM, Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote:
From: Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com
A contribution to a *community* would be to offer gratis advice on a
mailing list, ostensibly to help the community reach its objectives.
Nothing I see in this thread looks
My 2 cents.
Based on daily traffic:
1 - 1000 unique sessions
shared hosting,
= CGI Perl (CGI.pm)
= Php
1000 - 5000 unique sessions (fun sites)
shared hosting (modperl is not available)
= CGI Perl + mod_rewrite (to cache dynamic contents)
= Php
daily traffic: 5,000 - 20,000 unique sessions
Message du 27/03/09 07:09
De : Phil Van
A : modperl@perl.apache.org
Copie à :
Objet : modperl or php? Re: decline and fall of modperl?
daily traffic: 100,000 - 500,000 unique sessions (medium to medium-large
sites)
= modperl in a cluster environment
me again: modperl as well
Hi,
daily traffic: 20,000 - 100,000 unique sessions (medium sites)
= Php + an efficient caching system
= modperl, but not based on Mason or such application toolkits
I don't agree: I had a website running with 20.000 visitors/day,
build with Mason (MasonX::Webapp), split into 180 frontend
From: David Ihnen
en the newer perl modules on cpan started to use OOP, and I guess this is
because OOP is better, even though under perl it usually
makes the programs run slower.
Perl's speed, even under oop, is good enough. OOP makes the libraries
easier to maintain and extend.
From: Chris Prather perig...@gmail.com
Perl is a funny animal. It doesn't have a formal support for interfaces,
but it suppports multiple class inheritance. It also has - for a very
long time now - support for closures, which I find very interesting (few
Java developers even heard of it).
From: David Ihnen dav...@norchemlab.com
Why it is bad that a language like PHP is more useful for more
programmers?
Because then they start thinking they're software engineers instead of
just programmers. They get credibility, without having earned it through
good engineering. They propagate
-
From: Joe Schaefer
To: David Ihnen ; Octavian Râsnita
Cc: modperl
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:20 PM
Subject: [OT] Advocacy (was Re: decline and fall of modperl?)
Could we PLEASE move this lovely conversation to the
advoc...@perl.apache.org mailing list? We have
Octavian Rasnita wrote:
It seems that Perl is beaten by this new atitude, and the fact that it
is a better language doesn't help too much.
Haven't we all learnt from Bush, that the best people don't always make
President?
If the program is hard enough protected, most users won't be able to get
Great to hear that! My experience, that programs written in application
frameworks usually take more memory and CPU resources to run, is based on
old versions. The new ones may have been improved very much in this area.
PV
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Rolf Schaufelberger r...@plusw.de wrote:
FWIW, I'm enjoying this diverting discussion and think it should stay
here. Clearly, its an organic outgrowth meeting a need of the other
business in this list.
On Fri, 2009-03-27 at 10:35 +0200, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
From: David Ihnen
en the newer perl modules on cpan started to
- Original Message
From: john edstrom edst...@teleport.com
To: Octavian Rasnita orasn...@gmail.com
Cc: modperl modperl@perl.apache.org
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:13:18 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
FWIW, I'm enjoying this diverting discussion and think
- Original Message
From: john edstrom edst...@teleport.com
To: Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 2:21:08 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
If you say so. I'll respect that, but I don't agree with it. I already
subscribe to about 30
From: Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com
Comparative analysis of programming languages has nothing whatsoever to
do with modperl, or even anything to do with the real needs of this
community
of users. It's simply an exercise in argumentation based on personal
experience alone by people who
- Original Message
From: Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com
To: modperl modperl@perl.apache.org
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:25:44 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
From: Joe Schaefer
Comparative analysis of programming languages has nothing whatsoever to
do
From: Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com
The original message that started this thread was:
One of our customers is doing a detailed review of a mason/modperl ERP
app
we've built for them since 2001. Prodded by some
buzzword-compliant consultants they are expressing concerns that the
- Original Message
From: Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com
To: modperl modperl@perl.apache.org
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:26:43 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
From: Joe Schaefer
The original message that started this thread was:
One of our
On Mar 27, 2009, at 5:08 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
- Original Message
From: Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com
To: modperl modperl@perl.apache.org
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:26:43 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
From: Joe Schaefer
The original message that started
- Original Message
From: David Stewart david.stew...@eviesays.com
To: modperl modperl@perl.apache.org
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 6:39:08 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
I'm not really sure why it wouldn't be a good idea to try and educate
consultants about
On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
That's called advocacy, and as I said before, there's a mailing list
set
up for that for people who actually want to *do* some of that
instead of
issue general gripes on a thread called decline and fall of
mod_perl.
I don't mean to
Foo JH wrote:
In the academia the general directive in choosing a language would be
something to this effect:
1. teach modern language concepts, such as OO
2. minimise the learning curve by way of something easy to teach, easy
to learn without having to figure out all the details of
From: David Ihnen dav...@norchemlab.com
They know it because everybody tell them so. Most web sites are done
in PHP, most job offer for web programmers ask for PHP experience...
Then they don't know, they just repeat what others say. So I guess all
we can do is repeat what we know from
On 25 Mar 2009, at 18:23, David Ihnen wrote:
They've also told me that they know that perl is harder to learn
than PHP.
What can I tell them? That it is not true?
Yes, but you may or may not be right. We all agree that coming into
perl is confusing - too much old data about how to do
On 26 Mar 2009, at 11:35, Simon Forster wrote:
And what is the proper way? I've futzed about in a number or
languages - including perl - but only at a very basic level with
perl. I've got some web stuff to do and thought that having a go
with perl may be a pleasant diversion. At the
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Simon Forster simon-li...@ldml.comwrote:
On 25 Mar 2009, at 18:23, David Ihnen wrote:
They've also told me that they know that perl is harder to learn than PHP.
What can I tell them? That it is not true?
Yes, but you may or may not be right. We all agree
hey
On 3/25/2009 11:24 PM, Foo JH wrote:
You probably have a feel why Perl isn't a strong choice given these
objectives.
hmm ... i'm not sure about your second point. it's a somewhat arbitrary
example, but look at a 'hello world' in several languages. perl is
definitely on the easy side to
On 26 Mar 2009, at 11:50, Mark Blackman wrote:
The older answer is something along the lines of Perl Best
Practice the O'Reilly
book by D. Conway and ideas behind it. See also http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/07/14/bestpractices.html
.
The newer answer is an emerging buzzword called Modern
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Simon Forster simon-li...@ldml.com wrote:
On 26 Mar 2009, at 11:50, Mark Blackman wrote:
The older answer is something along the lines of Perl Best Practice the
O'Reilly
book by D. Conway and ideas behind it. See also
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:55:45 -0400, john saylor jsay...@liaison-intl.com
wrote:
of course, once you get to TMTOWTDI, it's like teaching creative writing
And thus, the beauty of it. :)
--
ispy++
From: Rolf Banting
Foo JH wrote:
In the academia the general directive in choosing a language would be
something to this effect:
1. teach modern language concepts, such as OO
2. minimise the learning curve by way of something easy to teach, easy
to learn without having to figure
Foo JH wrote:
David Ihnen wrote:
I think you've got it right there. We've got to get perl taught in
schools. That means perl experts need to be in teaching. And I have a
suspicion that perl doesn't appeal to the pure computer scientist very
well - these are the people who invented hard
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.comwrote:
*From:* Rolf Banting rolf.b...@gmail.com
Foo JH wrote:
In the academia the general directive in choosing a language would be
something to this effect:
1. teach modern language concepts, such as OO
2. minimise
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Joel Bernstein j...@fysh.org wrote:
On 26 Mar 2009, at 13:21, Rolf Banting wrote:
Fair enough Simon. I would recommend you look at the Cookbook too - it has
recipes for everything from iterating through a hash to web automation.
http:/SNIP/perl/cookbook/
From: Walter Pienciak wpien...@thunderdome.ieee.org
I usually lurk on this list, but I could not disagree more with
this assertion that perl is somehow harder to learn.
This might be because you are thinking to the american or western european
market.
But think about those many programmers
From: Rolf Banting
Functions are first class citizens in Perl - so you get functional
programming built in. You don't in Java.
Even the newer perl modules on cpan started to use OOP, and I guess this is
because OOP is better, even though under perl it usually makes the programs run
From: Joel Bernstein j...@fysh.org
- It is the most easy to learn language even by the most stupid
programmers.
I'd rather it were optimised for competent programmers. Sorry, I just
don't see the value here. Stupid programmers are part of the problem.
I don't understand. What is the
Octavian Râsnita wrote:
*From:* Rolf Banting mailto:rolf.b...@gmail.com
Functions are first class citizens in Perl - so you get
functional programming built in. You don't in Java.
Even the newer perl modules on cpan started to use OOP, and I guess
this is because OOP is better, even
it.
Thanks!
From: David Ihnen dav...@norchemlab.com
To: Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com
Cc: modperl modperl@perl.apache.org
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:10:58 PM
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
Octavian Râsnita wrote:
From: Rolf
Banting
Rolf Banting wrote:
1. Perl supports more programming paradigms than Java.
Agreed. The problem is with perception. People identify Perl as a
procedural language, and strongly typed languages (ie C#, Java) as
modern languages enforcing modern concepts. We all know that's isn't
entirely true of
Octavian Râsnita wrote:
1. I don't know what it means that perl supports more paradigms than
Java, but I know that the Java / C# OOP style is usually considered
a much complete and better standard than one used by Perl.
Java / DotNet support interfaces, so the classes they
David Ihnen wrote:
I suppose we need more programmers than those programmers who are just
interested in coding? I never met a good programmer who wasn't
intrinsically interested in it.
They like to program, then they realise that being a programmer means
been strangled by middle management.
From: Mike Bourdon
The hidden message here is “the more available senior developers, the more
likely available
jobs”, an expanding talent pool will lead to an expanding job market.
I fully agree. What happends in the regions where there are extremely few perl
programmers, no matter if
Perrin Harkins wrote:
TicketMaster is Perl.
Ticketmaster switched their UK operation from MS technologies to mod_perl a
couple of years back too. (Brought it inline with the US side.)
There's a couple of biggies that haven't been mentioned...
BBC
YouPorn (although I don't think they use
Carl Johnstone wrote:
Perrin Harkins wrote:
TicketMaster is Perl.
Ticketmaster switched their UK operation from MS technologies to mod_perl a
couple of years back too. (Brought it inline with the US side.)
There's a couple of biggies that haven't been mentioned...
BBC
YouPorn (although I
Octavian Râşniţă wrote:
From: Mike Bourdon
The hidden message here is “the more available senior developers,
the more likely available
jobs”, an expanding talent pool will lead to an expanding job market.
I fully agree. What happends in the regions where there are extremely
few perl
Octavian Râşniţă wrote:
*From:* David Ihnen mailto:dav...@norchemlab.com
I tried to convince some programmers that Perl is better than
PHP, but without any success.
How could they know, if they have never used it? I was far less
convinced that PHP was a blight on the
David Ihnen wrote:
I think you've got it right there. We've got to get perl taught in
schools. That means perl experts need to be in teaching. And I have a
suspicion that perl doesn't appeal to the pure computer scientist very
well - these are the people who invented hard typed languages,
Alexandr Ciornii wrote:
PHP, C#, Java are much more prefered, because the programs created with them
can hide the source code much better, while this is not possible with Perl.
This is a big reason why the software companies that create custom programs
for their clients prefer to use those
, 23 Mar 2009 14:07:31 +0100
Subject: decline and fall of modperl?
Hi and sorry for the provocative title of my post :)
One of our customers is doing a detailed review of a mason/modperl ERP
app we've built for them since 2001. Prodded by some buzzword-compliant
consultants they are expressing
Marilyn Burgess schrieb:
From a fellow lurker to another, I would be interested in reading
your perspective.
- Marilyn
me too,
Axel
André Warnier wrote:
I would like to add that it seems ridiculously simple to decompile Java
classes.
Agreed. With the popularity of bytecode languages such as Java and .Net,
suddenly nobody talks about the ease of obtaining source code in the
flesh. As Andre mentioned, it's trivial to decompile
Perrin Harkins wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com
wrote:
...and in most parts of the
world it is hard to find competent perl programmers.
...The job
listings for Perl are strong. They're huge compared to those for
Ruby. Of course Java is
/mod_perl’s community and your future may depend on it.
--- On Mon, 3/23/09, Mike Bourdon perl_fin...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Mike Bourdon perl_fin...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: decline and fall of modperl?
To: Louis-David Mitterrand vindex+lists-modp...@apartia.org
Cc: modperl@perl.apache.org
Date
Mike Bourdon wrote:
In my humble opinion the perl community needs to embrace the concept
of self propagation. For the most part perl/oo perl/mod_perl
developers are self taught. Junior or mid level talent (a majority
of the talent pool) is passed over as not enough
In my humble opinion the perl community needs to embrace the concept
of self propagation. For the most part perl/oo perl/mod_perl
developers are self taught. Junior or mid level talent (a majority
of the talent pool) is passed over as not enough experience.
It is interesting
Hi and sorry for the provocative title of my post :)
One of our customers is doing a detailed review of a mason/modperl ERP
app we've built for them since 2001. Prodded by some buzzword-compliant
consultants they are expressing concerns that the app's underlying
technologies - perl, modperl and
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Louis-David Mitterrand
vindex+lists-modp...@apartia.org wrote:
One of our customers is doing a detailed review of a mason/modperl ERP
app we've built for them since 2001. Prodded by some buzzword-compliant
consultants they are expressing concerns that the app's
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Louis-David Mitterrand
vindex+lists-modp...@apartia.org wrote:
One of our customers is doing a detailed review of a mason/modperl ERP
app we've built for them since 2001. Prodded by some buzzword-compliant
consultants they are expressing concerns that the app's
On Monday, 2009-03-23 at 11:55:46 -0400, Perrin Harkins wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com wrote:
This is true. Less and less programmers use perl, and in most parts of the
world it is hard to find competent perl programmers.
Unless you have some
Louis-David Mitterrand wrote:
Hi and sorry for the provocative title of my post :)
What better way to get a response?
What you have is better than what you don't, so sticking with a tech you
already have is often the most pragmatic path.
I agree with the others, in that if the company
From: David Ihnen dav...@norchemlab.com
The new version of perl in the works is going to change that. I fully
expect perl to become far more interesting to the programming community
with that upgrade. Perl will move from the old one to the latest one, and
then it WILL be a buzzword again.
It amazes me that this entire thread neglects to mention PHP. Granted,
it started with a discussion about web frameworks, for which PHP does
not have a strong footing, unless of course you count Drupal and
Wordpress and the like among such frameworks. But still, PHP cannot
and should not
On Monday, 2009-03-23 at 10:54:59 -0700, Byrne Reese wrote:
It amazes me that this entire thread neglects to mention PHP.
OK, I'll add PHP...
Figures from the German freelancer market, Gulp (www.gulp.de):
CVs (called profiles, a total of 60823 are available) with:
Perl 5470
Ruby 234
Java
Alright, I don't want to quibble, but I would question any conclusions
you can draw from the numbers based upon the sole fact that it is
based upon how developer self-identify.
I know that Wordpress and Drupal freelancers do not position
themselves as PHP programmers, but rather WordPress
From: Byrne Reese by...@majordojo.comIt amazes me that this entire
thread neglects to mention PHP. Granted,
it started with a discussion about web frameworks, for which PHP does not
have a strong footing, unless of course you count Drupal and Wordpress
and the like among such frameworks. But
Hire Dave Rolsky (who wrote the Mason book, and maintains HTML-Mason),
he's apparently looking for work:
http://blog.urth.org/2009/03/need-a-programmer.html
You'll be hard pressed to find anyone more competent, but he might want
to re-implement the whole system, you never know...
Adam
The problem is that there are no very many big sites that use perl
either.
I knew that Amazon used Perl, than tried to use Java, than... I
don't know what they use now.
Google uses Python, Yahoo uses PHP, Microsoft probably uses DotNet
and Sun probably uses Java.
I will add:
* LiveJournal
Alright, I don't want to quibble, but I would question any conclusions
you can draw from the numbers based upon the sole fact that it is
based upon how developer self-identify.
Every language has it's own sub-languages or frameworks that they identify
themselves as. So I suspect the statistics
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com wrote:
I knew that Amazon used Perl, than tried to use Java, than... I don't know
what they use now.
Please stop with the FUD! Amazon uses Perl for their front-end
development. Check their job ads.
Google uses Python,
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:16:59 -0400, Byrne Reese by...@majordojo.com
wrote:
I will add:
* LiveJournal
* TypePad
* Vox
* Popular MT sites like:
- Huffington Post
- Gothamist
- Talking Points Memo
- many, many, many more of course
Let's not forget ticketmaster... of which many
Hi.
It possible to encrypt perl sources with same safety as with PHP -
with possibility of source decryption. But Perl developers are in
general more advanced than PHP developers so they know how to decrypt
it, in contrast to PHP developers that do not know that encrypted PHP
sources can easily
I believe Craigslist and Slashdot are both entirely done in perl/mod_perl.
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Dan Stephenson ispyhuman...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:16:59 -0400, Byrne Reese by...@majordojo.com
wrote:
I will add:
* LiveJournal
* TypePad
* Vox
* Popular MT
From: Byrne Reese by...@majordojo.com
The problem is that there are no very many big sites that use perl
either.
I knew that Amazon used Perl, than tried to use Java, than... I don't
know what they use now.
Google uses Python, Yahoo uses PHP, Microsoft probably uses DotNet and
Sun probably
From: Alexandr Ciornii alexcho...@gmail.com
Hi.
It possible to encrypt perl sources with same safety as with PHP -
with possibility of source decryption. But Perl developers are in
general more advanced than PHP developers so they know how to decrypt
it, in contrast to PHP developers that do
From: Perrin Harkins per...@elem.com
The original poster asked for help winning a contract that he wants to
use Perl for. So far, you're not contributing.
- Perrin
I presented more advantages of perl, in one of my previous message so I
contributed, but I don't like to hear that Perl is
At 11:34 PM +0200 3/23/09, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
From: Byrne Reese by...@majordojo.com
The problem is that there are no very many big sites that use perl either.
I knew that Amazon used Perl, than tried to
use Java, than... I don't know what they use
now.
Google uses Python, Yahoo uses
Do you know other sites that don't use Movable Type? :-)
Not as extensively. :)
But even if we talk about Movable Type... I've seen that WordPress
is known much better than MovableType. Gues why. MovableType has
much more features than WordPress, however WordPress is better
known. Maybe
Byrne Reese wrote:
The problem is that there are no very many big sites that use perl
either.
I knew that Amazon used Perl, than tried to use Java, than... I don't
know what they use now.
Google uses Python, Yahoo uses PHP, Microsoft probably uses DotNet
and Sun probably uses Java.
I will
Alexandr Ciornii wrote:
Hi.
It possible to encrypt perl sources with same safety as with PHP -
with possibility of source decryption. But Perl developers are in
general more advanced than PHP developers so they know how to decrypt
it, in contrast to PHP developers that do not know that
Hi.
Filter::Crypto on CPAN. It even works with PAR. And it is free.
2009/3/23 Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com:
Can I encrypt some .pm modules in such a way that they couldn't be decrypted
easier than the PHP files encrypted by Zend Encoder?
If yes, please tell us how, because it would be
Perrin Harkins wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Octavian Râsnita orasn...@gmail.com wrote:
...and in most parts of the
world it is hard to find competent perl programmers.
...The job
listings for Perl are strong. They're huge compared to those for
Ruby. Of course Java is massively
...@apartia.orgvindex%2blists-modp...@apartia.org
Subject: decline and fall of modperl?
To: modperl@perl.apache.org
Date: Monday, March 23, 2009, 6:07 AM
-Inline Attachment Follows-
Hi and sorry for the provocative title of my post :)
One of our customers is doing a detailed review
On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:26:10 -0400, Mike Bourdon perl_fin...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I would be more than happy to share my insights as it relates to the
job / candidate market conditions.
If there are enough affirmative replies I will in the near future post
a more detailed dissertation.
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