I see Wall St is another 2.6% up on the morning alone. That's about 17% so
far this year, right? And on its way to gaining a full thousand in about a
month. Either we're talking tulips, or we're talking something brand new.
If memory serves, it was government action that eventually brought
Jim Devine wrote:
As for the "large chunk of folks who have marched in anti-war marches for
decades" before deciding that imperialism was great
Don't forget Bill Clinton's letter about avoiding the military - he was
worried about his future political viability. I think we're seeing that
again
I wonder if the members of the youth branch of DSA are joining the armed
forces in droves, to contribute to the war effort.
Max Sawicky has already pronounced that to be a silly critique! Why should
the policymakers and pundits of the future be asked to set aside their
career path to take
No, you're no "social fascist," Max. As long as I'm around, I'm going to
fight the Manichean attitude expressed by Eldridge Cleaver that "if you're
not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
. . .
I was not indulging in self-pity, at least not in this post. My reference
was not
I wonder if the members of the youth branch of DSA are joining the armed
forces in droves, to contribute to the war effort.
Jim Devine
I don't think they take people with prostate conditions.
Louis Proyect
(http://www.panix.com/~lnp3/marxism.html)
Louis, I think you've put your
One more before bedtime:
First, I don't think the DSA statement was all that great, though I'd
encourage them to pursue the line they are taking.
. . .
For me, one line is particularly telling:
[...] To really protect citizens and refugees, realistically and
regrettably we will have to put
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:30:22 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:YUGOSLAVIA: BOMBING THE BABY WITH THE BATHWATER
An editorial by Veran Matic, a
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:47:44 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Understanding the War in Kosovo in the Fourth Week
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:08:48 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:MOSCOW STANDS BY MILOSEVIC
Reuters
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:33:08 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:BELGRADE 17-NGO APPEAL
http://www.dds.nl/~pressnow/extra/ngoappeal.html
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:33:21 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:NATO GETTING COSY WITH RAGTAG GUERRILLA FORCE
The National Post
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:32:57 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:MILITARY ANALYSTS SAY NATO DEATHS COULD TOP 5,000 IN GROUND WAR
The National
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:32:34 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:MISSILE STRIKES POLLUTE DANUBE
The Globe and Mail
Bombing is not immoral.
The burden of proof is on you to show this. Lets have some reasons. I take it as
a starting point (i.e.self-evident) that peace is everywhere and always
preferable to war.
People who send bombers can be.
Anybody can be immoral. What theory of morality are you
G'day,
Peter Brain's 'Global Meltdown', from an Australian economic forecaster who
enjoys a Krugmanesque reputation here on account of he picked the Asia
crisis in advance (and with more of a nod to exogenous forces than Krugman
at that), sounds pretty interesting.
For Brain, the US's success
The DJI went up and the Nasdaq went down 6% - Oz's markets have now taken a
hot bath - especially in high-tech stocks (at least THEY read The
Australian). Diaper time for all those teenage day-traders? Cash time
amongst the fund managers? What say you, noble Penners?
Rob.
Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/99 05:15PM
Nathan Newman wrote:
I am starting to find pen-l as intellectually narrow as freerepublic.com
(with pretty damn similar rhetoric) in the complete refusal to respectfully
engage with those you disagree with.
(((
Max Sawicky wrote:
In my romantic senility I'm maturing to the left.
We welcome you Max. Now if you could only shake your
infatuation with ordnance.
Doug
Maybe I should look forward to welcoming you.
mbs
"Ballots or bullets."
-- Malcolm X
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--_=_NextPart_000_01BE8B3B.1F9C08E0
BLS DAILY REPORT, THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 1999
RELEASED TODAY: Regional and state unemployment rates remained relatively
At 12:34 AM 4/20/99 -0700, Max Sawicky wrote:
I speculate that the Administration/Nato are of two minds about the bombing.
One mind holds that the bombing and news of atrocities will prepare the
public to accept a full-scale invasion. This makes some political sense,
but it is craven and
Bombing is not immoral.
The burden of proof is on you to show this. Lets have some
reasons. I take it as a starting point (i.e.self-evident) that
peace is everywhere and always preferable to war.
I've acknowledged that those who command the bombers are not
acting out of moral precepts.
But that is really a bad news. Since military and political
egos are at stake and few "reality checks" exist - the current
course of action will escalate until a major disaster brings them
into a halt. That means that your conclusion
So sure, bombing isn't helping Kosovars. But at this
Brussels, the alliance's spokesman Jamie Shea noted that the
Has anybody got the bio on this spook? All I'm going on is elocution. But
I'd say off-hand, he's a classically trained thespian. At least with Ronald
Reagan, we KNEW he was an actor all along.
regards,
Tom Walker
I wrote: I wonder if the members of the youth branch of DSA are joining
the armed forces in droves, to contribute to the war effort.
Doug answers: Max Sawicky has already pronounced that to be a silly
critique! Why should the policy makers and pundits of the future be asked
to set aside their
"Another concern is that the Republicans will successfully elect a new
national team in this country next year, partly by playing off against
the
perceived failure of the Democratic administration's Kosovo policy. In
this,
they will follow the lead of Eisenhower, who successfully argued in 1952
Rob Schaap wrote:
The DJI went up and the Nasdaq went down 6% - Oz's markets have now taken a
hot bath - especially in high-tech stocks (at least THEY read The
Australian). Diaper time for all those teenage day-traders? Cash time
amongst the fund managers? What say you, noble Penners?
Rob,
I wrote ... I don't read Stalin's third period of "ultra-leftism" as
really being leftist (whatever that means). Rather than using the
simplistic "left" vs. "right" political spectrum, I would see that period
as a matter of the tightening of bureaucratic control of the COMINTERN . . .
Max
Max Sawicky wrote:
First: Who are we? Only someone from deep inside the imperium, with a
strong sense of _belonging_ in it and to it, could pen such a line.
Au contraire, usage of "we" is pretty common. One might say that only
someone extremely alienated would be irked by it.
The common
Max wrote:
Uh, the analogy can be made just as well to
Serbia vis a vis Kosovo with the shoe on the other
foot. After all, Serbia is protecting its own national
minority against the majority Albanians in Kosmet,
the basis for His Excellency's Yugoslavia-destroying
speech at Kosovo Polje on
At 02:01 PM 4/20/99 -0400, Louis wrote:
In WWII, we bombed Dresden which had no military value. This atrocity was
dramatized in Vonnegut's "Slaugherhouse Five". We firebombed Tokyo to
spread terror among the Japanese civilian population. We then topped that
off by dropping A-Bombs on Hiroshima
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/20/99 01:23PM
BTW, even though I am sometimes viewed as some
kind of "voice of reason" (except when I'm not, :-)) I just
lost it in my Principles of Economics classes today and
ended up screaming at the top of my lungs and nearly
breaking
[Aside from the unfortunate Spartacist boilerplate, this is a fine history
of the U.S. use of air power, back from the days when Jan Norden was
editing Workers Vanguard. Its news hook is the Gulf War, but the message is
timeless. - Doug]
THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF U.S. TERROR BOMBING
How Washington
Louis writes: Serbia is a small, underdeveloped country with a population
of 10 million or so. The US and Nazi Germany were powerful imperialist
nations bent on conquest. They use the pretext of defending "captive
nations" in order to extend their imperial control. I think a better way of
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/20/99 01:23PM
I don't have Nathan's email address, but I
would urge Michael P. to express to Nathan that
at least some of us regret his departure, despite
our disagreements. Heck, if all the pro-bombing
people leave the list, I'll have to
Max,
I'm getting on your case again about terminology.
The group that I think that you are worried about (I sure
as hell am) is the Albanian Kosovars. Repeat after me,
ALBANIAN KOSOVARS. I have just addressed the fact
that "Muslims" is a too narrow term. However, "Kosovars"
includes the
Louis,
That was me, Barkley, not Max.
I agree that His Excellency is no Hitler. He is not
out to conquer the world, and so far has not committed
genocide or called for it, despite some pretty ugly stuff.
But I don't think the Nicaragua/Miskito example is
very good either. Were
I'll leave the abstract construction to others with the
expertise
and inclination. I'd rather simplify: HOW TO PROTECT INNOCENT
MUSLIMS IN KOSOVA? That's my preferred moral question of the
day.
Acceptance of Serbian government's peace plan and offer of
ceasefire.
U.N.and/or E.U.
On Tuesday, April 20, 1999 at 16:31:49 (-0400) Max Sawicky writes:
[Barkley?:]
Acceptance of Serbian government's peace plan and offer of
ceasefire.
U.N.and/or E.U. monitoring team to make sure the plan is being
implemented and enforced. What other options are there?
We've been there before.
Soviet Foreign Minister V. M. Molotov:
"The principle of so-called equal opportunity has become a favorite
topic of late. What, it is argued, could be better than this
principle, which would establish equal opportunity for all states
without discrimination?...
[Take] Rumania, enfeebled
At 04:31 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
Yes it does by modus todus. If P then Q. ~P so ~ Q. If bombing
leads to
the destruction of Kosovo then not bombing will lead to not
destroying
Kosovo.
Modus tollens, I presume which takes the form if p then q, not q, therefore
not p. It is clear form
A forward.
Charles Brown
(
In a message dated 4/20/99 3:23:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Subj: (abolition-usa) Fwd: 'Let Civility Prevail': an appeal from
Belgrade
Date: 4/20/99 3:23:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time
US winks at sanctions, imports from
BARC
By Dinesh C Sharma
The Times of India News Service
MUMBAI: Are US sanctions a one-way street? It would seem
so,
with the US importing high-tech products from some of the
very
--
The Progressive Response 19 April 1999 Vol. 3, No. 14
Editor: Tom Barry
--
The Progressive Response is a publication of Foreign
Jim to Max:
... And anyone who thinks they will advance in the U.S. power elite by
enlisting in the Democratic Socialists of America, pro-war or not, is too
dumb to be a concern to anyone.
And here's a nasty and sarcastic crack that I held back because I didn't
want to offend Nathan: maybe the
Max Sawicky wrote:
In my romantic senility I'm maturing to the left.
We welcome you Max. Now if you could only shake your
infatuation with ordnance.
Doug
Maybe I should look forward to welcoming you.
mbs
"Ballots or bullets."
-- Malcolm X
Malcolm X didn't invite the US government
Jim wrote:
The problem with this formulation is that the Sandinistas, who ruled
Nicaragua at the time, were more-or-less "good guys" (despite their
treatment of the Miskitos). Milosevic is not.
I agree that Milosevic is not a 'good guy,' but anti-imperialism doesn't
mean defending 'good guys' (=
Sam wrote:
The National Post (Canada's new Connie Black propaganda tool) had an
article today that stated that George Soros and his Open Society
operation are funding the KLA. I guess the big boys just want be sure
that the KLA will act like local gendarmes for imperialism. Another
reason not to
At 03:15 PM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
The paradox of our time in history is that:
We have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider
freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we spend more, but have less; we buy
more, but enjoy it less.
etc.
I think a lot of this can be summed up by
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
At 04:31 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
Yes it does by modus todus. If P then Q. ~P so ~ Q. If bombing
leads to
the destruction of Kosovo then not bombing will lead to not
destroying
Kosovo.
Modus tollens, I presume which takes the form if p then q, not q,
NATO bombings of petrochemical plants such as the ones described below
should be considered chemical warfare and hence *war crime* and *crime
against humanity*, damaging not only economic infrastructure of Yugoslavia
but directly harming Yugo civilians and those in surrounding countries.
Also,
Michael "Not-Mike" Hoover posted:
Soviet Foreign Minister V. M. Molotov:
"The principle of so-called equal opportunity has become a favorite
topic of late. What, it is argued, could be better than this
principle, which would establish equal opportunity for all states
without discrimination?...
I have a former student from 20 years ago who wants to go back to school
to finish an undergraduate degree where he can study alternative forms
of economic organization. I don't think that his is necessarily into
Marx, but more into co-ops and the like. Any suggestions for an
undergraduate
This just in (via Louis Godena). Beware of health nuts. (What's next?
Bombing Cuban cigar factories in the name of 'liberating' the oppressed
queer-Cuban nation?)
Yoshie
* The end result of tonight's bombing of my city (11:15 p.m., April
19): one dead, 15 wounded. All civilians of
Doug wrote:
Rob, these things take time. A bull market of over 16 years won't turn into
a bear overnight, especially as long as interest rates behave.
How will a prolonged war against Yugoslavia (and a lesser one against Iraq)
affect interest rates?
Yoshie
Take a look at Abu Nasr's post below (to marxism-international) and see the
effects of NATO's war against Yugoslavia upon the internal politics of
Russia. Without the Russian support and with the coming NATO oil embargo,
the Yugoslavs may either be *slaughtered* en masse (since there are not
I just read a post from the TiM (Truth in Media ) website. The fellow who runs
it went over to Belgrade just recently to report the war firsthand. He noted
that there was a huge lineup at one place in Belgrade. He asked someone if they
were lining up for food. No, cigarettes, the fellow said. The
I read an interesting article by Lester Thurow in a recent Journal of
Post Keynesian Economics. He gives some interesting data without
sources and without years. Can anyone {Doug?} verify the statement?
Thurow, Lester. 1998. "Wage Dispersion: 'Who Done It?':" Journal of Post
Keynesian
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--06A6643443AEDEA7DA05D837
As I predicted, NATO is bombing media targets now but without
giving any ludicrous justifications
as they had done previously. Originally NATO floated an Orwellian
balloon. They were bombing Serb media in order
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Rob, these things take time. A bull market of over 16 years won't turn into
a bear overnight, especially as long as interest rates behave.
How will a prolonged war against Yugoslavia (and a lesser one against Iraq)
affect interest rates?
The line from Wall Street is
Wojtek is quite right there is no such valid form as P ) Q therefore ~P ) ~Q.
The form is invalid as
Wojtek shows. I think that Max's form should be called modus turdus. Perhaps
Max meant not
modus tollens but the transposed equivalent ~Q ) ~P. If Kosovo is not destroyed
then there is not
Jim Devine wrote:
I think a lot of this can be summed up by saying that we get a lot more in
terms of commodified products -- the kind of stuff that's counted in Gross
Domestic Product because it's bought and sold -- but we're not doing well
in terms of non-commodities.
I agree 100%. So far no
--_-1287465497==_ma
Lou wrote:
Over on the Trotsky newsgroup, somebody just posted something
about Greek troops refusing orders.
* http://www.serbia-info.com/news/military/index.html
Greek army won't fight for US interests
April 19, 1999
Thesalonika against NATO
Max:
I haven't seen anyone put forth the "social fascism" thesis
(i.e., the view that the folks immediately to the right of us on
the political spectrum are as bad as or worse than the fascists
or Nazis),
See most any post (other than reprints from the media) from
Louis, Carroll, Yoshie, Valis,
At 05:42 PM 4/20/99 -0400, Louis wrote:Congratulations, Michael
[Tomasky], you've become the Max Shachtman of the 1990s!
For those who don't know, Max Shachtman was a follower and friend of Leon
Trotsky's who broke with the latter when the USSR invaded Finland in 1940
and Trotsky defended that
I sent a copy of my Smedley Butler post to Michael Tomasky at New York
Magazine. (www.newyorkmag.com) He is a left-liberal who backed the war in
his latest column in the magazine devoted to questions about where to get
the best banana split in NYC or how to meet your perfect significant other.
I
Max,
I've been on your case about this before, but don't
you think that we can get this straight, please? Those
who are being attacked, displaced, cleansed, etc.
in Kosovo-Metohija, are Albanian Kosovars. Many of
them are NOT Muslims, with some being Catholics
(like that well known
I don't know if the anti-warriors were grossly unfair to Nathan or not;
it's hard for me to judge, being too close to the issue to have
perspective. But I know that when I criticize anyone's opinions, I try to
criticize them idea by idea, attacking the words, not the person. On the
other hand, I
Max,
I've been on your case about this before, but don't
you think that we can get this straight, please? Those
who are being attacked, displaced, cleansed, etc.
in Kosovo-Metohija, are Albanian Kosovars. Many of
them are NOT Muslims, with some being Catholics
(like that well known
The more pertinent question for us is what should we do? To me
the greater human emergency is the Muslims, not the Serbs.
Muslims are suffering more in aggregate and individually than
Serbs. My starting point and priority is how to effect the
rescue of Muslims. I further think that
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
name="nsmail44.TMP"
filename="nsmail44.TMP"
Return-path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Envelope-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by pop.uniserve.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #4)
for jmusselm_rpa-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:29:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id:
Max:
This is total bullshit, as some informed anti-bombers have
attested. Since Louis didn't answer, I'll throw his question to
you: if no independent journalists are permitted to investigate
atrocities in Kosova, and since both refugees and Serbs are
biased, from what source would you accept
I don't have Nathan's email address, but I
would urge Michael P. to express to Nathan that
at least some of us regret his departure, despite
our disagreements. Heck, if all the pro-bombing
people leave the list, I'll have to make their arguments
for them, even though I oppose the bombing,
I got tired of seeing my name in subject lines, so I changed the
title.
Max ripostes: Silly shit indeed. . . .
That's assuming that the critics of the US/NATO war against
Serbia all side with Serbian ethnic chauvinism, an assumption
I've criticized again and
again. Max, have you ever read
At 11:51 AM 4/20/99 -0400, Tom Lehman wrote:
"Another concern is that the Republicans will successfully elect a new
national team in this country next year, partly by playing off against
the
perceived failure of the Democratic administration's Kosovo policy. In
this,
they will follow the lead of
I agree with Rob all the way. I think that this list, as well as a few related
lists, have done wonderful work in getting the word out about the war. I wish I
could find information as valuable from the corporate media.
My wish would be that the 380 subscribers that merely lurk would
The "progressives' war" Nothing shows how outdated our concepts of "left"
and "right" are more than the confusing politics behind NATO's war in
Yugoslavia.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
BY JOE CONASON
April 20, 1999 | For those of us who grew up during the Vietnam war and its
ideological
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--_=_NextPart_000_01BE8B33.1446B300
BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, APRIL 19, 1999
The unemployment rate was relatively stable throughout much of the United
AP Headlines
Monday April 19 12:48 PM ET
U.S. Jets Hit Iraqi Targets
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - U.S. fighter planes attacked Iraqi defense sites in
northern Iraq today after being targeted by Iraqi
radar, U.S. officials said.
It was the second confrontation in the northern no-fly zone in
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:35:28 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:FALLOUT FEARED FROM URANIUM SHELLS
The Province
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:15:33 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:IN SERBIA, ORDINARY PEOPLE FEEL SUFFERING AND AGONY OF WAR
Max Sawicky wrote:
In my romantic senility I'm maturing to the left.
We welcome you Max. Now if you could only shake your infatuation with ordnance.
Doug
Max Sawicky wrote:
And anyone who thinks they will advance in the U.S. power elite by
enlisting in the Democratic Socialists of America, pro-war or not, is too
dumb to be a concern to anyone.
Max,
They could always serve their "socialist in my romantic youth" time in
DSA,
then have second
83 matches
Mail list logo
