Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 11/02/17 08:20, Tomas Straupis wrote: What was the reason NOT to use vector tiles? As that would solve most of the problems discussed in this thread. They didn't exist in a usable form at the time (I think), and most deployments are WebGL-based ("not a newish browser on a newish computer?

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

What was the reason NOT to use vector tiles? As that would solve most of the problems discussed in this thread. -- Tomas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 01.11.17 19:15, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: On 2017-11-01 at 14:28:12 +0100, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: There is a code for the Lingua Latina (Latin language) in the ISO 639-1, which is used at the OSM. It is "la" [1]. It is an ancient language so modern political controversies would not be

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

2017-11-01 19:15 GMT+01:00 Elena ``of Valhalla'' : > > It may be a good neutral language between speakers of e.g. French and > German not even, as French is a romance language with very strong latin influence, while German only has had some influence. Cheers, Martin

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On Wed, Nov 01, 2017 at 01:58:32PM +, Andy Townsend wrote: > The slightly more serious point that I was trying to make was that one map > style can't do everything - if you want to see latin (script, not language) > names there are options available for you to do that right now.  I quite >

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 2017-11-01 at 14:28:12 +0100, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: > There is a code for the Lingua Latina (Latin language) in the ISO 639-1, > which is used at the OSM. It is "la" [1]. It is an ancient language so > modern political controversies would not be reflected on it. > [...] This is the point

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

W dniu 01.11.2017 o 14:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev pisze: A would-be future vector map, probably, is not a a good solution, as it does not use the principle of precalculation. The Latin language has been used for centuries in science (including geography and cartography). Its popularity is growing

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 01/11/2017 13:43, Pierre Béland wrote: Nice, I often had problems while editing or validating in countries with non latin alphabet. Will this be automaticly overlayed to the map based on your language option ? I was being facetious of course - it's just the "Transport" map as seen at

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

W dniu 01.11.2017 o 14:36, Andy Townsend pisze: On 01/11/2017 13:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: Still, the OSM map remains unusable on the global scale. For instance, I read an article about the new railroad North-South. I wanted to see it on the OSM map but I could not even find Iran on the

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Nice, I often had problems while editing or validating in countries with non latin alphabet. Will this be automaticly overlayed to the map based on your language option ?   Pierre Le mercredi 1 novembre 2017 09:38:15 HAE, Andy Townsend a écrit : On 01/11/2017

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 01/11/2017 13:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: Still, the OSM map remains unusable on the global scale. For instance, I read an article about the new railroad North-South. I wanted to see it on the OSM map but I could not even find Iran on the map. Works for me:

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 22.10.17 03:22, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 24 September 2017 at 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote: I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in the Default map on openstreetmap.org. Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion. It

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 24 September 2017 at 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in > the Default map on openstreetmap.org. Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion. It seems that the current choice, rendering

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

+1 Until there is a (vector) map that allows you to change the preferred language dynamically or match against a priority list of languages from the user, the current principle of local language = display language is simply the best option. On 2017년 09월 26일 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 26.09.17 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we could send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] and would make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn away as soon as they get to know about

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

sent from a phone > On 26. Sep 2017, at 23:58, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > Wherever I go in the world, I try to make some improvements to OSM. Am > I then a local mapper? In Jakarta, Doha, Cairo, Larnaca, Istanbul, or > Warsaw? IMHO you are a local mapper in places

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 25 September 2017 at 07:14, Jo wrote: > The purpose of the default rendering is to give feedback to mappers. I'd love to see some stats on how many people visit that map, and their reasons. Fancy a wager on the percentage that are mappers? What about people who have no

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

W dniu 26.09.2017 o 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze: for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we could send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] and would make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn away as soon as they get to know

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we could send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] and would make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn away as soon as they get to know about it. Cheers, Martin [1] sometimes you already can

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

2017-09-26 6:00 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev : > But the Latin language does exist, and its popularity is growing [1]. > see, they also mention Greek ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

>That sounds like an argument against any incremental improvement ever imho: the risk Identification is an important design step. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_management ] And reducing risks is another step. 2017-09-25 16:34 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Alvarez : > >

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 26.09.17 01:30, John F. Eldredge wrote: People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the Latin language. Certainly, the Latin alphabet is more known as it is used in many modern languages. But the Latin language does exist, and its popularity is growing [1].

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

OSMAND+ already uses a vector-based system to render OSM-data-based maps, and has been doing so for some time. So, the technology already exists. On September 25, 2017 6:22:59 AM Richard Fairhurst wrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: I'd invest the available brainpower in

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the Latin language. On September 25, 2017 8:56:04 AM Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

W dniu 25.09.2017 o 13:15, Maarten Deen pisze: Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of selecting layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable it), I was more thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all language overlays. No idea if this is currently

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 25.09.17 16:19, Andy Townsend wrote: On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g.

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

> El 25 sept 2017, a las 10:54, Imre Samu escribió:. > > What about the other alternatives? > > for example: > - just adding ALL (official[1]) dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and > keeping the current design for Z9-Z19 > > so there will be (z0-z8) > - local +

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Mi ankaŭ proponas ke ni uzos esperanto! :-) 2017-09-25 16:19 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend : > On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: > >> >> If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? >> >> Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto. There are a few Esperanto >

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

And now we're talking about years of work. The original post to this thread already said making multiple versions is technically hard and out of scope. > El 25 sept 2017, a las 07:39, James escribió: > > That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote: If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

>Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector >tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from >now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one >line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to. What about the other alternatives?

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev >: The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of science, and it remains the language of scientific

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Hi, On 25.09.2017 13:48, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one > line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to. Yes. Don't. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Frederik Ramm wrote: >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. > > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway. > >

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On Monday 25 September 2017, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve > > this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. > > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway. > > But that needs to be a separate project

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Frederik Ramm wrote: > I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve > this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway. But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of selecting layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable it), I was more thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all language overlays. No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers. Maarten On

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 25-Sep-17 07:49 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote: Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony; indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can read. Which, I assume, everyone does. Yes, of course - we

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev : > The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of science, > and it remains the language of scientific classification. For example, > Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin. > Ancient Greek

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

2017-09-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Jo : > 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in > existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is > not a practical endeavour. > maybe there are that many languages in the world, but there

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Vector based rendering is just around the corner, I keep hearing. 2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 James : > That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG > itself > > On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo" wrote: > >> 1000 - 7000 extra

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG itself On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo" wrote: > 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in > existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is >

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

I talked at a conference to a man from UK who, as I understood, participates in the hardware work on the OSM servers. I was told that multiple layers require too much additional work to be handled by volunteers and also additional hardware That it is not feasible with the current state of

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is not a practical endeavour. 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James : > I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

For the default map having local names everywhere is a strong statement. The current status is fine (where scripts for the language are supported by the fonts used in rendering). Having transliterated / localized versions should only be an optional, if ressources allow for it. Mixed versions

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary. The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony; > indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can > read. Which, I assume, everyone does. Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

2017-09-25 9:37 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm : > ideally I > want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;) > > > +1. And ideally I'd want a map that not only shows cities or countries with transliterated names where needed, but everything (especially POIs like

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Christoph, On 25.09.2017 10:55, Christoph Hormann wrote: >> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from >> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names; >> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them >> ;) > > While i

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from > Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names; > ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them > ;) While i understand this view

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Hi, On 24.09.2017 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving > preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local > language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a > pragmatic point of view I can also see

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

> > And vice versa: I always wonder how usable a map in Latin alphabet is for > Chinese or Russian speakers. Cannot speak for Chinese, but in Russia, Latin alphabet was taught at the very early age in school. I think that drawing a map with local names in Latin font should not cause too many

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

On 2017-09-24 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote: Hi all, I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in the Default map on openstreetmap.org. This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name'

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

The purpose of the default rendering is to give feedback to mappers. Preferably local mappers, so having the map rendered in local languages shouldn't be a problem. If you want to use OSM data as a tourist use OsmAND or MAPS.ME and set a language of your choice. If other projects need tiles for

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

my 2 cents: having a 2 layers map, one with local languages rendered, the second with english ones when present as first choice, then local when not Il 25 set 2017 7:14 AM, "Yves" ha scritto: > If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast > audience,

Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast audience, I would understand double labeling in English. That not the primary purpose, though. Yves Le 24 septembre 2017 23:01:00 GMT+02:00, Matthijs Melissen a écrit : >Hi all, > >I would like

[OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

Hi all, I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in the Default map on openstreetmap.org. This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag). For example, we have a label 北京市 for