Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Resending from my personal email address, see below. > On Nov 26, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Martijn van Exel > wrote: > > Hi all, > > This is to inform you that the OSMF board did receive a formal request last > week to appeal the DWG decision referred to in this thread. > We are gathering

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Congratulations to Ukraine celebrating the Day of Dignity. You HAVE a strong backbone! This thread is depleated. Bye ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

21. Nov 2018 15:17 by tomasstrau...@gmail.com : > But I see no objective reasons why this should be the case in the > data. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule  

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

2018-11-21, tr, 16:04 Mateusz Konieczny rašė: > Taken together it means that Crimea (territory occupied by Russia) should be > marked > as de facto within Russia. On OSM-Carto map - it could be so. But I see no objective reasons why this should be the case in the data. Data could represent

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

20. Nov 2018 07:15 by tomasstrau...@gmail.com : > Hello > > I think this needs more attention and should not be silently buried > in archives. > > OSMF/DWG has sided with Moscow to recognise illegal annexation of > Ukraine's territory - Crimea. > > >

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On Wednesday 21 November 2018, Ilya Zverev wrote: > [...] > > To conclude, if we remove Kafia Kingi from the South Sudan relation, > there will be no notable violations to the 2013 agreement on our map > — though only by means of having one country overlap another. I am inclined to concur. For

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Hi everyone, Adding some constructive data to the discussion, I’ve run a query to find disputed territories that are mapped in violation to the 2013 agreement — like Crimea was before this week. There are only 20 overlaps of admin_level=2 polygons (has been in Spring 2018, I haven’t updated

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

sent from a phone > On 20. Nov 2018, at 19:56, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > It is also completely > non-verifiable (anyone can claim something is theirs). it is completely verifiable: you can read, hear and see that they claim it. As long as we agree that ‚anyone‘ is not sufficient (as in

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Are we looking for a solution of existing problem? Or thinking of hypothetical future problems and how they could potentially be harder (but not impossible) to solve using proposed solution? With a purpose of declaring it "too difficult" so "lets do nothing"? Most of us are happy to live in

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On Tuesday 20 November 2018, Andy Townsend wrote: > >Do you know a country which has a fluctuating representation of > > its borders say in schoolbooks? > > In my lifetime, lots - [...] Back in the days when i was at school typical German school maps knew at least four different types of

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

>>Do you know a country which has a fluctuating representation of its >> borders say in schoolbooks? > > In my lifetime, lots - countries (and I don't mean where boundaries > changed, but the external recogition of them did). For example, the US > only recognised the People's Republic of

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On 20/11/2018 19:43, Tomas Straupis wrote: Do you know a country which has a fluctuating representation of its borders say in schoolbooks? In my lifetime, lots - countries (and I don't mean where boundaries changed, but the external recogition of them did).  For example, the US only

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

All borders are verifiable mostly only by checking official documents. I think you are missing something very basic here. If two official documents are in disagreement then which one is correct? Two countries claiming the same territory for example. Those apps, which cannot tolerate

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

> From a practical point of view different applications such as OSMand take a > snapshot of the database at a point in time. > How would your proposal work with these derivatives and there are quite a few > including the odd one that gets updated once or year or so. Sorry, I did not

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On Tuesday 20 November 2018, Tomas Straupis wrote: > > But it would eliminate all border DISPUTES and ELIMINATE all this > political crap out of OSM discussions. Yes, sure, by allowing every mapper to map his or her specific subjective desire how the reality should look like we could eliminate

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

>From a practical point of view different applications such as OSMand take a snapshot of the database at a point in time. How would your proposal work with these derivatives and there are quite a few including the odd one that gets updated once or year or so. Are you suggesting that all

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

2018-11-20, an, 20:58 Christoph Hormann rašė: > This is not a workable approach as an universal rule. The volume of > boundary relation overlap world wide would be enormeous. You would > have a significant number of boundaries that have no practical meaning > today. Some countries have pretty

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On Tuesday 20 November 2018, Tomas Straupis wrote: > > How should we decide which way to map disputed borders?! > > As it was mapped a week ago: BOTH ways (included in BOTH country > polygons). This is not a workable approach as an universal rule. The volume of boundary relation overlap world

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

2018-11-20, an, 19:59 Rory McCann rašė: > How should we decide which way to map disputed borders?! As it was mapped a week ago: BOTH ways (included in BOTH country polygons). If required - disputed territory (polygon geometry) can be mapped as "disputed=yes" with a tag

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

OSM currently maps borders based on "physical control", which can have outcomes like this. I can see why it would be.. undesirable to some. If you think OSM should use a different rule, then please suggest another rule. We can talk about it and see what that rule would be like. It's a little more

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Tomas, If you want OSM to reconsider the disputed boundaries problem, you should analyse a selection of problems from around the world and come up with a policy that can address the issues there. As a charicature, you could say that we were faced with the choice of making a map that's illegal in

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On 20/11/2018 13:09, Tomas Straupis wrote: Can you give an example where things in OpenStreetMap are mapped in a different way than overwhelming majority of world thinks? If "the UN" counts for "the overwhelming majority of the world", there are quite a few examples. The UN recognises

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

2018-11-20, an, 14:33 john whelan rašė: > I think you have expressed your opinion but unfortunately whilst difficult > for you to accept traditionally OSM maps a certain way and has done > for sometime even though many governments and others would wish > we did something else. Can you give an

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

I think you have expressed your opinion but unfortunately whilst difficult for you to accept traditionally OSM maps a certain way and has done for sometime even though many governments and others would wish we did something else. The world isn't perfect, but from a pragmatic point of view I think

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

2018-11-20, an, 12:42 Elena ``of Valhalla'' rašė: > looking at a map where Crimea is part of Ukraine may lead people to plan > a trip to it, only to be stopped and possibly questioned. But going to Crimea without Ukrainian visa (and not via Ukraine controlled territory) would have legal

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

On 2018-11-20 at 11:22:46 +0200, Tomas Straupis wrote: > While I have already stated a number of negative effects (which have > so far been ignored), what positive effects does excluding Crimea from > Ukraine gives? The only way you can get to occupied territory of > Crimea from government

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

> If you ask students to contribute to the map and at the same time say > "btw they are in favour of evil Russian aggression" then of course > students (at least in Lithuania) will give it the thumbs-down. But if > you patiently explain the "on-the-ground rule" and that using this rule > has many

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Hi, On 20.11.2018 09:13, Tomas Straupis wrote: > How can I ask students to contribute to the map, which makes such a > damaging statement and has data which cannot be used to produce maps? *You* are making the statement, and publicly misinterpreting OSM's motivations. In doing so, it is *you*

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Youre saying something written in pdf is more important than huge practical and reputational damage done? Pdf cannot be wrong and it does not matter that OpenStreetMap loses a lot of opportunities and probable contributors? What will ordinary people understand from this decision? Will they read

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Hi, On 20.11.2018 07:15, Tomas Straupis wrote: > It would also be nice to know how members of DWG voted, to have more > information on their attitudes towards Russian aggression. The attitudes towards Russian aggression do not matter. DWG is not a body that rules about justice in the world,

Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

I've not been involved in this discussion at all, so it wasn't my decision. But as we've repeated time and time again on many occasions, the default borders in OSM are those of de facto control and recording the fact of which country has control has nothing to do if we think that is legit,

[OSM-talk] OSMF silently sides with Russia?

Hello I think this needs more attention and should not be silently buried in archives. OSMF/DWG has sided with Moscow to recognise illegal annexation of Ukraine's territory - Crimea. https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DWG_2018-11-14_Crimea Note that there was a