2009/8/6 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com:
Sounds good to me. An improvement. Look forward to seeing the
individual tag definitions cleaned up accordingly (eventually).
that would probably be a fulltime-job ;-)
cheers,
Martin
___
talk mailing list
John Smith wrote:
--- On Wed, 5/8/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
'Urban' areas should on the whole be covered by
'residential' or 'service' in
between the 4 main vehicle route tags. Although personally
I'd prefer that
motorway service roads were not grouped with 'industrial'.
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
that's IMHO why I started this discussion: it surely isn't just physical.
well perhaps that was why the Australian Guidelines, written before I joined
OSM, tagged highways both with their physical condition and an administrative
condition, double
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Lester Caine wrote:
Certainly an 'unclassified' highway should not be capable of handling a
large lorry so routes for access to farms should be tagged 'service'
perhaps where such access is practical,
It must be capable of taking the fire truck.
Often they can also take
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Richard Mann
richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote:
I'd agree that it should be importance for
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary. The stuff about not using trunk for
single-track roads just doesn't match what people are actually doing
(judging by some of
2009/8/5 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Richard Mann
richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote:
I'd agree that it should be importance for
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary. The stuff about not using trunk for
single-track roads just doesn't match what
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Martin
Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
OK, to start beeing concrete, and because I got the idea that tagging
according to importance is widely supported in the different
countries, I edited the page. The result is here:
I'd agree that it should be importance for
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary. The stuff about not using trunk for
single-track roads just doesn't match what people are actually doing
(judging by some of the roads in the Western Highlands). The physical tends
to align to the importance, but what we
2009/8/5 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com:
I'd agree that it should be importance for
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary. The stuff about not using trunk for
single-track roads just doesn't match what people are actually doing
(judging by some of the roads in the Western
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 19:02, Martin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/8/5 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com:
I'd agree that it should be importance for
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary. The stuff about not using trunk for
single-track roads just doesn't match
2009/8/5 David Lynch djly...@gmail.com:
no, I don't agree. A highway becomes motorway when it get's legally
promoted to be a motorway (by the motorway-sign this is indicated).
The USA has no such sign, nor do Canada and Mexico (AFAIK.) Do we have
no motorways?
Well I can't tell from personal
On 08/04/2009 07:17 PM, David Lynch wrote:
The USA has no such sign, nor do Canada and Mexico (AFAIK.) Do we have
no motorways?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I-95.svg
-Alex Mauer hawke
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Motorway is mainly physical. The point is that it most definitely isn't
defined by importance. A motorway is the part of a trunk road that has
grade-separated junctions, and is on a new alignment, or does by some other
means keep slow traffic out of harm's way.
My concern stands - beware putting
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 19:31, Martin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/8/5 David Lynch djly...@gmail.com:
no, I don't agree. A highway becomes motorway when it get's legally
promoted to be a motorway (by the motorway-sign this is indicated).
The USA has no such sign, nor do
2009/8/5 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com:
Motorway is mainly physical. The point is that it most definitely isn't
defined by importance.
well, in nearly all cases the motorways will be the most important
roads. Of course there are also other characteristics and a highly
My English was perhaps unclear. The discomfort is with using the same tag
for two quite different road types (industrial estate roads and country
lanes). Either would be fine on their own.
The potential problem for renderers is that there's a lot less space to
render things in urban areas, so
2009/8/5 David Lynch djly...@gmail.com:
That indicates that it's part of the Interstate system. Every highway
on the Interstate system is a motorway-class (high-speed and
grade-separated) road, but not every motorway-class road in the United
States is an Interstate. There is no equivalent to
As far as I have understood by reading English Wikipedia you have
different classes (Freeway, Interstate, Numbered Highways) where at
least Freeway and Interstate are motorways. Those seem to have
unambiguous signs. May I suppose that I would not be allowed to ride
my bike on any of these,
Motorways and trunk roads jointly form the most important tier in the UK.
Most countries seem to follow a similar pattern - motorways feed into
non-motorway trunk roads to jointly form the top tier.
Richard
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:07 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:
2009/8/5 Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com:
As far as I have understood by reading English Wikipedia you have
different classes (Freeway, Interstate, Numbered Highways) where at
least Freeway and Interstate are motorways. Those seem to have
unambiguous signs. May I suppose that I would
On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 20:13, Martin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/8/5 David Lynch djly...@gmail.com:
That indicates that it's part of the Interstate system. Every highway
on the Interstate system is a motorway-class (high-speed and
grade-separated) road, but not every
--- On Tue, 4/8/09, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote:
The potential problem for renderers is that
there's a lot less space to render things in urban
areas, so they benefit if lower-order roads are
distinguishable between urban areas (so they can be narrowed
or
as far as I know freeway require that there are no intersections and
access is via ramp.
but this independent from bike access.
Know one example where freeway ends just for a single access without
ramp and starts again after ~ 100m
yes usually these interruptions are tagged as trunk. US 101
John Smith wrote:
--- On Tue, 4/8/09, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com
wrote:
The potential problem for renderers is that
there's a lot less space to render things in urban
areas, so they benefit if lower-order roads are
distinguishable between urban areas (so they
--- On Wed, 5/8/09, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
'Urban' areas should on the whole be covered by
'residential' or 'service' in
between the 4 main vehicle route tags. Although personally
I'd prefer that
motorway service roads were not grouped with 'industrial'.
'shopping' may
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2009/8/1 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Well I disagree. IMHO we should tag what is 'on the ground', not invent
things or try to tag what's in people's minds. If a government body gives
On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Christiaan
Welvaartc...@daneel.dyndns.org wrote:
Why would who maintains a road directly determine its administrative
classification? If a municipality decides that some road is a motorway, we
better tag it as such. In The Netherlands some provinces maintain
2009/8/3 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
I don't see what you're saying here. Do you have a complete text to
replace the intro text on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway ?
NO, of course not. All I wanted to do is change the first phrase:
The highway tag is the primary
2009/8/4 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2009, Elena of Valhalla wrote:
So is it really a big change for Germany and Italy to
define the highway tag as the administrative classification of the road?
As Martin already said, yes, it would be a big change, and it would
become quite
On 01/08/2009, at 7:38 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Well, you can do this, but most routers will try not to use
residential roads if there is another way.
Maybe things are different over in Europe than here in Australia. My
Garmin when using commercial maps and a friend's NavMan are both
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 12:03 PM, James Livingstondoc...@mac.com wrote:
If we ignore the Australian tagging guidelines, what should we use for
roads that are the same as residential ones but in an industrial area?
According to the wiki, unclassified roads are wider than residential
ones, and
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Pieren wrote:
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 12:03 PM, James Livingstondoc...@mac.com wrote:
If we ignore the Australian tagging guidelines, what should we use for
roads that are the same as residential ones but in an industrial area?
According to the wiki, unclassified roads
2009/8/1 James Stewart j.k.stew...@ed.ac.uk:
Classifying roads in central asia, it is easier, and makes more sense in my
opinion to use the highway ref in the administrative sense. Some countries
or regions have 5 or 6 main roads with are the national trunk system. In
places they are almost
2009/8/1 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
It seems to be an interpretation problem for the phrase 'administrave class'
then because I clearly argued that who is the maintainer of the road should
not directly influence the value of the
2009/8/2 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
So the question is:
is there anything about a road inside an industrial or commercial area which
would be important inside a renderer or a routing engine
and is different to a residential road?
yes. A residential road should be avoided if possible (slow,
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Martin
Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
yes. A residential road should be avoided if possible (slow, dangerous
and noisy for residents / playing kids)
Add for cars. It could be the opposite for cycling as it is writen here:
2009/8/2 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Martin
Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
yes. A residential road should be avoided if possible (slow, dangerous
and noisy for residents / playing kids)
Add for cars. It could be the opposite for cycling as it is
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Lized...@billiau.net wrote:
lots of things sound bad, but we need more than feel good answers to make
good maps.
So the question is:
is there anything about a road inside an industrial or commercial area which
would be important inside a renderer or a routing
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Furthermore industrial areas are
built according to standards that allow easy use with trucks, while in
residential areas you will more often have smaller streets and
straighter curves, which will cause problems to big trucks.
That does not
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 06:56, Martin Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/8/2 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
So the question is:
is there anything about a road inside an industrial or commercial area which
would be important inside a renderer or a routing engine
and is different to a
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
If the administrative class in your country coincides with the
importance: fine. Nothing changes. Unfortunately this is neither in
Italy nor in Germany the case: some roads have been downgraded /
passed to a lower maintenance entity for
2009/8/1 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
areas, that's why your aussie-way might produce slightly
worse routing
results (don't know, just an idea).
The navit routing engine prefers residential to tertiary in some cases... So
not all poor routing is because we use unclassified for lower
2009/8/1 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Why would who maintains a road directly determine its administrative
classification? If a municipality decides that some road is a motorway, we
better tag it as such. In The Netherlands some
--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
Which are those cases? Maybe the tertiary was not
connected? Did you
check the map data in the area? Usually bad routing results
come from
bad map data ;-)
Yup, the map data was correct, navit just did weird things and
2009/8/1 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
Which are those cases? Maybe the tertiary was not
connected? Did you
check the map data in the area? Usually bad routing results
come from
bad map data ;-)
Yup, the map data
--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
OK, but actually this is a navit bug then, because I hope
we all agree
that a tertiary road should be prefered to a residential
road in
Yes it was a bug and I filed a bug about it in their bug tracker.
routing. Still I
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
seems as if you got me completely wrong. The administrative
classification _IS_ about who maintains the road (at least in Germany
and Italy). While BAB (Bundesautobahn / motorway) and Bundestraße
(federal road) are maintained by the federal administration,
: Re: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag
To: m...@koppenhoefer.com
Cc: osm talk@openstreetmap.org
Message-ID:
a088870d0907311006q2e74e2aak6962b469c...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Sometimes it's physical, sometimes administrative. Generally it's
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2009/8/1 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Why would who maintains a road directly determine its administrative
classification? If a municipality decides that some road is a motorway, we
--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:
A long standing convention on a printed Australian map is
that a road which is
unsealed is drawn with a broken line of the same colour and
width as the road
would have if it was sealed.
That is to do with rendering, not how the data is
--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote:
A long standing convention on a printed Australian map is
that a road which is
unsealed is drawn with a broken line of the same colour and
width as the road
would have if it was sealed.
That is to do with rendering, not how the data is
...or
locally-maintained rural roads that are important for local
navigation, such as connecting a shortcut between two nearby highways
which don't intersect.
I'm happy that there seems (until now, few contribution in this
thread) a consensus on the proposed modification of the basic
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com writes:
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
it's a different meaning in urban areas as in rural areas.
Many of
what you tag as primary and secondary in rural areas
(especially low
density ones) has 2 (1+1) lanes, while
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:
were that important it probably would be bigger. If
you are about
#lanes, there's a lanes tag for that.
Does any renders currently use the number of lanes to vary the outputted
images, or should this be something submitted as a wish
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes:
2009/7/31 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
- residential roads (just in residential areas, no
connecting
function, you will not take this if you don't live in the
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I just see it as a hierarchical line:
residential
unclassified
tert
sec
prim
trunk
motorway
it's simple as that, and I don't see any problem.
Maybe to you, but I don't see it that way based on reading the
2009/7/31 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
I object to the notion that there should be a different relationship
between residential/unclassified in urban vs rural areas. We already
have too much of that, and I think it's a sign our definitions are off
base. There's no clear boundary, and we have
David Lynch djly...@gmail.com writes:
Motorway: More than one grade-separated intersection in a row, high
speed, oncoming traffic separated.
A Motorway should meet the physical standards of what the best national
Motorway/Interstate/etc. roads are. Generally entirely divided and
limited
2009/7/31 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I just see it as a hierarchical line:
residential
unclassified
tert
sec
prim
trunk
motorway
it's simple as that, and I don't see any problem.
Maybe to you, but I
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know where you are mapping and which streets you
are mapping
Sorry, I was thinking of the Australian guidelines...
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Roads_Tagging
Well, I'm in Italy but occasionally
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes:
2009/7/31 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I just see it as a hierarchical line:
residential
unclassified
tert
sec
prim
trunk
motorway
it's simple as
2009/7/31 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
So probably the renderers need a way to show unclassified as less
important than tertiary.
they (t...@h, mapnik, cyclemap) are already doing this.
And perhaps 'residential' should be redefined as only used by people
who are traveling to a location on
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes:
2009/7/31 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
So probably the renderers need a way to show unclassified as less
important than tertiary.
they (t...@h, mapnik, cyclemap) are already doing this.
Sorry, I meant 'lower than tertiary and more
2009/7/31 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
In that case we need a parallel tag to unclassified, meaning local-only
but without the residential notion. But around me there aren't enough
such roads to worry about, and they're all tagged residential from
massgis import anyway :-)
well. Propose what
2009/7/31 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
I don't know where you are mapping and which streets you are mapping
as residential. Maybe you could post an example so I can try to
understand you better.
The English page for residential states:
Sometimes it's physical, sometimes administrative. Generally it's
administrative where that is clearly defined (ie the higher road classes in
developed countries), and more physical when it isn't.
So saying either is correct wouldn't be entirely true.
Richard
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:16 PM,
2009/7/31 Martin Simon grenzde...@gmail.com:
2009/7/31 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
This tag is used for roads accessing or around residential areas but
which are not a classified or unclassified highway.
This is a useful guideline if you are not sure whether to use
residential
2009/7/31 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com:
Sometimes it's physical, sometimes administrative. Generally it's
administrative where that is clearly defined (ie the higher road classes in
developed countries), and more physical when it isn't.
So saying either is correct
2009/7/31 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
But, as I understand trunk, it's meant to be a physical upgrade from
primary, which is a national-level highway.
Well, you could argue that it would be valid to adopt this standard in
a country where it was deemed useful. But that's not how it is here.
2009/7/31 Dermot McNally derm...@gmail.com:
2009/7/31 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
Well, you could argue that it would be valid to adopt this standard in
a country where it was deemed useful. But that's not how it is here.
Ireland has two grades of National road, primary and secondary
2009/7/31 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
This is exactly my point. The highway class already represents the
importance of the road, not it's physical build standard, but the wiki
defines the latter to be relevant. I was suggesting to update the
definition according to
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009, John Smith wrote, replying to Martin Koppenhoefer:
Well, I just see it as a hierarchical line:
residential
unclassified
tert
sec
prim
trunk
motorway
it's simple as that, and I don't see any problem.
Maybe to you, but I don't see it that way based on
2009/7/31 Liz ed...@billiau.net:
Martin mentions http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Residential
The history for this shows that was written after we wrote our Australian
tagging guidelines - nearly a year later.
yes, this page is indeed dating back just to April 2008, what means,
there has
--- On Fri, 31/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
areas, that's why your aussie-way might produce slightly
worse routing
results (don't know, just an idea).
The navit routing engine prefers residential to tertiary in some cases... So
not all poor routing is because we
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes:
secondary is typically used for travel at least 25km (between
multiple towns)
tertiary is used to get to secondary roads (to get to the 'real
road' in the next town)
this is working well for out-of-town situations. Inside
2009/7/30 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
this is working well for out-of-town situations. Inside urban
good point; that's what I am used to thinking about.
agglomerations there should be different criteria though (and not
necessarily they are physical, what is my point: let's put the
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
- residential roads (just in residential areas, no
connecting
function, you will not take this if you don't live in the
area)
- unclassified roads (not clear, there are voices that they
don't
exist in urban areas, I
2009/7/31 John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com:
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
- residential roads (just in residential areas, no
connecting
function, you will not take this if you don't live in the
area)
- unclassified roads (not clear, there are
--- On Thu, 30/7/09, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
it's a different meaning in urban areas as in rural areas.
Many of
what you tag as primary and secondary in rural areas
(especially low
density ones) has 2 (1+1) lanes, while in a
metropolitan area will
very often
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:59, Martin
Koppenhoeferdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
The problem is that there is a continuous hierarchy of roads in terms of
importance, and when you get huge numbers of roads in the city the jump
From tertiary to residential/unclassified is too big and people tag
Accidentally hit send there...
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 23:12, David Lynchdjly...@gmail.com wrote:
To paraphrase a post in one of the US tagging talk pages on the Wiki,
this is what my tags end up being:
Motorway: More than one grade-separated intersection in a row, high speed,
oncoming
Hi,
reading the English page for tag highway
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway and comparing it to the
German version, I found some inconsistencies. Whilst I generally would
have tried to transfer the English content to the German page, in this
particular case I think that the German
If the highway-tag was the only tag on a road, I would agree with this
approach, but as we are meanwhile tagging physical attributes as
supplementory tags (e.g. lanes, surface, traffic-lights), as we do for
administrative classification (ref), I am in favour of changing the
definition
2009/7/29 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com:
There are three separate concepts:
physical structure
administrative designation
importance according to actual use
maybe there could be also a forth that is structural importance for
the historical development (e.g. the main street, that was there
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