Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jan Martinec]

On 11/02/17 08:20, Tomas Straupis wrote:

What was the reason NOT to use vector tiles?
As that would solve most of the problems discussed in this thread.

They didn't exist in a usable form at the time (I think), and most 
deployments are WebGL-based ("not a newish browser on a newish computer? 
Go away!"); switching from a image-based to a vector-based 
infrastructure is non-trivial. But vector tiles are the likely way 
forward, I definitely agree.


Best regards,

Honza "Piskvor" Martinec

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Tomas Straupis]

What was the reason NOT to use vector tiles?
As that would solve most of the problems discussed in this thread.

-- 
Tomas

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 01.11.17 19:15, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote:

On 2017-11-01 at 14:28:12 +0100, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:

There is a code for the Lingua Latina (Latin language) in the ISO 639-1,
which is used at the OSM. It is "la" [1]. It is an ancient language so
modern political controversies would not be reflected on it.
[...]

This is the point where I believe that most people (me incuded) don't
agree: latin has ancient origins, but is still alive precisely because
it has remained in use up to modern times in a very specific part of the
world.

It may be a good neutral language between speakers of e.g. French and
German, but once you get outside of Europe + nations mostly inhabited by
europeans it's definitely not neutral, but the (scientific) language of
the old imperialist powers.

It is also much easier to understand for the speaker of some languages,
but utterly foreign to anybody from a culture where the common langage
of science was e.g. a variant of chinese or classical arabic, as those
two languages are to us europeans.

I can think of one language among the ones that I know of that would be
ancient and free from modern political controversies: ancient Sumerian,
which is really dead, a language isolate (and thus equally difficult for
everybody) and written in its own system (so that nobody is advantaged
here either). Of course, these precise reasons make it quite an
impractical choice for osm.


These are good valid points. I do not argue about it. However, as Andy 
wrote earlier, we often have to switch to other layers or maps, i.e. the 
default OSM layer is not usable on the global scale.


Using the Latin language for additional names is a practical compromise. 
The Latin alphabet is de facto readable to many people. At the same time 
it would be safer for volunteers all over the world as there are no 
standing military entities which use the Latin language.


In a way we are doing a disservice to those cultures since the major 
online map, the OSM, is not readable for their lands. On one hand, it is 
very good that only local alphabets are being used, but on the other 
hand we kind of lock them on the map in the ethnic enclaves.


Besides, if one does not want that there is a name in the Latin alphabet 
in addition to the name in local alphabet, - just do not add name:la=* 
tag . By the way, for many towns and cities the name in Latin coincides 
with the name in English, for example the city of Odessa [1].


Certainly, the Status quo bias [2] works against this idea too, but it 
is doable, and there will be no drastic changes on the map since the 
name in Latin would be added gradually.


[1] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias

Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-11-01 19:15 GMT+01:00 Elena ``of Valhalla'' :

>
> It may be a good neutral language between speakers of e.g. French and
> German




not even, as French is a romance language with very strong latin influence,
while German only has had some influence.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Richard]

On Wed, Nov 01, 2017 at 01:58:32PM +, Andy Townsend wrote:
 
> The slightly more serious point that I was trying to make was that one map
> style can't do everything - if you want to see latin (script, not language)
> names there are options available for you to do that right now.  I quite
> like the idea that the "standard" map tries to use the local language and
> doesn't impose one culture's view of what things should be called - and
> using Latin (the language) worldwide is of course not really any different
> to that - if you truly wanted a "language that has been in use for a long
> time and is spoken by a lot of people" you'd pick a version of Chinese.

all nice, but ask the Arbas if they want to have Chinese names rendered in
Chinese and Russian in Cyrillic or rather transliterated to English, ask the 
Chinese if they want to see half of Asia in Russian and Arab alphabets or 
better in English and then ask the Russsians the equivalent questions.

Also, while it is relatively rare that names transliterated to latin can 
cause political issues, many names in Asia will cause trouble if they appear
in the wrong local language in the wrong country.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Elena ``of Valhalla'']

On 2017-11-01 at 14:28:12 +0100, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
> There is a code for the Lingua Latina (Latin language) in the ISO 639-1,
> which is used at the OSM. It is "la" [1]. It is an ancient language so
> modern political controversies would not be reflected on it.
> [...]

This is the point where I believe that most people (me incuded) don't
agree: latin has ancient origins, but is still alive precisely because
it has remained in use up to modern times in a very specific part of the
world.

It may be a good neutral language between speakers of e.g. French and
German, but once you get outside of Europe + nations mostly inhabited by
europeans it's definitely not neutral, but the (scientific) language of
the old imperialist powers.

It is also much easier to understand for the speaker of some languages,
but utterly foreign to anybody from a culture where the common langage
of science was e.g. a variant of chinese or classical arabic, as those
two languages are to us europeans.

I can think of one language among the ones that I know of that would be
ancient and free from modern political controversies: ancient Sumerian,
which is really dead, a language isolate (and thus equally difficult for
everybody) and written in its own system (so that nobody is advantaged
here either). Of course, these precise reasons make it quite an
impractical choice for osm.
-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 01.11.2017 o 14:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev pisze:

A would-be future vector map, probably, is not a a good solution, as 
it does not use the principle of precalculation. The Latin language 
has been used for centuries in science (including geography and 
cartography). Its popularity is growing nowadays.


One can deploy l10n osm-carto fork with Latin:

https://github.com/giggls/openstreetmap-carto-de/tree/upstream+l10n

or just use the English-enhanced map:

https://tile.iosb.fraunhofer.de//#map=5/30.1198/33.2703/3

I also think that vector name overlay is needed anyway, no matter if and 
when we'll have full vector map.


--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Andy Townsend]

On 01/11/2017 13:43, Pierre Béland wrote:
Nice, I often had problems while editing or validating in countries 
with non latin alphabet. Will this be automaticly overlayed to the map 
based on your language option ?


I was being facetious of course - it's just the "Transport" map as seen 
at osm.org.  Actually what I normally use is a map-site that allows you 
to switch between layers including the openstreetmap.de ones (such as 
https://a.tile.openstreetmap.de/tiles/osmde/5/20/12.png .


The slightly more serious point that I was trying to make was that one 
map style can't do everything - if you want to see latin (script, not 
language) names there are options available for you to do that right 
now.  I quite like the idea that the "standard" map tries to use the 
local language and doesn't impose one culture's view of what things 
should be called - and using Latin (the language) worldwide is of course 
not really any different to that - if you truly wanted a "language that 
has been in use for a long time and is spoken by a lot of people" you'd 
pick a version of Chinese.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 01.11.2017 o 14:36, Andy Townsend pisze:

On 01/11/2017 13:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
Still, the OSM map remains unusable on the global scale. For 
instance, I read an article about the new railroad North-South. I 
wanted to see it on the OSM map but I could not even find Iran on the 
map. 


Works for me:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/31.887/52.844=T


Only to some degree - try to see Beijing here on z5 and z6:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/25248662#map=5/38.273/117.400=T

You can report it to Andy, of course, but I'm sure there are more cases 
like this.


--
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Pierre Béland]

Nice, I often had problems while editing or validating in countries with non 
latin alphabet. Will this be automaticly overlayed to the map based on your 
language option ?

 
Pierre 
 

Le mercredi 1 novembre 2017 09:38:15 HAE, Andy Townsend  
a écrit :  
 
 On 01/11/2017 13:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
> Still, the OSM map remains unusable on the global scale. For instance, 
> I read an article about the new railroad North-South. I wanted to see 
> it on the OSM map but I could not even find Iran on the map. 

Works for me:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/31.887/52.844=T

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Andy Townsend]

On 01/11/2017 13:28, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
Still, the OSM map remains unusable on the global scale. For instance, 
I read an article about the new railroad North-South. I wanted to see 
it on the OSM map but I could not even find Iran on the map. 


Works for me:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/31.887/52.844=T

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 22.10.17 03:22, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 24 September 2017 at 23:01, Matthijs Melissen
 wrote:

I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
the Default map on openstreetmap.org.

Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion. It seems that
the current choice, rendering local names only, is the preferred
option for most of you. We'll therefore leave the rendering unchanged.

-- Matthijs

___

Still, the OSM map remains unusable on the global scale. For instance, I 
read an article about the new railroad North-South. I wanted to see it 
on the OSM map but I could not even find Iran on the map.


There is a code for the Lingua Latina (Latin language) in the ISO 639-1, 
which is used at the OSM. It is "la" [1]. It is an ancient language so 
modern political controversies would not be reflected on it.


It is not necessary to show a name in the Latin alphabet for each town 
or village. That is why only if the name:la=* in the Latin language 
added, only then it would be rendered on the map. At least a country 
name and major cities.


Irania [2] and Teheranum [3] would be good enough to me.

A would-be future vector map, probably, is not a a good solution, as it 
does not use the principle of precalculation. The Latin language has 
been used for centuries in science (including geography and 
cartography). Its popularity is growing nowadays.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes

[2] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irania

[3] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teheranum

Best regards,

Oleksiy

P.S. There is no code for the ancient Greek in the ISO 639-1, and there 
is no Wikipedia in ancient Greek.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 24 September 2017 at 23:01, Matthijs Melissen
 wrote:
> I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
> the Default map on openstreetmap.org.

Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion. It seems that
the current choice, rendering local names only, is the preferred
option for most of you. We'll therefore leave the rendering unchanged.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Max]

+1
Until there is a (vector) map that allows you to change the preferred 
language dynamically or match against a priority list of languages from 
the user, the current principle of local language = display language is 
simply the best option.




On 2017년 09월 26일 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we 
could send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] 
and would make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn 
away as soon as they get to know about it.


Cheers,
Martin


[1] sometimes you already can get this impression about OSM, although it 
is a different bunch of elitists (computer science) than those typically 
studying Latin.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 26.09.17 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we 
could send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] 
and would make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn 
away as soon as they get to know about it.


Cheers,
Martin


[1] sometimes you already can get this impression about OSM, although 
it is a different bunch of elitists (computer science) than those 
typically studying Latin.


I do not argue with it. It is not an ideal solution.

However, there is a saying "A language is a dialect with an army and 
navy" [1]. So giving a global preference to one language, no matter 
which, also sends a certain message.


The Latin language is unique in this respect. It is well developed in 
the field of science, including geography. And it is not associated with 
any political entity for which exists a living memory. And it will be 
used only for additional labels to the main labels in local non-Latin 
alphabets.


In any case, it is doable, and, perhaps, there could be other ideas, not 
only the obvious ones.


[1] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy


Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Sep 2017, at 23:58, Andy Mabbett  wrote:
> 
> Wherever I go in the world, I try to make some improvements to OSM. Am
> I then a local mapper? In Jakarta, Doha, Cairo, Larnaca, Istanbul, or
> Warsaw?


IMHO you are a local mapper in places that you know very well, either because 
you live there or because you have a good reason to go there often, e.g. for 
work, friendship etc.

Being able to conduct a survey (because you are there and have time and 
interest) makes your mapping (IMHO) more valuable than that of people remotely 
mapping without first hand knowledge of the area, but a local? I’d reject this.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Andy Mabbett]

On 25 September 2017 at 07:14, Jo  wrote:

> The purpose of the default rendering is to give feedback to mappers.

I'd love to see some stats on how many people visit that map, and their reasons.

Fancy a wager on the percentage that are mappers?

What about people who have no interest in becoming mappers, but whom
we want to convert to being users of OSM data? Or donors of data?

> Preferably local mappers, so having the map rendered in local languages
> shouldn't be a problem.

Wherever I go in the world, I try to make some improvements to OSM. Am
I then a local mapper? In Jakarta, Doha, Cairo, Larnaca, Istanbul, or
Warsaw?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 26.09.2017 o 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we 
could send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] 
and would make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn 
away as soon as they get to know about it.


I would choose languages to reach as many people as possible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers#Ethnologue_.282017_20th_edition.29

--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

for the record: using Latin would be the completely wrong message we could
send out IMHO. It would make us look like an elitist circle [1] and would
make many people feel rejected, or at least make them turn away as soon as
they get to know about it.

Cheers,
Martin


[1] sometimes you already can get this impression about OSM, although it is
a different bunch of elitists (computer science) than those typically
studying Latin.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-26 6:00 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev :

> But the Latin language does exist, and its popularity is growing [1].
>


see, they also mention Greek ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Imre Samu]

>That sounds like an argument against any incremental improvement ever

imho: the risk Identification is an important design step.  [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_management ]
And reducing risks is another step.



2017-09-25 16:34 GMT+02:00 Nicolás Alvarez :

>
> El 25 sept 2017, a las 10:54, Imre Samu  escribió:.
>
>
> What about the other alternatives?
>
> for example:
> - just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and
> keeping the current design for Z9-Z19
>
> so there will be  (z0-z8)
> - local + english
> - local + chinese
> - local + arabic
> - local + japanese
> - local + russian
> - local + german
> - local + spanish
> - ...
> - local + greek
> - local + hungarian
> - local + 
> - .
>
>
> This is 262144 more tiles *per language*. Who wants to donate a few disks?
>
>
> And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be
> counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   (
> for example - less urgency?)
>
>
> That sounds like an argument against any incremental improvement ever.
> Wouldn't your proposed multilingual tiles cause less urgency for vector
> tiles too?
>
> Imre
> /native Hungarian/
>
>
>
> 2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :
>
>> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst 
>> wrote:
>> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>> >
>> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>> >
>> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
>> > openstreetmap-carto.
>>
>> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>>
>> -- Matthijs
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 26.09.17 01:30, John F. Eldredge wrote:


People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using 
the Latin language.


Certainly, the Latin alphabet is more known as it is used in many modern 
languages. But the Latin language does exist, and its popularity is 
growing [1].


So my suggestion was fairly simple, - since the secondary labels in 
Latin alphabet could be only in one language on a non-vector map, why 
not use the Latin language itself. The geographical names in Latin 
language are readily available, since maps in past centuries were often 
produced in Latin language [2], so it is possible just to copy at least 
some names from the historical maps, which should be in the public 
domain by now.


Keeping names only in local alphabets, as it is now, or using English, 
French, German, or Esperanto languages, for secondary labels, are also 
not ideal solutions for numerous reasons.



[1] "The Growing Popularity of Latin and Greek", June 8, 2017

http://www.greatheartsamerica.org/amor-vincit-omnia-growing-popularity-latin-greek/ 



The Wall Street Journal, "Carpe Diem: U.S. Students Revive Latin and 
Greek", June 7, 2017


https://www.wsj.com/articles/veni-vidi-vici-u-s-students-revive-latin-and-greek-1496851612


[2] 
https://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/maps-continent/1644%20blaeu.jpg


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

OSMAND+ already uses a vector-based system to render OSM-data-based maps, 
and has been doing so for some time. So, the technology already exists.



On September 25, 2017 6:22:59 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Frederik Ramm wrote:

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.


Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the 
Latin language.



On September 25, 2017 8:56:04 AM Oleksiy Muzalyev 
 wrote:



On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev
>:

The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European
culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.

If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity
solution.

And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia.
And it is understandable, for example Japan is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium

It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make
a map usable on the international scale.

Best regards,

Oleksiy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 25.09.2017 o 13:15, Maarten Deen pisze:
Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of 
selecting layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable 
it), I was more thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all 
language overlays. No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers.


More basic solution would be to use language settings from the user 
account preferences.


I've done simple list of possible solutions of name labels problem:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330526353 



They can be rendering related or deployment related. Both have its 
merits, but they can be used in parallel too.


1. Vector based solution can be full, but that's long ahead of us, yet 
in a medium term a vector names overlay should be affordable. We already 
use overlays, so the problem would be to prepare name-only vector tiles 
and deploy a code to show them on OSM website. I was thinking that maybe 
some less loaded server could be used to generate such tiles.


2. But raster rendering can be improved too. I think there's a sliding 
scale between small objects (probably only local names), big objects (in 
general no local names) and medium scale (mix of local and other 
languages). For the biggest objects (continents, oceans, seas) I've come 
to the conclusion that a set of 6 official UN languages might be good, 
small objects translations are probably fake (=not possible to verify) 
anyway, so we could just try to improve medium scale somehow (countries, 
capitals, lakes). I would not think of Latina or Esperanto, because 
English is used by much more people, if we talk about latin script. I 
also don't know what to do with users of other scripts which are not 
familiar with latin.


Overall I think vector name labels overlay is the most interesting 
solution for now, apart from osm-carto tuning. What do you think about 
it, would anyone try to do this as a pilot probably? I would be happy to 
help.


--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 25.09.17 16:19, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?

Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto 
enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).  I'm surprised that one 
of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.


While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German 
so that we can be a bit more precise about everything?


Best Regards,

Andy (not entirely seriously)


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The Latin language has got an advantage over Esperanto. It is possible 
to view and read historical maps which are often in Latin. For example, 
in Latin the North Pole is Polus Arcticus, and in Esperanto it is Norda 
poluso. But if one looks at the historical map:


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polus_arcticus#/media/File:Mercator_north_pole_1595.jpg

it is Polus Arcticus.

The same about inscriptions on the historical monuments, plaques, 
stones, columns, walls, etc. I have nothing against Esperanto, but it 
was created only by the end of the 19th century.


Best regards,
Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Nicolás Alvarez]

> El 25 sept 2017, a las 10:54, Imre Samu  escribió:.
> 
> What about the other alternatives?
> 
> for example:
> - just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and 
> keeping the current design for Z9-Z19
> 
> so there will be  (z0-z8)
> - local + english
> - local + chinese
> - local + arabic
> - local + japanese
> - local + russian
> - local + german
> - local + spanish
> - ...  
> - local + greek
> - local + hungarian
> - local + 
> - .

This is 262144 more tiles *per language*. Who wants to donate a few disks?

>  
> And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be 
> counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   ( for 
> example - less urgency?)

That sounds like an argument against any incremental improvement ever. Wouldn't 
your proposed multilingual tiles cause less urgency for vector tiles too?

> Imre
> /native Hungarian/
> 
> 
> 
> 2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :
>> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst  
>> wrote:
>> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>> >
>> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>> >
>> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
>> > openstreetmap-carto.
>> 
>> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>> 
>> -- Matthijs
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

Mi ankaŭ proponas ke ni uzos esperanto! :-)

2017-09-25 16:19 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
>
>>
>> If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?
>>
>> Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto
> enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.
> org/keys/name%3Aeo and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).
> I'm surprised that one of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.
>
> While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German so
> that we can be a bit more precise about everything?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy (not entirely seriously)
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Nicolás Alvarez]

And now we're talking about years of work. The original post to this thread 
already said making multiple versions is technically hard and out of scope.


> El 25 sept 2017, a las 07:39, James  escribió:
> 
> That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG 
> itself
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:
>> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in 
>> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is 
>> not a practical endeavour.
>> 
>> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might 
>>> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words. 
>>> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based 
>>> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if 
>>> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>> 
>>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese 
>>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>> 
 On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev"  
 wrote:
> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
> 
> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
> Latin-alphabet). [...]
 
 Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to non-Latin 
 alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and also in 
 Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
 
 Best regards,
 
 Oleksiy
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?

Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto 
enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).  I'm surprised that one 
of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.


While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German 
so that we can be a bit more precise about everything?


Best Regards,

Andy (not entirely seriously)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Imre Samu]

>Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

What about the other alternatives?

for example:
- just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and
keeping the current design for Z9-Z19

so there will be  (z0-z8)
- local + english
- local + chinese
- local + arabic
- local + japanese
- local + russian
- local + german
- local + spanish
- ...
- local + greek
- local + hungarian
- local + 
- .

[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages

For the small languages, it will be useful for fixing data problems early,
and IMHO a better transition for a full multi-language support.


>The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to  
>(additionally)
display labels in English
> (or in any case the Latin-alphabet)

We must remember the survivorship bias [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias ]
People who can't speak English - can't complain in the English forum.  (
lack of visibility )

And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be
counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   ( for
example - less urgency?)

Imre
/native Hungarian/



2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :

> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst 
> wrote:
> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
> >
> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
> >
> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
> > openstreetmap-carto.
>
> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev 
>:


The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has 
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern 
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin 
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European 
culture). ;-)



Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage 
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The 
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which 
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the 
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable 
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity 
solution.


And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need 
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia. 
And it is understandable, for example Japan is: 
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is: 
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium


It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a 
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make 
a map usable on the international scale.


Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 25.09.2017 13:48, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

Yes. Don't.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>
> Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>
> But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
> openstreetmap-carto.

Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
> > this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>
> Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>
> But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet
> of openstreetmap-carto.

Note however rendering OSM-Carto without labels and producing a separate 
client side rendered labeling would be a possible approach.

Vector tiles is a buzzword occasionally suggested as a solution to any 
and all problems in map rendering but so far i have not seen any 
practical proposal for a client rendered vector tiles concept that 
would be able to serve the mapper feedback purposes of the current OSM 
standard style.  Rory's port of OSM-Carto to vector tiles is not 
suitable for client side rendering.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve 
> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.

Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Maarten Deen]

Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of selecting 
layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable it), I was more 
thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all language overlays. 
No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers.


Maarten


On 2017-09-25 12:37, Jo wrote:

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages
in existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra
layers is not a practical endeavour.

2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :


I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which
might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for
non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the
default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there
would be a different opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other
list(non-latin)

Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere,
Japanese everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc

On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev"
 wrote:
On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label
موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]

Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google
translator and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum [1]

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria [2]

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania [3]

Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Links:
--
[1] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
[2] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
[3] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
[4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Warin]

On 25-Sep-17 07:49 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
read. Which, I assume, everyone does.

Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want a map
that...' and 'i want the standard OSM map to...'.

I also do need a map with names i can read everywhere on earth in many
cases but as you already said this need is mostly quite well served by
both commercial and non-commercial styles from local communities (like
the German OSM style).


I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that
by only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin
script but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to
include a Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even
use Latin renderings altogether for "name". A future option of
"display the name you like" will also free these mappers to map the
correct local names.

Yes, the problem that mappers need to decide on a single name for 'the
local name' is definitely an issue, in particular in regions that are
largely multilingual (i.e. where several language have a strong base
and there is no clear primary language) but also if locals specifically
want to serve outside interests.  The way this is currently often
solved by having several names in the name tag is not satisfying.


Case: Papua New Guinea

Number of Local Languages: 800

Official Language: English

The 'local name' may well not match the 'English language' name - leading to 
OSMose error indications.
Of course the local languages overlap area wise, things change names depending 
on who you might talk to and where...

So at the moment I'm inclined to tag thus;

name and name:en as the same ... not nice but officially that is what it is.
BUT use loc_name as the local language name ...
The boundary between 2 languages is fuzzy and changes with time as villages 
move from time to time too.

There is very high probability that the local language has no official 
abbreviated code like en, ru etc. making that less than helpful.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev :

> The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of science,
> and it remains the language of scientific classification. For example,
> Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.
>


Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern languages,
which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin there will be
no doubt about which preference is given (European culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage besides
adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
> not a practical endeavour.
>


maybe there are that many languages in the world, but there isn't
information in all of these languages available in OSM. Anyway, even with
much fewer languages this scale nicely with raster tiles for every
language, but it would work with vector tiles (rendered on the client) or
with a mixture of both (vector tiles only for the names, or some names like
places and countries).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

Vector based rendering is just around the corner, I keep hearing.

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 James :

> That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG
> itself
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:
>
>> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
>> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
>> not a practical endeavour.
>>
>> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>>
>>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which
>>> might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese
>>> words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin
>>> based list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different
>>> opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>>
>>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
>>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا
> for
> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>
> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>

 Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
 non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
 also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

 Best regards,

 Oleksiy


 ___
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 talk@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[James]

That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG
itself

On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:

> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
> not a practical endeavour.
>
> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>
>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
>> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
>> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
>> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
>> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>
>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>>
 [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
 Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

 The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
 (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
 Latin-alphabet). [...]

>>>
>>> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
>>> non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
>>> also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Oleksiy
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

I talked at a conference to a man from UK who, as I understood, 
participates in the hardware work on the OSM servers. I was told that 
multiple layers require too much additional work to be handled by 
volunteers and also additional hardware That it is not 
feasible with the current state of technology.


The intent is not to replace the titles in Japanese, but to add 
additional labels in smaller font in the Latin alphabet. The Latin 
language itself has been for centuries the language of science, and it 
remains the language of scientific classification. For example, Isaac 
Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.


So why not using it for geographical classification too? As soon as 
people see that the Latin version appears on the map as an additional 
label, they will start adding tags in this language. And there will be 
no doubts that a preference is given to a certain country or group of 
countries.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 9/25/2017 12:15 PM, James wrote:
I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which 
might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for 
non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the 
default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there 
would be a different opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other 
list(non-latin)


Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, 
Japanese everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc


On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
> wrote:


On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label
موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]


Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google
translator and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania


Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
not a practical endeavour.

2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :

> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>
> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>
>>> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>>
>>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>>> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>>>
>>
>> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
>> non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
>> also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Oleksiy
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

For the default map having local names everywhere is a strong statement.
The current status is fine (where scripts for the language are supported by
the fonts used in rendering).

Having transliterated / localized versions should only be an optional, if
ressources allow for it. Mixed versions (showing 2 name versions of the
same thing, eg. in different script) aren't a perfect solution either,
because they tend to clutter the map with things you don't need (one of the
2 displayed versions is always superfluous). This is particularly evident
in areas like China, where the local names are usually 2-3 characters
(signs) and the transliterated ones are often 5-10 times as much (e.g.
administrative divisions).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[James]

I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)

Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc

On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
wrote:

> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>
>> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>
>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>>
>
> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to non-Latin
> alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and also in
> Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>
> Best regards,
>
> Oleksiy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]


Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to 
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator 
and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
> indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
> read. Which, I assume, everyone does.

Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want a map 
that...' and 'i want the standard OSM map to...'.

I also do need a map with names i can read everywhere on earth in many 
cases but as you already said this need is mostly quite well served by 
both commercial and non-commercial styles from local communities (like 
the German OSM style).

> I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that
> by only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin
> script but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to
> include a Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even
> use Latin renderings altogether for "name". A future option of
> "display the name you like" will also free these mappers to map the
> correct local names.

Yes, the problem that mappers need to decide on a single name for 'the 
local name' is definitely an issue, in particular in regions that are 
largely multilingual (i.e. where several language have a strong base 
and there is no clear primary language) but also if locals specifically 
want to serve outside interests.  The way this is currently often 
solved by having several names in the name tag is not satisfying.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 9:37 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm :

> ideally I
> want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;)
>
>
>

+1.

And ideally I'd want a map that not only shows cities or countries with
transliterated names where needed, but everything (especially POIs like
historical things, museums, places of worship, mountains, rivers, etc.
which are famous enough to have a name in German or English), while for
roads, public transport etc. it is also nice to be able to see the original
name (because you can recognize it on signs, or show it to local people
when asking about them, etc.).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Christoph,

On 25.09.2017 10:55, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from
>> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names;
>> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them
>> ;)
> 
> While i understand this view and also see you are saying this with a bit 
> of irony it seriously saddens me that apparently a large fraction of 
> the OSM community actually thinks this way and wants the OSMF to invest 
> ressources in a map that is well readable for them rather than a map 
> that represents and communicates the diversity of the global OSM 
> community.

Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
read. Which, I assume, everyone does. But I didn't want to imply that
the OSM web site should be doing that (especially since I'm not its only
 user); I think the OSM web site should continue to use local names
throughout while we technically have to choose a name, and somewhere
down the line the web site should give users a choice which names they
would like to see.

I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that by
only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin script
but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to include a
Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even use Latin
renderings altogether for "name". A future option of "display the name
you like" will also free these mappers to map the correct local names.

Bye
Frederik


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from
> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names;
> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them
> ;)

While i understand this view and also see you are saying this with a bit 
of irony it seriously saddens me that apparently a large fraction of 
the OSM community actually thinks this way and wants the OSMF to invest 
ressources in a map that is well readable for them rather than a map 
that represents and communicates the diversity of the global OSM 
community.

I would want the map to display in a way that is well readable and gives 
good feedback to the *local mappers* everywhere on earth and that gives 
me an impression of the local cultural and geographic particularities 
of the area irrespective of if i can read the names or not.  I would 
want this by default even if technology also offered a 'filter bubble' 
version that shows me the map as i allegedly would want it to see where 
every place on earth looks like my home town.

I also want to cite from the current goals of OSM-Carto:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CARTOGRAPHY.md

"Diversity - The style should represent the diversity of the OSM 
community and geography in general. The most obvious element to serve 
this goal is showing the local names everywhere on earth in their 
respective scripts. This goal however goes beyond labels. Both physical 
and cultural geography differs a lot globally and the aim is to 
represent this variety with equal determination - well mapped areas are 
not supposed to have more weight here than less mapped parts of the 
world. This also means the target map user is the potential global map 
user and no special consideration is given to the current geographic 
distribution of actual map use."

Changing that would mean aiming the map more at the same target as 
commercial map providers, i.e. serving the economically important and 
influential map user groups, giving them what market research tells you 
they want and giving up on the core of what makes the OSM standard 
style unique and forms a significant part of what attracts people to 
OSM.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 24.09.2017 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
> many people.

If you want to go down this route, definitely talk to Sven Geggus, maker
of the openstreetmap.de map style
(https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) which not only displays local
an German names but also makes an effort to automatically transliterate
local names to the Latin alphabet where none is explicitly tagged. You'd
want to implement something similar.

Also note how very letter-heavy such maps can become (look at the names
of the Polish voivodeships which are *already* long and now they're
double - but I see you're only suggesting city and country names so
perhaps you have already seen that the admin 4 entities can be difficult).

But speaking of pragmatism - if I need to decipher something in China I
just use the layer switcher to show Andy's OpenCycleMap and that's good
enough for me.

> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
> now.

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve this
goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. Whatever changes you
will be making then will not come without a downside. Saying "we know
these changes do have some issues but they will enable us to finally
display the map in any language you want" will help you sweeten the deal
then.

Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from Germany
and I don't want a map with all German or all English names; ideally I
want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Yuri Astrakhan]

>
> And vice versa: I always wonder how usable a map in Latin alphabet is for
> Chinese or Russian speakers.


Cannot speak for Chinese, but in Russia, Latin alphabet was taught at the
very early age in school. I think that drawing a map with local names in
Latin font should not cause too many problems.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Maarten Deen]

On 2017-09-24 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Hi all,

I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
the Default map on openstreetmap.org.

This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:


And vice versa: I always wonder how usable a map in Latin alphabet is 
for Chinese or Russian speakers.



From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local


No, of course there should not be a "we're going to do all latin" move. 
But having the map like this and saying "we only put local alphabet on 
the map" is just as much an ideologic viewpoint. You are excluding 
people who do not know the alphabet from using the map.
I for one have long been annoyed by the inability for me to find places 
in countries such as China, Russia, Japan, Korea, Thailand and others 
I'm not remembering. Sure, I can use nominatim and the place will be 
pointed out to me but then I can not read at all what it says. I think 
that in all these years of OSM this could and should have been picked up 
and discussed long ago, but apparently everyone in control of the map 
seems to have the opinion of "local language or bust".


But the issue is also not that simple. I, as a dutch person, do not want 
to see all places in their Dutch translation. There are translations 
ranging from quite common to very obscure that I'm sure are in OSM but 
that I generally do not want to see (Maagdenburg, Brunswijk, Daveren). I 
also do not want the English translations, I'm also not keen on seeing 
names like Brussels or Munich.
So the option would be to give maps in different alphabets and not have 
the names translated. Then again, what is the "non-translated name" of 
Russian or Chinese cities. Is it the English name? Does every place have 
a proper transliterated name?


I think the technical solution is easy: like Eduardo says, make a map 
with a base layer as the map and and overlay with place names.


But to put this point out: for me, Google does it much better than OSM.

Maarten



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

The purpose of the default rendering is to give feedback to mappers.
Preferably local mappers, so having the map rendered in local languages
shouldn't be a problem.

If you want to use OSM data as a tourist use OsmAND or MAPS.ME and set a
language of your choice.

If other projects need tiles for their own purposes/user base, they should
render them to their liking and make them available.

Jo

2017-09-25 7:56 GMT+02:00 Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi <
e.marascal...@gmail.com>:

> my 2 cents:
> having a 2 layers map, one with local languages rendered, the second with
> english ones when present as first choice, then local when not
>
> Il 25 set 2017 7:14 AM, "Yves"  ha scritto:
>
>> If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast
>> audience, I would understand double labeling in English.
>> That not the primary purpose, though.
>> Yves
>>
>> Le 24 septembre 2017 23:01:00 GMT+02:00, Matthijs Melissen <
>> i...@matthijsmelissen.nl> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
>>> the Default map on openstreetmap.org.
>>>
>>> This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
>>> all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
>>> For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>>
>>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>>> Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
>>> is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
>>> people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
>>> Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:
>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330782700
>>> A prominent case of such a request is from the Gnome Maps team, who
>>> decided not to use the Default style for this reason:
>>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764841#c35
>>>
>>> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
>>> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
>>> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
>>> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
>>> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
>>> many people.
>>>
>>> I would be interested to know what others think about this. An option,
>>> for example, would be to display countries names, and perhaps the
>>> names of big cities, in English as well as in the local language.
>>>
>>> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
>>> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
>>> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
>>> now.
>>>
>>> More information on this issue can be found on Github:
>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803
>>>
>>> I'm looking forward to your opinions.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Matthijs Melissen
>>>
>>> --
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi]

my 2 cents:
having a 2 layers map, one with local languages rendered, the second with
english ones when present as first choice, then local when not

Il 25 set 2017 7:14 AM, "Yves"  ha scritto:

> If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast
> audience, I would understand double labeling in English.
> That not the primary purpose, though.
> Yves
>
> Le 24 septembre 2017 23:01:00 GMT+02:00, Matthijs Melissen <
> i...@matthijsmelissen.nl> a écrit :
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
>> the Default map on openstreetmap.org.
>>
>> This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
>> all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
>> For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>
>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>> Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
>> is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
>> people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
>> Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330782700
>> A prominent case of such a request is from the Gnome Maps team, who
>> decided not to use the Default style for this reason:
>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764841#c35
>>
>> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
>> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
>> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
>> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
>> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
>> many people.
>>
>> I would be interested to know what others think about this. An option,
>> for example, would be to display countries names, and perhaps the
>> names of big cities, in English as well as in the local language.
>>
>> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
>> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
>> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
>> now.
>>
>> More information on this issue can be found on Github:
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803
>>
>> I'm looking forward to your opinions.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Matthijs Melissen
>>
>> --
>>
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Yves]

If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast 
audience, I would understand double labeling in English. 
That not the primary purpose, though. 
Yves 

Le 24 septembre 2017 23:01:00 GMT+02:00, Matthijs Melissen 
 a écrit :
>Hi all,
>
>I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
>the Default map on openstreetmap.org.
>
>This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
>all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
>For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>
>The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
>is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
>people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
>Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:
>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330782700
>A prominent case of such a request is from the Gnome Maps team, who
>decided not to use the Default style for this reason:
>https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764841#c35
>
>From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
>preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
>language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
>pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
>addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
>many people.
>
>I would be interested to know what others think about this. An option,
>for example, would be to display countries names, and perhaps the
>names of big cities, in English as well as in the local language.
>
>Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
>something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
>significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
>now.
>
>More information on this issue can be found on Github:
>https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803
>
>I'm looking forward to your opinions.
>
>Kind regards,
>Matthijs Melissen
>
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[OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Matthijs Melissen]

Hi all,

I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
the Default map on openstreetmap.org.

This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330782700
A prominent case of such a request is from the Gnome Maps team, who
decided not to use the Default style for this reason:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764841#c35

From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
many people.

I would be interested to know what others think about this. An option,
for example, would be to display countries names, and perhaps the
names of big cities, in English as well as in the local language.

Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
now.

More information on this issue can be found on Github:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803

I'm looking forward to your opinions.

Kind regards,
Matthijs Melissen

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