Devin Asay wrote:
At the same time Rev provided us a way to migrate our older HyperCard
and Toolbook custom apps to a new, single-track code base.
When Chipp and I were manning the Rev booth at WWDC we had a chance to
do real-time HyperCard conversion: a fella came by the booth with
questions a
Hi folks,
I've been following the discussion about Rev as a tool for educational
s/w development. One of the perhaps overlooked uses of Rev in the
educational setting is as an easy-to-learn, non-threatening environment
for teaching programming concepts to non-techies. We teach just such a
cours
At 4:31 PM -0400 11/8/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Perhaps another educational use of Rev-based products would be exploratory
learning... then assessed, perhaps, by the dreaded m/c questions
Judy
Exactly! While assessment can drive learning, there is more to
teaching and learning than tests ;-)
I
Marielle Lange wrote:
Do you know of konfabulator (http://www.konfabulator.com/)? They are
highly succesfull despite the fact that they are exactly the opposite...
limited potential but dramatic shop-window full of jaw dropping little
time-savers or friendly desktop fillers (yes, most of them ar
Marielle wrote:
I suspect that your decision to develop a less expensive player is
a step in that direction. But its not a good option for a lecturer who
cannot ask each one of his students to buy a player to benefit from the
courseware material he has developed.
I have not paid very close
Not only in teaching programming but in designing custom
educational courseware. Who wants the student to have ONLY simple
multiple-guess questions to work with?
Life doesn't come with a series of four exclusive-or questions
tattooed across it, so why give student this unrealistic view of
the
One thing I make extensive use of is check boxes. This allows you to
ask relatively open-ended fact questions. For example, present a
clinical vignette and ask "out of this list of 9 diagnoses which could
cause this clinical picture (ie what is your differential diagnosis at
this point)"; st
Indeed!
Perhaps another educational use of Rev-based products would be exploratory
learning... then assessed, perhaps, by the dreaded m/c questions
Judy
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> Marian Petrides wrote:
>
> > Not only in teaching programming but in designing custom educational
It would seem courseware in this context implies primarily evaluation,
not teaching/learning. Students would need to have control of the
reins in Revolution to create content that would show learning had
occurred. But then you have the PowerPoint multimedia slide show model
as a result, most
Marian Petrides wrote:
Not only in teaching programming but in designing custom educational
courseware. Who wants the student to have ONLY simple multiple-guess
questions to work with?
Life doesn't come with a series of four exclusive-or questions tattooed
across it, so why give student this un
On 7/8/04 2:27 pm, "Stephen King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Speech capability seems to have vanished from the PC as far as I can see and
> media playing is still restricted if QT is not installed. It has been
> mentioned many times on the list that typical users of Rev products would be
> teach
> an organized place for things like
> release announcements, Plat-x issues, Heather news, etc...
! This made me laugh. Heather news? Is that like the weather, only about a
creeping heath plant? "Today the heather is growing well on the mountains,
och aye indeed, and will be blooming in the gloami
The inherent value proposition for Rev as a pro development tool is
demonstrably high, and after 14 years there are sufficient examples
to make a compelling case.
If the case is not immediately compelling today, what changes could
be made at the RunRev site and lesser marketing materials to mak
Richard,
> Beyond that, what other things might help make the value of choosing Rev
> more self-evident?
>
> The value's there. The problem isn't the tool, it's communicating what
> the tool has already accomplished.
RR is like a cult - much like ska music - it has a worldwide following,
it's ex
Dan Shafer wrote:
On Aug 7, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Ken Ray wrote:
*Here* is where Rev (and other tools of its ilk) *can* make inroads. All
that it takes is enough compelling evidence that RunRev isn't going
anywhere, that the underlying engine has been around for a decade, and
that
it is the most effic
Chipp Walters wrote:
Dan Shafer wrote:
I reiterate what I said earlier today in this very interesting
discussion. I do not believe Rev has any serious chance of making
significant inroads into the professional development community on ANY
platform, and certainly not on Windows or (moreso?) on *n
--- Ken Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/7/04 10:57 PM, "Chipp Walters"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I take both InfoWorld and EWeek. Both have had
> multiple articles about
> > the 'disenfranchisment' (is that a word?) of VB
> developers with .NET
>
> This is more I think about VB dev
Dan wrote
>I reiterate what I said earlier today in this very interesting
>discussion. I do not believe Rev has any serious chance of making
>significant inroads into the professional development community on ANY
>platform, and certainly not on Windows or (moreso?) on *nix. It will
>always
On 08.08.2004, at 05:16, Dan Shafer wrote:
I reiterate what I said earlier today in this very interesting
discussion. I do not believe Rev has any serious chance of making
significant inroads into the professional development community on ANY
platform, and certainly not on Windows or (moreso?) o
Ken Ray wrote:
On 8/7/04 10:57 PM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I take both InfoWorld and EWeek. Both have had multiple articles about
the 'disenfranchisment' (is that a word?) of VB developers with .NET
This is more I think about VB developers not wanting to go to .NET because
it r
On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:23 PM, Wolfgang M.Bereuter wrote:
Dan, why do they not listen to you at RR?
They do. They don't always agree, but they do listen. Kevin and I have
fairly regular dialog on these subjects.
~~
Dan Shafer, Revolutionary
Author of "Revol
On Aug 7, 2004, at 11:10 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
One thing I do think should be made clear though: RR is a PROFESSIONAL
LEVEL DEVELOPMENT TOOL. There are those of us (including you) who make
a living writing professional code using RR. I only mention this so
others (perhaps undecided) who read
On Aug 8, 2004, at 2:10 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:
One thing I do think should be made clear though: RR is a PROFESSIONAL
LEVEL DEVELOPMENT TOOL. There are those of us (including you) who make
a living writing professional code using RR. I only mention this so
others (perhaps undecided) who read t
On 07.08.2004, at 19:19, Dan Shafer wrote:
At the end of the day, RR has to find niches where cross-platform
development is important or even critical. Those niches exist. But
they are not mainstream programmers on either platform (and certainly
not on *nix, whose developers seem to prefer Open
Dan Shafer wrote:
I reiterate what I said earlier today in this very interesting
discussion. I do not believe Rev has any serious chance of making
significant inroads into the professional development community on ANY
platform, and certainly not on Windows or (moreso?) on *nix. It will
always
On 07.08.2004, at 08:15, Chipp Walters wrote:
Also, we can easily see where HyperCard, SuperCard and other
'Mac-centric' authoring environments have ended up. I think it's
eventually in RR's best interest to focus on other platforms, else the
find themselves in the same situation as the other la
Dan -
I have given training in the computer field since the 1960s (even in
Scotland!), and from what I can see and judge, the difficulty with your book
sales probably has nothing to do with their quality. Leaving diagnoses
aside, there is no doubt in my mind that since a Programmer's Guide is
urge
On Aug 7, 2004, at 4:20 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:
(2) if Dan gets run over by a dinosaur, how easy will it be for me to
find another Rev developer?
I agree that this is a stumbling block. Seems to me that a good way to
deal with this is to have RunRev develop a code escrow replacement
programmer kin
I agree, Dan...
Unfortuantely, for the win market, it seems to be a chicken and the egg
sort of thing: universities will only teach the MS stuff they are given
because (a) it's free (or all but) and (b) 'it's what everybody uses in
industry'. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I remember whe
On 8/7/04 10:57 PM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I take both InfoWorld and EWeek. Both have had multiple articles about
> the 'disenfranchisment' (is that a word?) of VB developers with .NET
This is more I think about VB developers not wanting to go to .NET because
it represents a
Hi Ken,
I take both InfoWorld and EWeek. Both have had multiple articles about
the 'disenfranchisment' (is that a word?) of VB developers with .NET
And you know the last version of VB before .NET will no soon no longer
be supported.
The latest I've heard from Chris, who stays on top of this stu
Dan Shafer wrote:
(1) how
long will the company (RunRev) be around; and
Good question. Well, let's see, the engine has been around for 10 years.
You know the rest. Besides, how long is VB around for? Currently MS is
still providing minor tech support, and no bug fixes. So, you need to
rewrite
Chipp.
You make some good points but they aren't really counters to my
thoughts. Rather they are sort of orthogonal segues.
I did not mean to say or imply that I wish Rev would simply stop
supporting other platforms. That would make their program useless to me
as an OS X developer. What I s
On 8/7/04 10:06 PM, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not to mention all of the alienated VB programmers MS created when it
> dumped VB in favor of .NET. And now they're getting rid of VB all together!
Really? Could you provide a link where you saw that? Just curious...
Ken Ray
Sons o
Bob
Thanks for the vote of support!
There is not much chance I will "slip through RunRevs fingers" although
I will admit to *some* small degree of frustration at the very low
numbers of people who have bought my first volume in any form. I don't
think this says anything other than the commun
Couldn't agree with you more. I think it's a function of HyperCard
leading the way-- and Apples 'leading-edge' effect. MS is like Dell. You
rarely see innovation there first, only after someone else has
'validated' the technology.
Though, I guess, MS is getting better, and one could say their a
Dan Shafer wrote:
Chipp.
You knew I'd have to chime in here. :-)
Not simply to be contrarian, but I do not believe RR has any serious
chance of making real inroads into other platforms. Period.
Dan,
Chiming back atcha! Dan, you do make a compelling argument, but I
suggest 3 components wh
Dear List members,
I have just posted the following to Kevin:
What some people are saying on the List at this moment confirms what I
pointed out in my notes: Windows programmers (about 90% of the market?) can
easily be scared away by the MAC dominance of RunRev and its community/
lieutenants. All
> While I think that's fundamentally true, it's also true that they look
> at total cost of ownership. And the big question that *I* hear when I
> propose to use Revolution to do a project centers on the question of
> long-term maintenance. That question, in turn, has two parts: (1) how
> long will
Ken
Good observations based (obviously) on experience. You may be right,
though I wonder how easily this kind of market is located and tapped.
Other comments below.
On Aug 7, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Ken Ray wrote:
However, I would disagree with you when it comes to the
small-to-medium-sized busine
On 8/7/04 12:19 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chipp.
>
> You knew I'd have to chime in here. :-)
>
> Not simply to be contrarian, but I do not believe RR has any serious
> chance of making real inroads into other platforms.
Dan, you make a very compelling argument about
On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:
Chipp.
You knew I'd have to chime in here. :-)
Not simply to be contrarian, but I do not believe RR has any serious
chance of making real inroads into other platforms. ...
Brilliant!
Mark
__
Le 7 août 04, à 20:18, Dan Shafer a écrit :
They're using Java almost exclusively for server-side stuff these
days; very few new apps are being written in pure Java for xplat
deployment.
And on the server-side, Java is only usable to code WEB / EAI
applications servers, mainly not as is in core
On Aug 7, 2004, at 3:12 PM, MisterX wrote:
While looking at some graphic functions theory and how to translate,
Actionscript, java to TS, I noticed that the 3D in Flash is simply
anymations
made in Swivel3D. The rest is just smart line handling.
This is true, Flash is not much of a 3D environment..
> [snip] For me, the one big failing in
> Revolution is and always will be its lack of object orientation. But I
> remain willing to forego that lack in return for the ability to develop
> Windows apps without having to use Windows all day to do it.
Dan,
That's just a matter of algorithmic a
Troy,
> coding. If that could be strengthened with more graphics functionality
> (both 2D and 3D) I probably wouldn't bother looking around, or needing
> to constantly switch tools based on project requirements.
While looking at some graphic functions theory and how to translate,
Actionscript, j
Thanks for this debate, Dan and Chipp,
Best Regards, Pierre
Le 7 août 04, à 19:19, Dan Shafer a écrit :
Chipp.
You knew I'd have to chime in here. :-)
Not simply to be contrarian, but I do not believe RR has any serious
chance of making real inroads into other platforms. Period. No matter
Did speech recognition continue on the mac btw?
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Judy Perry
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 19:42
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
&
On Aug 7, 2004, at 2:18 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:
BTW, in my earlier too-long contribution to this dialog, I neglected
to say that if I were writing apps for OS X only, I'd probably be
inclined to learn and use Objective C and XCode.
XCode is *almost* enough to make me want to be a Mac-only developer
Troy.
On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:55 AM, Troy Rollins wrote:
So far as I can see, the only way to develop X-plat using a single
code-base with XCode would be to do so in Java, and I'm not sure I'm
interested in that route.
Don't get caught in THAT trap. I have several friends who are serious
Java
On Aug 7, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:
At the end of the day, RR has to find niches where cross-platform
development is important or even critical. Those niches exist. But
they are not mainstream programmers on either platform (and certainly
not on *nix, whose developers seem to prefer Op
Indeed, why hasn't speech on Windows been fixed yet? Hasn't it been a year
or more?
Judy
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Stephen King wrote:
> Speech capability seems to have vanished from the PC as far as I can see and
> media playing is still restricted if QT is not installed.
_
The support of multiple sound channels, I've been told...
Judy
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Alex Tweedly wrote:
> Would you agree with that ? Which Mac features are missing ? Are they
> missing because of the multi-platform nature ?
___
use-revolution mailing
On Aug 7, 2004, at 2:15 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:
And remember, both Flash and Director found some success on PC's, and
originally shipped with an Xtalk language.
This is mostly true, though Flash never really had an XTalk language,
it had a unique (and very basic) scripting language which quickly
Chipp.
You knew I'd have to chime in here. :-)
Not simply to be contrarian, but I do not believe RR has any serious
chance of making real inroads into other platforms. Period. No matter
what they do. Over the decades -- yes, decades! -- I've been in this
business, I bet I've seen 100 or
At 09:37 07/08/2004 -0400, Richard Gaskin wrote:
Indeed the productivity benefits are hard to match, and I've seen no
reasoned argument describing something more productive.
Agreed - though I would guess that, for me, Revolution is less than half as
productive than it *should* be. It's held back b
serve
> Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
>
> Ahhh... The 2 dimensional world looking for the first time at the 3
> dimensional world that has existed for 20 years... Welcome.
>
> on 8/7/04 3:15 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:
>
> > Troy,
> >
> > Goo
rday, August 07, 2004 15:37
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
>
> MisterX wrote:
>
> > To win over PC users, it would be nice to have the features of flash and
> > java... RunRev definitely has the quality look required. Bu
At 23:47 06/08/2004 -0400, Troy Rollins wrote:
On Aug 6, 2004, at 5:54 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote:
I did find the Mac-orientation of Revolution a bit off-putting at first.
Hypercard (and Applescript, and QT and ...) are mentioned so often, and
so much discussion includes Mac mentions, that I did won
] Behalf Of Chipp
> Walters
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 08:16
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
>
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Troy,
Good points, all. But I also believe there is too much 'Mac' centric
focus in RR. The GUI is completely Mac based, and so is much of the
marketing focus. Though, this does represent the 'low-hanging fruit', RR
won't ever truly make inroads onto other platforms w/out a concerted
marketing
Troy
That is one of the best, most cogent, clear pieces of explanation of
this phenomenon that I've seen. I've been saying this for a lot of
years. It seems quite clear to me that you're right, but there are
still people who don't see it our way!
Dan
On Aug 6, 2004, at 5:54 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote:
I did find the Mac-orientation of Revolution a bit off-putting at
first. Hypercard (and Applescript, and QT and ...) are mentioned so
often, and so much discussion includes Mac mentions, that I did wonder
initially just how "cross-platform" Rev wou
Richard
Of course if RevPro gets enough market traction (i.e., a large enough
installed base) then a publisher would be interested. As of now, it
seems to me that it is far more likely that Dreamcard will achieve that
level of market penetration sooner because it is going to be sold in a
mo
At 18:02 06/08/2004 +0200, MisterX wrote:
However, spending dire marketing money on the ADC is IMOHO a big
waste. What is 20 users when you can have double that with
a single post in Slashdot.org (/.) alone! Oh, I almost forgot, it's
free and revisitable... However RunRev has not made much talk
My suspicion is that the key phrase in all this is "[w]hen...the
software is available in stores." I wonder whether any thought has
been given to marketing Rev through mail order/online shops as well as
brick and mortar shops>
On Aug 6, 2004, at 3:41 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
Dan Shafer wrote:
Dan Shafer wrote:
I'm afraid the bookstore route is closed to us for the moment. When
Dreamcard gets enough traction and the software is available in stores,
we may be able to convince some specialty places like Fry's to carry it,
but mainstream bookstores aren't likely to touch it unless it com
On Friday, August 6, 2004, at 10:32 AM, MisterX wrote:
hu... being slashdotted is not fun...
but it's a sign of power marketing... ;)
besides, with a clear description, this could be avoided.
I dont click on all the website links I see in slashdot.
being slashdoted usually comes with having big
?
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andre
> Garzia
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 18:55
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: OT (Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely)
>
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2004, at 1:45
Ready when you are Kevin ;)
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of sims
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 18:46
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
>
> >O
On Aug 6, 2004, at 1:45 PM, sims wrote:
Actually, if the EuroRevCon web page did get slashdoted I hope
it goes down immediately as the server fees would bankrupt me.
No joke there.
So I must ask CmdrTaco not to publish the note I sent ten minutes ago?
*grin*
:D
Andre
--
Andre Alves Garzia 2004
So
Well, based on an n of 1, if it weren't for the sidebar ad on macnn
(or was it macintouch?), I never would have heard of Rev.
On Aug 6, 2004, at 12:02 PM, MisterX wrote:
Separately, in RunRev's case, I dont know how much /. banner ads
cost but surely their success have to worth the money more th
On Aug 6, 2004, at 1:02 PM, MisterX wrote:
However, spending dire marketing money on the ADC is IMOHO a big
waste. What is 20 users when you can have double that with
a single post in Slashdot.org (/.) alone! Oh, I almost forgot, it's
free and revisitable... However RunRev has not made much tal
Sims,
No doubt, the EuroRevCon is a great way for us to get together, and
buy discounted autographed books from our favority author. ;)
No kidding, I still pride my HC handbook 2.0!
I got 3 HC books and Dan's the one that got the most leafing! ;)
However, spending dire marketing money on the ADC is
On Aug 6, 2004, at 1:02 PM, MisterX wrote:
However, spending dire marketing money on the ADC is IMOHO a big
waste. What is 20 users when you can have double that with
a single post in Slashdot.org (/.) alone! Oh, I almost forgot, it's
free and revisitable... However RunRev has not made much tal
Of sims
> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 17:15
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: RE: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
>
> >Why not put an announcement in
> >
> >DDJ.com
> >slashdot.org
> >?
> >Both put in articles for books about programmi
On Friday, August 6, 2004, at 08:30 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:
First, fulfillment is still out of Edinburgh, which drives the cost of
the book very high.
International shipping costs are almost a deal killer.
Second, to the extent that we enter into new contractual distribution
deals we cloud the poss
On Aug 6, 2004, at 7:10 AM, Mark Brownell wrote:
On Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 09:33 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:
Convincing a book distributor that Revolution has as much appeal to
the unwashed masses as iTunes?
Good luck with that one.
--
Troy
Amazon.com has a small publisher section that would al
pter and doesn't want to wait for the other
volumes to be finished en masse.
I will communicate with you offlist about your membership.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark
Brownell
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 10:11 AM
To: How
I'm afraid the bookstore route is closed to us for the moment. When
Dreamcard gets enough traction and the software is available in stores,
we may be able to convince some specialty places like Fry's to carry
it, but mainstream bookstores aren't likely to touch it unless it comes
from a major p
Why not put an announcement in
DDJ.com
slashdot.org
?
Both put in articles for books about programming and
have a wide audience of ahem, geeks...
Little is known or mentioned of RR or MC or hypercard anymore
but Wired.com has run articles on it in the past.
Surely a small article in each will draw
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 10:39 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
On Friday, August 6, 2004, at 07:19 AM, Dave LeYanna wrote:
> Is his book "self-published"? ,
> if so I can help save some costs because I am a
> partner in a Pri
On Friday, August 6, 2004, at 07:19 AM, Dave LeYanna wrote:
Is his book "self-published"? ,
if so I can help save some costs because I am a
partner in a Printing On Demand publisher. We do ISBN and everything
including a listing in "Books in Print". I'm sure that I'm cheaper
than anyone else.
to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
>
>
>
> On Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 09:33 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:
>
> > Convincing a book distributor that Revolution has as much appeal to
> > the unwashed masses as iTunes?
> >
> > Goo
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Brownell
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 10:11 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Plea to sell Dan's book widely
On Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 09:33 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:
> Convincing a book distributor that Revolution has as much appeal to
> the unwash
On Thursday, August 5, 2004, at 09:33 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:
Convincing a book distributor that Revolution has as much appeal to
the unwashed masses as iTunes?
Good luck with that one.
--
Troy
Amazon.com has a small publisher section that would allow Dan /
Revolution to sell his book from the A
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