>This shows what happens if you don't legislate to require metric only. They
>do it to make it look cheaper, that's why the price/lb is so large compared
>with price/kg
You don't need to require metric only. For example, The EU requirement is that
the metric units are *required* and the imperi
>My point was not that I am advocating that all Americans should change to
>the 'metre' spelling but rather the use of two different spellings comes to
>us all at a considerable cost.
But is this cost really necessary ? The most important point about the
differences between American and British
>Not precisely.
>If safety is not the issue but convenience is then parity between the
>systems should be allowed to exist.
>
>Road signs are a different kettle of fish.
Road *speed* signs certainly, but what is the possible safety impact
of having intercity *distance* signs in either or both uni
>You also have to make it a criminal offense to change metric signs back to
>imperial, or else anything gained by the Irish experience as far as cost is
>concern will be voided.
It already is a criminal offense to interfere with signs. However, the
fact that the signs were illegal themselves m
>The gradual replacement of distance signs strategy was the way it was done
>in Ireland. I believe it was planned to take 6 years but in the event it
>took 8
The decision to metricate was made in 1992. The original deadline for
road signs was 1995. Road speed signs were completed in early 2005
>The drive to preserve the 'hand' is a drive to protect the word 'hand' as a
>symbol that the user is part of the 'in' crowd of horse person's who
>understands the jargon of horses;
Surely there is a very simple solution to the hand. Simply replace it
by the decimeter, that way the numbers don't
> ...It is illegal to display a
> price per yard. It must be priced per metre.
Are you 100% sure of this ? Is it not the case that a price per yard
would be perfectly legal if displayed as a "supplemental indicator" ?
My understanding of the law in the UK (and I am open to correction) is
that wh
>The problem can be reduced to ZERO tollerence if CGPM & CCDM (SI-comittee on
>Metre) made the use of *spellings for Length Unit, METRE* mandatory wherever
>length is required to be mentioned by ALL NATIONS.
With respect, this is pure nonsense. The spe
>Regardless of the metric banter on this issue, on behalf of the US
>members of this list (If I may be so bold to do so) I send our deepest
>sympathies an concern to our British friends on this list.
I would also like to add my sympathies and support to the UK members
(on both sides of the metric
>The state's official politics is socialism.
If so, then this must be because the people elected a socialist
government.
>I am not a socialist. I don't like socialism
Nor do I.
So by your logic, people who don't like socialist policies should
be free to choose which laws they obey (e.g. pay t
>However, let me make my view perfectly clear - when it comes to the
>butcher's shop or the green grocer I believe that both systems should be
>used with no preference to either on offer. The preference should be left
>entirely with the customer.
So in the interest of clarity, do you condemn o
>This is still a play on words.
No, it's not. He could have sold a pound of bananas without breaking
the law, therefore you can't say this what why he was prosecuted. Now,
if the law had banned the use of imperial units completely, then you
would be correct, as using those units would have inevi
>>- a trader was convicted of selling a pound of bananas
>This is really open to interpretation!
No it isn't. It is simply a lie.
> ...Whichever way you try to spin it the
>man in question was ultimately convicted because he used lbs and oz instead
>of kg and g. What you are doing is using s
>There are over 10 times as many people in the UK as Ireland
>However - the road network in Ireland, out side major cities like Dublin) is
>mainly horse laden rural lanes.
I know that rural roads are generally narrower, but I'm highly amused
that you would think that horse drawn traffic is common
>The house of Lords is there as a check.
A check is a good idea, and a bicameral legislature is common in
many democracies. The problem with an unelected body is that it is
not accountable to anyone, and in the case of the House of Lords simply
represents a privileged class.
>Are you aware that
>This is very good proof that parliament is increasingly out of step with the
>public.
Well, first of all, if you include in your political system a legislative
assembly (House of Lords) whose members are not elected *at all*, then
you can hardly complain that it is not representative of the publ
>I love this "baddyizing" of imperial units (FFU, "Colonial". smelly(?))
I agree that terms like FFU are purely derogatory. "Colonial" on the other
hand ("British Colonial" to give it its full name) has some historic accuracy.
It is incorrect to call the system of measurement in use in the US "I
>Seriously! Think about it! When did you last look at the deleivered gallons
>or litres to get a whole number? Would you put in 10 litres and hand over
>eight pounds and thirty nine pence?
>
>Or put in ten pounds worth?
I put in an exact amount of liters (usually 50). Since I pay with a
credit
>Please don't advertise that the UK is really really metric - from a
>pro-metric US person's perspective it's misleadingly encouraging - for a
>pro-imperial or pro-choice person it just looks silly.
The UK is *much* more metricated than the US. I sometimes feel that
metrication is still not co
>Here lies a good question that usually catches the enforcement brigade out:-
>Why did this happen?
>Some might say that 'it was all imperial's fault - if they hadn't have used
>imperial this would never had happen'
>That's plain daft - as you could easily (and equally wrongly) substitute
>'imper
>I agree that its bad practice to mix the two AT THE SAME TIME. Like 4 miles
>and 200 metres. However I reserve the right to pick and choose whatever
>measure I feel fit for the application I need it for for that point in time
>- whether that be litres, millimetres, inches or pints.
>The UKMA s
>Throw this little bit at your senior engineer. Enacted July 28, 1866.
>
>http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/laws/metric-act.html
>
>
>Text of the law
>The Act was codified as 15 USC 204 et seq., shown below.
>
>U.S. Code
>Title 15
>Commerce and Trade
>Chapter 6
>Weights and Measures and Standard
>Yoiks - it appears that Irish schools retained the teaching of
>'evolved-out' units more than British Schools.
Lest I have given a misleading impression, I remember being taught imperial
units in primary [grade?] school. I entered secondary [high] school in
1970, and that was the year they switc
>Like most traditional measures, £sd was a sophisticated system
>constructed to enable mathematically adept people (using precious
>metal currency) to make quick calculations and estimates in their
>heads.
ROTLF. It *required* an unnecessary level of adeptness to make mental
calculations. A deci
>If a minister, or someone from the treasury, were to suggest that such
>and such billion pounds were going to be used to change the UK road
>signs for no apparent reason than to "be just like Europe" then their
>head would be on the block.
Firstly, "billion" (even an American billion) would seem
>Wishful thinking I'm afraid
>
>First, Scotland is part of the UK.
It would make no sense for Scotland to introduce metric signs in advance
of the rest of Britain. There is more an argument for Northern Ireland's
doing so, as it has a land border with us rather than with Great Britain,
and is le
>However, as I think you tried to point out - its her editorial, or point
>of view, and not necessarily the opinion of Northern Irelanders or the
>Belfast Telegraph.
True, but it is significant that the Telegraph is one of the most influential
papers in Northern Ireland. It is also a pro-Unionist
>>"was the main issue why was there ABSOLUTELY NOBODY suggesting that
>>distance signs be converted to miles ?"
>
>I don't believe it formed part of the question.
In fairness, it didn't. However, despite frequent references in the last
few years to the fact that our distance and speed units were
>I think that the most stupid thing was having speed in mph and distances
>in km. I reckon the survey would have yeilded much different results if
>both speed and distance were changed from one to another at the same
>time.
I doubt it (see more below). A
>What about bridge height restrictions? Is it true they will remain in
>imperial, and if so, for how long?
Bridge heights will continue to be in dual metric and imperial. Older
imperial only signs will be replaced by dual (not by the 2005-01-20 deadline
which refers only to speed signs).
-
>The BWMA wants parity between units - there's no issue if people want to
>choose metres, or feet. The issue is with coercion. BWMA has supported
>a pro-metric business before.
Sorry, but this is simply not true. If the BWMA were really in favor of
choice, they would be encouraging dual pricin
>If anyone would like to know why 350yds was added to the 26 milee then
>I'm more than happy to oblige.
I would wager that it has something to do with Britain's only fetish that
is more illogical and more backward-looking than its system of measurement:
the institution of Monarchy.
:-)
-
>change.>>
>
>That's an interesting point - were they 'at pains' because they didn't
>see the need to convert or because they didn't want to appear to agree
>with the govt?
My use of a possibly archaic phrase might have been misle
>It would be handy to see if there is a survey of how many people in
>Ireland supported the changing of speed limit signs to metric using tax
>payers money.
I would be interested to see such a poll. Firstly, given that a majority felt
that 2 weeks was enough time for campaign (when I myself would
>It's a nit, I know, but there's no such entity as CADOT. It's Caltrans
>(which you need to know if you're going to do a Google search, for example).
Apologies. Subject corrected.
>My sense of it is that it's a complete reversion. A Google search on
>Caltrans metric provides the following link t
>Presumably the various radio stations and TV stations around Ireland are
>independent of state agencies such as the Met office - how would all the
>stations be forced to use km/h? Surely some might say something like
>"...wind speeds of 100 km/h, that's about 60 mph".
Well, there are not that m
Another welcome change due next week is the final piece of metrication for
our weather reporting.
The Met Office TV bulletins report rainfall in mm and atmospheric pressure in
hPa, but wind speeds have remained stubbornly in MPH for some years. An
article in todays Irish Times (reported below) st
>I find it extremely hard to believe that the Irish public have
>absolutely no knowledge at all of metric. Surely they have been taught
>metric at school?
I started secondary [high] school in 1970, the first year that the
curriculum changed to metric. Since that date, all Irish students are
edu
>With the conversion of Irish road speed and distance signs to be completed by
>2005-01-20, what is left to convert?
>
>Are the any hold-outs still in imperial? If so, what is being done to close
>the loop holes?
The main legal hold-out is beer dispensed from pumps in bars. This is still
done in
>The BWMA is playing down this change by whining about how much bigger the UK is
>population wise compared to Eire and if anything, the UK imperial usage will be
>more a thorn in Eire's side then in the reverse.
They do have a point about the relative size. The population of the Irish
Republic i
>Do Irish and British cars currently display a dual
>speedometer (large MPH and small km/h)
Yes.
> ... and if so,
>will Ireland switch to the opposite or will newly
>sold cars in Ireland have km/h only?
They will have km/h only, in keeping with most other EU countries.
>The other questin would
>BTW, since you track this business of metric speed limit signs so well, by
>when do the signs (or are they using decals?) have to be manufactured and
>delivered to the Department of Transport to meet the end of January 2005
>deadline for conversion?
As mentioned in 31272, of the 59 000 signs prod
I was disappointed to see Seamus Brennan moved from the Dept of Transport
during the last reshuffle (he is now Minister for Social Welfare, which is
seen as a demotion). Although he had a habit of making public announcements
of initiatives long before they were implemented (rather like Microsoft
M
> http://www.angelfire.com/ok4/iaml/
>Isn't angelfire a Canadian web service and Network 54 American? I find it odd
>that the BWMA and the IAML host their sites outside of their home base. Now,
>why is that?
Quite simple. It's much cheaper than over here, where bandwidth is
traditionally m
>The part the interested me especially is that SI was used to express
>distance on the motorway, including what looks like a direct quote from
>a public official.
Actually, official announcements like this are pretty much always in metric.
The Dept of Transport and the NRA (*) are pretty good on
Greetings,
The Minister for Transport today announced that January 20th 2005 will be the
changeover day for road speed signs.
The original date was to have been this month, but this was delayed
because legislation did not pass in time for the summer recess.
The Minister's statement refer
>Does that include the remnant of distance signs in miles or other units to
>kilometres and metres?
No the deadline for the distance signs is 2005-12-31, which might also have
led to the confusion.
>Do you have any idea how many signs there are in miles vs. kilometres still?
No idea, but only ve
>P.S. I noted also the reference in the article to the Irish Republic's
>planned conversion to metric signage to be completed by the END of 2005.
>Does the BBC know something we haven't seen reported elsewhere?
Most likely a typo. The legal deadline is end of 2004. If that does slip,
it is unlik
>Metric speed changeover accelerates as deadline is set for December
>
>Irish Independent
>Thursday September 2nd 2004
Since I don't get the Independent, I never saw this.
It is quite possible that they are planning to do this by December 1st.
They told me their target was by "end of November". b
The Dept of Transport will still not commit to a date when they will effect
the changeover of speed signs. Until they do that, there won't be any
public awareness campaigns.
The current unofficial aim is for November 2004, and legislation is currently
going before the house.
The main deadline is
>Because the two messages have the same USMA message number, the problem is
>at the list server.
Not necessarily. It means the problem is either at *or after* the list
server.
I have not received any duplicates, which suggests it's not the list server
itself.
The way to track where the duplicat
> ...If someone mentions hands, we will laugh and say: "Stupid idiot,
>horses don't have hands, they have hooves".
Never miss the chance to point out the absurdity of a system that measures
the height of horses in hands, and the height of humans in feet.
--
>I agree that Tom's suggested reasons for having additional prefixes
>close to the base value (his a and b above) are valid arguments to do
>it, but I do not believe that is the reason it was done. I believe the
>original metric system was intended to have a new prefix for every
>additional pow
>If millimeters can be used for monorail vehicles which are 3150 mm wide and the
>girders which measure 8378 mm wide, why doesn't the clothing industry use
>millimeters since clothing measurements are much smaller than the monorail
>vehicles and tracks? It doesn't make sense to use centimeters for
>However, I have done so based on simple observations of how people change
>from old measures to metric units. If they use millimetres, the change is
>smooth, rapid, and orderly; if they choose centimetres, the change is rough
>(with much reverting backwards and converting to old measures), slow
>(
>But SI is already "prejudiced against prefixes that aren't a power of
>1000". There are 20 SI prefixes. A full 16 of them are powers of 1000;
>only 4 are not. If the in-between prefixes are so mightily useful and
>so darned convenient, why don't we have prefixes for ALL the powers of
>ten (se
>No, that's not the main advantage of the litre. The main (only?)
>advantage to the litre is that it is a convenient size for ordinary
household uses,
I will concede 'main' but not 'only' as I still maintain that the familiar
relationship between ml, cl & L to be a useful feature.
>But I am not
>I don't believe anything I wrote earlier contradicted what you wrote
>below. Specifically I do not believe I said that the litre is
>deprecated for non-precision use. I said that I understood it to be
>advisable not to use the SI prefixes with litre; for example, since
>1000 L = 1 m^3, therefo
>You need to write to them and ask them what all of this will mean come
>September when all speed limits on Irish roads are not only metricated, but
>converted to rounded metric values.
The 50 MPH limit will become 80 km/h.
Incidentally, the expected date is now the October bank holiday weekend (
>While #1 is certainly true and is a very important advantage of metric,
>it is NOT THE ONLY simplification that the metric system provides. The
>other simplification is one appreciated more by scientists, but is
>significantly more important.
>
>That other advantage is the one usually identifie
>Hello in the States if you go to UPS or fedex and you want to send a package to
>Europe or any other metric country wouldn't they weigh the package in lbs
>because the country of origin is the states and they use pounds for weighing
>packages?
I get regular shipments of computer equipment from
>Most European countries don't have church/state separation. England is the
>worst offender, in that the Queen is the head of the Church of England and
>the Prime Minister is the one who appoints Bishops (presumably with royal
>assent).
It varies a bit. France has pretty good separation, includin
>When the speeds change in Ireland in Sept. 04 it is only for southern Ireland
>isn't it?
Correct. Speed signs in Northern Ireland are specified by the UK Dept of
Transport.
Warning signs alerting drivers to the different units used will
be placed on the main border roads, and at ferry ports.
>Marcus, why on Earth should someone be obligated to give you information if you
>are not willing to help pay for the cost of gathering and distributing the
>information?
In fairness to Marcus, he was requesting information not for his own personal
benefit, but to help with the "common cause" whi
>1. The report from the working group will go to the minister within two
>weeks.
>2. The DOT wants metric speed limits in place next summer.
>
>Brennan supports lowering rural speed limit
The recent publicity about this was sparked by the introduction of penalty
points for the offense of not weari
>Louis Jourdan wrote:
>>I suspect (I am now retired) that in French economic circles, they
>>are using k¤, M¤, ... (it's just bigger!).
>
>What you possibly intended to be euro symbols came through as the generic
>currency symbol.
The problem is, 80 hex is *not* the ISO value for the euro symbol.
>A government committee is assessing all existing speed limits in view of their
>coming metrication.
I spoke on the phone to the person chairing this committee about its progress.
The report should be delivered to the Minister by the end of July.
>Limits will be rationalised. At present there ar
>by the way, I think with metrication should also come
>
>1. international road signs
>2. 24 h clock usage
>3. replacing the word mileage with kilometrage (french pronounced)
>4. no MM/DD/ any more replace it with -MM-DD
>5. no metrication of pound/pint to 500 g/mL
1, 2 & 4 I support 100%.
>The UK mailing list received this link. It is a poll by a weather service
>seeking opinions on units for mountain heights (UK maps already give heights
>in metres). Please vote for metres.
>
>www.onlineweather.com/v4/uk/mountain/mountain_poll.html
Current results stand at metric 69%, imperial 27%
>The commonly-accepted term that is applicable to both U.S. and Imperial
>measures is "inch/pound." Around here, we use some less acceptable terms,
>including FFU (Fred Flintstone Units), for any inch/pound measures, and
>WOMBAT (Way Of Measuring Badly in America Today), for U.S. Customary. An
>alt
>Although deka and hecto are SI, they are unnecessary. Stick with units in 1
>000s or 1 000ths to simplify use and understanding, particularly by the
>general public.
If the above refers to general teaching of SI, then I must disagree. The
following are reasons why I think we should not seek to
>The BSA practices discrimination in three ways:
>Gender discrimination: No girls allowed
>Religious discrimination: No atheist allowed
>Homosexual discrimination: No homosexuals allowed (mainly as the Scout
>Master)
But isn't the Girl Scout organization guilty of the first type too ?
--
>The fundamental difference though between these two *beliefs* (yes, BOTH are
>based on faith!) is that while *time* is evolutionists' 'god', ours is the True
>God Almighty!... ;-)
NO NO NO I am not going to argue the relative merits of evolutionary
theory on this forum, but you are total
>If you mean to say that we have to believe in the fairy tale that we came from
>a monkey (or, worse, an ameba... (SIC)), then I'm sorry, but I don't buy that
>kind of crap (with due respect!... ;-) ).
As opposed to the fairy tale that an omnipotent being created the entire
universe in 6 days, a
>However, Joe, it is a multiple of a submultiple, E6 x E-3 kg, a *double*
>multiple in the format of powers of ten, ...
I think we are into angels-on-pin territory here. The Mg has to be at least
as valid as the familiar mg, submultiple of multiple notwithstanding. Are
you suggesting that use of
>No way Bill. He's serious. Aliens really did re-engineer the world and
>teach us base-10.
>
>Did you really think he was serious or something? ahhahajeez...
As a Creationist 'theory' it is no less plausible than some of those more
widely held. It is also nearly as impossible to disprove,
>You don't understand, Jim. This is not about 'magic' existing in our current
>base 10 system we all use, but that our brains have been proven to be "made to
>use base 10"!!! That's the essence of the research I was talking about.
Could you cite the source of this 'proof' ?
The brain is an incr
>We call it the 'hash' key.
Same over here.
--
Tom Wade, EuroKom | E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (all domain mailers).
Dale House| X400: g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=ie
30, Dale Road | Tel:
>You are the first who has felt the appathy of students who have already
>crossed their college and are NOW at cross-roads to figure out *what is
>right* - micrometre or micrometer to measure distances! Likewise
>litre/liter etc. Why can't the BIPM and CCU be approached to issue a
>"Papal l
>Latest news on metric speed limits in Ireland.
>Reduced speed limits could save lives, cut casualties
>If the Minister for Transport really wants to cut carnage on Irish roads, he
>should redefine the 30 m.p.h. speed limit as 30 k.p.h., argues Frank
>McDonald, Environment Editor
This confirms
>I cannot make clear to you what I mean. I will send no letter.
Perhaps a letter simply welcoming the change to sensible units.
As for the units themselves, I am a little curious about the 30 km/h limit
in NL. This seems excessively restrictive. Do people actually drive at
that speed, or is it
X-News: picard.eurokom.ie local.usma:30062
From: Ma Be <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [USMA:23033] Re: Question about date format
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:17:17 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>On this one all of us should side with the US. Indeed, Sunday IS day one of
>the week, as has been
>So, Tom, is time to break out the Guinness and rejoice?
After so many 'deadlines' that have come and gone ignored, I would certainly
not break out a celebratory beverage just yet.
However, an important difference this time is that a minister has made a
definitive public announcement. This minis
>The vast majority of people the world over use a calender with named months
>(i.e., January, February, ...).
But the vast majority of people the world over use different names from those
you list above (so your i.e. should be e.g.).
>We should write dates to make life easy for humans, not comp
>As I pointed out in an earlier email, this is just a backhanded way of
>forcing metrication on those who do not want it. You can stand there all
>day and claim he was not punished for selling in pounds, but, in effect,
>that is EXACTLY what he was prosecuted for.
He was not punished for usin
> Does anyone in Euroland use or say centieuros or just cents? Maybe the
>Germans still call the centieuro a pfennig, no? What about writing it out?
>Is it always 0.25 ? or maybe 25 c?? How is it done?
In Ireland we say "thirty cent" or "thirty cents". Apparently the official
recommendation f
>The only real issue would be how to tackle the leap year problem.
>I'd be happy to consider proposals for this.
The most sensible idea I've heard for this was proposed by the late Dr Isaac
Asimov.
A year consists of 13 months, each with 28 days. Each month has 4 weeks of
7 days each, using th
>A kilometre is 0.621 of a mile. However, it is thought the government will
>not reset a 70mph sign at the accurate conversion of 110kph, but at 100kph
>in an attempt to reduce accidents.
This is precisely the sort of woolly-headed thinking that will damage
metric transition. It is analogous to
>could you provide a mail address, an e-mail address or an URL where
>we could write ?
Mr Seamus Brennan TD
Minister for Transport
44, Kildare Street
Dublin 2
Ireland
Many thanks
--
Tom Wade, EuroKom | E-Mail: [EMAIL
>Just a silly question? But, isn't the change in highway signs designed to
>coincide with the change in speed/odometers on the new vehicles?
You'd think so, wouldn't you ?
Unfortunately, there has been absolutely no coordination between the depts
on this. The Dept of Environment had nothing to
Greetings,
It seems that the third successive deadline for metrication of speed signs in
Ireland will, like the two before it, be missed.
I contacted the Roads Section in the Dept of Transport (after the last
election in May, responsibility for roads was transferred from the Dept of
Environment
>But not anymore? Shame. Is the UK the only country left?
Ireland is the only other EU country not to have a national ID card.
I don't agree this is a shame though. Modern society won't function without
proof of identity. The absence of a single scheme merely means that it is
applied discrimin
>In Southern Ireland, they routinely have road signs written in both English and
>Gaelic and car number plates written in exclusively Gaelic!!
Road signs are normally in both English and Irish (we don't call it Gaelic),
which are the two official languages of the state. Car plates in Ireland tak
>tefering to A4, does whole europe use A4?
>
>and cananda or other from the commonwealth?
It's not geographic, it's based on software. Microsoft software uses 80
whereas most everything else (not just MAC, but Unix & VMS and possibly
mainframes if they support it at all) use A4.
Note that by A4
>>Tom Wade wrote in USMA 17518 regarding the euro:
>
>>Only Ireland, France & Denmark
>>allowed its people a say in this very fundamental change (an issue which is far
>>more important than weights & measures).
>
>
>That is a matter of taste. Business men and scientists would differ in
>their eva
>Today in France at supermarkets (highways service stations may be 10
>to 20% higher) :
> eurosuper (95 SAE grade) : 0,92 =A4/l
You're paying too much. Here 95% unleaded is about 81 c/L (mind you, cars
themselves are much dearer here). Still not as cheap as the US, but any
place cheaper
>Your euro symbols are coming through as generic currency symbols (circle
>with four points). (See your message, below.)
>
>This is somewhat strange, considering that you're using ISO-8859-1 encoding.
>
>Using the same encoding, I've had the euro come through successfully. Very
>strange.
>
>Euro:
>In most aspects Europe is democratic enough, but we leave
>the decision making to the elected parliament. Ireland has a national
>referendum, but the government did not dare to put the euro on the line.
This is not correct. Joining the common currency was part of the Maastricht
Treaty, not the
>I have to point that is not legal use non ASCII charachters in
>Headers .
RFC-1342 defines how to encode non-ASCII characters in RFC-822 headers.
For example, the subject header line:
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Keld_J=F8rn_Simonsen?=
co
>
>Maybe we should ask our fellow subscribers to report on this back to
>the list: What is the first day of the week in your country?
Ireland: Monday.
The first day of the week can hardly occur during a weekend, can it ? Sure,
it might originally have been a Sunday, but not any more (it's not
1 - 100 of 130 matches
Mail list logo
