meaning what mike?...
i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom
page?
something akin to alice in wonderland?
hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: "autumn fungi "...
i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?...
i feel over the moon.
as a mother
NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms
in mind!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle
Merle,
I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'.
Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain
mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; )
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iP
bill...what makes you believe that others on this forum are attached to their
intellect?.. to construct this sentence you had to use your intellect
surely?..merle
Merle,
I don't have any fear of my intellect. I use it much of the time. I am not
attached to my intellect. I know it produ
this is your opinion bill..
a delusional mind at work...
let's try a spider's web's..
tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders...
merle
Merle,
Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
>
bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle
I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets.
But have also experienced Just THIS!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or
there is no lines that is why chris..bill is experiencing an illusion as joe
says to me...maybe he needs to update his prescription to his glasses..merle
I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these experiences
are experience and those experiences over there are delusi
it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we
would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle
The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that
effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice
w
bill..i disagree..
sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell
something, and it is not always as it appears...
one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations...
at the end of the day..
nothing is what it appears to be..
all can appear as a dis
Merle,I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about
'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want
some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ;
)MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
as if i did not know this mike..
thanks for sharing ...
so a sunset just is
however...
what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ?
merle..a snake with legs is a lizard...
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
never...merle
Merle,
A funny Freudian slip. Are you DUELing with Bill?
:-)
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
>
> bill..many things have duel purposes...
>what you believe and think may not be useful today will be
> humans cannot do without without it scenar
so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle
Merle,
Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle
>
>
> Â
> I didn't really fini
Bill!
Perceptions are mental pictures formed in the brain from both sensory
organ input (real or imagined) and sincere words (words whose meanings
are believed to be valid to the perceiver). Experience always follows
perception which always follows prior experience.
Experience is dependent upon p
The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that
effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may
notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs.
Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of
stories.
Any ways, surely you d
I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these
experiences are experience and those experiences over there are delusion.
There's no sharp dividing lines anywhere that I can find, much less between
the natural unlabeled living in sensory experience with red known as red
being salie
Chris,
It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does...
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>
> I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being
> communicative.
>
> Thanks,
> --Chris
> 301-270-6524
> On Jul 3, 2013 10:
I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being
communicative.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, "Merle Lester" wrote:
mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle
PBS,
Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with
I have no idea how one could describe even one moment of experience with
math.
Nonetheless, we shall have to disagree. Seeing things as they are, there
is no self, and there never was a self. Math is not like that. With no
self, the flowers are flowers and math is math.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270
Math is just the world of delusion, except after the play, out of character,
backstage giving an interview.
Just like anything else, we regard it, and it reflects back whatever mental
framework we use to regard it in the first place.
Haiku (I posted this YEARS ago):
Strike a bell with wood.
St
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 4, 2013 6:06 AM, "Bill!" wrote:
>
> Merle,
>
> Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes.
So I have to say no here.
>
> Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we
understand the truth.
Never thought much about logi
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 4, 2013 5:57 AM, "Merle Lester" wrote:
>
>
>
>
> mathematics is beautiful because it is logical
How is it logical that numbers and equations are jusy exactly lines? The
beauty is there because the true connections defy logic. One just sits back
and gasps in w
Bill,
Total C..P! (censored in compliance with the new guidelines)...
The person who wrote the poem CLEARLY has plenty of purpose in life. Like
writing the poem, like eating so he has the energy to write the poem, and like
coming in out of the rain back home...
We can disagree about which purp
Merle, and Bill,
Yes, a simple truth. Very strange that Bill continually denies exactly what has
made him a success in real life! Something very weird about that don't you
think?
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
> bill...what fear do you have of the intellect?..
Merle, and Bill,
But Merle, Bill can't do that because he'd be using delusion to explain
delusion!
:-)
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
> bill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of
> us on this forum know precisely what you mean...
Merle,
I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets.
But have also experienced Just THIS!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to
> believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a
Merle,
Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as
> butterflies... merle
>
>
> Â
> Merle,
>
> Math, music and architecture are no
Merle,
I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again:
All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations,
etc...) are delusions.
Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are not
delusions.
Okay?
...Bill!
---
Merle,
I don't have any fear of my intellect. I use it much of the time. I am not
attached to my intellect. I know it produces delusions. These delusions come
and go like clouds in the sky. The clouds may partially cover the sun
sometimes, but I always no the sun is there and the clouds wi
Merle,A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is
like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it
doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the
perspective of where you stand to view it.MikeSent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPa
Edgar,
FINALLY! A good really, really good question! It's so good I'll respond
line-by-line:
> ...but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes.
No, everyone does not. A Buddha does not. And becoming a Buddha (or more
correctly stated, 'realizing Buddha Nature') is what zen practice is al
bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to
believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle
Merle,
Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes.
Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we
disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as
butterflies... merle
Merle,
Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly
human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human -
like caterpillars. Like I sai
bill..
fear of the tiger..
fear of the unknown
and that fear is an ancient fear belonging to all living creatures
fear of being preyed upon
merle
Merle,
I agree!
But if it's getting dark and that makes you uncomfortable, and you're hungry,
and your getting scared of (what?) the dar
bill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us
on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle
Edgar,
I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most
complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
...Bill!
--- In
Merle,
Yes. It's an e-delusion... ;>)
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
>  ..is  cyber space a delusion?..merle
>
>
> Â
> Bill,
>
> Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would
> it work for you if I said that the world of forms
bill...what fear do you have of the intellect?..
without the human brain and intellect yes based on logic
you would not be typing this message to edgar ..
merle
Edgar,
I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the three-word
phrase "the external reality" in the las
Merle,
Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle
>
>
> Â
> I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read:
>
> 'I know math is based on logi
Merle,
A funny Freudian slip. Are you DUELing with Bill?
:-)
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
> bill..many things have duel purposes...
> what you believe and think may not be useful today will be
> humans cannot do without without it scenario tomorrow...
> one mu
bill..many things have duel purposes...
what you believe and think may not be useful today will be
humans cannot do without without it scenario tomorrow...
one must keep the door opened so to speak..
for you never know..
merle
Edgar,
No, I don't think so.
It's kind of like the discussion
Merle,
Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes.
Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we
understand the truth.
Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is.
All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking
Merle and Bill,
No, a fully enlightened being like Bill would let himself get eaten by a tiger
with no problem at all. After all he claims the tiger eating him is just
another of his constant mental delusions... And God forbid he'd dare to have
any purpose of trying to escape the tiger. That wo
the reality is that without reality one would be in a disneyland..merle
Bill,
Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the
world of forms which you seem to do quite well.
By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all
of it
Bill,
Thanks, from you I do take that as a compliment!
:-)
Best,
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:36 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Edgar,
>
> I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most
> complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_F
Bill,
True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life is
like in the REAL world of forms...
Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it
isn't real?
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Edgar,
>
> No, I don't think so.
..is cyber space a delusion?..merle
Bill,
Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would it
work for you if I said that the world of forms is a logico-mathematical
computational system? Human math and logic are approximations of that in human
mental models
anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle
I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read:
'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is
delusional.'
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" wrote:
>
> Edgar,
>
> I know math is b
there is more to know whence one announce that is all one need to know..
how does one grow and realise and become fully aware if one shuts the door so
to speak at the first knowing?..
merle
Edgar,
I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoog
Merle,
Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly
human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human -
like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common
to all humans' these activities are not universal.
hence perhaps fuzzy logic?... merle
Bill,
This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the
world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares,
and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought.
The math our there is like software that
mathematics is beautiful because it is logical
logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth
truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to
take place ..
merle
Edgar,
Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words
Merle,
I agree!
But if it's getting dark and that makes you uncomfortable, and you're hungry,
and your getting scared of (what?) the dark and the jungle sounds - then you
probably have suddenly adopted a destination - out of here.
Now that you have a destination or goal then yes, you might con
bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one looks hard
and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal
..point to me where it is not?..merle
Merle,
Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products
the human intel
bill cause it's getting dark one is hungry...and fear is taking over what was
a nice day out in the jungle/ bush... merle
Merle,
Okay. If you have no specific destination how can you tell that you are lost?
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â b
Edgar,
I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most
complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the
>
Edgar,
I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the three-word
phrase "the external reality" in the last sentence.
Or if you want to keep the word count constant you could substitute the phrase
"the intellectual delusion"...
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Ed
Edgar,
No, I don't think so.
It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and
being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to
fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for
pounding in a nail, but its n
Bill,
Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the
world of forms which you seem to do quite well.
By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all
of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting...
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at
Bill,
Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would it
work for you if I said that the world of forms is a logico-mathematical
computational system? Human math and logic are approximations of that in human
mental models of reality. They work because they do, in the
Bill,
Yes, that's what reality is!
Edgar
On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Edgar,
>
> No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Usefulness is a criterion that s
I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read:
'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is
delusional.'
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" wrote:
>
> Edgar,
>
> I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> -
Edgar,
I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the
> world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, square
Bill,
This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the
world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares,
and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought.
The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state
of rea
Edgar,
Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words
because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I
suppose that wouldn't work for you.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> No, no, no. Huma
Edgar,
No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in
> synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS ac
Bill,
Funny, funny, funny. Here Suzuki himself is engaging in comic book Zen.
Looks like he also had enough ego to remember to put his clothes on in the
morning and pose for the photographer with his little stick!
Edgar
>
> I can't remember who it is that always asks me about stepping in f
Bill,
Sure that's true. Just tell it to the freezing man out in the woods in the
middle of a blizzard that would like to get warm. The sad fact is that humans
ARE NOT AT HOME in most natural environments...
Of course our fully enlightened Bill would just die happily of freezing to
death
E
Bill,
No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic
of reality.
Edgar
On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote:
> Chris,
>
> Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human
> intellect.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.c
Bill,
Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in
synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part
of reality...
Edgar
On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote:
> PBS,
>
> Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the
PBS,
This is our first stream-of-consciousness post in a long time!
(Unless of course you count Merle's posts which sometimes come pretty close.)
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote:
>
>
> All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the
>
Merle,
Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products
the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal.
If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal
but is a product of the human intellect.
If by "realization and awa
All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the
ventilation sings its shape through the drywall; the left hand has never felt
so useless -- I am making progress; time to start over.Whoa, now I gotta pee...
no choice but to get up or piss myself. Now I feel stupid for thin
Great quote, Bill!! May I compliment?"Art is as close as you can get to
perfection without getting caught in the wake" -- Captain BeefheartIt would
seem that the small amount of ego that we need is also large enough for
everything we want. (Run it both ways)No need to shed ego, and no need to
Merle,
Okay. If you have no specific destination how can you tell that you are lost?
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you
> me..destination or no destination..merle
>
>
> Â
> Merle,
>
> Yo
and further more being lost that applies to the realisation and awareness... "
trip" as well..merle
bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination
or no destination..merle
Merle,
You've missed my point. I'll try again.
You can only be lost if you h
yes bill..correct..however most folk carry a map...did captain cook have a
map of sorts?...
i think he did for some part of the journey then he sailed into the unknown and
made the discovery: australia..merle
Merle,
I agree with what you've written below BECAUSE you've specified a desti
bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include
esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have
this opportunity...that's one example...
explain to me why maths art and music are not "universal languages"..i might
just include architecture a
bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination
or no destination..merle
Merle,
You've missed my point. I'll try again.
You can only be lost if you have a destination in mind - a particular place to
which you want to go. If you don't have any particular d
Dear Joe,
can you comment on my below post to know how much I am correct.
Brgds
Suresh
Dear Sirs,
“That there is no path is true because what is the path between you
and yourself”
“Self is not different from self-realization. Self is self. If I don't
know what that self is, how am I going to c
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