Chris,
I should have worded my response, "Mind minds mind". What's the point of
trying to conceptualize monistic experience when it's already right there? It
reminds me of people at concerts who watch the show on their iPhone screens as
they record it.
-PBS
---
Yes, I would say our perceptions are analogies... IMO they are only analogies
of each other, all circular-like and what-have-you. This is why they are
delusions, to use your term -- right there, an example; terminology: just as
all of our perceptions are only analogies of each other, all of ou
Chris,
To respond to the part of your post below I assume is directed to me...
I don't EXPERIENCE 'beauty' or 'ugly' or 'red' or 'pleasing' or 'rocks',
etc...; I PERCEIVE these. Perception is a function of what I call my intellect
- the origin of plurality. If it would sound better I could br
Bingo!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Merle,I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name
> and label them as such.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for
> iPad
>
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently h
Chris,
I really think getting down to this level of discussion of such things
on a zen forum is uncalled for and probably leads to more confusion than
clarification, but I will answer your question - only because you're one
of my favorites... [:x]
First of all your phrase 'states of the brain' is
And additionally are you really claiming that you don't experience beauty
as a thing of the moment but only as something to make rules or reason
about?
And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than
the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of monis
Merle,I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name and
label them as such.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
So you are claiming that states of the brain and non thought are mutually
exclusive?
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 6:44 PM, "Bill!" wrote:
> Chris,
>
> "Non-thought" is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which is
> the foundation of delusion and attachment. Later yo
without the rock we would not be here..merle
Merle,
Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or math. Therefore
they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no inherent self
and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal. I can't
ex
Merle, Merle, Merle...
You're beginning to sound like Edgar - always projecting your thoughts and
ideas on what I say (or don't say in this case) and misquoting me.
I have never said 'don't judge'. I've only said that all judgments are
products of your intellect and are therefore deslusive.
I
Chris,
"Non-thought" is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which is the
foundation of delusion and attachment. Later you can reincorporate thought
without attachment by realizing it as delusive.
It doesn't mean all your bodily functions shut down.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yaho
Chris,
I don't resist your POV as long as you're describing perceptions. Perceptions
are pluaristic (which makes them delusions) so all the dualistic judgements can
and do apply.
When you used the word 'brighter' you AUTOMATICALLY imply dualism. Something
can't be 'brighter' unless it's comp
Chris,
You wrote: "You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that
applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this gathering,
that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night?"
What you've correctly stated above is why I say the judgeme
Chris,
Yes, I believe the human intellect is the origin of your judgement of what's
beautiful and what's not.
You're example below is a good one to illustrate this:
>I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time
>have really listened to it, and been deeply moved.
PBS,
In fact you could say that most of our perceptions are like analogies
themselves...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote:
>
>
> Bill!,
> It takes one to know one!
> ~PeeBeeEss
>
>
> --
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:30 AM EDT Bill! wrote
Merle,Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or
math. Therefore they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no
inherent self and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal.
I can't explain it clearer than that.in·or·gan·ic
(nôr-gnk)adj.1
bill beautiful..your the one saying don't judge..merle
Merle,
An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
>
>
> Â
> Merle,
>
> All experie
mike ..i know this... merle
Merle,
Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton John.
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester ;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect an
yes i am mike...life began as you well know from a single cell...why are you
telling me a rock is inorganic? realisation see all as one what has finger
painting got to do with it?..merle
Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no
difference between organic and
Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a
moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep.
Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting
each moment is the key?
Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, sinc
Chris,
Mind moves mind.
Yours truely,
Peebles
You: "Over and over, I have
heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have
really listened to it, and been deeply moved."
--
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>Are you
Arg, pardon the typos.
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 9:51 AM, "Chris Austin-Lane" wrote:
>
> I meant how.
>
> There’s no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry
seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the
experiences mediated by introspect
I meant how.
There’s no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry
seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the
experiences mediated by introspection are the same experiences mediated by
sight. You seem to be claiming your seeing is cut away from the rest of
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jul 5, 2013 3:24 AM, "Bill!" wrote:
>
> Merle,
>
> All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
>
> Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is
learned.
>
> For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and
h
Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from?
That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have
heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have
really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find
listening/see
Bill!,
It takes one to know one!
~PeeBeeEss
--
On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:30 AM EDT Bill! wrote:
>PBS,
>
>Good analogy!
>
>...Bill!
>
>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote:
>>
>>
>> Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based
PBS,
Good analogy!
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote:
>
>
> Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other.
> Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know --
> thoughts that feel new are just new combinations o
Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. Experience
just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that
feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge.
When we do experience "experience", mind is aware of it, and does what it
...Bill!
Merle,
It would not be possible for me to give you an example of an absolute in art or
music because the valuation of all art and music are subjective.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â would it be possible for bill to give an example of absolute a
Merle,
First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional.
There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real).
In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is
perception and other intellectual activities.
The quote is:
Merle,
An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
>
>
> Â
> Merle,
>
> All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
>
> Perceptions come from
Merle,Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton
John.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no
difference between organic and inorganic material?? I've yet to meet a rock
that can do calculus, finger-paint or whistle a
tune!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Um You asked for my postal address!Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad
would it be possible for bill to give an example of absolute as in art..and
music too
the delusion in art and music for that matter is that there is a price that can
be paid to acquire it..
all art and music for that matter is priceless
the value of it in terms of it's relationship to mone
seeing is good
thinking is bad...
is this the correct perception ?..
merle
This is mainly for Merle.
I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies...
...Bill!
i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle
Merle,
All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned.
For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head
of a dead
i need firm examples of delusions...
one size cap does not fit all...
this is a one size fits all "your ecard"...
merle
Change 'hallucinations' to 'delusions' in the graphic below and by George I
think you've got it!
...Bill!
cold as hell..
huh..
hell is hot from what i last heard...
folk raised many a kiddy in siberia...
so what's stopping mankind from raising kiddies in mars?..
merle
"Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids
In fact it's cold as Hell
And there's no one there to raise them if you didn'
what is meant by life...? merle
There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie!
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester ;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Caus
would i be that silly?..merle
You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel, you!
Mike
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester ;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion
Change 'hallucinations' to 'delusions' in the graphic below and by
George I think you've got it!
...Bill!
"Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids
In fact it's cold as Hell
And there's no one there to raise them if you didn't."
- from ROCKET MAN by Bernie Taupin
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David
> B
Merle,I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the
relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the
absolute.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel,
you!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David
Bowie!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
This is mainly for Merle.
I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my
buddies...
...Bill!
Merle,
All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual.
Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned.
For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head
of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive
Merle,
You can communicate to other folk with art because they are human. They have
Human Nature which is to say an intellect, emotions, etc...
It would be the same as communicating via language or mathematics or facial
expressions. These only work because you are directing them to another hu
Merle,
There is no non-sensual experience. Anything non-sensual is delusion.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
> Â sensual...what about non sensual?..merle
>
>
> Â
> Merle,
>
> Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be.
>
>
huh bill?
if you are not attached to your car it cannot be driven to your destination
so on that premises a car is real
hence one's intellectualisations are real
surely?
merle
Merle,
I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their
intellectualizations are real.
sorry i am not..
that is how us humans learn.
how do you think the idea of a aeroplane came into being...?
i think leonardo da vinci would have your argument as wanting..
we learn from nature..
not the other way around
merle
Merle,
Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to b
feel free to experience..merle
http://www.bluethumb.com.au/merlewiitpom
bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle
Merle,
My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably
something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as
beautiful.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Me
Merle,
I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their
intellectualizations are real.
I am using my intellect right now to write this sentence.
You can use your intellect (or anything else, like your car) and not be
attached to it.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogro
Merle,
Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to build his web?
It is your human intellect that judges the spider's web to be a work of
mathematically-based architecture. You are anthropomorphizing and projecting
your human delusions onto a the spider and the web.
...Bill!
--- I
Merle,
My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably
something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as
beautiful.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarifi
it's innate...they just know...
we do too..
except us folks deny our origins..." born knowing in the razzlemattazle of life
we forget our origins"
..merle
Merle,
Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the
time and I don't think they ever use math to do so.
Merle,
Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the
time and I don't think they ever use math to do so.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> Â it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we
>
goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on
perception... and now your saying it's all false!..
how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?...
is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on
the same page?..merle
Me
sensual...what about non sensual?..merle
Merle,
Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle
> Â
> Merle,
>
> Yes
ah i see..as if i did not before merle
Now we're on the same page!
Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
From: Merle Lester ;
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ;
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and
Karma
Sent: Fri,
no no no mike..life is art and art is life..merle
Merle,
If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find
impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art.
In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the
number
Merle,
The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not
pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false
perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's
nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experien
Merle,
Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle
> Â
> Merle,
>
> Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all.
>
Pudgala,
I do partially agree with you definition of 'perception' below when you
describe it as "mental pictures formed in the brain...". I usually just call
these 'concepts' or 'intellectualizations', or even just 'thoughts'.
The problem we are having communicating is that you are using the
Bill!You're becoming quite the 'Buddhist'! Glad you can see that just
saying, "Just THIS!" doesn't suit all
occasions.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Now we're on the same page!Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Chris,
Are you saying you don't know HOW I draw such a bright line between experience
and perceptions? Or are you saying you don't know WHY I draw the line?
'How' is easy. Experience is sensual and monistic (Buddha Nature).
Perceptions are intellectualizations and pluralistic (Human Nature).
Merle,If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you
will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't
find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc.,
but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of
men.MikeSent fro
mike..i see..gold tops and blue meenies?...is that the shroom page we are on?
how things change in late 60's they were top tucker in many circles..
merle
Merle,
Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they traditionally don't
serve in your local restaurant.. ; )
Mike
thank you for the congrats mike
the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more...
her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be
out there...
i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature
on-line art buying is a great way to get
Merle,Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they
traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ;
)MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
mike..
milky saffrons are top tucker in the very best restaurants and much sort after
..
what do you take me for?
a person who has not reached realisation?
merle
Merle,
If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them
you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence
Merle,Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone
appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it.I agree
with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The
only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found:
impermanence,
Merle,If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you
by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture
of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW
sometime!MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
77 matches
Mail list logo
