I agree with Ron Fletcher. They are 2 individual cases. Your water storage tank size is based on the greater demand. I have not found anywhere that states the two are additive.
Travis Mack > Jim, > > Let's say semi-rural. The fire department is coming but all the water, > for them and the sprinklers is from the tank. The actual flow has been > determined by the fire marshal and he has reduced the IFC requirements > in consideration of the sprinklers and has also actually reduced the > duration to one hour. No problem there. My question, which I'm > probably just not stating clearly, has to do with the amount of stored > water. I need 1500 gallons a minute at 20 psi, supplied by a fire > pump, for 60 minutes so that my storage has to be 90,000 gallons. I > also need 650 gpm for the sprinklers plus 250 gpm for the hose stream, > again for an hour or an additional 54,000 gallons when calculated > separately. Do I need to add this 54,000 gallons to the 90,000 gallons > in whole or part for total storage? Is the 54,000 gallons part of the > 90,000 gallons? I'm used to urban areas where duration is considered > unlimited as it applies to fire flow and so not part of the > supply/demand equation. > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Jim > Johnston<[email protected]> wrote: >> Ron, >> >> Is this in a rural setting? As Craig suggested lots of times you only >> need >> to size for the sprinkler demand and associated hose allowance with this >> scenario. It sounds like your project is in a rural setting, IFC >> Appendix B >> B103.3 allows the use of NFPA 1142 in areas without water supplies >> provided >> that the AHJ accepts it. I have utilized this numerous times in Eastern >> Washington and Oregon, you still need to provide enough hydrants though >> but >> you don't have to provide the IFC required fire flow for the particular >> building. >> >> Jim Johnston, P.E. >> Fire Protection Engineer >> Inland Fire Protection, Inc >> 1100 Ahtanum Road >> Yakima, WA 98903 >> Phone 509-248-4471 >> Fax 509-248-1180 >> [email protected] >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Greenman [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 12:57 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Fire Flow >> >> The reduction has already been approved. The fire flow demand is to >> supply a hydrant on the property. My question is (and no fire marshal >> to ask today),is the sprinkler demand included or need to be added? >> This tank supplies all fire water needs (no jokes-I know what you're >> all thinking) for this property. >> >> On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:50 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> If you're talking about the fire flows referenced in the IFC, Appendix >>> B, >> this seems to be an AHJ or IU call. For the most part when the building >> is >> fully sprinklered only the sprinkler system demand and hose stream >> demands >> are used for water tank sizing. I've not had one AHJ or IU apply the >> fire >> flow section of the IFC to the water supply when those conditions exist. >> Now when a building is not protected I have had this section of the IFC >> applied. However note that this section is not mandatory and is not a >> part >> of the actual Code. See wording at the top of the first page. So it >> requires clarification from the AHJ and/or IU as to what is applicable. >> But >> if there is no direction we use it as the basis. >>> >>> Also note that the 75% reduction is "up to 75%" and "as approved", so >>> it's >> not an automatic reduction. >>> >>> >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>> Fire Protection Specialist >>> Mechanical Department >>> CH2MHILL >>> Lockwood Greene >>> 1500 International Drive >>> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.ch2m.com >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron >> Greenman >>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:40 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Fire Flow >>> >>> When determining tank size on a property supplied only from a tank is >>> the >> sprinkler demand added to fire flow as a cumulative fire flow or is it >> considered part of the fire flow? And if the former does the hose stream >> need to be added or is it negated by the fact that the tank is already >> supplying the hydrants? Example: 30,000 sqft fully sprinklered building >> requires a fire flow (reduced 75% then rounded up to the minimum) of >> 1500 >> gpm for 2 hours requiring a 180,000 gallon tank. The sprinkler demand is >> 650 >> gpm plus a 250 gpm hose stream for one hour for a total of 54,000 >> gallons. >> Is the 54K gallons included in whole or in part with the fire flow >> storage >> or is it added? Thanks. >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering >>> Bates Technical College >>> Tacoma, WA >>> >>> Member: >>> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering >> Bates Technical College >> Tacoma, WA >> >> Member: >> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > Tacoma, WA > > Member: > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
