Unless some AHJ says otherwise, I'd say no you don't have to add the 90K to the 54K. The 54K is made up of sprinkler demand and hose stream allowance. The typical assumption is that the sprinklers have done their job and the only hose stream that may be needed is for mop-up operation.
Again, unless the jurisdiction has adopted Appendix B into their Codes or Statutes, it is not directly applicable and I wouldn't apply it to a fully protected building. Besides you'll bump to the next larger normal tank size to give yourself some cushion. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 4:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fire Flow Jim, Let's say semi-rural. The fire department is coming but all the water, for them and the sprinklers is from the tank. The actual flow has been determined by the fire marshal and he has reduced the IFC requirements in consideration of the sprinklers and has also actually reduced the duration to one hour. No problem there. My question, which I'm probably just not stating clearly, has to do with the amount of stored water. I need 1500 gallons a minute at 20 psi, supplied by a fire pump, for 60 minutes so that my storage has to be 90,000 gallons. I also need 650 gpm for the sprinklers plus 250 gpm for the hose stream, again for an hour or an additional 54,000 gallons when calculated separately. Do I need to add this 54,000 gallons to the 90,000 gallons in whole or part for total storage? Is the 54,000 gallons part of the 90,000 gallons? I'm used to urban areas where duration is considered unlimited as it applies to fire flow and so not part of the supply/demand equation. On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Jim Johnston<[email protected]> wrote: > Ron, > > Is this in a rural setting? As Craig suggested lots of times you only > need to size for the sprinkler demand and associated hose allowance > with this scenario. It sounds like your project is in a rural > setting, IFC Appendix B > B103.3 allows the use of NFPA 1142 in areas without water supplies > provided that the AHJ accepts it. I have utilized this numerous times > in Eastern Washington and Oregon, you still need to provide enough > hydrants though but you don't have to provide the IFC required fire > flow for the particular building. > > Jim Johnston, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Inland Fire Protection, Inc > 1100 Ahtanum Road > Yakima, WA 98903 > Phone 509-248-4471 > Fax 509-248-1180 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Greenman [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 12:57 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Flow > > The reduction has already been approved. The fire flow demand is to > supply a hydrant on the property. My question is (and no fire marshal > to ask today),is the sprinkler demand included or need to be added? > This tank supplies all fire water needs (no jokes-I know what you're > all thinking) for this property. > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 12:50 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> If you're talking about the fire flows referenced in the IFC, >> Appendix B, > this seems to be an AHJ or IU call. For the most part when the > building is fully sprinklered only the sprinkler system demand and > hose stream demands are used for water tank sizing. I've not had one > AHJ or IU apply the fire flow section of the IFC to the water supply when > those conditions exist. > Now when a building is not protected I have had this section of the > IFC applied. However note that this section is not mandatory and is > not a part of the actual Code. See wording at the top of the first > page. So it requires clarification from the AHJ and/or IU as to what > is applicable. But if there is no direction we use it as the basis. >> >> Also note that the 75% reduction is "up to 75%" and "as approved", so >> it's > not an automatic reduction. >> >> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET >> Fire Protection Specialist >> Mechanical Department >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >> 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman >> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 3:40 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Fire Flow >> >> When determining tank size on a property supplied only from a tank is >> the > sprinkler demand added to fire flow as a cumulative fire flow or is it > considered part of the fire flow? And if the former does the hose > stream need to be added or is it negated by the fact that the tank is > already supplying the hydrants? Example: 30,000 sqft fully sprinklered > building requires a fire flow (reduced 75% then rounded up to the > minimum) of 1500 gpm for 2 hours requiring a 180,000 gallon tank. The > sprinkler demand is 650 gpm plus a 250 gpm hose stream for one hour for a > total of 54,000 gallons. > Is the 54K gallons included in whole or in part with the fire flow > storage or is it added? Thanks. >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering >> Bates Technical College >> Tacoma, WA >> >> Member: >> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > Tacoma, WA > > Member: > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
