Dean writes:
I was here when Jeff was and when pressed He admitted to
putting the BofM over the Bible-then tried to retract that statement-
and of course he stated: I am only here to learn what protestants
believe. He came here to learn how to defeat street preachers just
before he was sent to N. Orleans. David Miller was warned-by me-
of this at that time and ignore the warning-so Jeff was allowed to
stay on-now street preachers have to deal with him...
Judy:
Well that's not all bad Dean, it will keep you guys on your toes.
Dean writes:
If you were the on who has to answer these guided questions in front of
hundreds of lost people then you might be persuaded to have a synthetic
heart toward those who do. Consider a young preacher trying to lead the
lost to Christ and DaveH comes alone to ask the questions?
Judy:
Even if DavidM banned the Mormons from the TT List they could still
come to outdoor meetings and harrass the SP's;
Dean writes:
True But not with the skill of learning what to say next-and the direction we are heard with our answers-that they learned here on TT.
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can't you just tell the
person you will meet with them privately later? That is, if they are
causing an embarrassment.
Dean writes:
This does not have anything to do with causing an embarrassment-it has to do with stealing the words that are being sowed.In Chicago three of us were preaching to a large crowd and working around the edges of the crowd were three Mormons-claiming to be Christians hand out tracts and inviting people to their church. Wolves in sheepskin clothing corrupting the word of God for the devil-to lead soul to hell. After I got their attention-they did not stay long. One even got mad enough to hit me on the shoulder before he left the area.Oh ,don't you know -Mormons have horrible tempers. Trying to keep 1300 commandments tends to do this.
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Dean:
As concerning the "Pastors" answer to Jeff-consider: Romans 9:20-29
V. 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22. What if God ,willing to shew his wrath., and to make his power
known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction .... In short the Pastor was correct. God said that he had
that right-would any here say He doesn't?
Judy:
He can do anything He wants to but it would be out of character.
In Romans 9 before he makes the above statement Paul refers to Esau
and Pharoah both of whom rejected God prior to his rejecting them.
Esau by selling the birthright for a mess of pottage and the Pharoah
by his double-mindedness. How many chances to change his mind
did God give that Pharoah?
Dean writes:
True-but when fear of God came upon the Pharaoh-what did God do?
He hardened his heart due to the fact Pharaoh went to far into sin- as
many do today.
Judy:
I don't believe the fear of God ever did come upon that Pharoah because
the "fear of God is to hate evil" and Pharoah never got that far.
Dean writes:
He got that far. Exod.10: Then Pharoah called for Moses and Aaron in haste: and he said, I have sinned against the Lord your God, and against you.
v.20 But the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
I view it as- Fear 0f God is the beginning of wisdom but it can be stolen from the heart.
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He was
opportunistic and he would agree with Moses for a short time and then
change his mind and go back to the way it was. He did that one time
too many and at some point God hardened his heart so that he could
no longer repent. Repentance is a gift.
Dean writes:
I also have believed that-but am questioning Ex.3:19 and Ex. 4:21.Yes, repentance is a gift as what would happen if we couldn't do so-To my understanding it also gives glory to God.
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Dean:
In verse 23 it states: What if God ,willing to make his power known,
endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
v.23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels
of mercy,which he had prepared unto glory.
Judy:
He endured with much long suffering the Canaanite nations making
Israel wait until the iniquity of the Amorites was full before he allowed
them to be destroyed. Same with Nineveh when he sent Jonah to
preach to them. They repented and got a reprieve and then later went
back to their old ways and were destroyed.
Dean:
So then to punish sinners in hell-whom he foreknew would go to hell-
allows God to show His Glory by the mercy He has giving the saints?
So to put someone into hell is to show His glory.
Judy:
This, to me, is convoluted thinking Dean and I don't see it in scripture.
It has got to be some man's doctrine and off the top of my head I would
say it is John Calvin.
Dean writes:
The way I see it is- will we not give glory to God when he cast sinners in hell for doing the same thing we have done?Does not that show his mercy extended toward us?
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Dean:
God's love was no longer available to Pharaoh nor Esau-and wouldn't
God know this from the beginning? Yet without act the committing of the
crime there is no punishment for the crime-God knew they would commit
the crime-sent them here-and they in fact committed the crime.
Judy:
Then by the same reasoning are you agreeing with the Mormons that God
put A&E in the garden knowing that they would fall and that they fell for
His glory?
Dean writes:
No. God was able to show his glory even after the fall-but the fall was to the hurt of Man. In order to fall one must be there. A&E were with God as strong and holy beings. God told them about the tree and the dangers involved and allow them to make the choice.They could have also chosen the tree of life instead of the tree of knowledge of good and evil yet they failed to do so and what was their gain? They knew good as God was there-so their only gain was evil. Early historians claim that when Eve first fell Adam knew she would be lost to him and ate the fruit to be with her. To change from a being filled with light to one filled with darkness would be dramatic indeed. Moses was in His presence for a limited amount of time and had to ware a veil over his face for it shown brightly. A&E must have shown extremely bright. God made man to be a righteous being not one to sin and become unrighteous to become righteous.Jesus paid a hard price so that the way could be made straight and we can begin to process of re
turn to the original state we fell from.And then we will be able to eat from the tree of life-many of us could have already done that.
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Dean:
I believe the love of God was available to them at one time-but He knew
they would not accept that love-hence a vessel fitted to destruction. Note:
God also demonstrated his power/glory by the plaques He sent upon Egypt.
Judy:
What about the plagues that are on the Church right now, do they also
demonstrate God's power and glory?
Dean writes:
I see no plaques on the true church as we are not appointed to the wrath of God-The true church is the bride of Christ-what man would plague his bride? I do see the church suffering harm from not heeding the word of God. Such as not allowing false prophets in the among the sheep.
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I wrote:
The wisdom of God says "I love them that love me, and those that
seek me early shall find me" (Proverbs 8:17). Whereas John Calvin
taught that God created some people to be predestined for heaven
and some to be predestined for hell.
Dean writes:
I do not agree with J. Calvin as the sin must be committed before
the punishment and that Jesus died for all people- even Esau/Pharoah.
Calvin would condemn them before they even committed sin-but God
alone decides when to turn someone over to a depraved mind (reprobate
Romans 1-28).So yes it would be best to seek Him early.
Judy:
Scripture teaches that vessels of wrath who are fitted for destruction
have come to this juncture through their own ungodly choices.
Dean writes:
I agree.
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V.15
For he saith to Moses. I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL
HAVE MERCY,AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL
HAVE COMPASSION.
Judy:
Paul here quotes Exodus 33:19 where God is telling Moses that he
has found grace in His sight and Moses is interceding and asking God
to go with them....
Dean:
Verse 16-Teaches that it is not what man wants or does but God
who shows mercy. Nor is grace upon all men as David says.
(Rom 9:16)
Judy:
David might be referring to what theologians call 'prevenient grace'
which is the idea that grace is upon everyone for a season until they
get to the point of no return and only God knows when that is. He
does send rain on both the just and the unjust.
Dean writes:
The grace mentioned here is grace available to all man unto salvation. I view the grace as being there-for our choosing-not forced down our throats as Calvinism would belive.Yes it both rains and sun shines on the just and unjust alike-but grace is to have favor with God that no lost man has-only the redeemed.
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Dean:
Adam Clarks writes:
So then it is not of him that willeth, etc. - I conclude, therefore, from
these several instances, that the making or continuing any body of men
the peculiar people of God, is righteously determined; not by the judgment,
hopes, or wishes of men, but by the will and wisdom of God alone.
Judy:
Yes, but we can know why he chooses some and not others. Abraham
believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Without faith
it is impossible to please Him.
Dean writes:
I don't view faith as a work-God did the work-I believe that he did it. Work after this acceptance can draw one to a deeper level of understanding.
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Dean (Adam Clarke)
For Abraham judged that the blessing ought, and he willed, desired, that
it might be given to Ishmael....
Judy:
Abraham misunderstood, he should have known that the supernatural
son Isaac was the promised seed.
Dean writes:
Satan probably sent whispers to make him doubt Gods words-and thru the years..etc.
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Dean (Adam Clarke)
and Isaac also willed, designed, it for his first-born, Esau: and Esau,
wishing and hoping that it might be his, readily went, ran a hunting for
venison, that he might have the blessing regularly conveyed to him:
but they were all disappointed -
Judy:
I wonder where Mr. Clarke gets this from. Actually the blessing is
supposed to go to the first-born; the reason God loved Jacob and hated
Esau is because Jacob is the one who was spiritual, he is the one who
coveted the blessing; Esau could have cared less until it was gone.
How does hunting for venison make any difference?
Dean writes:
Esau went hunting for food to be found pleasing to Isaac-to gain favor from Isaac to gain the blessings-He should have been hunting for ways to please God instead. Joseph wasn't the first born-neither was Isacc and they received the blessings.
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Dean (Adam Clarke)
Abraham and Isaac, who willed, and Esau who ran: for God had originally
intended that the blessing of being a great nation and distinguished people
should, of his mere good pleasure, be given to Isaac and Jacob, and be
confirmed in their posterity; and to them it was given. And when by their
apostasy theyhad forfeited this privilege, it was not Moses willing, nor any
prior obligation God was under, but his own sovereign mercy, which
continued it to them.
Judy:
Exactly when did Isaac and Jacob get off into apostasy? Mr. Clarke has
lost me here... Does he explain in the book you are copying from?
Dean writes:
Yes it was referring to the apostasy committed by Esau and Ishmael and they lost the privilege of inheriting the first born rights.
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Dean:
Kinda goes against the grain of the "God loves everyone" camp huh?
Judy:
I don't think so... God did and does love everyone enough to make
provision so that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall
be saved even before the foundation of the world, we don't have to
be blotted out of His book.
Dean writes:
Would you agree that in order to be blotted out of His book that one's name
must first be written in His book -thru Christ alone?
Judy:
I believe everyone's name is in the book before the foundation of the world
because I don't see anything about writing it in there, only taking it out and
the book itself is a reality before the foundation of the world.
Dean:
Yes the love of God was there at one time but some fail to repent and come
to the love.I would say that the Love of God is not one them but available
to them on conditions
John Wesley wrote: Heb 12:17 - When he would have inherited the
blessing - When he wished to have the lordship over the whole family
conveyed to him, and sought it earnestly with tears, he found no place for
a change in his fathers mind and counsel, who now perceived that it was the
will of God that Jacob should be made lord of all.
Judy:
I hate to disagree with John Wesley but he has added to the teaching of
scripture right here. It wasn't changing Isaac's mind that was the problem
It was that he found no place of "repentance" He now has a problem with
God. Repentance is a gift from him just like the blessing. Esau was carnal.
He messed up and when he woke up it was too late for him.
Dean write:
I understand Wesley to be say that Isaac wanted to give the blessing to Esau as the first born and that was not God will-so it is not what man wills but rather what God decides.Before you decide against Wesley I strongly suggest you study some of his books-I have yet to meet his match outside of the bible.
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Dean:
Heb 12:17 - He was rejected - He could not obtain it. For he found no place
for repentance - There was no room for any such repentance as would regain
what he had lost. Though he sought it - The blessing of the birth - right.
Diligently with tears - He sought too late. Let us use the present time.
Psa 5:5 The foolish1984 shall not3808 stand3320 in5048 thy sight:5869 thou
hatest8130 all3605 workers6466 of iniquity.205
J. Wesley wrote:
Psa 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand - He is a fool and a madman who is
running himself out of breath for no prize, who is fighting against the Almighty;
this every wicked man does; therefore is every wicked man a fool and a madman.
Thou hatest all workers of iniquity - Some sin now and then, others generally;
some constantly, and some labor in it with all their might. These are the Workers
of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a
portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty!
Dean:
Would this not go into the area that God called those whom he knew
would answer and repent?
Judy:
God calls everyone. "Many are called but few are chosen" The chosen
are those who overcome by His grace.
Dean writes:
Does "everyone" hear that call? Has everyone been preached to?
Judy:
Only God knows...
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? and how
shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they
hear without a preacher?
Judy:
And how shall they preach except they be sent?
Dean writes:
True and how will we know them? By their fruits and by their words-For they must preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the sins of the world.
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"Strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there
be that find it"
Dean writes
Amen!
