RE: [TruthTalk] new revelation

[jandgtaylor1]

Dean writes: I was here when Jeff was and when pressed He admitted to  putting the BofM over the Bible-then tried to retract that statement-  and of course he stated: I am only here to learn what protestants  believe. He came here to learn how to defeat street preachers just  before he was sent to N. Orleans. David Miller was warned-by me-  of this at that time and ignore the warning-so Jeff was allowed to  stay on-now street preachers have to deal with him...  Judy: Well that's not all bad Dean, it will keep you guys on your toes. Dean writes: If you were the on who has to answer these guided questions in front of hundreds of lost people then you might be persuaded to have a synthetic heart toward those who do. Consider a young preacher trying to lead the lost to Christ and DaveH comes alone to ask the questions?   Judy: Even if DavidM banned the Mormons from the TT List they could still come to outdoor meetings and harrass the SP's; can't you just tell the person you will meet with them privately later? That is, if they are causing an embarrassment. Dean: As concerning the "Pastors" answer to Jeff-consider: Romans 9:20-29 V. 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay,of the same lump to make  one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? 22. What if God ,willing to shew his wrath., and to make his power  known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted  to destruction .... In short the Pastor was correct.  God said that he had that right-would any here say He doesn't? Judy: He can do anything He wants to but it would be out of character. In Romans 9 before he makes the above statement Paul refers to Esau and Pharoah both of whom rejected God prior to his rejecting them.  Esau by selling the birthright for a mess of pottage and the Pharoah by his double-mindedness.  How many chances to change his mind did God give that Pharoah? Dean writes: True-but when fear of God came upon the Pharaoh-what did God do? He hardened his heart due to the fact Pharaoh went to far into sin- as many do today.   Judy: I don't believe the fear of God ever did come upon that Pharoah because the "fear of God is to hate evil" and Pharoah never got that far. He was opportunistic and he would agree with Moses for a short time and then change his mind and go back to the way it was. He did that one time too many and at some point God hardened his heart so that he could no longer repent.  Repentance is a gift.   Dean: In verse 23 it states: What if God ,willing to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction  v.23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of  mercy,which he had prepared unto glory.   Judy: He endured with much long suffering the Canaanite nations making Israel wait until the iniquity of the Amorites was full before he allowed them to be destroyed.  Same with Nineveh when he sent Jonah to preach to them.  They repented and got a reprieve and then later went back to their old ways and were destroyed.   Dean: So then to punish sinners in hell-whom he foreknew would go to hell- allows God to show His Glory by the mercy He has giving the saints? So to put someone into hell is to show His glory.   Judy: This, to me, is convoluted thinking Dean and I don't see it in scripture. It has got to be some man's doctrine and off the top of my head I would say it is John Calvin.   Dean: God's love was no longer available to Pharaoh nor Esau-and wouldn't God know this from the beginning? Yet without act the committing of the crime there is no punishment for the crime-God knew they would commit the crime-sent them here-and they in fact committed the crime.   Judy: Then by the same reasoning are you agreeing with the Mormons that God put A&E in the garden knowing that they would fall and that they fell for His glory?   Dean: I believe the love of God was available to them at one time-but He knew they would not accept that love-hence a vessel fitted to destruction.  Note: God also demonstrated his power/glory by the plaques He sent upon Egypt. Judy: What about the plagues that are on the Church right now, do they also demonstrate God's power and glory?   I wrote: The wisdom of God says "I love them that love me, and those that seek me early shall find me" (Proverbs 8:17). Whereas John Calvin  taught that God created some people to be predestined for heaven  and some to be predestined for hell. Dean writes: I do not agree with J. Calvin as the sin must be committed before the punishment and that Jesus died for all people- even Esau/Pharoah. Calvin would condemn them before they even committed sin-but God alone decides when to turn someone over to a depraved mind (reprobate Romans 1-28).So yes it would be best to seek Him early. Judy: Scripture teaches that vessels of wrath who are fitted for destruction have come to this juncture through their own ungodly choices.  V.15 For he saith to Moses. I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL  HAVE MERCY,AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL  HAVE COMPASSION. Judy: Paul here quotes Exodus 33:19 where God is telling Moses that he has found grace in His sight and Moses is interceding and asking God to go with them.... Dean: Verse 16-Teaches that it is not what man wants or does but God who shows mercy. Nor is grace upon all men as David says. (Rom 9:16)   Judy: David might be referring to what theologians call 'prevenient grace' which is the idea that grace is upon everyone for a season until they get to the point of no return and only God knows when that is. He does send rain on both the just and the unjust.   Dean:  Adam Clarks writes: So then it is not of him that willeth, etc. - I conclude, therefore, from these several instances, that the making or continuing any body of men the peculiar people of God, is righteously determined; not by the judgment, hopes, or wishes of men, but by the will and wisdom of God alone.   Judy: Yes, but we can know why he chooses some and not others. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.   Dean (Adam Clarke) For Abraham judged that the blessing ought, and he willed, desired, that it might be given to Ishmael....   Judy: Abraham misunderstood, he should have known that the supernatural son Isaac was the promised seed.     Dean (Adam Clarke) and Isaac also willed, designed, it for his first-born, Esau: and Esau, wishing and hoping that it might be his, readily went, ran a hunting for venison, that he might have the blessing regularly conveyed to him: but they were all disappointed -   Judy: I wonder where Mr. Clarke gets this from. Actually the blessing is supposed to go to the first-born; the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau is because Jacob is the one who was spiritual, he is the one who coveted the blessing; Esau could have cared less until it was gone. How does hunting for venison make any difference?    Dean (Adam Clarke) Abraham and Isaac, who willed, and Esau who ran: for God had originally intended that the blessing of being a great nation and distinguished people should, of his mere good pleasure, be given to Isaac and Jacob, and be confirmed in their posterity; and to them it was given. And when by their apostasy theyhad forfeited this privilege, it was not Moses willing, nor any prior obligation God was under, but his own sovereign mercy, which continued it to them.   Judy: Exactly when did Isaac and Jacob get off into apostasy? Mr. Clarke has lost me here... Does he explain in the book you are copying from?   Dean: Kinda goes against the grain of the "God loves everyone" camp huh? Judy: I don't think so... God did and does love everyone enough to make provision so that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved even before the foundation of the world, we don't have to be blotted out of His book.   Dean writes: Would you agree that in order to be blotted out of His book that one's name must first be written in His book -thru Christ alone?   Judy: I believe everyone's name is in the book before the foundation of the world because I don't see anything about writing it in there, only taking it out and the book itself is a reality before the foundation of the world.   Dean: Yes the love of God was there at one time but some fail to repent and come to the love.I would say that the Love of God is not one them but available to them on conditions   John Wesley wrote: Heb 12:17 - When he would have inherited the blessing - When he wished to have the lordship over the whole family conveyed to him, and sought it earnestly with tears, he found no place for a change in his fathers mind and counsel, who now perceived that it was the will of God that Jacob should be made lord of all.   Judy: I hate to disagree with John Wesley but he has added to the teaching of scripture right here.  It wasn't changing Isaac's mind that was the problem It was that he found no place of "repentance"  He now has a problem with God.  Repentance is a gift from him just like the blessing.  Esau was carnal. He messed up and when he woke up it was too late for him.   Dean: Heb 12:17 - He was rejected - He could not obtain it. For he found no place for repentance - There was no room for any such repentance as would regain what he had lost. Though he sought it - The blessing of the birth - right. Diligently with tears - He sought too late. Let us use the present time.   Psa 5:5  The foolish1984 shall not3808 stand3320 in5048 thy sight:5869 thou hatest8130 all3605 workers6466 of iniquity.205   J. Wesley wrote: Psa 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand - He is a fool and a madman who is running himself out of breath for no prize, who is fighting against the Almighty; this every wicked man does; therefore is every wicked man a fool and a madman. Thou hatest all workers of iniquity - Some sin now and then, others generally; some constantly, and some labor in it with all their might. These are the Workers of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty! Dean: Would this not go into the area that God called those whom he knew  would answer and repent? Judy: God calls everyone.  "Many are called but few are chosen" The chosen are those who overcome by His grace. Dean writes: Does "everyone" hear that call? Has everyone been preached to?   Judy: Only God knows... Romans 10:14 How then shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?   Judy: And how shall they preach except they be sent? "Stait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it" Dean writes Amen!