In the following Letter dear Gilberto you write:
*****
Gilberto:
But assuming this is true, how do you distinguish between someone who
is validly changing the law (if such a thing is possible) and someone
who is illegitimately doing so?
Gilberto:
I understand that this is your opinion. All I'm trying to say with the
above and related comments is that even within the "constraints" of
orthodox traditional Islam, there are concepts which are inclusive
enough to allow for certain Bahai claims in interesting ways (although
most likely not all of them).
According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the
concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of
Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there
aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be
"Perfect Men" after the Muhammad. So if this is what "Manifestation"
means then Muslims can look for past, present or future Manifestations
among the awliya (saints) of the community of Muhammad.
*****
This servant [khazeh] would not know exactly how to reply.
In one sense one should go beyond a discussion over Names. If you dear
Gilberto wish to look at the Writings of Baha'u'llah as that emanating from
a WALI then that is certainly a start.
The important point is to commence as no day that passes can be repeated. In
the Christian world someone like Hans Kung who accepts the prophethood of
Muhammad as that of an Old Testament Prophet has at least started
somewhere...
We must go beyond Names [asmaa'] to a large extent.
Look at the Writings Look at the Pen of Baha'u'llah. Look at His
incarceration the fact the He was prevented from beholding greenery and
verdure for nine years. Look at the transforming influence of His Son on
someone like Martha root or May Maxwell or Thomas Breakwell...
005.054
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! ...SOON WILL GOD PRODUCE A PEOPLE WHOM HE WILL
LOVE AS THEY WILL LOVE HIM...
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! ... God will bring a people whom He loveth and
who love Him...
SHAKIR: O you who believe! ... then God will bring a people, He shall love
them and they shall love Him
Thus in the beginning of the Qur'anic Revelation It says that the Revelation
was to warn Mecca and Its Environs...Later we have people like your good
self being affected by that Revelation and loving it...
****
042.007
YUSUFALI: Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: THAT
THOU MAYEST WARN THE MOTHER OF CITIES AND ALL AROUND HER...
PICKTHAL: And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou
mayest warn THE MOTHER-TOWN AND THOSE AROUND IT...
SHAKIR: And thus have We revealed to you an Arabic Quran, that you may warn
the mother city and those around it...****
006.092
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings,
and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn
the mother of cities and all around her...
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed, confirming
that which (was revealed) before it, that thou mayest warn the Mother of
Villages and those around her. ....
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which
is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her...
You also say below dear
Gilberto:
3. The Quran could be endless in terms of its meanings. The other day
I was reading a quote attributed to Imam Ali where he said that if he
wanted to he could load up 70 camels with written commentary about
al-Fatihah (the first chapter of the Quran which consists of only 7
verses). And there are numerous similar statements made about the
meanings of passages of the Quran. If only 7 verses can have that much
meaning contained in them, it does not make sense to think that it's
interpretations have been exhausted and that the book is insufficient
for modern times and that we should move on to some other text.***
Of course on further delving the reason [one important reason] the Imam 'Ali
[PBUH] said that there was SO MUCH in the first Surah is that later He says
it has all to do with the Letter Ba. ie the Letter B. Which Letter He goes
on to say is Baha'u'llah. The Letter B is the first Letter of the First
Sura.
***As that Moon of the heavens of knowledge and understanding and that Point
at the centre of the wheel of Divine Guidance, the all-conquering Lion of
God, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, unto him be greetings and praise, has asserted:
"ALL THAT IS IN THE TORAH AND THE EVANGELS AND THE PSALMS IS IN THE QUR'AN;
AND ALL THAT IS IN THE QUR'AN IS IN THE FATIHA [THE FIRST SURA OF THE
QUR'AN]; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE FATIHA IS IN THE BISMI'LLAH [THE OPENING
PHRASE OF THE FATIHA]; AND ALL THAT IS IN THE BISMI'LLAH IS IN THE BA [THE
FIRST LETTER OF BISMI'LLAH]***
Another stunning, and for Bahá'ís prophetic, occurrence of the word Bahá' in
a mystical text, is its use in the work The Sun of Mystic Meaning (Shams al-
ma'ání) of Muhyí al-Dín al- Búní (d. 1225 CE) where it is written in the
course of commenting on "the name Bahá'",
God will cause a sunbeam (ishráq an) to radiate from His splendid
(al-Bahíyy), all- glorious (al-Abhá') Countenance (al-wajh) with the name of
Bahá' (bi-ism al-Bahá') on the Universal Day (yawm al-mut.laq). And He shall
enter the meadow (or vicinity, marj) of Akká' and unite all the peoples of
the earth. . . (cited RM 1:365-6)(19)...
There is so much to share...with warmest regards
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:06:41 -0000, Khazeh Fananapazir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html
>
> In the above missive
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43028.html
>
> my dear Gilberto writes:
> **** In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the
Perfect Man or the
> Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize new
> Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been
> abrogated or not.****
Dear Khazeh,
> The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat]
> of the Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes.
>
But assuming this is true, how do you distinguish between someone who
is validly changing the law (if such a thing is possible) and someone
who is illegitimately doing so?
Gilberto:
I understand that this is your opinion. All I'm trying to say with the
above and related comments is that even within the "constraints" of
orthodox traditional Islam, there are concepts which are inclusive
enough to allow for certain Bahai claims in interesting ways (although
most likely not all of them).
According to comments made by Susan in a different context, the
concept of Manifestation corresponds somewhat to the concept of
Perfect Man. And I would say that although Islam would say there
aren't new prophets after Muhammad, it is possible for there to be
"Perfect Men" after the Muhammad. So if this is what "Manifestation"
means then Muslims can look for past, present or future Manifestations
among the awliya (saints) of the community of Muhammad.
> But there are clues/allusions/ intimations in the Holy Qur'an that this
will
> be the case. Thus:
> ****
> 010.049
> YUSUFALI: Say: "I have no power over any harm or profit to myself except
as
> God willeth. TO EVERY PEOPLE IS A TERM APPOINTED: when their term is
> reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance
> (it in anticipation)."
Gilberto:
But how does that suggest abrogating the laws?
> In relation to Shari'ah like everything else the Hand of God is unchained.
> 5:64
> "God's hand is tied up."
> God's hand is fettered
> The hand of God is tied up!"
> Sura 5 condemns any attitude which would say the Hand of God would be tied
> up/fettered/ or chained
Gilberto:
I've heard this accusation a lot from Bahá'ís but I don't believe it is
valid. I think there is a very big and clear distinction between
saying that God can't do something and that God didn't do something.
It is totally consistent to say that God *can* send new manifestations
to abrogate all current laws and replace them with something new, but
then at the same time say that he hasn't or that he won't.
> Also this great reference is really worth thinking about
>
> From the BOOK BURHAAN
>
> Burhaan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir
al-Qur'an.
> 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955).
>
> It is a Book of Tafsir in 4 Volume. The Compiler finished compiling it and
> passed away in 1107 A.H. [153 years before the Dawn of the 12th Imam as
the
> Holy Personage of the Primal Point.
>
> The Imam Ja'far as. S.aadiq [the 6th Imam] was asked : What is the meaning
> of the Holy Qur'an Verse in Sura Kahf [the Cave]
>
> Sura 18:109. Qul law kana albah.ru midadan likalimati rabbee lanafida
> albahru qabla an tanfada kalimatu rabbee walaw ji/na bimithlihi madadan
>
> Sura 18:109
>
> YUSUFALI: Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words
of
> my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my
> Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."
> The Imam was asked: What is the meaning of this verse:
>
> The Infallible Imam replied:
>
> Burhan, (=al-Sayyid Hashim al-Bahrani, Kitab al-burhan fi tafsir
al-Qur'an.
> 4 vols. Tehran, 1375/1955).
>
> Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam God laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa ghaayata wa
> laa yanqat.i'u abadan] In other words ***GOD HERE INFORMS THEE THAT THE
WORD
> OF GOD HAS NO END, NO TERMINATION, AND IT SHALL NEVER CEASE AT ALL.***
>
> This servant suggests this is a most precious find in such a wonderful
Book
> from such a Holy Imam.
>
Someone has pointed that passage out to me before. Here was my answer.
> Page 496 [akhbaraka anna Kalam God laysa lahuu aakhirun wa laa
> ghaayata wa laa yanqat.i u abadan] In other words ***God here informs
> thee that the Word of God has no end, no termination, and It shall
> never cease at all.***
The other thing I wanted to add to this is that just as Bahá'ís argue
that "seal of the prophets" means something different from "last
prophet" that "the word of God has no end" can also mean something
different from "prophets will keep coming over and over like the
Bahá'ís say".
Some reasonable possibilities to consider would be:
1. "the word of god" could specifically refer to the Quran and so it
could mean that the Quran's validity and last forever and never be
abrogated by another.
2. At least for Sunni theologians the Quran, since it is connected to
God's attribute of speech, is actually eternal and uncreated.
3. The Quran could be endless in terms of its meanings. The other day
I was reading a quote attributed to Imam Ali where he said that if he
wanted to he could load up 70 camels with written commentary about
al-Fatihah (the first chapter of the Quran which consists of only 7
verses). And there are numerous similar statements made about the
meanings of passages of the Quran. If only 7 verses can have that much
meaning contained in them, it does not make sense to think that it's
interpretations have been exhausted and that the book is insufficient
for modern times and that we should move on to some other text.
4. In both the Quran, the Bible, and in the writings of other
religions, God creates with the power of his words. God *says* "Let
there Be light" or God *says* "Be" and it is. (Kun fa ya kun). So if
God's words don't end one way to read that is to say that God doesn't
stop acting in the world, doesn't stop creating. And in fact, it is a
mainstream theological claim the physical universe doesn't have
any staying power of its own and that moment to moment to moment, God
is constantly recreating everything over and over again
Peace
Gilberto
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