Dear Gilberto I really liked your letter below. Truly one can say reading this that the Spirit of God working through your knowledge of the Islamic Dispensation has warmed your soul [Nafs] your spirit [Ruh.] and your mind ['aql]
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43042.html We are learning together so to speak... [I am sorry re the Hand of God being chained being misunderstood. The Hand of God is operating even as we speak through His guidance ...] Now as to your points below ****Khazeh: > But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering > what exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the > significance of an Event [be it the significance of their won soul or li fe] or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'án nic verses? Gilberto: No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of the people who have read it through the centuries. [POINT NUMBER ONE] Because most of the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a position to see the Bab or Baháu'lláh. Re this point Number One it is not the physical seeing it is the seeing with love with acceptance with inner submission to the will of God. Pilate saw Jesus. In fact there is a passage in John where the soldiers bring Him and say **ECCE HOMO** Behold the Man And similarly in Mecca they said what manner of man is this who eats food ****025.005 YUSUFALI: And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening." PICKTHAL: And they say: Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. SHAKIR: And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening. 025.006 YUSUFALI: Say: "The (Qur'an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." 025.007 YUSUFALI: And they say: "What sort of a messenger is this, who eats food, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? ... 025.020 YUSUFALI: And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets: We have made some of you as a trial for others: will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things). Re your SECOND POINT [32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. [SECOND POINT]What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that there is a time when Allah no longer "regulates the affair from heaven to the earth" and it seems weird to think something like that might be the case. My reply re this second point. On the broader context of the Divine Providence of course I agree with you and greatly ADMIRE your loving reference to the same Verse and Text. But there is a subtler more nuanced reference here. The Affair in the verse is AMR in the Arabic 032.005 SHAKIR: He regulates the AFFAIR [al-AMR] from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. ***** 32:5. Yudabbiru AL-AMRA mina alssama-i ila al-ardi thumma yaAAruju ilayhi fee yawmin kana miqdaruhu alfa sanatin mimma taAAuddoona**** Because of a considerable amount of background in my humble possession re this AMR this AMR is read as the AMR of God. The Cause of God. The Faith of God. This AMR too in its Essence is One [sanctified above plurality] 054.050 YUSUFALI: And Our Command is but a single (Act),- like the twinkling of an eye. PICKTHAL: And Our commandment is but one (commandment), as the twinkling of an eye. SHAKIR: And Our command is but one, as the twinkling of an eye. *****These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: "Our Cause is but One." Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imams of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: "Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all." (Baha'u'llah: Gleanings, Page: 51)*** You also said: ****Gilberto Gilberto: I agree. As a Sunni I'm supposed to try to cultivate a love for Ahl al-Bayt. That doesn't mean that Shi'is are right automatically. There is an interesting website: http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/ahlibayt/ Which actually looks at ahl al-bayt from a Sunni perspective. Gilberto: The family of the prophet certainly didn't die out with the disappearance of the 12th imam. Muhammad (saaws) has many other descendants throughout Muslim history up to the present day, including many awliya among the Sunni Muslims, people like Abdul Qaadir Jilani for instance, who founded the Qaadiri Sufi order....Gilberto Re this Third Point many of the Qaadiriyya Sufi order came to love and respect Baha'u'llah...It is a long story but very enthralling and thrilling With loving gratitude for your patience khazeh Khazeh, > I am wondering... > > In one of your letters you mentioned kindly about your Christian background . > Was not the Event of Christ's Coming a Judgement in a sense for His people e? Gilberto: No not all his people. (assuming a "Bahai" interpretation)1 Because not everyone will be alive to see it. > Just as His Return in the Reality of Baha'u'llah a Judgement for all? > Gilberto: Even from a Bahai perspective (so I gather, but correct me if I'm wrong) its only a judgement for the people who witnessed it. Khazeh: > You also wrote dear Gilberto that > > I'm not a Shia and even if I was I think it is highly unusual to say > that the dispensation of Muhammad actually started a couple of > centuries after Muhammad passed. If the Babi dispensation started when > the Bab made his declaration, it makes a lot more sense to say that the > dispensation of Muhammad at least started during his lifetime (when he > was born, when the Quran first started coming down, at the start of > the Hejra, or maybe when the verse about "I have perfected for you > your religion" came down). It seems bizarre to say the dispensation of > Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam. Khazeh: > Dear Gilberto > Lest there be a misunderstanding I did not say that the Dispensation of > Muhammad [upon Him be all peace all salutation] started ! in 260 AH. > I said or meant to say that the Alfa Sanah [the thousand year period > mentioned in the S?32: verse 5 and the Surah 22:47] started in the year 260 AH. Dear Khazeh, so let's look at the passage with a little more context. [32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that there is a time when Allah no longer "regulates the affair from heaven to the earth" and it seems weird to think something like that might be the case. Gilberto __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
