On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:45:50 -0000, Khazeh Fananapazir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [Yusuf Ali] > > 034.029 > They say: "When will THIS PROMISE (come to pass) if ye are telling the > truth?" > > 034.030 > > Say: "The APPOINTMENT TO YOU IS FOR A DAY, which ye cannot put > > back for an hour nor put forward."
Gilberto: > Dear Khazeh, when I read passages like the above, they generally make > me think of my individual death. If they referred mainly to > world-historical eschatological events then it is only meaningful to a > portion of people. Plenty of people will miss the coming of the Mahdi. > Plenty of people will miss the second coming of Jesus. Plenty of > people will miss the Beast, and the sun rising in the west, and the > Dajjal. But everyone who was born will die. And that's certainly an > appointment that everyone will make, and no one will speed up or slow > down. > Dear Gilberto > I read the above reply with affection and respect and warm regards for your > reply. Thank You. Khazeh: > But I am a bit puzzled re your logic. In other words I am wondering > what exactly your point is. Is the fact that people miss the > significance of an Event [be it the significance of their won soul or life] > or the Great Significant Event of the Eschatology [ie the Coming of the Bab > and Baha'u'llah] a point that would weaken the challenge of the Qur'anic > verses? Gilberto: No. I'm not saying that people are missing the significance of an event. I'm saying that if the verse means what you seem to think it means, then the passage has actually not been significant to most of the people who have read it through the centuries. Because most of the people who have been reading that passage were never even in a position to see the Bab or Bahaullah. Khazeh, > I am wondering... > > In one of your letters you mentioned kindly about your Christian background. > Was not the Event of Christ's Coming a Judgement in a sense for His people? Gilberto: No not all his people. (assuming a "Bahai" interpretation)1 Because not everyone will be alive to see it. > Just as His Return in the Reality of Baha'u'llah a Judgement for all? > Gilberto: Even from a Bahai perspective (so I gather, but correct me if I'm wrong) its only a judgement for the people who witnessed it. Khazeh: > You also wrote dear Gilberto that > > I'm not a Shia and even if I was I think it is highly unusual to say > that the dispensation of Muhammad actually started a couple of > centuries after Muhammad passed. If the Babi dispensation started when > the Bab made his declaration, it makes a lot more sense to say that the > dispensation of Muhammad at least started during his lifetime (when he > was born, when the Quran first started coming down, at the start of > the Hejra, or maybe when the verse about "I have perfected for you > your religion" came down). It seems bizarre to say the dispensation of > Muhammad didn't start until the disappearance of the last imam. Khazeh: > Dear Gilberto > Lest there be a misunderstanding I did not say that the Dispensation of > Muhammad [upon Him be all peace all salutation] started ! in 260 AH. > I said or meant to say that the Alfa Sanah [the thousand year period > mentioned in the Súrih 32: verse 5 and the Surah 22:47] started in the year > 260 AH. Dear Khazeh, so let's look at the passage with a little more context. [32.4] Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? [32.5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. What about that passage lets you know that the dispensation of Muhammad ends after 1000 years or that the 1000 year period should start when the imamate ends? The passage seems to be talking about Allah. It seems like your interpretation might be suggesting that there is a time when Allah no longer "regulates the affair from heaven to the earth" and it seems weird to think something like that might be the case. Khazeh: > I leave you with two weighty valuable Things [thaqalayn] > **AlTirmidhí in his Sunan (v, 662, no. 3786) records the following > tradition > > ....Jábir ibn `Abd Allah said: "I saw the Messenger of God - upon whom be > God's peace and benedictions - in the course of his H.ajj pilgrimage on the > day of `Arafah. The Prophet (S) was seated on his camel, alQas.wá', and was > delivering a sermon. I heard him say: 'O PEOPLE, I AM LEAVING AMONG YOU THAT > WHICH IF YOU HOLD ON TO YOU SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY: THE BOOK OF GOD AND MY > KINDRED, MY HOUSEHOLD." > One does not need to be a Shi'ih to accept the vital significance of this > Hadith which is also recorded in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah Gilberto: I agree. As a sunni I'm supposed to try to cultivate a love for Ahl al-Bayt. That doesn't mean that Shiis are right automatically. There is an interesting website: http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/ahlibayt/ Which actually looks at ahl al-bayt from a sunni perspective. Gilberto: The family of the prophet certainly didn't die out with the disappearance of the 12th imam. Muhammad (saaws) has many other descendants throughout Muslim history up to the present day, including many awliya among the sunni Muslims, people like Abdul Qadir Jilani for instance, who founded the Qadri Sufi order. > my dear Gilberto writes: > **** In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the > Perfect Man or the Qut.b, in a certain sense Muslims might even recognize > new Manifestations. The only question is whether the Shari'ah has been > abrogated or not.**** Khazeh: > The Abrogation of the Shari'ah is really within the Will [Mashiyyat] of the > Supreme Ordainer, exalted be His Names and Attributes. That's the claim you are making. And that's probably one of the essential points of difference between the Bahai faith and Islam. Peace Gilberto __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
