Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:16:45 -0600, Don Calkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 5:09 PM -0600 12/24/04, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Some relevant passages from Susan's paper below. [deleted] If they are accurate then it seems likely that even if we ignore the the statements about collective security and righteous warfare in the Bahai writings, that it would be possible to invoke hikmat to apparently suspend the Bahai 'abrogation' of holy war to ensure the protection of the Faith to guard and protect the Cause Don: The Writings are pretty explicit that this is not the case Gilberto: The writings are also pretty explicit about a strong belief of freedom of speech an unfettered expression and yet you still have review. Gilberto: My impression of what is going on is that the Bahai have is perhaps more clear than other religions about not having any absolutes. So given a particular circumstance, most if not all the rules would be subject to suspension if necessary. So yes you might have rules which cover certain behaviors but the rules all have exceptions. Baha'u'llah indicates that t Here is a recurring trouble I have about the Bahai faith. I think that I just a fundamentally different perspective on time and morality. This is a quote of a part of the Suriy-i-Haykal 42 Beware lest ye shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men's hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God's mercy, hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand. (--Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Page 78-9) But in Susan's paper she suggests that all the laws in the Aqdas are dependent on the exercise of wisdom. I think part of my misgivings with the Bahai faith have to do with a different attitude towards time and morality. I mean, if something is immoral, why wouldn't it always be immoral? (given sufficiently similar situations) Morality shouldn't depend on merely the passing of time on the calendar. So if you really believe that Muhammad and Hussein practiced something called holy war why was it ok then, and not ok now? And it wasn't just ok if we are talking about the behavior directed by a Manifestation and one of his infallible successors. So why would the rules change? Did the value of human life rise over the years? Are human beings incapable now of sinking to brutal depths (Rwanada, the killing fields of Cambodia, communal violence in Gujurat, the holocaust, bosnian genocides) Are you saying that it is absolutely impossible for the Bahais to be in a situation similar to those of the the early Muslims under Muhammad and Hussein? Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Clarification and Progressive Revelation and Peace
I wrote: So, essentially, the position of Baha'u'llah's followers is the same as Abel's: If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. We practice non-resistance in the face of religious persecution because we fear Allah... And, Dear Gilberto, you responded: The point I was making with the Cain and Abel story is that Muslims didn'thave to wait for the Bahahi faith to come allow non-resistance. This message is already contained within the Quran from a certain point of view. I'm sorry if it seemed I missed your point... I completely understood that Muhammed reinterated that story of Cain and Abel to emphasize the value in non-resistance as exemplified by Abel. And, yes, it has been there for all to see and follow. And, before Him, Christ: Matthew 5:17-22 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. We have this from - God Passes By - written by the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi: The ascendancy achieved by Bahá'u'lláh was nowhere better demonstrated than in His ability to broaden the outlook and transform the character of the community to which He belonged. Though Himself nominally a Bábí, though the provisions of the Bayan were still regarded as binding and inviolable, He was able to inculcate a standard which, while not incompatible with its tenets, was ethically superior to the loftiest principles which the Bábí Dispensation had established. The salutary and fundamental truths advocated by the Báb, that had either been obscured, neglected or misrepresented, were moreover elucidated by Bahá'u'lláh, reaffirmed and instilled afresh into the corporate life of the community, and into the souls of the individuals who comprised it. The dissociation of the Bábí Faith from every form of political activity and from all secret associations and factions; the emphasis placed on the principle of non-violence; the necessity of strict obedience to established authority; the ban imposed on all forms of sedition, on back-biting, retaliation, and dispute; the stress laid on godliness, kindliness, humility and piety, on honesty and truthfulness, chastity and fidelity, on justice, toleration, sociability, amity and concord, on the acquisition of arts and sciences, on self-sacrifice and detachment, on patience, steadfastness and resignation to the will of God -- all these constitute the salient features of a code of ethical conduct to which the books, treatises and epistles, revealed during those years, by the indefatigable pen of Bahá'u'lláh, unmistakably bear witness. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 132-33) My point was that the story also clearly demonstrates the Baha'i position on non-resistance in the presence of religious persecution. That would be retaliation and would serve no purpose.Through non-resistance we become an instrument of God's Justice - even if it means sacrificing our life, as Abel did. And, also this, from Baha'u'llah. O friends! Help ye the one true God, exalted be His glory, by your goodly deeds, by such conduct and character as shall be acceptable in His sight. He that seeketh to be a helper of God in this Day, let him close his eyes to whatever he may possess, and open them to the things of God. Let him cease to occupy himself with that which profiteth him, and concern himself with that which shall exalt the all-compelling name of the Almighty. He should cleanse his heart from all evil passions and corrupt desires, for THE FEAR OF GOD IS THE WEAPON THAT CAN RENDER HIM VICTORIOUS, the primary instrument whereby he can achieve his purpose. The FEAR OF GOD IS THE SHIELD THAT DEFENDETH HIS CAUSE, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn
Re: Bahai jihad?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 06:25:18 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Gilberto, Just want to say I agree with the recent post by Don C. and support his choice of scripture. Let me add this to the previously mentioned passages from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, because it too, demonstrates how one can defend His Faith without resorting to violent acts: If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. [rest deleted] Gilberto: Yes, and there are hadith which say that the ink of the pen of the scholar is more precious than the blood of martyrs. No one is saying that violence is to be encouraged, but that at certain times and places it may be necessary. I think alot of this discussion is theoretical because Bahais are just isolated individuals right now but let's consider a hypothetical scenario. Let's say the Bahai faith grows to be more prominent. Let's say there are a few countries with Bahai majorities and try to run their affairs according to Bahai principles. Let's say that for whatever reason certain religious militant fundamentalists look at the Bahai faith's global ambitions and claims to have superceded the previous religions and see the growing Bahai faith as a threat. They don't want oil, they don't want resources, they don't want access to fresh water or any other mundane goal. But they see the Bahai faith as a threat to their worldview, their culture, their religion. And as a response, several countries led by religious militant fundamentalists join together an attack the few Bahai countries which exist. So would it be permissible for the Bahai country to fight back? If the Bahai country fought back, would that be considered a holy war? Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Hi, Gilberto, At 08:32 AM 12/25/2004, you wrote: I think part of my misgivings with the Bahai faith have to do with a different attitude towards time and morality. I mean, if something is immoral, why wouldn't it always be immoral? (given sufficiently similar situations) Morality shouldn't depend on merely the passing of time on the calendar. Perhaps the issue centers around one's view of rationality. To my understanding, the usual approach found in the Baha'i texts is Wertrationalitäet or substantive rationality. (It is similar, I think, to Cornelius van Til's concept of presuppositionalism.) Rationality, in my view, refers to God's reasons (His Will). If certain virtues or recommended behaviors remain the same from age to age, it is because God has made that determination. If they change, as with the Qiblih, Salat, or Sawm, again, it is due to God's judgement. There is no state of goodness which is pre-existent to God's Will. Perhaps we can sometimes discern the reasons for certain changes. More often than not, we may have no idea. IMO, this is one of the many areas in which faith must simply be divorced from human reason. So if you really believe that Muhammad and Hussein practiced something called holy war why was it ok then, and not ok now? Perhaps because the establishment of global governance requires collective security. Are human beings incapable now of sinking to brutal depths (Rwanada, the killing fields of Cambodia, communal violence in Gujurat, the holocaust, bosnian genocides) I don't see how that is an argument for religious warfare. If anything, it points to the need for collective security. Are you saying that it is absolutely impossible for the Bahais to be in a situation similar to those of the the early Muslims under Muhammad and Hussein? If so, then Baha'is would normally be expected to behave differently. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?
Hi, Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 12/25/2004, you wrote: The question is in the subject line. Wouldn't the passage below endorse the idea that there are some perennial commandments, and guidelines to human behavior across the manifestations? And the important thing is to follow that spiritual core. How is this the same or different from what the Perennialists are saying? If Susan is reading this message, perhaps she could comment. The difference between the philosophia perennis and my understanding of the Baha'i view is not necessarily seen the result, but in the cause. The eternal teachings of the Prophets, those which do not change, are, similar to those laws which may change from one Dispensation to the next, founded on the Will of God. They emanate from, but do not manifest, God. On the other hand, most proponents of the perennial (Platonic) approach I have read do not make a distinction between manifestation and emanation. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 10:50:19 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 12/25/2004, you wrote: The question is in the subject line. Wouldn't the passage below endorse the idea that there are some perennial commandments, and guidelines to human behavior across the manifestations? And the important thing is to follow that spiritual core. How is this the same or different from what the Perennialists are saying? Mark: If Susan is reading this message, perhaps she could comment. Mark: The difference between the philosophia perennis and my understanding of the Baha'i view is not necessarily seen the result, but in the cause. Gilberto: I'm not sure I follow? Mark: The eternal teachings of the Prophets, those which do not change, are, similar to those laws which may change from one Dispensation to the next, founded on the Will of God. Gilberto: But as long as you admit that there *are* eternal teachings of the prophets which don't change, isn't that perennialism right there? Earlier, when I've heard you or Susan object to Perennialism it seemed like you were giving the impression that there were no fixed rules. That any of the commandments could change. And there were no eternal laws. But the passage from Abdul Baha seems to allow for the possibility that there is a core which doesn't change from prophet to prophet. The Holy of Holies. I mean look at that passage: the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things--that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. I mean, am I missing something? This is saying that the fundamental basis, the essnece of the laws of the various prophets does not change or alter. It will never be abrogated. And the passage ends: These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. I mean seems pretty clear from this passage that Perennialism is basically true. The only issue would be some technical detail here or there. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Hi, Gilberto, At 11:12 AM 12/25/2004, you wrote: Ok, I will be making a field trip to the encyclopedia now...lol... The term Wertrationalitäet (substantive rationality) comes from Max Weber. He distinguished it from Zweckrationalitäet (instrumental or formal rationality). Wertrationalitäet refers to actions which conform with one's values. Zweckrationalitäet is something like the shortest distance between two points. Cornelius val Til was one of the originators of presuppositionalism, a Calvinist approach to apologetics. His view was that, in making biblically based arguments, one needed to accept certain presuppositions. One could then take them to demonstrate the efficiency of one's positions. (The problem with this approach is that an a priori acceptance of presuppositions can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.) .But in some occasions you need to deal with violent aggressors with force. Yes. But when Bahais make a big deal out say that holy war has been abrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful, or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when there are significant exceptions which make that untrue. If so, it is really a commentary on the assumptions of those Baha'is. Pacifism is clearly *not* taught in the Baha'i primary sources: With reference to the absolute pacifists, or conscientious objectors to war; their attitude, judged from the Baha'i standpoint, is quite anti-social and due to its exaltation of the individual conscience leads inevitably to disorder and chaos in society. Extreme pacifists are thus very close to the anarchists, in the sense that both of these groups lay an undue emphasis on the rights and merits of the individual. The Baha'i conception of social life is essentially based on the subordination of the individual will to that of society. It neither suppresses the individual nor does it exalt him to the point of making him an anti-social creature, a menace to society. As in everything, it follows the `golden mean'. The only way that society can function is for the minority to follow the will of the majority. -- From a letter, dated Nov. 21, 1935, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (Lights of Guidance, p.408) Alot of times I get the impression that Bahai self-descriptions give the impression of being significantly and substantially different from Islam. And given an environment where people have a lot of bias and prejudice against Islam, such statements will probably play very well. In some cases, they are. In others, they are not. However, most Western Baha'is are not sufficiently familiar with Islam to make that judgement. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Gilberto wrote: ...it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful, or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when there are significant exceptions which make that untrue. The exceptions are so closely defined that I can't agree that this is untrue. We are, unlike the Quakers for instance, permitted to defend ourselves, and it's true that the early, formative years of the Babí and Bahá'í Faith were characterized by a good deal of violence and bloodshed, as the entire establishment of Islamic theocracy attempted to wipe out the New Revelation. A study of the history of those years shows pretty clearly that there was more than mere human will involved in the establishment of the Faith. Alot of times I get the impression that Bahá'í self-descriptions give the impression of being significantly and substantially different from Islam. And given an environment where people have a lot of bias and prejudice against Islam, such statements will probably play very well. But on further examination, it seems like the Bahá'i claims aren't significantly different. And the two main examples which come to mind are gender equality and the use of force. Well, consider the opponent to which you are referring. The world has not seen, nor will it ever see, any mass-militancy on the part of Bahá'ís that corresponds to that of the Islamic world. And so-called Christians have a history that is, at times, equally shameful. While the current war in which we are engaged is not a matter of Christianity vs. Islam, many people on both sides do seem to view it that way. It can, to be sure, be viewed as a confrontation between Christianism and Islamism. But it is not the same as the Crusades, for instance, which really were a foray by avowed Christians to wipe Islam from certain areas of the world. Even today, certain avowed Christians accept violence as a way of enforcing their theology, as in the bombing of women's clinics and the assassination (a word that comes straight out of the Islamic world!) of the doctors who operate them. As for the equality of men and women, Bahá'ís realize that equality and equivalency are not identical concepts. Many of us are puzzled by the fact that the UHJ is so constituted as to include only men at this time. We are told specifically that there is a reason for this which will become clear with the passage of time, and for the most part at least, our faith allows us to accept this. Aside from this one administrative exception, women are not only fully equal in the Bahá'í Faith, but in some ways exalted over men, as in the area of education. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:44:03 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gilberto, .But in some occasions you need to deal with violent aggressors with force. Yes. Gilberto: But when Bahais make a big deal out [of saying] that holy war has been abrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful, or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when there are significant exceptions which make that untrue. Mark: If so, it is really a commentary on the assumptions of those Baha'is. Pacifism is clearly *not* taught in the Baha'i primary sources: Gilberto: Alot of times I get the impression that Bahai self-descriptions give the impression of being significantly and substantially different from Islam. And given an environment where people have a lot of bias and prejudice against Islam, such statements will probably play very well. Mark: In some cases, they are. In others, they are not. However, most Western Baha'is are not sufficiently familiar with Islam to make that judgement. Gilberto: The whole thing can get complex and messy. On the one hand there are deeply held Western biases against Islam and the East and to some degree those are retained by Western Bahais. (Or at least, they are not immediately removed upon conversion). On top of that I would expect that if Bahais are going to say they believe in Muhammad and the Quran and speak confidently about how much more progressed the Bahai faith is over Islam, then they actually should do their homework about Islam. So I'm going to have a hard time being cool with the idea that ignorance of Islam is some sort of excuse or justification. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:46:06 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto wrote: ...it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful, or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when there are significant exceptions which make that untrue. The exceptions are so closely defined that I can't agree that this is untrue. Gilberto: Ok then. So in your opinion what were the original God-given rules governing warfare which were followed by Muhammad and Hussein? I'm not talking about how the rules may have been abused or violated by people afterwards. But the original rules established by the Manifestation and explained and affirmed by the lawful successors? The clearest statement I know of is in Some Answered Questions and there Abdul-Baha says all of Muhammad's battles were defensive, and he put up with a great deal of persecution before warfare was resorted to. So off hand that doesn't sound like the Bahai faith is any better. He even says that if Jesus were in the same situation he would have had to have resorted to the same methods just to protect people's lives. (Presumably the same would have been true for Bahaullah or the Bab) Offhand, that sounds no more violent than the Bahai faith. Gilberto: Alot of times I get the impression that Bahá'í self-descriptions give the impression of being significantly and substantially different from Islam. And given an environment where people have a lot of bias and prejudice against Islam, such statements will probably play very well. But on further examination, it seems like the Bahá'i claims aren't significantly different. And the two main examples which come to mind are gender equality and the use of force. Dave: Well, consider the opponent to which you are referring. The world has not seen, nor will it ever see, any mass-militancy on the part of Bahá'ís that corresponds to that of the Islamic world. Gilberto: In terms of world history, the Muslim world has generally been more peaceful. If you look at Christendom there is alot of disunity and violence which comes from the West, through the colonial period, and the rise if nation-states. Dave: And so-called Christians have a history that is, at times, equally shameful. Gilberto: And the early Christians started off as pacifist. Preaching non-resistance and turning the other cheek. You have no basis for saying that Bahais wouldn't do the same if they were given the power. While the current war in which we are engaged is not a matter of Christianity vs. Islam, many people on both sides do seem to view it that way. It can, to be sure, be viewed as a confrontation between Christianism and Islamism. But it is not the same as the Crusades, for instance, which really were a foray by a vowed Christians to wipe Islam from certain areas of the world. Gilberto: I think it is very complicated all the way around. The crusades had their own economic resource driven component as well. AFter all, it was basically about control of land. And the curent warfare is certainly evonomic primarily, but it also has its ideological component too. Most of the population of Iraq are Shii Muslims. I've heard that there are polls which suggest that most of the population would like a religious government. If it is all really about democracy and freedom and the will of the people, then what kind of government should be set up there? But would the US government want an Islamic government in Iraq? Even today, certain avowed Christians accept violence as a way of enforcing their theology, as in the bombing of women's clinics and the assassination (a word that comes straight out of the Islamic world!) of the doctors who operate them. The word assassin is etymologically related to hashishin but the practice of killing non-combatants is not Islamic so I hope you weren't intending to suggest that it was. Incidentally, isn't the Bahai faith pro-life? Is abortion the same as murder? In the Bahai faith would stopping abortions be considered the same as stopping a murder? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So would it be permissible for the Bahai country to fight back? It is proper for a nation to defend itself when attacked. It is not proper for an individual to reort to violence for his own reasons. A state has responsibilities that an individual may not have. No, this would not be jihad (holy war). This would be war in de4fense which is permissable to states under Baha`i principles. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:06 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And the two main examples which come to mindare gender equality and the use of force. Use of force for states in defense of the nation is permissable, but not "holy". Gender equality is progressive from Islamic custom not radically different. You have forgotten to consider that under Islamic law a woman may not initiate divorce, in the Baha`i faith she may. A daughter is not preferentially given educational opportunities in Islam, in the Bahai Faith she is. A woman running her own business or interests in most Islamic societies operates under much more severe disadvantages than she would in a Baha`i society. Does this say that Islam is somehow more primitive?/ God forbid. The Revelation of God is the Revelation of God. But the revelation of Muhammed was tailor made for the world of Muhammed. Time changes. Society changes. Baha`i's believe that man is supposed to build an ever - advancing civilization. That REQUIRES change from age to age. The Revelation of God is never PERFECT, because it is given to man and man MUST progress according to God'w will (from the Baha`i stand-point). Does that mean that in the future the Baha`i Revelation will no longer be tailor made for this advancing civilization? Of course, it does. God's Revelation is progressive NEVER to be completed. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Gilberto wrote: Ok then. So in your opinion what were the original God-given rules governing warfare which were followed by Muhammad and Hussein? [D.A.L.] I cannot claim to have a sufficiently deep understanding of Islam to give you a good answer to this. I've based my understanding on the statements by many Muslims that Islam is a peaceful religion. Gilberto: Offhand, that sounds no more violent than the Bahai faith. [D.A.L.] Beside the early formative years in which the Babís and Bahá'ís clashed with the Islamic theocracy, I cannot understand why you see the Bahá'í Faith as being violent. You seem to be kind of stuck on this point, whereas I see no reality to back you up. Gilberto: In terms of world history, the Muslim world has generally been more peaceful. If you look at Christendom there is alot of disunity and violence which comes from the West, through the colonial period, and the rise if nation-states. [D.A.L.] I can't argue with that. I agree with your point about Christendom. I don't, however, see how that supports the allegation that the Bahá'í Faith is characterized by a history of violence. Gilberto: And the early Christians started off as pacifist. Preaching non-resistance and turning the other cheek. You have no basis for saying that Bahais wouldn't do the same if they were given the power. [D.A.L.] My basis for that statement is my understanding of my religion. It's true that I can't predict the future. Gilberto: Incidentally, isn't the Bahai faith pro-life? Is abortion the same as murder? In the Bahai faith would stopping abortions be considered the same as stopping a murder? [D.A.L.] I think that all religions are ultimately pro-life. This is as much a cultural issue as a religious one. Your question whether abortion is the same as murder is one that has caused dissension for generations, and I don't think we can settle it here. The Bahá'í Faith allows a great deal of personal freedom, and probably most of us (Bahá'ís) would agree that there are times when abortion is justifiedalthough I do not speak for anyone but myself. I can't help thinking of the situation in the reactionary Islamic theocracies where the victim of a rape is considered to have shamed her community, and is in danger of being put to death. This would be unlikely to occur in either a Christian or Bahá'í setting. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
Let's say that for whatever reason certain religious militant fundamentalists look at the Bahai faith's global ambitions and claims to have superceded the previous religions and see the growing Bahai faith as a threat. First it should be said that there is precious little in the Baha'i Writings about such a future condition in society. There is more about the Lesser Peace, when non-Baha'i international institutions govern the world. The Lesser Peace itself goes through stages. One of those stages is, to my understanding, when there are Baha'i governmental institutions related to secular institutions. Shoghi Effendi refers to this in explaining the verse in the Master's Will about the relationship between the executive and the government. At some stage there will then emerge the Baha'i Commonwealth, and apparently this is where Gilberto's question comes in. How the Baha'i Commonwealth relates to the timing of the Most Great Peace, I'm not sure. In any event, what I want to say on this point is that this is a very long process, and great changes will have taken place in the human race. The great cleansing force Shoghi Effendi describes in the opening words of The Promised Day is Come will have run its course. Cataclysms will have occurred. Mass skepticism will have been replaced by mass spiritualization. Prejudices and passions will have been stilled. The Trust of God Baha'u'llah describes as latent in each soul will have emerged. Baha'u'llah predicts a day when a woman can travel the entire surface of the earth and not only be unhindered and unmolested -- but she will not have been looked on with lust even one time. So in considering theoreticals, to be fair, in my view we have to take into account the maturation of human beings. The Lesser Peace is when force is needed by governments to control the tyrants. The Most Great Peace is, to my understanding, when crime, whether local or international, is pretty much a thing of the past. In sum, I am saying I don't accept the premise of the conjecture. To the degree that the hypothetical is valid, my answer would be the same as already stated -- governments have a duty to protect their people. Shoghi Effendi has written that the persecution of the Iranian Baha'is in the past will be far outstripped by the future worldwide persecution of the Baha'i Faith, that when the fullness of the claim of Baha'u'llah is realized, persecution will be worldwide and universal. Yet the principle of no holy war, no defense of the Baha'i Faith as a faith, will hold. As Shoghi Effendi also predicts, this will attract the greatest persecutors to become Baha'is. This occurs in every Dispensation. The great persecutor of Christians Saul, witnessed the spiritual exaltation of St. Stephen as he was being martyred by stoning, and became St. Paul. This process will occur on a wider scale. As far as the view that the Baha'i Faith really does not uphold the equality of men and women, my response is to say, take a look at the changes in the generality of the Baha'i community. Look in families, look on local and national Asssemblies, look at couples. I think that it is fair to say that, as far as we still have to go, a great distance has been traveled. I was watching Gandhi and in that program his wife states that her husband is her Lord. That attitude is entirely gone in the Baha'i Faith. As the House of Justice has made clear, the couple is to consult, and sometimes the husband defers to the wife, sometimes vice-versa. That is a very significant social change. Since the Baha'i Writings address the very roots of problems, it takes time before the Baha'is implement them properly. Then, it takes time for those seeds to come to harvest. My point is, look to improvements in the grassroots. This demonstrates that to us, the principle of the equality of the sexes is a real one. Another thing to keep in mind is that we do not have only one Book. The authentic Baha'i Writings are manyfold larger in volume than the Bible or the Qur'an. I would guess that on my own shelf in English I have easily thirty times the volume of the Qur'an. The Writings published in Persian and Arabic of course exceed that amount, and the unpublished add yet another factor. So it takes time for us Baha'is to get familiar with our own Writings. It takes decades of methodical study. I'm not talking about the lifetime of study of the Word, that it always yields new fruit. I'm talking about even a first good reading. Add to that the number of books on Islamic topics by Baha'is, and our efforts to understand at a deep level the principle of progressive Revelation, and how this newly expressed dynamic all fits together. There is also the principle of the sacralization of that which was profane, and the desacralization of what came before. Chris Buck goes into this in one of his two very good books, I think the second one.
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:00:41 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:06 AM Central Standard Time, Gender equality is progressive from Islamic custom not radically different. You have forgotten to consider that under Islamic law a woman may not initiate divorce, in the Baha`i faith she may. Dear Scott: I'm not sure what you mean by initiate. A woman can go to a judge and get divorced. Scott: A daughter is not preferentially given educational opportunities in Islam, in the Bahai Faith she is. There are hadith which strongly emphasize the merit of educating daughters specifically. A woman running her own business or interests in most Islamic societies operates under much more severe disadvantages than she would in a Baha`i society. Where is there a Bahai society? How can you make the comparison? I certainly realize that Muslim societies face certain difficulties. Many of these difficulties are actually fairly common in many formerly colonized developing world nations whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hundu etc. They are more rooted in the political situation than in religion. Does this say that Islam is somehow more primitive?/ God forbid. The Revelation of God is the Revelation of God. But the revelation of Muhammed was tailor made for the world of Muhammed. According to the Bab, each religion was fit to be universal. They weren't just limited in scope. Scott: Time changes. Society changes. Baha`i's believe that man is supposed to build an ever - advancing civilization. Sure, the same concept even existed in Judaism. All religions have dictates to make the world a better place. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:23:31 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto wrote: Ok then. So in your opinion what were the original God-given rules governing warfare which were followed by Muhammad and Hussein? [D.A.L.] I cannot claim to have a sufficiently deep understanding of Islam to give you a good answer to this. I've based my understanding on the statements by many Muslims that Islam is a peaceful religion. Gilberto: Offhand, that sounds no more violent than the Bahai faith. [D.A.L.] Beside the early formative years in which the Babís and Bahá'ís clashed with the Islamic theocracy, I cannot understand why you see the Bahá'í Faith as being violent. Gilberto: I don't think I said that the Bahai faith is violent. But Bahais making a point of saying holy war has been blotted out the book especially combined with the idea of progressive revelation, would give the impression that they are somehow specifically claiming to be less violent than islam. Is that a fair statement? I think if you are going to compare religions, ideals should be compared to ideals. And realities should be compared to realities. For example, it doesn't make sense to compare a pretty statement about non-violence from the Bahai writings with the recent suicide bombing in Iraq. You have to look at what the actual teachings of Muhammad and the Quran on warfare are and you compare them to what the Bahai writings say. And if you are going to compare histories, then look at both the high parts and low parts. Gilberto: In terms of world history, the Muslim world has generally been more peaceful. If you look at Christendom there is alot of disunity and violence which comes from the West, through the colonial period, and the rise if nation-states. [D.A.L.] I can't argue with that. I agree with your point about Christendom. I don't, however, see how that supports the allegation that the Bahá'í Faith is characterized by a history of violence. Gilberto: I've never said the Bahai faith is characterized by a history of violence. What I would claim is that its rules on the use of force and violence are not significantly closer to pacifism than Islam's. [On the example of abortion clinic doctors being killed by Christian terrorists] Gilberto: Incidentally, isn't the Bahai faith pro-life? Is abortion the same as murder? In the Bahai faith would stopping abortions be considered the same as stopping a murder? [D.A.L.] I think that all religions are ultimately pro-life. This is as much a cultural issue as a religious one. Your question whether abortion is the same as murder is one that has caused dissension for generations, and I don't think we can settle it here. The Bahá'í Faith allows a great deal of personal freedom, and probably most of us (Bahá'ís) would agree that there are times when abortion is justifiedalthough I do not speak for anyone but myself. I can't help thinking of the situation in the reactionary Islamic theocracies where the victim of a rape is considered to have shamed her community, and is in danger of being put to death. This would be unlikely to occur in either a Christian or Bahá'í setting. I don't think this is a religious issue. There is no religious justification for this kind of a practice. The way shame and honor play a role in certain societies is basically due to culture not religion. I think that much is clear from how you've described it. I mean the Bahai notion of progressive revelation says pretty clearly that Islam is more spiritually progressed than Christianity so honor-killings aren't something which come out of religious principles and I certainly don't have to convert to another religion to be able to say that honor killings are wrong. Besides, the demographics of Christianity are changing. Christianity is becoming extinct in Europe and moving south to Asia, Africa and Latin America. I while ago I heard newstory that some European countries are facing shortages of priests and so they filled their vacancies with surplus priests from Africa. I think if you took North-South developed world- developing world issues into account, it would help you see more clearly which issues have their root in religion and which have origins elsewhere. Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
That is interesting. Do you have the specific reference for that? Especially the ban on holy war. We should also bear in mind that the distinguishing character of the Bah' Revelation does not solely consist in the completeness and unquestionable validity of the Dispensation which the teachings of Bah'u'llh and 'Abdu'l-Bah have established. Its excellence lies also in the fact that those elements which in past Dispensations have, without the least authority from their Founders, been a source of corruption and of incalculable harm to the Faith of God, have been strictly excluded by the clear text of Bah'u'llh's writings. Those unwarranted practices, in connection with the sacrament of baptism, of communion, of confession of sins, of asceticism, of priestly domination, of elaborate ceremonials, of holy war and of polygamy, have one and all been rigidly suppressed by the Pen of Bah'u'llh... (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 22) For let every earnest upholder of the Cause of Bah'u'llh realize that the storms which this struggling Faith of God must needs encounter, as the process of the disintegration of society advances, shall be fiercer than any which it has already experienced. Let him be aware that so soon as the full measure of the stupendous claim of the Faith of Bah'u'llh comes to be recognized by those time-honored and powerful strongholds of orthodoxy, whose deliberate aim is to maintain their stranglehold over the thoughts and consciences of men, this infant Faith will have to contend with enemies more powerful and more insidious than the cruellest torture-mongers and the most fanatical clerics who have afflicted it in the past. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 17) Stupendous as is the struggle which His words foreshadow, they also testify to the complete victory which the upholders of the Greatest Name are destined eventually to achieve. Peoples, nations, adherents of divers faiths, will jointly and successively arise to shatter its unity, to sap its force, and to degrade its holy name. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 17) Such was the rivalry between the last two princes, who vied with each other in courting the favor of their father, that each endeavored, with the support of the leading mujtahids within his jurisdiction, to outshine the other in the meritorious task of hunting, plundering and exterminating the members of a defenseless community, who, at the bidding of Bah'u'llh, had ceased to offer armed resistance even in self-defense, and were carrying out His injunction that 'it is better to be killed than kill.' (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 198) So in trying to put all this together, I'd offer this tentatively: `Abdu'l-Baha states that the wars of the Prophet Muhammad were defensive wars. Without them, His community would have been exterminated. However, `Abdu'l-Baha also states (Some Answered Questions 51-52) that the acts of the Umayyads were contrary to the will of God. So while the wars of Muhammad were defensive, the wars of conquest by leaders who succeeded Him were not all within the divine intention. So holy war is used in one sense to mean a war to spread the divine religion, and in another sense to mean a war to defend the religious community. It is my understanding that Baha'u'llah has prohibited both in this Dispensation. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Gilberto, At 12:29 PM 12/25/2004, you wrote: Incidentally, isn't the Bahai faith pro-life? Is abortion the same as murder? In the Bahai faith would stopping abortions be considered the same as stopping a murder? The term pro-life refers to a political and social movement. Although Shoghi Effendi said that abortions should not be permitted unless authorized by the woman's physician, there is currently no official Baha'i policy on this matter. Therefore, the Baha'i Faith could not be a part of the pro-life movement. If there comes a time when Shoghi Effendi's viewpoint is implemented by the Universal House of Justice, I would like to assume it would do so in a manner different in style and tone from the current evangelical and fundamentalist Christian pro-life movement. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?
Gilberto, I wrote: The difference between the philosophia perennis and my understanding of the Baha'i view is not necessarily seen the result, but in the cause. You replied: I'm not sure I follow? In other words, there are eternal teachings, but the explanations given for it in the Baha'i texts are, to my understanding, different from the common perennialist argument. But as long as you admit that there *are* eternal teachings of the prophets which don't change, isn't that perennialism right there? Outwardly. The problem is that proponents of the philosophia perennis generally ground these eternal teachings in a static ontology of being. The Baha'i view, as I understand it, replaces ontological realism with Covenant (relationships). Earlier, when I've heard you or Susan object to Perennialism it seemed like you were giving the impression that there were no fixed rules. That any of the commandments could change. And there were no eternal laws. I would never say there are no fixed rules or eternal laws. However, if they are fixed or eternal, it is because God desires them to be that way. They are emanations from God, not manifestations of God. But the passage from Abdul Baha seems to allow for the possibility that there is a core which doesn't change from prophet to prophet. The Holy of Holies. I agree there is a core, however expressed, which does not change from Prophet to Prophet. I mean, am I missing something? This is saying that the fundamental basis, the essnece of the laws of the various prophets does not change or alter. It will never be abrogated. Descriptively, the Baha'i approach is, as I see it, virtually the same as the one used by most perennialists, including the traditionalists. Explanatorily, there are considerable differences. I mean seems pretty clear from this passage that Perennialism is basically true. The only issue would be some technical detail here or there. I would say outwardly true, not basically true. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Hi, Gilberto, At 06:09 PM 12/25/2004, you wrote: Hmm, the above sounds kind of like a policy. But the basic question I had was whether abortion would be equivalent to murder. Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings. -- From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983 (Lights of Guidance, p.345) Murder is a legal term. Often the differences between the various degrees of murder and manslaughter are little more than the determinations of the courts (sometimes a result of plea bargaining). Obviously, abortions involve the taking of human life. However, whether they would be classified under murder is the prerogative of the Universal House of Justice. And is that really how the rule is stated? So you can get an abortion if your doctor says its okay? Or do they have to be medically necessary? As you are aware, the Baha'i Writings prohibit the practice of abortion solely for the purpose of terminating unwanted pregnancies; however, circumstances may occur in which an abortion would be justifiable. The Texts of the Faith do not specify what these circumstances are, and the House of Justice does not wish to legislate on this matter presently. Therefore, a Baha'i couple faced with making this decision should be guided by this principle, the best medical advice possible, and their individual consciences. --From a letter dated May 21, 1992, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual http://bahai-library.com/uhj/reproduction.html With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Baha'i Teachings on Abortion
Although Shoghi Effendi said that abortions should not be permitted unless authorized by the woman's physician I suggest that is an incomplete statement of the teachings on the subject. I have posted some quotes below that put the matter of consulation with the physician into a context. there is currently no official Baha'i policy on this matter. I'm not sure I can identify what matter you are speaking of here. There is a clear general policy forbidding abortion; but as the House states below, there are certain possible exceptions, and also, it has not legislated definitively on all aspects of the subject where the Text is silent. Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings. (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983; Lights of Guidance, 2nd edition, p. 344) Basically the deliberate taking of human life is forbidden in the Cause, but the Sacred Text envisages certain possible exceptions to this rule and allows for the Universal House of Justice to legislate upon them. One such possible exception is the matter of abortion. It is clear that it is absolutely forbidden for a woman to have an abortion merely because she wants to have one, but there may be circumstances in which an abortion might be justified. However, at the present time we do not wish to legislate on whether or in what circumstances abortion may be permitted, and therefore the whole matter is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice on the case in the light of the general guidance given in the Teachings. (Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 5, 1975, to a National Spiritual Assembly; Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities, Chapter 19) Abortion and surgical operations for the purpose of preventing the birth of unwanted children are forbidden in the Cause unless there are circumstances which justify such actions on medical grounds, in which case the decision, at present, is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the Teachings. Beyond this nothing has been found in the Writings concerning specific methods or procedures to be used in family planning. It should be pointed out, however, that the Teachings state that the soul appears at conception, and that therefore it would be improper to use such a method, the effect of which would be to produce an abortion after conception has taken place. (From letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, May 23, 1975; Lights of Guidance, p. 344) As you have keenly observed, the Universal House of Justice may consider it untimely to make definitive rulings on certain matters to which no direct reference can be found in the Sacred Text. Among these are euthanasia and certain aspects of birth control and abortion, and until such time as rulings are made, these matters are left to the consciences of those concerned who must weigh the medical advice on the case in the light of general guidance given in the Teachings. (The Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, 2nd edition, p. 289) The Universal House of Justice does not feel that the time has come for it to provide detailed legislation on subjects such as abortion, homosexuality and other moral issues. The principles pertaining to these issues are available in the book Lights of Guidance and elsewhere. In studying these principles, it should be noted that in most areas of human behaviour there are acts which are clearly contrary to the law of God and others which are clearly approved or permissible; between these there is often a grey area where it is not immediately apparent what should be done. It has been a human tendency to wish to eliminate these grey areas so that every aspect of life is clearly prescribed. A result of this tendency has been the tremendous accretion of interpretation and subsidiary legislation which has smothered the spirit of certain of the older religions. In the Bah' Faith moderation, which is so strongly upheld by Bah'u'llh, is applied here also. Provision is made for supplementary legislation by the Universal House of Justice -- legislation which it can itself abrogate and amend as conditions change. There is also a clear pattern already established in the Sacred Scriptures, in the
Article: -When Islam Breaks Down-
Here is a link to a thought provoking article in light of recent discussions on the list. I would be interested in any comments, particularly with regard to prevalence of arranged marriages in current Muslim society. Sandra -When Islam Breaks Down- By: Theodore Dalrymple - City Journal Spring 2004 http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?
On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 18:28:53 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, I wrote: The difference between the philosophia perennis and my understanding of the Baha'i view is not necessarily seen the result, but in the cause. You replied: I'm not sure I follow? In other words, there are eternal teachings, but the explanations given for it in the Baha'i texts are, to my understanding, different from the common perennialist argument. Gilberto: Ok, maybe I'm just totally wrong but I have the impression that you are saddling them with unnecessary baggage. I mean, I would tend to be rather mellow about the term perennialism be more inclusive in how I use it. Gilberto: But as long as you admit that there *are* eternal teachings of the prophets which don't change, isn't that perennialism right there? Mark: Outwardly. The problem is that proponents of the philosophia perennis generally ground these eternal teachings in a static ontology of being. Gilberto: But is that a necessary connection? I mean, I wouldn't attempt to logically prove the truth of perennialism from axioms. I would just say that it seems like there are many deep and not so deep commonalities across world religions. We are all in the same boat. The validity of religion depends on the human condition, it doesn't change easily based on time or place. Belief in perennialism seems more true to me than insisting that perennialism is false. Gilberto: Earlier, when I've heard you or Susan object to Perennialism it seemed like you were giving the impression that there were no fixed rules. That any of the commandments could change. And there were no eternal laws. Mark: I would never say there are no fixed rules or eternal laws. However, if they are fixed or eternal, it is because God desires them to be that way. They are emanations from God, not manifestations of God. Gilberto: I'm not sure about the distinction you are making here. And I could have sworn that you did seem to have a problem with the idea of fixed rules. Because I think I remember suggesting the scenario of God willing the rules to stay hte same. Gilberto: But the passage from Abdul Baha seems to allow for the possibility that there is a core which doesn't change from prophet to prophet. The Holy of Holies. Mark: I agree there is a core, however expressed, which does not change from Prophet to Prophet. I mean, am I missing something? This is saying that the fundamental basis, the essnece of the laws of the various prophets does not change or alter. It will never be abrogated. Mark: Descriptively, the Baha'i approach is, as I see it, virtually the same as the one used by most perennialists, including the traditionalists. Explanatorily, there are considerable differences. Gilberto: Eh fair enough. Although I've heard from Susan many moons ago that there are some perennialist Bahais. After reading that passage in Some Answered Questions its not really surprising. I mean seems pretty clear from this passage that Perennialism is basically true. The only issue would be some technical detail here or there. I would say outwardly true, not basically true. Why not basically true? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Gilberto wrote: ...Bahais making a point of saying holy war has been blotted out the book especially combined with the idea of progressive revelation, would give the impression that they are somehow specifically claiming to be less violent than islam. Is that a fair statement? I've reached the conclusion that I simply don't understand where you're coming from. I think that the statement that the Bahá'í Faith is less violent than Islam is a fair statement if you consider actual actions as opposed to an abstract consideration of the principles espoused. ...it doesn't make sense to compare a pretty statement about non-violence from the Bahai writings with the recent suicide bombing in Iraq. Why not? You have to look at what the actual teachings of Muhammad and the Quran on warfare are and you compare them to what the Bahai writings say. The actual teachings of Muhammad may be one thing, but the facts of suicide bombings, beheadings etc. are undeniable. It may be true that such actions are a total perversion of the teachings of Muhammad. That is, in fact, my understanding. Nevertheless the fact remains that these actions have become the public face of Islam. I think we could discuss how much of that is a result of Western propaganda. [on the practice of putting rape victims to death, etc...] I don't think this is a religious issue. There is no religious justification for this kind of a practice. The way shame and honor play a role in certain societies is basically due to culture not religion. But if the cultures that practice this kind of thing are overwhelmingly Muslim, is it not fair to assume there's a connection? And do not religion and culture intermingle in a thousand ways? How does one disconnect one from the other? I think if you took North-South developed world- developing world issues into account, it would help you see more clearly which issues have their root in religion and which have origins elsewhere. Perhaps you could help to deepen my understanding in this regard. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?
Hi, Gilberto, At 08:24 PM 12/25/2004, you wrote: Ok, maybe I'm just totally wrong but I have the impression that you are saddling them with unnecessary baggage. I mean, I would tend to be rather mellow about the term perennialism be more inclusive in how I use it. Well, perennialism is only a word. However, it has generally been, especially since it was popularized by Huxley, an appellation for a kind of transreligious Platonism. I am not aware of any contemporary self-defined perennialists who who are not Platonists. But is that a necessary connection? Connections between words and meanings are never necessary. I would just say that it seems like there are many deep and not so deep commonalities across world religions. We are all in the same boat. I agree about the commonalities, at least as they were originally presented by the Prophets, especially if one can distinguish Revelation from paradigmatic context. Belief in perennialism seems more true to me than insisting that perennialism is false. I think one can recognize the eternal aspects of various divine Revelations without falling back on perennialism or Platonism. In my view, perennialism turns God into an automaton and religion into magick. I wrote: I would never say there are no fixed rules or eternal laws. However, if they are fixed or eternal, it is because God desires them to be that way. They are emanations from God, not manifestations of God. You replied: I'm not sure about the distinction you are making here. A manifestation is an appearance. If I hold up a mirror to someone's face, I can say that the mirror manifests that person's face. My individual soul is my reality. I *am* a soul. My body is a manifestation of that soul. The Prophet's divine nature manifests, or reveals, God's Essence. An emanation is an expression. My various websites express, or emanate from, my interests and thoughts. They do not manifest me. An actor's performance expresses, or is an emanation from, her or his thinking processes. The performance is not a manifestation of the actor. Similarly, the teachings of the Prophets emanate from the Will of God. They do not manifest hypothetical Platonic ideal forms in the mind of God. They are relative to God's Will, not reflections, or manifestations, of God's Essence. And I could have sworn that you did seem to have a problem with the idea of fixed rules. Because I think I remember suggesting the scenario of God willing the rules to stay hte same. In principle, I don't have a problem with fixed rules or laws. However, I would say that, if there are any constants, it is only because God has willed them. The differentiation between ideal forms and divine Will (not constants per se) is what distinguishes ontological realism from nominalism. Eh fair enough. Although I've heard from Susan many moons ago that there are some perennialist Bahais. After reading that passage in Some Answered Questions its not really surprising. Most Baha'is I know, even those who never heard of the word, are perennialists. Why not basically true? To me, basically implies ideal forms. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
