date:20050108

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 21:26:44 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Gilberto:
[The doctrine of the finality of prophethood is] not logically 
necessary but various   Islamic texts inform us that
 Muhammad was the final
 prophet. If I accept Muhammad and the Quran and
 even if I throw out every
 other hadith, I still have convincing
 evidence which leads to the conclusion
 that Muhammad was the last
 prophet.

Gilberto:
 In my opinion to believe otherwise
 means you aren't really taking the
texts or the record seriously. 


Rich:
   I can
 take something seriously, but not agree with it. 

Gilberto:
In general sure. In this case it's different.

Rich:
Ibn Khaldun comes to mind.
 A brilliant man, the Muqaddimah was sheer genius. He was in the employ of
 the Ummayyads. To curry favor with them he wrote a piece denouncing tales of
 the Mahdi as mere folk stories and not Islamic. At the time the Ummayyad
 were going neck and neck with the Abbasids who were really playing the
 eschatology card. It was in the Umayyad's interest to down play this and Ibn
 Khaldun was happy to help his patrons out. While I respect Ibn Khaldun, I
 don't agree with this statement. 

Gilberto:
But as far as I know the Bahai faith doesn't teach that Ibn Khaldun
was  a Manifestation of God or an Infallible interpreter.


 That being said, Judah Ha Levi wrote a book called the kazari in which
 he argues that Christianity and Islam are pale comparasons to Judaism and
 that Moses was the last prophet should I take his text seriously. He's
 considered one of Judaism's best and brightest. How about Aquinas, no
 slouch, pretty convincing evidence for the finality of Christ's revelation
 and the continuing of guidence through church tradition. He said no freedom
 for error. Do I condemn Islam because of him. The Summa was brilliant, he
 was a genius. 
 My point is that every religion, so far has had writers showing
 convincing proofs that prophethood and revelation ended with thier
 revelation and have used scripture to proove it. If you look at that whole
 record the proof for finality tends to dwindle.

That's not very convincing to me because Judaism and Christianity have
plenty of explicit statements discussing revelation and prophets
coming after their founders appeared. Islam is different.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 21:08:11 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:
 I don't think that among sunnis there is a consensus that ANYONE after
the
 prophet was infallible. Not even Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman. So I
think that
 asking about infallibility is the wrong question because
that doesn't allow
 any difference between Abu Bakr and Ali (from the
sunni perspective)

Rich:
This  is my point about a fundamental diference between Shi'a and Sunni.

Gilberto:
Shia and Sunni disagree about certain issues but I'm not persuaded
that the issues are fundemnantal or essential. If Bahais can try to
present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zorastrianism,
etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent differences between them,
then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and Shias is a walk in
the park.

  The Shi'a
 do consider Ali infallable. The Sunni don't. 

There is not a consensus that he was infallible. It is generally
thought that he was correct in his disagreement with Muawiya. And its
not like there is a sunni list floating around of Imam Ali's top 10
mistakes. AS I said before, he could be considered a kind of saint
and might even be a Perfect Man.


 In SUNNI hadith collections, Muhammad says: I am the city of
knowledge
 and
 
 Ali is the gate.
 Rich:
 
  Wonderful, this Hadith IMHO points to Ali being
Muhammad's true
 successor.

 
I don't know why there would need to be one kind of successor.
 I think
it is totally reasonable to say that after the prophet passed, it
 was
totally appropriate for Abu Bakr to be in charge of the
 secular
government but that Ali had a particular spiritual station. I
 think
even the Zaydi Muslims (Shia) say something like this.  

  Of course
 you do and I respect that, but the Shi'a and I disagree. The twelvers do not
 think Abu Bakr had a right to take control, at least not from what I've read

 Gilberto:
Actually, the Taliban were quite sympathetic to some forms of
 Sufism.
According to one article Mulla Omar was actually a Naqshbanidi.   

Rich:
 This goes against what I've read, particularly Ahmad Rashid. As was
 mentioned in a post fron Susan earlier, though, I may be talking at cross
 purposes here. My understanding is that the Deobandi are oppossed to the
 Chistiyya movements and to anything that smacks of Wahad ul-Wajud.

This was mentioned in the article. I think the resolution is that the
Taliban were not opposed to Sufism per se. In fact, they had Sufis
among their highest ranks. What they were opposed to were specific
doctrines and specific practices.


 
http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/02/01022002104035.asp

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, Gilberto,

At 02:43 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
If Bahais can try to present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, 
Zorastrianism, etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent differences 
between them, then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and Shias is a 
walk in the park. 

Some Baha'is have attempted to do so. However, I have been less than impressed 
with those I have seen. Personally, I think it is better to simply accept the 
various Revelations (from a Baha'i standpoint), their present-day branches, and 
their scriptures as they are found. Actual similarities can simply be noted. 

IMO, one of the more pragmatic implications of the Baha'i Faith as a 
non-syncretistic religion is that Baha'is should not *impose* similarities on 
the various faith systems when none are apparent. The ideology or paradigm of 
each religious group should be acknowledged on its own merits, and no prior 
assumption should be made as to its degrees of consistency.

As I see it, the eternal teachings of the Prophets center on the Covenant, the 
Will of God, and on the cultivation of those virtues which God might determine 
are required to fulfill it.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

John,

At 09:45 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
Isn't it more universal to do the one (Baha'i) than the other (Islam) ?  
Islam does not accept all religions as they are as valid expressions from 
God.  The Baha'i, IMO, does.  We accept the validity of the people of the 
Planet, it is only that their time has past.  Maybe this is the reason that 
the Baha'i Faith is more widespread than Islam (see Encyclopedia 
Britannica).

I don't think that is correct. I have known Muslims who believe that many of 
the world's religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism, were originally founded 
by Prophets. Some would even admit the possibility of Taoism, Shinto, and other 
faith systems as having a Prophetic origin. The difference is that Muslims, 
with the principal exception of the Qadiani Ahmadis, do not believe that any 
Prophets will come after Muhammad.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Mark, At any rate, thanks for the correct. In fact, I don't disagree with what you are saying. My statement did make some unjustified leaps and assumptions. Let me restate what I really mean.

Remember, we are not talking about this or thatschool in Islam. Aren't we talking about Gilberto's version / view of Islam, as he presents it ?? !! Therefore, if we look at what Gilberto's described, = [ that the teaching of Christianity that differ from Islamic teaching are man's corruption of the Bible ] , then I would say that this is striking down Christianity as man-made. The Baha'i Faith asserts that Christianity is from God.

"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John,At 09:45 AM 1/8/2005, you wrote:Isn't it more universal to do the one (Baha'i) than the other (Islam) ? Islam does not accept all religions as they are as valid expressions from God. The Baha'i, IMO, does. We accept the validity of the people of the Planet, it is only that their time has past. Maybe this is the reason that the Baha'i Faith is more widespread than Islam (see Encyclopedia Britannica).I don't think that is correct. I have known Muslims who believe that many of the world's religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism, were originally founded by Prophets. Some would even admit the possibility of Taoism, Shinto, and other faith systems as having a Prophetic origin. The difference is that Muslims, with the principal exception of the Qadiani Ahmadis, do not believe that any Prophets will come after Muhammad.With regards,!
Mark A.
Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:35:12 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Mark, At any rate, thanks for the correct.  In fact, I don't disagree with
 what you are saying.  My statement did make some unjustified leaps and
 assumptions.  Let me restate what I really mean.
  
 Remember, we are not talking about this or that school  in Islam.  Aren't we
 talking about Gilberto's version / view of  Islam, as he presents it ?? !! 
 Therefore, if we look at what Gilberto's described, = [ that the teaching of
 Christianity that differ from Islamic teaching are man's corruption of the
 Bible ] , then I would say that this is striking down Christianity as
 man-made.  The Baha'i Faith asserts that Christianity is from God.

The Quran clearly states that Jesus was the Christ, a true prophet,
who performed miracles, was given a revelation called the Gospel, and
left behind a community of followers. In a very real sense,
Christianity comes from God. That doesn't mean that the Christians
accurately preserved and and transmitted their beliefs faithfully.

(The Quran says)
[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant,
but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore
We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection;
and Allah will inform them of what they did.

That doesn't mean I believe everything in the Bible. That doesn't mean
I believe everything which is taught by Christians as their theology.

I don't think that Bahais believe everything in the Bible (for
example, which son did Abraham nearly sacrifice?) They certainly don't
believe everything which is taught by Christians as their theology?
(The physical resurrection from the dead, for example)

I think the difference between what Bahais seem to be saying about
Christianity and what I'm saying is largely a matter of degree,
emphasis and candor. (At least that's my perspective, you might
disagree)

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Dear Khazeh,

My original question:

 So my question to you is whether you are willing to say:
 all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to
 Muhammad]?
 Peace
 Gilberto
 
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html
 
 Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the Holy
 Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES.

Gilberto:
Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned
to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to
those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the
meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or
missing by doing so.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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RE: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

2005-01-08 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir


Dear Khazeh,

My original question:

 So my question to you is whether you are willing to say:
 all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to
Muhammad]?
 Peace
 Gilberto 
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html
 
 Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the
Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES.

Gilberto:
Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Baha'u'llah was already mentioned to
Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those
great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the
Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.

Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto you wrote
** I just think it makes a lot more sense for me to look to those great
Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran
and the Sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.
**

Remember I cannot indicate or prescribe any course of action for you.
I am your servant in the Cause of God. I am a mere transient dust in this
ephemeral world. If it makes sense please do so.
But I would be misleading you to say just rest with part of part of a
single verse of this Mighty and All-embracing Divine Revelation. Dearest
Gilbert all the other verses pertinent to this should be read perused,
meditated upon.

*** O My servants!  The one true God is My witness!  This most great, this
fathomless and surging Ocean is near, astonishingly near, unto you.  BEHOLD
IT IS CLOSER TO YOU THAN YOUR LIFE-VEIN!  SWIFT AS THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE
YE CAN, IF YE BUT WISH IT, reach and partake of this imperishable favour,
this God-given grace, this incorruptible gift, this most potent and
unspeakably glorious bounty. 
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Page: 326)***
O wayfarer in the path of God!  Take thou thy portion of the ocean of His
grace, and deprive not thyself of the things that lie hidden in its depths.
Be thou of them that have partaken of its treasures.  A dewdrop out of this
ocean would, if shed upon all that are in the heavens and on the earth,
suffice to enrich them with the bounty of God, the Almighty, the
All-Knowing, the All-Wise.  With the hands of renunciation draw forth from
its life-giving waters, and sprinkle therewith all created things, that they
may be cleansed from all man-made limitations and may approach the mighty
seat of God, this hallowed and resplendent Spot. 
(Baha'u'llah:  Gleanings, Pages: 279-280)

My people are hydroponic





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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Hi, Gilberto,

At 12:28 PM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
Do you find them less convincing than Bahai attempts to reconcile the Bible 
and Quran? 

No, that is what I was saying. I think that the various texts incorporated the 
Bible can be studied; and the Qur'an can be studied. If there are similarities 
between the various biblical texts or between certain biblical texts and the 
Qur'an, they can be pointed out, but I would not consider this type of 
reconciliation to be a scholarly activity. 

As I wrote on another list two days ago.

I take a pragmatic approach to this subject. IMO, the only value of Baha'i 
eisegeses is apologetic and propagative (not academic).

By eisegesis, I was, in this case, referring to the interpretation of 
previous scriptures using statements, or principles, contained in the Baha'i 
primary sources. However, I would have the same view about creating artificial 
syncretisms through doctrinal reconciliation.

(I have in mind especially the teachings about the sonship, divinity and 
crucifixion of Jesus). I mean, the difference between Jesus being God or not 
God seems to me orders of magnitude more huge than the difference between Ali 
being the first imam, or him being possibly the greatest awliya, the qutb of 
his age, a perfect man.

I would simply explain my understandings of the Baha'i views on those subjects. 
I see no reason why a Baha'i should not try to interpret other scriptures based 
on an application of certain Baha'i views. However, the only value I can see in 
this exercise would be apologetic and propagative (pedagogical), not academic. 
Academically, each text incorporated into a scripture (including the Baha'i 
Sacred Texts) should be examined on its own.

I think I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure how in practice 
would work out. Again going back to the nature of Jesus, personally I think 
that there is a radical difference between what the Quran says about Jesus 
and what the Bible says about Jesus.

As a Baha'i, I accept the authority of Baha'u'llah on this matter. From that 
standpoint, I would say that the qur'anic reference to Christ not dying on the 
cross applies to His Soul and Spirit, not to His body. In other respects, I 
would want to look at the statements in the Qur'an and in the various texts of 
the Bible and would point out any similarities and differences I observe, but I 
would not be interested in reconciling them .

But then in the actual Bahai writings statements are made which seem to say 
these differences can be reconciled. That feels like an imposition to me 
because I don't think it is reflected in the texts. Do you have a different 
way of thinking about that issue?

Yes, I think that the differences, from an apologetic standpoint, are explained 
in the Baha'i texts. That doesn't tell me that the actual differences between 
statements in the Qur'an and the Bible can independently be reconciled using 
any kind of scholarly perspective.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Dear Khazeh, 

You cut and pasted the following assertion:

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:14:52 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nowhere in the Gospels do we find any reference to the
 unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a 
 whole. When Jesus spoke
 to those around Him, He addressed them primarily as individuals rather than
 as component parts of one universal, indivisible entity. The whole surface
 of the earth was as yet unexplored, and the organization of all its peoples
 and nations as one unit could, consequently, not be envisaged, how much less
 proclaimed or established.

Gilberto:
So one way to look at religious history is to strive and make
distinctions among the various religions. You can choose to emphasize
how religions are different from one another. You can say the second
one is better than the first one. The third one is better than the
second one.

Another way to look at religions is to point to the similarities. You
say that world unity wasn't envisioned in the Gospel but even in
Judaism there is a concept of Tikkun Olam or repairing the world
which I've been told is linguistically related to the original
expression for the Bahai term ever advancing civilzation. The vision
was already there in the past. They didn't need someone new to tell
them about it. They just needed to pay attention to what they had.

Even centuries before Jesus in the book of Isaiah the Jews envisioned
how in the future

Isaiah 2:
[4] He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:16:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/8/2005 1:13:34 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Gilberto:
 Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned
 to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to
 those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the
 meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or
 missing by doing so.


Scott:
 Baha`u'llah says the knowledge of all the Manifestations was perfect. The
 Revelation to mankind was complete in each one's Self. However, each
 manifestation revealed only what God directed Him to reveal. Therefore
 Muhammed's knowledge was complete, and God's Message was complete in
 Himself. However, what He revealed was limited as God directed.

But the Quran says of itself:

We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered
before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

Here's a story I like which I had discussed a bit on
soc.religion.bahai. I think it would be interesting to mention it
here:

Hillel and Shammai were two great Jewish scholars of the past.

It is said that, in the great days of Hillel and Shammai (before the
time of Jesus) a man came to see Shammai and said, Teach me the torah
while standing on one leg. Shammai promptly picked up a brick and hit
the man
on the side of the head and told him That is impossible, go and learn.
The man then approached Hillel and asked the same of him, he promptly
stood on one leg and said .Treat your neighbour as you would treat
yourself (or in some versions, What is hateful to you, do not do to
others'), that is the torah all the rest is just commentary.

I really like Hillel's answer. I would say that in a real way there is
a huge amount of content already contained in even just La ilaha illa
Allah (No god but God) and the rest is commentary so even just
sticking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking.
Alot more unpacking with details and examples can be seen if you
include the volumes and volumes of hadith. I don't think anything is
left out. Really.

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

Gilberto,

At 02:31 PM 1/8/2005, you wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm always careful to say it this way but I would say 
typical Muslims. Historically some past scholars (If I remember correctly 
Ibn Taymiyya might even be in this camp) took the position that corruption 
was a matter of wrong interpretations rather than changes in the text.

Hasn't the old Islamic teaching of perversion of doctrine all but been replaced 
by perversion of the texts?

And is it clear that the Bahai view precludes textual changes?

No, my understanding is that the official Baha'i view would preclude 
*intentional* perversion of the texts.

I thought that the Bahai writings quote many specific passages of the Bible 
in a way which suggests they are authentic but I also thought that the 
writings specifically say the Bible isn't as authentic as the Quran.

Right. Baha'u'llah's objection was to perversion of the texts, not to 
perversion of doctrine.

And couldn't it also be that the Bahai writings use the Bible because it is 
what Christians believe in but not necessarily *actually* affirming their 
inspiration or authenticity or proper canonicity?

Inspiration is not the same as inerrancy. (I do not personally believe that any 
scripture can be inerrant.)  However, Shoghi Effendi appears to have believed 
in degrees of authenticity. The Qur'an is more authentic (from a Baha'i, not 
necessarily an academic, viewpoint) than the Bible, just as the actual 
writings of Shoghi Effendi are more authentic than letters written on his 
behalf.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:49:53 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 Gilberto:
 Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentioned
 to Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to
 those great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the
 meaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or
 missing by doing so.


 John: 
 But by only looking at the Qur'an, its interpreters, its scholars, its
 saints, etc., you will **not** know which of the verses/teachings to
 consider with the **appropriate** level of degree, emphasis and candor., to 
 quote yourself.

John:
 In other words, Allah has directly intervened through the revelation of
 Baha'u'llah to clarify those questions, those areas of uncertainty.

Gilberto:
IF you believe that God did that through Bahaullah and that he had
that role, sure, that would end the debate. But that's a big if.

Gilberto:
But as a Muslim I can also look let myself be guided by the
interpretations of Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Al-Ghazzali, Rumi, Ibn
al-Arabi, Shah Waliullah, Maturidi, etc. and one advantage is that it
is much more clear and obvious that they are part of a common shared
Islamic tradition. It's not the case that all of their followers are
uniformly condemned as being outside the pale of Islam.

 John:
 Let me setup an analogy to explain this another way.  
 
 (Setup 1) Lets say the Qur'an is the English alphabet A-Z.  
 

OK.

 (Setup 2) Lets also say that since there are different Muslim
 interpretations, from different Muslim scholars, saints, etc., that there
 are different ways to Understand the Holy Qur'an.

Gilberto:
I suspect you might have an exagerated sense of  the extent to which
this is problematic. There is a broad consensus about important
matters. And the areas where scholars disagree generally aren't going
to be worth fighting over.

For example, just among sunnis (Ahl al sunnah wal jamaat) there are
four different interpretations of the laws, four different rites
(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi, Hanbali) named after the founders. There may
have been aberant periods of history where these differences were more
contentious, but the norm is that followers of one school respect the
rulings of the followers of the other school as valid. They can pray
together, they can pray behind one another, they accept one another as
sunni Muslims. Some of the differences are due to slight differences
in the interpretive principles they apply to the Quran but those
differences are not worth fighting over.

This attitude even extended to theology. For sunnis there are two main
schools. Ashari and Maturidi. Different ways of understanding God,
morality, free-will, etc. Both both are considered valid.

When the scholars disagreed they didn't say I'm the only Muslim and
you are an unbeliever. There was politeness and adab. They said I
believe I'm right with the possibility of being wrong. I believe you
are wrong with the possibility of being right.

John:
  So, the degree and
 emphasis that the various Qur'anic verses need to be understood are not
 all that clear. -  To fit the analogy, lets symbolize this as the Qur'an
 being little wooden blocks of the English alphabet A-Z all thrown into a
 box.  No one knows the order they are supposed to be in.  

One may ask, is Z,
 B, Q, F the correct order?   

Then the situation in Islam might be that all the scholars actually
agree about the order of the letters from
A to W, and some people think it should go X, Y, Z. But then another
group thinks it should go Z, X, Y. But the two groups agree that they
are not going to fight about it because they can still read one
another's books, and they still agree about how all the words are
spelled, and they only have minimal trouble using one another's
dictionaries.

But then the Bahai faith comes along and starts saying that the
alphabet is supposed to go A, Z, X, Q, R, B, V, T, and then throws in
some cyrillic characters in, etc.. The earlier groups had minor
disagreements among themselves, but they all can agree that this new
group is actually wrong.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Gilberto: I would say that in a real way there isa huge amount of content already contained in even just "La ilaha illaAllah" (No god but God) "and the rest is commentary" so even juststicking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking.Alot more unpacking with details and examples can be seen if youinclude the volumes and volumes of hadith. I don't think anything isleft out. Really.
John: To me,your statement is clear testimonyto the Perfection of the Holy Qur'an, the Infinite Power ofthe Wordsfrom God. Iwish that Icouldunveil even one ofthe infinite meanings behind the Qur'anic verses "la ilaha illa Allah" or "In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful", or the seemingly simple letters "Alif Lam Mim".
John: And Iam overtaken with feelings of unworthiness for having been allowed to recognize the Manifestation of His Self and the Fountainhead of His Laws.

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:24:15 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Dear Khazeh,
 
 My original question:
 
  So my question to you is whether you are willing to say:
  all that is vouchsafed [to Baháu'lláh] was indeed Mentioned before [to
 Muhammad]?
  Peace
  Gilberto
  http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43251.html

  Dear Gilberto of course in the spirit of the passage you quote from the
 Holy Qur'an [41:43] the simple answer that you ask me to make is YES, YES.
 
 Gilberto:
 Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Baha'u'llah was already mentioned to
 Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look to those
 great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the
 Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.
 

Khazeh: 
 Dear Gilberto you wrote
 ** I just think it makes a lot more sense for me to look to those great
 Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack the meaning of the Quran
 and the Sunnah. And nothing would be lost or missing by doing so.

Khazeh:
 Remember I cannot indicate or prescribe any course of action for you.
 I am your servant in the Cause of God. I am a mere transient dust in this
 ephemeral world. If it makes sense please do so.

OK.

 But I would be misleading you to say just rest with part of part of a
 single verse of this Mighty and All-embracing Divine Revelation.


Gilberto:
But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ALL
that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to
Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.

And in the Quran it says:

We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered
before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

Even if you want to say that it isn't enough to consult the Quran and
you want to read more writings for guidance, there are plenty of
materials by Muslim awliya which give out details, and explanations,
and go into the topics of the Quran with more and more depth.

Besides, is more revelation really the problem here? Maybe it's just
me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem isn't
ignorance as much as forgetfulness. As human beings, to a large degree
I think we know what we ought to be doing. We know we shouldn't steal
and murder. We know we shouldn't exploit and take advantage of other
people. We know we should try to get along better with our fellow man.
We know we should be more generous and fight less. We know we
shouldn't lie. What we need is to figure out how to do the things we
already know we are supposed to be doing. And I'm not persuaded that
we need a new revelation in order to accomplish that.

Peace

Gilberto



My people are hydroponic

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

2005-01-08 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/8/2005 3:41:20 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed. ALLthat is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before toMuhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.And in the Quran it says:We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gatheredbefore their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)
It is like Christ saying: "I have many things to tell you now, but you cannot bear them."

Muhammed left NOTHING out that He was bidden to write down by God.

Was that ALL Muhammed was aware of? I do not think so.

Regards,

Scott
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Authority and translation differences

2005-01-08 Thread Richard H. Gravelly

Sale's translation is the most scholarly we have, but Rodwell's version is 
more literary, and hence easier for reading.  (From a letter written on 
behalf of Shoghi Effendi  (23 November 1934).

In comparing what. to me. is a very important set of verses, I find the 
differences extraordinary in terms of what to me is their apparent prophetic 
message.  Sale's appears explicitly admonitional and prophetic.

Sale:  Sura 7: 33-36 Say, verily my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions, both 
that which is discovered thereof, and that which is concealed, and also 
iniquity, and unjust violence; and hath forbidden you to associate with God 
that concerning which he hath sent down no authority, or to speak of God 
that which ye know not.  Unto every nation there is a prefixed term; 
therefore when their term is expired, they shall not have respite for an 
hour, neither shall they be anticipated.  O Children of Adam, verily 
apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto 
you:  whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear 
on them, neither shall they be grieved.  But they who shall accuse our signs 
of falsehood, and shall proudly reject them they shall be companions of hell 
fire; they shall remain forever.

Rodwell appears to do the same.
Rodwell:
33 Say: Truly my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions whether open or
secret, and iniquity, and unjust violence, and to associate with God that 
for
which He hath sent down no warranty, and to speak of God that ye know not.

34 Every nation hath its set time. And when their time is come, they shall
not retard it an hour; and they shall not advance it.
35 O children of Adam! there shall come Apostles from among yourselves,
rehearsing my signs to you; and whoso shall fear God and do good works, no 
fear
shall be upon them, neither shall they be put to grief.

36 But they who charge our signs with falsehood, and turn away from them in
their pride, shall be inmates of the fire: for ever shall they abide 
therein.
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura   7 - Al Araf)

On the other hand Yusuf Ali appears to obliterate or obfuscate the 
apparently prophetic intent of verse 35.

Yusuf Ali:
33. Say: The things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, 
whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; 
assigning of partners to Allah, for which he hath given no authority; and 
saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

34. To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an 
hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in 
anticipation).

35. O ye children of Adam! whenever there come to you Messengers from 
amongst you, rehearsing my signs unto you, those who are righteous and mend 
(their lives), on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

36. But those who reject our signs and treat them with arrogance, they are 
companions of the fire, to dwell therein (for ever). (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali 
tr), Surah 7)






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Re: Authority and translation differences

2005-01-08 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/8/2005 4:26:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sale's 
  translation is the most scholarly we have, but Rodwell's version is more 
  literary, and hence easier for reading. (From a letter written on 
  behalf of Shoghi Effendi (23 November 
1934).


Dear Richard, 

Look at the date of that statement. In 1934 those were about the only 
translations available. We've had much better ones since then. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

2005-01-08 Thread Popeyesays

In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:59:21 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But the Quran says of itself:We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gatheredbefore their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)
Muhammed did not leave anything out of the Book that He was told to reveal.

042.052 PICKTHAL: And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,
057.016 YUSUFALI: Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious transgressors.
069.040
PICKTHAL: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger.
069.041 PICKTHAL: It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! 069.042 PICKTHAL: Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! 069.043 PICKTHAL: It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 069.044 PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, 069.045 PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand 069.046PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery, 069.047 PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him. 069.048 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil). 069.049PICKTHAL: And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it). 069.050 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers. 069.051 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is absolute truth. 069.052 PICKTHAL: So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord.
Muhammed revealed only what God bade Him reveal, whatever else He might have known.
Baha`u'llah makes it clear that no Messenger speaks other than that which He is instructed to say.

This is true of EACH revelation. One hears Baha`u'llah make the claim to be a Messenger and accepts it or denies it. Some choose one way and some the other. That is between each individual and God. I believe God's Mercy is as boundless as His Justice.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:50 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:59:21 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 But the Quran says of itself:
 
 We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered
 before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)


 Muhammed did not leave anything out of the Book that He 
 was told to reveal.

I don't think that the verses you point to encourage or require the
kind of reading you are talking about. It doesn't seem to make sense
to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important
spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it.

Peace

Gilberto




  
 042.052 
 
 PICKTHAL: And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our
 command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We
 have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo!
 thou verily dost guide unto a right path, 
 057.016 
 YUSUFALI: Has not the Time arrived for the Believers that their hearts in
 all humility should engage in the remembrance of Allah and of the Truth
 which has been revealed (to them), and that they should not become like
 those to whom was given Revelation aforetime, but long ages passed over them
 and their hearts grew hard? For many among them are rebellious
 transgressors. 
 069.040
 
 PICKTHAL: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger. 
 
 
 069.041 
 PICKTHAL: It is not poet's speech - little is it that ye believe! 
 069.042 
 PICKTHAL: Nor diviner's speech - little is it that ye remember! 
 069.043 
 PICKTHAL: It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 
 069.044 
 PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us, 
 069.045 
 PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand 
 069.046 
 PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery, 
 069.047 
 PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him. 
 069.048 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil). 
 069.049 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it). 
 069.050 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers. 
 069.051 
 PICKTHAL: And lo! it is absolute truth. 
 069.052 
 PICKTHAL: So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord. 
 
 
 Muhammed revealed only what God bade Him reveal, whatever else He might have
 known.
 
 Baha`u'llah makes it clear that no Messenger speaks other than that which He
 is instructed to say.
 
  
 
 This is true of EACH revelation. One hears Baha`u'llah make the claim to be
 a Messenger and accepts it or denies it. Some choose one way and some the
 other. That is between each individual and God. I believe God's Mercy is as
 boundless as His Justice.
 
  
 
 Regards,
 
  
 
 Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38]

2005-01-08 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

 In message
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html
Dear Gilberto you make several points. This servant, again in the spirit of
amity and affectionate dialogue will remember! And number them and make some
replies. Please God you will look at them with a kindly gaze.
Gilberto:
Point 1] But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed.
...

[khazeh replying lovingly]: when I said part of it the it referred to
the Bahaullah Passage that you appear to like. And by part I mean your
appreciation of the first part of the three verse passage quoted at the end
of this letter again [fully!]
Gilberto Simpson
Point 2] 
ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to
Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.

[khazeh humbly]. There is naught missing but the rest of the verse from the
Iqtidaaraat is not looked at by your good self so far.

Gilberto Simpson
Point 3]
And in the Quran it says:

We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before
their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)

[khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes certainly dear brother.
But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews said that the Holy
Quran affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the
Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE
TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with
the Torah because the Quran affirms it was all there before.
006.154 
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those
who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a
mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. 
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, COMPLETE for him who
would do good, AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS, A GUIDANCE AND A MERCY, that
they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. 
SHAKIR: Again, WE GAVE THE BOOK TO MUSA TO COMPLETE (OUR BLESSINGS) ON HIM
WHO WOULD DO GOOD (TO OTHERS), and making plain all things and a guidance
and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

154. Thumma atayna Moosa alkitaba tamaman AAala allathee ahsana watafseelan
likulli shay-in wahudan warahmatan
So the Text of the Quran says the Book of Moses was TAMAAM  complete
[nothing left out]. It repeats again in the same verse : The Book of Moses
was TAFSEELAN LIKULLI SHAIN = AN EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS
 So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to
say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete. and so on
Remember dearest I am not arguing. I am just offering what I think are true
insights 

Gilberto Simpson
Point 4]
Maybe it's just me, but from my perspective, humanity's biggest problem
isn't ignorance as much as forgetfulness. As human beings, to a large degree
I think we know what we ought to be doing. We know we shouldn't steal and
murder. We know we shouldn't exploit and take advantage of other people. We
know we should try to get along better with our fellow man. We know we
should be more generous and fight less. We know we
shouldn't lie. What we need is to figure out how to do the things we
already know we are supposed to be doing. And I'm not persuaded that
we need a new revelation in order to accomplish that.

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html

[khazeh] in reply to Point 4.
The latest Revelation confirms the ethics of the past the reminding that the
Comforter was to accomplish. I am a Bahai so with great affection, from my
perspective [as you kindly mentioned your perspective above] this applies:
Namely:
Does not the very operation of the world-unifying forces that are at
work in this age necessitate that He Who is the Bearer of the Message of God
[Bahaullah]  in this day should not only REAFFIRM that self-same exalted
standard of individual conduct inculcated by the Prophets gone before Him,
but embody in His appeal, to all governments and peoples, THE ESSENTIALS OF
THAT SOCIAL CODE, THAT DIVINE ECONOMY, which must guide humanity's concerted
efforts in establishing that all-embracing federation which is to signalize
the advent of the Kingdom of God on this earth? 
(The Writings)

Again in
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html 

you say Gilberto 
Point 5]
*there are plenty of materials by Muslim awliya which give out details, and
explanations, and go into the topics of the Quran with more and more
depth.**

[khazeh] replies lovingly:
You seem to have a high regard for the Muslim Awliya [Saints/Holy
Ones/Plural of Wali]. This is wonderful. But let me share with you something
from one of these Awliyaas. Some would say the Noblest Highest Khaatam al
Awliyaa [the Seal of all the Awliya] namely Ibn Arabi. I have here on the
shelf all his books have read them since 30 years. 
In his biggest book Futuuh.aat in the Chapter 366 He says:
**after the disciples of the Mahdi are slain [martyred] 
Waah.idun minhum

Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] with references

2005-01-08 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 1/8/2005 6:01:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:Islamically the Quran wasn't written by Muhammad, it comes from God.
Who said different. Muhammed is the Revealor and I refer to that as authorship. Actually, Gabriel revealed the Qur'an to Muhammed as is mentioned in the Qur'an.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

Gilberto: It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it.
John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75.
"1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the self-reproaching person (a believer). 3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones? 4. Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers. 5. Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins. 6. He asks: "When will be this Day of Resurrection?" 7. So, when the sight shall be dazed, 8. And the moon will be eclipsed, 9. And the sun and moon will be joined together (by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their light, etc.) 10. On that Day man will say: "Where (is the refuge) to flee?" 11. No! There is no refuge! 12. Unto your Lord (Alone) will be the place of rest that Day. 13. On that Day man will be informed of what he sent forward (of his evil or good deeds), and what he lef!
t behind
(of his good or evil traditions)."

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:43:47 -0800 (PST), John Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 Gilberto:  It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was
 omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The
 Quran doesn't suggest it.
 
 
 John:  It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75.
 

Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and how
it points to what we are talking about?

PEace

GIlberto




 1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the
 self-reproaching person (a believer). 3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that
 We shall not assemble his bones? 4. Yes, We are Able to put together in
 perfect order the tips of his fingers. 5. Nay! (Man denies Resurrection and
 Reckoning. So) he desires to continue committing sins. 6. He asks: When
 will be this Day of Resurrection? 7. So, when the sight shall be dazed, 8.
 And the moon will be eclipsed, 9. And the sun and moon will be joined
 together (by going one into the other or folded up or deprived of their
 light, etc.) 10. On that Day man will say: Where (is the refuge) to flee?
 11. No! There is no refuge! 12. Unto your Lord (Alone) will be the place of
 rest that Day. 13. On that Day man will be informed of what he sent forward
 (of his evil or good deeds), and what he lef! t behind (of his good or evil
 traditions). 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]



 John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75. Gilberto: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about?
John: What I meant wasthat there are things that will take placeduringQiyamah thatare beyond the Qur'an.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations] recalling 6:154 as well as 6:38]

Dear Khazeh, 

I'll focus on the more essential aspects to hopefully not get caught
up in details and stick to the more central issues.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:06:34 -, Khazeh Fananapazir
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In message
 http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m43290.html
 Dear Gilberto you make several points. This servant, 
 again in the spirit of amity and affectionate dialogue 
 will remember! And number them and make some
 replies. Please God you will look at them with a kindly 
 gaze.



 Gilberto:
 Point 1] But Muslims aren't just resting with a part. Remember, we agreed.
 
 [khazeh replying lovingly]: when I said part of it 
 the it referred to
 the Baha'u'llah Passage that you appear to like. And by 
 part I mean your
 appreciation of the first part of the three verse passage  quoted at the end 
  of this letter again [fully!]

Gilberto:
First things first. If you think the passage forms a unit then it is
good to understand each of its parts.

 Point 2]
 ALL that is vouchsafed to Baháu'lláh was indeed Mentioned before to
 Muhammad. ALL of it. There is nothing missing.

 [khazeh humbly]. There is naught missing but the rest of the verse from the
 Iqtidaaraat is not looked at by your good self so far.

Gilberto:
I've read the whole passage which you shared. I commented on part of
it because it seemed the most relevant.


 Point 3]
 And in the Quran it says:
 
 We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will  be gathered 
 before their Lord [for judgement]. (6:38)
 
 [khazeh kindly]. We did not leave anything out. Yes 
 certainly dear brother.
 But using the same logic, the exact syllogism, the Jews 
 said that the Holy
 Qur'an affirms most strongly that their Book [the Old Testament/the  
 Tenakh/the Torah] had EVERYTHING COMPLETELY _ NOTHING WAS LEFT OUT OF THE
 TORAH. Therefore a fortiori [as they say in logic] people should stay with 
 the Torah because the Qur'an affirms it was all there before.

Gilberto:
I follow your logic and I actually would agree with your conclusion up
to a certain point, but there is a difference.
I actually believe that the original Torah should be thought of as the
word of God just as much as the Quran. I would assume that in it one
could find great depth and wisdom that could guide one to living a
life pleasing to God. I actually believe that there is a lot which is
beautiful and spiritual in Judaism which Christians don't appreciate.
I actually wouldn't try to demean the Torah by saying that the Torah
isn't suitable for cities or in a world with modern technology.

One issue which should be raised however, is that the Torah was a
revelation given to Moses. But if you actually study the history of
the text and modern Biblical scholarship, virtually no Biblical
scholar actually believes that the current first five books of the
Bible (the Penteteuch) was entirely written by Moses (as). The most
widely accepted understanding is something called the documentary
hypothesis. Where scholars have traced the contributions of 4
different authors and styles in the book. And there are indications
that these 4 source materials weren't combined until several centuries
after Moses.

So I'm sure that at least part of the original Torah of Moses is
contained in the Penteteuch but I don't think that the PEnteteuch is
the same as the Torah.

Moreover, as I mentioned before, I really liked the story of Hillel.
If a Jewish person wanted to say that all of Judaism could be summed
up with that which would be hateful to you, do not do to others and
they wanted to say that was a complete religion I actually don't think
I would want to argue with them (Especially if they were serious and
thorough about how they did it). (While discussing this issue in
soc.religion.islam earlier I was pleasantly surprised to learn that
there actually was an attempt to make a religion of Hillelism.)


 006.154
 YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those
 who would do right, AND EXPLAINING ALL THINGS IN DETAIL,- and a guide and a
 mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

Yes, I would actually accept that and have no problem with that verse.
I think the basic idea of perennialism actually fits in rather well
with the Quran. The same essential truths which were given to
Muhammad, were also given to Jesus, were also given to Moses, was also
given to all the prophets. For me personally, the main thing Islam has
going for it is that the teachings were clearly and faithfully
transmitted. I wouldn't say the same thing about Christianity and
Judaism. Although in their original forms they would have been
essentially the same teachings as Islam.



 So this servant would say by this logic of quoting 6:38 they would go on to
 say look: we have priority and Our Book is complete.


Firstly, I don't think time is a big factor. Just because they are
first doesn't give them any automatic credit. Just as the recentness
of the Bahai faith gives them any

Re: Responding with affection was [RE: Past Revelations]



G: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about?
J: 
(1) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, the Great Resurrection, God will say things and answer questions that are not in the Qur'an:
[2:210] : Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision). 
(2) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, there will be proclamations (mighty Blast from the Caller) that are not in the Qur'an:
[50:41-2]: And listen for the Day when the Caller will call out from a place quiet near,- The Day when they will hear a (mighty) Blast in (very) truth: that will be the Day of Resurrection. 
(3) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, everyone will die and be resurrectionon an earth that will shine in a new way. 
[39:68-69]: "And there shall be a blast on the Trumpet, and all who are in the Heaven and all who are on the earth shall expire, save those whom God shall vouchsafe to live. Then shall there be another blast on it, and lo! arising they shall gaze around them: and the earth shall shine with the light of her Lord." 
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RE: authenticity vs authoritative

2005-01-08 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Hi Mark!
You wrote: However, Shoghi Effendi appears to have believed 
in degrees of authenticity. The Qur'an is more authentic (from 
a Baha'i, not necessarily an academic, viewpoint) than the 
Bible, just as the actual writings of Shoghi Effendi are more 
authentic than letters written on his behalf.

authentic

1 obsolete : AUTHORITATIVE
2 a : worthy of acceptance or belief as conforming to or based 
on fact paints an authentic picture of our society

  b : conforming to an original so as to reproduce essential 
features an authentic reproduction of a colonial farmhouse

  c : made or done the same way as an original authentic 
Mexican fare

3 : not false or imitation : REAL, ACTUAL based on authentic 
documents an authentic cockney accent

Lest there be any misunderstanding concerning the authority 
as opposed to authenticity of letters written on behalf of 
the Guardian I'm providing this link from a post to this list 
in April 2000 which includes this closing comment from the 
Research Department to the Universal House of Justice:

From the above extracts it seems fairly clear that letters 
written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi related strictly to the 
Cause and interpretation of the teachings constitute 
authoritative Baha'i text, while any personal advice which 
they may contain is not binding. The Guardian's statement that 
he reviewed every letter written on his behalf without 
exception makes it clear that the authority of the letters was 
independent of whatever personal sufferings might have been 
caused by certain secretaries, and that there was no 
delegation whatsoever of his interpretative authority, but 
merely a use of secretarial assistance for his huge burden of 
correspondence.

http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m16252.html

Lovingly,  Sandra
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RE: authenticity vs authoritative