Just a quickie from the hip, gav .... to come back to later. Firstly, as far as I'm concerned, that's the right question. Seondly, part of the answer is understanding how those cycles work - they are actually driven by knowledge - applied knowledge (aka "technology" in a technical sense of the word). Thirdly, "profit-based" would be too narrow a focus to start with, we should just not rule profits out. Evolution is about "cui-bono". We need to better define what profits (good outcomes, values) are besides tyrannical numbers.
You had it right first time. The word is sustainable .... the catch that confuses some, is that sustained is not the same as static ... the future (like the past) will always involve ups and downs ... dynamic is good. (and yes I realize I'm playing fast and loose between Pirsigian and natural language uses of the word static ...) It would be wonderful as far as I am concerned to have a sensible convesation about this ... but we'd need an idiot-free zone ;-) I'll be back. Ian On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:47 AM, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based economic system (ie > capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how can we avoid the boom - bust - war > cycle that has characterised capitalism in practice for the past century or > so. > > of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war things to be > avoided. (general assent here?) > > > > --- On Thu, 16/10/08, Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> From: Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 7:23 PM >> Ah yes Schumpeter, Kondratiev waves of cultural evolution in >> economic >> cycles .... in my Master's thesis almost 20 years ago. >> A big fan. >> >> Profit is good ... it's just that a free (like totally >> free, man) >> market may be the best way to make profits, but it's >> not the best way >> to decide how they're used .... some public >> accountability / >> regulation / insurance for lean times is needed there. >> >> Ian >> >> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 1:12 PM, ml >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > I don't know if anyone has pointed out that >> > the nineyeenth century view of capitalism >> > ostensibly espoused here by many of the anti- >> > freemarket crowd ourght be replaced with a >> > better model as per Schumpater. ( So, read >> > Schumpater. all who have an SQ view of the >> > free market system, or you are on the wrong >> > page, pointing at a rock and calling it a bird.) >> > >> > Profit, rather than being theft from the workers of >> > their blood, sweat and tears, has more correctly >> > been pointed out to be, for a company, more like >> > the fall feeding of a bear--the necessary cushion >> > through lean times for survival of the enterprise. >> > (This is not todrny that there are some humans >> > who act like thieves and steal from the enterprize >> > and their fellow workers. That is a different >> problem >> > similar to the 'more equal' problem in other >> systems.) >> > >> > Profit also pays for the growth of the enterprise and >> > EVERY company I've worked for or owned paid a >> > bonus to employees that spread the profit to them. >> > >> > Not for profit operations often operate less >> efficiently >> > and squander any chance of surplus and returns less >> > if anything to community. >> > >> > thanks--mel >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > To: <moq_discuss@lists.moqtalk.org> >> > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:59 PM >> > Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability >> > >> > >> >> [gav] >> >> is profit inherently unsustainable? or is >> >> there room for profit in a sustainable economy? >> > >> > Gav,You're comparing two different things: the >> structure of the >> > workplacevs. its profit status. The structure of the >> workplace can be >> > egalitarian(everyone has an equal voice) or it can be >> hierarchial (either >> > top-down orbottom-up).A company can be for-profit or >> non-profit. All >> > combinations are possible.For instance, a for-profit >> company can have an >> > egalitarian structure.If investors find this structure >> more efficient (= >> > more profitable)they will prefer it. On the other >> hand, a non-profit >> > hospital will generallyhave a chief administrator >> (with an advanced degree >> > in hospitalmanagement) & won't consult the >> janitorial staff on new >> > medicalequipment purchases.What happens when an >> employee controlled, >> > non-profit companycompetes against a for-profit one? >> Assume they are >> > bothmanufacturing companies, competing in the same >> market,selling the same >> > product for the same price. >> > >> > The price gets allocatedinto 4 categories: >> > I) variable costs (utilities, raw >> materials) >> > II) capital costs (land, building, >> machines) >> > III) wage >> > IV) "P-factor" (to be explained). >> > To simply: Assume the rates for I) & II) are the >> same.In the for-profit >> > company, investors provide the capital.In the >> non-profit company, the money >> > for the capital is borrowed.The amount allocated to >> III) & IV) vary >> > inversely.In the for-profit company, the lower III) >> wages get,the higher IV) >> > the "P-factor" (= profit) is.In the >> non-profit company, the money for >> > capital costs (+ interest)is repaid from IV) the >> "P-factor", the rest goes >> > to III) wages.The capitalist puts downward pressure on >> wages,while the >> > employee controlled company puts upward pressureon >> them. Craig >> > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ---- >> > >> > >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> Archives: >> >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
