Well you've just proven for all the list to see that you are victim to mis-representations and hearsay, otherwise you would not how dramatically untrue your facts are... Sridhar you are the very voice of in-experience. I have no desire to waste my time trying to convince or enlighten you, as to many of your fallacies (which are intermixed with grains of truth to make then seem correct, as things often are). Suffice it to say that you REALLY need to get out more buddy... In about 20 years I'd love to chat with you about this again and review how your views have changed with maturity. -JMS |-----Original Message----- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Sridhar |Dhanapalan |Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:07 AM |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Subject: Re: [newbie] Re: [LINUX_Newbies] USA TERROR ATTACK!!!! | | |On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:12:40 -0700, John W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: |> At 06:14 PM 9/12/01 +1000, you wrote: |> >On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:03:37 +0800, "Franki" |<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> |> >wrote: |> > > I don't think the terrorists deserver american style justice... |> > |> >NOBODY deserves "american style justice". |> |> I disagree. People hate us because we are successful. (microsoft |> comes to |> mind) | |Why did I expect this sort of response? This is so typically |American, the kind of thing that you are infused with in |American schools and from watching too many American movies. |No, I am not making this up, nor am I trying to be |deliberately anti-American. I have many American friends who |would agree with me. The USA is not the bastion of democracy |that it once was. Today it is the bastion of capitalism, which |was in turn the child of democracy. Why does the USA have the |highest crime rates, the lowest literacy rates, among the |lowest life expectancy rates, and the largest income gap |between rich and poor (with many going hungry) in the |industrialised world? Is this what you call "successful"? |Would you define "success" by how much you can screw over the |world's poor in order to fill your own pockets? I certainly don't. | |There is far greater "justice" and equality across the |Atlantic, in Western Europe. There is even greater equality in |some Asian nations, like Japan. | |> I think that when the individuals responsible are determined that if |> they |> are in a country such as Afghanistan that would harbor and |protect them |> then they the whole of Afghanistan "Deserves" whatever |happens to them. |> Todays occurences are exactly why the USA has to be involved |in every |> happening throughout the world. If you claim that the US is the only |> country who selectively chooses what they are involved in |then you are |> blind to the workings of the world. |> |> |> >I am doing a major in Government and International |Relations as part |> >of my university degree (along with Information Systems). The most |> >important thing to learn is that you cannot impose Western liberal |> >views upon those who haven't had |> >a Western liberal upbringing. For example, if these guys |are Arab, then |> >you have |> >to think like an Arab in order to understand them. Thinking like an |Australian |> >or an American doesn't help one bit. |> |> > So if we are to think like Arabs then we should react like arabs? |> > Go in |> > and destroy the whole country and everyone in it |regardless of what and |> > why????? The funny thing is that although we have what |> > esentially undeniable evidence that it is an arab faction |responsible it |> > has not yet been proven for certain but everyone has |already in their |> > minds nailed Bin Laden, et al. |> |> |> |> >Before I get labelled as being callous, let me add that I do _not_ |> >condone |> >such |> >behaviour, and my heart goes out to the victims' families. |It is important, |> >however, to remain calm and level-headed in such a crisis. This is, |> >understandably, _very_ difficult to do if you know someone |who is involved. |We |> >should try to look objectively at the events, and not just |get swept |> >away |> >by all |> >the media coverage. |> |> |> Be callous, you should be. 10,000+ people killed in an |hour!!! (not |> fact |> but conceivable) These people had no concern for anything or |anyone. Few if |> any of the victims of this really have anything to do with |the way the US |> supposedly polices the world. My thoughts are that the US needs to |> obliterate a few countries to get the point across that we will not |> tolerate this type behavior against ourselves or our allies. |(assuming we |> actually have any) | |This is yet another stereotype that I had expected. Why are |Americans, on the whole, so belligerent? Serving a military |career appears to be the best way to get into government in |the USA. With presidents like Eisenhower (who was a |general) and Bush (Snr, who held a high position in the CIA), |it is no surprise that US foreign policy has been so |confrontational during the past fifty years. What scares me |most is that people actually _vote_ for these guys and not for |somebody who is more responsible. | |I am being a realist here. If world leaders were as emotional |as you are here we would have wiped each other out through a |global war. I said that I sympathise with the victims' |families, and that I don't condone such violence. I stand by |that. However, is 10,000 dead people really that many, when |you take into account that US foreign policy is responsible |for the suffering and deaths of many millions worldwide? Read |my other posts in this thread for details on this. | |Do you really believe that you can fight fire with fire? |Violence begets violence, and the first to suffer are the |innocent. This has been seen time and time again in wars |worldwide, including the two world wars, the Korean War, the |Third Indochinese War (often called the "Vietnam War"), Iraq |and the Balkans wars. In today's age of guerilla warfare, drug |trafficking and terrorism, the distinction between soldier and |innocent has blurred to the stage where traditional military |strategy does not work, unless you wish to massacre entire |villages (as American troops have done in Korea and Vietnam). | |We need to tackle the _root_ of the problem. The main root of |crime is poor education and poverty. Therefore the best way to |tackle crime is to improve education and the standard of |living. Similarly, the root of these bombings is US allowance |and support of practices which lead to poverty and brutal, |authoritarian rule. The US government (not necessarily the |people) supposedly has ideals of "life, liberty and the |pursuit of happiness", but only for their own people. They |couldn't care less about the world's underprivileged, because |exploiting them can lead to "the pursuit of happiness" for |Americans. The United States government gives about 1% of its |annual budget as foreign aid, far lower than any other |industrialised nation, despite it having the largest economy |in the world. The Bill and Belinda Gates foundation donated |more money towards world health issues in 2000 than did the US |government. | |The hallmark of over-capitalism is massive inequity, and we |are seeing this occur both within and outside the USA. Many |Americans appear to be afraid of mentioning that point, |despite the fact that their children cannot receive a decent |education in government schools. I read recently that the |education system in a particular state (I forget which one, I |think it started with "P") was bankrupt, and at the same time |Microsoft was auditing them for software licenses. Of course, |with such a cash-strapped system, they had been forced to |pirate software, and now they owe millions to M$. | |I shall now expect to be labelled as a communist simply |because I am concerned for my fellow human beings :-) | |Note that while I'm focussing on the USA here (because of the |terrorist attacks), this hardly means that other nations have |a clean sheet. On the contrary, all of the "advanced |democracies" (including my own country, |Australia) are to blame, but the USA is by far the worst of a |bad bunch. | |If you wish to know where I'm coming from, I'm writing with |several years of geography, economics, government and |international relations training under my belt. There is far |more to this than the Anglo-American neoliberal standpoint |(which is what they usually teach you in schools in nations |like the US and Australia), and it is important to try to |approach the problem from different angles in order to |understand it properly. I would hardly call myself an expert, |but I feel that I know what I'm talking about here. | |> John W | |Somebody please prove to me that this world is not as sick and |twisted as I think it is. | |-- |Sridhar Dhanapalan. | "There are two major products that come from Berkeley: | LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." | -- Jeremy S. Anderson | |
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