http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide Your claim of suicide as "weakness" is what I was reacting to. There have been some who thought of "suicide" as the only "heroic" option to a situation they were facing.... the Japanese, seppuku is not the only example of this, I am particularly fond of some of Vittorio Alfieri's tragedies in this vein. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfieri But I found the topic of suicide most convincingly portryed by another Italian poet/playright, Torquato Tasso, in his play titled Aminta. Tasso, own biographical history and experience with "depression" or even Leopardi... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquato_Tasso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopardi And, of course, there's the treatment given to the topic by Albert Camus... or even Kafka. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus I've thought about this topic, in my literature-based sort of way..... all of which leads me to appreciate your own distinction about the "actual" suffering of the poor or abused (I've experienced some of that myself) as compared to the sometimes relatively minor cause for suffering in others who may be more advantaged, but still.... weakness is NOT the only explanation for suicide, nor is it always a question of reaction to abuse..... I guess I'm saying that (your "weakness") one answer does not account for all cases.
On Oct 5, 1:16 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > nominal9, > > Boy do you have me wrong. I spent my entire career working with the abused, > neglected, the truly oppressed and weak. To put forth a claim by/for an > educated member of a first world country that allows himself to be "Bullied" > by images or admissions of HIS OWN ACTS performed out of free will is > absolutely ludicrous and lessens the plight of the people that truly suffer > at the hands of others because there is/are no other choice/choices. > > Get a grip on that which is and is not truly life threatening.... do not > include those items that are simply life changing then get back to me. > > Committing suicide because one is embarrassed, ashamed or feels worthless > simply because of anothers negative attitude is ridiculous. Was he gay > because he was depressed or was he depressed because he was gay ?? NO, he > was depressed because he was mentally weak and allowed the mere opinions of > others to affect him.... > > This is NOT a "GAY" issue... it is one of basic perceptions of ones self and > others. It happens to EVERYONE regardless of their walk in life. > > Men and women have committed suicide because of the loss of money, the loss > of a lover/spouse, a friend, shit there have even been suicides because of > hair loss. > > One common link.... all could be said to be depressed.... all could be said > to have a "cure"... never allow someone to lose a lover, force them to stay; > ban hair loss, but then these things are simple things that are in all walks > of life and continue to defy logic as to how someone could be so STUPID to > commit suicide over such triviality... well it was obviously NOT trivial to > THEM. > > This is also true of Gays that commit suicide because they are gay and can't > take the pressures. It is irrational to give it credence on a societal > level. It is strictly a PERSONAL choice. If not, all bald men, all people > that went broke and lost a fortune or those that lost a lover or those that > are gay would have been dead yesterday. > > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:28 AM, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mark.... this "weakness" claim of yours is a"fiction".... doesn't > > comport with human experience. Take the example of "growing up"... > > from birth to relative maturity. At what point does a baby or a child > > lose his/her emotional "weakness"....? Is a baby who is physically or > > mentally abused by "grown-ups" (depraved ones, let's say).... > > emotionally weak... for crying or trying to escape? If not a "baby" > > then at what point in an abusive continuum does a "youngster" develop > > into emotional "maturity" and therefor no longer has a right to claim > > victimization from an abuser.... twelve, thirteen, eighteen, twenty- > > one... thirty-five... fifty? > > You seem to have this John Wayne tough-guy movie fiction working in > > your head.....Maybe you should talk to some honest-to-goodness, real- > > life stand-up people.... and stop depending on romanticized "gung-ho" > > pablum for your assumptions into something you probably have never > > experienced, yourself.... > > Sounds like tough talk on my part.... but, frankly, tell me if and > > when you have had experience in this regard, yourself... you know... > > standing up to very aggressive or assertive people, who struck > > understandable and "doable" fear into you.... > > > On Oct 5, 10:07 am, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Oh, but they are weaknesses....... show me ONE that is a strength or that > > > makes you NORMAL. It is a weakness in fact and by definition. > > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Tommy News <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > *No Mark. You are misinformed.* > > > > ** > > > > *Depression is not a weakness, it is a mental illness.* > > > > ** > > > > *Ilnesses are not weaknesses. > > > > * > > > > > On 10/4/10, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> *****Depression is something more that a purely "psychological" > > > >> condition... it's "social", too.**** > > > > >> Please explain which disease or weakness of the Psyche is not effected > > by > > > >> ALL outside influences.... Depression is a weakness... if you want > > protected > > > >> because you have it... wear a sign... do not expect different or > > special > > > >> treatment by anyone unless you inform them all. > > > > >> Again, to drive him over the edge he must have been doing something > > that > > > >> he found so personally, morally or socially repugnant/unacceptable... > > for > > > >> whatever reason and this is and was his OWN problem. > > > > >> As to candid cameraman... prosecute him.... but NOT for the boys > > suicide > > > >> (read the definition). > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:16 AM, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>> Depression is something more that a purely "psychological" > > > >>> condition... it's "social", too. This young person suicide victim was > > > >>> doing well enough until he was harassed (at least twice, apparently) > > > >>> by his room-mate. The "victim" was definitely the "recipient" of the > > > >>> act of being video-recorded in his sex acts (without his knowledge or > > > >>> consent, against his will) anfd then having those video-recordings > > > >>> broadcast to the public. This is a two part question of "psychology" > > > >>> the psychology of the room-mate (as agent/patient) who performed the > > > >>> act and the the psychology of the Victim (as patient/recipient) > > > >>> first.. turned (as agent patient) into the performer of his own act > > of > > > >>> suicide. > > > > >>> ROOM-MATE > > > >>> I hate homos / want them dead....I tolerate homos / they can live > > > >>> C(BAD)..........R(BAD).... > > > >>> I hate homos / they can live..........I tolerate homos / want them > > > >>> dead > > > > >>> VICTIM > > > >>> love oneself / live.... hate oneself / suicide > > > >>> C(GOOD).......R(GOOD).... > > > >>> love oneself / suicide... hate oneself / live > > > > >>> ROOM-MATE > > > >>> Harass / Peep&Shame......Respect / Honor Privacy > > > >>> C(BAD)....R(BAD).... > > > >>> Harass / Honor Privacy......Respect / Peep&Shame > > > > >>> VICTIM > > > >>> hate oneself / suicide......love oneself / live > > > >>> C(BAD) .......R(BAD)...... > > > >>> hateoneself / live............love oneself / suicide > > > > >>> Basically, the VICTIM, after the "motivated act" of the ROOMMATE took > > > >>> on the Sentiment (hate) and the intent (public shame) of the act that > > > >>> was performed against him and acted as the ROOM-MATE "wanted" him > > > >>> to.... he was "impresssionable", or appalled by the "cruelty" of > > > >>> someone who could have (should have) been a "friend' (strictly that) > > > >>> and decided to give the ROOM-MATE what he desired...... personally, > > my > > > >>> moral compass (and sense of justice) tells me that he should have > > > >>> killed the ROOM-MATE, instead. > > > > >>> On Oct 1, 7:53 pm, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>> > Tommy, No. > > > > >>> > Depression and or the propensity for it definitely varies person to > > > >>> person > > > >>> > with EVERYONE being different and having their own limits. Only > > those > > > >>> with > > > >>> > one foot on the ledge can be shoved over. > > > > >>> > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Tommy News <[email protected]> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > *Your twisted pretzel logic does not pass muster.* > > > >>> > > ** > > > >>> > > *You fail to see that depression is often triggered by the acts > > of > > > >>> others, > > > >>> > > such as bullies and abusive homophobic taunters.* > > > >>> > > ** > > > >>> > > *Suicide is caused by many factors.* > > > > >>> > > *Hatred, bullies, and bigotry are also caused by many factors.* > > > > >>> > > On 10/1/10, Jonathan Ashley <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> *SUICIDE*, n. [L. suicidium; se and coedo, to slay.] > > > >>> > >> 1. Self-murder; the act of designedly destroying one's own life. > > > > >>> > >> By definition, one cannot cause someone else to commit > > > >>> "self-murder." If > > > >>> > >> someone else can be factually proven to be at fault, then that > > > >>> individual > > > >>> > >> would be guilty of murder. > > > > >>> > >> Has the individual who took the video been arrested for murder? > > If > > > >>> not, > > > >>> > >> you are jousting at windmills. > > > > >>> > >> On 10/1/2010 1:08 PM, Tommy News wrote: > > > > >>> > >> *Ignorant homophobes like you cause these suicides.* > > > > >>> > >> On 10/1/10, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>> No Tommy, it is not. The urge to destroy oneself is as ancient > > as > > > >>> life > > > >>> > >>> itself. There are so very many reasons people do this to > > > >>> themselves, both > > > >>> > >>> real and unreal reasons. There is however ONE reason ALL > > suicides > > > >>> do > > > >>> > >>> this.... they are too weak to cope and that, Sir, is a personal > > > >>> problem. It > > > >>> > >>> is NOT societal, and NOT something that can be legislated that > > > >>> causes me to > > > >>> > >>> lose the freedom to ask if someone is Gay or Lesbian (for > > whatever > > > >>> reason) > > > >>> > >>> or to call someone a flaming Queen if they are acting like one. > > > > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Tommy News < > > [email protected]> > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>> *Markie, Markie, Markie.* > > > >>> > >>>> ** > > > >>> > >>>> *Your ugly negativity and snarky spin is most perverse.* > > > >>> > >>>> *One suicide is one too many.* > > > > >>> > >>>> *No man is an island* > > > > >>> > >>>> No man is an island entire of itself; every man > > > >>> > >>>> is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; > > > >>> > >>>> if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe > > > >>> > >>>> is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as > > > >>> > >>>> well as any manner of thy friends or of thine > > > >>> > >>>> own were; any man's death diminishes me, > > > >>> > >>>> because I am involved in mankind. > > > >>> > >>>> And therefore never send to know for whom > > > >>> > >>>> the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. > > > > >>> > >>>> -John Donne > > > > >>> > >>>> On 10/1/10, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>> Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, > > > > >>> > >>>>> He must have had a > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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