RE: [abcusers] ABC2win to sound card

[Alan Preliasco]

Hi Phil,

I'd be happy to be a beta tester for you.

Alan Preliasco


From: Phil Headford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [abcusers] ABC2win to sound card
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:01:17 -
Hi,   I'm getting a Visual Basic program together that goes with ABC2win, 
but diverts sound from the PC speaker to the sound card. Anyone care to 
trial it or criticise?

Flos

Phil (Flos) Headford

editor: Folkwrite magazine (Gloucestershire and surrounding counties)
co-editor: Shreds & Patches magazine (Shropshire and neighbours)
fiddle: Old Swan Band, The English Country Dance Band, Cwm Dancing, Big Bad 
Contra
01952 240989 / 01452 310372 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
38 Upton Street, Tredworth, Gloucester GL1  4LA



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[abcusers] ABC2win to sound card

[Phil Headford]

Hi,   I'm getting a Visual Basic program together that goes with ABC2win, but diverts 
sound from the PC speaker to the sound card. Anyone care to trial it or criticise?

Flos

Phil (Flos) Headford

editor: Folkwrite magazine (Gloucestershire and surrounding counties)
co-editor: Shreds & Patches magazine (Shropshire and neighbours) 
fiddle: Old Swan Band, The English Country Dance Band, Cwm Dancing, Big Bad Contra
01952 240989 / 01452 310372 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
38 Upton Street, Tredworth, Gloucester GL1  4LA



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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Frank Nordberg]

John Walsh wrote:

...
Incidentally, for abc historians: if you have a copy of a Basic
manual collecting dust on your shelves, check out the PLAY command.
Hmmm...
I think I can kinda guess what you're hinting at, but so many years have 
past!

So, for those of us who happens to have such antiqus safely stored in 
our parents' house five hundred miles from present location: You don't 
happen to have a web reference, do you?

Frank Nordberg
http://www.musicaviva.com
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[John Walsh]

Frank Nordberg writes:

>Well, since I'm to blame for transcribing one of those books into ABC: 
>abc2ps *did* in fact have some serious problems with some of the O'Neill 
>1001 tunes. I don't remember the details, though. Might have been some 
>generic ABC problems, not related to abc2ps at all.
>
I did a number of tunes from the 1760.  There was quite a bit
that couldn't be rendered at that time. The problem was more abc than
abc2ps: it couldn't do segnos, fermata over bar lines, D.C. (or anything
else which went below the staff), mordents, or sharp signs over turn
signs over notes. (Still can't do that one!) It could do the tildes and
"tr" over notes but they looked looked pretty cheesy; and in the airs
there was quite a bit of other stuff---e.g. dynamic markings such as pp,
ff, and crescendo hairpins. Tempo and expression indicators at the top
of the tune such as "quickly", "cheerfully", "slowly" etc. had to be
done with guitar chords and never looked right... et cetera and et
cetera. This was one of the main reasons to implement the !  !
notation.

Incidentally, for abc historians: if you have a copy of a Basic
manual collecting dust on your shelves, check out the PLAY command.


Cheers,
John Walsh
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Frank Nordberg]

John Chambers wrote:
...
Thus, my site has a copy of the three O'Neill's books  that
have  been transcribed, and the Ryan/Cole collection (up to
800 tunes now).  I doubt that abc2ps would have any problem
with  anything  in  these canonical Irish collections.
Well, since I'm to blame for transcribing one of those books into ABC: 
abc2ps *did* in fact have some serious problems with some of the O'Neill 
1001 tunes. I don't remember the details, though. Might have been some 
generic ABC problems, not related to abc2ps at all.

Frank Nordberg
http://www.musicaviva.com
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 04:10:20PM -0400, Laura Conrad wrote:
> > "Richard" == Richard Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> 
> Richard> What I do is take all the text out of the abc tune, use
> Richard> the usual abc2ps suspects to generate an eps of the bare
> Richard> tune (with no text), have LaTeX set the title and any
> Richard> other abc-tune text (according to a printf-style format
> Richard> string) and then use LaTeX's \includegraphics to get the
> Richard> tune eps in.
> 
> I did a whole book like that.  A major disadvantage was that most of
> the "tunes" in my book took more than one page, so I had to do the
> page-breaking by hand.  That's one of the reasons I use lilypond-book
> now.

Yes. It's possible to deal with postscript that goes to several pages, 
but I never got as far as taking control of the size of the first chunk.


-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Laura Conrad]

> "Richard" == Richard Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Richard> What I do is take all the text out of the abc tune, use
Richard> the usual abc2ps suspects to generate an eps of the bare
Richard> tune (with no text), have LaTeX set the title and any
Richard> other abc-tune text (according to a printf-style format
Richard> string) and then use LaTeX's \includegraphics to get the
Richard> tune eps in.

I did a whole book like that.  A major disadvantage was that most of
the "tunes" in my book took more than one page, so I had to do the
page-breaking by hand.  That's one of the reasons I use lilypond-book
now.

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 09:41:51PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 09:25:14PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
> > > > > For lowlevel TeX formatting of music notation,
> > > > > one can use already several excellent packages
> > > > > such as MTX, PMX and Lilypond. These are all
> > > > > actively maintained.
> > >
> > > If the music is in TeX, it is easy to handle the
> > > accompaniying text in (La)TeX as well.
> >
> > I'm not sure of your point here ? Do you mean that the packages you
> > mention can be used to convert ABC into TeX,
> 
> It would be very useful if that would be made possible.
> Currently, only Lilypond has limited support for ABC
> import.

Yes. I looked at it briefly, but it didn't seem to cope with the things
I was giving it ...

> > as an alternative to converting it into eps via the
> > "usual suspects" ?
> 
> The advantage would be that the text of the titles and
> lyrics would be handled according to the same (high)
> standards as the surrounding text that you would like
> to add with (La)TeX.

What I do is take all the text out of the abc tune, use the usual
abc2ps suspects to generate an eps of the bare tune (with no text),
have LaTeX set the title and any other abc-tune text (according to
a printf-style format string) and then use LaTeX's \includegraphics
to get the tune eps in.

> Furthermore, TeX allows you to finetune the music
> engraving to the highest publication quality.

Yes, I suppose so.
-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Laura Conrad]

> "Richard" == Richard Robinson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> > Ah, but I didn't mean TeX formatting of the musical
>> > notation. I meant, how to get typesetting of text that
>> > surrounds abc, how to handle the mixing of text and tunes -
>> > placing abc tunes on a sheet of paper along with other text;
>> > or text on a sheet of tunes, depending on how you look at it.
>> 
>> If the music is in TeX, it is easy to handle the
>> accompaniying text in (La)TeX as well.

Richard> I'm not sure of your point here ? Do you mean that the
Richard> packages you mention can be used to convert ABC into TeX,
Richard> as an alternative to converting it into eps via the
Richard> "usual suspects" ?

I can't speak to what Irwin meant, but it is indeed true that if you
convert ABC into lilypond, you can then include the lilypond in a
Latex file to create a Latex document.  I believe there are similar
possibilities with musixtex.

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[I. Oppenheim]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 09:25:14PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
> > > > For lowlevel TeX formatting of music notation,
> > > > one can use already several excellent packages
> > > > such as MTX, PMX and Lilypond. These are all
> > > > actively maintained.
> >
> > If the music is in TeX, it is easy to handle the
> > accompaniying text in (La)TeX as well.
>
> I'm not sure of your point here ? Do you mean that the packages you
> mention can be used to convert ABC into TeX,

It would be very useful if that would be made possible.
Currently, only Lilypond has limited support for ABC
import.

> as an alternative to converting it into eps via the
> "usual suspects" ?

The advantage would be that the text of the titles and
lyrics would be handled according to the same (high)
standards as the surrounding text that you would like
to add with (La)TeX.

Furthermore, TeX allows you to finetune the music
engraving to the highest publication quality.


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 09:25:14PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote:
> 
> > > For lowlevel TeX formatting of music notation,
> > > one can use already several excellent packages
> > > such as MTX, PMX and Lilypond. These are all
> > > actively maintained.
> >
> > Ah, but I didn't mean TeX formatting of the musical notation. I meant,
> > how to get typesetting of text that surrounds abc, how to handle the
> > mixing of text and tunes - placing abc tunes on a sheet of paper along with
> > other text; or text on a sheet of tunes, depending on how you look at
> > it.
> 
> If the music is in TeX, it is easy to handle the
> accompaniying text in (La)TeX as well.

I'm not sure of your point here ? Do you mean that the packages you
mention can be used to convert ABC into TeX, as an alternative to
converting it into eps via the "usual suspects" ?

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[I. Oppenheim]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Richard Robinson wrote:

> > For lowlevel TeX formatting of music notation,
> > one can use already several excellent packages
> > such as MTX, PMX and Lilypond. These are all
> > actively maintained.
>
> Ah, but I didn't mean TeX formatting of the musical notation. I meant,
> how to get typesetting of text that surrounds abc, how to handle the
> mixing of text and tunes - placing abc tunes on a sheet of paper along with
> other text; or text on a sheet of tunes, depending on how you look at
> it.

If the music is in TeX, it is easy to handle the
accompaniying text in (La)TeX as well.


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 05:57:39PM +, John Chambers wrote:
> Richard Robinson writes:
> |
> | Yes. Also all those Balkan ones, where it would be nice to write 7 as
> | (4+3)/4, 18 as (4+3+3+4+4)/8, or whatever.
> 
> ...
> 
> Not that I use Q: lines much. In fact, it's often more useful to just
> produce the notes without a tempo.  So
>   Q: 1/8 1/8 3/16 1/8 1/8
> would draw the conventional 5-note rhythm tipoff for a kopanica.  Any
> Balkan musician would know the approximate tempo.

That's neat. I hadn't thought to try that.


> I wonder if this violates anything in the standard? I think there are
> other abc programs that will handle, say,
>   Q: 1/4=120
> in the usual way, and draw a quarter note for the 1/4. I just made it
> do  the  substitution for any fraction that looks like a note length.

I shall await comments before making any big commitment to it ...

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 07:41:43PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote:
> > The TeX-ness of it makes for many possibilities that the %%text
> > constructions can't get near, in terms of setting text and tunes
> > together on a page. (nor would we want them too, I reckon. Oh
> > dear, have I just started another 6-month thread ?). My feeling about
> > this is that abc and typesetting are separate issues;
> 
> For lowlevel TeX formatting of music notation,
> one can use already several excellent packages
> such as MTX, PMX and Lilypond. These are all
> actively maintained.

Ah, but I didn't mean TeX formatting of the musical notation. I meant,
how to get typesetting of text that surrounds abc, how to handle the
mixing of text and tunes - placing abc tunes on a sheet of paper along with
other text; or text on a sheet of tunes, depending on how you look at
it.

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[John Chambers]

Richard Robinson writes:
|
| Yes. Also all those Balkan ones, where it would be nice to write 7 as
| (4+3)/4, 18 as (4+3+3+4+4)/8, or whatever.

Actually, abc2ps and clones should handle this without  any  problem.
I've done this (with or without parens) in a number of tunes. The one
qualification might be that the '+' doesn't look  all  that  good  in
print.  It tends to overlap the 4th staff line, and it's too wide.  I
tend to use '.', mostly because it looks better.  Some  simple  tests
show that the parser isn't too picky about what's before or after the
'/'.  That's good for a music formatter.  It's maybe not so wonderful
if you're trying to write a player.

Another thing I did that was useful was to have the code that handles
the  Q:  line notice things that look like notes (2/4, 3/8, etc.) and
replace them with the actual notes.  Then I can write something like
   Q: 1/8 3/16=60
and it gets drawn with the two notes followed by "=60".   This  is  a
fairly conventional way of giving a tempo for such complex rhythms.

Not that I use Q: lines much. In fact, it's often more useful to just
produce the notes without a tempo.  So
  Q: 1/8 1/8 3/16 1/8 1/8
would draw the conventional 5-note rhythm tipoff for a kopanica.  Any
Balkan musician would know the approximate tempo.

I wonder if this violates anything in the standard? I think there are
other abc programs that will handle, say,
  Q: 1/4=120
in the usual way, and draw a quarter note for the 1/4. I just made it
do  the  substitution for any fraction that looks like a note length.
The original abc2ps did some of this, but it didn't always work; what
I did was more of a debugging job with a lot of Balkan test cases.

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[I. Oppenheim]

> The TeX-ness of it makes for many possibilities that the %%text
> constructions can't get near, in terms of setting text and tunes
> together on a page. (nor would we want them too, I reckon. Oh
> dear, have I just started another 6-month thread ?). My feeling about
> this is that abc and typesetting are separate issues;

For lowlevel TeX formatting of music notation,
one can use already several excellent packages
such as MTX, PMX and Lilypond. These are all
actively maintained.

It would be by far more helpful to maintain good,
standard conforming ABC import filters for these
packages than to maintain an abc2tex package directly.


  Groeten,
  Irwin Oppenheim
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  ~~~*

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 04:34:00PM +, John Chambers wrote:
> Richard Robinson writes:
> |
> | Heh heh. How about player programs ?
> 
> Yeah.  I think that the best approach for them is to  just  play  the
> note  lengths  that  they  find,  and  not  worry about it.  There is
> "unmeasured" abc around, and in some musical styles this is required.
> It  would  be nice if everything would support "M:none".  (Is this in
> the proposed standard?)
> 
> The Bavarian case is of at least minor  interest,  because  it's  not
> unmeasured.   It  has  lots of rhythm.  But part of the style is that
> different bars have different numbers  of  beats.   Sometimes  people
> write  the  time signature in (nearly) every measure.  Sometimes they
> get fed up with this, write 2 or 3 time signatures at the  beginning,
> and  the  reader  is expected to be able to count.  There are several
> conventional rhythmic notations here, all in active use.
> 
> Sometimes they (the writers and the readers) don't get it right.  But
> it can be a lot of fun.
> 
> One reason for being appalled by the likes of "M:23/44"  is  that  it
> pretty  much  means  that  a program won't be able to warn you if you
> mess up a measure.  It would be handy if you could say something that
> means "M:2/4 and M:3/4 are both used; but warn me if I type a measure
> with any other length." We've had suggestions that "M:2/4,3/4"  would
> be  the right way to do this.  But I don't think any software handles
> this right now, and it's probably not consistent with any standard.


Yes. Also all those Balkan ones, where it would be nice to write 7 as
(4+3)/4, 18 as (4+3+3+4+4)/8, or whatever.

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Jon Freeman]

From: "John Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...


> Jon Freeman writes:

> | There are good programs in the abc2ps group. The program Guido had
singled
> | out was abc2ps. This doesn't work too well to the draft standard and I
think
> | is unlikely to be updated. I could produce you an abc using w: where the
> | words would align perfectly in abcm2ps but not work out in abc2ps or
> | visa-versa.
>
> Hmmm ...  Could you show us such an example.  I'm not aware
> of  any changes to the w:  rules in abcm2ps or other abc2ps
> clones.  Which doesn't mean that there weren't any changes.
> But they may not have been intentional.  Michael's original
> implementation does seem to do quite a good job.

http://www.folkinfo.org/topic.asp?topic_ID=96 will detail some of the
problems we had when starting at folkinfo.

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[John Chambers]

Richard Robinson writes:
| On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:13:04PM +, John Chambers wrote:
| >
| > I also have a small "zweifacher" collection, trad  Bavarian
| > music with its jumble of meters. The old abc2ps does a fine
| > job with it in any of the usual forms.  It even handles the
| > demented  "M:23/44"  time signatures that you sometimes see
| > in this music, which both apalled  and  amused  me  when  I
| > first  stumbled  across it and found tht it "worked".  I've
| > even used this in a few of my transcriptions, to add to the
| > general level of perversity.  ;-)
|
| Heh heh. How about player programs ?

Yeah.  I think that the best approach for them is to  just  play  the
note  lengths  that  they  find,  and  not  worry about it.  There is
"unmeasured" abc around, and in some musical styles this is required.
It  would  be nice if everything would support "M:none".  (Is this in
the proposed standard?)

The Bavarian case is of at least minor  interest,  because  it's  not
unmeasured.   It  has  lots of rhythm.  But part of the style is that
different bars have different numbers  of  beats.   Sometimes  people
write  the  time signature in (nearly) every measure.  Sometimes they
get fed up with this, write 2 or 3 time signatures at the  beginning,
and  the  reader  is expected to be able to count.  There are several
conventional rhythmic notations here, all in active use.

Sometimes they (the writers and the readers) don't get it right.  But
it can be a lot of fun.

One reason for being appalled by the likes of "M:23/44"  is  that  it
pretty  much  means  that  a program won't be able to warn you if you
mess up a measure.  It would be handy if you could say something that
means "M:2/4 and M:3/4 are both used; but warn me if I type a measure
with any other length." We've had suggestions that "M:2/4,3/4"  would
be  the right way to do this.  But I don't think any software handles
this right now, and it's probably not consistent with any standard.

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[John Chambers]

Jon Freeman writes:
| From: "Iain (Jethro) Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
|
| > I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I
| > use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality
| > printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I
| > like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.
|
| There are good programs in the abc2ps group. The program Guido had singled
| out was abc2ps. This doesn't work too well to the draft standard and I think
| is unlikely to be updated. I could produce you an abc using w: where the
| words would align perfectly in abcm2ps but not work out in abc2ps or
| visa-versa.

Hmmm ...  Could you show us such an example.  I'm not aware
of  any changes to the w:  rules in abcm2ps or other abc2ps
clones.  Which doesn't mean that there weren't any changes.
But they may not have been intentional.  Michael's original
implementation does seem to do quite a good job.


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 03:13:04PM +, John Chambers wrote:
> 
> I also have a small "zweifacher" collection, trad  Bavarian
> music with its jumble of meters. The old abc2ps does a fine
> job with it in any of the usual forms.  It even handles the
> demented  "M:23/44"  time signatures that you sometimes see
> in this music, which both apalled  and  amused  me  when  I
> first  stumbled  across it and found tht it "worked".  I've
> even used this in a few of my transcriptions, to add to the
> general level of perversity.  ;-)

Heh heh. How about player programs ?

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Richard Robinson]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 02:52:28PM +, John Chambers wrote:
> Jethro writes:
> | I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I
> | use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality
> | printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I
> | like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.
> 
> I think that Guido was  talking  about  the  original  abc2ps,  which
> Michael  Methfessel  is not working on any more.  Its descendants all
> have names that are variants with one or two letters added.  They are
> probably  all  still  in  some  "development" state, but the original
> abc2ps is basically a museum piece now.  Not to say that  it  doesn't
> work;  it  works fine.  It just lacks some of the goodies that are in
> the clones.

I tend to use it, as default. A lot of my abc gets seen by other people,
so using something without the goodies helps keep it usable. At cost of
the goodies, of course, which I'd like to be able to use, if I ever get
the confidence that "the rest of the world" will be able to handle them.
Where I do need something that can't be done with abc2ps, I put a note
in the header about what variant is needed.


> I also see clues that a number of people are using  abc2mtex,  though
> it  may  be  restricted  to  those  who  have TeX installed for other
> reasons.  I've wondered whether someone might like to take this  over
> and  rework it for the new standard.  The result could be a very good
> music publishing tool.  But as far as I know,  abc2mtex  isn't  being
> worked on by anyone now.

The TeX-ness of it makes for many possibilities that the %%text
constructions can't get near, in terms of setting text and tunes
together on a page. (nor would we want them too, I reckon. Oh
dear, have I just started another 6-month thread ?). My feeling about
this is that abc and typesetting are separate issues; I do this by
converting each tune, individually, to eps (with all the text removed,
title and all) and then writing LaTeX around the "include eps" commands.
Which gives all the possibilities of LaTeX (rather than TeX) without
restricting me to abc2mtex. Automatic indexing, yeah ! having said
which, I still find TeX,etc, a nightmare to work with. I just don't know
anything else that does the job.

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[John Chambers]

Guido Gonzato writes:
| On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Iain (Jethro) Anderson wrote:
|
| > I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I
| > use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality
| > printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I
| > like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.
|
| nothing wrong: abcm2ps is one of my favourite pieces of software _ever_.
| In my view, it's so good and well thought-out that the standard should
| follow it closely.
|
| However, the ancestor abc2ps is painfully outdated; yet many people still
| use it - probably ignoring the existence of its successors.

I'm not sure I'd  agree  with  that.   True,  if  you  want
good-looking  versions  of  some  of  the  choral, band and
orchestral  music  that  jef  has   worked   on,   or   the
Balkan/Klezmer  tunes  in  my  collection,  you'll want the
clones that support those extensions.  But if  you're  into
traditional  music  of  most  of  Europe  or North America,
you'll find that abc2ps does a fine job on  the  abc  tunes
that you get online or in email.

Thus, my site has a copy of the three O'Neill's books  that
have  been transcribed, and the Ryan/Cole collection (up to
800 tunes now).  I doubt that abc2ps would have any problem
with  anything  in  these canonical Irish collections.  Nor
would abc2win, though it might draw staff breaks at  places
you  don't like (if you even care).  Tunes from the Village
Music Project work without more than an occasional  warning
about  the stray ! chars.  I'd guess that it does an ok job
of at least 90% of the abc on the web.

This isn't surprising, since the first significant crowd of
abc  users  was into music of this type.  No need for fancy
key signatures or multiple voices per staff, so what's  the
real problem?

I also have a small "zweifacher" collection, trad  Bavarian
music with its jumble of meters. The old abc2ps does a fine
job with it in any of the usual forms.  It even handles the
demented  "M:23/44"  time signatures that you sometimes see
in this music, which both apalled  and  amused  me  when  I
first  stumbled  across it and found tht it "worked".  I've
even used this in a few of my transcriptions, to add to the
general level of perversity.  ;-)

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[John Chambers]

Jethro writes:
| I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I
| use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality
| printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I
| like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.

I think that Guido was  talking  about  the  original  abc2ps,  which
Michael  Methfessel  is not working on any more.  Its descendants all
have names that are variants with one or two letters added.  They are
probably  all  still  in  some  "development" state, but the original
abc2ps is basically a museum piece now.  Not to say that  it  doesn't
work;  it  works fine.  It just lacks some of the goodies that are in
the clones.  Michael basically told us that he no longer had time  to
work  on  it, and tacitly encouraged us to take it and do interesting
things with it.

I also see clues that a number of people are using  abc2mtex,  though
it  may  be  restricted  to  those  who  have TeX installed for other
reasons.  I've wondered whether someone might like to take this  over
and  rework it for the new standard.  The result could be a very good
music publishing tool.  But as far as I know,  abc2mtex  isn't  being
worked on by anyone now.

The source for both abc2ps and abc2mtex is all available  for  anyone
who wants to work on them.

| --On Wednesday, July 16, 2003 07:55:53 +0200 Guido Gonzato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| wrote:
|
| > Statement #2. My goodness, at last! Isn't it time we declare programs like
| > abc2ps or abc2mtex _obsolete_ and _unsupported_? Isn't it time the ABC
| > home page warned people against using these old programs? Why people still
| > use abc2ps beats me.
| >
| > As long as we make the new ABC standard upwards compatible with 1.7.6,
| > there is no problem at all. And about those broken old ABC files, I remind
| > you that abcpp can fix most of them!
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Jon Freeman]

From: "Iain (Jethro) Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I
> use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality
> printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I
> like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.

There are good programs in the abc2ps group. The program Guido had singled
out was abc2ps. This doesn't work too well to the draft standard and I think
is unlikely to be updated. I could produce you an abc using w: where the
words would align perfectly in abcm2ps but not work out in abc2ps or
visa-versa.

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Guido Gonzato]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Iain (Jethro) Anderson wrote:

> I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I 
> use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality 
> printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I 
> like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.

nothing wrong: abcm2ps is one of my favourite pieces of software _ever_.
In my view, it's so good and well thought-out that the standard should
follow it closely. 

However, the ancestor abc2ps is painfully outdated; yet many people still
use it - probably ignoring the existence of its successors.

Later,
  Guido =8-)

-- 
Guido Gonzato, Ph.D.  - Linux System Manager
Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN.
Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy)
Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Iain (Jethro) Anderson]

I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing tunes - I 
use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce top quality 
printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the abc2ps's ?? - I 
like to use software that does one job - but does it very, very well.

Grump over.



--On Wednesday, July 16, 2003 07:55:53 +0200 Guido Gonzato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

Statement #2. My goodness, at last! Isn't it time we declare programs like
abc2ps or abc2mtex _obsolete_ and _unsupported_? Isn't it time the ABC
home page warned people against using these old programs? Why people still
use abc2ps beats me.
As long as we make the new ABC standard upwards compatible with 1.7.6,
there is no problem at all. And about those broken old ABC files, I remind
you that abcpp can fix most of them!
Iain (Jethro) Anderson - DBA (ISYS) University of Bristol
Pigsty Morris   City Clickers Step and Clog
Instep Research Team  Insword Rapper
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance"
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Re: [abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Jon Freeman]

From: "Guido Gonzato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> That said, programs don't necessarily have to comply to 1.7.6 or 2.0.0 or
> 3.1415. Many users are happy with single-voice ABC, so programs targeting
> these users may be left untouched. But what about we classical musicians,
> who need more? What's more important, so-called standards or people's
> needs?

As long as there is more than one program and they are all to be called abc
programs, standards are important. As I've noted before, our collection at
folkinfo is a small one but we want people to be free to be able to choose
between software programs and feel confident that the abc will turn out the
same for them.

> Statement #2. My goodness, at last! Isn't it time we declare programs like
> abc2ps or abc2mtex _obsolete_ and _unsupported_? Isn't it time the ABC
> home page warned people against using these old programs? Why people still
> use abc2ps beats me.
>
> As long as we make the new ABC standard upwards compatible with 1.7.6,
> there is no problem at all. And about those broken old ABC files, I remind
> you that abcpp can fix most of them!

>From my view point, when agreed, having abc 2.0 will be ideal for that. It's
sort of a "landmark" number and as long as the developers ensure thier
programs meet what parts of 2.0 they need to support and don't do anything
strange with unsupported bits), we and I'm sure others would be recommending
that users looked for abc 2 programs...

I'm not sure about legacy abc though. In our case, everything we have works
with abcm2ps so I don't see a problem but even if there was, it would be no
big deal to get everything up to spec if needed. I'm less than sure about
some sites that may use say abc2win though. If 2.0 did something that did
break it, do we enven know who to try to suggest the stuff should be
upgraded, let alone whether they would be willing?

Jon

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[abcusers] abc2win vs. ABC...

[Guido Gonzato]

> > Solutions that require a change in abc2win aren't solutions at all.
> 
> So all we can do is, find all abc programs that aren't being maintained,
> and document the common subset :(

I usually post only announcements on the list, but this time I want to comment
on this.

Statement #1. I rarely express strong opinions, but this is sheer
nonsense. abc2win isn't the Bible or the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita or
whatever. It's just a piece of software, with its advantages and
limitations. When abc2win users will find that some features are missing,
they'll turn to something else (say, Melody Assistant) and Jim will sell
fewer copies; then he'll rush to extend his program. Competition is a good
engine.

That said, programs don't necessarily have to comply to 1.7.6 or 2.0.0 or
3.1415. Many users are happy with single-voice ABC, so programs targeting
these users may be left untouched. But what about we classical musicians,
who need more? What's more important, so-called standards or people's
needs?

Statement #2. My goodness, at last! Isn't it time we declare programs like
abc2ps or abc2mtex _obsolete_ and _unsupported_? Isn't it time the ABC
home page warned people against using these old programs? Why people still
use abc2ps beats me.

As long as we make the new ABC standard upwards compatible with 1.7.6,
there is no problem at all. And about those broken old ABC files, I remind
you that abcpp can fix most of them!

Later,
  Guido =8-)

-- 
Guido Gonzato, Ph.D.  - Linux System Manager
Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN.
Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy)
Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[John Chambers]

Jack Campin writes:
| Perhaps it might make it clearer why I'm being so insistent about
| this if I explain what most of my time using ABC is spent doing.
| I spend about a full day a week in the National Library of Scotland
| researching things, mostly tunes, which are copied in ABC using a
| geriatric Mac laptop that runs BarFly and pair of cheap walkman
| headphones.
|
| For the time I'm transcribing tunes, I'm working with rare sources
| that I can't afford to have photocopied; the process required by the
| library for old and delicate material involves intermediate microfilm,
| and usually leads to a fairly bad result anyway, where things like
| articulation marks often get lost.  (The NLS's charges, which are
| among the lowest in Scotland for rare materials, are still high enough
| that if I wanted everything I transcribed to be on xerox first, I could
| easily incur a photocopy bill for a day's direct transcribing that was
| more than I paid for my laptop).

So have you (or they) considered using a digital camera instead? This
is  rapidly  becoming  a much more practical approach than microfilm.
For an example, look at:

http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/img/P7070088.JPG

I took this photo with a handheld Olympus C-700.  It's  one  of  many
cameras  with  a "macro" (;-) feature and can focus as close as about
10 cm.  This photo was taken from about 25 cm.  The weakness  of  the
staff  lines  isn't  a photo artifact; the original was that bad.  In
fact, the picture just might  be  slightly  more  readable  than  the
original.   Anyway,  this  was  taken with the page lying flat in its
binder, as you can probably see, and didn't require  me  or  anything
else  touching the page.  Bound pages would be a little bit trickier,
since they'd have to be held flat.  You'd probably want two people to
handle that, if the pages are at all fragile.

After taking the photo, I plugged the camera into  a  Mac  Powerbook,
iPhoto  read it in, and I scp'd it over to my web server.  This was a
couple minutes' work.  I'm not sure how much of this would work on  a
geriatric Mac, but it certainly works well with a newer Mac laptop.

Some years back, I read an interesting SF short story, about Sherlock
Holmes'  last case.  He was contracted by a local "flying saucer nut"
to investigate the possibility of visiting aliens.  Sherlock  thought
that  if they were really here, and hadn't announced themselves, they
were probably scholars studying our planet. So one good place to look
for  them would be the British Museum.  He went there and watched the
patrons.  He noticed some of them taking photos of a number of  books
in the collection, without using flash.  So he came back later with a
light meter, and with a bit of research at camera dealers, determined
that there were no cameras available that could take hand-held photos
without flash under the museum's low-light conditions.   This  proved
that  they  were using technology not available on Earth, so they had
to be aliens.  Case solved.

This story might not work now.  I did use flash for my photo, but I'm
pretty  sure  there  are digital cameras available (for a good price)
that wouldn't have needed flash.  But this does give you an  idea  of
what  a  consumer-grade  camera  costing a few hundred dollars can do
now.  Just make sure it can do close focus, 20 cm or less.

(I wonder if I could find the story.  I don't recall who wrote it  or
what the title was.  As the story continues, Sherlock is soon visited
by one of the aliens, who learned of him because they were monitoring
the  saucer-nut  organization,  and thus learned that he had unmasked
them.  They wanted to hire him to look for other aliens, because they
were  having problems with unauthorized visitors to Earth, and needed
someone who was good at spotting them ...)

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[Jack Campin]

> The standard can be set to say that !...! is a special symbol, and
> developers can programs to read files on that basis UNLESS the
> header contains "abc2win" in which case it is a line break!
> Someone tell me that life really could be that simple!

It isn't.  I really want mid-line ! linebreaks (they're far more
important to me than anything I could achieve with !...! constructs)
and I have been lobbying Phil for years to add them to BarFly,
which doesn't put any creator info in its headers by default.

This isn't a matter of supporting legacy tunes, it's about doing
something mostly new (insofar as abc2win users don't seem to have
yet exploited this possibility in their program the way I want to
use it) AND IT CANNOT BE ACHIEVED BY ANY OTHER MEANS.

Let's hope there are a lot more programs that can use them in future.

Perhaps it might make it clearer why I'm being so insistent about
this if I explain what most of my time using ABC is spent doing.
I spend about a full day a week in the National Library of Scotland
researching things, mostly tunes, which are copied in ABC using a
geriatric Mac laptop that runs BarFly and pair of cheap walkman
headphones.

For the time I'm transcribing tunes, I'm working with rare sources
that I can't afford to have photocopied; the process required by the
library for old and delicate material involves intermediate microfilm,
and usually leads to a fairly bad result anyway, where things like
articulation marks often get lost.  (The NLS's charges, which are
among the lowest in Scotland for rare materials, are still high enough
that if I wanted everything I transcribed to be on xerox first, I could
easily incur a photocopy bill for a day's direct transcribing that was
more than I paid for my laptop).

So I've got no alternative but to get the most accurate transcription
possible on the spot.  The way BarFly works gives me a three-way check
on accuracy:

- does the structure make sense?
- does it sound right?
- does the score on the screen look exactly like what's on the page
  of the original in front of me?

The first is dealt with by the columnar layout I use; I'm mostly
doing things in four- and eight-bar phrases, and if something can't
be laid out to look like that in ABC source form, chances are that
something's gone wrong somewhere, either 250 years ago or in the
previous five minutes.  (BarFly also has error checking utilities
which on average picks up one miskeying every eight bars; I'd find
these manually anyway, but BarFly finds them quicker).  The second
is handled by BarFly's playback (helped by the ability to highlight
the note being played - this means you can move instantly from a
general feeling of "something's not quite right in that phrase" to
"typo on that note").  The third is supported by BarFly's instant
preview (no batch processing or invoking of GhostScript involved -
GhostScript would be unusably big and slow on that laptop anyway).

In this situation I don't have time to process the layout optimized
to show the structure of the tune into some other form before showing
it on the screen - and since I need to identify where any errors are
in my source, what's on the screen has to be directly derived from it.
So I *cannot* afford to have unnecessary built-in conflicts between
source readability and screen readability.  If I want a print-optimized
version by adding graphical tweaks, I'll do it at home; the laptop is
a lousy machine to use for them anyway.  What it is *very* good for is
interactivity, and it's the speed of switching between "structure",
"sound", and "score" modes of perception that makes for accuracy.  But
supporting this is a rather fragile characteristic of a language, which
many syntactic misfeatures could break, and people who haven't used
it in such an interactive environment won't easily spot the important
issues.

-
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
 * food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
--> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "abc" at this site, please <--


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[Phil Taylor]

Bernard Hill wrote:

>In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Webber
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>>Someone tell me that life really could be that simple!
>>Please!!
>
>Good thought, Dave. You had me excited for a minute.
>
>However users of abc2win may well (probably?) encode their abcs by hand
>with a text editor.

No, they type it into an entry window in abc2win.

The problem is that abc2win does not add its identifier after every
tune in the file, only the last one, so you've got to read the file to
the end to get it, even if it has thousands of tunes in it.

Also many tunes are posted to mailing lists by abc2win users, and
end up in compilation files which contain tunes from multiple
sources (and without their identifiers).

At least one BarFly user habitually adds exclamation marks at the ends of
lines to make them work with abc2win (BarFly just ignores them).

Some other characteristics of abc2win files:

*  They play at the wrong speed e.g.

R: reel
L: 1/8
Q: 100

Plays like a funeral march.

It's because abc2win's player program misinterprets the Q: field and
plays evrything three or four times faster than specified.  Users
just compensate by putting a smaller number in the Q: field without
bothering about what it actually means.

*  They contain large numbers of syntax errors (I don't think it
does any error checking at all, and accepts any old garbage as abc).

Neither of these is very useful for the purpose:-(

Phil Taylor



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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[John Chambers]

David Webber writes:
| From: "John Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| >... You have to buffer the entire tune in
| > memory,  and  examine  the  text  after  the tune to see if
| there's a
| > "%..." line that contains "abc2win".
|
| That in itself is no problem.  ABC is so concise that buffering a
| tune in memory is completely trivial these days.  In fact when I
| started writing my import filter, that was the first thing I did -
| read the whole file into a string with '\n' for newlines and stick a
| '\0' on the end.  Then one can start parsing it sensibly.

Right.  In perl, this is technically known as "slurping up"  a  file,
and  is  such a useful technique that the language has a conventional
idiom for doing it:

@data = ;

Perl programmers will appreciate the subtlety of this  command.   The
'@'  signals that "data" is to hold an array, and forces the input <>
operator to be in "array context".  So it delivers  the  entire  file
chopped  into  lines  according  to  whatever  you have said the line
separator is.  You could follow this with

if (@data =~ /abc2win/i) ...

to  check  whether  there  is  any  mention  of  abc2win  (with   any
capitalization) within the file.  Books on perl will include warnings
about the impact that such simple-looking commands may have if  there
are other processes competing for memory. But now that laptops with a
gigabyte of memory are  common,  this  can  be  a  lot  simpler  than
grovelling  through  the  data  with  lots  of loops and complex data
structures.

| The dual use of ! is still, as far as I can see, the worst conflict
| which has come up in existing files, and something therefore which
| urgently needs sorting out in a standard.

Actually, I'd say that if this is the worst we've done, we've done  a
pretty  good  job  of  it.  And, in my experience, it probably is the
worst incompatibility in abc tools.  So we can congratulate ourselves
on  being  such  a cooperative bunch.  Who'd have ever thought anyone
could say that about a gang of musicians?

| *Anything* which helps divine its purpose in existing files is
| useful at this stage.

Yup.  And note that, as someone else pointed out, sometimes the  only
clue  that  the music came out of abc2ps is the very last line of the
file.

Note also that if you downloaded the tune from my  Tune  Finder,  and
didn't  use  the  "GET"  link  that  returns the whole file, then you
didn't get the abc2win comment.  All the other links  return  just  a
single  tune  (except for the X:0 case).  I'm not sure that this is a
problem that's worth spending time on. The heuristic that I described
earlier  (scan  for  a second ! and see if the intervening text looks
like abc music or an annotation) seems to do a sufficiently good  job
that  it's  likely not worthwhile spotting the few possible remaining
pathological cases.

Maybe we should ask Jim Vint if he could move that comment  into  the
tune's  headers.  That would be useful.  For that matter, it could be
useful if all abc-generating programs identified themselves this way.
"% name version" at least.  I'd bet this could come in very handy for
a lot of reasons.

Of course, now that I've made that suggestion, I should add  this  to
my  tune-finder's tune-extraction script.  It already inserts the URL
and date just before the K:  line.  Maybe  it  should  also  identify
itself as the culprit that chopped the tune out of the file and added
an HTTP header to the beginning.


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[Bernard Hill]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Webber
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>
>From: "I. Oppenheim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
>>
>> > BTW, a year or so back, I had my tune finder's search bot  count
>the
>> > tunes  that  seemed  to come from abc2win (because of the !
>chars, or
>> > because they had a "% ... abc2win" comment). It came to between
>9 and
>> > 10%  of the tunes.
>>
>> Good to have some actual figures!
>
>If
>
>1. the above comment means that abc2win always writes its name in a
>comment
>
>and
>
>2. The files which use ! in the middle of a line as a line break are
>almost all written by abc2win
>
>then this is very encouraging news!
>
>The standard can be set to say that !...! is a special symbol, and
>developers can programs to read files on that basis UNLESS the
>header contains "abc2win" in which case it is a line break!
>
>Someone tell me that life really could be that simple!
>Please!!

Good thought, Dave. You had me excited for a minute.

However users of abc2win may well (probably?) encode their abcs by hand
with a text editor.


Bernard Hill
Braeburn Software
Author of Music Publisher system
Music Software written by musicians for musicians
http://www.braeburn.co.uk
Selkirk, Scotland

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[David Webber]

From: "John Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>... You have to buffer the entire tune in
> memory,  and  examine  the  text  after  the tune to see if
there's a
> "%..." line that contains "abc2win".

That in itself is no problem.  ABC is so concise that buffering a
tune in memory is completely trivial these days.  In fact when I
started writing my import filter, that was the first thing I did -
read the whole file into a string with '\n' for newlines and stick a
'\0' on the end.  Then one can start parsing it sensibly.

The dual use of ! is still, as far as I can see, the worst conflict
which has come up in existing files, and something therefore which
urgently needs sorting out in a standard.

*Anything* which helps divine its purpose in existing files is
useful at this stage.

Dave
David Webber
Author of MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band
http://www.northcheshire.org.uk


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[John Chambers]

David Webber writes:
| > On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
| > > BTW, a year or so back, I had my tune finder's search bot  count the
| > > tunes  that  seemed  to come from abc2win (because of the !  chars, or
| > > because they had a "% ... abc2win" comment). It came to between 9 and
| > > 10%  of the tunes.
|
| If
|
| 1. the above comment means that abc2win always writes its name in a
| comment
|
| and
|
| 2. The files which use ! in the middle of a line as a line break are
| almost all written by abc2win
|
| then this is very encouraging news!
|
| The standard can be set to say that !...! is a special symbol, and
| developers can programs to read files on that basis UNLESS the
| header contains "abc2win" in which case it is a line break!
|
| Someone tell me that life really could be that simple!
| Please!!

Um, sorry; it's not that simple.  Abc2win does write its  name  in  a
comment,  but  in the worst possible way:  It puts the comment at the
end of the tune, after a blank line.

Yes, it really is outside the tune.  And it really is after where you
want to know about it. There's nothing in the headers that identifies
a tune as coming from abc2win.  You have to buffer the entire tune in
memory,  and  examine  the  text  after  the tune to see if there's a
"%..." line that contains "abc2win".

Sorry 'bout dat.  There's nothing I can do to fix it.

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[David Webber]

From: "Steve Mansfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Sorry David, no such luck. abc2Win only appears in the *file*
footer,
> like so...

Ah well, I knew it couldn't *really* be so simple - but that is at
least something - on can parse for "abc2win" and assume things if it
is found, even if one can't assume anything if it is not :-(

Dave
David Webber
Author of MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band
http://www.northcheshire.org.uk

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[Steve Mansfield]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Webber 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
The standard can be set to say that !...! is a special symbol, and
developers can programs to read files on that basis UNLESS the
header contains "abc2win" in which case it is a line break!
Someone tell me that life really could be that simple!
Please!!
CLONK!

Sorry David, no such luck. abc2Win only appears in the *file* footer, 
like so

% Output from ABC2Win  Version 2.1 k preview on 05/07/2003

not the individual *tune* headers within that file. So if a file is 
created and only ever edited in abc2Win and posted to the Net as a 
complete file, then that construct will be at the bottom of the file. A 
tune created in abc2Win and then copied into an email, or a tune 
extracted from a file by JC's tune finder, almost certainly *won't* have 
any evidence in it of creation in abc2Win.

--
Steve Mansfield
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lesession.co.uk - abc music notation tutorial,
  the uk.music.folk newsgroup FAQ, and other goodies


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Re: [abcusers] abc2win

[Steve Mansfield]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
As far as I could check, the source code of abc2win has
not been released. So how could we do that?
Well, you could try being nice to Jim Vint and inviting him to join in the
standards process.
Having first given him a Guantanamo Bay-style brainwash to get him to 
forget all the ordure that's been thrown his way over the years over the 
! issue, I presume :-)

--
Steve Mansfield
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lesession.co.uk - abc music notation tutorial,
  the uk.music.folk newsgroup FAQ, and other goodies


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[abcusers] abc2win and ! line breaks.

[David Webber]

From: "I. Oppenheim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
>
> > BTW, a year or so back, I had my tune finder's search bot  count
the
> > tunes  that  seemed  to come from abc2win (because of the !
chars, or
> > because they had a "% ... abc2win" comment). It came to between
9 and
> > 10%  of the tunes.
>
> Good to have some actual figures!

If

1. the above comment means that abc2win always writes its name in a
comment

and

2. The files which use ! in the middle of a line as a line break are
almost all written by abc2win

then this is very encouraging news!

The standard can be set to say that !...! is a special symbol, and
developers can programs to read files on that basis UNLESS the
header contains "abc2win" in which case it is a line break!

Someone tell me that life really could be that simple!
Please!!

Dave
David Webber
Author of MOZART the music processor for Windows -
http://www.mozart.co.uk
Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band
http://www.northcheshire.org.uk

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Re: [abcusers] abc2win

[Bryancreer]

Irwin Oppenheim wrote -

>As far as I could check, the source code of abc2win has
>not been released. So how could we do that?

Well, you could try being nice to Jim Vint and inviting him to join in the 
standards process.

Bryan Creer

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[abcusers] abc2win

[I. Oppenheim]

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:

> BTW, a year or so back, I had my tune finder's search bot  count  the
> tunes  that  seemed  to come from abc2win (because of the ! chars, or
> because they had a "% ... abc2win" comment). It came to between 9 and
> 10%  of the tunes.

Good to have some actual figures!

> The best way would be to produce a new abc2win that
> does the conversion automatically. Anyone want the
> job? Maybe I should revive that code and do another
> count ...

As far as I could check, the source code of abc2win has
not been released. So how could we do that?


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
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Re: [abcusers] ABC2WIN, AbcMus

[Phil Taylor]

>Bruce Olson wrote:
>>
>> My ABC2WIN has a nice little button on the tool bar that plays
>> A=440 Hz (verified on a 2 channel oscilloscope with 1 KHz reference
>> square wave on the 2nd channel). Why does my ABC2WIN play that A in a
>> tune at 880 Hz, (and all other notes) an octave too high?
>>
>> Bruce Olson
>>
>
>Henrik Norbeck's ABCMUS plays the correct frequencies (time the
>highest peaks of the triple sawtooth waveform). Also timing is much
>better than one can do with BASICS Sound command (at least the way
>I've been using it). I presume that everyone knows that BASICs Sound
>command puts a square wave into the computer's speaker.

You'll have to ask Jim Vint for a definitive answer on this, but one
possible explanation is that the player in abc2win is very basic,
and just plays through the PC's internal speaker.  It does not attempt
to sound like any real musical instrument.  The internal speaker in
most PCs is tiny, and cannot reproduce low frequencies, so it makes
sense to play the tunes an octave higher than written so that the low
notes remain audible.  It really makes no musical difference; if you
play a tune on a D whistle you are playing an octave higher than if you
play on a D flute, but it's still the same tune.  AbcMus, on the other
hand is a dedicated player program which plays through speakers attached
to the sound card and uses real instrument sounds, so it can (must) use
the correct pitch for the instrument selected.

A more serious difference between the two programs lies in their
interpretation of the tempo (Q:) field.  Play a reel with Q:400 on
both programs and compare the results.  In abcMus it plays at a brisk
dancing speed, while in PlayQabc it goes like a rocket.  If you calculate
how long the tune should take to play you will find that abcMus is
correct.

>[I'm going to try faking BASICs Sound command into giving the right
>timing. Going by the book doesn't work very well.]

Ho ho!  Isn't sound programming fun?

Phil Taylor


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Re: [abcusers] ABC2WIN, AbcMus

[Bruce Olson]

John Walsh wrote:
> 
> >
> > Bruce Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > My ABC2WIN has a nice little button on the tool bar that plays
> > > A=440 Hz (verified on a 2 channel oscilloscope with 1 KHz reference
> > > square wave on the 2nd channel). Why does my ABC2WIN play that A in a
> > > tune at 880 Hz, (and all other notes) an octave too high?
> > >
> > > Bruce Olson
> > >
> >
> > Henrik Norbeck's ABCMUS plays the correct frequencies (time the
> > highest peaks of the triple sawtooth waveform). Also timing is much
> > better than one can do with BASICS Sound command (at least the way
> > I've been using it). I presume that everyone knows that BASICs Sound
> > command puts a square wave into the computer's speaker.
> >
> > [I'm going to try faking BASICs Sound command into giving the right
> > timing. Going by the book doesn't work very well.]
> >
> > Bruce Olson
> >
> 
> It could have something to do with the operating system, too.  I
> recently changed computers, copied abcmus from windows 95 to a win 2000
> partition, and found that it now played at 1/6 speed.  Identical program,
> bit for bit.  Correct pitch, but six times slower.  I contacted Henrik
> Norbeck, the author of abcmus, who said he'd run into it elsewhere with
> other versions of NT, and the fix was simply to set the speed for direct
> midi playback to 600%.  Works fine... (!!!)
> 
> Cheers,
> John Walsh
> 
> To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: 
>http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

My player programed in True Basic, True Basic system operated and
compiled versions, and Norbeck's AbcMus, all play frequencies correctly
on my computer. ABC2WIN on my computer plays them an octave high.

Bruce Olson

-- 
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click 
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Re: [abcusers] ABC2WIN, AbcMus

[John Walsh]

> 
> Bruce Olson wrote:
> > 
> > My ABC2WIN has a nice little button on the tool bar that plays
> > A=440 Hz (verified on a 2 channel oscilloscope with 1 KHz reference
> > square wave on the 2nd channel). Why does my ABC2WIN play that A in a
> > tune at 880 Hz, (and all other notes) an octave too high?
> > 
> > Bruce Olson
> >
> 
> Henrik Norbeck's ABCMUS plays the correct frequencies (time the
> highest peaks of the triple sawtooth waveform). Also timing is much
> better than one can do with BASICS Sound command (at least the way 
> I've been using it). I presume that everyone knows that BASICs Sound 
> command puts a square wave into the computer's speaker.
> 
> [I'm going to try faking BASICs Sound command into giving the right 
> timing. Going by the book doesn't work very well.]
> 
> Bruce Olson
> 



It could have something to do with the operating system, too.  I
recently changed computers, copied abcmus from windows 95 to a win 2000
partition, and found that it now played at 1/6 speed.  Identical program,
bit for bit.  Correct pitch, but six times slower.  I contacted Henrik
Norbeck, the author of abcmus, who said he'd run into it elsewhere with
other versions of NT, and the fix was simply to set the speed for direct
midi playback to 600%.  Works fine... (!!!)

Cheers,
John Walsh


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[abcusers] ABC2WIN, AbcMus

[Bruce Olson]

Bruce Olson wrote:
> 
> My ABC2WIN has a nice little button on the tool bar that plays
> A=440 Hz (verified on a 2 channel oscilloscope with 1 KHz reference
> square wave on the 2nd channel). Why does my ABC2WIN play that A in a
> tune at 880 Hz, (and all other notes) an octave too high?
> 
> Bruce Olson
>

Henrik Norbeck's ABCMUS plays the correct frequencies (time the
highest peaks of the triple sawtooth waveform). Also timing is much
better than one can do with BASICS Sound command (at least the way 
I've been using it). I presume that everyone knows that BASICs Sound 
command puts a square wave into the computer's speaker.

[I'm going to try faking BASICs Sound command into giving the right 
timing. Going by the book doesn't work very well.]

Bruce Olson

-- 
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click 
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