[dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
I have heard some folks saying that they code their own forms. After working with the class designer I feel that it is even better than VFP. I can put together a great form in a short period of time and the property sheet, object view, code editor are better than VFP by a long shot (in my opinion of course - I've only been working with FoxPro since 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. Just a question. TIA -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b57b37a.40...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I have heard some folks saying that they code their own forms. After > working with the class designer I feel that it is even better than VFP. > I can put together a great form in a short period of time and the > property sheet, object view, code editor are better than VFP by a long > shot (in my opinion of course - I've only been working with FoxPro since > 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like > to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. Dabo had been around for several years before I got the Class Designer to the point where it was reliable enough for real production use. In the meantime, coding your UIs by hand was the only option, and thanks to Python's ability to quickly run your code, is almost as fast to do in the hands of a good coder. I still remember in the Fox 2.x days that there were devs who shunned the whole .scx stuff, and coded all their forms in PRGs. It was simply that that's the way they learned to do it, and they got very good at it, so they saw no reason to change. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/24fb6dc8-695b-49c0-b270-7af915767...@leafe.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jan 20, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > >> I have heard some folks saying that they code their own forms. After >> working with the class designer I feel that it is even better than VFP. >> I can put together a great form in a short period of time and the >> property sheet, object view, code editor are better than VFP by a long >> shot (in my opinion of course - I've only been working with FoxPro since >> 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like >> to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. > > Dabo had been around for several years before I got the Class Designer > to the point where it was reliable enough for real production use. In the > meantime, coding your UIs by hand was the only option, and thanks to Python's > ability to quickly run your code, is almost as fast to do in the hands of a > good coder. > > I still remember in the Fox 2.x days that there were devs who shunned > the whole .scx stuff, and coded all their forms in PRGs. It was simply that > that's the way they learned to do it, and they got very good at it, so they > saw no reason to change. > > > -- Ed Leafe > Ed: I was one of those guys. Maybe that's why I asked the question. I am totally impressed with the job you guys have done. The class designer is a powerful, reliable and intuitive tool to use. We won't even mention Python here!!! I am about to launch a major application using Dabo and I feel confident I can use Dabo instead of VFP with equivalent results. I can use VFP9 for familiarity, but I want to use Dabo. Thank you for your dedication to this great project! Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b57ca0d.1070...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Wednesday 20 January 2010 05:52:58 pm Jeff Johnson wrote: > I have heard some folks saying that they code their own forms. After > working with the class designer I feel that it is even better than VFP. > I can put together a great form in a short period of time and the > property sheet, object view, code editor are better than VFP by a long > shot (in my opinion of course - I've only been working with FoxPro since > 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like > to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. > > Just a question. > > TIA Today there is not much of a reason to hand code a form. That said, I still hand code my forms. I find that it offers flexibility that the ClassDesigner does not. Johnf ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/201001201926.16475.jo...@jfcomputer.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 22:29, Jeff Johnson wrote: > Ed: I was one of those guys. Maybe that's why I asked the question. I > am totally impressed with the job you guys have done. The class > designer is a powerful, reliable and intuitive tool to use. We won't > even mention Python here!!! I am about to launch a major application > using Dabo and I feel confident I can use Dabo instead of VFP with > equivalent results. I can use VFP9 for familiarity, but I want to use > Dabo. > Jeff, Its funny that you mention reliability because it's the reason why I do not use the ClassDesigner. I have run into issues and while it has gotten so much better since I started using Dabo, I find I can hand code a form just as fast on a reliable text editor. I have lost changes and had trouble making changes to the designer code more times than I care to count. Maybe this is because I use a large set of custom controls, many with dynamic display properties. Either way, I use all of the other xml standards dabo has (connection, menu, and report), just not the class designer. Ed has done a tremendous amount of work to it and I like what I see so far, it's just not there enough for my liking. Regards, Nate --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4bef56241001201958l1250a3f6j21e66d413edab...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
I code everything Python by hand and just don't like GUI tools for development work – at the moment I'm working on a Delphi application for a customer, and I hate it ;-) I get accustomed to Delphi's GUI tools, though, but often switch to the code view of forms, e.g. I can use "search & replace" there. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to port it to Python, I'd need half of the time and could make it much better. For my next dabo App I might try the Designer, but since I most often just need a simple GUI for some admin script, my hand-coded standard interface (one tab each for Action, Settings and Log) does the job without me learning another tool. (BTW I *can* use vi, but only do if I must, e.g. via ssh; I prefer a good IDE, so I'm not the "evil GUI" guy ;-) Greetlings, Hraban ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/954f6001210040rd183854ucd7ecef35c171...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Użytkownik Jeff Johnson napisał:
> 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like
> to know why some of you code your own forms by hand.
>
Because there are still plenty of bugs in it, e.g.:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:\Python25\lib\site-packages\dabo\ui\uiwx\dFormMixin.py", line
157, in __onWxClose
self.raiseEvent(dEvents.Close, evt)
File "C:\Python25\lib\site-packages\dabo\ui\uiwx\dPemMixin.py", line
959, in raiseEvent
super(dPemMixin, self).raiseEvent(eventClass, nativeEvent, *args,
**kwargs)
File "C:\Python25\lib\site-packages\dabo\lib\eventMixin.py", line 93,
in raiseEvent
bindingFunction(event)
File "C:\Python25\lib\site-packages\dabo\ui\uiwx\dFormMixin.py", line
220, in __onClose
if self._beforeClose(evt) == False:
File "C:\Python25\lib\site-packages\dabo\ui\uiwx\dForm.py", line 86,
in _beforeClose
ret = super(BaseForm, self)._beforeClose(evt)
File "C:\Python25\lib\site-packages\dabo\ui\uiwx\dFormMixin.py", line
389, in _beforeClose
ret = self.beforeClose(evt)
File "c:\SVN\dabodev\ide\ClassDesignerFormMixin.py", line 189, in
beforeClose
curr = self._getSavedState()
File "c:\SVN\dabodev\ide\ClassDesignerFormMixin.py", line 119, in
_getSavedState
ret = self.getClassDesignerDict(obj, propsToExclude=("Top", "Left"))
File "c:\SVN\dabodev\ide\ClassDesignerFormMixin.py", line 671, in
getClassDesignerDict
ret = obj.getDesignerDict(classID=seed, propsToExclude=propsToExclude)
File "c:\SVN\dabodev\ide\ClassDesignerComponents.py", line 49, in
getDesignerDict
if os.path.exists(clsPath):
File "C:\Python25\lib\ntpath.py", line 255, in exists
st = os.stat(path)
TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need string or buffer, NoneType found
Most important reason is that CD doesn't support inheritance.
Of course I can create custom controls but it is still simple
copy and paste of code.
For small few form only application it's perfect tool.
But for larger, with many controls it fails.
--
Regards
Jacek Kałucki
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Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
2010/1/21 Jacek Kałucki > Użytkownik Jeff Johnson napisał: > > 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like > > to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. > > > > Mostly because of the level of control. It allows dynamic and conditional creation of controls. I guess like most people, what I learned was handcoding. Dabo's uiAPI is so consistent (kudos to Ed and Paul) that it also becomes really easy to just handcode. On the other hand you can mix cdxml sections with handcoded . I use this approach frequently for panel reuse and for coding small record edit dialogs. Miguel --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/a19730801001210208xfe345bct4c507021c8478...@mail.gmail.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
John wrote: > On Wednesday 20 January 2010 05:52:58 pm Jeff Johnson wrote: >> I have heard some folks saying that they code their own forms. After >> working with the class designer I feel that it is even better than VFP. >> I can put together a great form in a short period of time and the >> property sheet, object view, code editor are better than VFP by a long >> shot (in my opinion of course - I've only been working with FoxPro since >> 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like >> to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. >> >> Just a question. >> >> TIA > > Today there is not much of a reason to hand code a form. That said, I still > hand code my forms. I find that it offers flexibility that the ClassDesigner > does not. > > Johnf John: Can you give me some examples of the flexibility you mentioned? -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b5865d9.10...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Thursday 21 January 2010 06:34:01 am Jeff Johnson wrote: > John wrote: > > On Wednesday 20 January 2010 05:52:58 pm Jeff Johnson wrote: > >> I have heard some folks saying that they code their own forms. After > >> working with the class designer I feel that it is even better than VFP. > >> I can put together a great form in a short period of time and the > >> property sheet, object view, code editor are better than VFP by a long > >> shot (in my opinion of course - I've only been working with FoxPro since > >> 91). The sizers make for a very professional form, too. I would like > >> to know why some of you code your own forms by hand. > >> > >> Just a question. > >> > >> TIA > > > > Today there is not much of a reason to hand code a form. That said, I > > still hand code my forms. I find that it offers flexibility that the > > ClassDesigner does not. > > > > Johnf > > John: Can you give me some examples of the flexibility you mentioned? Sure, I find myself using many custom controls and needing custom layouts. And then there are the client "change orders" - I find it difficult to add controls and move others around using ClassDesigner. Also I find it does not take very long to hand code forms. Believe me when I say I never would have guessed I would be hand coding forms after using the VFP designer for the last 10 years. I also don't like hand editing XML - which is what ClassDesigner and ReportDesigner produce. That said, I use ClassDesigner to create my maintenance forms. I also use ClassDesigner to write all my bizobjs. ClassDesigner allows you to create the bizobj class code when you "add controls from data environment". I then use the bizobj ClassDesigner produces (real python/Dabo code and not XML) on my forms. Johnf ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/201001210730.30983.jo...@jfcomputer.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Thursday 21 January 2010 01:24:23 am Jacek Kałucki wrote: > File "c:\SVN\dabodev\ide\ClassDesignerComponents.py", line 49, in > getDesignerDict > if os.path.exists(clsPath): > File "C:\Python25\lib\ntpath.py", line 255, in exists > st = os.stat(path) > TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need string or buffer, NoneType found I'm not sure I'd call the traceback a ClassDesigner bug. Almost all the path issues that have been reported turn out to be user errors - at least that's what I recall. Such as the user does not understand the Dabo structure or the user saves the cdxml file completely out of the project path. In an effort to catch the user path errors Ed has attempted to code around many of the issues of "pathing" and that is not easy. It's much easier to have the user save the file correctly. I for one, have not had any issue with path's using ClassDesigner. What can be said about ClassDesigner is: It may be missing a property/attrib because no one has noticed it missing or reported it missing. It crashes - yes. But in fairness - I have never reported the crashes - so how can Ed fix it. I know Nate has had many crashes but I don't recall Nate reporting the crashes either. Why because I (and I be Nate) can't repeat the crash. ReportDesigner crashes too. And I noticed that Larry has taken the time to report the bugs and they get fixed. I don't see much reported to Ed about ClassDesigner. Johnf ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/201001210802.49604.jo...@jfcomputer.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
John wrote: >> John: Can you give me some examples of the flexibility you mentioned? > > Sure, I find myself using many custom controls and needing custom layouts. > And then there are the client "change orders" - I find it difficult to add > controls and move others around using ClassDesigner. Also I find it does > not take very long to hand code forms. Believe me when I say I never would > have guessed I would be hand coding forms after using the VFP designer for > the last 10 years. I also don't like hand editing XML - which is what > ClassDesigner and ReportDesigner produce. > > That said, I use ClassDesigner to create my maintenance forms. I also use > ClassDesigner to write all my bizobjs. ClassDesigner allows you to create > the bizobj class code when you "add controls from data environment". I then > use the bizobj ClassDesigner produces (real python/Dabo code and not XML) on > my forms. > > Johnf I haven't looked into this deeply, but my first glance is that it is not easy to take a cdxml form and convert it to a "hand" coded form. Kind of like the class designer in FoxPro. You can view an scx form and view code and save it as a prg. I could imagine creating a form with the class designer and then saving it in coded format for adjustments and inheritance. -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b588351.7020...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I haven't looked into this deeply, but my first glance is that it is not > easy to take a cdxml form and convert it to a "hand" coded form. That was never the design goal for the Class Designer. The two are not interchangeable. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/5f04af03-a1d1-431a-a69f-9a414ef20...@leafe.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
John wrote: > I'm not sure I'd call the traceback a ClassDesigner bug. Almost all the path > issues that have been reported turn out to be user errors - at least that's > what I recall. Such as the user does not understand the Dabo structure or > the user saves the cdxml file completely out of the project path. In an > effort to catch the user path errors Ed has attempted to code around many of > the issues of "pathing" and that is not easy. It's much easier to have the > user save the file correctly. > > I for one, have not had any issue with path's using ClassDesigner. > > What can be said about ClassDesigner is: > It may be missing a property/attrib because no one has noticed it missing or > reported it missing. It crashes - yes. But in fairness - I have never > reported the crashes - so how can Ed fix it. I know Nate has had many > crashes but I don't recall Nate reporting the crashes either. Why because I > (and I be Nate) can't repeat the crash. > > ReportDesigner crashes too. And I noticed that Larry has taken the time to > report the bugs and they get fixed. I don't see much reported to Ed about > ClassDesigner All of the bugs that I ran across when I was evaluating it heavily I ended up fixing. However, I haven't used it for a good 2 years, so I can't really report any recent bugs. Regards, Nate ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b5883ce.9050...@gmail.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
-Original Message- From: Ed Leafe To: Dabo Users list Sent: Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I haven't looked into this deeply, but my first glance is that it is not easy to take a cdxml form and convert it to a "hand" coded form. That was never the design goal for the Class Designer. The two are not nterchangeable. - Ed Leafe ut how does the cdxml file "run" in dabo? It must be converted into python code at some point, right? Couldn't we see that? Jonathan Poor --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/8cc68d54cc8bed3-93bc-...@webmail-d052.sysops.aol.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Jan 21, 2010, at 12:21 PM, jpoorra...@aol.com wrote: > That was never the design goal for the Class Designer. The two are not > nterchangeable. > > - Ed Leafe > > ut how does the cdxml file "run" in dabo? It must be converted into python > code at some point, right? Couldn't we see that? Sure, but it would probably be the anti-example for how to code a UI. To see it go to dabo/lib/DesignerXMLConverter.py, and uncomment line #76. Run your design, and a file named 'CLASSTEXT.py' will be created in the current directory. Open that in a text editor, and you'll see the generated code. But please don't use that as an example! -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/3bf91a84-955e-4bf9-a7e5-e3989253a...@leafe.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > >> I haven't looked into this deeply, but my first glance is that it is not >> easy to take a cdxml form and convert it to a "hand" coded form. > > > That was never the design goal for the Class Designer. The two are not > interchangeable. > > > -- Ed Leafe > I figured as much, but as a FoxPro guy the class designer is awesome. Thanks again for all of your excellent work! -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b589e2d.1040...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Użytkownik John napisał: > I'm not sure I'd call the traceback a ClassDesigner bug. Almost all the path > issues that have been reported turn out to be user errors - at least that's > what I recall. Such as the user does not understand the Dabo structure or > the user saves the cdxml file completely out of the project path. In an > effort to catch the user path errors Ed has attempted to code around many of > the issues of "pathing" and that is not easy. It's much easier to have the > user save the file correctly. > > I for one, have not had any issue with path's using ClassDesigner. > > What can be said about ClassDesigner is: > It may be missing a property/attrib because no one has noticed it missing or > reported it missing. It crashes - yes. But in fairness - I have never > reported the crashes - so how can Ed fix it. I know Nate has had many > crashes but I don't recall Nate reporting the crashes either. Why because I > (and I be Nate) can't repeat the crash. > > ReportDesigner crashes too. And I noticed that Larry has taken the time to > report the bugs and they get fixed. I don't see much reported to Ed about > ClassDesigner. > I always start CD from root path of my project and save class always inside project root, mostly in "ui" directory. Point is that these errors unpredictable. They appears mostly when I open few classes for editing simultaneously. I just reopen class and error doesn't happen again. But it's frustrating when result of almost an hour of work can't be saved :( -- Regards Jacek Kałucki ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b58a88f.4000...@rz.onet.pl
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > I figured as much, but as a FoxPro guy the class designer is awesome. For most people who develop desktop UIs, a WYSIWYG tool is essential; we'll never get Dabo into general acceptance without a good one. A proper IDE that has the concept of a 'project' is what is needed; with that, all of the pathing issues that Jacek brings up would be moot, as the project would handle relative pathing instead of us having to guess where files are. Unfortunately, it's sort of a Catch-22: you need a large user base to attract the developers to make this happen, while you can't get a large user base until it happens. While we've gotten some external help, it's mostly been things that are specific to that contributor's needs, and not general support for the tool. One of the best things about the Class Designer is that it is a great example of what you can build with Dabo: it's a 100% Dabo app! I stuck to that principle, and whenever I found something that was difficult to do, I improved the underlying framework, figuring that it would make it easier for other developers, too. If I hadn't been without work for most of 2005, the Class Designer would never have been developed. I would need a similar long stretch of uninterrupted focus to create the IDE, but unfortunately (well, actually, fortunately!) I'm much too busy with work these days to spend the time that's needed to get something like that done. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/d9b7c7ff-51df-4ef7-98b3-7695a2198...@leafe.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
When we started Dabo, I already had projects on my plate for which I needed the library. So initial coding of the library was refactoring pieces of this and that I'd saved elsewhere for specific needs. The class designer as you see it now is at least the second complete rewrite, and was built iteratively over the years. I simply couldn't ever spend the needed time to test the class designer on my real projects, because I couldn't afford to risk derailing my projects to do the in-depth testing needed. The best test is to actually use the software for your day-to-day needs. Also, I feel at home with the toolkit I've developed over the years, and my code/test cycle is very fast. I never have a .py file open without saving for more than a few minutes, and vim keeps a backup file around in case my computer crashes or something. I've never lost code, my development cycle is fast and comfortable, I don't have to wonder if I'll ever need to hand-edit XML, so why switch? My dev kit is basically a bunch of separate terminal windows open, vim, and frequent commits to subversion. Every now and then I use a debugger or the profiler, but usually I know exactly where the problem is already (because I only just caused it), and when I'm confused I find it easy and quick to sprinkle print statements to narrow down the problem. I always make test code at the bottom of my UI files, so when I'm in the layout process I can quickly run the form/panel/whatever without loading the whole app. Laying out a UI with vim this way probably involves a couple hundred edit/run cycles for even the simplest form, but I'm cool with it and I really don't feel that my tools slow me down too much in the long run, because code is explicit. copy/paste boilerplate is one thing I do to avoid having to type boring sizer code over and over. Paul ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b58aec4.9050...@ulmcnett.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:45 PM, Paul McNett wrote: > Also, I feel at home with the toolkit I've developed over the years, and my > code/test > cycle is very fast. I never have a .py file open without saving for more than > a few > minutes, and vim keeps a backup file around in case my computer crashes or > something. > I've never lost code, my development cycle is fast and comfortable, I don't > have to > wonder if I'll ever need to hand-edit XML, so why switch? I don't think that anyone wants to convince you to switch. I'm simply saying that the vast majority of potential Dabo developers are used to developing their GUIs with WYSIWYG tools, and unless we have such a robust tool, we're asking *them* to switch. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/61b9add2-bd55-4761-8def-1f190062e...@leafe.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jan 21, 2010, at 1:34 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote: > >> I figured as much, but as a FoxPro guy the class designer is awesome. > > > For most people who develop desktop UIs, a WYSIWYG tool is essential; > we'll never get Dabo into general acceptance without a good one. A proper IDE > that has the concept of a 'project' is what is needed; with that, all of the > pathing issues that Jacek brings up would be moot, as the project would > handle relative pathing instead of us having to guess where files are. > > Unfortunately, it's sort of a Catch-22: you need a large user base to > attract the developers to make this happen, while you can't get a large user > base until it happens. While we've gotten some external help, it's mostly > been things that are specific to that contributor's needs, and not general > support for the tool. > > One of the best things about the Class Designer is that it is a great > example of what you can build with Dabo: it's a 100% Dabo app! I stuck to > that principle, and whenever I found something that was difficult to do, I > improved the underlying framework, figuring that it would make it easier for > other developers, too. > > If I hadn't been without work for most of 2005, the Class Designer > would never have been developed. I would need a similar long stretch of > uninterrupted focus to create the IDE, but unfortunately (well, actually, > fortunately!) I'm much too busy with work these days to spend the time that's > needed to get something like that done. > > > -- Ed Leafe > > > Ed: There are a lot of nice things about the class designer! The property sheet for one. Also the way you can do the tree view of your objects and double click on the object. Also, running the form. There are so many things I like about the class designer I can't think of them all right now. I am sure VFP guys will take to it fine. Especially with guys like me advertising. ;^) -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b58bfb1.8000...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:45 PM, Paul McNett wrote: > >> Also, I feel at home with the toolkit I've developed over the years, and my >> code/test >> cycle is very fast. I never have a .py file open without saving for more >> than a few >> minutes, and vim keeps a backup file around in case my computer crashes or >> something. >> I've never lost code, my development cycle is fast and comfortable, I don't >> have to >> wonder if I'll ever need to hand-edit XML, so why switch? > > > I don't think that anyone wants to convince you to switch. I'm simply > saying that the vast majority of potential Dabo developers are used to > developing their GUIs with WYSIWYG tools, and unless we have such a robust > tool, we're asking *them* to switch. > > > -- Ed Leafe > > > > ___ > Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com > Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users > Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users > This message: > http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/61b9add2-bd55-4761-8def-1f190062e...@leafe.com > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2636 - Release Date: 01/21/10 > 07:34:00 > Ed & Paul: I really think that the VFP folks will love the class designer. It is "so" VFP! I am maybe a little bit different then the norm. I have a UI and then I do some things that the UI won't necessarily support. I really like the class designer and that is what I will use. I will hand code forms that have unique code in them. -- Jeff Jeff Johnson j...@dcsoftware.com Phoenix Python User Group - sunpigg...@googlegroups.com ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b58c10a.4030...@dcsoftware.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Ed Leafe wrote: > On Jan 21, 2010, at 2:45 PM, Paul McNett wrote: > >> Also, I feel at home with the toolkit I've developed over the years, and my >> code/test >> cycle is very fast. I never have a .py file open without saving for more >> than a few >> minutes, and vim keeps a backup file around in case my computer crashes or >> something. >> I've never lost code, my development cycle is fast and comfortable, I don't >> have to >> wonder if I'll ever need to hand-edit XML, so why switch? > > > I don't think that anyone wants to convince you to switch. I'm simply > saying that the vast majority of potential Dabo developers are used to > developing their GUIs with WYSIWYG tools, and unless we have such a robust > tool, we're asking *them* to switch. Absolutely correct. It is definitely a Catch-22. You and I have both gotten much busier since we started Dabo. Paul ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b58c405.6020...@ulmcnett.com
Re: [dabo-users] cdxml vs. coding
Jeff Johnson wrote: > Ed & Paul: I really think that the VFP folks will love the class > designer. It is "so" VFP! I am maybe a little bit different then the > norm. I have a UI and then I do some things that the UI won't > necessarily support. I really like the class designer and that is what > I will use. I will hand code forms that have unique code in them. I think that is a very sane approach. Paul ___ Post Messages to: Dabo-users@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/dabo-users Searchable Archives: http://leafe.com/archives/search/dabo-users This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/4b58c44c.3080...@ulmcnett.com
