Re: Software piracy

[Concetta Z]

I know this discussion has veered off this, but here it is anyway
(sorry, I'm on digest)


It is permisible by the eBay rules, to contact you about a similar
item being auctioned in eBay.
It is NOT permisible to contact you to offer you a similar item
by-passing eBay, (a private sale).

Spam is not permitted on eBay.
Some examples of spam include:
• 	Unsolicited email offers to potential buyers for items that are the 
same or similar to items a member is bidding on or has bid on in the 
past

[it is also transaction interference, a reportable violation]


It is permisible to sell a computer with the OS only. The rules do
not specify that the OS should be the original one for the computer.
It is NOT permisible to include other software, like M$ Office, Adobe
Photoshop, etc., if you advertise it, your auction will be cancelled,
even if you include the "erase disk" clause.

The following are examples of items that may not be listed on eBay:
•   "Backup" or "archival" copies of software programs
• 	Software loaded onto a hard drive that is not being sold with the 
original media (disks, manuals, etc.)



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Re: Software piracy

[Stanton Mitrany]

I believe the point of leaving an operable OS on a used computer offered for
sale is that the machine is demonstrably working, and that it was when
shipped by the seller. Otherwise there'd be no standard of whether what was
sold to any of us was in operable condition when we bought it. This way,
when we're guaranteed "No DOA" there's a common reference point between the
buyer and the seller. Otherwise, there'd be a grey area opened up that the
new owner screwed something up in attempting to install an operating system
of choice, and many more unwarranted returns of perfectly usable machines
would arrive back on the doorsteps of honorable, innocent and well-meaning
sellers.

Also, I'd be surprised if many, indeed if any of us who use this list don't
already own our own copies of usable operating systems to install in any
Macs we buy used. Without an installed OS when shipped, we'd have no way of
detecting a lemon when we inspect our purchase.

Just my thoughts,
stanton


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Re: Software Piracy

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 10/12/05 14:11, Peter Webster at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> This is one of the dumbest threads ever to circulate. You all aren't
> ever going to agree. What is the point?

Yes, I agree.

Folks, please, DROP THAT THREAD. I don't think it's going anywhere. But you
can continue to argue off-list.

-Laurent.
List nanny.
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behind-the-scenes magic and PD software written since 1980 or so. See also
bang path, domainist. 2. More loosely, any network address reachable through
Internet; this includes bang path addresses and some internal corporate and
government networks.



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Re: Software Piracy

[Caleb Cupples]

On Saturday, Dec 10, 2005, at 13:11 America/Chicago, Peter Webster 
wrote:


This is one of the dumbest threads ever to circulate. You all aren't 
ever going to agree. What is the point?


I do agree. My opinion is that it depends on the version of the OS. If 
it's Panther or Tiger, yes, I do agree that they should include the 
discs if it's not the stock OS, but if it's Jaguar, Puma, or even back 
in the OS 8-9 days, no I don't think it's piracy. People lose discs, 
it's a fact of life. I have a copy of SuSE Linux that I still can't 
find, and I've got a full licence for it. Up until recently, I couldn't 
find the OS 7.1 disks I got way back in the olden days. That's just my 
$0.02, but I'm not an expert on copyright law, or any other law. FYI, I 
bought my Lombard with OS X Jaguar on it, and it didn't have the discs. 
I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not going back to OS 8.5, even 
though I have the original recovery disc.


C. Cupples,
Mac Fanatic at Large
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190 - OS 7.5.3


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Re: Software Piracy

[Peter Webster]

This is one of the dumbest threads ever to circulate. You all aren't  
ever going to agree. What is the point?


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Re: Software Piracy

[darm0k]

At 10:40 AM -0500 12/10/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:

Ok, just because I am not deemed "authorized" then it is legal and ok.
So it's legal as long as eBay says it is and nobody gets caught. And
as long as eBay can make money on it.

eBay just covers their collective butts by what they do. The law is
the law and eBay is not a lawmaker, just a policy maker who claims to
do the proper thing but hides behind a disclaimer and having a user
agreement accepted.

I can find numerous violations of software copyright  laws all day
long on eBay. I confess it would be very difficult for eBay to
eliminate this problem but they ignore it and make money on it.


You can always find people speeding on highways.  That doesn't make 
it legal.  It simply means that people can be jerks and taxpayers 
(customers) aren't willing to pay for police enough to monitor every 
car 24/7.


eBay is the same situation.  *shrug*

How would you have them handle it?  Be constructive now.  Keep in 
mind that your "solution" has to be reasonable - it has to leave them 
with a viable business plan...


- Dan.

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Re: Software Piracy

[Krow Magnum]

On 12/10/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 11:22 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:
> >On 12/9/05, macnifico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>It is permisible to sell a computer with the OS only. The rules do
> >>not specify that the OS should be the original one for the computer.
> >
> >Where did you find that ? The original OS is a license issue, not an
> >ebay issue. If the OS license is not being sold it is a copyright
> >violation.
>
> Pardon?
>
> All Macs are licensed for their original OS.  Period.  You cannot
> sell them without the license going with it.

The License goes with the OS. The OS is bundled with the Mac.
And you can if you keep the OS install CD that came with it. It's a
lot easier to pirate an OS from a CD than from a computer.

>
> Most PCs are licensed for their original copy of Windows.  Likewise,
> you cannot sell them without the license going with it.

Windows is licensed with hardware specifically and is totally
different than Mac OS license.

>
> IOW, there is no concept of "not being sold with" for that original license.
>
> >All of this is irrelevant anyway because you can put a Mac G3 or g4 on
> >eBay any day of the week loaded with OS X Panther or Tiger, Adobe,
> >Quark, etc. with no disks and it will not be cancelled.
>
> Not true.  Adobe and MS (to take two examples I've been hit with)
> have both hired copyright police companies to watch eBay.  If you
> offer computers containing their products and no media & license,
> there is a good chance the auctions will be canceled.  And if you do
> it repeatedly, besides eBay suspension, you'll get a nice registered
> letter from the copyright holder's lawyers. :\

Wrong ! It's all over eBay No matter what the Law is, eBay lets it
slide. And whoever is supposed to be watching auctions is not doing
itheir job becasue I see it everyday.

>
> >I see it all the time and have filed complaints when they use the apps
> >as a selling point. Not one auction has been closed due to my
> >complaints.
>
> As appropriate.  It's not your copyright, therefore you have no legal
> standing to interfere with the auction.  IOW, when you see an
> infringing auction, it's nice to report it to eBay - but you really
> need to report it to the copyright owner or their legal agent if you
> expect any action to be taken.
>
> See eBay's help area for information on their Verified Rights Owner
> (VeRO) program.  aka the copyright police authorization rules.
>
> - Dan.
>

I wasn't arguing legality, just eBay's policy violations.

Ok, just because I am not deemed "authorized" then it is legal and ok.
 So it's legal as long as eBay says it is and nobody gets caught. And
as long as eBay can make money on it.

eBay just covers their collective butts by what they do. The law is
the law and eBay is not a lawmaker, just a policy maker who claims to
do the proper thing but hides behind a disclaimer and having a user
agreement accepted.

I can find numerous violations of software copyright  laws all day
long on eBay. I confess it would be very difficult for eBay to
eliminate this problem but they ignore it and make money on it.


--
Ron

http://krowmagnum.4mg.com/

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Re: Software piracy

[Tom W.]

On 12/9/05, Clark Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 5:07 PM -0500 12/9/05, Tom W. wrote:

> >
> >Why don't we  start with one story? I've never, ever heard of a
> >computer company coming after a user who sold his laptop with an OS on
> >it.
> >
> >I know people get busted  for duplicating software and then selling
> >it, but a home user selling his computer getting  hunted down by the
> >police?
> >
> >I don't think so.
>
> Ah, the old it's only illegal if you get caught plan!
> --
> Clark Martin

I'm not saying that at all Clark (that it's only illegal if you get
caught). You made a statement that there were plenty of stories about
people getting busted for software piracy that used the "I didn't know
it was wrong" defense.

I challenged you to provide one instance where that had occurred as a
result of an individual user selling a computer with an unlicensed OS
on it. I've never heard of individuals being targetted by police or
other authorities for selling their own  computer with an OS on it.
That doesn't make it right, and I'm not  saying it's right.

Tom
--
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Re: Software piracy

[Lists]

On Dec 9, 2005, at 5:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


At 4:41 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:

On 12/9/05, john ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 It does not indicate piracy in any way. For example when I  
upgraded tp Tiger I bought the family pack with 4 or 5 installs.


And if you sell a Mac with one of those installs it should include  
a license transfer with it and you will have one less license. The  
vast majority of eBay sellers do not buy multi-licenses.


I don't beleive you can break up a family-pack license that way.   
The point of the discount is that the licensees are all part of  
your household.


Correct:

Search http://store.apple.com/ for 'MA191' such as

http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore?productLearnMore=MA191

Family Pack Software License Agreement allows you to install and use  
one copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple- 
labeled computers at a time as long as those computers are located in  
the same household and used by persons who occupy that same  
household. By "household" we mean a person or persons who share the  
same housing unit such as a home, apartment, mobile home or  
condominium, but shall also extend to student members who are primary  
residents of that household but residing at a separate on-campus  
location. This license does not extend to business or commercial users.


i.e. you can buy it for your family and your kids in college, but you  
can't buy a family pack for the office and use it on your home  
computer or sell any of the other 4 on eBay.


TjL


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Re: Software piracy

[darm0k]

At 8:35 PM -0800 12/09/2005, Clark Martin wrote:

At 5:07 PM -0500 12/9/05, Tom W. wrote:

I know people get busted for duplicating software and then selling
it, but a home user selling his computer getting hunted down by the
police?

I don't think so.


Ah, the old it's only illegal if you get caught plan!


The NJ state senate is trying to change the rules regarding cell 
phone usage in cars.  Right now it's a secondary offence here -- you 
can only get nailed if you're stopped for something else.  They want 
to make it a primary offence.


I want to know where instant messaging falls into all this!  I've got 
a friend that sits his powerbook on the front seat, connected to the 
'net via a bluetooth cell phone.  He isn't holding it up to his ear, 
so he calls it "hands free" ... except when he's looking down at it 
to read incoming msgs then type responses - while driving.


- Dan.

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Re: Software Piracy

[darm0k]

At 11:22 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:

On 12/9/05, macnifico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It is permisible to sell a computer with the OS only. The rules do 
not specify that the OS should be the original one for the computer.


Where did you find that ? The original OS is a license issue, not an
ebay issue. If the OS license is not being sold it is a copyright
violation.


Pardon?

All Macs are licensed for their original OS.  Period.  You cannot 
sell them without the license going with it.


Most PCs are licensed for their original copy of Windows.  Likewise, 
you cannot sell them without the license going with it.


IOW, there is no concept of "not being sold with" for that original license.


All of this is irrelevant anyway because you can put a Mac G3 or g4 on
eBay any day of the week loaded with OS X Panther or Tiger, Adobe,
Quark, etc. with no disks and it will not be cancelled.


Not true.  Adobe and MS (to take two examples I've been hit with) 
have both hired copyright police companies to watch eBay.  If you 
offer computers containing their products and no media & license, 
there is a good chance the auctions will be canceled.  And if you do 
it repeatedly, besides eBay suspension, you'll get a nice registered 
letter from the copyright holder's lawyers. :\



I see it all the time and have filed complaints when they use the apps
as a selling point. Not one auction has been closed due to my
complaints.


As appropriate.  It's not your copyright, therefore you have no legal 
standing to interfere with the auction.  IOW, when you see an 
infringing auction, it's nice to report it to eBay - but you really 
need to report it to the copyright owner or their legal agent if you 
expect any action to be taken.


See eBay's help area for information on their Verified Rights Owner 
(VeRO) program.  aka the copyright police authorization rules.


- Dan.

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Re: Software Piracy

[darm0k]

At 9:30 PM -0600 12/09/2005, macnifico wrote:
In more than a thousand eBay transactions, only ONCE did the seller 
sent me a letter transferring something to me. Really, he included 
the disks and a letter of transfer. Only one guy, in more than 300 
computers and programs bought through eBay


So many people don't realize they should include them.  I request 
them for every software item I buy - and I get them.  Never had 
anyone complain about it either.


- Dan.

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Re: Software piracy

[Tom Ethen]

Every Mac sold has some OS shipped with it and it is legal to sell it with
the same OS on the computer it shipped with.

Tom

On 12/9/05 10:35 PM, "Clark Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Why don't we  start with one story? I've never, ever heard of a
>> computer company coming after a user who sold his laptop with an OS on
>> it.
>> 


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Re: Software piracy

[Clark Martin]

At 5:07 PM -0500 12/9/05, Tom W. wrote:

On 12/9/05, Clark Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 No.  There are plenty of stories of people getting busted for
 software piracy who've claimed they didn't know it was wrong.  That
 defense rarely works.



Why don't we  start with one story? I've never, ever heard of a
computer company coming after a user who sold his laptop with an OS on
it.

I know people get busted  for duplicating software and then selling
it, but a home user selling his computer getting  hunted down by the
police?

I don't think so.


Ah, the old it's only illegal if you get caught plan!
--
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"

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Re: Software Piracy

[Krow Magnum]

On 12/9/05, macnifico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi, Listers!
>
> It is permisible to sell a computer with the OS only. The rules do
> not specify that the OS should be the original one for the computer.

Where did you find that ? The original OS is a license issue, not an
ebay issue. If the OS license is not being sold it is a copyright
violation.

As far as I know it's still a violation of the OS user agreement and
ebay is specific about copyright infringement. There are too many
different OS company and licenses for them to make one rule about
OS's.

> It is NOT permisible to include other software, like M$ Office, Adobe
> Photoshop, etc., if you advertise it, your auction will be cancelled,
> even if you include the "erase disk" clause.

This is the only thing I could find that specifically deals with
software not allowed:

"Software loaded onto a hard drive that is not being sold with the
original media (disks, manuals, etc.)"

Only occasionally do I see any CD's or DVD's included with computers.
eBay does not really care that much and expect the members to police
it and inform them of violations. But good luck getting anything done
even if you can find where to file a complaint and file one.

The erase disk "clause" is a joke.. Everyone knows what that means.


> In more than a thousand eBay transactions, only ONCE did the seller
> sent me a letter transferring something to me. Really, he included
> the disks and a letter of transfer. Only one guy, in more than 300
> computers and programs bought through eBay
>
> Best regards.
> Hugo Diaz


All of this is irrelevant anyway because you can put a Mac G3 or g4 on
eBay any day of the week loaded with OS X Panther or Tiger, Adobe,
Quark, etc. with no disks and it will not be cancelled.

I see it all the time and have filed complaints when they use the apps
as a selling point. Not one auction has been closed due to my
complaints.

The problem I have with it is i get tired of telling people that they
didn't buy the Operating System and/or application they thought they
bought. When there is a problem and or a boot disk is needed they are
screwed. Most of those people bought Macs with current OS's and not
what was original for the Mac. Many times they buy the Mac
specifically for the software loaded. What happens when the hard drive
dies ?  They die all the time..

--
Ron

http://krowmagnum.4mg.com/

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Re: Software Piracy

[macnifico]

Hi, Listers!

It is permisible by the eBay rules, to contact you about a similar 
item being auctioned in eBay.
It is NOT permisible to contact you to offer you a similar item 
by-passing eBay, (a private sale).
It is permisible to sell a computer with the OS only. The rules do 
not specify that the OS should be the original one for the computer.
It is NOT permisible to include other software, like M$ Office, Adobe 
Photoshop, etc., if you advertise it, your auction will be cancelled, 
even if you include the "erase disk" clause.
In more than a thousand eBay transactions, only ONCE did the seller 
sent me a letter transferring something to me. Really, he included 
the disks and a letter of transfer. Only one guy, in more than 300 
computers and programs bought through eBay


And an interesting story: I bought a Duo 230 some years ago, that 
included ALL the e-mail that this gal in a famous university ever 
sent.
I'm seriously considering writing a novel based on this gal's VERY 
interesting love life, plus all the problems she had trying to adapt 
to the big university environment. It was very interesting reading, 
and made me a fanatic of the "wipe every  HD and re-install 
everything before selling it".
Problem is, English is a second language to me, so I'm sure I would 
not do justice to the material.  :-)


Best regards.
Hugo Diaz
--
"The only thing we knew for sure about Henry Porter is that his name
 wasn't Henry Porter"
 Bob Dylan, "Brownsville Girl"

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Re: Software piracy

[darm0k]

At 5:07 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Tom W. wrote:

On 12/9/05, Clark Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > No.  There are plenty of stories of people getting busted for

 software piracy who've claimed they didn't know it was wrong.  That
 defense rarely works.


Why don't we start with one story? I've never, ever heard of a 
computer company coming after a user who sold his laptop with an OS 
on it.


I know people get busted for duplicating software and then selling
it, but a home user selling his computer getting hunted down by the
police?

I don't think so.


Microsloth's hired / authorized copyright police have eBay terminate 
auctions regularly, regardless of who the seller is.  But I don't 
think they push for fines and such against private individuals.


Then there's the BSA, ?Business Software Association?  The 
international copyright police that are employeed by the likes of MS. 
They go into companys and nail them for infringement.  Then they 
check the employees homes to see if what they've copied...  Big fines 
they collect!


I don't recall hearing of a private seller getting busted for 
shipping a computer with an Apple OS on it...


- Dan.

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Re: Software piracy

[Krow Magnum]

On 12/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 4:41 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:
> >On 12/9/05, john ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>  It does not indicate piracy in any way. For example
> >>  when I upgraded tp Tiger I bought the family pack with
> >>  4 or 5 installs.
> >
> >And if you sell a Mac with one of those installs it should include a
> >license transfer with it and you will have one less license. The vast
> >majority of eBay sellers do not buy multi-licenses.
>
> I don't beleive you can break up a family-pack license that way.  The
> point of the discount is that the licensees are all part of your
> household.
>
> - Dan.
>

Probably not on the Family packs because Apple would loose money that way.
--
Ron

http://krowmagnum.4mg.com/

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Re: Software piracy

[darm0k]

At 4:54 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:


It probably is one of the most broken laws but don't connect eBay with
legality. eBay lets lots of things go on that are not legal.


eBay is like a common carrier.  The provide a venue, not legal 
responsibility for the goods sold[*].  It is simply impossible to 
police every auction, given the fees they charge.  Protecting that 
open venue status is why eBay doesn't try to peruse auctions on their 
own, for legal violations.  Same reason your phone company can't be 
held liable because you used their lines to plan a crime...


[*] There are exceptions to this.  eg: In Germany it's illegal to 
sell certain WWII-related goods (trying to pre-avoid spam filter 
here), authentic or replica or new.  And if eBay lets anyone, they 
can be held liable.  Likewise with various state weapons laws...



School and corporate sales regularly sell computers with the hard
drives wiped clean and no install CD's which is why some have no OS
installed. Technically I could buy one and install an OS from one of
my CD's and if it is what came on the Mac I am not violating my single
user license on my install CD because the Mac had a license when sold
for that OS.


Right.

Media vs License.  Two totally separate entities.


But if I install Tiger on more than one Mac in my home
with a single user license I am violating the user agreement.


Only company I ever saw handle all this correctly was Digital.  You 
bought a license for each CPU then you separately bought the media. 
You could use the media on as many computers as you wanted - as long 
as they each had a license.  By making them two separate purchasable 
items, it made us track things better.


I do it, and a lot of people do it but it is still violates the user 
agreement.


sh. :)

- Dan.

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Re: Software piracy

[darm0k]

At 4:43 PM -0500 12/09/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

That must be the most broken law in the world then, because I rarely see a
computer on Ebay or anywhere else that has no software.


ya. Same.  A widely abused reading of the "fair use" clause.


 Unless it is in parts or missing the hard drive.


I got some nice corporate financial records on some JAZ disks I 
bought last year...  heheheh


- Dan.

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Re: Software piracy

[darm0k]

At 4:41 PM -0500 12/09/2005, Krow Magnum wrote:

On 12/9/05, john ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 It does not indicate piracy in any way. For example
 when I upgraded tp Tiger I bought the family pack with
 4 or 5 installs.


And if you sell a Mac with one of those installs it should include a
license transfer with it and you will have one less license. The vast
majority of eBay sellers do not buy multi-licenses.


I don't beleive you can break up a family-pack license that way.  The 
point of the discount is that the licensees are all part of your 
household.


- Dan.

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Re: Software piracy

[darm0k]

At 4:28 PM -0500 12/09/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 12/9/05 1:22:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


One thing about the seller who has the iBook is that he is probably
reputable but just does not have the OS CD's to sell with it. Too many
eBay sellers sell computers with a newer OS but no CD's which is
software pirating and generally is a sign of their honesty.


There is no legal obligation to include the original media with the computer.

The original OS license is tied to the computer hardware.  Failing to 
include the media is kosher.  BUT then using that media on another 
computer is a license violation and copyright infringement.



Without the CD's the hard drive should be wiped clean.


I don't know about it being an indicator of anyone's honesty or not; what
about situations where individuals are selling their personal 
laptops after being upgraded? Doesn't the act of piracy require some 
requisite mental state?


Nothing mental about it.  Well, except maybe the dope-induced IQ of 
the legislators that wrote the DMCA.



Also, doesn't the frequently seen "Buyer must erase drive after reviewing OS"
pretty much cover any loose ends?


Original OS vs Upgraded by purchase/retail.

It's ok for the original OS to be on the computer forever, regardless 
of where the media ends up.


If the computer has an upgraded OS then that OS' media (and, 
technically, a letter from the seller to the buyer transferring the 
license) should be included with the computer.  If it's not, then the 
copy of the OS on the computer is illegal and should have been wiped 
before it left the seller's posession.


There is no such thing as "reviewing the OS" being legit, ever.

- Dan.

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Re: Software piracy

[Tom W.]

On 12/9/05, Clark Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No.  There are plenty of stories of people getting busted for
> software piracy who've claimed they didn't know it was wrong.  That
> defense rarely works.
>

Why don't we  start with one story? I've never, ever heard of a
computer company coming after a user who sold his laptop with an OS on
it.

I know people get busted  for duplicating software and then selling
it, but a home user selling his computer getting  hunted down by the
police?

I don't think so.

Tom
--
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http://editor.weeklyzone.com

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Re: Software piracy

[Krow Magnum]

On 12/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/9/05 4:37:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >That's BS ! They are selling software without a license.
>
> Alrighty then; thanks.
>
> That must be the most broken law in the world then, because I rarely see a
> computer on Ebay or anywhere else that has no software. Unless it is in parts 
> or
> missing the hard drive.
>
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
> Ivy F., AL
> "Roll Tide!"
> Beiges, 'Books and other oddities
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
>

It probably is one of the most broken laws but don't connect eBay with
legality. eBay lets lots of things go on that are not legal.

Macs can have an OS without the CD's but it should be the original OS
that came with the Mac. And somebody somewhere probably has
the original CD's too which should go with that Mac. There are not
that many lost or destroyed install CD's.

School and corporate sales regularly sell computers with the hard
drives wiped clean and no install CD's which is why some have no OS
installed. Technically I could buy one and install an OS from one of
my CD's and if it is what came on the Mac I am not violating my single
user license on my install CD because the Mac had a license when sold
for that OS. But if I install Tiger on more than one Mac in my home
with a single user license I am violating the user agreement. I do it,
and a lot of people do it but it is still violates the user agreement.


--
Ron

http://krowmagnum.4mg.com/

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Re: Software piracy

[Clark Martin]

At 4:28 PM -0500 12/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 12/9/05 1:22:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


One thing about the seller who has the iBook is that he is probably
reputable but just does not have the OS CD's to sell with it. Too many
eBay sellers sell computers with a newer OS but no CD's which is
software pirating and generally is a sign of their honesty. Without
the CD's the hard drive should be wiped clean. So at least he didn't
add Panther or Tiger to the iBook to sell it for more money and that's
a good sign.


I don't know about it being an indicator of anyone's honesty or not; what
about situations where individuals are selling their personal 
laptops after being

upgraded? Doesn't the act of piracy require some requisite mental state?


No.  There are plenty of stories of people getting busted for 
software piracy who've claimed they didn't know it was wrong.  That 
defense rarely works.




Also, doesn't the frequently seen "Buyer must erase drive after reviewing OS"
pretty much cover any loose ends?


Maybe, legally, maybe not.  But it's like someone not to loot the 
store like everyone else is then giving them a shove.  On second 
thought I don't think it is legal as they are sending it to you 
without the disks so at that point it is illegal, even if you do 
erase the disk immediately.

--
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"

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Re: Software piracy

[Alan Miller]

Most likely the proper thing to do..

--
Alan Miller
Underwater Photographer   <°<°.°.°.°.
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Live each day like it is your last because someday you'll be right.


On Dec 9, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Krow Magnum wrote:

Otherwise it should have the original OS on it as the Mac was  
originally sold with that OS license.


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Re: Software piracy

[GalBros]

In a message dated 12/9/05 4:37:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>That's BS ! They are selling software without a license.

Alrighty then; thanks.

That must be the most broken law in the world then, because I rarely see a 
computer on Ebay or anywhere else that has no software. Unless it is in parts 
or 
missing the hard drive.

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
Ivy F., AL 
"Roll Tide!"
Beiges, 'Books and other oddities
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

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Re: Software piracy

[Krow Magnum]

On 12/9/05, john ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It does not indicate piracy in any way. For example
> when I upgraded tp Tiger I bought the family pack with
> 4 or 5 installs.
>

And if you sell a Mac with one of those installs it should include a
license transfer with it and you will have one less license. The vast
majority of eBay sellers do not buy multi-licenses.

Otherwise it should have the original OS on it as the Mac was
originally sold with that OS license.

--
Ron

http://krowmagnum.4mg.com/

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Re: Software piracy

[Krow Magnum]

On 12/9/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/9/05 1:22:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >One thing about the seller who has the iBook is that he is probably
> >reputable but just does not have the OS CD's to sell with it. Too many
> >eBay sellers sell computers with a newer OS but no CD's which is
> >software pirating and generally is a sign of their honesty. Without
> >the CD's the hard drive should be wiped clean. So at least he didn't
> >add Panther or Tiger to the iBook to sell it for more money and that's
> >a good sign.
>
> I don't know about it being an indicator of anyone's honesty or not; what
> about situations where individuals are selling their personal laptops after 
> being
> upgraded? Doesn't the act of piracy require some requisite mental state?
>
> Also, doesn't the frequently seen "Buyer must erase drive after reviewing OS"
> pretty much cover any loose ends?
>

That's BS ! They are selling software without a license.


--
Ron

http://krowmagnum.4mg.com/

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Re: Software piracy

[john ryan]

It does not indicate piracy in any way. For example
when I upgraded tp Tiger I bought the family pack with
4 or 5 installs.

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 12/9/05 1:22:31 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> >One thing about the seller who has the iBook is
> that he is probably
> >reputable but just does not have the OS CD's to
> sell with it. Too many
> >eBay sellers sell computers with a newer OS but no
> CD's which is
> >software pirating and generally is a sign of their
> honesty. Without
> >the CD's the hard drive should be wiped clean. So
> at least he didn't
> >add Panther or Tiger to the iBook to sell it for
> more money and that's
> >a good sign.
> 
> I don't know about it being an indicator of anyone's
> honesty or not; what 
> about situations where individuals are selling their
> personal laptops after being 
> upgraded? Doesn't the act of piracy require some
> requisite mental state?
> 
> Also, doesn't the frequently seen "Buyer must erase
> drive after reviewing OS" 
> pretty much cover any loose ends?
> 
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
> Ivy F., AL 
> "Roll Tide!"
> Beiges, 'Books and other oddities
> xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
> 
> -- 
> G-Books is sponsored by 
> and...
> 
>  Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com  |
> Refurbished Drives |
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> 
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>

> 
> 
> 
>
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> 
> 


[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Software piracy

[GalBros]

In a message dated 12/9/05 1:22:31 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>One thing about the seller who has the iBook is that he is probably
>reputable but just does not have the OS CD's to sell with it. Too many
>eBay sellers sell computers with a newer OS but no CD's which is
>software pirating and generally is a sign of their honesty. Without
>the CD's the hard drive should be wiped clean. So at least he didn't
>add Panther or Tiger to the iBook to sell it for more money and that's
>a good sign.

I don't know about it being an indicator of anyone's honesty or not; what 
about situations where individuals are selling their personal laptops after 
being 
upgraded? Doesn't the act of piracy require some requisite mental state?

Also, doesn't the frequently seen "Buyer must erase drive after reviewing OS" 
pretty much cover any loose ends?

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
Ivy F., AL 
"Roll Tide!"
Beiges, 'Books and other oddities
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

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