RE: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Lorelei Halley]

Nancy

I only omitted Valenciennes because it produces another whole set of problems.
Mechlin/Flanders and Flemish/Brussels/Duchesse were enough, for the time
being. Let me recover my brain’s full function and I may revisit that aspect
of the problem.



And, among your other points, the problem of gradual changes from one type to
another, there is also the problem of wild, uncontained, irreverent creativity
which leads some lace designers to mix styles and techniques. It drives me
crazy.



Also, having just reviewed my own pinboards, with lots of examples, I now have
to admit that Mechlin ground was used in the mid 1700s in straight laces. I
base this on the ratio of ground to motif. If that ratio is 50/50 the lace is
from c. 1750, give or take a decade.



Also I just revised some of my pinboards, and separated out the Revival Era
and modern examples from the older ones. So the links I just posted don’t
work. But these should.



Part laces

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/early-brussels-flemish-milanese/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/brussels-point-de-angleterre-brabant/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/duchesse-bobbin-lace/



Straight laces

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-and-old-mechlin-antique/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-revival-era-and-modern/



From: Nancy Neff [mailto:nancy.a.n...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:42 PM
To: Lorelei Halley 
Cc: Arachne 
Subject: Re: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology



Lorelei,



It may be because I am both a collector and a lacemaker, but I don't see that
the two groups differ in what they want to use a name for--to be a short-hand
for some set of data.

...

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Re: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Nancy Neff]

Lorelei,

It may be because I am both a collector and a lacemaker, but I don't see
that the two groups differ in what they want to use a name for--to be a
short-hand for some set of data. The data that you as a lacemaker want to
know is the same as what I think collectors want to know--techniques, date,
location of manufacture, materials, and what characteristics enable one to
know date and origin. The fundamental question is which of these data do
you want to base a name on?  The more distinguishing features you use as
the basis for identifying a "kind of lace"--i.e., what one puts a unique
name to--the finer the categories are going to be and the more names will
be in play. Plus you have the difficulty of naming lace that is a
duplicate, made yesterday, of an antique piece, since I think both
lacemakers and collectors would consider the later copy to be different
from the original, however close to identical the two are.

My second observation is that the terminology problem really arises from
the fact that there are few discontinuities in the history of lace; for any
two related kinds of lace, one can usually find examples that are
intermediate between the two, or combine features from one with features
from the other. Any terminology is going to have problems with items that
fall on a spectrum or, worse, vary in multiple dimensions as lace does.

I suspect that my solution for my own use will be to base a set of names on
only the techniques used in the lace, and apply adjectives to those names
as needed to communicate the other metadata, especially date, because
usually all the rest are inferred from techniques and design. However, I
will withhold that suggestion as well as specific comment on your
classification until I have found my old notes and thought more about it
all again, since this revisits something I attempted to do about 10 years
ago (except to ask whether you meant to exclude Valenciennes or is that an
oversight?).

Many thanks to Devon, I think it was, for opening this particularly
interesting can of worms!

Nancy A. Neff
Connecticut, USA

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Lorelei Halley 
wrote:

> We have a constant problem with terminology, partly because we comprise 2
> different groups of people - collectors and lace makers. ... As
> I understand it, the collectors want a name they can use to reference a
> particular piece in a way that gives collectors an idea what to expect. I
> would like to hear from collectors on this issue, particularly what they
> consider the purpose of a name for a lace. ...
>
> The problem comes in when us lacemakers get into the conversation. My
> perspective is always that of a lace maker - what techniques are used in
> this piece, what do I have to know to reproduce this. I also would like
> terminology to refer to time, to distinguish antique from modern designs of
> that type, and to distinguish century or half century for antique laces...

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[lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Lorelei Halley]

We have a constant problem with terminology, partly because we comprise 2
different groups of people - collectors and lace makers. I am not willing to
say one is right and the other wrong. But our perspectives are different. As
I understand it, the collectors want a name they can use to reference a
particular piece in a way that gives collectors an idea what to expect. I
would like to hear from collectors on this issue, particularly what they
consider the purpose of a name for a lace. So "Mechlin" may refer to a
general geographical origin (just as "Honiton" may refer to any part lace
from Devon, which traveled to London on the Honiton coach)  Collectors also
seem to use the term "Flemish" to refer to the fragile laces from about
1650-1700 that were made, generally, in the region of Flanders.

 

The problem comes in when us lacemakers get into the conversation. My
perspective is always that of a lace maker - what techniques are used in
this piece, what do I have to know to reproduce this. I also would like
terminology to refer to time, to distinguish antique from modern designs of
that type, and to distinguish century or half century for antique laces. I
have worked out a set of terminology that I use, mostly to talk to myself. I
don't seriously expect everybody to follow my path (though I admit my ego
would find that delicious). 

 

I use Flemish/Early Brussels to describe part laces from 1650 to the early
1700s. I tack on the Early Brussels to indicate there should be no confusion
about whether Flemish = Flanders. (The latter name usually describes a
straight/continuous lace.)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/996823_49140
0894273766_1364151723_n.jpg?oh=2cff56b44e455c0a632fcee9eaf247e3

&oe=53A3EEF6&__gda__=1404252930_8170d20c0b32e3d52a6b574a925e4929

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/15026355644/in/photostream/ 

http://lynxlace.com/images/lace719.jpg 

 

Look at the last row - http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlace1559to1700.html 

 

I use "Brussels" to refer to part laces of the 18th century which emanate
from the fashion center of that age. Laces from about 1750 are sometimes
called "point d'Angleterre". But I refuse to use that latter name. As far as
I can see its only use is to describe a particular style of Brussels lace.
Duchesse is the 19th c simplification of Brussels. I refuse to use "Brussels
Duchesse" to refer to Duchesse with needle inserts: I just call it "Duchesse
with point de gaze inserts". I do that because the motifs of Duchesse are
distinct and always basically the same. 

 

Here are links to my pinterest boards, which I have collected in an attempt
to pin images to these names.

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/early-brussels-early-flemish-early-mi
lanese-part-l/ 

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/brussels-point-de-angleterre-brabant/


https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/duchesse-bobbin-lace/ 

 

I use Flanders/Mechlin to describe straight/continuous laces from the region
near the town of Mechlin, dating from the first half of the 18th c, and
using any of the complex grounds, usually with gimp. And I use "Flanders" to
describe laces from the revival era, c 1900, using 5 hole ground. And I use
"Mechlin" to refer to revival era laces which have Mechlin ground.

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-and-old-mechlin-bobbin-lace/


https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/mechlin/ 

 

I am trying to create names which include reference to the structure, the
time environment, and the style of a lace.

 

Sorry for the very lengthy report, but this can't really be explained in
just a few words. So I offer my method, for whatever it is worth.

 

Lorelei Halley

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[lace] terminology

[Alex Stillwell]

Re - Jane in Vermont, USA where the lilacs are in bloom and smell divine.
jvik...@sover.net
I say it is for the lace writing community to set the  usage, and the Oxford
Spelling Dictionary to follow our lead! As soon as we  develop our
style sheet we can send them a copy.

Thank you Jane. Understanding each other is the most important aspect and the
little differences can assist in avoiding misinterpretation. Certainly the
Oxford Dictionary follows usage, whether the powers that be like the terms or
not, We only have to pass our terminology into mainstream usage and the OD has
to follow.

Happy Lacemaking, lace making or lace-making (whichever you prefer)

Alex

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Re: [lace] Terminology help

[AGlez]

Hello Alice,

A long time ago I bought an International Lace Dictionary, perfect for these
cases.

It says:

Polohod: half stitch
Platno: cloth stitch
tocena paska: meandering tape
tocenych: (must be something related to tapes, as the word has the same
start))
Reticek: plait, braid, bar

I bought the book to the author.
Edith Spee, Ineke van den Kieboom, jophan Coene. GENT, 1998.

Best regards.

Antje, in Spain.

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[lace] Terminology help

[Jean Nathan]

This appears to be Czech. 


If so, according to the 'International Lace Dictionary':


Polohod - half stitch
Platno - cloth stitch, whole stitch, linen stitch
tocene - can't find it on its own, but tocena paska - meandering tape

can't find:

tocenych
Reticek ... this might be braid - nearest is Reticella

Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK

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[lace] Terminology help

[lacelady]

I'm starting a motif for which I have only a pricking... no picture or diagram.

The pricking has some word clues but I don't know the language.

I'm sure 'paru' means pair.  The other terms are:

Polohod ... this might be half stitch
Platno
tocene
tocenych
Reticek ... this might be braid


Does anyone recognize these lace terms?

Alice in Oregon 

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[lace] Terminology

[Margot Walker]

On 11 Jan 2011, at 04:16, Jean Nathan wrote:

Fortunately most of the terms used in lacemaking are the same.  
Think the only different I've found is in the size of crochet hooks.


One major difference is "whole stitch" (U.S.) versus "whole stitch  
and twist" (U.K.).


Margot Walker in Halifax on the east coast of Canada
Visit the Seaspray Guild of Lacemakers web site:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/quinbot

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Re: [lace] terminology

[Nancy Neff]

What a neat idea--object-oriented lace programming! Each program using these 
classes will produce a specific lace design, yes? 

Or no--I just visited your project site and I'm blown away. What an ambitious 
goal, and what a marvelous design tool if it can be completed! I have some 
ideas about your terminology questions but I want to think about them further 
before throwing them out there. It is great, however, to find a fellow software 
designer who understands the critical importance of getting member variable & 
class names right. I have found that misleading or unclear names lead to design 
and programming errors...

Very very cool.

--Nancy
Connecticut, USA





From: J. Falkink 
To: Avital ; Arachne.com 
Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 10:49:08 AM
Subject: RE: [lace] terminology

> A class diagram! How cool! I work with them but have never 
> seen them used for bobbin lace.
> 
> Avital

If you happen to use them for Java development, you could consider joining
my project at http://bobbinwork.googlecode.com

Jo

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Re: [lace] terminology

[Clive & Betty Rice]

Hummm, Schizophrenia? :) Betty Ann in Roanoke, Virginia USA

Oct 25, 2009 06:19:49 AM, yhgr@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Dear Spiders

  My question might look a bit weird but perhaps together you are
  inventive. I
  have this rather technical diagram with a tree in the centre:
  http://bobbinwork.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/class-diagrams2. gif

  Please stay with me, I don't expect you to understand the full
  technical
  implications of this diagram, but you will recognise familiar terms
  at the
  bottom of the tree: pin, stitch, cross, twist and diagram. You can
  ignore
  the loose blocks at both sides, my question is about the tree in the
  middle,
  even just about the bold face words in the top of the boxes. These
  words
  lack spaces, they have capitals where a new word starts, that is a
  programming convention.

  May be you can help me for better terminology for the rest of the
  tree.
  Though I'm working for years with this diagram I'm still mixing up
  some of
  the terms I chose, so I hope there are better alternatives, the
  shorter the
  words the better. Some hints to help understand the purpose of the
  tree: You
  can divide and subdivide a diagram in various types of
  sections/partitions
  with different an similar properties. As opposed to a section with
  just a
  pin, we have sections that do represent threads, so that is why I
  picked
  MutlipleThreadsPartions. A cross and twist are about a single pair,
  so these
  form a group oppesed to partitions that are about multiplre pairs
  such as
  stitches. A group is typically something like a spider, snowflake or
  a
  cloth-stitch motif in flanders or binche. Don't we have a better word
  than
  just a group? And do we have a word that can mean both stitch and
  group? In
  a colorcoded diagram a stitch is represented as one cross in one
  color (if
  we forget the twistmarks). What I called a ChainedPairsPartition
  consitst of
  multiple crosses that might or might not have differet colors. Where
  a
  ChainedPairsPartition contains more than one cross, a
  MultiplePairsPartition
  can be one or more. Writing this: I have one (a stitch), more
  (chained), one
  or more (multiple); not very logical.

  Clear as mud? Please reply to the group as the fantasy or questions
  of one
  can trigger the fantasy or knowledge of another.

  Jo

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RE: [lace] terminology

[J. Falkink]

> A class diagram! How cool! I work with them but have never 
> seen them used for bobbin lace.
> 
> Avital

If you happen to use them for Java development, you could consider joining
my project at http://bobbinwork.googlecode.com

Jo

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Re: [lace] terminology

[Avital]

A class diagram! How cool! I work with them but have never seen them
used for bobbin lace.

Avital

On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 12:16 PM, J. Falkink  wrote:
> Dear Spiders
>
> My question might look a bit weird but perhaps together you are inventive. I
> have this rather technical diagram with a tree in the centre:
> http://bobbinwork.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/class-diagrams2.gif
>

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[lace] terminology

[J. Falkink]

Dear Spiders

My question might look a bit weird but perhaps together you are inventive. I
have this rather technical diagram with a tree in the centre:
http://bobbinwork.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/class-diagrams2.gif

Please stay with me, I don't expect you to understand the full technical
implications of this diagram, but you will recognise familiar terms at the
bottom of the tree: pin, stitch, cross, twist and diagram. You can ignore
the loose blocks at both sides, my question is about the tree in the middle,
even just about the bold face words in the top of the boxes. These words
lack spaces, they have capitals where a new word starts, that is a
programming convention.

May be you can help me for better terminology for the rest of the tree.
Though I'm working for years with this diagram I'm still mixing up some of
the terms I chose, so I hope there are better alternatives, the shorter the
words the better. Some hints to help understand the purpose of the tree: You
can divide and subdivide a diagram in various types of sections/partitions
with different an similar properties. As opposed to a section with just a
pin, we have sections that do represent threads, so that is why I picked
MutlipleThreadsPartions. A cross and twist are about a single pair, so these
form a group oppesed to partitions that are about multiplre pairs such as
stitches. A group is typically something like a spider, snowflake or a
cloth-stitch motif in flanders or binche. Don't we have a better word than
just a group? And do we have a word that can mean both stitch and group? In
a colorcoded diagram a stitch is represented as one cross in one color (if
we forget the twistmarks). What I called a ChainedPairsPartition consitst of
multiple crosses that might or might not have differet colors. Where a
ChainedPairsPartition contains more than one cross, a MultiplePairsPartition
can be one or more. Writing this: I have one (a stitch), more (chained), one
or more (multiple); not very logical.

Clear as mud? Please reply to the group as the fantasy or questions of one
can trigger the fantasy or knowledge of another.

Jo

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Re: [lace] Lace terminology

[Maureen Bromley]

I totally agree with Clay.  I have known Alex for many years now and her 
ability to teach and explain lace techniques does not decrease.   She has 
taught me all types of lace over the years and yet I still find the need to 
attend her workshops when I can.   If I lived closer to her I am sure that I 
would still attend her weekly seasons.With so many books about on the 
different types of lace available for us to work, it is nice to see someone 
working on producing a Bucks Point Lace. Her Floral Bucks Point Lace is 
eagerly awaited. Well by me at least!!!.


Maureen
East Yorkshire UK.where it is very windy and damp but we have had many 
weeks of dry weather.



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2409 - Release Date: 10/02/09 
06:46:00


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Re: [lace] Lace terminology

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi Debora -

I have one excellent suggestion.  Alex Stillwell has been studying Bucks 
Point lace for many years, and to her surprise, most of the books she 
had  seen in the past were referencing only the much older books about 
Bucks.  So, she set out to really study Bucks Point and to examine it 
with a critical eye.  The first result has been "All about making 
Geometric Bucks Point Lace", a very thorough and thought-provoking 
manual on this kind of lace.  She addresses every single skill that you 
could possibly imagine in a well-thought-out series of usable projects.  
And each skill is carefully explained in plain English, with excellent 
diagrams to add to the understanding of the concept. 

I highly endorse this book.  Not only does it subscribe to the "old" 
understanding of how this lace was made, it also recognizes that this 
lace was not consistently made anywhere on earth - not at a working 
lacemaker's hearth, not in the same home, not on the same piece!!!  So, 
the lesson to modern lacemakers is to understand the fundamentals of 
Geometric lace, and to then apply these "rules" as best suit the piece 
you're working on.  Having met her and studied with her, I can endorse 
the validity of what she says.  Her books are clearly written, and are a 
breath of fresh air for those who want to pursue Bucks Point.  She is 
currently working on "All about making Floral Bucks Point Lace", and 
this promises to elevate the art to a much higher level!




Clay

Clay Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA, USA



Debora Lustgarten wrote:

Dear Clay,
I'm working on Bucks at the moment, but I find that as I learn more 
about lace, my likes change My long-term goals are being able to 
replicate Medieval lace patterns and to try my hand at some Blonde or 
even Chantilly (if my sight allows, that is).
I'm lucky to have found several books on Bucks, not only Mrs. 
Channer's. They include Pamela Nottingham's, Bridget Cook's, the UK 
Lace Guild introduction and others, so I think I'm  covered at the 
moment.  However, if you have suggestions, I will love to hear them!

Thanks for your kind thoughts,
Debora L.


At 06:24 PM 30/09/2009, you wrote:

Hi Deborah!

I'm so glad that the others have cleared up this terminology for you...
I was mystified!!

Are you working in Bucks Point lace at present?  Or are you still 
working in Torchon?  If you could tell me what kind of lace you 
enjoy, perhaps I could suggest a more current, more "up-to-date" book 
which would be easier for you to follow, since you seem to have the 
essential skills.


Clay






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Re: [lace] Lace terminology

[Brenda Paternoster]

It's an old expression which means starting to work the pattern or  
getting it established on the pillow.


On 30 Sep 2009, at 20:41, Debora Lustgarten wrote:

I was reading some books about Bucks point lace and found the  
expression "setting a pattern in".

What does that mean?


Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/

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RE: [lace] Lace terminology

[Ruth Budge]

It just means to hang in/on the bobbins and start a new pattern. I've
also seen it called "setting up".

Ruth
thelacema...@optusnet.com.au

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Debora Lustgarten
Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 5:42 AM
To: lace@arachne.com
Subject: [lace] Lace terminology

Hello all,
I was reading some books about Bucks point lace and found the 
expression "setting a pattern in".
What does that mean?
Currently, I'm practising gimp-work, learning to work with passive 
pairs on headside scallops and valleys, and square tallies in tulle 
ground... Fun!
Cheers,
Debora L.

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Re: [lace] Lace terminology

[bev walker]

To Clay, Debora and list

I happened to have a copy of the booklet "Lacemaking - Point Ground" by CC
Channer (The Dryad Press) - page 21, "To Wind Bobbins and Set in a Pattern"
- describes the winding of the bobbins, then how-to to begin learning bobbin
lace but doesn't describe per se what 'set in a pattern' might mean - I
would just assume it means to 'start in.'
(hang bobbins, begin the work).

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Clay Blackwell
wrote:

>
>
> Debora Lustgarten wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>> I was reading some books about Bucks point lace and found the expression
>> "setting a pattern in".
>> What does that mean?
>>
> --
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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Re: [lace] Lace terminology

[Joan Wilson]

Hi Debora and Thank you Clay! 
I was feeling the same way and wondering where
I had missed that expression.
Joan, in rainy Stayner, ON

From: Clay Blackwell

To: Debora Lustgarten 
Cc:
lace@arachne.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 5:18:53 PM
Subject: Re:
[lace] Lace terminology

Hi Debora -

I'm fascinated...  I've never heard this
expression before.  Could you tell us which author used it, in which book, and
in what context?  That might make it easier to figure out.

Clay

Clay
Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA  USA

Debora Lustgarten wrote:
> Hello all,
> I was
reading some books about Bucks point lace and found the expression "setting a
pattern in".
> What does that mean?
> Currently, I'm practising gimp-work,
learning to work with passive pairs on headside scallops and valleys, and
square tallies in tulle ground... Fun!
> Cheers,
> Debora L.
> 
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Re: [lace] Lace terminology

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi Debora -

I'm fascinated...  I've never heard this expression before.  Could you 
tell us which author used it, in which book, and in what context?  That 
might make it easier to figure out.


Clay

Clay Blackwell
Lynchburg, VA  USA

Debora Lustgarten wrote:

Hello all,
I was reading some books about Bucks point lace and found the 
expression "setting a pattern in".

What does that mean?
Currently, I'm practising gimp-work, learning to work with passive 
pairs on headside scallops and valleys, and square tallies in tulle 
ground... Fun!

Cheers,
Debora L.

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[lace] Lace terminology

[Debora Lustgarten]

Hello all,
I was reading some books about Bucks point lace and found the 
expression "setting a pattern in".

What does that mean?
Currently, I'm practising gimp-work, learning to work with passive 
pairs on headside scallops and valleys, and square tallies in tulle 
ground... Fun!

Cheers,
Debora L.

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Re: [lace] .. terminology/rose ground in 's Gravenmoer Lace

[Clay Blackwell]

It's CT... and then an extra T.  So...  CTT pin CTT. 


Clay

bevw wrote:

A question: in this case does one make the half-stitch as TC or CT ?

On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Clay Blackwell 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
 


"Rose Ground:  A  's Gravensmoer Lace rose ground is what is known
as honey comb in Torchon.  Half stitch, twist both PRS one time
and pin.   Close with a half stitch and twist both PRS one time."


--
Bev (near Sooke, BC on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)


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Re: [lace] .. terminology/rose ground in 's Gravenmoer Lace

[bevw]

A question: in this case does one make the half-stitch as TC or CT ?

On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Clay Blackwell
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:


> "Rose Ground:  A  's Gravensmoer Lace rose ground is what is known as honey
> comb in Torchon.  Half stitch, twist both PRS one time and pin.   Close with
> a half stitch and twist both PRS one time."
>

-- 
Bev (near Sooke, BC on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)

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Re: [lace] terminology

[Jo Falkink]

The circle is closing, spell closs as klos (same  pronounciation) and you 
have the Dutch word for bobbin.


Jo Falkink
near Gouda, Netherlands
http://www.xs4all.nl/~falkink/lace/intro-NL.html

I had a Chinese student once who used to do 'closs stitch' in her bobbin 
lace and 'closs stitch' embroidery!


Brenda
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/


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Re: [lace] terminology and pillows

[Brenda Paternoster]

On 15 Mar 2006, at 10:00, Jane Partridge wrote:


 The
only problem here is if you get a slightly deaf student, used to doing
her (embroidery) cross stitch, who latches on to "cross & twist"!


I had a Chinese student once who used to do 'closs stitch' in her 
bobbin lace and 'closs stitch' embroidery!


Brenda
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/

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[lace] terminology and pillows

[Jane Partridge]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Alice Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

>The English terminology is:
>Half Stitch CT
>Whole StitchCTC
>Double Stitch   CTCT (or Whole stitch plus a twist)
>
>The Continental terminology is:
>Half stitchTC
>Cloth or Linen stitch  CTC
>Whole Stitch   TCTC

The English terminology depends very much upon who taught you! I was
taught that CTC is cloth, whole or linen stitch. Linen stitch is the
most logical, because the finished effect looks like a piece of linen,
however I prefer to call it cloth stitch, and CTCT cloth & twist. The
only problem here is if you get a slightly deaf student, used to doing
her (embroidery) cross stitch, who latches on to "cross & twist"! 

Whole stitch, as a term, opens such a can of worms these days that I
wonder how many of us are using the other names to avoid the problems?
Certainly we have to make sure that students are aware of all of the
names, because of the wide availability of books and the different terms
used in them. 

>The English laces are mostly worked on flat pillows
>with the bobbins lying supported.  The Twist stitch
>will hold it's position when not being used.

This is a fairly modern thing, though, just about every photograph/image
of an old professional English lacemaker I have seen shows either a
bolster pillow for East Midlands laces, or Honiton pillow for Honiton
lace. Flat pillows appear to have come in with the convenience of
polystyrene - they are more likely to be found as traditional in
Belgium??? I think most of us probably use the modern domed pillows.
Something to research into? David Turner is going to be talking about
how pillows are made (as well as some of the history of their business -
Church Meadow Crafts - he has taken over pillow making from SMP) at our
lace day in June - maybe he will have some of the answers.

-- 
Jane Partridge

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Re: [lace] terminology (was - should have known this!)

[Alice Howell]

Yes, a bit of everything can be found everywhere. 
Bolster pillows in UK or USA, flat pillows in Denmark,
and so forth.  I was speaking in very general terms in
my previous message.

Modern lacemakers are not restricted to one type of
lace, one type of pillow, one style of bobbins, only
one way to make lace.  We have a grand time trying out
different laces and etc, and often ending up with
quite a collection of lace tools and books.  Sometimes
the tools are as much fun as the lace itself.  But
that same variety of tools allows us to try many
different styles of lace.

Some people stay with one or two styles of lace and
are very happy.  Some people keep only one pillow, and
just **have** to finish each project before they can
start a new one.  Some people dabble in this and that,
and before they know it -- 6 or 8 or 10 different
projects are in progress, each with their style of
pillow and bobbins.

The main thing is..ENJOY your lace.  Use the tools
you have available, and just do it.  Celebrate the
differences.  

Lacemaking is additive and infectious.  Find a friend
and make lace together.  Do it in public, and gain
another friend.  Sharing your fun only makes it
better.
(Obviously, I'm very addicted.) 

Happy lacing,
Alice in Oregon -- where I have Finished my table
ribbon!!  How is yours coming?



--- Dorte Tennison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> a little correction, flat pillows is allso used on
> the continentel, not just 
> an english phenomenon, and we use the same
> terminology as ctct hole/double 
> stich, here in Denmark
> Dorte
> 

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Re: [lace] terminology (was - should have known this!)

[Dorte Tennison]

a little correction, flat pillows is allso used on the continentel, not just 
an english phenomenon, and we use the same terminology as ctct hole/double 
stich, here in Denmark

Dorte


Hi Jenny,

You have jumped into the world of lacemaking terms
with both feet.  We're all there with you.  I hope
this may help sort it out.

There are two schools of bobbin lacemaking -- the
Continental Method and the English Method.

The English terminology is:
Half Stitch CT
Whole StitchCTC
Double Stitch   CTCT (or Whole stitch plus a twist)

The Continental terminology is:
Half stitchTC
Cloth or Linen stitch  CTC
Whole Stitch   TCTC

You can see why there is confusion about the term
"whole stitch".  Because of this, there are many
modern lacemakers who have chosen to use --
Half stitch
Cloth stitch
Double stitch
--as the terms for the three stitches.

However, you need to understand both sets of
terminology so you can interpret whatever book you
happen to choose to use.  There are books written with
both methods.  (A brief note -- the term 'throw' means
stitch.  It's an older term and not used much now.)

You may have noticed that the stitches T and C are not
in the same order in the two methods.  The English
method is CT for half stitch, which ends each stitch
with the two threads of a pair twisted.  This is
called the Closed Method.

The Continental methods is TC for half stitch, which
ends each stitch with the two threads of a pair
hanging straight down.  This is the Open Method.  If
you think about making lace on a bolster pillow, the
bobbins hang down when not in use.  If they had a
twist on them, they would untwist as they hung.  The
Twist first is necessary on this type of pillow.

The English laces are mostly worked on flat pillows
with the bobbins lying supported.  The Twist stitch
will hold it's position when not being used.

It may be hard to believe, but there's no way to tell
which method was used when the lace is completed.  A
section of half stitch usually starts and ends with a
twist.  When doing CT, an extra twist is added at the
start.  When doing TC, an extra twist is added at the
end.  The result with both methods looks exactly the
same.

I hope I haven't confused you completely.  You need to
know that there's more than one way to talk about
lacemaking, and more than one way to do most things.
Choose one method to work on now, and don't worry
about the other one.  You may or may not ever try it.
My experience has been that most people continue with
the method their first teacher taught them.

Happy lacing,
Alice in Oregon -- only 3 months till PNW Conference
and there's still room in some classes.  Check the
Portland Lace Society webpage.

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Re: [lace] terminology

[bevw]

On 3/14/06, Alice Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The English terminology is...:
>
> Double Stitch   CTCT

In Stillwell's dictionary, both double stitch and double half stitch
are given as equal to
"cloth and twist"  (sic)
and I'm just as happy calling it CTCT  !

>
> The Continental terminology is:
> Half stitchTC
> Cloth or Linen stitch  CTC
> Whole Stitch   TCTC

My Dutch friend who had learned at a lace college in Amsterdam called
it half, cloth and linen, and we worked it CT, CTC, CTCT. go figure.

>
> However, you need to understand both sets of
> terminology so you can interpret whatever book you

Lacemaking terminology is so muddied, best to check the terms in
whichever book the basic 'stitches' are described, and take it from
there. Then there is system of colour coding, which is straightforward
as long as there is a reference chart for which colour means what, on
the diagram.


> both methods.  (A brief note -- the term 'throw' means
> stitch

In one instance where I read it in relation to BL,  the author was
describing completing only a CTC (or 'cloth' stitch -  in handweaving
terms a 'throw' is a row completed after the shuttle is thrown (across
the 'web')). Do a whole throw across the row aargh.


--
Bev in Sooke BC (on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada)
Cdn. floral bobbins  www.woodhavenbobbins.com
blogging lace at www.looonglace.blogspot.com

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Re: [lace] terminology (was - should have known this!)

[Alice Howell]

Hi Jenny,

You have jumped into the world of lacemaking terms
with both feet.  We're all there with you.  I hope
this may help sort it out.

There are two schools of bobbin lacemaking -- the
Continental Method and the English Method.  

The English terminology is:
Half Stitch CT
Whole StitchCTC
Double Stitch   CTCT (or Whole stitch plus a twist)

The Continental terminology is:
Half stitchTC
Cloth or Linen stitch  CTC
Whole Stitch   TCTC

You can see why there is confusion about the term
"whole stitch".  Because of this, there are many
modern lacemakers who have chosen to use --
Half stitch 
Cloth stitch
Double stitch
--as the terms for the three stitches.  

However, you need to understand both sets of
terminology so you can interpret whatever book you
happen to choose to use.  There are books written with
both methods.  (A brief note -- the term 'throw' means
stitch.  It's an older term and not used much now.)

You may have noticed that the stitches T and C are not
in the same order in the two methods.  The English
method is CT for half stitch, which ends each stitch
with the two threads of a pair twisted.  This is
called the Closed Method.

The Continental methods is TC for half stitch, which
ends each stitch with the two threads of a pair
hanging straight down.  This is the Open Method.  If
you think about making lace on a bolster pillow, the
bobbins hang down when not in use.  If they had a
twist on them, they would untwist as they hung.  The
Twist first is necessary on this type of pillow.

The English laces are mostly worked on flat pillows
with the bobbins lying supported.  The Twist stitch
will hold it's position when not being used.

It may be hard to believe, but there's no way to tell
which method was used when the lace is completed.  A
section of half stitch usually starts and ends with a
twist.  When doing CT, an extra twist is added at the
start.  When doing TC, an extra twist is added at the
end.  The result with both methods looks exactly the
same.

I hope I haven't confused you completely.  You need to
know that there's more than one way to talk about
lacemaking, and more than one way to do most things.
Choose one method to work on now, and don't worry
about the other one.  You may or may not ever try it. 
My experience has been that most people continue with
the method their first teacher taught them.

Happy lacing,
Alice in Oregon -- only 3 months till PNW Conference
and there's still room in some classes.  Check the
Portland Lace Society webpage.

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[lace] Terminology

[Elizabeth Ligeti]

When I started Lacemaking, I was taught Whole Stitch - Cross, Twist, Cross,
Half Stitch - Cross, Twist,
and Double Half-stitch - Cross, Twist, Cross, Twist.
It all gets confusing, I agree.   I suggest you use whichever terminology 
you are used to, but put a list in the front of the book, as to how you work 
the stitch.

from Liz in Melbourne, Oz,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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[lace] Lace Terminology - Bedfordshire/Torchon

[Jane Partridge]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Diana Smith
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Another *mistake* is she mentions Nottinghamshire 

Not necessarily.  In the histories of the machine lace industry
(Nottingham in particular) there is mention that John Heathcote watched
the natural movements of the hand lacemakers in order to imitate the
twisting movement in the machinery.  Admittedly he was in Loughborough,
not Nottingham, at the time, but I would suspect that there were
probably pockets of lacemakers in most of the rural communities - we
have, maybe, a tendency to want to "package" things into easy chunks and
that anything that doesn't fit in the "package" couldn't possibly have
been so, could it? :-).  

Also, despite "tradition", families did move quite large distances in
those days - one of my father's side was born in Kent, moved to York,
and finally settled in Rutland near Peterborough (he was a railway
worker) - though the main area for his family name (Phippen) appears to
be around Honiton! Lacemakers were not only the wives of agricultural
workers - they were also married to railway navvies (and being a
tracklayer's daughter, I'm following the tradition!).  Another section
of Dad's family moved from the Peterborough/Stamford area
(Cambridgeshire/Lincolnshire border and Rutland) to Bradford (Yorkshire)
to work the mines - they were farm workers before that - so it stands a
chance that lacemakers who were married into the more "nomadic"
agricultural families would not have stayed neatly put in
Northamptonshire, Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire - they would have
followed their menfolk to where their work was - after all, it was the
men who earned the money to keep the family, the woman's income was
extra to this. 

I once came across some bobbins in a Cotswold antique shop labelled as
"West Midlands" - this equally could have been a mistake, but also could
have been accurate - we use "East Midlands" bobbins made in the West
Midlands quite frequently now (and where I am, I am geographically
sitting on the fence!).

Only those around at the time, and their children (and maybe,
grandchildren) will know exactly where lace was made for sure!

Incidentally, "Torchon" lace was used for furnishings - and possibly
could have meant a lace of low quality and coarse thread - in which case
Bedfordshire of this type (rather than the finer variety used in
clothing) could have been termed Bedfordshire-Torchon ?  So many words
change their meanings over the years!

-- 
Jane Partridge

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Re: [lace] Lace Terminology - Bedfordshire/Torchon

[Adele Shaak]

Jenny wrote:
In Gabrielle Pond's book "An Introduction to Lace" she refers to
Bedfordshire as a Torchon lace.
Yes, um, ... that's the book I was quoting from. I just wondered if 
everybody else did too or if it was just her. Since I wrote that 
message I read a little in Emily Jackson's "Old Hand-Made Lace" and she 
uses similar terminology.

Adele

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[lace] Lace Terminology - Bedfordshire/Torchon

[Diana Smith]

Torchon was being made in the East Midlands at that time but 'Torchon
Bedfordshire' I don't know and I'm not sure about the 'Buckinghamshire
spider pattern bobbin lace' either!
Another *mistake* is she mentions Nottinghamshire when I'm sure she must
have been referring to Northamptonshire, a commonly made mistake, the three
main East Midlands lacemaking counties being Beds, Bucks and Northants.
Diana (Northamptonshire, UK)

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Re: [lace] Lace Terminology - Bedfordshire/Torchon

[Barron]

Adele said
In Gabrielle Pond's book "An Introduction to Lace" she refers to
Bedfordshire as a Torchon lace.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3550728677&category=112
4

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3551222852&category=112
4

must be serendipity but there are 2 copies on ebay at the moment

jenny barron
Scotland

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[lace] Lace Terminology - Bedfordshire/Torchon

[ashaak]

I have come across a rather odd reference and I was hoping some of our British members 
might be able to help.

In Gabrielle Pond's book "An Introduction to Lace" she refers to Bedfordshire as a 
Torchon lace.

First, in the photographs on page 29, the photo of what I would call Torchon is 
labelled "East Midlands Bobbin Lace, c 1870" while on the same page what I would call 
Bedfordshire lace is labelled "Traditional Torchon Bedfordshire bobbin lace."

I would have thought that this was just a printing mix-up in the labels, but she makes 
the same reference in the text. On page 31 she describes Torchon as "A common type of 
lace made chiefly in England and France from cotton or flax, in geometrical designs, 
rather similar to Maltese. It is often coarse and used principally for household 
linens." I think this description applies more to Bedfordshire/Cluny than it does to 
what we now call Torchon, especially the "rather similar to Maltese" reference.

My question is - did people in England generally refer to Bedfordshire as Torchon 
lace, or is this just something Gabrielle Pond came up with?

By the way, these references are taken from the second edition of the book, published 
by Charles Scribners Sons in 1973.

Adele
North Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

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