Re: DNS blocklist software?

[Jason Clifford]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Paul Makepeace wrote:

> This is exactly what I'm after, and it sounds like you've done something
> similar to what I'm trying to do. I have a program that tails the exim
> logs and simply drops IPs into the firewall for a certain period of time
> depending on the transgression (you're welcome to this code FWIW).
> Problem is that the 2nd MXs get hassled instead.

A lot of spammers only send mail to the lower value MX servers.

> The amount of time is dependent on which regex matches. I was thinking
> of making the time grow depending how many times that IP misbehaves.
> 
> Is this what you're doing? Have you written code to use Net::DNS::Update
> to do this?

I don't use any automated proceedure for this. While that may be OK for a 
private mail server or a small company for an operation with a large 
number of users (my rbl is primarily for UKPOST.COM and UKFSN.ORG, the two 
ISPs I run) it is important that only servers that are definitely "guilty" 
are added to the list.

For this reaason it is a manual process as in I read the mail headers 
carefully and check the body to ensure it is not an "innocent" message 
before caling a script to add the entry to the relevant zone file.

I don't use Net::DNS::Update as it doesn't make sense to do so for me. It 
really doesn't make too much difference if the zone doesn't get reloaded 
and the new data included for an extra 5 minutes unless there is an active 
DoS underway in which case I'll be dealing with it as an urgent matter and 
different proceedures apply.

> Hmm, this sounds much more hacky. I'd rather update it direct.

Fair enough but to be warned that a lot of spammers are getting very good 
at confusing Received from headers so you need to be absolutely sure that 
you are acting upon the correct data.

One question for you though, if you are acting only upon the mail logs how 
are you certain that the message in question is really spam?

It strikes me that relying solely upon the address mail is sent to may 
result in false positives - perhaps that is just because I have so many 
email addresses though.

Jason Clifford
-- 
UKPOST.COM get your @ukpost.com address now...
http://www.ukpost.com/ professional hosting and colocation

Re: BOOK: XSLT Cookbook

[Alex McLintock]

At 22:08 12/03/03, David Cantrell wrote:
If anyone - not on the naughty list - wants to review the XSLT Cookbook they
can grab it off me at the tech meet.


I'd love to review this, but if I am not already on Dave's naughty list I 
ought to be I have quite a few review books for DiverseBooks.com 
including some perl ones!

I also wont be at the Tech meeting as I am going to the launch party of Tor 
UK. (Tor is a very popular American SF imprint)

woo woo.

If anyone wants to review books, chat about writing software for a book 
reviews website, or just wants a free drink turn up at my place, 
Leytonstone sometime on Saturday afternoon. Email for directions or phone 
020 89264753.

Its my birthday but no presents or cards are needed, but it would be nice 
if you brought something to eat or drink or both.

Alex

Available for java/perl/C++/web development in London, UK or nearby.
Apache FOP, Cocoon, Turbine, Struts,XSL:FO, XML, Tomcat, JSP
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/

Book needed

[Alex McLintock]

This may not be suitable for a public list but I've been wondering about 
writing a computing book and was wondering what people thought was needed.

I'm reasonably up there in perl, java, XML, web etc so mention anything you 
like.

I'm also thinking about doing a general purpose "Pocket Essential Guide to 
Open Source and Free Software" which will obviously mention perl.

I doubt that either of these projects will actually earn money so don't 
make any suggestions if you expect to be paid for them :-)

Alex Mc

Available for java/perl/C++/web development in London, UK or nearby.
Apache FOP, Cocoon, Turbine, Struts,XSL:FO, XML, Tomcat, JSP
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Dirk Koopman]

>   And here comes a good question: What are the goodies inside Python that
> keeps folks "coming out with cool new projects written in Python not Perl"?
> Are any of this goodies being introduced into Apocalipse (6|7)?
> 
>   Just wondering WTHFDLP[1]...
> 
>   Luis
> 
> [1]: "Why The Hell Folks Don't Like Perl"

Because perl is not simple enough to learn enough to be allow people to
get fluent enough, quickly enough, to do what they wannado.

Python obeys the 80% rule, it is 80% as good as perl but it only takes
20% of the time to learn (for the pedants: this is a generalisation to
illustrate the problem and doesn't represent hard and fast numbers).

Python is basically a very simple language that does most of what you
want in a regular, "obvious" (depending on your definition of that word)
way. Perl is expressive, it has much semantic subtlety, it does DWIM
(but only after you have learned enough to write your code down in a way
that perl can understand clearly WYM). I have grown to like it.

There are too many side effects (eg $_) and contexts (eg array or
scaler) in perl that are wonderful for experienced perl people but
bloody annoying (or just downright annoying) to newbies. As a result
they get hacked off and try something else. Ruby is another up and
coming haven for pissed off putative perl programmers. That even *looks*
rather like perl!

Most programmers prefer a language to DWIS not DWIM. At least if it
doesn't work then you only have to refine what you say, I am assuming
you already know what you mean.

Personally, I think perl 6 is going backwards in 'subtlety' respect. It
may be making some syntax clearer, but also introducing even more
'hidden context' (if I read the, frankly, opaque 'apocalypses'
correctly)[or at least the few pages before I give up reading, trying to
understand]. 

I have to say: I ain't looking forward to the learning curve.

Dirk
-- 
Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the
Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to
Exist or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Aaron Trevena]

On 13 Mar 2003, Dirk Koopman wrote:
> > [1]: "Why The Hell Folks Don't Like Perl"
>
> Because perl is not simple enough to learn enough to be allow people to
> get fluent enough, quickly enough, to do what they wannado.

I think it is, but has a bad (unearned) reputation as being hard to learn.
Perl is easy to learn - one of ex-colleagues learnt enough to handle
mod_perl, searching, databases, etc in a couple of days just by reading
the Llama and a couple of web pages.

Anybody who reckons perl is hard to learn just hasn't tried to learn.

> Most programmers prefer a language to DWIS not DWIM. At least if it
> doesn't work then you only have to refine what you say, I am assuming
> you already know what you mean.

I think most programmers would choose DWIM other DWIS, only people who
beginning programming rather than beginning perl would choose DWIS. People
who can't program like languages that avoid programming and force you into
early 70's style Jackson Structured Programming that they learnt BASIC or
PASCAL in.

> Personally, I think perl 6 is going backwards in 'subtlety' respect. It
> may be making some syntax clearer, but also introducing even more
> 'hidden context' (if I read the, frankly, opaque 'apocalypses'
> correctly)[or at least the few pages before I give up reading, trying to
> understand].

I think Perl 6 will make life easier for beginners and masters, much will
become clearer and cleaner.

regards,

A.

-- 
Aaron J Trevena - Perl Hacker, Kung Fu Geek, Internet Consultant
AutoDia --- Automatic UML and HTML Specifications from Perl, C++
and Any Datasource with a Handler. http://droogs.org/autodia

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Damian Conway]

Piers Cawley wrote:

...Piers is perfectly capable of coding equally cleverly
in Python, or Java, or Pascal or any other language.
;-)


Frankly, Piers would rather stick his nuts in a blender than program
in either Python, Java or Pascal thank you very much.
Now you're just being silly.

I mean, where would they find a blender big enough???

;-)

Damian

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Paul Makepeace]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:12:45AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> Anybody who reckons perl is hard to learn just hasn't tried to learn.

Do you realise how obnoxious this kind of statement is? Probably not.
Imagine if you *had* tried to learn, and struggled, and then read
something like this. What would you think & feel? How might that then
colour your view of perl programmers? How quickly might you find
yourself buying the Python/Java/Pascal in a Nutshell book(s)?

Paul

-- 
Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/

"What is the name of the two dots that go over the letters in the German
 language? The mind of the biggest head."
   -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/

Re: Book needed

[Nigel Hamilton]

> This may not be suitable for a public list but I've been wondering about 
> writing a computing book and was wondering what people thought was needed.
> 
> I'm reasonably up there in perl, java, XML, web etc so mention anything you 
> like.
> 
> I'm also thinking about doing a general purpose "Pocket Essential Guide to 
> Open Source and Free Software" which will obviously mention perl.
> 

Hi Alex,

What about a Linux/Unix Cookbook?

I think there's a gap in the market for this type of book ..  
'Linux Server Hacks' is the closest thing I've seen to it but it still
doesn't cover all the 'recipes' you need.

So something like 'Unix Power Tools' meets 'Linux Server Hacks' 
meets the 'Perl Cookbook' 


Nige

-- 
Nigel Hamilton
Turbo10 Metasearch Engine

email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel:+44 (0) 207 987 5460
fax:+44 (0) 207 987 5468

http://turbo10.com  Search Deeper. Browse Faster.

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Nigel Hamilton]

> On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:12:45AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> > Anybody who reckons perl is hard to learn just hasn't tried to learn.
> 

I found the learning curve long and low ... but it always felt like there
might be a cliff at the end ...


NIge


-- 
Nigel Hamilton
Turbo10 Metasearch Engine

email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel:+44 (0) 207 987 5460
fax:+44 (0) 207 987 5468

http://turbo10.com  Search Deeper. Browse Faster.

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Dave Hodgkinson]

On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 11:16, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:12:45AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> > Anybody who reckons perl is hard to learn just hasn't tried to learn.
> 
> Do you realise how obnoxious this kind of statement is? Probably not.

I consider myself reasonably intelligent, but it took me three "runs" at
perl to finally "get it". 

Glad I did? Hm, I'd probably be doing Java for a company selling
front-office systems still instead of living the rock and roll
lifestyle.


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

[ANNOUNCE] London.pm Mentoring Program + Tech Meet Tonight!

[Mark Fowler]

[ First up, don't forget, there's a Technical Meeting tonight at Yahoo!
  For full details see: http://london.pm.org/lpm/20030303/017342.html ]

London.pm's mentoring program is a new scheme launched by London.pm as way
to allow people wanting to learn more about Perl to directly benefit from
the more experienced members of the group.  The scheme tries to pair
together students with mentors;  This directly flexible one-on-one
training relationship allows mentoring by mixture of email, irc/instant
messaging or real life face to face meetings (whatever works best for the
mentor and student)

The training scheme is aimed at training all levels of Perl programmers,
from someone who has never programmed before, up to someone who's been
programming Perl for a while who might need some extra help with something
like OO programming, learning about database access, or better CGI
discipline.

At this stage the scheme is seeking out potential students who believe
that they could benefit from the scheme.  A short mail sent to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] including details such as level of experience and
approximate details of where you live/work should enable us to find a
mentor that is best suited in terms of training disciplines and ability to
meet face to face with you.

Hoping to hear from you soon (and possibly see you at the meet tonight)

Mark.

-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl -T
use strict;
use warnings;
print q{Mark Fowler, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://twoshortplanks.com/};

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Aaron Trevena]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:12:45AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> > Anybody who reckons perl is hard to learn just hasn't tried to learn.
>
> Do you realise how obnoxious this kind of statement is? Probably not.
> Imagine if you *had* tried to learn, and struggled, and then read
> something like this. What would you think & feel? How might that then
> colour your view of perl programmers? How quickly might you find
> yourself buying the Python/Java/Pascal in a Nutshell book(s)?

ha! I have java in a nutshell and you certainly couldn't pick up java from
it, if you want to learn java buy 'learning java', if you want to learn
perl buy 'learning perl'.

I'm hardly a super-hacker, I managed a CS Nat Dip and a Computing Degree
but TBH that doesn't make you a good programmer. There is a really shallow
slope for learning perl - compare this to the fuss needed to print hello
world in Java.

Even pascal and cobol seem tortuous to learn compared to perl, and neither
had the brilliant support or documentation or literiture that perl has.

If I learnt perl without any books or courses and colleagues without CS
degrees have learnt enough to be very productive in a couple of evenings
readings how can it be hard.

Perl is only hard to learn if you haven't already learnt to program. If
you are learning to program try pascal or basic then try c, perl and java.
Java is harder than perl for non-programmers.

If you never actually understood or learnt programming but are essentially
a monkey trained to repeat the same 10 mouse clicks you learnt on your VB
course then it will be hard, because you still don't understand
programming. Its like complaining that driving a nice audi is hard because
you've only ever driving a go-kart around a car park !!

regards,

A.

-- 
Aaron J Trevena - Perl Hacker, Kung Fu Geek, Internet Consultant
AutoDia --- Automatic UML and HTML Specifications from Perl, C++
and Any Datasource with a Handler. http://droogs.org/autodia

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Piers Cawley]

Damian Conway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Piers Cawley wrote:
>
>>> ...Piers is perfectly capable of coding equally cleverly
>>> in Python, or Java, or Pascal or any other language.
>>>
>>>;-)
>> Frankly, Piers would rather stick his nuts in a blender than program
>> in either Python, Java or Pascal thank you very much.
>
> Now you're just being silly.
>
> I mean, where would they find a blender big enough???

You are a Very Bad Man. As if we didn't already know this.

-- 
Piers

Re: [ANNOUNCE] London.pm Tech Meet Thurs March 13th + Social Tonight

[Jody Belka]

Mark Fowler said:
> full directions are below.  As before you should aim to get to Yahoo!
> for 7pm, for a 7.15pm sharp start.  The meeting should last just over a
> couple of hours, and we will be retiring to a nearby drinking
> establishment
> afterwards for discussion of talks.

is anyone going to be at the pub before the meet as well? if so i'll grab
an earlier (emptier) train.


Jody

External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Blackwell, Lee [IT]]

Hi all.

I'm bringing my camcorder along tonight to film[1] the speakers &
presentations.  

Has anyone got a suitable external microphone they can bring along?  The
socket in my camcorder appears to be 3.5mm (my headphones fit in there)

Lee

[1] Well, feed it straight into the Mac, and save messing about with tapes
etc.

Re: Looking for a better way

[Adam Spiers]

Graham Barr ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 09:44:08PM +0530, shn wrote:
> > I was just bored and was wondering what would be a better way to titlecase
> > something, using this right now:
> > 
> > perl -e "$_='boink boink';@a=split' ';foreach(@a){$_=ucfirst;}$_=join' ',@a;print"
> 
>   perl -le "$_='boink boink'; s/(\w+)/\u$1/g; print"



  echo "boink boink" | perl -pe 's/\b./\u$&/g'

Driving

[Dominic Mitchell]

Aaron Trevena wrote:
Its like complaining that driving a nice audi is hard because
you've only ever driving a go-kart around a car park !!
Driving an audi is hard because it's a big ugly /car/ with 4 wheels. 
Try a two wheeled device.  Much easier!

-Dom

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Mark Fowler]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Blackwell, Lee [IT] wrote:

> I'm bringing my camcorder along tonight to film[1] the speakers &
> presentations.

You'll need to ask each of the speakers if they want you to do this.

Mark.

-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl -T
use strict;
use warnings;
print q{Mark Fowler, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://twoshortplanks.com/};

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Chris Benson]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:12:45AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> 
> Perl is easy to learn[**] - one of ex-colleagues learnt enough to handle
> mod_perl, searching, databases, etc in a couple of days just by reading
> the Llama and a couple of web pages.

[**] I think you missed "if you know Unix" out of there.

If you've never heard of grep, glob, split, local/gmtime,  unlink,
STDIN, ARGV, ... or seen a regular expression, it's all pretty 
bewildering.   Even if you have, there's all the chop/chomp/splice/...
cuteness to confuse.
-- 
Chris Benson -- hoping to teach my first Perl course in nearly 2 years
in April ... hoping they're not all "HTML-programmers".

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Leon Brocard]

Blackwell, Lee [IT] sent the following bits through the ether:

> I'm bringing my camcorder along tonight to film[1] the speakers &
> presentations.  

I don't think videoing speakers is useful. It's much more useful to
have the speaker's audio and their slides instead. Combine them in a
flash presentation (or regular movie file) for added onlineness.  That
at the fact that it's hard to film someone in low light with a bright
light just behind them ;-)

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
scribot.http://www.scribot.com/

... Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else

Re: Driving

[Robin Szemeti]

On Thursday 13 March 2003 13:45, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> Aaron Trevena wrote:
> > Its like complaining that driving a nice audi is hard because
> > you've only ever driving a go-kart around a car park !!
>
> Driving an audi is hard because it's a big ugly /car/ with 4 wheels.
> Try a two wheeled device.  Much easier!

ahh 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad. well done sir. Can I recommend you promptly 
nip over to http://www.ixion.org.uk/ and join the mailing list ... it is to 
motorcycling what london.pm is to programming  only less on topic.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

Perl, COM and ADO's - where do I start ?

[Leo Lapworth]

Hi Folks,

To cut a long story short I will be getting access
to a COM interface which will return me ADO RecordSet
objects for some information I need to put
into another (mySQL) database.

I've never used COM, or ADO (Active Data Object) so
I'm looking for some documentation on where to start
or a statment of "It can't be done get them to write
a different interface" (needs to be avoided if possible
for cost reasons).

I've been googleing and CPANing, but nothing seems to 
relate to this situation (actually I might have seen
something but not recognised it!).

Ideals:
---
I would prefer to do this all on a Linux Box, but
a Windoz server could be organised as the processing
bit, then piped out to mySQL on a Linux Box.

This needs to be reasonably fast as it's updating
a constant reporting process - something like
a query every 5 seconds.

Any pointers are much appeciated.

Thanks

Leo

Re: Driving

[Chris Benson]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 01:45:43PM +, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> Aaron Trevena wrote:
> >Its like complaining that driving a nice audi is hard because
> >you've only ever driving a go-kart around a car park !!
> 
> Driving an audi is hard because it's a big ugly /car/ with 4 wheels. 
> Try a two wheeled device.  Much easier!

Or even three: http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/

Then you don't fall over when you stop :-)
-- 
Chris Benson

RE: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Clayton, Nik [IT]]

> > I'm bringing my camcorder along tonight to film[1] the speakers &
> > presentations.
> 
> You'll need to ask each of the speakers if they want you to do this.

I mentioned this earlier this week (when you sent out the reminder).  At
least Celia and myself (Lee sits one desk over from me, it's his camcorder,
but this was my idea/fault) want to do this, because it's a good way of
improving our presentation style.

If anyone else wants to get immortalised on to hard disk, I'm more than
happy to edit the resulting files and either put them up on a web site
somewhere, or mail them out on CD to the speakers.

N
-- 
11 2 3 4 5 6 77
 0 0 0 0 0 0 05
-- The 75 column-ometer
Global Messaging, A: Top posting
120 Cheapside, x83331 Q: What's the most annoying e-mail habit?

RE: [ANNOUNCE] London.pm Tech Meet Thurs March 13th + Social Tonight

[Clayton, Nik [IT]]

> is anyone going to be at the pub before the meet as well? if 
> so i'll grab an earlier (emptier) train.

At least three of us will be at some pub in the vicinity by about 6ish.
Is there a preferred venue?

N
-- 
11 2 3 4 5 6 77
 0 0 0 0 0 0 05
-- The 75 column-ometer
Global Messaging, A: Top posting
120 Cheapside, x83331 Q: What's the most annoying e-mail habit?

RE: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Blackwell, Lee [IT]]

> I don't think videoing speakers is useful. It's much more useful to
> have the speaker's audio and their slides instead. Combine them in a
> flash presentation (or regular movie file) for added onlineness.  
Thats kinda the idea :)  We use the film & audio along with slides etc.

> That at the fact that it's hard to film someone in low light with a bright
> light just behind them ;-)
Dammit... I'll just have to hire a 'proper' film crew next time ;-)

Lee

RE: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Blackwell, Lee [IT]]

> > I'm bringing my camcorder along tonight to film[1] the speakers &
> > presentations.
> You'll need to ask each of the speakers if they want you to do this.

OK.  I'll be the guy wearing a sling, and floating about with a Mac and a DV
camera.  I'll make myself known to each speaker.

Lee

RE: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Clayton, Nik [IT]]

> I don't think videoing speakers is useful. 

It is if you're speaking, and want to see what needs improving in your
presentation skills.

> It's much more useful to
> have the speaker's audio and their slides instead. Combine them in a
> flash presentation (or regular movie file) for added onlineness.

That too.  I've been getting quite proficient with iMovie recently :-),
and I'm happy to do this for any speaker that wants it.

N
-- 
11 2 3 4 5 6 77
 0 0 0 0 0 0 05
-- The 75 column-ometer
Global Messaging, A: Top posting
120 Cheapside, x83331 Q: What's the most annoying e-mail habit?

Re: Driving

[Lusercop]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 02:30:24PM +, Robin Szemeti wrote:
> ahh 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad. well done sir. Can I recommend you promptly 
> nip over to http://www.ixion.org.uk/ and join the mailing list ... it is to 
> motorcycling what london.pm is to programming  only less on topic.

So, totally and utterly unrelated, then?

Lusercop, wondering whether he has time to prepare a lightning talk on
  DNS before this evening, not that it's scheduled.

-- 
Lusercop.net - LARTing Lusers everywhere since 2002

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Greg McCarroll]

* Clayton, Nik [IT] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > I don't think videoing speakers is useful. 
> 
> It is if you're speaking, and want to see what needs improving in your
> presentation skills.
> 

I think this is a myth put forward by school teachers and
trainers. The best help I have ever had for technical presentation is
MJD's slides on the subject, I think if you read them and think about
them a little, every year or two, it is much better than grimacing at a
video of yourself. However please ignore the bit about the cute
picture in his slides.

Also letting people see your slides in advance and give you feedback
is another good idea.

imho, ymmv, hth, yaatbr,

Greg

-- 
*** ***
***   Email address has changed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Please   ***
***   update your email address book.   ***
*** ***
Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/
   jabber://[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Perl, COM and ADO's - where do I start ?

[TSchutzerWeissmann]

Title: RE: Perl, COM and ADO's - where do I start ?





Hi Leo


> -Original Message-
> From: Leo Lapworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: 13 March 2003 14:39
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Perl, COM and ADO's - where do I start ?
> 
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> To cut a long story short I will be getting access
> to a COM interface which will return me ADO RecordSet
> objects for some information I need to put
> into another (mySQL) database.
> 
> I've never used COM, or ADO (Active Data Object) so
> I'm looking for some documentation on where to start
> or a statment of "It can't be done get them to write
> a different interface" (needs to be avoided if possible
> for cost reasons).
> 
> I've been googleing and CPANing, but nothing seems to 
> relate to this situation (actually I might have seen
> something but not recognised it!).
> 
> Ideals:
> ---
> I would prefer to do this all on a Linux Box, but
> a Windoz server could be organised as the processing
> bit, then piped out to mySQL on a Linux Box.


 I'm pretty sure you can get ADOs in xml form. That would make it much easier to deal with perhaps?


The only thing I could find re: COM - Linux looked scary, and not just because of the site design:


http://www.idevresource.com/com/library/articles/comonlinux.asp


Tom SW

Re: [ANNOUNCE] London.pm Tech Meet Thurs March 13th + Social Toni ght

[Simon Wistow]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 02:35:12PM -, Clayton, Nik [IT] said:
> > is anyone going to be at the pub before the meet as well? if 
> > so i'll grab an earlier (emptier) train.
> 
> At least three of us will be at some pub in the vicinity by about 6ish.
> Is there a preferred venue?

The Rising Sun. It's about 10 or 15 meters further down Ebury Road from
yahoo. You can see it from the front entrance.

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Simon Wilcox]

On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 15:15, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> * Clayton, Nik [IT] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > > I don't think videoing speakers is useful. 
> > 
> > It is if you're speaking, and want to see what needs improving in your
> > presentation skills.
> > 
> 
> I think this is a myth put forward by school teachers and
> trainers. The best help I have ever had for technical presentation is
> MJD's slides on the subject, I think if you read them and think about
> them a little, every year or two, it is much better than grimacing at a
> video of yourself. However please ignore the bit about the cute
> picture in his slides.

Where are these please ?

There's nothing quite like a video to show you the subconscious things
that you do while presenting. Like "umm"ing for Britain (in my case :)
or hopping from one foot to another or running your hand through your
hair.

Once you're made aware of them it is easier to control them in future.

> Also letting people see your slides in advance and give you feedback
> is another good idea.

Indeed useful but that doesn't necessarily help with your "style".

S.

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Paul Makepeace]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:24:15PM +, Simon Wilcox wrote:
> There's nothing quite like a video to show you the subconscious things
> that you do while presenting. Like "umm"ing for Britain (in my case :)
> or hopping from one foot to another or running your hand through your
> hair.

Totally agree! For most people, until you see yourself on camera you
really have no idea, unless you have some buddha-like self-awareness.
If you get a chance, I'd say go for it - you'll be amazed, if not
shocked, heh :)

Paul

-- 
Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/

"What is the point of a rhetorical question? It's a cinderella story on
 the tumble of the dice."
   -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/

RE: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Clayton, Nik [IT]]

> > I think this is a myth put forward by school teachers and
> > trainers. The best help I have ever had for technical 
> > presentation is MJD's slides on the subject, I think if you 
> > read them and think about them a little, every year or two, 
> > it is much better than grimacing at a video of yourself. However 
> > please ignore the bit about the cute picture in his slides.
> 
> Where are these please ?

http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/samples/

and

http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/samples/notes.html

N
-- 
11 2 3 4 5 6 77
 0 0 0 0 0 0 05
-- The 75 column-ometer
Global Messaging, A: Top posting
120 Cheapside, x83331 Q: What's the most annoying e-mail habit?

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Shevek]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Aaron Trevena wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 11:12:45AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
> > > Anybody who reckons perl is hard to learn just hasn't tried to learn.
> >
> > Do you realise how obnoxious this kind of statement is? Probably not.
> > Imagine if you *had* tried to learn, and struggled, and then read
> > something like this. What would you think & feel? How might that then
> > colour your view of perl programmers? How quickly might you find
> > yourself buying the Python/Java/Pascal in a Nutshell book(s)?
> 
> ha! I have java in a nutshell and you certainly couldn't pick up java from
> it, if you want to learn java buy 'learning java', if you want to learn
> perl buy 'learning perl'.

I learned Java from nutshell and I have no computing qualifications 
whatsoever. I also have Horstmann, Deitel and a dozen other Java texts 
which were frankly too crap to read. Nutshell every time.

> I'm hardly a super-hacker, I managed a CS Nat Dip and a Computing Degree
> but TBH that doesn't make you a good programmer. There is a really shallow
> slope for learning perl - compare this to the fuss needed to print hello
> world in Java.

I see hundreds of undergraduates struggling with exactly this. I am not at 
all convinced of the simplicity of HW in Java, even given a hardcopy of 
the source code.

I don't remember how I learned Perl. I remember reading the first few 
pages of "Learning Perl", which I didn't buy on the principle that I was 
going to read it at most once. I then got bored and started programming 
it. I think my knowledge of Perl (native) is complete.

> Perl is only hard to learn if you haven't already learnt to program. If
> you are learning to program try pascal or basic then try c, perl and java.
> Java is harder than perl for non-programmers.

My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of 
programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you 
type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions, 
and therefore they cannot program.

I think that this is a major problem. I think that undergraduates are (in 
general, specific cases excluded) a major problem. I think many things.

S.

-- 
Shevekhttp://www.anarres.org/
I am the Borg. http://design.anarres.org/

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Mark Fowler]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Simon Wilcox wrote:

> On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 15:15, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> > MJD's slides on the subject,
>
> Where are these please ?

Conference Presentation Judo:

  Slides:  http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/samples/slide001.html

  Notes:   http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/samples/notes.html

  MP3: http://www.perl.org/tpc/2002/audio/mjd-conf-judo/

  Video:   http://www.perl.org/tpc/2002/movies/mjd-conf-judo/ (quicktime)

Mark.

-- 
#!/usr/bin/perl -T
use strict;
use warnings;
print q{Mark Fowler, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://twoshortplanks.com/};

Re: External Mic for tonights meeting?

[Simon Wistow]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:24:15PM +, Simon Wilcox said:
> > I think this is a myth put forward by school teachers and
> > trainers. The best help I have ever had for technical presentation is
> > MJD's slides on the subject, I think if you read them and think about
> > them a little, every year or two, it is much better than grimacing at a
> > video of yourself. However please ignore the bit about the cute
> > picture in his slides.
> 
> Where are these please ?

http://perl.plover.com/yak/presentation/

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Dean]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:43:50PM +, Shevek wrote:
> My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of 
> programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you 
> type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions, 
> and therefore they cannot program.

I would have thought any of the Unix shells were a "system where
commands are executed as you type them", you have expressions, variables
and instant feedback. Among them the whirl as you realise that rm -rf
shouldn't be taking this long...

  Dean
-- 
Dean Wilson http://www.unixdaemon.net
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[alex]

On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 15:43, Shevek wrote:
> I then got bored and started programming it. I think my knowledge of
> Perl (native) is complete.

I wonder if Damian would make such a claim...

> My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of 
> programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you 
> type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions, 
> and therefore they cannot program.

Understanding a program as a sequence of instructions does seem like a
rather old fashioned way of thinking.

But then I thought Perl was post-modern?

alex

-- 
alex <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[the hatter]

On 13 Mar 2003, alex wrote:

> On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 15:43, Shevek wrote:

> > My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of
> > programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you
> > type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions,
> > and therefore they cannot program.
>
> Understanding a program as a sequence of instructions does seem like a
> rather old fashioned way of thinking.
>
> But then I thought Perl was post-modern?

Retro is the new post-modern.  See the hordes of users (and possible
future programmers) revelling in the pointy-clicky web world, little do
they realise that the whizziest features they have are often the result of
just a few fairly trivial lines in some archaic-looking text-in-an-xterm.


the hatter

Undergraduate Decay (was Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6)

[Ian Brayshaw]

On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 15:43, Shevek wrote:
> My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of 
> programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you 
> type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions, 
> and therefore they cannot program.
> 
> I think that this is a major problem. I think that undergraduates are (in 
> general, specific cases excluded) a major problem. I think many things.

OK, I couldn't resist the flame bait...

I used to love being an undergrad, and being constantly reminded by the
older developers/members of staff, about our failings, and how we
weren't as good as the graduates before us, and how we never really "got
it". Bollocks to that, I say. if we didn't get it, what weren't they
teaching?

*sigh* The old school gave us BASIC, the new(er) school will give us
Perl6. Can't see much of a regression here.

... Right, got that out of my system. Sorry for the rant.

I do, however, agree with you Mr Shevek (despite my comments above).
I've seen too many "point'n'click" graduates who couldn't write
structured code to save their lives, and (more depressingly) can't see
why you'd want to ("What do you mean 'you write your code by
hand'?!?!"). I guess it's our (i.e. those who know about such things) to
help them out and show them basic principles. It's in our interest to
protect and develop our profession/passion/hobby/whatever. It's also in
our interest to start demanding (through work place requirements)
certain skills from our graduates. The universities/institutions usually
catch on.

Enough of my ramblings.


*wave*


Ian


-- 
s&&@[EMAIL PROTECTED]@##@@#&&&y&^#@&712&&&($;='z')&&s&(..)&0$1&g&&s&$&0&&&s&(.)([^01])&
$1x$2&xge&&($.='a')&&s&$&d4823604df80d7e51d7018b9&&&(@_=$...$;)&&undef$.;do
{s&(.)(.*)(.)&$..=$1.$3,$2&e}while(length);s&&$.&;$*=0;undef$.;$..=($_?$_[(
$*+=$_)[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]:$")foreach(map{hex}m&(..)&g);s&.*&$.$/&&&s&(\b.)&\U$1&go&&print

Re: regrouping lines of STDIN

[Jasper McCrea]

Nicholas Clark wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 04:04:54PM +, Jasper McCrea wrote:
> > The /g just removes the need for parantheses in the regex. ie
> >
> > ($bar) = /(foo)/
> >
> > is equivalent to:
> >
> > ($bar) =  /foo/g
> >
> > If $_ isn't too big, the latter is probably more efficient. I said probably.
> 
> use Benchmark;  # Recent experience with writing test programs for the
> use Benchmark;  # tutorial I gave at the German Perl workshop proved very
> use Benchmark;  # interesting. Conventional wisdom isn't always "right", or
> use Benchmark;  # at least clear cut enough to write small test cases
> use Benchmark;  # For example, I failed to write a program with $& that was.
> use Benchmark;  # slower than one with something like /(.*)/, and I found that
> use Benchmark;  # a regexp with /(...)/ capturing parentheses that are only used
> use Benchmark;  # for grouping actually was faster (in a tight test loop) than
> use Benchmark;  # using the "correct" non-capturing /(?:...)/
> use Benchmark;  # However, "normality" was restored once the //o flag was
> use Benchmark;  # used - then the (?:...) was faster. It appears that regexp
> use Benchmark;  # compilation time - even for just 2 more bytes "?:", is
> use Benchmark;  # significant

Something tells me you think I didn't use Benchmark here. I don't know why.

However I did use Benchmark, and while what I said seemed to be borne out, there
was bugger all difference in real terms. Anyone who wrote any code thinking
about whether one would be faster would already have wasted more time thinking
about it than would have been saved if the program ran until the end of time.
 
> There. Have I annoyed everyone with my (non) subliminal message.
> 
> And use a profiler first to work out where your slowness is.
> It saves you optimising the already fast things, and should get you to
> the pub sooner. (Or whatever else turns you on)

I agree. Pub good. (But I'd rather spend the time breeding crabsticks)

Jasper
-- 
Kirk: This is a mystery, and I don't like mysteries. They give me a 
  bellyache, and I've got a beauty right now.

Learning regular expressions

[Peter Sergeant]

> If you've never heard of grep, glob, split, local/gmtime,  unlink,
> STDIN, ARGV, ... or seen a regular expression, it's all pretty 
> bewildering.   Even if you have, there's all the chop/chomp/splice/...
> cuteness to confuse.

This seems to be a recurring theme - regular expressions are hard. This
is not my experience. After QBasic, Perl was the first language I
learned, and regular expressions were a topic I found very easy (and
there were plenty of topics I found hard, I'm sure). I wonder why it is
some people find regexes such a mind-twister.

+Pete

-- 
A man of genius has been seldom ruined but by himself.
 -- Samuel Johnson

Re: Driving

[Simon Batistoni]

On 13/03/03 14:30 +, Robin Szemeti wrote:
>
> ahh 2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad. well done sir. Can I recommend you promptly 
> nip over to http://www.ixion.org.uk/ and join the mailing list ... it is to 
> motorcycling what london.pm is to programming  only less on topic.

"2 wheels good, 4 wheels bad" depends entirely on what you're doing.

Transporting my new desk from Neasden to Islington last night would
have been a right pain in the arse on any form of 2-wheeled transport.

As, for that matter, would be getting the 100-150 quids' worth of
booze we always seem to end up buying before we have a party.

Getting to work in the morning on a bike, on the other hand, is way
preferable to driving. Non-polluting, with no congestion charge and no
parking nightmare either.

Re: Learning regular expressions

[Aaron Trevena]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Peter Sergeant wrote:
> > If you've never heard of grep, glob, split, local/gmtime,  unlink,
> > STDIN, ARGV, ... or seen a regular expression, it's all pretty
> > bewildering.   Even if you have, there's all the chop/chomp/splice/...
> > cuteness to confuse.
>
> This seems to be a recurring theme - regular expressions are hard. This
> is not my experience. After QBasic, Perl was the first language I
> learned, and regular expressions were a topic I found very easy (and
> there were plenty of topics I found hard, I'm sure). I wonder why it is
> some people find regexes such a mind-twister.

I think there are two causes of this :
 - people don't see a regex as a function (something familar to every
language) they see it as some kind of magic and fear it because it is
different to what they have done before.
 - some of the newer (weaker ;) generation lack practice of the
traditional problem space that programming has applied to - processing
text and data, I think I can program quite well because I find pattern
matching and finding relatively easy so regular expressions make perfect
sense, newer programmers focus on mouse clicks, using objects and xml to
get what they want out of an xml structure or using a cursor with methods
to fetch data.

The latter are the kind of people who are used to perhaps building ASP
type pages where the programming consists of calling a load of functions
inside some html, no structure, no text handling - and they do have to
write application logic its usually horrible twisted spagetti or embedded
into stored_procedures in even more hideous code.

A.


-- 
Aaron J Trevena - Perl Hacker, Kung Fu Geek, Internet Consultant
AutoDia --- Automatic UML and HTML Specifications from Perl, C++
and Any Datasource with a Handler. http://droogs.org/autodia

Re: Learning regular expressions

[Adam C Auden]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Peter Sergeant wrote:

> This seems to be a recurring theme - regular expressions are hard. This
> is not my experience. After QBasic, Perl was the first language I
> learned, and regular expressions were a topic I found very easy (and
> there were plenty of topics I found hard, I'm sure). I wonder why it is
> some people find regexes such a mind-twister.

Not sure you can give a complete answer to this one, however I for one
find regular expressions tricky due to the lack of decent docs available
for them - particularly lack of examples to work from.

Now I know I should just go and buy a book, however if anyone has any
links to sites which they have found of use it would be much appreciated.

Other then this, whilst regular expressions can be very powerful tools,
they are not the most accessible (Write Once, Read Never is often the case
for particularly complex ones) which makes the routine of reading other
people's code to learn how it works a trickier one to approach.

Having spent most of today wielding sed I think I'm slowly getting the
hang of them, but my knowledge is only a small subset I am sure.  RegExs
are a brick wall I will continue to bash my head against, however I don't
see the learning curve getting any easier.

A.

--
aca114

Re: Learning regular expressions

[Lusercop]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 04:24:16PM +, Peter Sergeant wrote:
> This seems to be a recurring theme - regular expressions are hard. This
> is not my experience. After QBasic, Perl was the first language I

 (apart from the qbasic bit)

-- 
Lusercop.net - LARTing Lusers everywhere since 2002

[OT] Magazines

[Dave Cross]

[ apologies if this appears twice. i'm sure i remember typing
it this morning, but there seems to be no evidence to support
this ]

I've got almost complete collections of the UK magazines "Linux
Format" and "Linux Magazine" and most of the last 3 or 4 years
of "Linux Journal" and "Web Techniques" (aka "New Architect").
I've decided that they take up too much space and I never use
them as the useful articles are all on the web anyway.

So, they'll all be off to the tip a week on Sunday. Alternatively
they are free to anyone who wants to pick them up from my house
before then.

Dave...

-- 


"Let me see you make decisions, without your television"
   - Depeche Mode (Stripped)

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Dave Cross]

From: Damian Conway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 3/13/03 11:22:58 AM

> Piers Cawley wrote:
>
>>> ...Piers is perfectly capable of coding equally 
>>> cleverly in Python, or Java, or Pascal or any other 
>>> language.
>>>
>>> ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> Frankly, Piers would rather stick his nuts in a blender 
>> than program in either Python, Java or Pascal thank you 
>> very much.
>
> Now you're just being silly.
>
> I mean, where would they find a blender big enough???
>
> ;-)

Thank you both for that mental image!

Dave...

-- 


"Let me see you make decisions, without your television"
   - Depeche Mode (Stripped)

Re: regrouping lines of STDIN

[Adam Spiers]

Jasper McCrea ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I agree. Pub good. (But I'd rather spend the time breeding crabsticks)

That was an obscure reference to Harry Hill, for those who don't have
to suffer a flatmate with zany TV taste.  OK, I have to admit it was
pretty funny...

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Dave Cross]

From: Damian Conway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 3/13/03 11:22:58 AM

> Piers Cawley wrote:
>
>>> ...Piers is perfectly capable of coding equally 
>>> cleverly in Python, or Java, or Pascal or any other 
>>> language.
>>>
>>> ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> Frankly, Piers would rather stick his nuts in a blender 
>> than program in either Python, Java or Pascal thank you 
>> very much.
>
> Now you're just being silly.
>
> I mean, where would they find a blender big enough???
>
> ;-)

Thank you both for that mental image!

Dave...

-- 


"Let me see you make decisions, without your television"
   - Depeche Mode (Stripped)

[OT] Magazines

[Dave Cross]

[ apologies if this appears twice. i'm sure i remember typing
it this morning, but there seems to be no evidence to support
this ]

I've got almost complete collections of the UK magazines "Linux
Format" and "Linux Magazine" and most of the last 3 or 4 years
of "Linux Journal" and "Web Techniques" (aka "New Architect").
I've decided that they take up too much space and I never use
them as the useful articles are all on the web anyway.

So, they'll all be off to the tip a week on Sunday. Alternatively
they are free to anyone who wants to pick them up from my house
before then.

Dave...

-- 


"Let me see you make decisions, without your television"
   - Depeche Mode (Stripped)

Re: Learning regular expressions

[Luis Campos de Carvalho]

> On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Peter Sergeant wrote:
> > [...] I wonder why it is
> > some people find regexes such a mind-twister.

> From: "Adam C Auden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:05 PM
> Not sure you can give a complete answer to this one,
> however I for one find regular expressions tricky due
> to the lack of decent docs available for them -
> particularly lack of examples to work from.

  I disagree. Regexps are quite well documented. There is even a manpage
exclusively dedicated to it. =-]

  I think that Regexps are hard to learn because the most part of the folks
that aren't too much scared to learn it just lack the essential and
unavoidable compiler theory where regexp lays its foundations. IMHO, its
simply impossible learn good quality regexp use unless you have good regular
grammars theory before.

> Other then this, whilst regular expressions can
> be very powerful tools, they are not the most
> accessible (Write Once, Read Never is often the
> case for particularly complex ones) which makes the
> routine of reading other people's code to learn
> how it works a trickier one to approach.

  Sorry, I disagree on you again. =-]
  Folks that write regexps and do not optimize source code for reading
(e.g.: using the 'x' option) are building a maintenance nightmare. Regexps
are as powerfull as dynamite: you should handle them with care, or you will
blow everything up soon or later. =-]
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  Luis Campos de Carvalho
  Computer Science Student
  OCP DBA Oracle & Unix Sys Admin
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Amazon.co.uk

[Alex McLintock]

It seems like you can now access Amazon.co.uk with a webservices interface 
similar to amazon.com

I will probably be investigating this next week. If anyone wants to work 
with me on this, or just wants to find out how to do it after I investigate 
then give me a shout.

Alex

I think this is the URL

http://associates.amazon.com/exec/panama/associates/ntg/browse/-/1067662/086-9393398-4972229



Available for java/perl/C++/web development in London, UK or nearby.
Apache FOP, Cocoon, Turbine, Struts,XSL:FO, XML, Tomcat, JSP
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/

Re: Learning regular expressions

[Peter Sergeant]

>   I disagree. Regexps are quite well documented. There is even a manpage
> exclusively dedicated to it. =-]

Though actually most of the docs used to be split between perlop and
perlre, neither of which are friendly pieces of text. I believe this
situation has ameliorated a little, but, certainly the docs were
traditionally kinda sucky.

>   I think that Regexps are hard to learn because the most part of the folks
> that aren't too much scared to learn it just lack the essential and
> unavoidable compiler theory where regexp lays its foundations. IMHO, its
> simply impossible learn good quality regexp use unless you have good regular
> grammars theory before.

No, that's WRONG. Again, I can only give myself as an example, but, I
had no compiler theory or regular grammars theory. Regular expressions
MAKE SENSE - in (again) my humble experience, it tends to be people who
started with C or somesuch language who have the most difficulty with
them. Go figure.

+Pete

-- 
Much may be made of a Scotchman, if he be caught young.
 -- Samuel Johnson

Re: Amazon.co.uk

[Dave Hodgkinson]

On Thu, 2003-03-13 at 18:38, Alex McLintock wrote:
> It seems like you can now access Amazon.co.uk with a webservices interface 
> similar to amazon.com
> 
> I will probably be investigating this next week. If anyone wants to work 
> with me on this, or just wants to find out how to do it after I investigate 
> then give me a shout.
> 
> Alex
> 
> I think this is the URL
> 
> http://associates.amazon.com/exec/panama/associates/ntg/browse/-/1067662/086-9393398-4972229
> 


There's a CPAN module opportunity there...

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: [OT] Magazines

[Greg McCarroll]

* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> 
> [ apologies if this appears twice. i'm sure i remember typing
> it this morning, but there seems to be no evidence to support
> this ]
> 
> I've got almost complete collections of the UK magazines "Linux
> Format" and "Linux Magazine" and most of the last 3 or 4 years
> of "Linux Journal" and "Web Techniques" (aka "New Architect").
> I've decided that they take up too much space and I never use
> them as the useful articles are all on the web anyway.
> 
> So, they'll all be off to the tip a week on Sunday. Alternatively
> they are free to anyone who wants to pick them up from my house
> before then.
> 

if nobody else wants them i might have be interested, however not
before sunday - this would be so much simpler if you still drank as i
could just bring a bottle of calvados round as payment and we could
drink that

sheesh, i have no idea how to arrange collection, so please give them
away if its hassle.

Greg


-- 
*** ***
***   Email address has changed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Please   ***
***   update your email address book.   ***
*** ***
Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/
   jabber://[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Chris Benson]

> On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:43:50PM +, Shevek wrote:
> > My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of 
> > programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you 
> > type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions, 
> > and therefore they cannot program.

and On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 04:59:49PM +, Dean wrote:
 
> I would have thought any of the Unix shells were a "system where
> commands are executed as you type them", you have expressions, variables
> and instant feedback. 

I think that's the point: too many "programmers" have never seen a Unix
shell ... and maybe only see a DOS prompt when things go wrong :-)

>   Among them the whirl as you realise that rm -rf
> shouldn't be taking this long...

Ah, that time-stopping, stomach-dropping, splicter-clenching moment :-)
-- 
Chris Benson

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Randy J. Ray]

>   Among them the whirl as you realise that rm -rf
> shouldn't be taking this long...
Ah, that time-stopping, stomach-dropping, splicter-clenching moment :-)
Right up there with the dual realization that not only did you just type
"kill 1" instead of "kill %1", but that you're root, as well.
Randy
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.rjray.org http://www.svsm.org
Any spammers auto-extracting addresses from this message will definitely want
to include [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Paul Makepeace]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:59:52PM -0800, Randy J. Ray wrote:
> >Ah, that time-stopping, stomach-dropping, splicter-clenching moment :-)
> 
> Right up there with the dual realization that not only did you just type
> "kill 1" instead of "kill %1", but that you're root, as well.

What, you're running on physical hardware? D'oh :-)

I'm quite rapidly becoming a fan of User Mode Linux especially now that
the Separate Kernel Address Space patch is out.

Toys:
  http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/uses.html
  http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net/skas.html
  http://uml.openconsultancy.com/paper.php

Apart from some of the wacky network bridging business it's much simpler
than I'd irrationally feared.

Paul

-- 
Paul Makepeace ... http://paulm.com/

"What is movement? It is only for me to know and for you to wonder."
   -- http://paulm.com/toys/surrealism/

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Kåre Olai Lindbach]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:59:52 -0800, you ("Randy J. Ray"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:

>> >   Among them the whirl as you realise that rm -rf
>> > shouldn't be taking this long...
>> 
>> Ah, that time-stopping, stomach-dropping, splicter-clenching moment :-)
>
>Right up there with the dual realization that not only did you just type
>"kill 1" instead of "kill %1", but that you're root, as well.

... my excuse at such a moment is that I am lucky I only killed _one_,
and not "2034"  ;-)

-- 

(Well, one should not joke with this in such time we have around us at
this moment ...)

-- 
mvh/Regards
Kåre Olai Lindbach

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Randy J. Ray]

> Right up there with the dual realization that not only did you just type
> "kill 1" instead of "kill %1", but that you're root, as well.
What, you're running on physical hardware? D'oh :-)

I'm quite rapidly becoming a fan of User Mode Linux especially now that
the Separate Kernel Address Space patch is out.
Oh... this predates the first Linux release by about 4 years :-).

Randy
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.rjray.org http://www.svsm.org
Any spammers auto-extracting addresses from this message will definitely want
to include [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Shevek]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Dean wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 03:43:50PM +, Shevek wrote:
> > My opinion on programming (this week) is that the modern generation of 
> > programmer has never used any system where commands are executed as you 
> > type them, and thus they have no concept of a sequence of instructions, 
> > and therefore they cannot program.
> 
> I would have thought any of the Unix shells were a "system where
> commands are executed as you type them", you have expressions, variables
> and instant feedback. Among them the whirl as you realise that rm -rf
> shouldn't be taking this long...

And the number of undergraduates who actually know how to operate even a 
Unix shell is approximately nil.

S.

-- 
Shevekhttp://www.anarres.org/
I am the Borg. http://design.anarres.org/

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Chris Ball]

>> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:21:49, Shevek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

   > And the number of undergraduates who actually know how to operate
   > even a Unix shell is approximately nil.



Can we stop this stupid thread now?  Undergrads - much like postgrads
and people who didn't go to university at all - are a decidedly varied
group of people, some of whom have been programming with Unix and Perl
(and on this list!) for years, and don't appreciate the stereotyping.

- Chris.
-- 
$a="printf.net";  Chris Ball | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.$a | finger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Damian Conway]

alex wrote:

I then got bored and started programming it. I think my knowledge of
Perl (native) is complete.
I wonder if Damian would make such a claim...
Most definitely not. Nor, I suspect would Larry.

Perl is like quantum physics, or the opposite sex, or the films of David 
Lynch...if you think you understand them, then you almost certainly *don't*.

;-)

Damian

Re: Perl 6 Apocalypse 6

[Damian Conway]

Piers Cawley wrote:

Now you're just being silly.

I mean, where would they find a blender big enough???
You are a Very Bad Man. 
Why thank-you, sir!
And I must certainly extend the same high compliment to you.


Damian

Re: [OT] Magazines

[Greg McCarroll]

* Greg McCarroll ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> * Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > 
> > [ apologies if this appears twice. i'm sure i remember typing
> > it this morning, but there seems to be no evidence to support
> > this ]
> > 
> > I've got almost complete collections of the UK magazines "Linux
> > Format" and "Linux Magazine" and most of the last 3 or 4 years
> > of "Linux Journal" and "Web Techniques" (aka "New Architect").
> > I've decided that they take up too much space and I never use
> > them as the useful articles are all on the web anyway.
> > 
> > So, they'll all be off to the tip a week on Sunday. Alternatively
> > they are free to anyone who wants to pick them up from my house
> > before then.
> > 
> 
> if nobody else wants them i might have be interested, however not
> before sunday - this would be so much simpler if you still drank as i
> could just bring a bottle of calvados round as payment and we could
> drink that
> 
> sheesh, i have no idea how to arrange collection, so please give them
> away if its hassle.
> 

(sorry folks that should have been a private email)

-- 
*** ***
***   Email address has changed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Please   ***
***   update your email address book.   ***
*** ***
Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.org.uk/~gem/
   jabber://[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Magazines

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Greg" == Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Greg> (sorry folks that should have been a private email)

Yeah, doesn't it suck when a list sets a reply-to?

... http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

Please fix this.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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