RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
I recently went to a talk by Stanford Law Professor and media critic Lawrence Lessig where he said that in terms of practical real world copyright law as it is being applied these days, successful defense essentially depends on how much money you have to spend on litigation. Kind of shocking to hear a distinguished law professor admit that. At 09:56 AM 8/5/2003 +0100, Ryan Snowden wrote: Mark All as Read |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 05 August 2003 08:53 |To: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? | | | the jungle producer adam f replayed a big chuck of a bob james | track (nautilus i think it was) and turned it into a jungle |tune that | got released on a major and AFAIK didnt get sample clearance. | |Hmm. I can't believe that - big labels are usually pretty |weary of things like that - even if the track is perceived as |underground, or the sample is well disguised. It's far cheaper |to pay for the sample than to face the consequences after. | |anyway, I was wondering - why all the fuss even if Rolando |used a sample? some of UR's finest moments have pretty big |chunks of samples in. | |does it matter? | |oh, and one more thing! Mike Pickering - yep, OK, he did |M-People, but I think he's made his contribution - 52nd Street |anyone? Good Factory band, innovative etc. Give him a break | |my 2p's worth anyway. | |_ | |- End of message text | |This e-mail is sent by the above named in their |individual, non-business capacity and is not on |behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. | |PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming |e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and |telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you |give your consent to such monitoring | | |
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
i guess that's the same as many areas of law on 6/8/03 4:10 PM, James Hurlbut at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I recently went to a talk by Stanford Law Professor and media critic Lawrence Lessig where he said that in terms of practical real world copyright law as it is being applied these days, successful defense essentially depends on how much money you have to spend on litigation. Kind of shocking to hear a distinguished law professor admit that.
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
-- Original Message -- From: Jernej Marusic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well from listening to this strings for a couple of times, I can tell that at the beginning they start the same as jaguar but than it gets different really quickly. Than at another point there's another part that sounds the same as jaguar strings for a bit longer but than gets different again. So Rolando probably did get inspiration from this track, but even if he did he changed the strings quite allot beyond those couple starting notes, so he deffinitely didn't sampel them. no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. peace, Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Matt MacQueen wrote: no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. Just to clarify I mean in Jaguar I bet they were PLAYED live on a keyboard (which has a string patch or whatever), not played on an actual real analog stringed instrument (a la Metro Area or Kelley Polar Quartet). peace Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
- Original Message - From: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 12:23 AM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. That, and they sound like synthetic strings. I mean, they could be a sample, but it sounds very 'factory preset' to me. It would probably be a whole lot more effort than its worth to lift that particular string sound out of a track that has no breakdowns. Also (since we all seem to agree that if it were sampled, he re-played some of the melodies), sampling those strings at any point in time in the Carino track you would be getting a sample of a full chord, and when that is transposed up and down the keyboard, you will get a different, detuned effect than if it were one note transposed up and down the keyboard. For instance, a C Minor chord would be C, E flat, G, B flat, and if you sample that, then play an E in the keyboard, you would get E, G flat, A, B flat, rather than 'E', and G flat and B flat are not in the C minor scale - thus the perceived detuning. Or something like that (distant memories of unused musical theory not enjoying this rare excercise)... ;) I'm sure you all know what a detuned sample sounds like transposed up and down a keyboard, and it wouldn't work like Jaguar sounds. Think: Pepe Braddock or Theo Parrish samples rather than Octave One string orchestrations. Pepe Braddock or Theo Parrish couldn't have taken the Deep Burnt/UGE 003 sample from Freddie Hubbard's 'Little Sunflower' and played bits of that up and down the keyboard without making it sounds really bent. Tristan === Text/Mixes/Pics: http://www.phonopsia.co.uk Music: http://www.mp313.com Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] lnoize.com cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 05:55 PM Hi, If it's not a sample there shouldn't be any problem. It's not possible to copyright just a fragment of a melody really, as far as I have ever heard. The essential question would have to be raised, does that string line encompass the essence of both songs, or if the additional parts in each song make them essentially two different compositions. After all, no one has ever claimed a jazz musician has to get copyright clearance when they quote a fragment of a popular song in the middle of their solo. That is arguably fair use, but I've never heard of a court case over this issue. By the way, in classical music the concept of theme and variations is based precisely on writing a new composition over someone's melody, and there are many other examples of borrowing melodies too (check Mahler's first symphony or Ives!). So I think history would support an argument of fair use of a melody in a new compositions, as long as the new composition is not a derivative work, which would be protected by copyright law. Of course, who knows what you could get a judge to buy who had little understanding of music. _Dave -- Original Message - Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:08:14 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're kidding right? A coincidence? Everything in that string bit is in Jaguar -even how the notes waver before the descending notes come in. This more than sounds a lot like it - the strings in Jaguar clearly is a sample of that track with maybe a tempo change (and maybe extra accompaniment over and under to fatten up the sound). Or, it was reperformed by Rolando using the same keyboard practically note for note - would be too many coincidences to be a coincidence if you know what I mean. TCoy probably wouldn't do anything about it because of the use of Eric B. Rakim, in the Carino track, would cost a lot more to licence and TCoy would most likely get sued in turn if Eric B Rakim knew about it. So, I'm sure the producer of Carino, if they are alive still, are keeping real quiet and not bothering with taking any action against Rolando if UR didn't clear it. This is all a moot point if Rolando/UR cleared it all with the owners of Carino. Whether that be the performance and the publishing (if it was a sample) or just the publishing (if Rolando re-performed the section used). Either way, both tunes are cool and I do hope that UR has got their bases covered on this. MEK Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] .nl cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 01:13 PM On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but i think that it so more a coincident, i once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until i heard them played bak to back and i had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
so let me get all of this correct...according to everyone here on this list the general opinion is that UR and rolando sampled this TCOY track and did not make it them selfs.man with all of the bullshit that surrounded the jaguar you think someone else would have dug this up if it was truebut its probably not true. the last time i was in detroit i talked with mike for a good long time like 7 hours...and its kinda funny we talked about the jaguar...and he never mentioned that he or rolando sampled a record to make it...i mean he told me about alot of other elements in the trackunless of course he was lying ..in order for UR to have sampled that track then it would mean that Mad Mike and the rest of UR were lying to everyone in the world.I THINK NOTif the track sounds like it then its probably a coincidence ...but i doubt that UR would put on this elaborate hoax to fool everyone.lets be real...i mean UR has been this whole timethe fact that people think UR sampled this record in paticular makes me laugh.. i have heard that same beginning of the melody ALOT from various tracks from the 70's 80's...as well as the general arrangements in that trackmy opinion...and maybe you can all laugh at me when someone sue's UR ...but i don't think it will happen michael www.renegaderhythms.com Matt MacQueen wrote: On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Matt MacQueen wrote: no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. Just to clarify I mean in Jaguar I bet they were PLAYED live on a keyboard (which has a string patch or whatever), not played on an actual real analog stringed instrument (a la Metro Area or Kelley Polar Quartet). peace Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Well, i wont argue about the synth that sounds like roland track. But listen the piano line instead Think a little bit... Ok, now listen Sweet D track on Trax records (TX119), released in 1986. . . . Definitively has less groove strengh, but still ! So it might goes in favor of the hypothesis that both (tcoy rolando) get influenced by another track previously done. Mick Pickering, sure he's alive! He came over here @ the Rex Club in May. For the Haçienda party. With Dave Haslam and Laurent Garnier too...Such a wonderful night!! - KiDD*e* - Original Message - From: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:48 PM Subject: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar W
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
my thoughts exactly... peace On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 07:06 PM, MM wrote: so let me get all of this correct...according to everyone here on this list the general opinion is that UR and rolando sampled this TCOY track and did not make it them selfs.man with all of the bullshit that surrounded the jaguar you think someone else would have dug this up if it was truebut its probably not true. the last time i was in detroit i talked with mike for a good long time like 7 hours...and its kinda funny we talked about the jaguar...and he never mentioned that he or rolando sampled a record to make it...i mean he told me about alot of other elements in the trackunless of course he was lying ..in order for UR to have sampled that track then it would mean that Mad Mike and the rest of UR were lying to everyone in the world.I THINK NOTif the track sounds like it then its probably a coincidence ...but i doubt that UR would put on this elaborate hoax to fool everyone.lets be real...i mean UR has been this whole timethe fact that people think UR sampled this record in paticular makes me laugh.. i have heard that same beginning of the melody ALOT from various tracks from the 70's 80's...as well as the general arrangements in that trackmy opinion...and maybe you can all laugh at me when someone sue's UR ...but i don't think it will happen michael www.renegaderhythms.com Matt MacQueen wrote: On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Matt MacQueen wrote: no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. Just to clarify I mean in Jaguar I bet they were PLAYED live on a keyboard (which has a string patch or whatever), not played on an actual real analog stringed instrument (a la Metro Area or Kelley Polar Quartet). peace Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] lnoize.com cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 05:55 PM Hi, If it's not a sample there shouldn't be any problem. It's not possible to copyright just a fragment of a melody really, as far as I have ever heard. The essential question would have to be raised, does that string line encompass the essence of both songs, or if the additional parts in each song make them essentially two different compositions. After all, no one has ever claimed a jazz musician has to get copyright clearance when they quote a fragment of a popular song in the middle of their solo. That is arguably fair use, but I've never heard of a court case over this issue. By the way, in classical music the concept of theme and variations is based precisely on writing a new composition over someone's melody, and there are many other examples of borrowing melodies too (check Mahler's first symphony or Ives!). So I think history would support an argument of fair use of a melody in a new compositions, as long as the new composition is not a derivative work, which would be protected by copyright law. Of course, who knows what you could get a judge to buy who had little understanding of music. _Dave -- Original Message - Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:08:14 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're kidding right? A coincidence? Everything in that string bit is in Jaguar -even how the notes waver before the descending notes come in. This more than sounds a lot like it - the strings in Jaguar clearly is a sample of that track with maybe a tempo change (and maybe extra accompaniment over and under to fatten up the sound). Or, it was reperformed by Rolando using the same keyboard practically note for note - would be too many coincidences to be a coincidence if you know what I mean. TCoy probably wouldn't do anything about it because of the use of Eric B. Rakim, in the Carino track, would cost a lot more to licence and TCoy would most likely get sued in turn if Eric B Rakim knew about it. So, I'm sure the producer of Carino, if they are alive still, are keeping real quiet and not bothering with taking any action against Rolando if UR didn't clear it. This is all a moot point if Rolando/UR cleared it all with the owners of Carino. Whether that be the performance and the publishing (if it was a sample) or just the publishing (if Rolando re-performed the section used). Either way, both tunes are cool and I do hope that UR has got their bases covered on this. MEK Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] .nl cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 01:13 PM On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but i think that it so more a coincident, i once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until i heard them played bak to back and i had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Here's an excerpt of the sweet D track : http://www.kiddyraver.com/sweetd.ram Its close, but not the same either. - KiDD*e* - Original Message - From: KiDDy*RaVeR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:08 AM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Well, i wont argue about the synth that sounds like roland track. But listen the piano line instead Think a little bit... Ok, now listen Sweet D track on Trax records (TX119), released in 1986. . . . Definitively has less groove strengh, but still ! So it might goes in favor of the hypothesis that both (tcoy rolando) get influenced by another track previously done. Mick Pickering, sure he's alive! He came over here @ the Rex Club in May. For the Haçienda party. With Dave Haslam and Laurent Garnier too...Such a wonderful night!! - KiDD*e* - Original Message - From: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:48 PM Subject: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar W
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Uh what? I'm not sure what part of the song you think is close - the piano line, the synthesized string line? believe me, it's not close at all (legally speaking) if you're talking about the piano line - it's not close enough to warrant any discussion about it being similar to Jaguar. MEK KiDDy*RaVeR [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313 313@hyperreal.org aver.comcc: Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 07:49 PM Please respond to KiDDy*RaVeR Here's an excerpt of the sweet D track : http://www.kiddyraver.com/sweetd.ram Its close, but not the same either. - KiDD*e* - Original Message - From: KiDDy*RaVeR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:08 AM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Well, i wont argue about the synth that sounds like roland track. But listen the piano line instead Think a little bit... Ok, now listen Sweet D track on Trax records (TX119), released in 1986. . . . Definitively has less groove strengh, but still ! So it might goes in favor of the hypothesis that both (tcoy rolando) get influenced by another track previously done. Mick Pickering, sure he's alive! He came over here @ the Rex Club in May. For the Haçienda party. With Dave Haslam and Laurent Garnier too...Such a wonderful night!! - KiDD*e* - Original Message - From: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:48 PM Subject: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar W
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Devil's Advocate - If you sampled a piece of music but never cleared it legally - and, knowing this, if it was discovered that you did sample the music and it leaked out you ran the very great risk of being sued - especially if you had a fairly high profile court case over that same piece of music - would *you* tell anyone that you used a uncleared sample in the music? since I wasn't there during your conversation I don't know exactly what you talked about except for what you mentioned below, however, I noticed that you said, he told me about alot of other elements in the track. So did he not tell you about _this_ particular element? I'll proceed then to ask if he didn't could it be because it was a sample? end Devil's Advocate personally, I don't care if it's Mad Mike or George Michael - if it was a sample, some is owed some money. It should be a level playing field. I'm not a musicologist but I do deal with this sh*t every day and they sound suspiciously similar. Accidental or not - that's not a defense anymore. If you pull onto a road and don't see a speed limit sign and then decide to floor the gas pedal, that doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law. If you have accidentally infringed upon someone else's copyright - the prosecution has the right to ask that you remove all offending material from the market and you can still owe them a truck load of money. MEK MM [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] thms.comcc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/04/03 07:06 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? so let me get all of this correct...according to everyone here on this list the general opinion is that UR and rolando sampled this TCOY track and did not make it them selfs.man with all of the bullshit that surrounded the jaguar you think someone else would have dug this up if it was truebut its probably not true. the last time i was in detroit i talked with mike for a good long time like 7 hours...and its kinda funny we talked about the jaguar...and he never mentioned that he or rolando sampled a record to make it...i mean he told me about alot of other elements in the trackunless of course he was lying ..in order for UR to have sampled that track then it would mean that Mad Mike and the rest of UR were lying to everyone in the world.I THINK NOTif the track sounds like it then its probably a coincidence ...but i doubt that UR would put on this elaborate hoax to fool everyone.lets be real...i mean UR has been this whole timethe fact that people think UR sampled this record in paticular makes me laugh.. i have heard that same beginning of the melody ALOT from various tracks from the 70's 80's...as well as the general arrangements in that trackmy opinion...and maybe you can all laugh at me when someone sue's UR ...but i don't think it will happen michael www.renegaderhythms.com Matt MacQueen wrote: On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Matt MacQueen wrote: no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. Just to clarify I mean in Jaguar I bet they were PLAYED live on a keyboard (which has a string patch or whatever), not played on an actual real analog stringed instrument (a la Metro Area or Kelley Polar Quartet). peace Matt MacQueen
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Hate to disagree, but it actually seems obvious to me that the Jaguar strings weren't sampled from this. For a start off, as I believe someone observed, there would need to be some sort of breakdown where the strings were unaccompanied. Not sure what's meant by 'cleaned up' here, but if you were thinking that the drum track etc. could be removed through EQs or stereo phase inversion or something then, on the basis of my experience at least, that would be basically impossible. Secondly, the synth patch sounds different to me, although admittedly use of effects (some distortion? the Jaguar strings are rawer and punchier to my ears) could maybe create the sound that's on Jaguar. The elements of the riff that are identical are the twiddly bit (i think mordant might be the word?) that introduces them and just one instance in the track when it's followed by the same intervals as you find in Jaguar (although even then the rhythm is slightly different). The rest bears no relation in my opinion. One implication of this limit to the similarities is that even if you could cleanly sample those strings, it'd be a hell of a lot more bother cutting and pasting and pitch shifting bits of the sample to end up with what you've got in Jaguar than just playing them in yourself, so I think we can rule out Rolando sampling... So did he copy it? Well, the core musical idea here seems to me to be that set of intervals I mentioned above. It's three notes, and it's not exactly what you'd call a feat of lateral thinking to come up with twiddly bit if you were playing around with that idea. I guess this is the way I understand the suggestion that there's something 'generic' about the riff... The impression I get is maybe of something that's been developed by going for fairly generic and conventional musical options out of all the ways that little melodic hook could have been expanded upon. So I don't think it would be a TOTALLY freakish occurence if Rolando had never heard this thing and came up with his string line independently, but I admit that's not too likely. The rest of Rolando's string line is made up of the same idea subjected to certain chord changes, which, as it happens, are not found in this other record. I think the reason the similarity really hits you is because that twiddly bit is so prominent and so distinctive, so despite there not being much else that's the same, it's hard to escape the comparison. Maybe he was in fact inspired by this piece of music (given all the things in Jaguar and even the string part in question that aren't similar to this record, I don't think that's an unreasonable way of putting it). Maybe it was a subconscious thing, which I don't believe is as silly as it might sound. It's very easy to hear something once and later on hear in your head some sort of musical idea that you can't place or to let the music you're writing be affected by some such idea that's lurking in your brain without you realising it. More important than all of this toss though - no, I don't know why I bothered writing this email either - is that (hopefully) no-one gives a french-connection-uk. Knights of the Jaguar is great tune, and what's wrong with nicking stuff anyway, eh? Surely you have be at least 50+ these days (possibly also with a large back catalogue to your name) to believe in copyright law? (By the way, in case you hadn't guessed I'm being tongue in cheek; no offence to older list members, who I'm sure are way too 'down' to take the 'kids these days have no idea of their own' line anyway.) All the best, you eagle-eared sample spotters (I think another animal is needed here), Robin To me it sounds like he cleaned up the sample plus gave it a tempo adjustment or played it note for note (but it's so close it sounds like a sample) - it's quite obvious a lift from that tune. And we were all able to ID right away - nobody has said - gee that sounds like the strings used in Strings of Life - no we all said Knights of the Jaguar so it's not generic at all. It's a prosecuting copyright lawyer's wish come true The legal test is whether a sample is recognizable. It is not true that you are allowed to use up to 4 bars or 10 seconds or any part of another song. MEK Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org cc: 08/04/03 01:08 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Michael, Nahhh. While I respect the levels that you have thought through all of this, all your analysis is based on the (weak, IMHO) assumption that Jaguar DOES sample that TCOY track, and I'm arguing that it *DOESN'T*. So everything else you conclude is based on that assumption, and it's not an assumption I buy whatsoever, so the rest of it to me is a moot point. I mean, go dig out Jaguar again and tell me that's a sample... IMHO there is no way. Have you ever tried to sample stuff and use it in a track? There's extraordinary difficulty in finding a clean enough version of that string part of the track to be able to sample it and make Jaguar with it. Still, everyone's ears are subjective and it's something neither of us can conclusively prove one way or the other. :) cheers Matt MacQueen On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 07:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Devil's Advocate - If you sampled a piece of music but never cleared it legally - and, knowing this, if it was discovered that you did sample the music and it leaked out you ran the very great risk of being sued - especially if you had a fairly high profile court case over that same piece of music - would *you* tell anyone that you used a uncleared sample in the music? since I wasn't there during your conversation I don't know exactly what you talked about except for what you mentioned below, however, I noticed that you said, he told me about alot of other elements in the track. So did he not tell you about _this_ particular element? I'll proceed then to ask if he didn't could it be because it was a sample? end Devil's Advocate personally, I don't care if it's Mad Mike or George Michael - if it was a sample, some is owed some money. It should be a level playing field. I'm not a musicologist but I do deal with this sh*t every day and they sound suspiciously similar. Accidental or not - that's not a defense anymore. If you pull onto a road and don't see a speed limit sign and then decide to floor the gas pedal, that doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law. If you have accidentally infringed upon someone else's copyright - the prosecution has the right to ask that you remove all offending material from the market and you can still owe them a truck load of money. MEK MM [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] thms.comcc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/04/03 07:06 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? so let me get all of this correct...according to everyone here on this list the general opinion is that UR and rolando sampled this TCOY track and did not make it them selfs.man with all of the bullshit that surrounded the jaguar you think someone else would have dug this up if it was truebut its probably not true. the last time i was in detroit i talked with mike for a good long time like 7 hours...and its kinda funny we talked about the jaguar...and he never mentioned that he or rolando sampled a record to make it...i mean he told me about alot of other elements in the trackunless of course he was lying ..in order for UR to have sampled that track then it would mean that Mad Mike and the rest of UR were lying to everyone in the world.I THINK NOTif the track sounds like it then its probably a coincidence ...but i doubt that UR would put on this elaborate hoax to fool everyone.lets be real...i mean UR has been this whole timethe fact that people think UR sampled this record in paticular makes me laugh.. i have heard that same beginning of the melody ALOT from various tracks from the 70's 80's...as well as the general arrangements in that trackmy opinion...and maybe you can all laugh at me when someone sue's UR ...but i don't think it will happen michael www.renegaderhythms.com Matt MacQueen wrote: On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:23 PM, Matt MacQueen wrote: no one has mentioned the possibility that they both sampled strings from the same source and then flipped them differently. obviously this house track was made during a period of sample heavy marrs/coldcut influenced stuff. so its entirely possible the strings are from an old song and that they both sampled the same original track, just different parts and in different ways. Interesting theory. But I'd wager that the strings in Jaguar were PLAYED, and are not a sample to begin with. Esp. with that crazy solo at the end. Just to clarify I mean in Jaguar I bet they were PLAYED live on a keyboard (which has a string patch or whatever), not played on an actual real analog stringed instrument (a la Metro Area or Kelley Polar Quartet). peace Matt MacQueen
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
While technically this might be true, in reality almost ALL compositions are copyright violations under this basis. This is a built in limitation of the finite tonal system most commonly used, which just by chance is going to produce substantially similar patterns. Millions of songs share four notes in common. If this was enforced it would prove just how ludicrous and inadequate our notions of intellectual property really are. The question in my mind is, I suppose all jazz musicians use of quotation is legally parody; but, how do we know that the quote of another song was made with a humorous intent? How do we know they weren't just ripping off the original? I guess the less is, always claim your work is a parody if questioned. _Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:27 PM To: David Powers Cc: 313 list Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Damn where do I start with this - you need to learn a bit more about copyright issues, sampling and music law, and fair use: http://www.music-law.com/sampling.html There is also a rumor going around that you can use four notes of any song under the fair use doctrine. There is no four note rule in the copyright law. One note from a sound recording is a copyright violation. Saturday Night Live was sued for using the jingle, I Love New York which is only four notes. The test for infringement is whether the sample is substantially similar to the original. Remember, a judge or jury is the one who determines this and these people may be much less receptive to your music than your fans. My point is you cannot rely on fair use as a defense. _ http://law.freeadvice.com/intellectual_property/music_law/legality_sampl ing.htm Unauthorized sampling actually violates two potential legal rights. First, the instant you sample a portion of someone?s song (no matter how small), it constitutes a violation of the copyright in song itself - the C symbol - which is owned by the song writer or the music publisher. Second, sampling violates the sound recording copyright - the symbol - which is usually owned by the record company or recording artist. Thus, sampling without prior permission subjects the illegal copier to a copyright infringement in federal court by the original author (or publisher) and by the record company. __ http://law.freeadvice.com/intellectual_property/music_law/use_of_notes.h tm There are rumors that sampling only four notes is not copyright infringement because it is protected as fair use. This notion of reducing copyright infringement down to the number of notes uses, however, is simply wrong. If you sample a single note, beat, or line from a sound recording without permission, that constitutes copyright infringement. Under current US copyright law, unauthorized sampling - no matter how minimal or seemingly innocuous- is usually not considered fair use. Under US Copyright law, the true test for copyright infringement is not the number of notes sampled, but whether the sample is substantially similar to the original work. The other main questions is whether it should qualify as fair use. In short, if you engage in unauthorized sampling and get sued by the owners, don?t expect to prevail in court on a fair use defense if you use the songs commercially for your own private benefit. __ http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-a .html In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and transformative purpose such as to comment upon, criticize or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner. Another way of putting this is that fair use is a defense against infringement. If your use qualifies under the definition above, and as defined more specifically later in this chapter, then your use would not be considered an illegal infringement. So what is a transformative use? If this definition seems ambiguous or vague, be aware that millions of dollars in legal fees have been spent attempting to define what qualifies as a fair use. There are no hard-and-fast rules, only general rules and varying court decisions. That's because the judges and lawmakers who created the fair use exception did not want to limit the definition of fair use. They wanted it--like free speech--to have an expansive meaning that could be open to interpretation. Most fair use analysis falls into two categories: commentary and criticism; or parody. 1. Comment and Criticism If you are commenting upon or critiquing a copyrighted work--for instance, writing a book review -- fair use principles allow you to reproduce some of the work to achieve your purposes. Some examples of commentary and criticism include: * quoting a few lines from a Bob Dylan song in a music review * summarizing and quoting from a medical article on prostate cancer
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Ok I finally listened to this. The chance of Rolando ripping this off seems, to me, to be none. The ornament that begins both Jaguar and the other string part, is a CLICHÉ, easily found in many spanish sounding type songs, movie scores, mariachi trumpet parts, etc. Like I said just now, if we really prosecuted every substantially similar musical idea, there would be no music at all. All styles deal with a certain number of musical clichés or riffs that are substantially similar, those are the building blocks of music from which, hopefully, something more creative comes. The similarity between the two songs is very much on the surface and a coincidence, in my opinion. They both derive from a cliché that is the hallmark of some Spanish type music, and happen to use a similar string patch. _Dave -Original Message- From: Robin Howells [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 8:08 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Hate to disagree, but it actually seems obvious to me that the Jaguar strings weren't sampled from this. For a start off, as I believe someone observed, there would need to be some sort of breakdown where the strings were unaccompanied. Not sure what's meant by 'cleaned up' here, but if you were thinking that the drum track etc. could be removed through EQs or stereo phase inversion or something then, on the basis of my experience at least, that would be basically impossible. Secondly, the synth patch sounds different to me, although admittedly use of effects (some distortion? the Jaguar strings are rawer and punchier to my ears) could maybe create the sound that's on Jaguar. The elements of the riff that are identical are the twiddly bit (i think mordant might be the word?) that introduces them and just one instance in the track when it's followed by the same intervals as you find in Jaguar (although even then the rhythm is slightly different). The rest bears no relation in my opinion. One implication of this limit to the similarities is that even if you could cleanly sample those strings, it'd be a hell of a lot more bother cutting and pasting and pitch shifting bits of the sample to end up with what you've got in Jaguar than just playing them in yourself, so I think we can rule out Rolando sampling... So did he copy it? Well, the core musical idea here seems to me to be that set of intervals I mentioned above. It's three notes, and it's not exactly what you'd call a feat of lateral thinking to come up with twiddly bit if you were playing around with that idea. I guess this is the way I understand the suggestion that there's something 'generic' about the riff... The impression I get is maybe of something that's been developed by going for fairly generic and conventional musical options out of all the ways that little melodic hook could have been expanded upon. So I don't think it would be a TOTALLY freakish occurence if Rolando had never heard this thing and came up with his string line independently, but I admit that's not too likely. The rest of Rolando's string line is made up of the same idea subjected to certain chord changes, which, as it happens, are not found in this other record. I think the reason the similarity really hits you is because that twiddly bit is so prominent and so distinctive, so despite there not being much else that's the same, it's hard to escape the comparison. Maybe he was in fact inspired by this piece of music (given all the things in Jaguar and even the string part in question that aren't similar to this record, I don't think that's an unreasonable way of putting it). Maybe it was a subconscious thing, which I don't believe is as silly as it might sound. It's very easy to hear something once and later on hear in your head some sort of musical idea that you can't place or to let the music you're writing be affected by some such idea that's lurking in your brain without you realising it. More important than all of this toss though - no, I don't know why I bothered writing this email either - is that (hopefully) no-one gives a french-connection-uk. Knights of the Jaguar is great tune, and what's wrong with nicking stuff anyway, eh? Surely you have be at least 50+ these days (possibly also with a large back catalogue to your name) to believe in copyright law? (By the way, in case you hadn't guessed I'm being tongue in cheek; no offence to older list members, who I'm sure are way too 'down' to take the 'kids these days have no idea of their own' line anyway.) All the best, you eagle-eared sample spotters (I think another animal is needed here), Robin To me it sounds like he cleaned up the sample plus gave it a tempo adjustment or played it note for note (but it's so close it sounds like a sample) - it's quite obvious a lift from that tune. And we were all able to ID right away - nobody has said - gee that sounds like the strings used in Strings of Life
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
wait a minute.this is what i am saying .the jaguar is NOT sampled in my opinion, and everything i have figured out based on facts make me think that it has NOT been sampledits just my opinion if everyone wants to think that the Jaguar is sampled or copied ...let them think that .. i believe what we have here is a case of the way people play piano(synths and keyboards) and maybe subconscious influence .. what i really meant i guess...is if you have ever talked to mad mike about the jaguar you quickly realize that it wasn't just another track.it is a real spiritual track for everyone at UR cause of what it means to rolando , mike and crew.now after talking about it for a bit and realizing thati would find it REAL hard that it could be sampled knowing how important the record was to rolando thats all i am saying . i am not going to have a 10 email contest of words cause i will lose every time ...i am not the best writer on the list thats for sure i just think its one big coincidence .i mean more than one piano/keyboard player has hit the same 3 or 4 notes in a row i am sure..and i think its funny that it has taken up this much time on the list. michael www.renegaderhythms.com Matt MacQueen wrote: Michael, Nahhh. While I respect the levels that you have thought through all of this, all your analysis is based on the (weak, IMHO) assumption that Jaguar DOES sample that TCOY track, and I'm arguing that it *DOESN'T*. So everything else you conclude is based on that assumption, and it's not an assumption I buy whatsoever, so the rest of it to me is a moot point. I mean, go dig out Jaguar again and tell me that's a sample... IMHO there is no way. Have you ever tried to sample stuff and use it in a track? There's extraordinary difficulty in finding a clean enough version of that string part of the track to be able to sample it and make Jaguar with it. Still, everyone's ears are subjective and it's something neither of us can conclusively prove one way or the other. :) cheers Matt MacQueen On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 07:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Devil's Advocate - If you sampled a piece of music but never cleared it legally - and, knowing this, if it was discovered that you did sample the music and it leaked out you ran the very great risk of being sued - especially if you had a fairly high profile court case over that same piece of music - would *you* tell anyone that you used a uncleared sample in the music? since I wasn't there during your conversation I don't know exactly what you talked about except for what you mentioned below, however, I noticed that you said, he told me about alot of other elements in the track. So did he not tell you about _this_ particular element? I'll proceed then to ask if he didn't could it be because it was a sample? end Devil's Advocate personally, I don't care if it's Mad Mike or George Michael - if it was a sample, some is owed some money. It should be a level playing field. I'm not a musicologist but I do deal with this sh*t every day and they sound suspiciously similar. Accidental or not - that's not a defense anymore. If you pull onto a road and don't see a speed limit sign and then decide to floor the gas pedal, that doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law. If you have accidentally infringed upon someone else's copyright - the prosecution has the right to ask that you remove all offending material from the market and you can still owe them a truck load of money. MEK MM [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] thms.comcc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/04/03 07:06 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? so let me get all of this correct...according to everyone here on this list the general opinion is that UR and rolando sampled this TCOY track and did not make it them selfs.man with all of the bullshit that surrounded the jaguar you think someone else would have dug this up if it was truebut its probably not true. the last time i was in detroit i talked with mike for a good long time like 7 hours...and its kinda funny we talked about the jaguar...and he never mentioned that he or rolando sampled a record to make it...i mean he told me about alot of other elements in the trackunless of course he was lying ..in order for UR to have sampled that track then it would mean that Mad Mike and the rest of UR were lying to everyone in the world.I THINK NOTif the track sounds like it then its probably a coincidence ...but i doubt that UR would put on this elaborate hoax to fool everyone.lets
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
-- Original Message -- From: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] I mean, go dig out Jaguar again and tell me that's a sample... IMHO there is no way. Have you ever tried to sample stuff and use it in a track? There's extraordinary difficulty in finding a clean enough version of that string part of the track to be able to sample it and make Jaguar with it the jungle producer adam f replayed a big chuck of a bob james track (nautilus i think it was) and turned it into a jungle tune that got released on a major and AFAIK didnt get sample clearance. so you dont necessarily need to have it clean. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
-- Original Message -- From: MM [EMAIL PROTECTED] now after talking about it for a bit and realizing thati would find it REAL hard that it could be sampled knowing how important the record was to rolando thats all i am saying . now youre making value judgements on sampled music. the idea of stealing melodies and rhythms and so on from other songs is an important part of the black music continuum. i dont think that a sampled bit or a replayed bit would make the song any less spiritual for anyone. tom andythepooh.com
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
I mean, go dig out Jaguar again and tell me that's a sample... IMHO there is no way. Have you ever tried to sample stuff and use it in a track? There's extraordinary difficulty in finding a clean enough version of that string part of the track to be able to sample it and make Jaguar with it. On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 09:58 PM, Thomas D. Cox, Jr. wrote: the jungle producer adam f replayed a big chuck of a bob james track (nautilus i think it was) and turned it into a jungle tune that got released on a major and AFAIK didnt get sample clearance. so you dont necessarily need to have it clean. True, if you want to play it back wholesale like Adam F did. It's in the sample: do they life the whole phrase, (with several instruments in the lifted segment at once, [drums, strings, horns, etc.]) or do you lift a fragment of an instrument when it is left out in the open (in this case, some have said the string sound) and sample it so you play it back in a different melody -- and also use that same string sound to somehow create that extremely elaborate solo at the end). It's just not the case here that listening to Jaguar it could have been constructed from a wholesale chunk sample of the TCOY track. Again your Adam F example makes sense in most cases, sure, you don't have something clean to sample it. But in the case of the argument that says Jaguar is sampled, find me the loop of TCOY in Jaguar that was lifted straight-up like that... there isn't one. peace Matt MacQueen ps - Adam F also makes a cool track on that same LP that samples all different parts from Miles Davis Bitches Brew (forgot which track) that is almost like a homage to it... extremely obvious, long whoelsale lifted parts. But with great beats underneath, I like it, Miles crazy muted trumpet blasting out and the spooky fog of the electric piano/organ sounds. For the record I have nothing against sampling at all, I just truly don't think Jaguar had anything to do with the TCOY track, and it pains me to see the assumptions based on those assumptions.
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar Doesn't the piano there sound just like SL2's Changing tracks? I once found one other track which had the exact same melody as Changing tracks but I can't remember the name or the artists of that tune :/ - Jari Tolkkinen | dj ken-guru | http://www.labra.com/~ken-guru -
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
- Original Message - From: Matt MacQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: MM [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:27 AM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? I mean, go dig out Jaguar again and tell me that's a sample... IMHO there is no way. Have you ever tried to sample stuff and use it in a track? There's extraordinary difficulty in finding a clean enough version of that string part of the track to be able to sample it and make Jaguar with it. Still, everyone's ears are subjective and it's something neither of us can conclusively prove one way or the other. :) Exactly. If someone doesn't want to buy that it can't be a sample based on technical or melodic considertions, the argument remains the two ships passing in the night that it is. However, there is 99.9% no way it could have been sampled, either because of the derth of other sounds cluttering those strings throughout, or because (to my ears), there is not a single point in the original where a string plays 1 sustained monotone note, and if you sample the chord, you can't reconstruct a 'normal' sounding chord out of where it came from, which is precisely how Jaguar is constructed. This is a hard-fast technical limitation of sampling in my experience, unless there is something huge I am missing. It's chords throughout, except for maybe that little 5-note trill that everyone's sweating at the beginning of the phrase, which no one is disputing sounds nearly identical, but that doesn't mean it's a sample, for all the reasons above. Pedant #85372672904321 === Text/Mixes/Pics: http://www.phonopsia.co.uk Music: http://www.mp313.com Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
I mean, go dig out Jaguar again and tell me that's a sample... IMHO there is no way. Have you ever tried to sample stuff and use it in a track? There's extraordinary difficulty in finding a clean enough version of that string part of the track to be able to sample it and make Jaguar with it. Still, everyone's ears are subjective and it's something neither of us can conclusively prove one way or the other. :) Exactly. If someone doesn't want to buy that it can't be a sample based on technical or melodic considertions, the argument remains the two ships passing in the night that it is. However, there is 99.9% no way it could have been sampled, either because of the derth of other sounds cluttering those strings throughout, or because (to my ears), there is not a single point in the original where a string plays 1 sustained monotone note, and if you sample the chord, you can't reconstruct a 'normal' sounding chord out of where it came from, which is precisely how Jaguar is constructed. This is a hard-fast technical limitation of sampling in my experience, unless there is something huge I am missing. It's chords throughout, except for maybe that little 5-note trill that everyone's sweating at the beginning of the phrase, which no one is disputing sounds nearly identical, but that doesn't mean it's a sample, for all the reasons above. Also the string sound used is probably some standard preset sound, the short riddle in the start is done by so many people more, it is not something that is so original it is in thousands of other records, so it uses the same chords, so what? That is just a basic musical training. The submerge people are musically enough that they could play this string the way they did. Assuming that this is ripped (or sampled) is just as bizzare as accusing Derrick May from ripping some old eighties track just because he used the lately bass KJ -- DISCLAIMER De gemeente Almelo aanvaardt voor haar medewerkers geen enkele aansprakelijkheid voor eventueel onjuist, onrechtmatig of ontoelaatbaar geacht gebruik van e-mail (inclusief bijlagen). Dit e-mail bericht is door de gemeente Almelo gecontroleerd op de aanwezigheid van eventuele virussen. Wij kunnen echter geen garantie afgeven dat al onze e-mail berichten volledig virus vrij zijn. Het is daarom verstandig uw binnenkomende e-mail berichten zelf op de mogelijke aanwezigheid van virussen te controleren. --
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
the jungle producer adam f replayed a big chuck of a bob james track (nautilus i think it was) and turned it into a jungle tune that got released on a major and AFAIK didnt get sample clearance. Hmm. I can't believe that - big labels are usually pretty weary of things like that - even if the track is perceived as underground, or the sample is well disguised. It's far cheaper to pay for the sample than to face the consequences after. anyway, I was wondering - why all the fuss even if Rolando used a sample? some of UR's finest moments have pretty big chunks of samples in. does it matter? oh, and one more thing! Mike Pickering - yep, OK, he did M-People, but I think he's made his contribution - 52nd Street anyone? Good Factory band, innovative etc. Give him a break my 2p's worth anyway. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Mark All as Read |-Original Message- |From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] |Sent: 05 August 2003 08:53 |To: 313@hyperreal.org |Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? | | | the jungle producer adam f replayed a big chuck of a bob james | track (nautilus i think it was) and turned it into a jungle |tune that | got released on a major and AFAIK didnt get sample clearance. | |Hmm. I can't believe that - big labels are usually pretty |weary of things like that - even if the track is perceived as |underground, or the sample is well disguised. It's far cheaper |to pay for the sample than to face the consequences after. | |anyway, I was wondering - why all the fuss even if Rolando |used a sample? some of UR's finest moments have pretty big |chunks of samples in. | |does it matter? | |oh, and one more thing! Mike Pickering - yep, OK, he did |M-People, but I think he's made his contribution - 52nd Street |anyone? Good Factory band, innovative etc. Give him a break | |my 2p's worth anyway. | |_ | |- End of message text | |This e-mail is sent by the above named in their |individual, non-business capacity and is not on |behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. | |PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming |e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and |telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you |give your consent to such monitoring | | |
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Yes I remember them 'Tell me how it Feels' Mind you there were a couple of nice 'pop house' tracks on the first M-People record. Yes give the man a break he virtualy brought House Music to the Hacienda way back...and possibly opened many a door to the UK dance scene, expecially in the North were the music was more soulful than the acid beats of the south. oh, and one more thing! Mike Pickering - yep, OK, he did M-People, but I think he's made his contribution - 52nd Street anyone? Good Factory band, innovative etc. Give him a break my 2p's worth anyway. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
(313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? KJ On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
|-Original Message- |From: Klaas-Jan Jongsma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where |the comparison ends i think? | maybe if you're tone-deaf :) in two distinct places, the melody is, note-by-note, an excact copy. that being said, Knights of the Jaguar is obviously a much better track, with much better strings. Christian Bloch http://christianbloch.com
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
I think most musicologists would argue the opposite Ken - those string lines aren't generic, because they are recognizable parts of another song - the 80s track - and they do not depend on context for distinctiveness - because you can recognize those strings when they are used in another song (Knights of the Jaguar) and ID them as being used in a source song (the 80s track - what is the title of it by the way?). If this wasn't the case I could lift the bassline from Michael Jackson's Billy Jean and get away with it AND nobody would know where the bassline is from. Which I highly doubt. Just like you can ID the pump up the volume vocal as being used in M/A/R/R/S and sourced from Eric B. Rakim To me it sounds like he cleaned up the sample plus gave it a tempo adjustment or played it note for note (but it's so close it sounds like a sample) - it's quite obvious a lift from that tune. And we were all able to ID right away - nobody has said - gee that sounds like the strings used in Strings of Life - no we all said Knights of the Jaguar so it's not generic at all. It's a prosecuting copyright lawyer's wish come true The legal test is whether a sample is recognizable. It is not true that you are allowed to use up to 4 bars or 10 seconds or any part of another song. MEK Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org cc: 08/04/03 01:08 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
not to mention that part of it sounds REALLY close to the bassline in no UFOs (at least I think thats the track) - Original Message - From: ian cheshire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Christian Bloch [EMAIL PROTECTED]; '313 list' 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:15 PM Subject: RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? I agree totally :) -Original Message- From: Christian Bloch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 04 August 2003 19:03 To: '313 list' Subject: RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? |-Original Message- |From: Klaas-Jan Jongsma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | |Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where |the comparison ends i think? | maybe if you're tone-deaf :) in two distinct places, the melody is, note-by-note, an excact copy. that being said, Knights of the Jaguar is obviously a much better track, with much better strings. Christian Bloch http://christianbloch.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 30/07/03 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.505 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 30/07/03
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Ha, I bet Sony and BMG would have loved to have tried to pull this one out the bag when they were wrangling with UR! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? I think most musicologists would argue the opposite Ken - those string lines aren't generic, because they are recognizable parts of another song - the 80s track - and they do not depend on context for distinctiveness - because you can recognize those strings when they are used in another song (Knights of the Jaguar) and ID them as being used in a source song (the 80s track - what is the title of it by the way?). If this wasn't the case I could lift the bassline from Michael Jackson's Billy Jean and get away with it AND nobody would know where the bassline is from. Which I highly doubt. Just like you can ID the pump up the volume vocal as being used in M/A/R/R/S and sourced from Eric B. Rakim To me it sounds like he cleaned up the sample plus gave it a tempo adjustment or played it note for note (but it's so close it sounds like a sample) - it's quite obvious a lift from that tune. And we were all able to ID right away - nobody has said - gee that sounds like the strings used in Strings of Life - no we all said Knights of the Jaguar so it's not generic at all. It's a prosecuting copyright lawyer's wish come true The legal test is whether a sample is recognizable. It is not true that you are allowed to use up to 4 bars or 10 seconds or any part of another song. MEK Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org cc: 08/04/03 01:08 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar __ Join Freeserve http://www.freeserve.com/time/ Winner of the 2003 Internet Service Providers' Association awards for Best Unmetered ISP and Best Consumer Application.
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
- Original Message - From: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:48 PM Subject: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar Sounds like it's the same synth patch with some melodic inspiration. Cool to hear it! Tristan === Text/Mixes/Pics: http://www.phonopsia.co.uk Music: http://www.mp313.com Contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but i think that it so more a coincident, i once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until i heard them played bak to back and i had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Do the strings appear by themselves in the original house tune? _Dave -- Original Message - Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:37:28 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think most musicologists would argue the opposite Ken - those string lines aren't generic, because they are recognizable parts of another song - the 80s track - and they do not depend on context for distinctiveness - because you can recognize those strings when they are used in another song (Knights of the Jaguar) and ID them as being used in a source song (the 80s track - what is the title of it by the way?). If this wasn't the case I could lift the bassline from Michael Jackson's Billy Jean and get away with it AND nobody would know where the bassline is from. Which I highly doubt. Just like you can ID the pump up the volume vocal as being used in M/A/R/R/S and sourced from Eric B. Rakim To me it sounds like he cleaned up the sample plus gave it a tempo adjustment or played it note for note (but it's so close it sounds like a sample) - it's quite obvious a lift from that tune. And we were all able to ID right away - nobody has said - gee that sounds like the strings used in Strings of Life - no we all said Knights of the Jaguar so it's not generic at all. It's a prosecuting copyright lawyer's wish come true The legal test is whether a sample is recognizable. It is not true that you are allowed to use up to 4 bars or 10 seconds or any part of another song. MEK Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org cc: 08/04/03 01:08 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
You're kidding right? A coincidence? Everything in that string bit is in Jaguar -even how the notes waver before the descending notes come in. This more than sounds a lot like it - the strings in Jaguar clearly is a sample of that track with maybe a tempo change (and maybe extra accompaniment over and under to fatten up the sound). Or, it was reperformed by Rolando using the same keyboard practically note for note - would be too many coincidences to be a coincidence if you know what I mean. TCoy probably wouldn't do anything about it because of the use of Eric B. Rakim, in the Carino track, would cost a lot more to licence and TCoy would most likely get sued in turn if Eric B Rakim knew about it. So, I'm sure the producer of Carino, if they are alive still, are keeping real quiet and not bothering with taking any action against Rolando if UR didn't clear it. This is all a moot point if Rolando/UR cleared it all with the owners of Carino. Whether that be the performance and the publishing (if it was a sample) or just the publishing (if Rolando re-performed the section used). Either way, both tunes are cool and I do hope that UR has got their bases covered on this. MEK Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] .nl cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 01:13 PM On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but i think that it so more a coincident, i once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until i heard them played bak to back and i had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
I suppose someone should tell Mike Pickering (latterly of M People) - he produced it. In fact, f*ck that, he owes the world of music more than enough! Ha ha. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org; Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:08 PM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? You're kidding right? A coincidence? Everything in that string bit is in Jaguar -even how the notes waver before the descending notes come in. This more than sounds a lot like it - the strings in Jaguar clearly is a sample of that track with maybe a tempo change (and maybe extra accompaniment over and under to fatten up the sound). Or, it was reperformed by Rolando using the same keyboard practically note for note - would be too many coincidences to be a coincidence if you know what I mean. TCoy probably wouldn't do anything about it because of the use of Eric B. Rakim, in the Carino track, would cost a lot more to licence and TCoy would most likely get sued in turn if Eric B Rakim knew about it. So, I'm sure the producer of Carino, if they are alive still, are keeping real quiet and not bothering with taking any action against Rolando if UR didn't clear it. This is all a moot point if Rolando/UR cleared it all with the owners of Carino. Whether that be the performance and the publishing (if it was a sample) or just the publishing (if Rolando re-performed the section used). Either way, both tunes are cool and I do hope that UR has got their bases covered on this. MEK Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] .nl cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 01:13 PM On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but i think that it so more a coincident, i once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until i heard them played bak to back and i had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on Mon, 4 Aug 2003 about following: most likely get sued in turn if Eric B Rakim knew about it. So, I'm sure the producer of Carino, if they are alive still, are keeping real quiet and it's mike pickering if my memory serves right. (better known also as part of m-people) sakke -- Timing must be perfect now. Two-timing must be better than perfect. http://www.arabuusimiehet.com/sakke/
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
KJ wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but I think that it's more a coincidence, I once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until I heard them played back to back and I had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) More Fun With Wholescale Lifted Samples: Play Joy Division's As You Said (unnamed instrumental track on the Joy Division flexi alongside Komakino and Incubation). Then play Steely Dan's Rikki Don't Lose That Number. Then play Meat Beat Manifesto's Hello Teenage America. :-) (No, I don't know what this has to do with 313, either ... sorry, I'll shut up now.) - Greg
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
The Billyjean bassline is from Billy Oceans Carribean Queen BTW :^) - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:37 PM Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? I think most musicologists would argue the opposite Ken - those string lines aren't generic, because they are recognizable parts of another song - the 80s track - and they do not depend on context for distinctiveness - because you can recognize those strings when they are used in another song (Knights of the Jaguar) and ID them as being used in a source song (the 80s track - what is the title of it by the way?). If this wasn't the case I could lift the bassline from Michael Jackson's Billy Jean and get away with it AND nobody would know where the bassline is from. Which I highly doubt. Just like you can ID the pump up the volume vocal as being used in M/A/R/R/S and sourced from Eric B. Rakim To me it sounds like he cleaned up the sample plus gave it a tempo adjustment or played it note for note (but it's so close it sounds like a sample) - it's quite obvious a lift from that tune. And we were all able to ID right away - nobody has said - gee that sounds like the strings used in Strings of Life - no we all said Knights of the Jaguar so it's not generic at all. It's a prosecuting copyright lawyer's wish come true The legal test is whether a sample is recognizable. It is not true that you are allowed to use up to 4 bars or 10 seconds or any part of another song. MEK Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org cc: 08/04/03 01:08 PMSubject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar You know after listening to this twice I think they're similar in sound and some but not so much so that one was a note by note copy, no way. And perhaps not even an influence... I mean IMHO a person could have absolutely written Jaguar without ever hearing this.. call me crazy. peace Matt MacQueen
RE: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 4. avgust 2003 23:08 To: Klaas-Jan Jongsma Cc: 313 list; Kent williams Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? You're kidding right? A coincidence? Everything in that string bit is in Jaguar -even how the notes waver before the descending notes come in. This more than sounds a lot like it - the strings in Jaguar clearly is a sample of that track with maybe a tempo change (and maybe extra accompaniment over and under to fatten up the sound). Or, it was reperformed by Rolando using the same keyboard practically note for note - would be too many coincidences to be a coincidence if you know what I mean. Well from listening to this strings for a couple of times, I can tell that at the beginning they start the same as jaguar but than it gets different really quickly. Than at another point there's another part that sounds the same as jaguar strings for a bit longer but than gets different again. So Rolando probably did get inspiration from this track, but even if he did he changed the strings quite allot beyond those couple starting notes, so he deffinitely didn't sampel them. Also that note waver is quite generic and I've heard it, or really simialar, used in many different melodies (I think I've also heard it in a couple of old movie soundtracks). Jernej www.soundoflj.com/octex
Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record?
Hi, If it's not a sample there shouldn't be any problem. It's not possible to copyright just a fragment of a melody really, as far as I have ever heard. The essential question would have to be raised, does that string line encompass the essence of both songs, or if the additional parts in each song make them essentially two different compositions. After all, no one has ever claimed a jazz musician has to get copyright clearance when they quote a fragment of a popular song in the middle of their solo. That is arguably fair use, but I've never heard of a court case over this issue. By the way, in classical music the concept of theme and variations is based precisely on writing a new composition over someone's melody, and there are many other examples of borrowing melodies too (check Mahler's first symphony or Ives!). So I think history would support an argument of fair use of a melody in a new compositions, as long as the new composition is not a derivative work, which would be protected by copyright law. Of course, who knows what you could get a judge to buy who had little understanding of music. _Dave -- Original Message - Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:08:14 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] You're kidding right? A coincidence? Everything in that string bit is in Jaguar -even how the notes waver before the descending notes come in. This more than sounds a lot like it - the strings in Jaguar clearly is a sample of that track with maybe a tempo change (and maybe extra accompaniment over and under to fatten up the sound). Or, it was reperformed by Rolando using the same keyboard practically note for note - would be too many coincidences to be a coincidence if you know what I mean. TCoy probably wouldn't do anything about it because of the use of Eric B. Rakim, in the Carino track, would cost a lot more to licence and TCoy would most likely get sued in turn if Eric B Rakim knew about it. So, I'm sure the producer of Carino, if they are alive still, are keeping real quiet and not bothering with taking any action against Rolando if UR didn't clear it. This is all a moot point if Rolando/UR cleared it all with the owners of Carino. Whether that be the performance and the publishing (if it was a sample) or just the publishing (if Rolando re-performed the section used). Either way, both tunes are cool and I do hope that UR has got their bases covered on this. MEK Klaas-Jan Jongsma [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] .nl cc: 313 list 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) Jaguar Strings on 80s House record? 08/04/03 01:13 PM On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 20:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: It also is note for note the same as the beginning couple of bars of the strings in Jaguar ... just interesting to compare. Oh sure but i think that it so more a coincident, i once got accused by someone for copying a melody from a Joy Division record once. I never realized it until i heard them played bak to back and i had to agree that my track sounded a lot like that Joy Division track :) My friend who found that thought that Rolando was copying; I argued that the string line on both are fairly generic and depend on the context for any distinctiveness. On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Klaas-Jan Jongsma wrote: Well they use the same (Oberheim?) synth for sure, but that is where the comparison ends i think? On maandag, aug 4, 2003, at 19:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Kent williams wrote: My friend Rich found this: http://www.psychiatry.uiowa.edu/~kent/Carino-TCOY.mp3 Listen to the string synth at the beginning, contrast and compare with synth strings in Night of the Jaguar
