Re: [AFMUG] intersection of technical and political

[Robert]

Rothchilds, as it has been for centuries...

On 10/6/24 4:59 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:


Who are the "puppetmasters"?  That's what concerns me.  Is it really 
Opus Dei?


On 10/6/24 14:57, Robert wrote:
I like to call it the bell curve problem..   The edges of the bell 
curve where the extreme are getting way too much influence in today's 
world...


On 10/6/24 1:22 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Each side seems to collect a certain number of the "unique" people.  
The right seems to collect the conspiracy theory non-critical 
thinkers.  The left seems to collect the rediculous to the extreme 
social justice warrior types.  And both sides collect few other 
groups with extreme viewpoints.


Then, each side claims that the other side solely consists of those 
extreme views.  Both sides say "ain't no way we want those nut jobs 
in power".  Which is 100% correct...  if you include both side's nut 
jobs into the statement.


On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 12:16 PM  wrote:

I am happy being a deplorable “junk” person I guess.  Not given
to conspiracy theories.  So sad to learn that I don’t have
critical thinking skills.  Who knew?
*From:* Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Saturday, October 5, 2024 11:10 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] intersection of technical and political
It makes sense that people who believe lies and conspiracies are
more likely to be scammed than people who have critical thinking
skills. Truth Social is filled with junk posts by junk people so
if I were a scammer, I'd focus all my time there too.
On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 10:00 PM Bill Prince
 wrote:

No comment (and that should say it all).
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 12:00 PM Ken Hohhof
 wrote:

We try to avoid discussing politics here, and yes, no
good can come from that.

But it was inevitable that technical and politics would
intersect.  I didn’t expect to see it on Gizmodo though.

If you have elderly relatives or friends who hang out on
Truth Social, give them the usual public service
announcement to watch out for scams.  Apparently Truth
Social is viewed as a target rich environment for scammers.


https://gizmodo.com/truth-social-users-are-losing-ridiculous-sums-of-money-to-scams-2000506604

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Re: [AFMUG] intersection of technical and political

[Robert]

I like to call it the bell curve problem.. The edges of the bell curve 
where the extreme are getting way too much influence in today's world...


On 10/6/24 1:22 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Each side seems to collect a certain number of the "unique" people.  
The right seems to collect the conspiracy theory non-critical 
thinkers.  The left seems to collect the rediculous to the extreme 
social justice warrior types.  And both sides collect few other groups 
with extreme viewpoints.


Then, each side claims that the other side solely consists of those 
extreme views.  Both sides say "ain't no way we want those nut jobs in 
power".  Which is 100% correct...  if you include both side's nut jobs 
into the statement.


On Sun, Oct 6, 2024, 12:16 PM  wrote:

I am happy being a deplorable “junk” person I guess.  Not given to
conspiracy theories.  So sad to learn that I don’t have critical
thinking skills.  Who knew?
*From:* Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Saturday, October 5, 2024 11:10 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] intersection of technical and political
It makes sense that people who believe lies and conspiracies are
more likely to be scammed than people who have critical thinking
skills. Truth Social is filled with junk posts by junk people so
if I were a scammer, I'd focus all my time there too.
On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 10:00 PM Bill Prince 
wrote:

No comment (and that should say it all).
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On Sat, Oct 5, 2024 at 12:00 PM Ken Hohhof 
wrote:

We try to avoid discussing politics here, and yes, no good
can come from that.

But it was inevitable that technical and politics would
intersect.  I didn’t expect to see it on Gizmodo though.

If you have elderly relatives or friends who hang out on
Truth Social, give them the usual public service
announcement to watch out for scams.  Apparently Truth
Social is viewed as a target rich environment for scammers.


https://gizmodo.com/truth-social-users-are-losing-ridiculous-sums-of-money-to-scams-2000506604

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Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com 
507-634-WiFi
Like us on Facebook 


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Re: [AFMUG] Tarana G2

[Robert]

Who can get $100/mo in a competitive environment?  Sole provider sure, 
but Cell service and cable service will kill that pricing.   If you are 
competing against Starlink only, then OK but you have to eat your 
install costs too...


On 10/4/24 12:01 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote:
Varies by customer and their situation.  If you can get $100/month and 
an install fee it’s pretty short.  Less than that it ales a lot 
longer.  Grants certainly make it easier.


Regards,

Jeff

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com


On Oct 4, 2024, at 2:44 PM, Dev  wrote:

 What is the average time before operators make a profit on a sub? I 
know, variables, but mainly, before or after I die of old age or run 
fiber?


On Oct 4, 2024, at 5:40 AM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
 wrote:


I can get you any pricing you need.

My understanding is that the G2 will be dual band, 3 and 6GHz.  It 
will be able to use 4x 40MHz channels and still provide all the 
interference mitigation of the G1 with 2x 40MHz channels.


I’m sure there is more, but that is what I know now.

Regards,

Jeff

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com


On Oct 3, 2024, at 6:43 PM, Dev  wrote:

 I wish Tarana’s price was the actual price, instead of sometimes 
a ton, sometimes a half a ton, sometimes don’t know. That way, I 
could calculate how many decades it would be until each customer 
would be profitable (outside of subsidized builds).


On Oct 3, 2024, at 3:04 PM, Jason McKemie 
 wrote:


The G1 is expensive enough, are people actually deploying these on 
a large scale?  The AP is pricey, but not necessarily a 
deal-breaker - those subscriber units though...


On Thu, Oct 3, 2024 at 1:21 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Osborne Effect refers to one of the most infamous marketing
fails of all time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

Has Tarana done this by announcing the G2 while all they have
shipping is the G1?

Or is the G2 so much more expensive that it’s just for window
shopping anyway?  I figure if these are being bought with BEAD
money, frugality may be out the window.

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Re: [AFMUG] Gen Z new college grads

[Robert]

And 13.5% mortgage rates.  Buying a house in the 70's was Wy more 
difficult than it is now...


On 9/27/24 12:06 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Sounds about right.

Only thing I'd add is I think the Internet contributes to this.

I hear from my 37 year old son how all these difficulties are because 
the "boomers" broke everything and rigged the system against them. I 
don't think the kids really know what a baby boomer is, it's a synonym 
for "the olds".


At 37 he's not the Instagram/Tiktok generation, more the 
Youtube/Reddit/podcast generation. But people are telling him the 
boomers rigged the system and made life hard for him.


Hey, I am a boomer. I went through recessions, the Vietnam draft, 
double digit inflation, the Arab oil embargo, the stock market crash 
of 1987. Oh and JFK, John Lennon and Ronald Reagan being shot. I 
figured I had it good because my dad and uncle fought in WW2, and my 
grandfather lived through the Great Depression. But I guess everything 
was just peachy until my generation conspired to make life difficult 
for the "not olds".


 Original Message 
From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)"
Sent: 9/27/2024 12:42:26 PM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Gen Z new college grads

My take on this is that most high school or college grads take a while 
to figure out how to manage having a job.   They also take a while to 
accumulate enough resources and get paid enough that life doesn't 
consist of working your ass off just to barely cover (or not) 
essential living expenses. Most of us started out living in crap 
conditions, eating whatever we could get for cheap, and driving 
vehicles which were lucky to start on a good day.


The difference I see is that gen Z seems to blame the 'olds' for their 
problems and don't understand that everyone goes through this barely 
feeding yourself stage.  There is also this odd sense of entitlement 
mixed with bizarre expectations.  I don't remember many of my peers 
expecting to be given a job where they didn't have to do normal work 
things like show up and get paid large amounts of money.  Oh,  and to 
never be given negative feedback.


I realize every generation goes through this cycle that eventually 
ends up with complaining about the younger generations.   It makes me 
smile to see the millennials switch from being the problem generation 
to whining about the problem generation.   But,  I can't help but feel 
that there is something fundamentally broken in a very 
non-similar-to-the-past way with many in the latest crop.


On Fri, Sep 27, 2024, 7:52 AM  wrote:

I've often said this, but part of the issue is selection bias.
People who
can't hack it will eventually either wise up or remove themselves
from the
work force, and then the older cohort will look better as a
consequence.
I'm at the borderline between "Gen X" and "Millennial", and people
complained and moaned about both age groups.  We're senior staff and
management now and complaining about how lazy Gen Z is.  You can
find news
articles from the 1800's complaining about "today's young
people".  This is
the same wheel that's been turning since the beginning.

Ugg and Ogg sat in their cave knapping flint spearheads and
complaining
about how wheels are making kids too lazy to do real work.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2024 6:31 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Gen Z new college grads

I assume some percentage of people in the Gen Z cohort do want to
work hard
and build a successful career. Imagine you're a new grad hired
into a work
from home or 2 days at the office company. That's got to be sub
optimum. I
think the whole Covid work from home thing also relieved the first
level
managers of actually doing their job - managing people. Or is that
done by
AI now?

Article seems to say after a couple years of just griping about
it, bosses
are starting to fire the non performers. So what were the bosses
doing until
now to earn their pay? Oh, firing people is hard! With newbies
you also
need to do feedback and mentoring, because according to the article,
colleges aren't preparing them for the world of work. And if these
companies
have accumulated a bunch of worthless employees with bad
attitudes, that's
going to rub off on impressionable newbies. Honestly, that kind of
happened
to me at my first job after college.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 9/26/2024 5:06:27 PM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Gen Z new college grads

There seems to be a growing idea amongst the younger citizens that
there is
a universal human right to never suffer hurt feelings. The ultra
woke I
think would se

Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

[Robert]

The stories of the consumption on those movies in those times were 
legendary...   We complain about getting work out of GenZ, must have 
been really hard to get work out of gen-so-f'd-up.


On 9/26/24 5:04 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz-Lzu01olY

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Sterling Jacobson 
via AF

*Sent:* Thursday, September 26, 2024 6:49 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* Sterling Jacobson 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

Yeah. Those few scenes are great as well. She's got a great death 
stare lol




*From:*AF  on behalf of Ken Hohhof 


*Sent:* Thursday, September 26, 2024 3:40 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

Didn't Carrie Fisher's character work at the Curl Up And Dye Salon?

 Original Message 
From: "Jan-GAMs"
Sent: 9/26/2024 4:26:43 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

I liked the glue on the gas-pedal stunt.  hut, hut, hut, hut...  more 
white toast and coffee


On 9/26/24 10:31, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} @font-face
{font-family:Helvetica; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}@font-face
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4;}@font-face {font-family:Aptos;}@font-face
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li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}pre
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margin:0in; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier
New";}span.HTMLPreformattedChar {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted
Char"; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}span.EmailStyle21
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font-size:10.0pt; mso-ligatures:none;}div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}

I have always liked sycophant but never can recall how to
pronounce.  Sy like PSY or like sick?

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Drive
Lake Point, Utah 84074

801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell

www mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 

*From:*Ken Hohhof

*Sent:*Thursday, September 26, 2024 11:12 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/yes-person

*From:*AF 
 *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Thursday, September 26, 2024 12:02 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

Maybe "Yes them"?

bp



On 9/26/2024 9:06 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:

"Yes-men" it should have said. I was not implying women don't
do well there. Yes-women probably do OK too.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 10:56?AM Cameron Crum
 wrote:

Speaking from experience, there is an extremely high
turnover rate at Ubiquiti. Yes men do well there, others,
not so much.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 10:54?AM Ken Hohhof
 wrote:

I subscribed at macenski.com .
We’ll see if I get anything other than the
confirmation email.  My guess is no, that he used
GoDaddy Airo to build a placeholder site for his
domain name.

AI fueled!  Everything is better with AI.  First there
was bacon, then it was ghost peppers, now everything’s
gotta have AI.  Can I have bacon, ghost peppers, and AI?

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of
*Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Thursday, September 26, 2024 10:36 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Sad to see:

I don't see him on LinkedIn anymore either.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 

Re: [AFMUG] defunct WISPs

[Robert]

Let me guess, then you went to Sprint... Hope you're not on T-Mobile 
now, it's crappy enough as it is...


On 9/24/24 9:29 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
There was also Metricom (Ricochet) in the early 2000s. They used those 
General Dynamics Radios with the little helical omnis that stuck off 
the bottom and deployed on mostly light poles. I had their service 
when I lived in an apartment briefly and needed more than my dialup 
connection that operated at 26k at best. I got 128k and thought I was 
in heaven, then they shut it down. I also had a Clear Modem I used to 
take to the trade shows and typically had faster service than the 
crowded crappy wifi they had back 10 years ago. Then they shut that 
down. I also switched from Sprint to Nextel after they refused to sell 
me a new phone at new customer pricing. At the time my cell phone 
bills were over $600/month and they let me walk out of their store in 
order to stick to their pricing plans on a phone. Then Sprint bought 
Nextel about 6 months later. I guess the take away here is that I'm a 
curse to these companies.


On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 8:59 AM Bill Prince  wrote:

McCaw took home 70% of the venture capital.


bp


On 9/23/2024 2:21 PM, Robert wrote:

Clearwire, from the same roots as the original cell network in
the NW. Craig McCaw.  Clearwire was bumping along until they
"teamed up" with Intel to do the next gen wimax miracle that was
going to be revolutionary.   Dropped an IPO with Intel as the
lead investor and hyped the stock for a year and piled on another
few billion in debt and then when all the common investors lost
their ass fire sale the spectrum to spring.   Even Intel got
screwed.   But not McCaw...   70 percent penetration through trees?

On 9/23/24 1:47 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Works 70% of the time?

On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 11:12 AM  wrote:

Ahhh, yes, that is is.  I remembered sprint being involved
somehow.
Wimax  70 miles, 70 mbps and there was a third 70 but I
don’t remember the promise.
Best Regards,
Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Drive

<https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+%0D%0ADrive+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g>
Lake Point, Utah 84074

<https://www.google.com/maps/search/8401+N+Commerce+%0D%0ADrive+Lake+Point,+Utah+84074?entry=gmail&source=g>

801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell

www mccowntech.com <http://mccowntech.com>
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro>
www.terabitnetworks.com <http://www.terabitnetworks.com>
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 11:05 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] defunct WISPs
Clearwire didn't disappear. Sprint bought them in 2012. The
WiMax network was shut down in 2015 in favor of Sprint's LTE
network.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *dmmoff...@gmail.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Monday, September 23, 2024 11:53:04 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] defunct WISPs

I recall Clearwire installing Wimax nationwide.  At some
point they switched it all to LTE, and then later they
disappeared.

We got a couple of their undeployed cabinets from a surplus
dealer.  I didn’t like their switch or their PDU, but the
rectifier and batteries were ok.

-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 11:27 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] defunct WISPs

I remember around the time JAB/Rise was taking off there was
a flurry of other WISPs that took off and then crashed and
burned rather suddenly.  I think at least one of them used
WiMAX equipment that was somewhat popular with apartment
dwellers because they had indoor modems. 

Re: [AFMUG] defunct WISPs

[Robert]

Clearwire, from the same roots as the original cell network in the NW. 
Craig McCaw.  Clearwire was bumping along until they "teamed up" with 
Intel to do the next gen wimax miracle that was going to be 
revolutionary.   Dropped an IPO with Intel as the lead investor and 
hyped the stock for a year and piled on another few billion in debt and 
then when all the common investors lost their ass fire sale the spectrum 
to spring.   Even Intel got screwed.   But not McCaw...   70 percent 
penetration through trees?


On 9/23/24 1:47 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Works 70% of the time?

On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 11:12 AM  wrote:

Ahhh, yes, that is is.  I remembered sprint being involved somehow.
Wimax  70 miles, 70 mbps and there was a third 70 but I don’t
remember the promise.
Best Regards,
Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Drive


Lake Point, Utah 84074



801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell

www mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 11:05 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] defunct WISPs
Clearwire didn't disappear. Sprint bought them in 2012. The WiMax
network was shut down in 2015 in favor of Sprint's LTE network.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *dmmoff...@gmail.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Monday, September 23, 2024 11:53:04 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] defunct WISPs

I recall Clearwire installing Wimax nationwide.  At some point
they switched it all to LTE, and then later they disappeared.

We got a couple of their undeployed cabinets from a surplus
dealer.  I didn’t like their switch or their PDU, but the
rectifier and batteries were ok.

-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 11:27 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] defunct WISPs

I remember around the time JAB/Rise was taking off there was a
flurry of other WISPs that took off and then crashed and burned
rather suddenly.  I think at least one of them used WiMAX
equipment that was somewhat popular with apartment dwellers
because they had indoor modems.  I also seem to remember equipment
vendors left holding the bag, and surplus equipment showing up on
eBay.  I think one of them approached us about M&A but they were
offering stock claiming that was better than cash because it would
go up in value (yeah, right).

Anyone remember the names of these companies, I’m drawing a
blank.  Also any recollection of what went wrong and lessons
learned that might apply to the current rush to deploy broadand.


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Re: [AFMUG] race to the bottom?

[Robert]

Why do I suspect Gov't $$ in there somewhere

On 9/20/24 11:28 AM, Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi] wrote:


Same here.  The same town I mentioned has Comcast trucks all over it.  
They will be the 3^rd fiber provider in town.


Jim Bouse

Brazos WiFi

979-999-7000

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Friday, September 20, 2024 10:29 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] race to the bottom?

Comcast is overbuilding fiber with fiber here.  In semi rural areas.

*From:*Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]

*Sent:*Friday, September 20, 2024 8:46 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] race to the bottom?

I’m pretty sure it’s burning other people’s money.

Nextlink, for example is expanding their fixed wireless into a town 
nearby with 3 fiber providers.  WHY?!


At best, they are going to get the 10-15% of the population that is 
“never happy” and will end up spending so much time/money on truck rolls.


I can kind-of understand overbuilding a town using fiber because that 
infrastructure lasts a LONG time. Fixed wireless has a short life, 
comparatively.


Jim Bouse

Brazos WiFi

979-999-7000

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Friday, September 20, 2024 8:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] race to the bottom?

I’m noticing some trends with the numbers for FWA that I can’t make 
sense out of.


- monthly price is expected to be $30 to $50

- speed is expected to be 100M to 1G

- equipment cost is around $1000 per sub for AP+CPE (if you have at 
least 50-100 subs per tower)


- include a free router or mesh system

- throw in freebies like streaming, gift cards, reimburse cancellation 
fees, etc.


I understand with fiber you probably have high take rate and low 
churn, and eventually make that investment back.  But with FWA, it 
seems like there will always be churn, and expensive CPE either not 
returned or having to be refurbished and reinstalled.  New owner might 
instead go with 5G home Internet or Starlink or another WISP (people 
have lots of choices), or BEAD subsidized fiber and now you’ve 
probably lost that location permanently (unless you’re the one putting 
in the fiber).


So is this a race to the bottom with other people’s money?  Or am I 
missing other revenue sources like ads, harvesting and selling data, 
bundled services?


I get the same feeling as the early days of streaming when everybody 
was losing money to get market share, until the reckoning when they 
tried to turn a profit.  It also seemed that way in the 5G home 
Internet world with T-Mobile and Verizon offering promo pricing, then 
raising prices, but now they’re back to $30 and $50 prices.




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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] IP TV

[Robert]

TANSTAAFL

On 9/17/24 10:12 AM, Bill Prince wrote:



and need not mention that "free" is almost never totally free.

bp

On 9/17/2024 8:46 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


I’m surprised how openly they sell these:

https://vseebox.com/

Plus there are the Android boxes that come with pre-installed 
backdoors and malware.


But hey … free TV!

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2024 10:17 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] IP TV

I wonder if the streamers embed a watermark to allow traceability.

*From:*Ken Hohhof

*Sent:*Tuesday, September 17, 2024 9:07 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] IP TV

TV (broadcast and streaming) is getting expensive enough that pirate 
TV boxes are making a comeback.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Nate Burke
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2024 9:45 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; 
dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] IP TV

I'm not sure of the brand, this was many years ago, and I don't think 
I could find a logo  I was in a largish hotel that had a STB that had 
a single Cat5 running into it.  HDMI to the TV, Analog phone port to 
the room phone, and WIFI AP.  You turned on the TV and it worked.  
Maybe The Hospitality arena already has something that you're looking 
for that could be adapted to MDU?


On 9/17/2024 8:59 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Well, the main reason is for MDU’s.  If the owners are going to
build a TV service into their leases then their option is either
a deal for both TV and Internet from cable, or to work with two
different companies.  They’re probably not going to work with two
companies.  Our solution right now is mybundle.tv, which is not
providing anything that the customer couldn’t get on their own,
and there’s not much in it for us.

I really want it to be a turnkey thing because we’ll have less
sunk cost if we want to drop it someday.  And I’ll say we have
Realchoice for one building now, and our cost on the TV package
is something like $11/month per unit.  Obviously that’s
profitable for us while also being attractive for the landlords.

My ONLY complaint with Realchoice TV is they don’t have a set top
box.  There are situations where I think that would be
desirable.  For example, one of our customers is a fully
furnished student housing facility where the TV is already there
when the kids move in.  If we’re a box on HDMI1 then they could
just turn on the TV and it would work immediately.  Otherwise we
have to provide instructions for them to open the app, which a
lot of them will never read, and with new tenants coming in every
year I’d rather it was just **there** when they turn on the TV. 
The same logic would apply for hospitality and commercial
scenarios. If the hotel TV required you to turn on a Roku and
open an app then I’ll bet half the guests are going to call the
front desk not knowing what to do because they didn’t read the
instructions posted next to the TV.  If the doctor’s office TV
requires you to open an app after turning it on, then I’ll bet
we’ll walk in and see the Roku home screen most of the time
because the staff won’t know or won’t care about doing that every
time. Basically, while I love that they have apps for Roku,
Android, iOS, etc, I want a set top box to be available as an
option because I believe a lot of people are terminally lazy or
stupid.

If there’s a way to have an Android set top box that
automatically opens a particular app on bootup then that might
solve my one Realchoice quibble. It would have to be something we
could buy already set up like that.

 1. I already know Dish/Direct are going to have a system where I
do all the work and they get all the money. That’s how they
did satellite and I doubt their streaming would have any
different philosophy.
 2. I have one opinion that Rodeo wasn’t good.  Any concurrence
or disagreement on that?
 3. I’ll never get buy in from upper management to invest six
figures in a head-end, and I don’t really want that to be my
problem.

There must be other players for reselling an IP TV option.  Do we
know of any?

If Layne is still on this list I do apologize buddy.  Your
company has always responded when we needed something and I’d
advocate your product to anyone. In fact, I currently **am**
advocating your product to our upper management.  I only have the
/one/ issue, and I know I’ll be asked about it, and I want to
have an answer prepared ahead of time when it comes up.

-Adam

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
 *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2024 6:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Robert]

That was true for me in the 80's-90's and then I decided to fix that by 
taking a job I stayed at for 4 years. That ruined all my applications in 
Silicon Valley for the next 5 years.   Everyone then decided that I 
wasn't hot material because I stayed at a regular company instead of a 
rocketship. They understood companies failing and going for another job 
but not staying at a "normal" tech company.   But interestingly 5 years 
later many of the people I knew at that normal company were at startups 
and reached out for me to recruiters.   It was the 5 year gap that 
killed my paylevels.   Sometimes you just can't win.  Luckily one of 
those recommended me to Netscape.


On 9/16/24 9:52 AM, Zach Underwood wrote:
For the first 12 years of my working experience I found that if I 
worked some place for more than 2 years I was being underpaid. If I 
stayed at the role I would be 1-3% pay raise, if I changed jobs I 
would get 20-50%. That has slowed down some as I have moved up the pay 
scale.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 12:41 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:

We've had a bunch of that too. For some reason, a lot of people in
teach think that you're doing it wrong if you don't hop every 2 -
3 years. Silicon Valley kind of sets some of this with their stock
vetting and lack of meaningful raises later.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 


Midwest Internet Exchange 


The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Chris Fabien" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Monday, September 16, 2024 11:34:06 AM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

Ken, we have an open position currently and I'd say 90% of the
resumes that come thru have what I would consider a garbage work
history. Random assortment of unrelated job roles, most for less
than a year. Clearly no attempt or success at anything resembling
a "career".  I guess this is just normal now?


On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 11:57 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand
is that a PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP
(corrective action plan) basically means you’re getting fired
and should start your job search now.  They don’t take it as a
wake up call to improve.

Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between
employers and employees seems to have mutually gone to zero. 
The idea of a “career” or working at the same place for years
is gone, and both sides blame the other.  Big corporations
that regularly overhire and then lay off to appease
shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk
expect “extreme hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on
the floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family owned
businesses are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers
learn from their reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable
and so they owe no loyalty or hard work to their job.

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of
*ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems
to yield much better results much quicker than gentle feed
back, mentoring, multiple reviews etc.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 

*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance
team.  Bottom line was similar to the seminar you mention, but
slightly different.

The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular
reviews, and make it clear when expectations are not being
met.  After a few bad reviews the most likely outcomes are
that they improve 

Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

[Robert]

Musks demands for effort were sustainable when the stock was doubling 
every year _and_ products were being gobbled up like PEZ.   I think 
Tesla is going to be struggling with employee problems if the stock 
stays stuck like it is now for a year.   It happens to every startup 
that doesn't have unicorn DNA.   After the IPO the washout of everyone 
that burned both ends and has their vest complete is epic.   The number 
of employees at Tesla that are ready to go postal must be massive.   
What happened with the supercharger division is just a sneak peak.


On 9/16/24 8:56 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Based on Internet posts, one thing Gen XYZ seems to understand is that 
a PIP (performance improvement plan) or CAP (corrective action plan) 
basically means you’re getting fired and should start your job search 
now.  They don’t take it as a wake up call to improve.


Over the past decade or two, loyalty and trust between employers and 
employees seems to have mutually gone to zero.  The idea of a “career” 
or working at the same place for years is gone, and both sides blame 
the other.  Big corporations that regularly overhire and then lay off 
to appease shareholders don’t help.  Yet billionaire owners like Musk 
expect “extreme hardcore” effort from employees who sleep on the 
floor.  Seems like local small businesses and family owned businesses 
are collateral damage in all this.  Younger workers learn from their 
reddits and tiktoks that they are expendable and so they owe no 
loyalty or hard work to their job.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2024 10:29 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

We do write them up.  But a bit of a harsh ass chewing seems to yield 
much better results much quicker than gentle feed back, mentoring, 
multiple reviews etc.


Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench.pro 
www.terabitnetworks.com 

*From:*dmmoff...@gmail.com

*Sent:*Monday, September 16, 2024 9:04 AM

*To:*'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I read a book that was about cultivating a high performance team. 
Bottom line was similar to the seminar you mention, but slightly 
different.


The short version is set expectations clearly, have regular reviews, 
and make it clear when expectations are not being met. After a few bad 
reviews the most likely outcomes are that they improve or they find 
another job and go away on their own.  If they don’t do either one 
then you have documentation of these reviews and you can drop them 
without fear of any unfounded accusations.


-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@go-mtc.com
*Sent:* Saturday, September 14, 2024 4:22 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Problem employees

I many years ago I went to a skilpath seminar on what to do with 
problem employees.  After two days the bottom line was that you 
probably will not change them, learn to live with them or fire them.


So for a number of years I gave them gentle performance reviews, some 
respectful feedback and then fired the ones the did not perform. There 
was some positive outcomes.  We frequently could find someone better 
for the position.  I used to say that I have never regretted firing 
anyone and almost always realized that I should have done it long 
ago.  And I have remarked that part of our success is that we did fire 
people. I still believe that is true and is good advice.


But in the past few years I have changed my view and tactic a little 
bit.  I got tired of performance reviews, coaching, coddling,  firing 
etc.  I just started chewing ass.  Not to the point that I created 
permanent psychic damage, but certainly some temporary psychic 
damage.  One gen Z kid told me the next day that he was OK, had a cry 
in his car but he is now OK.  And he is now OK, good performer.


I decided I did not want to waste the training I invested.  And that 
if they could survive the ass chewing and learn from it, I ended up 
overall in a better situation and they did too. So far I haven’t fired 
anyone since starting this I don’t think.  One guy is on thin ice but 
he only got his ass chewing on Thursday.  We will see if can pull it out.


Sick of coddling Gen Z.



--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

[Robert]

I believe two notable events, one the Gimli Glider and second a Mars 
landing attempt were both screwed up by conversion mistakes...


On 8/30/24 8:02 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

Was the Hubbell Telescope screwup related to metric vs 'merican?

 Original Message 
From: "Shayne Lebrun"
Sent: 8/30/2024 9:55:43 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

The browser-tab title goes here

Say, did you know that the Apollo Guidance Computer, from the first 
iteration in 1958, did all of it’s internal calculations in metric, 
then converted to imperial for display to the astronauts?


So yes, America went to the Moon on metric.

*Shayne Lebrun *

Senior Systems Analyst

Logo Description automatically generated

Support: supp...@lakelandnetworks.com 
705-640-0556 | TF: 844-444-4249


Direct: sleb...@lakelandnetworks.com 
  705-646-1846 x583 | 
 https://www.lakelandnetworks.com/faqs/ 


Lakeland Networks __

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 9:12 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

'

EXTERNAL Email Disclaimer

CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. Exercise 
caution when clicking on links or opening attachments even if you 
recognize the sender.


Totally missed that last part XD

There are two kinds of countries:  those that use the metric system 
and those that have been the moon.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 8:52?AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Because he used metric, or because he spelled it metre?

 Original Message 
From: "Josh Luthman"
Sent: 8/28/2024 7:40:18 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

OK Euro guy...let the American's get the job done.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 11:59?PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

We use EXFO otdr's on some spans that are 160km and we can get
it down to the metre.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 7:07?PM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

Don't you document where your splices are?  If you see
your splices every 33k and see it's broken 1 mile from the
last splice it should be pretty obvious, no?

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 6:26?PM  wrote:

Magical device called a fusion splicer.  Our reels
were typically 33,000’

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 27, 2024 3:51 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

I don't see how you have a 50 mile span.  Even if you
get 80k reels that's 15 miles.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 5:19?PM  wrote:

When you have spans up to 50-75 miles at times,
you have to use longer high power pulses. There is
a lot of variability in velocity of propagation,
earth temperature, splice slack loops, fiber
twist.  1 mile error over 50 miles is only 2%. You
can easily be off by several thousand feet. You
can’t just go dig.  You have to go to the closest
splice point and test again, even then if you it
show the fault 2000 feet away and you dig at 2000
feet you may be off by 20 feet or more.  I have
been doing this for decades.  Takes lots of
digging to actually find it.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 27, 2024 3:01 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

A mile?! IDK how that's possible.  Every time we
turn a new splitter on the sequentials and OTDR
are within a few feet - we lose a couple of feet
in butt splices and our sequentials end up wrong. 
Every new reel gets tested on delivery and it's
right on.

When we had a broken fiber (ants) it was right on
the case. When we had a broken fiber (ribbon got
knicked with installation) it was between two cases.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 3:48?PM 
wrote:

Wow, sometimes looking for gopher damager over
20 miles I have been off a mile.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 27, 2024 1:30 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

So far 

Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

[Robert]

Our trip to Jasper last year was liters all the way...

On 8/30/24 8:26 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

The browser-tab title goes here
They still have double speeds posted in places in the UK and they use 
F & C for temps.  Confusing.  Canada used to sell gasoline by imperial 
gallons (do they still?) which are more than one US gallon.  I 
sometimes refer to our system of measure as imperial units but that 
fails with imperial gallons.  The official term is “US Customary 
Measure” for the units we all use and love.  Except for slugs, nobody 
but physics teachers use slugs.

*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2024 9:19 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables
I remember going on a sales call to British Telecom in the 1990s with 
the head of my company's intl division, who was a raving lunatic. He 
had driven 20 miles the wrong direction and was trying to make up time 
so we didn't miss our flight out of Heathrow.


I saw the speedometer read 100 and thought we were going to die, but 
calmed down when I realized it was kph not mph.


A few days later it occurred to me we were in England and it was 
actually 100 mph.


 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 8/30/2024 10:05:42 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
I am surprised that it even existed in 1958 as that program was not 
even announced until the 1960s.

*From:* Shayne Lebrun
*Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2024 8:54 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

Say, did you know that the Apollo Guidance Computer, from the first 
iteration in 1958, did all of it’s internal calculations in metric, 
then converted to imperial for display to the astronauts?


So yes, America went to the Moon on metric.

*Shayne Lebrun *

Senior Systems Analyst

Logo Description automatically generated

Support: supp...@lakelandnetworks.com  705-640-0556 | TF: 844-444-4249

Direct: sleb...@lakelandnetworks.com 705-646-1846 x583 | 
https://www.lakelandnetworks.com/faqs/ 


Lakeland Networks __

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 9:12 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

'

EXTERNAL Email Disclaimer

CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. Exercise 
caution when clicking on links or opening attachments even if you 
recognize the sender.


Totally missed that last part XD

There are two kinds of countries:  those that use the metric system 
and those that have been the moon.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 8:52?AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Because he used metric, or because he spelled it metre?

 Original Message 
From: "Josh Luthman"
Sent: 8/28/2024 7:40:18 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

OK Euro guy...let the American's get the job done.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 11:59?PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

We use EXFO otdr's on some spans that are 160km and we can get
it down to the metre.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 7:07?PM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

Don't you document where your splices are?  If you see
your splices every 33k and see it's broken 1 mile from the
last splice it should be pretty obvious, no?

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 6:26?PM  wrote:

Magical device called a fusion splicer.  Our reels
were typically 33,000’

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 27, 2024 3:51 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

I don't see how you have a 50 mile span.  Even if you
get 80k reels that's 15 miles.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 5:19?PM  wrote:

When you have spans up to 50-75 miles at times,
you have to use longer high power pulses. There is
a lot of variability in velocity of propagation,
earth temperature, splice slack loops, fiber
twist.  1 mile error over 50 miles is only 2%. 
You can easily be off by several thousand feet. 
You can’t just go dig.  You have to go to the
closest splice point and test again, even then if
you it show the fault 2000 feet away and you dig
at 2000 feet you may be off by 20 feet or more.  I
have been doing this for decades. Takes lots of
digging to actually find it.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, Augus

Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

[Robert]

Driving in England in the late 80's at 100mph felt safer than driving in 
the US at 60 at the time.  The British drivers were very disciplined 
compared to the insanity in the US...   At least on the M's


On 8/30/24 8:19 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
I remember going on a sales call to British Telecom in the 1990s with 
the head of my company's intl division, who was a raving lunatic. He 
had driven 20 miles the wrong direction and was trying to make up time 
so we didn't miss our flight out of Heathrow.


I saw the speedometer read 100 and thought we were going to die, but 
calmed down when I realized it was kph not mph.


A few days later it occurred to me we were in England and it was 
actually 100 mph.


 Original Message 
From: ch...@go-mtc.com
Sent: 8/30/2024 10:05:42 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

The browser-tab title goes here v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} 
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
I am surprised that it even existed in 1958 as that program was not 
even announced until the 1960s.

*From:* Shayne Lebrun
*Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2024 8:54 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

Say, did you know that the Apollo Guidance Computer, from the first 
iteration in 1958, did all of it’s internal calculations in metric, 
then converted to imperial for display to the astronauts?


So yes, America went to the Moon on metric.

*Shayne Lebrun *

Senior Systems Analyst

Logo Description automatically generated

Support: supp...@lakelandnetworks.com  705-640-0556 | TF: 844-444-4249

Direct: sleb...@lakelandnetworks.com 705-646-1846 x583 | 
https://www.lakelandnetworks.com/faqs/ 


Lakeland Networks __

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2024 9:12 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

'

EXTERNAL Email Disclaimer

CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. Exercise 
caution when clicking on links or opening attachments even if you 
recognize the sender.


Totally missed that last part XD

There are two kinds of countries:  those that use the metric system 
and those that have been the moon.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2024 at 8:52?AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Because he used metric, or because he spelled it metre?

 Original Message 
From: "Josh Luthman"
Sent: 8/28/2024 7:40:18 AM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

OK Euro guy...let the American's get the job done.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 11:59?PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

We use EXFO otdr's on some spans that are 160km and we can get
it down to the metre.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 7:07?PM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

Don't you document where your splices are?  If you see
your splices every 33k and see it's broken 1 mile from the
last splice it should be pretty obvious, no?

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 6:26?PM  wrote:

Magical device called a fusion splicer.  Our reels
were typically 33,000’

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 27, 2024 3:51 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

I don't see how you have a 50 mile span.  Even if you
get 80k reels that's 15 miles.

On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 5:19?PM  wrote:

When you have spans up to 50-75 miles at times,
you have to use longer high power pulses. There is
a lot of variability in velocity of propagation,
earth temperature, splice slack loops, fiber
twist.  1 mile error over 50 miles is only 2%. 
You can easily be off by several thousand feet. 
You can’t just go dig.  You have to go to the
closest splice point and test again, even then if
you it show the fault 2000 feet away and you dig
at 2000 feet you may be off by 20 feet or more.  I
have been doing this for decades. Takes lots of
digging to actually find it.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, August 27, 2024 3:01 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] fiber patch cables

A mile?!  IDK how that's possible. Every time we
turn a new splitter on the sequentials and OTDR
are within a few feet - we lose a couple of feet
in butt splices and our sequentials end up wrong.
 

Re: [AFMUG] movies.....

[Robert Andrews]

& amazingly strong with 2-3 people slithering down them!

On 8/8/24 12:26, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

Air ducts are always very clean in the movies.
*From:* Nate Burke
*Sent:* Thursday, August 8, 2024 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] movies.

Have you ever seen a movie?  Once you get into the drop ceiling, you can 
run and jump just like it's a floor.  They're also clean and well lit.


On 8/8/2024 1:54 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


You can't really stand on a suspended ceiling. The heaviest thing up 
there were the 2x4 florescent light fixtures that rested between the T 
bars. They did have HVAC duct work, and phone lines and some 
electrical, but those things were not resting on the suspended ceiling 
T bars.


bp

On 8/8/2024 11:36 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


Was the space above high enough to stand in?  I don’t recall where I 
was, but I remember being above a ceiling somewhere and walking on 
top of the walls.


I bet there are no cameras up there either.  Sounds perfect, Bill.  
Count me in on the heist.


*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Thursday, August 08, 2024 2:33 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] movies.

We did service to a store in a strip mall once. The best line of 
sight was above another store, but when I got into the suspended 
ceiling, I discovered that the walls between stores did not go to the 
roof. You could run any wire from any store to any other store if you 
went above the suspended ceiling.


bp


On 8/8/2024 11:26 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

When I read “tunneling through stores”  I pictured a big core
drill through adjacent basements.  Sawing through drywall
partitions is a lot less dramatic, but geez, is that the only
thing between stores?

At our local mall there’s a maintenance corridor behind the
stores with only a drywall partition between the corridor the
stores.  I’ve drilled through it to install Internet service
there so I know as a fact it’s just a double layer drywall
partition.  Somehow it never occurred to me, but yeah someone
could definitely access any store from there with nothing more
than a drywall saw. Oh and the corridor was never locked…..I know
that because friends and I used to use it as a shortcut when we
were young and defiant badasses with no respect for The Man and
his stupid rules.

I don’t know about the walls between stores, but apparently those
might also just be drywall partitions.

-Adam

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Nate Burke
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 07, 2024 4:55 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] movies.

Here, this is better than the movies.  What just happened here
locally.

From

https://www.dailyherald.com/20240805/news/burglars-tunnel-through-stores-to-steal-1-5m-in-jewelry-from-marquise-jewelry-in-schaumburg/

In what appeared to be a calculated crime, burglars cut through
the walls of multiple stores overnight to get into Marquise
Jewelry in Schaumburg and steal merchandise worth $1.5 million.

“Everything was gone. They did not leave us anything,” said owner
Asma Anwar. “This was a well-planned burglary.”

Anwar and Shazad Malik walked into their store at the Woodfield
Mall Friday morning to find their shelves wiped clean by burglars
who had broken in during the overnight hours.

“I came into this place that I worked hard for 13 years to build,
and I came to this place, and it was wiped. I was speechless at
that point,” Malik said.

The couple said they were told by police that there were six
people involved, after the mall closed for the night; but they
said they weren't notified about the break-in until the next morning.

“I need answers on how this was going on for overnight hours,
after mall hours, how was this going on that the security was not
notified,” said Anwar.

Schaumburg police said the crime was discovered by a construction
worker who entered a vacant store adjacent to Marquise Jewelry at
about 9:30 a.m. Monday and reported a hole in the drywall. Police
said they found the suspects covered one of the surveillance
cameras to avoid detection.

More disturbing was how the burglars gained access to their
store. The couple found a small hole in the wall, and later
learned from police the burglars cut through the walls of three
other businesses to get to their jewelry store.

“This is a concern my family's safety, this is a concern for my
safety. This is a concern for millions of people walking in this
mall,” Anwar said.

The couple said they have security in their store and the mall
also has security patrolling overnight, so it's unclear why they
were not notified sooner.

“We are small business owners. We ar

Re: [AFMUG] OT Evap cooling

[Robert]

And they last a long time, with just a little work...

https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/07/07/nearly-90-years-old-wyomings-first-air-conditioner-still-works/


On 7/11/24 4:47 PM, Bill Prince wrote:
Yeah. Those swamp coolers are the hot ticket (pun intended) in the 
central valley here in California.


In my early days here I dated a woman who taught school out by Fresno. 
She and all her neighbors had swamp coolers. They seemed to work just 
great.


--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 2:22 PM  wrote:

It is 100 outside and 75 inside.
22,400 square feet of metal shop building.  All due to swamp cooling.
16% humidity outdoors 75% indoors.
All for the cost of spinning a blower and pumping a tiny bit of
water.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

[Robert]

& you probably make enough that it is going to cost extra...

On 7/8/24 9:10 AM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
I am all for nationalized health care.  But I am old enough that it is 
right around the corner for me.
My wife just about croaked in Barcelona last summer. Spent a week in a 
hospital there until I arranged a jail break.  Paid absolutely nothing.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2024 8:16 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

To the original post: People hung up on college degrees might not be 
if they saw what some of the trades are making.  I’ve been in 
communications & IT for 24 years, but if I’d started as an electrical 
linesman instead then I’d be only a few years from retirement. They 
are doing hard--and sometimes dangerous—work, but they are getting 
paid big bucks to do it.  People in master mechanics programs are also 
cleaning house right now.


I have a CIS degree.  My experience is that college teaches you 
/about/ things, but not how to /do/ things.  Sometimes you do need 
that background about the topic to be good at doing it, and other 
times it really didn’t matter.  It’s also clear to me that what you 
get out of college is proportional to what you put into it (and I 
suppose that’s true of life in general), so if someone is going to 
college because it’s expected of them and not because of a real 
interest in the subject then their outcome will be less optimal than 
if they did something they actually liked or at least found engaging.


To Steve regarding funding STEM degrees: I agree whole heartedly with 
that, and it’s something I’ve said in other forums.  Someone told me 
that funding only STEM degrees is equivalent to the government telling 
people what jobs they can have.  Au contraire, the /economy/ is 
telling people what jobs they can have, and this would just be 
allocating funding according to economic reality.  You can get a 
degree in chemical engineering and still become an English teacher if 
you happen to be good at that subject, and that’s what you really want 
to do, but you’d also have another marketable set of knowledge you can 
use in other contexts.


I’ll take you one step further: I consider myself a conservative (a 
moderate one; a New York conservative), and I’m on board with 
universal healthcare.  Let’s do it.  Forget the bleeding heart 
arguments about it, just look at the economic realities.


1) The systems in other countries result in less health care spending 
per capita.


2) In countries with universal healthcare their small businesses and 
startups are not handicapped with trying to pay for employees’ health 
insurance.  Here they have to offer insurance to be competitive in the 
labor market, and it’s a major hurdle for having success with a business.


3) We /already/ put about as much public money per capita into 
covering people’s medical bills as other countries do, and we’re only 
covering a portion of people with specific circumstances.  Either get 
all meddling fingers out of it and let the market figure out what to 
do, or go all in and rebuild the system so it works.  We’re one foot 
in and one foot out right now and it’s brutally expensive and by many 
metrics it’s not all that effective.  I know some would argue more in 
favor of letting the market handle it, but recall that we’ve done that 
before and we had quacks calling themselves doctors and selling all 
kinds of bullshit to people.  I’m thinking back when Coca-Cola 
contained cocaine and was sold as a medicine.  If you let the market 
run the show completely then you have to accept bad outcomes along 
with the good ones.  Civil court didn’t fix it all then, and I don’t 
see why it would now either.


-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Friday, July 05, 2024 7:24 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT Happy Holidays

I think im one of the only conservatives that is pro free higher 
education. More as an investment than as an expense


remove all liberal arts, STEM, not STEAM only (you want an art history 
degree, you can pay for it), 1:1 community service requirement per 
classroom instruction hour, manual labor or degree related community 
service only, 90% mandatory score, 95% mandatory attendance, 100 
percent drug and alcohol abstinence during the school year, tested 
biweekly. Zero criminal tolerance. You pay on the loan until youve 
completed the mandatory community service and repay all deferments 
from that time period. Then each year you maintain full time 
employment, 10 percent is waived for 10 years. but that would actually 
require something, so of course it would be too unfair.


On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 12:52 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:


I feel that it's  time for college to go through a major revision.

First, I lean quite strongly toward the Mike Rowe worldview in
that we need to quit telling our kids that they need a coll

Re: [AFMUG] Microsoft

[Robert Andrews]

I envision hell as a place MS engineers have to go and support their 
product to seniors...


When I want to be like Peter Pan and fly, my happy thought is Bill 
Gates having to get a big tax deal signed for the IRS in the next few 
minutes and he has to wait for his windows system to do updates...




On 6/29/24 10:03, Steve Jones wrote:

I LOVE Microsoft
These guys are the best
One of my favorites is making the network adapter like 30 billion clicks 
deep and throwing in the new network adapter settings thing that screws 
up nerd configs. I love it
I love that OneNote was absolutely perfect and they turned it into a 
shitbird webapp
I love that they constantly depreciate fully functional features and if 
they replace them its cracked out versions of its former self, totally hawt.


I cant lie, i did love that when windows 10 got pushed on us, printers 
that hadnt worked in forever suddenly had support, their generic print 
driver was pretty amazing, but thankfully in true microsoft fashion, 
they made sure to obliterate that in w11.


I think its like when Meta got caught trying to fuck with depressed 
people. Microsoft knows they are so embedded in the world that they want 
to keep us all slightly frustrated. I dont know if theres a 
conspircay associated with that or if theyre just dicks. I lean toward 
them just being dicks



On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 10:46 PM Ryan Ray > wrote:


I have a few hundred employees embedded into the Office 365
infrastructure and it's not that bad. I've been a Windows
Administrator since the NT days, migrated a school district from
Novell Netware to AD when it was time.

The intune management platforms are good for computers and devices
as an MDM service. It is a little slow processing new policies due
to it being "in the cloud".

Sharepoint is a decent-ish document management / website portal for
your employees. It's nice to be able to do a lot of searches into
your company and figure out what's happening with your data.

Outside of work I don't personally like some decisions they're
making, like shoehorning things like "recall" into your OS. I don't
like them fucking with my OS, and advertising. It takes a bunch of
work to use intune policies to remove a lot of the "Cruft" out of
the OS, especially for employees.

I really like the Windows Susbsystem Linux. It's nice to be able to
run a Ubuntu box on my windows machine.

It depends what you're looking to do. I also use MacOS quite
heavily. You should use all OS's and determine what you like about
each one to keep your life moving forward.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 4:43 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote:

Oops, one more, how did I forget this one?  It kind of sums up
all the others.


https://www.howtogeek.com/my-windows-computer-just-doesnt-feel-like-mine-anymore/ 


__ __

__ __

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
*Sent:* Friday, June 28, 2024 6:10 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Microsoft

__ __

We do subscribe to MS 365. Partially for the office suite of
programs (mostly Word and Excel for us), but the main attraction
is that we get 6TB of online backup for a measly $99/year. It's
the best value in online backup that I know.

__ __

Personally, I've been using ThunderChicken for email longer than
I can remember.

__ __

and Micro$oft has always been evil and incompetent. 

__ __

This brings an old joke to mind




--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

__ __

__ __

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 3:58 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:khoh...@kwom.com>> wrote:


https://www.pcworld.com/article/2376883/attention-microsoft-activates-this-feature-in-windows-11-without-asking-you.html
 



https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/06/microsoft-removes-documentation-for-switching-to-a-local-account-in-windows-11/
 


https://www.howtogeek.com/windows-11-start-menu-ads-how-to-turn-them-off/ 



https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/30/23851902/microsoft-bing-popups-windows-11-malware 



https://www.techradar.com/computi

Re: [AFMUG] Hey Bill Prince

[Robert]

That is a really tough question these days as it's all about the traffic.

I did that commute for 20 years!   No traffic ( going home at midnight ) 
I could do it in 45 minutes.


If the traffic lays on, it could take 2+ hours.

As with so many things in life,
timing is everything...

On 6/17/24 8:04 PM, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:

Nice, that is what I remembered.
How long does it take to get there from Cupertino?
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, June 17, 2024 6:28 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Hey Bill Prince
Nothing happened to the Santa Cruz beach boardwalk, still a lot of fun 
for everyone!



https://beachboardwalk.com/Rides/


On 6/17/24 12:48 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:


You're going to need more than 3 days, all of the things you 
mentioned are hours, plural, apart .  Santa Cruz used to have an 
amusement park.  I know they have a real nice beach and lots of 
touristy stores on the pier.  They used to have the largest roller 
coaster, but I think someone tore it down.  Ghiradelli's chocolate 
emporium and the exploratorium are going to take a day minimum and 
then you'll need to walk the wharf and see the schooner.  I used to 
know the owner of the parrot that the former captain of the Balclutha 
had before he died and the family.  The best chowder is on the wharf 
near the Balclutha, ditto for sour-dough bread. Ripley's believe it 
or not, the wax museum, and a hundred other places to lose your money 
having fun.


On 6/7/24 09:22, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
Planning a 3 day largely unstructured excursion around the bay area 
with grand children and their DNA donors.
Day 1 Computer Museum, Winchester House then thinking of heading 
toward Monterey for the clam chowder samples and perhaps the 
aquarium.  This might stretch into the second day.  Is there an 
amusement part in Half Moon Bay?  I seem to remember some touristy 
stuff there.
Then downtown SF, street cars, wharf with navy vessels and Bubba 
Gump shrimp, perhaps Alcatraz.

Then ??? and home.






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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Hey Bill Prince

[Robert]

Nothing happened to the Santa Cruz beach boardwalk, still a lot of fun 
for everyone!



https://beachboardwalk.com/Rides/


On 6/17/24 12:48 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:


You're going to need more than 3 days, all of the things you mentioned 
are hours, plural, apart .  Santa Cruz used to have an amusement 
park.  I know they have a real nice beach and lots of touristy stores 
on the pier.  They used to have the largest roller coaster, but I 
think someone tore it down.  Ghiradelli's chocolate emporium and the 
exploratorium are going to take a day minimum and then you'll need to 
walk the wharf and see the schooner.  I used to know the owner of the 
parrot that the former captain of the Balclutha had before he died and 
the family.  The best chowder is on the wharf near the Balclutha, 
ditto for sour-dough bread.  Ripley's believe it or not, the wax 
museum, and a hundred other places to lose your money having fun.


On 6/7/24 09:22, ch...@go-mtc.com wrote:
Planning a 3 day largely unstructured excursion around the bay area 
with grand children and their DNA donors.
Day 1 Computer Museum, Winchester House then thinking of heading 
toward Monterey for the clam chowder samples and perhaps the 
aquarium.  This might stretch into the second day.  Is there an 
amusement part in Half Moon Bay? I seem to remember some touristy 
stuff there.
Then downtown SF, street cars, wharf with navy vessels and Bubba Gump 
shrimp, perhaps Alcatraz.

Then ??? and home.



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Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

[Robert]

What VC invest in flows back and forth. Most partners in vc come from 
the ranks of the companies the vc invested in and that then profited the 
vc's back and made the future partners rich.  So the "method of success" 
depends upon the experience of the jr. partners and what they decide to 
put $$ in is related to their risk experience.   Facebook had _no_ 
method of monetization for the first 4 years.  They were just given 
runway and cash to expand with the understanding that it was so 
compelling and sticky that pulling $$ out of the enormous user base 
would be easy to generate $$ when the time came.  VC "harvest"  $$ from 
their investments after IPO.  They understand that they hold enough 
shares to trigger runs on stocks if they pull out too fast after IPO   
Typical harvests are over 10 years and after that they care little about 
the companies.  Until then they are very involved.  ( Look at when 
google was turned back over to the founders. ) ..



So "burning piles of cash" goes in and out of style.


Streaming is a whole separate animal due to all the ways that the 
content is tied into legal knots.  Look at the streaming companies and 
most are tied to major content companies already so as to secure the 
content through legacy agreements.   VC wants little to do with that 
pile of crap.  They got burned out on that 15 years ago.  You have to 
have a very special proprietary key to that lock for them to be 
interested and proof that the key fits the lock.



I've gone the VC route 3 times as part of exec teams.   Once 40 years 
ago when I didn't ask for enough to show I knew my head from my ass...   
25 years ago when I was hooked to a company because of my "rep" and 
watched us ( me included ) try to sell BPG optimization as a major 
company possibility.  And prior to that as part of a team that was 
looking for second round for a collaboration tool.  That was hard as the 
users already liked the product but it was in a downturn in VC funding 
and everything was getting rejected.


The hardest part of vc funding is that they are like sheep, when one 
goes a particular direction they all go that direction.  When one 
company gets known as "hot" they all chomp at the bit to fund, otherwise 
it's  horrible what they do to the companies.   They won't sign NDA's, 
share info under the table, do stuff that should get them in front of 
the FTC.   "Investors" are still pretty much run by the VC's IMNSHO..   
Just more through the back doors and buddy system...  Because after you 
get the little $$ out of the way you run into the ones with the deep 
pockets and those are run by the VC's...


On 6/3/24 10:45 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

The old saying is "lose money on every sale but make it up on volume".  The new 
equivalent is "fake it 'til you make it".  Amazon is the classic example of one that 
worked out.  Many have a non obvious revenue model that involve selling ads or customer data, 
that's how TV manufacturers can sell TVs at cost.

But investors seem to be losing patience with business plans that just burn 
piles of cash with no plan to ever become profitable.  This seems to have hit 
streaming companies, which everyone assumes are all profitable, but actually 
most are not.

MoviePass seems to have been doomed, as was WeWork.  There was Theranos.  Seems like 
there is a blurred line between "fake it 'til you make it" and outright scams 
and pyramid schemes.  All of us can attest that you need to ramp up to a certain number 
of customers to achieve economies of scale, but it should be possible to show some math 
how that leads to eventual profitability.  Otherwise you're like the underpants gnomes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ih_TQWqCA



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2024 11:52 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

I consulted for three VC's after Nscp and L3...  The wisdom in their thoughts 
at the time was a home run in one out of 20 was doing well... Their thoughts 
about founders was about 1/3 idea and 2/3 the ability of the founder to gather 
talent around them...   Your rolodex was as important as your execution...  
Seed money is easy.   A good presentation deck and glib tongue.   Getting money 
for the first round isn't that hard.   Getting the second round was the test of 
your business. 1MM seed, 4-10MM first, unicorns got 100MM for second, and the 
sky was the limit on the 3rd...

On 6/3/24 7:18 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

" ...the startups that light piles of money on fire until it runs out
seem to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.  Maybe they have
golden parachutes."

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.

I read a quote from one of those zillionaire entrepreneurs that he had
to fail at seven bu

Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

[Robert]

I consulted for three VC's after Nscp and L3...  The wisdom in their 
thoughts at the time was a home run in one out of 20 was doing well...   
Their thoughts about founders was about 1/3 idea and 2/3 the ability of 
the founder to gather talent around them...   Your rolodex was as 
important as your execution...  Seed money is easy.   A good 
presentation deck and glib tongue.   Getting money for the first round 
isn't that hard.   Getting the second round was the test of your 
business. 1MM seed, 4-10MM first, unicorns got 100MM for second, and the 
sky was the limit on the 3rd...


On 6/3/24 7:18 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

" ...the startups that light piles of money on fire until it runs out seem
to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.  Maybe they have golden
parachutes."

If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.

I read a quote from one of those zillionaire entrepreneurs that he had to
fail at seven businesses before he hit it big with one.  So I guess it takes
a lot of practice to get it right.  My question is how did he get investment
the 8th time after having those seven failures on his rap sheet?  Or the
2nd-7th time for that matter.  That's gotta be somebody with connections in
the good-ol-boys network.

If investors would just give me 8 chances at startups I'm sure I could be a
self-made zillionaire too.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 6:42 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

That'll buff out.

Or if you're a Monty Pyton fan, "It's just a flesh wound".

Or if you've watched Roadkill on Motor Trend TV, "Dzus it back on".

The pilots here can tell me if there's really an expression CFIT (Controlled
Flight Into Terrain).  But I think that's supposed to be unintentional,
whereas the startups that light piles of money on fire until it runs out
seem to be actively flying the plane into the dirt.  Maybe they have golden
parachutes.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2024 3:27 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] MoviePass documentary

Bet that smarts.

bp


On 5/31/2024 10:09 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:

fly the plane into the ground

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Re: [AFMUG] AI tools

[Robert]

Isn't there something in "The Art of War" about getting your foe to 
underestimate you?


On 6/3/24 5:31 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
I might give the free thing a whirl.  I'm a doubter on these things.  
I've gotten to the bottom of enough weird bugs to find that some 
pretty specific sets of circumstances and interactions between the 
idiosyncrasies of different systems can result in weird behaviors.  I 
just mean in general, I don't know anything about AI.  My point is 
there will be bugs, and you don't know how it will manifest.


I have fiddled with Chat GPT and asking it technical questions.  Ask 
it about a topic you know a lot about and you'll find that it can give 
answers that are incredibly accurate and precise, or pretty good but 
missing important context, or it can be completely, embarrassingly 
wrong.  Like "how could you get that so wrong you stupid machine? 
You'll never manage to defeat humanity and take over the world if 
you're going to make blunders like this."




On Sat, Jun 1, 2024 at 7:27 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Anybody here use AI on a daily basis, like for research or
creative purposes?

I’m an AI naysayer, but this looks awfully attractive.  There’s a
free tier, or unlock the full capability and almost unlimited
queries for $20/mo.  I’m not sure I could do a decent eval on it
though.


https://www.howtogeek.com/perplexity-is-the-only-paid-ai-chatbot-you-need-heres-why/

https://www.perplexity.ai/pro

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Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

I wouldn't use a home made battery in a production site.   _Every_ LFP 
battery I look at has a bms.   They are getting almost cheaper to buy 
with a bms than you can source new cells for without unless you go to 
the auction sites...


On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
LFP batteries need a special charger unless they are equipped with a 
built-in BMS. Many, if not most 12V LFP batteries have a built-in BMS.



bp


On 5/7/2024 10:43 AM, Robert wrote:
While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP 
batteries, one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 
volts ( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power 
use?   Is there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a 
samlex to charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a 
bank of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in 
the future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would 
be a pretty simple system.







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Re: [AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

I have 60KW of EG4s and am seeing more and more posts of failing BMSs on 
them.  They are showing up on the LFP auction sites for $500 with failed 
BMSs in higher and higher numbers.   Making me nervous of my rack 
reliability..


On 5/7/24 11:36 AM, TJ Trout wrote:
they would work fine at that voltage, but not 100% charged which is a 
good thing. Regular power supplies cannot divert current like a 
DRS-480 for example, so if your system goes to 0% and dies, when AC 
power is restored the power supplies will need to charge the batteries 
and power your load at the same time, if the minimum voltage of your 
equipment isn't met then you might still be offline for some time 
while the batteries charge up to the minimum equipment voltage... 
lifepo4 batteries are a great investment IMO and cheaper than lead if 
you look at the whole picture but I would avoid cheapy amazon 
batteries that are likely to have crap BMS that will fail. Stick with 
EG4 or other known good mfg.


On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 10:52 AM Robert  wrote:

While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP
batteries,
one thing I cannot find an answer to:

Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4
volts
( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is
there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to
charge an LFP battery?

Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain
a bank
of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the
future...

    Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that
would be
a pretty simple system.

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Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell

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[AFMUG] LFP charging...

[Robert]

While I have used, read about, studied, and debated about LFP batteries, 
one thing I cannot find an answer to:


Is there a problem with using a regular voltage supply set to 13.4 volts 
( 90% ) charge to maintain a LFP battery for backup power use?   Is 
there a need to buy a specialized battery charger like a samlex to 
charge an LFP battery?


Note that I am currently using regular power supplies to maintain a bank 
of LFPs.   I just don't know if I am setting up for an issue in the 
future...


   Self heating 12v batteries have reached a new low with one just 
becoming available on Amazon for $229 and, with a netonix, that would be 
a pretty simple system.


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Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

Also CPE observation time is 3 minutes...

On 5/6/24 1:10 PM, Robert wrote:
If you look at the orbits the density of the non-polar paths get 
higher at higher latitudes so when there were only 200-500 sats in 
orbit, you got a lot more sat "hits" looking farther north.   The pass 
off time from one sat to another is much lower than you might expect 
when the sat is actually visible for 4-10 minutes in the 100 degree 
arc that the CPE observes.  On the order of 1-3 minutes pass-off 
time.    Now that they are at 5->10K sats you can look anywhere and 
get massive number of hits in that 1-3 minutes. They didn't start 
polar orbits until about a year ago to hit Alaska and higher 
latitudes.   They needed the cross sat relays to work before they 
could reach decent ground stations from that north/south.   Looking 
north doesn't help anymore except to optimize avoiding the Clark orbits.


On 5/6/24 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I presumed they were in polar orbits.
Google shows a bunch of criss cross inclined orbits.
I don’t see how looking in the northern direction would help.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both 
times it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't 
need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are 
using the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   
If you aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the 
Clark Belt no problemo.  Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt 
is just a hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to 
use a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get 
more density at the northern inclinations of the orbits.   That is 
going away rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my 
RV for mobile use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an 
actual obstruction.   It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to 
obstruct the dish and we are seeing the latest s/w doing much better 
with a smaller sky area and probably 15 degrees higher in latitude 
than in the past.  Some people have seen their dishes pointing east 
and west and, amazingly, south.  I suspect that was because Starlink 
was testing the relay system on them. The latest version of the dish 
is supposed to support dual beams from what people are reading in the 
software analysis.  It comes with a fixed stand that only tilts it 
about 15-20 degrees off vertical.  The understanding is that the tilt 
is now just for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users.  It puts 
the mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w.  _Not_ throttled.   
Lower speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks 
experience it and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier 
than we probably would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink.   
I've seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain. Granted that is rare in N. 
NV.  But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both 
directions.   I got my first solid disconnection during a massive 
storm in TX when we were there for the eclipse.   That was enough 
rain that it was piling up in the street.  I didn't check my weather 
station as we were headed for a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had
not heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she 
was paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the 
service with mobile users j

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

oops I misremembered...   15 SECOND pass-off time...

On 5/6/24 1:10 PM, Robert wrote:
If you look at the orbits the density of the non-polar paths get 
higher at higher latitudes so when there were only 200-500 sats in 
orbit, you got a lot more sat "hits" looking farther north.   The pass 
off time from one sat to another is much lower than you might expect 
when the sat is actually visible for 4-10 minutes in the 100 degree 
arc that the CPE observes.  On the order of 1-3 minutes pass-off 
time.    Now that they are at 5->10K sats you can look anywhere and 
get massive number of hits in that 1-3 minutes. They didn't start 
polar orbits until about a year ago to hit Alaska and higher 
latitudes.   They needed the cross sat relays to work before they 
could reach decent ground stations from that north/south.   Looking 
north doesn't help anymore except to optimize avoiding the Clark orbits.


On 5/6/24 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I presumed they were in polar orbits.
Google shows a bunch of criss cross inclined orbits.
I don’t see how looking in the northern direction would help.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both 
times it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't 
need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are 
using the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   
If you aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the 
Clark Belt no problemo.  Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt 
is just a hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to 
use a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get 
more density at the northern inclinations of the orbits.   That is 
going away rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my 
RV for mobile use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an 
actual obstruction.   It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to 
obstruct the dish and we are seeing the latest s/w doing much better 
with a smaller sky area and probably 15 degrees higher in latitude 
than in the past.  Some people have seen their dishes pointing east 
and west and, amazingly, south.  I suspect that was because Starlink 
was testing the relay system on them. The latest version of the dish 
is supposed to support dual beams from what people are reading in the 
software analysis.  It comes with a fixed stand that only tilts it 
about 15-20 degrees off vertical.  The understanding is that the tilt 
is now just for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users.  It puts 
the mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w.  _Not_ throttled.   
Lower speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks 
experience it and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier 
than we probably would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink.   
I've seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain. Granted that is rare in N. 
NV.  But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both 
directions.   I got my first solid disconnection during a massive 
storm in TX when we were there for the eclipse.   That was enough 
rain that it was piling up in the street.  I didn't check my weather 
station as we were headed for a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had
not heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she 
was paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the 
service with mo

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

If you look at the orbits the density of the non-polar paths get higher 
at higher latitudes so when there were only 200-500 sats in orbit, you 
got a lot more sat "hits" looking farther north.   The pass off time 
from one sat to another is much lower than you might expect when the sat 
is actually visible for 4-10 minutes in the 100 degree arc that the CPE 
observes.  On the order of 1-3 minutes pass-off time.    Now that they 
are at 5->10K sats you can look anywhere and get massive number of hits 
in that 1-3 minutes.   They didn't start polar orbits until about a year 
ago to hit Alaska and higher latitudes.   They needed the cross sat 
relays to work before they could reach decent ground stations from that 
north/south. Looking north doesn't help anymore except to optimize 
avoiding the Clark orbits.


On 5/6/24 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I presumed they were in polar orbits.
Google shows a bunch of criss cross inclined orbits.
I don’t see how looking in the northern direction would help.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both times 
it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are using 
the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   If you 
aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the Clark Belt 
no problemo. Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt is just a 
hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to 
use a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get 
more density at the northern inclinations of the orbits.   That is 
going away rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my 
RV for mobile use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an actual 
obstruction.   It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to obstruct the 
dish and we are seeing the latest s/w doing much better with a smaller 
sky area and probably 15 degrees higher in latitude than in the past.  
Some people have seen their dishes pointing east and west and, 
amazingly, south.  I suspect that was because Starlink was testing the 
relay system on them. The latest version of the dish is supposed to 
support dual beams from what people are reading in the software 
analysis.  It comes with a fixed stand that only tilts it about 15-20 
degrees off vertical.  The understanding is that the tilt is now just 
for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users. It puts the 
mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w. _Not_ throttled.   Lower 
speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks experience 
it and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier than we 
probably would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink.   I've 
seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain. Granted that is rare in N. NV.  
But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both directions.   I 
got my first solid disconnection during a massive storm in TX when we 
were there for the eclipse.   That was enough rain that it was piling 
up in the street.  I didn't check my weather station as we were headed 
for a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had
not heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she 
was paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what 
she is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the 
service with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became 
too high in just over a year.

Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

There are a +Lot+ of pissed off people. T-Mobile (Actual employees, not 
resellers ) was showing up at RV shows with their home boxes and taking 
orders with a wink and a nod...  They sold thousands of them that way.   
They were dealing off the bottom of the deck on this one.   "How do you 
know a cell salesperson is lying?"


On 5/6/24 11:40 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


Excellent point about the new TMHI “Away” plan.  Reminds me of the 
Netflix crackdown on password sharing.


https://tmo.report/2024/04/uh-oh-t-mobile-will-now-enforce-home-internet-address-eligibility/

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 12:59 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was 
paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


 She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and 
promoted a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long 
enough for the bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


 Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home. If you want to do what she 
is promoting, it's now $160/month


 On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY




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Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

Well, as I said, you have to take _everything_ she writes with the 
understanding that she is an alarmist and a promoter.   I would be 
pretty sure she got paid by both T-Mobile and Hiboost, & I have seen 
others say the same problem she mentioned about Weboost but both times 
it was proven to be a bad setup.   ( I have weboost but don't need it )


Starlink has to avoid transmitting into the Clark Belt, they are using 
the same frequencies.  So they use the northern hemisphere.   If you 
aren't on the equator, your dish can be flat and avoid the Clark Belt no 
problemo.  Beam steering decides the pointing and tilt is just a 
hangover of the earlier constraints..


Before the number of sats reached where they are now, they tended to use 
a higher latitude center of focus for the sats because you get more 
density at the northern inclinations of the orbits. That is going away 
rapidly.   I flat mount my dish in the shower bubble of my RV for mobile 
use.   It shows no obstructions when not under an actual obstruction.   
It now takes a pretty high/close cliff to obstruct the dish and we are 
seeing the latest s/w doing much better with a smaller sky area and 
probably 15 degrees higher in latitude than in the past.  Some people 
have seen their dishes pointing east and west and, amazingly, south.  I 
suspect that was because Starlink was testing the relay system on them.  
The latest version of the dish is supposed to support dual beams from 
what people are reading in the software analysis.  It comes with a fixed 
stand that only tilts it about 15-20 degrees off vertical.  The 
understanding is that the tilt is now just for snow/water shedding.



Starlink has busy hour lower priority for _mobile_ users.  It puts the 
mobile users behind the fixed users for b/w.  _Not_ throttled.   Lower 
speeds during 6-10pm are for the same reasons our networks experience it 
and Starlink has loaded on the customers way heavier than we probably 
would.


It takes a _LOT_ of rain to reduce the performance of Starlink. I've 
seen no issues with 1/4-1/2"/hr rain.  Granted that is rare in N. NV.  
But they are transmitting with a lot of power in both directions.   I 
got my first solid disconnection during a massive storm in TX when we 
were there for the eclipse.   That was enough rain that it was piling up 
in the street.  I didn't check my weather station as we were headed for 
a storm shelter.


On 5/6/24 11:10 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

What I found most interesting were the following things I did not know:

  * Starlink needs a _Northern_ sky exposure
  * Starlink has busy hour throttling
  * Starlink slows with rain (expected, and understandable but had not
heard that before)

I liked that she found a brand of booster that she says works well.
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Monday, May 6, 2024 11:59 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)
I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good 
stuff.  But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was 
paid for and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and promoted 
a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long enough for the 
bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home. If you want to do what she 
is promoting, it's now $160/month


On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY




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Re: [AFMUG] Interesting (to me)

[Robert]

I've watched her for years and she has, occasionally, some good stuff.  
But on the whole she has gotten so into promoting what she was paid for 
and in a few cases gotten caught promoting bad products.


 She major league jumped on board a cell internet reseller and promoted 
a really dishonest company because she didn't wait long enough for the 
bad to come out.  Then claimed innocence...


 Well here she was again.  T-Mobile just chomped down on those people 
using T-mobile home service away from home.   If you want to do what she 
is promoting, it's now $160/month


 On _any_ cellular internet service, I say wait 1.5 years to find out 
if the provider is really going to support it or is it a bait and 
switch.   ATT did exactly that 4 years ago, even promoting the service 
with mobile users just to pull it all away after usage became too high 
in just over a year.


On 5/6/24 10:16 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

https://youtu.be/XcofyNWDyao?si=0ulY_LiFcb2HlnaY

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Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

[Robert Andrews]

My cherry was broken by an IBM 370 ( a 360 that had been hand wired to 
virtual memory in 73 ) programming in Fortran.  We also rubbed sticks 
together to make fire...


On 5/3/24 10:51, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed with 
the front panel switches.
First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected 
to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon.  It had a moon 
lander simulator on it.


-Original Message- From: Bill Prince
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would
fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time.

bp


On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote:

On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business
Oriented Language.

Hmmm, I programmed in both





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Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert Andrews]

8:03  !!

On 5/1/24 10:20, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Just barely.  I am looking more like Wilford Brimley every day.  Right 
when they pretty much gave up on getting it started.




Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 11:06 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

Didn't see you in the vid, was hoping you would be...

On 5/1/24 09:36, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
That's my son Ben in there talking about what we do here.  He pretty 
much runs the show.  I am just the old dog wandering from office to 
office looking for snacks.


-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:55 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

So it dropped... will have to take a look.  Thanks.



www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:36 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport tug
and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching equipment" (
Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks like the MTC
logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...





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Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert Andrews]

Didn't see you in the vid, was hoping you would be...

On 5/1/24 09:36, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
That's my son Ben in there talking about what we do here.  He pretty 
much runs the show.  I am just the old dog wandering from office to 
office looking for snacks.


-Original Message- From: Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:55 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

So it dropped... will have to take a look.  Thanks.



www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 9:36 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: [AFMUG] Fab Rats

Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport tug
and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching equipment" (
Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks like the MTC
logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...



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Re: [AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert]

Starts at 5:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrt78oczcwo


On 5/1/24 8:36 AM, Robert wrote:
Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport 
tug and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching 
equipment" ( Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks 
like the MTC logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...





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[AFMUG] Fab Rats....

[Robert]

Watching my youtubes this am and Fab Rats goes to pick up an airport tug 
and the fellow in the video says "We build microtrenching equipment" ( 
Fab Rats is in Utah ) and I glimpse a bit of what looks like the MTC 
logo and sure enough   MTC is on youtube...


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Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

[Robert]

My old H.S. chemistry professor ( Dr. Welch ) kept a bottle of 
hydrofluoric acid under his desk in a wax bottle of unknown quality.  
That was an interesting removal...


On 4/29/24 8:59 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Pretty much in the middle of Salt Lake City.
The guy the lived there (had died recently I think) was a chemist at 
the University of Utah.
His wife found a spill of mercury and asked for help in safely 
removing it. As a result they found over 500 containers of chemicals 
and very very old dynamite.  Totally a no win situation.


You might have been able to soak it in diesel and built a small 
electric kiln over it to incinerate in place.  But monday morning 
quarterbacking.




Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
-Original Message- From: Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:13 AM
To: AFMUG
Subject: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

FROM: News of the Weird

Boom!
In Holladay, Utah, authorities were summoned to a home on April 23 to
advise a homeowner on how to dispose of “a lot” of explosives, including
“ancient dynamite” that had been in the family for “generations and
generations.” Capt. Tony Barker of the Unified Fire Authority said the
collectors did not appear to have malicious intent. KUTV reported that
multiple agencies descended on the home, where it was determined that
they would have to conduct a controlled explosion.

Of course, that's just EAST Utah. Right Chuck?




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Re: [AFMUG] OT: East Utah fun

[Robert]

"Controlled Explosion"   Hopefully _after_ having been removed from the 
house


On 4/29/24 7:13 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

FROM: News of the Weird

Boom!
In Holladay, Utah, authorities were summoned to a home on April 23 to 
advise a homeowner on how to dispose of “a lot” of explosives, 
including “ancient dynamite” that had been in the family for 
“generations and generations.” Capt. Tony Barker of the Unified Fire 
Authority said the collectors did not appear to have malicious intent. 
KUTV reported that multiple agencies descended on the home, where it 
was determined that they would have to conduct a controlled explosion.


Of course, that's just EAST Utah. Right Chuck?




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Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber - Utopia

[Robert]

In a lot of the US fire stations aren't getting staffed because the 
firefighters are totally keeping the jobs staffed at levels that require 
massive overtime at 2x pay to spike their income for the purpose of 
maximizing retirement pay. And that's not a California specialty.   
Happening in NV and all across the other states.   And not just Fire 
Fighters, civil servants across the board.   Why many of the cities get 
into retirement dept that was unforcasted when the retirement levels 
were funded..


On 4/26/24 4:35 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
Fire stations here are failing.  They can't staff them.  Townships 
can't fund them so they're paying cities much higher rates per call.


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 7:01 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

Everything’s political now, of course.

But he does have a point when he says “Government-owned broadband
networks cost millions of dollars and divert essential funding
away from services that really matter to the public — services
such as police and fire, roads, water and sewer.”

In the past, the government has undertaken vast programs at
taxpayer expense like rural electrification, the interstate
highway system, the space program.  Now apparently high speed
Internet is the thing of the moment that takes precedence over all
the other broken things that we might wish government to fix. I
sometimes wonder why Internet?  Maybe because it seems easy and
gives people the power to hand out billions of dollars.  Could
they cure cancer or get lead out of drinking water or fix all the
deteriorating bridges with something like a BEAD program?

Maybe they think broadband and AI and neural implants will lead to
a future where everyone is plugged into the network and doesn’t
need any of those other things. Maybe we’ll all be heads in jars
like in Futurama.

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2024 5:38 PM
*To:* Josh Luthman ; AnimalFarm
Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com; John Brewer 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber -
Utopia

I am surprised they have never broke even.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Friday, April 26, 2024 4:02 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Cc:*John Brewer ; ch...@go-mtc.com

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber - Utopia

Article:

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2024/04/19/government-internet-service-bad-for-taxpayers/

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 4:59 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

By John Dougall

For the Deseret News

Most Utahns probably agree that government should stick to essential
government services and stay out of enterprises that are better
performed by
the private sector.

Yet, across the country and right here in Utah, more and more
governments
are building government-owned internet networks, despite numerous
private-sector providers being available.

The number of government-owned networks is increasing by the day, and
taxpayers, not users, are often footing the bill. Government-owned
broadband
networks cost millions of dollars and divert essential funding
away from
services that really matter to the public — services such as
police and
fire, roads, water and sewer.

Two unfortunate examples of government-owned broadband networks
right here
in Utah are iProvo and UTOPIA.

In 2004, Provo launched iProvo to provide broadband internet
services to
homes and business. Provo reportedly bonded for $36.5 million to
bring
service to every home in the city and wrote off $5.4 million that
the city’s
telecommunications fund owed the Energy Department’s reserve fund
to finance
the costly deployment. After struggling to make the network
viable, iProvo
was sold in 2008. But its buyer failed to fulfill the terms of the
sale, and
iProvo reverted back to the city. In 2013, in a desperate attempt
to free
itself of the failed venture, the city ultimately sold iProvo to
Google for
$1.

Similarly, UTOPIA (Utah Telecommunications Open Infrastructure
Agency) was
launched to provide broadband internet services to a consortium of
cities.
But UTOPIA has failed to fulfill its promises for more than two
decades now.
The project, which started in 2002, was projected to be finished
in three to
four years. Fast forward to today, and it is still incomplete. Not
only is
UTOPIA incomplete, but the project has racked up $300 million
worth of debt.
And despite iProvo’s example of failure, UTOPIA continues to expand.

For years, UTOPIA consistently lost money, expecting taxpayers to
cover
those losses. In addition to this, the government-owned network
continues to
expand and pull other cities into this trap. What’s more egregious
is that

Re: [AFMUG] DC power supplies in parallel

[Robert]

This is what Tesla is recommending for the LFP based model 3 and model Y 
versions.   100% charge.  VS the 80% for the other chemistries.   Tesla 
is also going more in on LFP solutions and the latest investor 
presentation said their proprietary model "breakthrough" battery is no 
longer an emphasis because third party batteries are getting cheaper 
than they can make.


On 4/26/24 1:06 PM, TJ Trout wrote:
Storing a fully charged lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery has a 
minimal impact on its lifespan. In fact, it's recommended to fully 
charge LiFePO4 batteries before storing them for long periods of time. 
These batteries have a low self-discharge rate, typically losing 2% of 
their charge per month. However, fully charged lithium-ion batteries 
can be dangerous if left unused for long periods of time.


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:43 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:




On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, 1:02 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

And I'm still using AGM batteries while all the cool kids are
using LiFePO4 with BCMs, so definitely don't listen to me.


The more I learn about lithium batteries, the more I feel that
lithium has relatively few advantages for standby applications.

My most recent knowledge acquisition is the fact that if you want
to shorten the life of a lithium battery the best way to do so is
to keep it fully charged.   The higher the average state of
charge,  the shorter the life of the battery, although admitted
there isn't much change in lifetime between about 20% and 80%.
 But keeping them at 100% isn't great.

If you want to store a lithium battery without charging,  it's
best to drop the charge below 80% then store.

In a standby application you really want to keep a battery at 100%
which shortens it's life greatly.  A better choice would be to
keep it at 80% max but then you have other issues, not to mention
the fact you now have to buy a bigger battery array.
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--
Thank you,

TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell

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Re: [AFMUG] ***SPAM*** Govt funded fiber - Utopia

[Robert]

Kinda makes you wonder what the actual return is on the MASSIVE $$ that 
the feds are dumping into broadband providers?   Anyone want to fill in 
actual numbers?


On 4/26/24 3:02 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
Article: 
https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2024/04/19/government-internet-service-bad-for-taxpayers/


On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 4:59 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


By John Dougall

For the Deseret News

Most Utahns probably agree that government should stick to essential
government services and stay out of enterprises that are better
performed by
the private sector.

Yet, across the country and right here in Utah, more and more
governments
are building government-owned internet networks, despite numerous
private-sector providers being available.

The number of government-owned networks is increasing by the day, and
taxpayers, not users, are often footing the bill. Government-owned
broadband
networks cost millions of dollars and divert essential funding
away from
services that really matter to the public — services such as
police and
fire, roads, water and sewer.

Two unfortunate examples of government-owned broadband networks
right here
in Utah are iProvo and UTOPIA.

In 2004, Provo launched iProvo to provide broadband internet
services to
homes and business. Provo reportedly bonded for $36.5 million to
bring
service to every home in the city and wrote off $5.4 million that
the city’s
telecommunications fund owed the Energy Department’s reserve fund
to finance
the costly deployment. After struggling to make the network
viable, iProvo
was sold in 2008. But its buyer failed to fulfill the terms of the
sale, and
iProvo reverted back to the city. In 2013, in a desperate attempt
to free
itself of the failed venture, the city ultimately sold iProvo to
Google for
$1.

Similarly, UTOPIA (Utah Telecommunications Open Infrastructure
Agency) was
launched to provide broadband internet services to a consortium of
cities.
But UTOPIA has failed to fulfill its promises for more than two
decades now.
The project, which started in 2002, was projected to be finished
in three to
four years. Fast forward to today, and it is still incomplete. Not
only is
UTOPIA incomplete, but the project has racked up $300 million
worth of debt.
And despite iProvo’s example of failure, UTOPIA continues to expand.

For years, UTOPIA consistently lost money, expecting taxpayers to
cover
those losses. In addition to this, the government-owned network
continues to
expand and pull other cities into this trap. What’s more egregious
is that
UTOPIA misrepresented its performance as it pitched cities on
buying into
the expansion fever. For example, UTOPIA once claimed the network
had “no
cost to taxpayers since 2009.” This statement was patently inaccurate.

As your watchdog, I help you to hold your government accountable.
My office
investigated this and other claims, then we wrote a letter
identifying these
inaccurate statements. We instructed UTOPIA to do the following:

•Discard or destroy marketing materials with misleading statements.

• Ensure future communications more accurately reflect the
dependence on
taxpayer support.

•Take steps to remedy the misrepresentations regarding the lack of
taxpayer
support to any individual or entity that received the inaccurate
information.

UTOPIA’s shortcomings do not stop there, however. Rather than
providing
internet access to the more than 40,000 homes and small businesses
that lack
internet access today, UTOPIA, like other government-owned
networks, builds
redundant networks that compete with existing private providers,
many who
are also regulated by the cities in which they operate.

Unfortunately, iProvo and UTOPIA are no different from other
government-owned fiber networks across the country, which fail
financially
about 90% of the time.

When taxpayer money is being diverted from critical services into pet
broadband projects, that money is not going where it is needed most.
Taxpayers expect government to maintain roads, provide safe
drinking water
and keep their communities safe. Money spent propping up broadband
services
costs taxpayers money, encumbered by decades of debt, and deprives
them of
important and sufficient government services they want and
deserve. Plus,
higher taxes burden families, many of whom are struggling today
just to
provide for themselves.

Government-owned broadband has done enough harm to taxpayers.
iProvo and
UTOPIA should be seen as an example for policymakers of what to
avoid.
Public officials across the country, and especially here in Utah,
should

Re: [AFMUG] now that's a big antenna

[Robert]

 Patrick Warburton



On 4/21/24 1:56 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

This? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205873/

On Sun, Apr 21, 2024 at 1:06 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


“The Dish”
Great factual comedy that blends Apollo 11 and antennas.
*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, April 21, 2024 10:24 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* [AFMUG] now that's a big antenna

https://spectrum.ieee.org/apollo-era-antenna-voyager-2


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Re: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

[Robert]

LifePowers have a BMS.   But most people power them with a LFP designed 
charger to get the power into them much faster than a regular power supply.


On 4/5/24 12:13 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
You will need a BMS unless the battery has one built in.  If it does, 
a regular telco rectifier will do the job.


-Original Message- From: Mark - Myakka Technologies via AF
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 10:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Subject: [AFMUG] LiFePO4 question again

I'm finding hard to pass up just getting a 100ah 48v LiFePO4 rackmount 
battery.  I have a new fiber system that will need a maximum of 3kw 
once it is maxed out over the years.  This seems like an easy and 
clean battery solution.


Question is how do I power the system from the AC side on a daily 
basis and keep the battery charged.  The normal rectifier way seems to 
be a bit lacking in LiFePO4 support.


I can get a EG4 Chargeverter 48V 100A Battery Charger that looks like 
it would do the job.  Not sure if this thing is designed to run 24/7 
at load or if it is designed for intermittent loads to just charge 
batteries.


Thoughts?

--

Thanks,
Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com





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Re: [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

[Robert]

i.e. you are raising your SEP field...

On 2/12/24 11:53 AM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


I’m not President or a Senator or Supreme Court Justice, so in 2038 I 
plan to be retired or dead.  It will be somebody else’s problem.


*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2024 1:02 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] OT 2038 Linux

"The latest time which can be represented like this is 03:14:07 UTC on 
January 19, 2038," said Zimmie. "Once the timer is incremented from 
this second, the value 'overflows' and goes from being a large 
positive number to being a large negative number. The next second this 
counter can represent is 20:45:52 UTC on December 13, 1901. This is 
called the Year 2038 Problem."



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Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[Robert]

The last sentence is a key...    Think out of the box how to help out 
with that and you have a really good incentive for your company over 
others besides straight cash...


On 1/29/24 8:55 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We do have a fully funded health plan.  We make them wait 6 months for 
eligibility.  Has not seemed to be an impediment to hiring.  Thanks 
everyone.  I think I will steer clear of published performance based 
bonuses but just give surprise bonuses now and then.  I could give a 
spiff based on the completion of certain machines but some of the 
teams have overlap and tracking that program could be difficult.  I 
will just crank up the pay a bit.  I am a bit below average for 
companies of my type but not for employers on average in my area.  We 
are about $19/hr company wide with some making as much as $24.  Still 
hard to run a family and pay a mortgage with that kind of pay.

Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench-blades.com
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Trey Scarborough
*Sent:* Monday, January 29, 2024 9:52 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

I have always found one of the best ways is to provide better 
benifits/perks. As others have said 401k match is a good one, but if 
that's not something most your employees would be interested in. Fully 
paid health insurance can be one, also send them to training or a 
tradeshow. Even welders like to go to a tradeshow and gawk at all the 
new equipment...


One of the best I found was catered lunches. We would have a day or 
two a week we would bring in food from a good restaurant or order some 
good steaks and grill them. It was also good as it got everyone together.


Another thing is give them a budget to go and buy whatever 
tools/equipment/etc that you can write off and let them keep it 
personally. Works great for labor workers and IT staff. The more 
mechanical inclined typically went out and buy nice tools and the 
others typically would get a laptop, or build a gaming rig.



On 1/28/24 12:16 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, 
adding grout machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to 
a specialized type of vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  
Almost no software involved.  Just a little in a motion control PCB 
in the grout machine to control the hydrostatic transmission. This is 
by far my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 years of 
running some kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and 
other related antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit 
more confident that these new “durable products” have more legs than 
the antennas that were radio specific.
But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product 
cycles for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I 
do give bonuses.  I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  
Only happened once about 30 years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And 
actually nobody was unpaid but I had to layoff everyone.  But I digress.
What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are 
going well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  
I could give substantial merit increases but that plays into my 
phobia of things getting tight again.  Maybe that is totally 
unfounded.  I know when things started going well for Henry Ford he 
doubled pay and things got even better for him.
I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), 
but how to distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same 
amount?  And how to relate that the size of the bonus is tied 
directly to how well the company is doing?  Or should I just give 
really nice raises this go around?  Or both?  I guess if things slow 
down we can always trim staff or let attrition do it for us.  I think 
you all can understand the reluctance to give raises as it is a one 
way street.  You really cannot cut pay.
I want employees to prosper and do better personally.  I wonder if my 
fears are justified.  I know some of you have worked for large 
companies at certain points in your life, how did they accomplish 
this.  I know some of you have really prospered with your WISP/ISP, 
curious how you approached the whole sharing the wealth thing.

Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench-blades.com
www.terabitnetworks.com



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Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[Robert]

People don't always know what is best for them.   But fully funding an 
IRA would be a way to funnel money to them without taxes that might be 
appreciated when they do their taxes..


On 1/28/24 6:09 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I would be a bit surprised if anyone that works on my shop floor would 
prefer that.  We only have 25 employees and they are mostly welders 
etc.  I wonder if any of them even have an IRA.

*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 7:53 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees
Fully fund IRAs?

On 1/28/24 5:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Thanks Ken,
No stock options.  I am slowly giving the company to a couple sons 
that are putting in the sweat equity.  Still not sure about 
production based bonuses.  Should everyone get the same amount?

*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 1:11 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

I worked for big companies in the 80’s and remember profit sharing 
and Christmas bonuses.  Then we had a period of startups with stock 
options as a huge part of compensation – the idea was you worked 80 
hour weeks for modest pay but if the company hit it big your options 
could be worth a lot.  I suspect some people hit the jackpot and a 
lot more got the shaft.


My sense is that employees today are mostly focused on the short 
term. They have bills to pay, they want to know what income they can 
count on, they probably don’t want to roll the dice on profit sharing 
or a bonus or stock options.  Also, Millennials and Gen XYZ I talk to 
seem to view employment as transactional, and they don’t necessarily 
identify with the company or the owners (thanks to companies like 
Amazon and owners like Bezos).


So while I don’t have any hard facts, my guess is you’re doing the 
right thing already.  If you’re inclined to tie compensation to 
company performance, I wouldn’t make it a large percentage, and I 
wouldn’t try to use it as an incentive for people to work insane 
hours or achieve impossible goals (like Elon Musk’s “extremely 
hardcore”).  And I’d make it fairly short term, like monthly or 
something, so employees aren’t making their families scrimp in hopes 
of a windfall at the end of the quarter or year.


If you do experience hard times, reduced hours might be a temporary 
solution at least for hourly employees. Realizing that with low 
unemployment, some of them might move elsewhere.


The good news is that any part of your business tied to fiber 
projects is likely to have at least 5 good years coming.


*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown 
via AF

*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 12:16 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] compensation for employees

My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, 
adding grout machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to 
a specialized type of vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  
Almost no software involved.  Just a little in a motion control PCB 
in the grout machine to control the hydrostatic transmission. This is 
by far my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 years of 
running some kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and 
other related antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit 
more confident that these new “durable products” have more legs than 
the antennas that were radio specific.


But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product 
cycles for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I 
do give bonuses.  I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  
Only happened once about 30 years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And 
actually nobody was unpaid but I had to layoff everyone.  But I digress.


What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are 
going well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  
I could give substantial merit increases but that plays into my 
phobia of things getting tight again.  Maybe that is totally 
unfounded.  I know when things started going well for Henry Ford he 
doubled pay and things got even better for him.


I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), 
but how to distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same 
amount?  And how to relate that the size of the bonus is tied 
directly to how well the company is doing?  Or should I just give 
really nice raises this go around?  Or both?  I guess if things slow 
down we can always trim staff or let attrition do it for us.  I think 
you all can understand the reluctance to give raises as it is a one 
way street.  You really cannot cut pay.


I want employees to prosper and do better personally.  I wonder if my 
fears are justified.  I know some of you have worked for large 
companies at certain points in your life, how did they accomplish 
this.  I know some of you have really

Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

[Robert]

Fully fund IRAs?

On 1/28/24 5:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Thanks Ken,
No stock options.  I am slowly giving the company to a couple sons 
that are putting in the sweat equity.  Still not sure about production 
based bonuses.  Should everyone get the same amount?

*From:* Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 1:11 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] compensation for employees

I worked for big companies in the 80’s and remember profit sharing and 
Christmas bonuses. Then we had a period of startups with stock options 
as a huge part of compensation – the idea was you worked 80 hour weeks 
for modest pay but if the company hit it big your options could be 
worth a lot.  I suspect some people hit the jackpot and a lot more got 
the shaft.


My sense is that employees today are mostly focused on the short 
term.  They have bills to pay, they want to know what income they can 
count on, they probably don’t want to roll the dice on profit sharing 
or a bonus or stock options.  Also, Millennials and Gen XYZ I talk to 
seem to view employment as transactional, and they don’t necessarily 
identify with the company or the owners (thanks to companies like 
Amazon and owners like Bezos).


So while I don’t have any hard facts, my guess is you’re doing the 
right thing already.  If you’re inclined to tie compensation to 
company performance, I wouldn’t make it a large percentage, and I 
wouldn’t try to use it as an incentive for people to work insane hours 
or achieve impossible goals (like Elon Musk’s “extremely hardcore”).  
And I’d make it fairly short term, like monthly or something, so 
employees aren’t making their families scrimp in hopes of a windfall 
at the end of the quarter or year.


If you do experience hard times, reduced hours might be a temporary 
solution at least for hourly employees.  Realizing that with low 
unemployment, some of them might move elsewhere.


The good news is that any part of your business tied to fiber projects 
is likely to have at least 5 good years coming.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Sunday, January 28, 2024 12:16 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] compensation for employees

My latest pivot a couple of years ago to microtrenching blades, adding 
grout machines, then microtrenching saw attachments and now to a 
specialized type of vacuum excavator has gone extremely well.  Almost 
no software involved. Just a little in a motion control PCB in the 
grout machine to control the hydrostatic transmission.  This is by far 
my most profitable season I have ever had in 50 years of running some 
kind of hustle.  And those years of the stinger and other related 
antennas and hardware were not bad at all.  I am a bit more confident 
that these new “durable products” have more legs than the antennas 
that were radio specific.


But having been through wax and wane of business, economy and product 
cycles for many decades, I am always reticent to ratchet up pay.  I do 
give bonuses. I will always live in fear of not meeting payroll.  Only 
happened once about 30 years ago, but that is a bad deal.  And 
actually nobody was unpaid but I had to layoff everyone.  But I digress.


What would y’all suggest as a way to reward employees when things are 
going well?  I give COLA plus modest merit increases every 6 months.  
I could give substantial merit increases but that plays into my phobia 
of things getting tight again.  Maybe that is totally unfounded.  I 
know when things started going well for Henry Ford he doubled pay and 
things got even better for him.


I would like to do bonuses based on my bottom line income (I think), 
but how to distribute that evenly?  Should everyone get the same 
amount? And how to relate that the size of the bonus is tied directly 
to how well the company is doing? Or should I just give really nice 
raises this go around?  Or both?  I guess if things slow down we can 
always trim staff or let attrition do it for us.  I think you all can 
understand the reluctance to give raises as it is a one way street.  
You really cannot cut pay.


I want employees to prosper and do better personally. I wonder if my 
fears are justified.  I know some of you have worked for large 
companies at certain points in your life, how did they accomplish 
this.  I know some of you have really prospered with your WISP/ISP, 
curious how you approached the whole sharing the wealth thing.


Chuck McCown
McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503
435-830-4306 cell
www.mccowntech.com 
www.microtrench-blades.com 
www.terabitnetworks.com 


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Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

[Robert]

That is what I've always done and got told I'm wrong   LOL

On 1/9/24 7:17 AM, Brough Turner - netBlazr wrote:
"Ring, Ridge, Red, Right" was the equivalence in the days when 
Telephone Operator Cord Boards had tip/ring/sleeve connectors on the 
cords.  So Ridge = Red.


Thanks
Brough

*From:* AF  on behalf of Robert 


*Sent:* Monday, January 8, 2024 10:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse
But what about Low voltage cable... Is smooth hot or cold or ridged hot
or cold?  So many choices... LOL..

On 1/8/24 9:39 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
> I concur with the wire color problem.
>
> * My current employer pays big bucks to a low voltage guy who wires 
up our

> sites.  His work is absolutely beautiful.  It's like friggin artwork.
> He uses black for return (+) and green for ground. Then since most 
of our
> equipment has dual power supplies he uses red and blue for the "A" 
hot and
> "B" hot.  I assume his employer trained him that way for a reason 
and that's

> probably common.
>
> * I was taught in childhood that red is positive, so that's what I have
> always done.  I'm not philosophically opposed to the idea that red 
is "hot",

> but that's just now how I learned it.
>
> * 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fztlabels.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2Fdc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes&data=05%7C02%7Cbrough%40netblazr.com%7C6c42b49a25dd404e07d908dc1099eb1a%7C06a97f73bf7b45a688f6a3a7bc5f56c7%7C0%7C0%7C638403500474986051%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NwfihmgJY1P%2FJX8FZ9QQK%2Fbx95TQIV3AqoM5Wowvai0%3D&reserved=0 
<https://ztlabels.com/blogs/news/dc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes>

> This site advises that for 2-wire DC with positive ground is white for
> positive and black for negative.  Someone apparently thinks that's 
the right
> way.  The same site points out that the only color called out 
specifically
> in the NEC is green or green/yellow for ground. Everything else is 
just the

> convention people landed on.
>
> Out in the wild you might see anything so there is and will always be a
> multi-meter in my everyday toolkit.
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2024 12:01 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse
>
> What I can never decide on is wire colors. Especially when using 
red/black

> zipcord or tray cable.  People expect red to be +, but they also expect
> black to be ground (except electricians who expect black to be hot 
and white

> to be neutral and green or green/yellow to be ground).  And how to
> differentiate battery wiring from load wiring.  I have not found an 
ideal

> solution other than labels.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 10:45 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse
>
> Yes. -48VDC means the negative side is hot, and the positive side is 
ground

> (or return).
>
> You can mix +48VDC and -48VDC if you know what you're doing. It helps a
> bunch if the equipment floats logic ground. You need to check to see 
if your

> equipment isolates logic from the supply voltage.
>
> Yes. Batteries can be grounded either way. They don't care.
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 1/8/2024 8:25 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
>> I know we have been though this many times and I thought I 
understood it.

>>
>> -48VDC is the Negative side being HOT, correct?
>>
>> It is BAD to try to mix -48VDC and 48VDC
>>
>> There is no such thing as a -48V battery.  A battery is a battery,
> correct?
>> How about the ICT Platinum power supplies.  They show as 48VDC, can
>> they
> be used on -48VDC equipment?
>> I remember Check saying something about a way to test to see if a
>> piece of
> equipment that is Neg 48VDC is truly grounded as Neg 48VDC.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>>    Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>
>>
>> Myakka Communications
>> 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myakka.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cbrough%40netblazr.com%7C6c42b49a25dd404e07d908dc1099eb1a%7C06a97f73bf7b45a688f6a3a7bc5f56c7%7C0%7C0%7C638403500474986051%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FlUnCHHmZ9Qohes%2BwvKB9GMSitPQuiBOFVDDBFJOdNw%3D&reserved=0 

Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

[Robert]

But what about Low voltage cable...  Is smooth hot or cold or ridged hot 
or cold?  So many choices... LOL..


On 1/8/24 9:39 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

I concur with the wire color problem.

* My current employer pays big bucks to a low voltage guy who wires up our
sites.  His work is absolutely beautiful.  It's like friggin artwork.
He uses black for return (+) and green for ground.  Then since most of our
equipment has dual power supplies he uses red and blue for the "A" hot and
"B" hot.  I assume his employer trained him that way for a reason and that's
probably common.

* I was taught in childhood that red is positive, so that's what I have
always done.  I'm not philosophically opposed to the idea that red is "hot",
but that's just now how I learned it.

* https://ztlabels.com/blogs/news/dc-power-circuit-wiring-color-codes
This site advises that for 2-wire DC with positive ground is white for
positive and black for negative.  Someone apparently thinks that's the right
way.  The same site points out that the only color called out specifically
in the NEC is green or green/yellow for ground.  Everything else is just the
convention people landed on.

Out in the wild you might see anything so there is and will always be a
multi-meter in my everyday toolkit.

-Adam



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2024 12:01 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

What I can never decide on is wire colors.  Especially when using red/black
zipcord or tray cable.  People expect red to be +, but they also expect
black to be ground (except electricians who expect black to be hot and white
to be neutral and green or green/yellow to be ground).  And how to
differentiate battery wiring from load wiring.  I have not found an ideal
solution other than labels.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, January 8, 2024 10:45 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48V kicking the dead horse

Yes. -48VDC means the negative side is hot, and the positive side is ground
(or return).

You can mix +48VDC and -48VDC if you know what you're doing. It helps a
bunch if the equipment floats logic ground. You need to check to see if your
equipment isolates logic from the supply voltage.

Yes. Batteries can be grounded either way. They don't care.

bp


On 1/8/2024 8:25 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

I know we have been though this many times and I thought I understood it.

-48VDC is the Negative side being HOT, correct?

It is BAD to try to mix -48VDC and 48VDC

There is no such thing as a -48V battery.  A battery is a battery,

correct?

How about the ICT Platinum power supplies.  They show as 48VDC, can
they

be used on -48VDC equipment?

I remember Check saying something about a way to test to see if a
piece of

equipment that is Neg 48VDC is truly grounded as Neg 48VDC.


--

Thanks,
   Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com



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Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

That is my understanding too.  But one point I would make is that the 
discharge from the BMS is pretty low compared to the size of the 
batteries we are talking about.   I was told by a techy at signature 
solar that for a rack mount battery to go into storage, it should be 
charged between 1/2 and 2/3 full and it would be good for 2 years 
without discharging too much.  That is with the switches in the off 
position, which does shut down most of the BMS functions but is not a 
disabled bms.


On 1/5/24 3:13 PM, Peter Kranz via AF wrote:


If you want to do lifepo4 right, here are the key points (In my opinion).

 1. After a discharge, a boost charge at a voltage of around
3.5-3.65V/cell should be applied to recharge the battery, until
you reach termination charge current.

 2. After boost charge is complete, you may want to hold voltage for a
period of time to allow the BMS to top balance the cells. Your BMS
will likely be programmed to top balance above 3.4V/cell. I like
to hold the pack voltage at just above 3.4V/cell for as long as it
takes for this top balance to complete.

 3. After the top balance is complete you should switch to a float
charge of 3.375V/cell for maximum lifespan. Holding voltage higher
in float can lead to pack swelling and lower lifespan.

 4. Batteries should not be charged in any way at or below freezing
temperatures, discharging is ok.

 5. Batteries not being used (spares) should have the BMS disabled to
avoid BMS induced self discharging.

Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com 
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-
pkr...@unwiredltd.com 


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Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

Oh, and most BMS in LFP batteries report state of charge numbers that 
are calibrated via full charge/discharge cycles not by absolute voltage 
measurements. So you get different batteries reporting different states 
of charge unless they are all top and bottom balanced together...


Signature solar has had tons of customer support issues because of this 
and what customers see on the different panels making them think their 
batteries are much less charged than they are.   The standard response 
is fully discharge them all then fully charge them.  This can be an 
issue in production.    With Solar assistant you can look into the 
values for each cell in each battery to know what's going on with your 
server rack batteries.


On 1/4/24 3:49 PM, Robert wrote:
But LFP batteries all have BMS control with built in LVD.   Most LFP 
batteries BMS will need a "kick-start" if they go into LVD.   The 
charger I shared earlier has a LVD kick mode for the first charging mode.


On 1/4/24 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
The worst case scenario is when the power comes back on after an 
extended outage.  So the batts are going to present a heavy load plus 
all your other loads.
I always doubled what I needed to run the loads by themselves and 
made sure the current limiting would not exceed safe charging currents.
If the batts went too low, the voltage may not come back to 
operational level until they have charged a bit. If you have a LVD on 
the loads that will speed things up, assuming the LVD will reconnect, 
but it must have enough hysteresis because when the loads attach the 
voltage will drop again and if you don’t have enough hysteresis it 
will oscillate and probably do ungood things to the loads.

That is why I quit using LVDs.
*From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 2:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Let me see if I understand this. I get an AC/DC 48V power supply.  We 
have used DuraComm in the past.  I wire the power supply directly to 
the LFP battery pack and wire the power supply directly to the 48V 
equipment.  Does the LFP have logic in it to regulate the charging?


My guess is my power supply has to be rated higher than my equipment 
demand by a few AMPs so it can charge batteries and run equipment.  
Is there some way to limit charging AMPs on battery pack so it 
doesn't over load the power supply?


--

Best regards,

Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com <https://www.Myakka.com>

--

Thursday, January 4, 2024, 3:57:48 PM, you wrote:

I was talking about connecting the LFP pack straight to a current
limiting power supply and not using a battery charger.
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 2:43 PM  wrote:

“the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current”

You don’t have to worry about that one.  The charger won’t
draw more current than what is being consumed to charge the
batteries.  I’d argue you should oversize the max current. 
If the power supply can’t supply the current the chargers are
demanding then it’ll do whatever it’s over current fault
condition is….which might be current limiting, or shutting
down and waiting for you to power cycle.  Oversize it so you
can supply the charger whatever it wants and you aren’t at
risk of over heating, tripping, or other badness.

PSU’s often get de-rated for temperature, and sometimes the
max current on the sticker is only for transient peak current
rather than continuous current.  Make it bigger so it meets
all the demand on it and nothing bad happens even in
sub-optimal conditions.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *castarritt
*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2024 11:28 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC
supplies with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other
charger.  As long as I am using a power supply that will sag
voltage instead of trip offline when max current is reached,
the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The
LFP pack's BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy
multi stage charge profiles with boost voltage on lithium
packs.  Am I missing something here?  So far, bossman has
preferred just playing it safe and paying for the ICT shelves
we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt
 wrote:

We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP
Sup

Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

Some chargers will behave...

On 1/4/24 3:34 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

Chargers aren't designed to have a linear load (wisp) and will misbehave

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024, 3:12 PM Robert  wrote:

I will look when I get back in the office, but it was similar to
this one:


https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/lithium-battery-chargers-24v-10a-lifepo4-lfp-intelligent

I spent a bunch on the signature solar chargers but they are way
to finicky about deciding to turn on...

On 1/4/24 12:05 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:


Robert,

Very interesting.  The Solar Assistant looks promising.  The rack
batteries from Solar Rack are some I've been looking at. I'm in
FL so low tempetures should not be an issue.  The missing piece
is the charger. What are you using to keep these charged up.


--

Best regards,

 Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com <mailto:m...@mailmt.com>


Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com <https://www.Myakka.com>


--


Thursday, January 4, 2024, 12:07:43 PM, you wrote:


That's the advantage of LFP.   With the addition of one
component, solar assistant ( https://solar-assistant.io/ ) on
the signature solar rack batteries, you can know exactly
where the BMS is for each battery and you know your status
worldwide.
      There is a little learning curve to set the dip
switches and get the right components to connect the
monitoring cables up to the solar assistant.   But there
isn't a need to set up a whole lead acid style charger to
condition the batteries.
  Set points on your charger are the only thing you need
or go with an LFP charger like the one from Signature solar
that just works.
  Note that I have failed so far to get 12 volt LFP
batteries with heaters in series to make 24volts to play
correctly together.  The heaters confuse the smarter chargers
and you end up with the batteries out of balance.
  With Lithium batteries and massive charging, like a big
rack of 400 AH 12 volters, you need to connect the positive
to the buss bar at one end of the stack and the negative to
the other buss bar and the other end of the rack to get the
batteries in the most even state of charge.

On 1/4/24 8:27 AM, castarritt wrote:

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell
AC/DC supplies with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or
other charger.  As long as I am using a power supply that
will sag voltage instead of trip offline when max current is
reached, the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated
charge current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more. 
The LFP pack's BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using
fancy multi stage charge profiles with boost voltage on
lithium packs.  Am I missing something here?  So far,
bossman has preferred just playing it safe and paying for
the ICT shelves we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt
 wrote:

We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP
Supplies and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without
any problems.  The only downside is that the ICT shelf
can't read the state of charge or give your an estimated
runtime remaining with lithium batteries.  I understand
they won't have a super accurate reading on those
parameters without communicating with the BMS, but I
wish they could at least calculate AH in and out vs set
AH capacity to give a rough estimate.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini
 wrote:

We are having great success with signature solar
units and ICT rectifiers.




<https://aeronetpr.com>   *Gino Villarini*
Founder / President
@GVillarini
787.273.4143 |
<https://www.inc.com/profile/aeronet>
<https://www.facebook.com/aeronetpr>
<https://www.instagram.com/aeronetpr/>
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<https://store.homefi.pr/>

*From: *AF  on behalf of
Mark - Myakka Technologies 
 

Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert]

But LFP batteries all have BMS control with built in LVD.   Most LFP 
batteries BMS will need a "kick-start" if they go into LVD.   The 
charger I shared earlier has a LVD kick mode for the first charging mode.


On 1/4/24 1:33 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
The worst case scenario is when the power comes back on after an 
extended outage.  So the batts are going to present a heavy load plus 
all your other loads.
I always doubled what I needed to run the loads by themselves and made 
sure the current limiting would not exceed safe charging currents.
If the batts went too low, the voltage may not come back to 
operational level until they have charged a bit.  If you have a LVD on 
the loads that will speed things up, assuming the LVD will reconnect, 
but it must have enough hysteresis because when the loads attach the 
voltage will drop again and if you don’t have enough hysteresis it 
will oscillate and probably do ungood things to the loads.

That is why I quit using LVDs.
*From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 2:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Let me see if I understand this. I get an AC/DC 48V power supply.  We 
have used DuraComm in the past.  I wire the power supply directly to 
the LFP battery pack and wire the power supply directly to the 48V 
equipment.  Does the LFP have logic in it to regulate the charging?


My guess is my power supply has to be rated higher than my equipment 
demand by a few AMPs so it can charge batteries and run equipment.  Is 
there some way to limit charging AMPs on battery pack so it doesn't 
over load the power supply?


--

Best regards,

Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications

www.Myakka.com 

--

Thursday, January 4, 2024, 3:57:48 PM, you wrote:

I was talking about connecting the LFP pack straight to a current
limiting power supply and not using a battery charger.
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 2:43 PM  wrote:

“the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current”

You don’t have to worry about that one.  The charger won’t
draw more current than what is being consumed to charge the
batteries.  I’d argue you should oversize the max current.  If
the power supply can’t supply the current the chargers are
demanding then it’ll do whatever it’s over current fault
condition is….which might be current limiting, or shutting
down and waiting for you to power cycle.  Oversize it so you
can supply the charger whatever it wants and you aren’t at
risk of over heating, tripping, or other badness.

PSU’s often get de-rated for temperature, and sometimes the
max current on the sticker is only for transient peak current
rather than continuous current.  Make it bigger so it meets
all the demand on it and nothing bad happens even in
sub-optimal conditions.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *castarritt
*Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2024 11:28 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC
supplies with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other
charger.  As long as I am using a power supply that will sag
voltage instead of trip offline when max current is reached,
the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge
current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the appropriate
value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The LFP pack's
BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy multi stage
charge profiles with boost voltage on lithium packs.  Am I
missing something here?  So far, bossman has preferred just
playing it safe and paying for the ICT shelves we know work,
so I haven't got to try it yet.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt
 wrote:

We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP
Supplies and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without any
problems.  The only downside is that the ICT shelf can't
read the state of charge or give your an estimated runtime
remaining with lithium batteries.  I understand they won't
have a super accurate reading on those parameters without
communicating with the BMS, but I wish they could at least
calculate AH in and out vs set AH capacity to give a rough
estimate.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini
 wrote:

We are having great success with signature solar units
and ICT rectifiers.





*Gino Villarini*
Founder / President
@GVi

Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

[Robert Andrews]

Not all lithium is the same...  Tesla has careful temperature controls 
to manage their packs.  And are subject to thermal runaway.  LFP 
batteries ( I can't say completely ) are not so subject to thermal 
runaway.  Running them inside a house is much safer than any other 
Lithium chemistry.


 I have a 24v 400 AH pack running power for my server rack, which all 
run with 24v power supplies.   Inside my office.  Not worried much about 
it as long as nobody shorts it out behind the fuses.


Other chemistries are what make all the news, such as those in electric 
bikes, scooters, hoverboards, specially when someone leaves them on a 
charger in a garage when the temperatures get out of control and the BMS 
doesn't have any temperature controls on charging.


When you look at LFP batteries, unless the environment is well under 
control, you need to make sure that the battery has both high and LOW 
temperature protection.  Your shelter gets below 32 degrees because the 
power went off, the batteries go below freezing and the power comes back 
on without the shelter warming up and the charger goes on.   Your 
batteries will be toast...



On 1/4/24 09:12, Ken Hohhof wrote:

I know lead acid batteries have their safety issues, what about lithium?

With the Tesla Megapacks, I think fire departments just let them burn 
themselves out and flood adjacent ones with water to keep the fire from 
spreading.  Are there any building code restrictions against putting 
them in office buildings or data centers?  In general I would assume a 
stationary battery is less likely to catch fire compared to a Tesla car 
which can hit other objects while going 100 mph.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 11:04 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

Just the joy of handling lighter batts make lithium well worth it.  Not 
to mention all the other positive attributes.


*From:*castarritt

*Sent:*Thursday, January 4, 2024 9:27 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC supplies 
with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other charger.  As long as I am 
using a power supply that will sag voltage instead of trip offline when 
max current is reached, the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's 
rated charge current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the 
appropriate value, I don't see why I need anything more.  The LFP pack's 
BMS already has LVD, and we aren't using fancy multi stage charge 
profiles with boost voltage on lithium packs.  Am I missing something 
here?  So far, bossman has preferred just playing it safe and paying for 
the ICT shelves we know work, so I haven't got to try it yet.


On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt > wrote:


We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP Supplies
and Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without any problems.  The
only downside is that the ICT shelf can't read the state of charge
or give your an estimated runtime remaining with lithium batteries. 
I understand they won't have a super accurate reading on those

parameters without communicating with the BMS, but I wish they could
at least calculate AH in and out vs set AH capacity to give a rough
estimate.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>> wrote:

We are having great success with signature solar units and ICT
rectifiers.





*Gino Villarini*
Founder / President
@GVillarini
787.273.4143 |



























Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968

AeroNet-dula-network-access.jpg 

*From: *AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of Mark - Myakka
Technologies mailto:m...@mailmt.com>>
*Date: *Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM
*To: *AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant

I'm starting to get flashbacks for the last time I did this.  It
wasn't a pleasant experience.  Felt I was oversold un-needed
over priced options.  Trying to be more careful this time.

Looking at the LifePO4 stuff and finding a bunch of rack mount
batteries, but they all seem to be China made.  Can anyone
recommend a bran

Re: [AFMUG] RedHawk-P250i-Solid-Oxide-Fuel-Cells-GEN4-WEB.pdf

[Robert]

Cha-ching...   Wonder what price the 3Khr stack replacement is...?

On 12/11/23 8:23 AM, Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi] wrote:


Any ideas on pricing?

Jim Bouse

Owner

Brazos WiFi

979-999-7000

j...@brazoswifi.com 

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 10:17 AM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] RedHawk-P250i-Solid-Oxide-Fuel-Cells-GEN4-WEB.pdf


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Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

[Robert]

There are modbus libraries in at least "C" to read devices...  I read 
the modbus info from our morningstar controllers...


On 10/26/23 1:08 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

Yes, and no.

The modbus protocol defines how to move data between two devices.  
However, the contents of the data being passed is vendor-defined and 
there aren't any industry standards I'm aware of (although it wouldn't 
surprise me if there were).


Every vendor that produces a modbus-capable device usually publishes 
some sort of guide to the modbus registers for each device.   For 
instance, a quick google search turned up this document:


https://www.vertiv.com/4ac5f2/globalassets/products/monitoring-control-and-management/monitoring/modbus-protocol-for-bdsu-reference-guide.pdf

"modbus register map" or "modbus communication guide" or simply 
"modbus" when added to your vendor or product name often will turn up 
the right document.


Just FYI, A couple of years ago, I would have suggested you provide me 
with the vendor of the equipment, and I'd make you a firmware load for 
the sitemonitor serial module to be able to read this, but that 
codebase needs to be re-written to support the base 3.   At some point 
in the future I'm going to resume doing those requests in which case 
you'd end up with a module which pulls data from this device.  
 Doesn't help you right now though.






On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:25 AM  wrote:

Is it likely that AC meters for monitoring circuits or subpanels
have a standard message format?


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 10:52 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Modbus

Modbus is an ancient serial protocol to pass values back and
forth.   It’s very open but also somewhat vendor specific.  You
can send any message you like from A <->B but the two devices have
to know what the specific message means.  Various industries have
defined the message content but I would be somewhat surprised if a
Vertiv rectifier knows what to do with the information from a meter.

Tons of information online, and it’s not a hard protocol to code
for.   Used to do it in BASIC years ago.     There are two
protocols - MODBUS and MODBUS RTU.   The RTU protocol is much more
difficult to work with due to timing requirements, MODBUS itself
is just standard serial at a baud rate and timing of responses is
not critical at all.

Mark




> On Oct 26, 2023, at 7:38 AM, Adam Moffett 
wrote:
>
> I've never used modbus.  I'm looking at AC usage meters that
support modbus over RS-485.   And the controller on my Vertiv
rectifier says this in the manual:
>
> "e) Modbus Protocol:  The NCU can communicate with an AC Meter
using the Modbus protocol."
>
> and that's literally all it says.  Is this something
standardized where I can expect any modbus capable AC meter to
work the same?  Is this plug and play or would I have to learn yet
another discipline?
>
> If it's not an easy answer I can take it to Vertiv tech
support.  Just wondering if this group magically has the answer.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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- Forrest

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Re: [AFMUG] Got paid

[Robert Andrews]

Did you pull the comments and review?

On 10/24/23 11:53, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
A prime contractor has owed me about $15K for 6 months.  Totally dogging 
me.
They showed up in my FB feed crowing about a big job they had just 
completed.  So I started making snarky comments on their posts.  I also 
gave them a bad review and commented that they don’t pay their subs. The 
owner of the company called me and settled about 15 minutes after 
posting the review.

A whole lot cheaper than attorneys.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

[Robert]

For off-grid or grid tied, the new eg4 18K and 13Kw battery ( heated ) 
for 10K is probably the first of what I consider is 4th generation solar 
systems.  First system that is truly integrated, turn key solar.  No 
piece of this, piece of that, this special settings, that special 
firmware.   Connect around 6 wires, 9 if on-grid, and off to the races 
you go!


On 10/4/23 5:44 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


Thanks for the tip!

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *TJ Trout
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 04, 2023 4:55 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT: Home solar

check signature solar, $0.25/w with free shipping I believe, also the 
inverters and batteries are a fraction of the cost you mentioned


On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 1:22 AM  wrote:

I’m contemplating solar at home.

I’m seeing $0.60/watt here if you’re buying qty 10 of 550W
panels.  Is that a good price these days?

https://sungoldpower.com/collections/monocrystalline-solar-panel

I haven’t looked at panels in some years, but that sounds almost
/too/ low.  Are they going to murder me with the shipping cost?

Same site sells a 6000W MPPT inverter/charger with optional
battery connection for $1600.  And a wall mounted 5.1 KWh LifePo4
battery for about $1700.

Seems like I could get 10x 550W panels, the inverter, and a
battery for a little under $6600 before shipping. NY has suspended
sales tax on solar power so no sales tax.  I have not added up
wire, mounting hardware, or other ancillary things, but the big
ticket items look pretty dang reasonable.  It should produce about
$1000/year worth of electricity (based on a website telling me
3.79 average peak sun hours per day in NY).  That seems worth it
even with no incentives, but there’s also a federal tax credit and
some state level incentives too.

…and NY is ranked 47^th out of the 50 states for solar
production.  So it’s better for most of you.

Have we crossed a threshold where it’s become stupid NOT to do solar?

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--

Thank you,

TJ Trout

Volt Broadband

209.480.3122 Cell


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Re: [AFMUG] who caves first? charter? disney?

[Robert]

Seems like it will be a reason to increase basic internet rates... a lot...

On 9/6/23 7:49 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:
Talking heads are making it out to be a big deal.  They'll both lose a 
lot of money.  Charter may not survive

pay tv may not survive
my take?  per 1,000 facebook posts here last Saturday as SEC football 
kicked off, they're all dropping whatever
charter they had left and going to youtube tv.  meaning it's all being 
dumped on our networks (ok, no worries).
disney isn't going to lose that revenue, now it's just coming in from 
a different pay-tv provider.
so i see charter being the big loser. Those SEC football fans are 
going to find a way to get the feed.

Seems youtube tv is now getting their money - - - if they weren't before.

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Re: [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some questions

[Robert]

Lead acid is still the go to for combustion vehicles and low 
temperatures without grid to heat.  That might change but for now they 
is still plenty of market.   That said, when the vendors for LFP decide 
to change the BMSs to do what is needed and the lower temp chemistries 
are worked out, yes, lead acid will go away.   If lithium Titanate 
becomes economical that will destroy lead acid...


On 9/5/23 7:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have had little lithium experience to date but I think the answer to 
all of your questions is YES.
The solar guys have been quoting deals like this: 305ah 3.2 Grade B 
cell ($89) x 32 = $2,848 for 31kwh, 610ah, 51.2v 16s2p configuration 
for a 48v system
That is 9 cents per watt hour.  Half the cost of lead acid, will do 
many more cycles.  Much lighter.  Much smaller.  I think that you 
should sell your stock in the lead acid battery factories.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Brough Turner - netBlazr
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 5, 2023 5:38 AM
*To:* Chuck McCown via AF
*Cc:* Brough Turner
*Subject:* [AFMUG] 120v UPS with Li-ion or LiPoFe batteries - some 
questions
I understand LiPoFe is preferable to Li-ion (longer life, less chance 
of fire).  Is this correct?


Can the BMS compensate for a for lead-acid UPS's charging profile?
Is there a battery with a BMS that can be monitored via a network 
connection.

Any recommendations for where to buy batteries in pallet-level quantities?

Thanks,
Brough


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Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I keep a lookout for dead freezers on facebook and other local sales 
channels...


On 8/17/23 18:20, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the batteries were in a tight, very well insulated container, keeping 
them warm will take very little energy.  Think of a giant dewar box. 
Once they are at temp they should hold it.  And discharge as well as 
charge will cause them to heat.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:25 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big 
problem, but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up 
enough to charge could take a lot of power.
All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge 
temperature at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 
0C to charge. The discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it 
won't work or will wreck the batteries sort of thing, as far as I can 
tell, but the charging temperature is.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews  
wrote:


For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...

On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
 > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when
charge
 > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The
LiTime
 > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery
BMS.
 > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries
more than
 > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the
temperature
 > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run
 > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full
 > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are
a lot
 > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery
count (and
 > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the
 > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries
 > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or
closer to
 > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off
the power
 > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course
 > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current
 > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun
can get
 > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging
 > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
 >
 > Thank you,
 >
 > Brian Webster
 >
 > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew
Howard
 > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
 > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
 >
 > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to
lithiums.
 > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's
 > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the
minimum
 > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going
to be
 > below for a good part of the year.
 >
 > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost"
the same
 > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less
than half
 > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long.
There
 > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need
help for
 > extremely cold environments.
 >
 > bp
 >
 > 
 >
 > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
 > <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
 >
 > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
 > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
 >
 > *From:* AF 
 > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
 > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
 > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
 > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
 > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is 
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to 
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST 
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not 
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a 
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...


On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge 
so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime 
batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. 
Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than 
justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature 
does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run 
time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full 
capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot 
lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and 
overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries 
that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to 
the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power 
from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course 
stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current 
through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get 
your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging 
profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.


Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. 
I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's 
going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum 
charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be 
below for a good part of the year.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince > wrote:


Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
extremely cold environments.

bp



On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
 wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium.

*From:* AF 
 *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
  

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I just wish Will Prowse would start doing heater reviews on LFP 
batteries, but he's in Vegas and that's the last thing on his mind.  But 
it's critical for everyone north of Lat 36


On 8/17/23 13:07, TJ Trout wrote:
Don't buy 12v lifepo4 batteries for series use, it's much better to buy 
a 24v or 48v battery as it will have one BMS and keep balanced.


https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/ 



Some of the main players are signature solar, trophy battery, and a 
bunch of others look at Will prowse solar on YouTube and you can see 
reviews of all of the different 48 volt batteries.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard > wrote:


LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though.
You can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k
 which I
think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827
 which is made to be a drop
in replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about? 

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium. 

__ __

__ __

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

__ __

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

__ __

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.



Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice
away. 



A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you. 

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
for you then it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that
direction.



-Adam







*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that
having extra battery capacity is more helpful than
oversizing the solar panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's
numbers for batteries if I was putting something together
now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400
watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an
issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole). 



A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160,
so 6 of those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under
$1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just adjusting battery and
panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in line
with Chuck's estimate, aside from the

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

We love Morningstar 60mppt for lower end solar, ethernet ( no security ) 
complete configuration available and priced lower than most other stuff 
for a serious amount of solar.   For bigger the 600Volt is available, 
for bigger than that the signature solar controllers will do about 
anything you want, even with lithium.   They just released an _outdoor_ 
14.5KW (heated!) battery for 4K.  With that you can build a site that 
will handle about anything..  Licensed links, heated shelters.. etc...


On 8/16/23 6:58 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny 
load does make the costs easier. But if you wanted a second AP, bigger 
backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole 
power system proportionally.


Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out 
of garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 
100-150W for an AP. You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul 
under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy 
that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.


A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 
2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to 
handle any load you might have is expensive, and building for only low 
power handcuffs you.


You do your thing your way, no judgement. If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.


-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having 
extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar 
panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was 
putting something together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, 
so figure 400 watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be 
an issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole).


A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of 
those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 
(which is mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I 
started at $1k), I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from 
the battery costs.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY
State I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did
a site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think
the actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and
~4kwh of battery. It had some issues in January a couple years,
but I attributed that more to using cheap flooded deep cycles,
rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten through
the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had
for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to
$1500 when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is
replacing parts that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller
enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the
following that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah
latitude on top of Utah mountains.

*From:*Mathew Howard

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single
AP and backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around
$1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to
electric that’ll be cheaper than solar.  The problem is
the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around the
December-January months. I’m in NY State, and at our
latitude we only get a few hours of average production per
day during those mon

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

Surprisingly, not a lot.  10-15% which in line with their summer 
production.  Winter with snow, people were reporting production 20-25% 
higher and much higher when the panels are covered with snow behind and 
sunlight there were videos of 20% production when regular panels were 
zero.   This was at sites with both panels types side by side...


On 8/16/23 4:35 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I presume they are more expensive?  Is the watts per square foot the 
same?


-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 3:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...

On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. 
They were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant 
power from the sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels 
upside down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain 
top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has 
never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude 
on top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal 
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and 
backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that 
will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

    I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric 
that’ll

    be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
    have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY 
State,

    and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
    per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
    week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
    power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
    and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
    be allowed to put on a utility pole. 

    

    Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.

    

    NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an 
exception

    and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
    conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
    outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
    want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
    size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
    need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
    it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper 
than a

    100A service entrance cable.

    

    My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation 
since

    then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
    for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000. Even if it’s
    3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
    installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
    knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
    and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or 
when

    the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
    for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”. Those are all
    fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.


    

    -Adam

    

    

    *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

    

    we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
    own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
    decommissioned the elevator and ther

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

We are at 39 _but_ the snowfall this winter was epic.   Rivaling 
Chucks...  We aren't on tippytops but with high panel angles and decent 
breaks in the coverage we only had to clear panels out a few times with 
the tracked ranger...  Still got stuck a few times requiring one rescue 
aid   We did have to clear out the area beneath the panels like five 
times.. but shaping the gap encouraged scouring that minimized visits. 
only one site out of 6 required generator service for one day.  Way 
better than 16 when we ran gennies at 3 sites for 1.5 months on and off..




On 8/16/23 3:30 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N


What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the 
actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of 
battery. It had some issues in January a couple years, but I 
attributed that more to using cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than 
not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten through the last couple of 
winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for around $800, last 
I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add in 
enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are 
needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, 
power supply), so that offsets it a bit.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following
that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah
latitude on top of Utah mountains.

*From:*Mathew Howard

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP
and backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around $1000
that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric
that’ll be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run
24/7.  You have to design around the December-January months. 
I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get a few hours
of average production per day during those months.  And
obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest
load it takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay
up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put
on a utility pole.

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can
get.  Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load
is very low.

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an
exception and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service
rated panel, a conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then
you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside
your enclosure. You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let
you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
(if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and
that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d
ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A service
entrance cable.

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation
since then, but I went to the same contractor who does
electric installs for the cable company and they quoted me
about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m
just saying I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.  
People do it when they’re off grid, or when the electric
service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to
work out.

-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave U

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from 
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last 
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...   
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...


On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. 
They were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant power 
from the sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels 
upside down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain 
top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has 
never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude 
on top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop 
can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). 
I can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

    I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
    be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
    have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
    and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
    per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
    week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
    power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
    and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
    be allowed to put on a utility pole. 

    

    Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.

    

    NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
    and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
    conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
    outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
    want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
    size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
    need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
    it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
    100A service entrance cable.

    

    My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
    then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
    for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
    3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
    installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
    knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
    and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
    the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
    for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
    fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.


    

    -Adam

    

    

    *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

    

    we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
    own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
    decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
    customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
    we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
    So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
    batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
    losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
    retain them and the benefit gained per pole

    

    

    On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
     wrote:

    How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
    other than the 48 volts? I

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that 
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...


On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never 
failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on 
top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop 
can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I 
can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
be allowed to put on a utility pole. 



Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.



NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll
want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
100A service entrance cable.



My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.



-Adam





*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
retain them and the benefit gained per pole





On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need
48 volts then wire them in series and not have to deal with the
converter.



Thank you,

Brian Webster





*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of
capacity/. 

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.





*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

I read about one of those that is already pre-packaged in a lead 
coffin.  It does have a bad history with 3 kills and about 1/2 dozen 
sickened...   You have to provide the deuce and 1/2 with the shielded 
drivers compartment.


On 8/15/23 4:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I got some old Russian thermo electric generators that are self 
heating.  They are pretty good for things like this.  You will have to 
pick them up though, Sakhalin Island.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Dennis Burgess
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:36 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can use 9dot and do your power control, dc in on solar panels 48 
volt system..    Just another option, lots of reporting and metering 
there..


*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified *


Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 



Need to Automate MikroTik Backups: https://cloud.linktechs.net 



Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 



*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:36 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

OMG get meters.  The panels and batteries will cost more up front and 
they won't last as long.  Solar sucks here in Ohio, it's only going to 
be worse where you're at.


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:54 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops
(our own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through
overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look
at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a
ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost
per customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any
voltages other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and
only need 48 volts then wire them in series and not have to
deal with the converter.

Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of
capacity/.

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs
53W in (50 / 0.95).

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on
load and temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all
circumstances. Your system should be drawing less than 5A off
the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse like most
do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure
the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know
for sure.

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on
C-rate so there’s some variability there too.  Usually it
lasts longer when you’re drawing lower amperage.  You’re
around C/30 which should be on the high end.

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If
I want 6 hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime.
When my batteries are halfway toasted I’m still getting useful
life out of them.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be
looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up
converter is the m

Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

[Robert]

https://www.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/gy1wc6/what_exactly_does_happen_when_a_submarine_goes/

On 6/22/23 9:30 PM, Robert wrote:
You actually burn from the air compressing before you get squished by 
the water..


On 6/22/23 10:19 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
Carbon fiber is not the same as fiberglass. I believe they pressure 
tested the vessel to ~~ 6,200 PSI (roughly 14,000' depth).


That said, if something goes wrong at that kind of pressure (~~ 5,400 
PSI), the failure would be measured in milliseconds.



bp


On 6/22/2023 8:34 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Water pressure at 12,500' is something like 5400 psi.  There is a 
lot of area on that tube.  Who trusts essentially fiberglass to 
withstand 5400 psi? If it was a pressure vessel it is one thing, but 
this is essentially a vacuum inside the tube, the forces pushing on 
it are not pulling on those fibers.  The tiniest non symmetry in 
shape would be no bueno.


-Original Message- From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 7:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] This thing on?

I read a commentary today saying the hull was made of titanium and 
carbon

fiber.

An Operations Director for the manufacturer delivered a quality control
report saying that the carbon fiber hull carried a risk of small 
defects

expanding into major failures under pressure.  They were relying on an
acoustic fault detection system that was supposed to alert the pilot if
there were sounds indicating stress in the hull.  That Operations 
Director
said you'd have a matter of milliseconds between that alert system 
going off
and a catastrophic failure.  He'd expressed those concerns verbally 
and was
ignored, so he delivered that report to senior management in 2018 to 
create
a written record of his concerns, and was immediately fired. Then he 
took
his report to OSHA, there was a lawsuit about divulging company 
information
or some such.  Lawsuit settled later that year, OSHA didn't take any 
action
against the manufacturer.  I'd bet a nickel that OSHA doesn't have 
specific
rules for submarines, and without any rules to follow they don't 
have enough

knowledge to assess whether one is actually safe.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2023 7:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

What a horror show.  There were so many ways they could have 
improved their
chances at survival.  Supposedly dissolvable straps should have 
dropped sand
ballast by now.  They had a way to mechanically drop steel ballast.  
And a

inflatable bladder.

Why not a power and comm tether to the mother ship?  I realize it is 
12,500'


of cable but fiber optics are pretty much neutrally buoyant.

But no underwater pinger.  No ELT.  How about a sat tel or VHF 
radio.  Some
kind of way to talk to the world.  No high pressure air to blow 
tanks.  I
would have wanted explosive bolts on the hatch if there was no other 
way to

get out.  But why not some kind of fresh air intake assuming you could
surface.  This haunts my sleep.

-Original Message-
From: Bill Prince
Tryin' to get my ass outa this cramped submarine.


bp


On 6/21/2023 3:10 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Errbody dead?











--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

[Robert]

You actually burn from the air compressing before you get squished by 
the water..


On 6/22/23 10:19 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
Carbon fiber is not the same as fiberglass. I believe they pressure 
tested the vessel to ~~ 6,200 PSI (roughly 14,000' depth).


That said, if something goes wrong at that kind of pressure (~~ 5,400 
PSI), the failure would be measured in milliseconds.



bp


On 6/22/2023 8:34 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Water pressure at 12,500' is something like 5400 psi.  There is a lot 
of area on that tube.  Who trusts essentially fiberglass to withstand 
5400 psi? If it was a pressure vessel it is one thing, but this is 
essentially a vacuum inside the tube, the forces pushing on it are 
not pulling on those fibers.  The tiniest non symmetry in shape would 
be no bueno.


-Original Message- From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 7:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] This thing on?

I read a commentary today saying the hull was made of titanium and 
carbon

fiber.

An Operations Director for the manufacturer delivered a quality control
report saying that the carbon fiber hull carried a risk of small defects
expanding into major failures under pressure.  They were relying on an
acoustic fault detection system that was supposed to alert the pilot if
there were sounds indicating stress in the hull.  That Operations 
Director
said you'd have a matter of milliseconds between that alert system 
going off
and a catastrophic failure.  He'd expressed those concerns verbally 
and was
ignored, so he delivered that report to senior management in 2018 to 
create
a written record of his concerns, and was immediately fired. Then he 
took
his report to OSHA, there was a lawsuit about divulging company 
information
or some such.  Lawsuit settled later that year, OSHA didn't take any 
action
against the manufacturer.  I'd bet a nickel that OSHA doesn't have 
specific
rules for submarines, and without any rules to follow they don't have 
enough

knowledge to assess whether one is actually safe.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2023 7:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] This thing on?

What a horror show.  There were so many ways they could have improved 
their
chances at survival.  Supposedly dissolvable straps should have 
dropped sand
ballast by now.  They had a way to mechanically drop steel ballast.  
And a

inflatable bladder.

Why not a power and comm tether to the mother ship?  I realize it is 
12,500'


of cable but fiber optics are pretty much neutrally buoyant.

But no underwater pinger.  No ELT.  How about a sat tel or VHF 
radio.  Some
kind of way to talk to the world.  No high pressure air to blow 
tanks.  I
would have wanted explosive bolts on the hatch if there was no other 
way to

get out.  But why not some kind of fresh air intake assuming you could
surface.  This haunts my sleep.

-Original Message-
From: Bill Prince
Tryin' to get my ass outa this cramped submarine.


bp


On 6/21/2023 3:10 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Errbody dead?








--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locator Repair

[Robert]

We stand behind our product to take your order for a new one...

On 6/9/23 10:48 AM, Nate Burke wrote:
Amprobe is part of Fluke.  Fluke has ended all support/repair for this 
Amprobe product in 2021.  When I called into the Amprobe/fluke repair 
line, the lady was knowledgeable, but since support ended in 2021, she 
couldn't help me.  She said they won't even sell replacement parts 
anymore.


On 6/9/2023 11:33 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

Manufacturer?

On Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:09 AM Nate Burke  wrote:

Anyone know of a repair shop for locators?  My Amprobe AT-3500
has lost
it's mind.  LCD Flashes 'ERR128' and continually reboots. If I
mash the
keys enough, it will eventually go into a 1/2 working state where
I can
still hear the tone, but won't calculate depth or change locating
frequency, and the LCD Has multiple screens overlaid at the same
time,
it displays the battery capacity image over the top of the signal
graph.  Looks like Fluke Bought Amprobe, and they EOL'd all
support/repair for that model in 2021.  If I can pay a guy $1000
to fix
it, that's cheaper than $5000 for a new locator.

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com






-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] asus routers

[Robert]

Actually asus is one of the better routers as they auto update 
firmware.  The UI is one of the best.   But this problem is related to 
their phone home check.   They need a new f/w update to fix.   The phone 
home site is down and the checks are failing and the routers are running 
out of memory...


On 5/18/23 12:23 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
yeah, serverplus screwed up their notifications email again so 
everybody is getting bounces from them. lol


asus routers are always getting hijacked I dont know why anybody still 
uses them


On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 2:19 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

?? we had one go down yesterday

On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 12:03 PM Robert 
wrote:

If you have customers running asus..   Shit is hitting the wall.

-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
Thank you,


TJ Trout
Volt Broadband
209.480.3122 Cell
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] asus routers

[Robert]

If you have customers running asus..   Shit is hitting the wall.

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

[Robert]

They used Mikrotik Metals ( the round single pole ) on the Falcons for 
sending camera back before Starlink terminals were mounted.  I don't 
doubt they copied some of the circuitry and possibly the protocols and 
likely they then used Mikrotik gear on the ground.  Once you start using 
this stuff it's hard to stop...  I certainly believe they don't spend on 
Cisco when they don't have to...


On 5/4/23 4:49 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
Hah! I bet they don’t put a Mikrotik switch in their little sats, but 
I can’t prove they don’t.



Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

*From:* AF  on behalf of Robert 


*Sent:* Thursday, May 4, 2023 6:58:30 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"
Funny, this kinda sounds like what's happening with Starlink and their 
connections to zoom, but those seem to be fixed by going to a 
different set of dns servers ( that is what the jungle drums are 
drumming )


On 5/4/23 1:23 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:


So this actually _was_ my issue.

I had disabled port isolation on 3 switches knowing I was going to 
move the uplink ports when I changed topology.


Normally if you have port isolation misconfigured then nothing works. 
Apparently on the CRS226-24G-2S+ if you have the ports assigned to 
isolation profiles and then disable those profiles then it 
/sometimes/ drop /some /traffic to that port. This didn’t become 
apparent until I did a capture onsite with a mirrored port.  I could 
ping the phone 100% of the time with zero drops, they’d get DHCP, and 
talk to the Internet, but /some /reply traffic doesn’t make it back 
to the device.  I assume it’s a bug.  You reboot the phones and they 
work again for awhile, but then after some period of time they’d just 
stop working with Zoom.  Two possible fixes are remove port isolation 
profiles from all ports, or configure it correctly and enable the 
profile.  What’s funny is there were 20+ apartments on the affected 
switches for 3 days and none of them reported any issue…..so I assume 
there was just some general low level packet loss and maybe Zoom was 
just extra tender about it?  That or the bug is specific to something 
about the Zoom traffic.  Whatever the case, I have a fix, and I’m 
moving on with life.  Not gonna test any more thoroughly on an EOL 
switch.


I’m glad Mikrotik discontinued the 226.  This ain’t the first weird 
thing I ran into on these.


I never did get an application layer log, so I don’t know why the 
“forbidden” message.  Maybe Zoom says your connection is shitty and 
I’d rather block you with a 403 you than let you have a bad MOS?  Or 
maybe Yealink says “forbidden” for any general connectivity issue?


Again it’s behind me now and I don’t care enough to test more.  I’m 
just shouting at the wind now.


-Adam

*From:* Adam Moffett  <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 8:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Thank you sir

Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>



*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> 
on behalf of Steve Jones <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>>

*Sent:* Wednesday, May 3, 2023 4:34:51 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>

*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Its a bold assumption that its the bad people i want to eliminate (-:

Im not saying either way

but if there were no "good" people, then "bad" people could only 
stand to get better. growth like that brings joy


If all the "bad" people were gone, then good people would only stand 
to get worse. Decline brings sadness.


Call me the harbinger of joy

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:47 AM <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Apparently Zoom tier1 isn’t helping.  “Check your firewall
settings” and other basic stuff.  I don’t know if they’re just
script readers or if this IT guy doesn’t know what to ask.

I don’t want to be the guy who just points fingers at the other
guy, so I’m trying.  I just wish I could capture the SIP
messages….friggin TLS so super secure that I can’t friggin help
you.  If only the world had no bad people, then we wouldn’t need
security.

I want to hear Steve Jones’s plan for eliminating all the bad
people.  I bet he has one.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 10:49 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

This is really simple. If they can ping the internet or do
anything else that requires i

Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

[Robert]

Funny, this kinda sounds like what's happening with Starlink and their 
connections to zoom, but those seem to be fixed by going to a different 
set of dns servers ( that is what the jungle drums are drumming )


On 5/4/23 1:23 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


So this actually _was_ my issue.

I had disabled port isolation on 3 switches knowing I was going to 
move the uplink ports when I changed topology.


Normally if you have port isolation misconfigured then nothing works. 
Apparently on the CRS226-24G-2S+ if you have the ports assigned to 
isolation profiles and then disable those profiles then it /sometimes/ 
drop /some /traffic to that port.  This didn’t become apparent until I 
did a capture onsite with a mirrored port.  I could ping the phone 
100% of the time with zero drops, they’d get DHCP, and talk to the 
Internet, but /some /reply traffic doesn’t make it back to the 
device.  I assume it’s a bug.  You reboot the phones and they work 
again for awhile, but then after some period of time they’d just stop 
working with Zoom.  Two possible fixes are remove port isolation 
profiles from all ports, or configure it correctly and enable the 
profile.  What’s funny is there were 20+ apartments on the affected 
switches for 3 days and none of them reported any issue…..so I assume 
there was just some general low level packet loss and maybe Zoom was 
just extra tender about it? That or the bug is specific to something 
about the Zoom traffic.  Whatever the case, I have a fix, and I’m 
moving on with life.  Not gonna test any more thoroughly on an EOL switch.


I’m glad Mikrotik discontinued the 226. This ain’t the first weird 
thing I ran into on these.


I never did get an application layer log, so I don’t know why the 
“forbidden” message.  Maybe Zoom says your connection is shitty and 
I’d rather block you with a 403 you than let you have a bad MOS?  Or 
maybe Yealink says “forbidden” for any general connectivity issue?


Again it’s behind me now and I don’t care enough to test more.  I’m 
just shouting at the wind now.


-Adam

*From:* Adam Moffett 
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 8:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Thank you sir

Get Outlook for iOS 



*From:*AF  on behalf of Steve Jones 


*Sent:* Wednesday, May 3, 2023 4:34:51 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

Its a bold assumption that its the bad people i want to eliminate (-:

Im not saying either way

but if there were no "good" people, then "bad" people could only stand 
to get better. growth like that brings joy


If all the "bad" people were gone, then good people would only stand 
to get worse. Decline brings sadness.


Call me the harbinger of joy

On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:47 AM  wrote:

Apparently Zoom tier1 isn’t helping.  “Check your firewall
settings” and other basic stuff.  I don’t know if they’re just
script readers or if this IT guy doesn’t know what to ask.

I don’t want to be the guy who just points fingers at the other
guy, so I’m trying.  I just wish I could capture the SIP
messages….friggin TLS so super secure that I can’t friggin help
you.  If only the world had no bad people, then we wouldn’t need
security.

I want to hear Steve Jones’s plan for eliminating all the bad
people.  I bet he has one.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 03, 2023 10:49 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Yealink "Forbidden"

This is really simple. If they can ping the internet or do
anything else that requires internet at the same time the phones
show offline, it's not your problem. They should be contacting
their phone provider.

Their voip provider can provide them host names to ping or trace
to in order to troubleshoot. If you don't sell the voip, you
shouldn't be troubleshooting it aside from making sure your
network ping, jitter, and packetloss are normal.

On Wed, May 3, 2023, 8:13 AM  wrote:

I’m trying to help a customer with their Yealink phones. 
Their provider is Zoom.

I’m 99% sure this is not my problem, but I’m chronically too
nice to people so I’m helping anyway.

So apparently when they go to dial out they’ll get a message
on the screen saying “Forbidden”.  I’m not sure if there’s
more to the message because I only know what they’re telling
me.   When this starts happening their IT guy says the phones
show up as “offline” in whatever management portal they’re
using.  They factory reset the phone, it reprovisions, shows
up as “online” in their portal and works again for some period
of minutes or hours and then does the same thing again.  I
asked if a simple reboot works, but the I

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Robert]

Somewhere recently I got sent a picture of a ancient hand crushing vice 
that was used by the church to correct blasphemers.  Sounds like you 
need to add that to your kit...


On 4/21/23 8:37 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
obviously you dont want your kids playing near the punji traps or 
claymores. but digging the holes and sharpening the sticks for the 
traps is a good family project. And if you catch one of the petas or 
neonazis in the holes, its an excellent opportunity to teach problem 
solving skills, like where to separate the joints so that the captures 
are more easily transported to the pig pen. Its about working smarter, 
not harder. Then there is melting the fillings down into ingots and 
the grinding of the teeth to powder for the gardens. So many 
opportunities on a compound for family bonding.


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

I mean maybe?  I used ludicrous examples because I'm not trying to
pick on anyone particular.  I don't care which side of the cup you
drink the kool-aid from, I just don't want a bunch of lunatics
hanging around where my kids might be playing.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 9:17 AM Steve Jones
 wrote:

a proper compound doesnt need to concern itself with the
quality of the neighbors. All you need to worry about is
proper placement of punji traps and claymores. Its the
alphabets you need to worry about, they have helicopters


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:48 AM Adam Moffett
 wrote:

So would you guys actually buy that compound? I'm trying
to wrap my head around who would buy it and what for.

I was looking at an empty lot to be my little outdoor
playground, and it has one of these Amish places adjacent
to it.  In the back of my head I'm picturing some kind of
weirdo cultists moving in. Like nudist PETA eco-terrorists
or  neo-confederate klansmen.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:09 PM Adam Moffett
 wrote:

The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can
drive through Amish communities and see "for sale"
signs one after the other.  The Amish are generally
known for good workmanship, to the point where some
people go out of their way to get Amish building
contractors.  They also have multigenerational
households, so you get these large properties with
huge well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The
problem is they have no utilities at all.  They'll
have hand pumped wells and outhouses and wood stoves.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?

I linked the above example because it was easy to
find, but that particular one has electric out by the
road.  I saw a similar one for sale where there was no
electric service available and it was listed for
$140k.  That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing: 
What could you do with a huge house with no
electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a cult?




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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Amish Lands

[Robert]

Off grid homes are easy now with LFP batteries, it would just be the 
hassle of wiring it, specially as they probably don't use sheet rock 
interior walls.   So you are probably doing conduit all around the 
outside walls.   But they probably all have basements that you could 
also wire through.


On 4/20/23 5:09 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
The Amish are making a mass exodus from NY.  You can drive through 
Amish communities and see "for sale" signs one after the other.  The 
Amish are generally known for good workmanship, to the point where 
some people go out of their way to get Amish building contractors.  
They also have multigenerational households, so you get these large 
properties with huge well-built houses, barns, and outbuildings.  The 
problem is they have no utilities at all.  They'll have hand pumped 
wells and outhouses and wood stoves.


https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/234-Hunts-Corners-Center-Lisle-Rd-Marathon-NY-13803/223346029_zpid/?

I linked the above example because it was easy to find, but that 
particular one has electric out by the road.  I saw a similar one for 
sale where there was no electric service available and it was listed 
for $140k.  That's a friggin 'steal except for one thing:  What could 
you do with a huge house with no electricity?  A scout camp?  Start a 
cult?









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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Robert]

One of my childhood favorites, because Susan Clark...

Colossus: The Forbin Project



On 4/19/23 3:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I remember seeing that at the drive in.  Double feature with Andromeda 
Strain.

“This is the voice of Colossus” AI hooked with an AI in Russia...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 3:55 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
How about the original Colossus?

On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year

*From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
*To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My arduino nano can do it in a week.
*From:* Steven Kenney via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Steven Kenney
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3
minutes...that's been a while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't
think it's 10-15 though.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was
supporting it.  Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7. 
But before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get
3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.


--
Best regards,
Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com <http://www.Myakka.com>

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your
hold time is kinda long..


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:
https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
<http://www.towercoverage.com>

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3
different providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP
will do it's magic and traffic will start flowing though the
surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of
unstable Internet while this is happening.  Is this normal?
If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  Is it a
function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers? Keep-Alive
is 30s and hold is at 90s. Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work
under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB>

https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com&umid=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5

<https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com&umid=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5>


DB> --
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DB> AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Robert]

How about the original Colossus?

On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year



*From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" 
*Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
*To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My arduino nano can do it in a week.
*From:* Steven Kenney via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Steven Kenney
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3
minutes...that's been a while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't
think it's 10-15 though.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was
supporting it.  Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7. 
But before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3
brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.


--
Best regards,
Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com 

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your
hold time is kinda long..


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups: https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com


DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC. We peer with 3
different providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP
will do it's magic and traffic will start flowing though the
surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable
Internet while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not,
what can I do to speed up the process?  Is it a function of my
routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster routers
help?  Is it a function of timers? Keep-Alive is 30s and hold
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work
under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB>

https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com&umid=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B&auth=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5




DB> --
DB> AF mailing list
DB> AF@af.afmug.com
DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] Short Term Employee

[Robert]

Those are ok if they are done to OSHA standards...

On 4/10/23 7:27 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

...nor let him see the piles of bodies in the landfill.

bp


On 4/10/2023 6:53 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
He is calling OSHA, but that shouldnt be a concern, you just hit the 
osha guy with a pipe and put him in the dumpster, landfills are full 
of OSHA inspectors. But really, im coming to find out OSHA compliance 
isnt the beast it is presented as, just dont let him see your triple 
stacked boxes falling over





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Re: [AFMUG] Short Term Employee

[Robert]

Document his work, and I wish you have videoed some of it to have 
evidence.  I get the feeling he's gonna bite..   At least have a 
discussion of his work with those, besides you or your family, who 
worked with him and can provide backup to your experiences...


On 4/8/23 12:47 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I hired a guy to be a production manager over our grout mixing machine 
product.
He came with a pedigree of doing this at other places.  I didn’t check 
him out, just trusted the resume.

He did have interesting ideas but soon it became evident:
He liked to sit and talk –alot.
He did not want to start helping cleaning up the bill of materials 
(primary job responsibility). (did absolutely nothing along those lines)
He wanted us to farm things out to his buddies (like have fastenal kit 
the nuts and bolts, have this other company make your sheet metal for 
you).
OK, was trying to absorb ideas and suggestions.  After all he was over 
building all the production equipment at the local Purple Mattress 
factory (or so he said).
I expected him to help task employees in his department, but soon when 
asked where they were and what were they doing, he had no idea.
I gave them a task to modify a mounting fixture by cutting it and 
inserting 10” of steel tubing.  Rather than have them do what I asked, 
he took new steel and made one from scratch.
So he wasted the steel, his time and he used too thin of material.  
Took two hours.
I told him you could make the modification in 10 minutes, he argued 
that point.
So I took a stand, cut it, extended it, using a stopwatch.  3 minutes 
43 seconds
When I complained about it, he said that my fixtures were too weak and 
they were going to kill someone.  I demoed one with about 10X load not 
failing.
Then he started complaining about other things, deflecting that he did 
not do what I asked and did something else wasteful and substandard.
Interspersed with my request was not clear and he didn’t understand 
what I wanted...

He said my repair to a air compressor was unsafe.
He said he got arc flash in his eye from a distance of about 60 feet, 
etc etc.  Had to buy stuff to build safe welding stalls, etc etc.
So I  made a casual comment to my son (who is taking over) yesterday: 
“you know, when a guy like this leaves a company whether fired or not, 
they sometimes call OSHA just to cause problems”

Then I actually listened to my own words and agreed with myself.
Late in the day this problem employee said to me: “I guess I am going 
to have to ignore my own exceptionalism to be able work here”.
That bugged me the longer I thought about it.  I fired him via email 
about an hour after he left...  Made it one full week and a couple 
days the prior week.

He can bless someone else with his exceptionalism.
AITA?

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Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

le. And I've contacted democrats I've voted for to voice
my opinions.
I don't see Republicans calling out far right politicians who
are spewing hate everyday. I wish they would but since they
aren't, I assume they agree with the hate speech and calls for
violence.
The right is far sicker than the left in every regard. Donald
being elected over Hillary will go down in history as one of
the worst political events in our country. We would be a much
nicer and stable country if Hillary won. The racists, bigots,
and violent people would mostly be hiding still but Donald
gave them permission to act out their hate when he was
elected. It's very sad.
People who still support Donald are bullies and hate America
at this point.
On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Ouchie!
You called me the C word...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a
thing as a good cult, which is what I consider the Mormon
church to be.  They have a few extreme points of view but
on the whole they treat everyone ( now including other
races ) reasonably...   And they care about kids and back
it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school
kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats
are wrong about Republicans. Why? Here’s why —
because, what we’re doing now is we’re only listening
to the most extreme voices in those parties. So
Republicans are only listening to the craziest
Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like
that. Democrats are only listening to the craziest
Republicans and assuming all Republicans are like
that. When the difference between the average Democrat
and the average Republican, really isn’t that big.”
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian
left and authoritarian right, which are what catch the
most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>


*From: *"Darin Steffl" mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:40:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

To be fair, anything left leaning is better for
humanity. The right doesn't seem to care about anyone
different than them. There's very little empathy from
the right so if AI is here, it's best that it cares
about all people in the information it provides.
Don't bite my head off. I'm socially liberal and
fiscally conservative. I care about all people, even
if I don't like them.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 6:25 PM Steve Jones
 wrote:


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/23/openai-connects-chatgpt-to-the-internet/
I have to admit, Ive been using the shit out of
chatgpt, from writing configs, to search engine
replacement that actually answers questions, and
just general fuckery to see what I can get it to
do. It wont kill engineers or turn off exhaust

Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

But it's a good C...   The one that I contemplated joining in my 20's 
when they dangled a very cute girl in front of me...


On 3/24/23 6:22 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

Shots fired.

On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Ouchie!
You called me the C word...
    *From:* Robert
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as a
good cult, which is what I consider the Mormon church to be. They
have a few extreme points of view but on the whole they treat
everyone ( now including other races ) reasonably...   And they
care about kids and back it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats are wrong
about Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing
now is we’re only listening to the most extreme voices in those
parties. So Republicans are only listening to the craziest
Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like that.
Democrats are only listening to the craziest Republicans and
assuming all Republicans are like that. When the difference
between the average Democrat and the average Republican, really
isn’t that big.”
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and
authoritarian right, which are what catch the most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>


<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

*From: *"Darin Steffl" mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:40:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

To be fair, anything left leaning is better for humanity. The
right doesn't seem to care about anyone different than them.
There's very little empathy from the right so if AI is here, it's
best that it cares about all people in the information it provides.
Don't bite my head off. I'm socially liberal and fiscally
conservative. I care about all people, even if I don't like them.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 6:25 PM Steve Jones
 wrote:


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/23/openai-connects-chatgpt-to-the-internet/
I have to admit, Ive been using the shit out of chatgpt, from
writing configs, to search engine replacement that actually
answers questions, and just general fuckery to see what I can
get it to do. It wont kill engineers or turn off exhaust
systems in the building if you were curious. It does have a
massive left leaning political bias.
But some of the stuff it couldnt do because it wasnt
connected to the internet, so now ill be back at it. I hope i
can get it to do some wargames stuff.
...
would you like to play a game

Sure, I would love to play a game with you! What game would
you like to play?

Steve Jones
global thermo nuclear warfare

I'm sorry, but I cannot play a game of global thermonuclear
warfare with you as it is not a real game, but rather a
fictional concept popularized by the 1983 film "WarGames."
Additionally, it is not appropriate to simulate a scenario
involving nuclear weapons as it could be potentially harmful
and insensitive to those affected by nuclear weapons in the
past. Is there another game you would like to play instead?''

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Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

He was willing to say _anything_ to his base to appease them.  I doubt 
he believes in anything, except his own brilliance and ability to 
manipulate the system.   His only goal is to be royalty and above the 
law.   He admires anyone who has attained that and it is probably all 
that he studies.


On 3/24/23 4:43 PM, Bill Prince wrote:


I wouldn't put Putin or Kim Jong Un on the left.

What I struggle with is the Great Orange Jesus (GOJ). Is he left or 
right? I say neither extreme left or right. Just extreme. He got a 
bunch of the extreme right to side with him, but I don't believe he 
was on anyone's side but his own.




bp

On 3/24/2023 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Karl Marx
Lenin
Stalin
Putin
Pretty sure those dudes were far worst than Trump
Even Castro
Kim Jong Un
Seriously you thing the far left are better?
*From:* Darin Steffl
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:54 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
The extreme left is still better than the extreme right.
I don't agree with either sides' extremes but if I had to pick one 
side, everyone being taken care of, like socialism, I'd pick that 
over the extreme right who wants to murder anyone different than 
them. Like far right pastors and supporters who call for violence and 
murder of gay people, people of color, and liberals. I can find 
thousands of posts and video from Republicans calling for sick things 
but very few liberals saying the same things.
I don't see far left people calling for violence and murder of people 
they disagree with.
So while there are two sides, one side is better than the other, as 
in less violent and extreme.
I'd take free college for all, free Healthcare, and more from the 
extreme left over the extreme right who wants to ban books, kill 
people they disagree with, try to overturn elections, cheat, lie, 
steal, etc. Again, the left is the better choice when it comes to 
empathy and taking care of people.
While an average republican might not agree with the far right, their 
silence is the same as being complicit in their sick beliefs.
At least an average Democrat calls out the far left people like I do. 
I don't agree in wiping out all student loans, for example. And I've 
contacted democrats I've voted for to voice my opinions.
I don't see Republicans calling out far right politicians who are 
spewing hate everyday. I wish they would but since they aren't, I 
assume they agree with the hate speech and calls for violence.
The right is far sicker than the left in every regard. Donald being 
elected over Hillary will go down in history as one of the worst 
political events in our country. We would be a much nicer and stable 
country if Hillary won. The racists, bigots, and violent people would 
mostly be hiding still but Donald gave them permission to act out 
their hate when he was elected. It's very sad.
People who still support Donald are bullies and hate America at this 
point.
On Fri, Mar 24, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Ouchie!
You called me the C word...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as
a good cult, which is what I consider the Mormon church to be. 
They have a few extreme points of view but on the whole they
treat everyone ( now including other races ) reasonably...   And
they care about kids and back it up.

On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats are wrong
about Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing
now is we’re only listening to the most extreme voices in those
parties. So Republicans are only listening to the craziest
Democrats and assuming that all Democrats are like that.
Democrats are only listening to the craziest Republicans and
assuming all Republicans are like that. When the difference
between the average Democrat and the average Republican, really
isn’t that big.”
*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and
authoritarian right, which are what catch the most attention.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>

<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>&

Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

[Robert]

exactly this...  What I have learned is there is such a thing as a good 
cult, which is what I consider the Mormon church to be.  They have a few 
extreme points of view but on the whole they treat everyone ( now 
including other races ) reasonably...   And they care about kids and 
back it up.


On 3/24/23 2:12 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

I loved what the Gov of Utah told a bunch of school kids yesterday.
“Republicans are wrong about Democratsand Democrats are wrong about 
Republicans. Why? Here’s why — because, what we’re doing now is we’re 
only listening to the most extreme voices in those parties. So 
Republicans are only listening to the craziest Democrats and assuming 
that all Democrats are like that. Democrats are only listening to the 
craziest Republicans and assuming all Republicans are like that. When 
the difference between the average Democrat and the average 
Republican, really isn’t that big.”

*From:* Mike Hammett
*Sent:* Friday, March 24, 2023 12:37 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] It has begun
There's no meaningful difference between authoritarian left and 
authoritarian right, which are what catch the most attention.




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Darin Steffl" 
*To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Sent: *Thursday, March 23, 2023 9:40:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] It has begun

To be fair, anything left leaning is better for humanity. The right 
doesn't seem to care about anyone different than them. There's very 
little empathy from the right so if AI is here, it's best that it 
cares about all people in the information it provides.
Don't bite my head off. I'm socially liberal and fiscally 
conservative. I care about all people, even if I don't like them.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2023, 6:25 PM Steve Jones  
wrote:


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/23/openai-connects-chatgpt-to-the-internet/
I have to admit, Ive been using the shit out of chatgpt, from
writing configs, to search engine replacement that actually
answers questions, and just general fuckery to see what I can get
it to do. It wont kill engineers or turn off exhaust systems in
the building if you were curious. It does have a massive left
leaning political bias.
But some of the stuff it couldnt do because it wasnt connected to
the internet, so now ill be back at it. I hope i can get it to do
some wargames stuff.
...
would you like to play a game

Sure, I would love to play a game with you! What game would you
like to play?

Steve Jones
global thermo nuclear warfare

I'm sorry, but I cannot play a game of global thermonuclear
warfare with you as it is not a real game, but rather a fictional
concept popularized by the 1983 film "WarGames." Additionally, it
is not appropriate to simulate a scenario involving nuclear
weapons as it could be potentially harmful and insensitive to
those affected by nuclear weapons in the past. Is there another
game you would like to play instead?''

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Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Robert Andrews]

 A host is a host from coast to coast.  And nobody talks to a host 
that's close, unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead...


UUCP email days...

On 3/13/23 15:46, Jan-GAMs wrote:

George Noory?  But I preferred Art Bell

Hey, that large company I worked for, well, one of the employees who 
also got a lot of email, was injured and was out for like 3 months.  Her 
inbox got too full with unread mail and brought down the entire email 
system.


On 3/12/23 14:52, Robert Andrews wrote:

Who remembers a famous USENET author that had:

A host is a host from coast to coast

(what was the next line?)

As part of their signature..  Not the copycats, but the original...



On 3/12/23 13:13, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Back in the day, just sniffing the ethernet would get you all the 
email flying around your company.  Was kinda fun.

I know one guy that would purposely jam another’s outgoing email.
Once he detected who it was from he would just turn on transmit. This 
was on a CSMA/CD coaxial network.

*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Sunday, March 12, 2023 2:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early 
days.   There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back 
to the origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to 
obfuscate but not hide that origin.
Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not 
knowing or not being willing to disclose that information. Every 
email received generally will be able to be tracked back to the 
origin server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the 
origin server will be unable to be determined since any random person 
can spin up a server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.
Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate 
that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given 
domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a 
way for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to 
come from them actually comes from them and for companies like google 
to be able to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender 
information.



On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:

    Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
    via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
    who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
    then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
    emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
    employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
    it in the computer room where the other users could use it. Back
    then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
    plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
    generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
    know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
    etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
    can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

    On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:

    wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?
    This is getting to some Qanon level right here
    On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs 
    wrote:

    good question Forrest. mail.com <http://mail.com> provides
    several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
    works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
    applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
    monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
    by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
    functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
    the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
    since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
    it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
    into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
    now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
    and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
    verified spam mail.

    Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
    your privacy?

    Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
    anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
    not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
    a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
    have tried to do so, including myself.  It's way easier to buy
    it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
    is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
    more than 10 emails at a time an

Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Robert Andrews]

Who remembers a famous USENET author that had:

A host is a host from coast to coast

(what was the next line?)

As part of their signature..  Not the copycats, but the original...



On 3/12/23 13:13, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Back in the day, just sniffing the ethernet would get you all the email 
flying around your company.  Was kinda fun.

I know one guy that would purposely jam another’s outgoing email.
Once he detected who it was from he would just turn on transmit.  This 
was on a CSMA/CD coaxial network.

*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
*Sent:* Sunday, March 12, 2023 2:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early days.   
There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back to the 
origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to obfuscate but 
not hide that origin.
Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not 
knowing or not being willing to disclose that information.  Every email 
received generally will be able to be tracked back to the origin 
server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the origin server 
will be unable to be determined since any random person can spin up a 
server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.
Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate 
that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given 
domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a way 
for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to come from 
them actually comes from them and for companies like google to be able 
to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender information.



On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs  wrote:

Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
it in the computer room where the other users could use it.  Back
then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:

wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?
This is getting to some Qanon level right here
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs 
wrote:

good question Forrest. mail.com  provides
several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
verified spam mail.

Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
your privacy?

Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
have tried to do so, including myself.  It's way easier to buy
it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
more than 10 emails at a time and you have to wait up to an
hour before you can send 10 more.  That's why I tried to build
my own, just so I could send customers the monthly billing
automatically.  I even hired a programmer who said he had done
it before, he failed.

On 3/12/23 07:32, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

I can insert a spoofed email using only telnet to port 25 on
a mail server in about 30 seconds not counting the time it
takes to type the message itself. Basically you telnet to
port 25, issue four commands (HELO, MAIL

Re: [AFMUG] mail servers

[Robert Andrews]

The original Usenet email had the actual path to a major server (ATT, 
UCB, UCSB, etc... ) in the beginning every email address, pretty hard 
not to know the path of the users back then...


On 3/12/23 13:01, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Internet email isn't anonymous,  never was.  Even in the early days.  
  There has always been a multitude of ways to track email back to the 
origin server.  And there has been a multitude of ways to obfuscate but 
not hide that origin.


Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not 
knowing or not being willing to disclose that information.  Every email 
received generally will be able to be tracked back to the origin 
server,  with the caveat that sometimes the owner of the origin server 
will be unable to be determined since any random person can spin up a 
server, send mail,  and drop off the planet.


Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user.   They only validate 
that the email originated from servers known to send mail for a given 
domain and provide some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a way 
for legitimate companies to ensure that email that appears to come from 
them actually comes from them and for companies like google to be able 
to reject what appear to be emails with spoofed sender information.




On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs > wrote:


Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself
via the arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those
who used the email system would always remain anonymous.  Of course,
then later they published a 5,000 page phone book with all our
emails associated with our work addresses for over 50,000
employees.  I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and put
it in the computer room where the other users could use it.  Back
then we had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big
plastic cartridge with a huge disk in it.  If I recall, this
generated a lawsuit, because they promised us that no-one would ever
know our email address associated with our work phone, work address,
etc... .  It wasn't true then and it still isn't true.  But that
can't make it, the promise, unsaid.

On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:

wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?

This is getting to some Qanon level right here

On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs mailto:j.vank...@grnacres.net>> wrote:

good question Forrest. mail.com  provides
several hundred domains to choose from and use and easily
works with thunderbird as well as most other email reader
applications.  Plus it's free.  All Google is doing is
monopolizing email.  Email was originally designed to be used
by arpanet to be free/open/anonymous and to still be
functional even after a global war.  Using spf/dkim removes
the anonymous.  I don't think that's right.  I also think that
since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail,
it also seems it could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim
into it with a little more python scripting.  End result is
now google knows exactly who you are and who you're sending to
and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have
verified spam mail.

Who are you?  Who do you know?  What is the content? Where is
your privacy?

Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know
anyone who has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do
not know anyone who has actually built and setup successfully
a homebrew DIY email server.  I do know lots of people who
have tried to do so, including myself. It's way easier to buy
it as a service and then it gets expensive.  Another problem
is most of the free email servers won't allow users to send
more than 10 emails at a time and you have to wait up to an
hour before you can send 10 more.  That's why I tried to build
my own, just so I could send customers the monthly billing
automatically. I even hired a programmer who said he had done
it before, he failed.

On 3/12/23 07:32, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

I can insert a spoofed email using only telnet to port 25 on
a mail server in about 30 seconds not counting the time it
takes to type the message itself. Basically you telnet to
port 25, issue four commands (HELO, MAIL FROM, RCPT TO,
DATA), and then type the message itself.

Spoofing email in an automated way only takes some basic
python skills.   Like I could teach anyone with a bit of
computer experience how to do it in about an hour or so. 
This python script can run on anything that runs python,

which is pretty much any 

Re: [AFMUG] RF Cage for WIFI

[Robert]

Why red force rooms had double doors that would have shredded said 
dollar bill..


On 2/28/23 6:47 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
A microwave probably fits through the seam in your lead lined case.  A 
was talking once with an IBM guy who worked in some kind of RF 
shielded room.  He said if he wanted his cell phone to work inside the 
room he just had to put a dollar bill in the door.


Get Outlook for iOS 

*From:* AF  on behalf of Nate Burke 


*Sent:* Monday, February 27, 2023 8:08:55 PM
*To:* Animal Farm 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] RF Cage for WIFI
I've got a Comcast residential Modem that I can't get the RF turned off
in.  I haven't been able to find the right phrase at support to get them
to do it.  So far All that's happened is they've removed the SSID's, but
the RF is still broadcasting.  There are some 'RF cages' on Amazon to
'limit your exposure to WIFI'  But they're marketed as making your house
'healthier'  and reviews say they just slightly weaken the signal.

Is there a way to properly ground out a cage around the modem to block
all the WIFI?  Many moons ago, back in the days of 802.11b, I put an AP
into a lead lined pelican case, and was still able to connect to the
WIFI from outside of it.  I'm guessing I didn't do something right back
then.

FWIW though, I am getting 2.4gb/s x 230mb/s through the coax
connection.  There's only a 2.5G interface on the modem.

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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange

[Robert]

One of the best things I heard out of Elon Musk ox, is that technology 
is expensive and the higher level the tech the more expensive it is.   
To maintain, to improve, to fix, to buy...


On 2/16/23 8:06 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
Weldong is one of those "entry level" gigs that comes at a great cost 
to the employer offering on the job training. Increases in material 
costs, increases in QC failures, increases on returns. 6 months at 15 
bucks an hour to destroy a bunch of material becoming proficient at 
best is a more than fair compensation.








My neice (millenial) wants to rent one of my parents rentals thats got 
a bunch of repairs to be done from the last tenant. She wants to live 
rent free in exchange for doing the repairs. I told her she 
doesnt bring anything to the table. I tried explaining to her that 
trade for service means you bring the requisite knowlege to perform 
the service. She got hot and tried the "what because im a girl" I shot 
that down. Then she said she can learn from youtube. It went round and 
round with her not comprehending that learning from youtube is what 
you do in your own home, on your own dime. She didnt comprehend that 
the material costs will go up as she damages more than she fixes 
learning from youtube. She didnt comprehend that she doesnt posess the 
toolset to perform the tasks and would spend more on buying them than 
she would on rent (she planned on just using our tools, and damaging 
those).
My folks are old, theyre doing the repairs themselves, its taking a  
long time. realistically we could hire it done and everything knocked 
out in a few days by a pro for the value of maybe two months rent. It 
will probably take them a few more months to get it done.
The niece I think believes she could have no rent for like 6 months to 
do a few days professional work at a low quality standard.


I always have done my best to teach my children to know both their 
value, and their place. These younger folks have no guage of value not 
do they comprehend their place. Its got a lot to do with the tools 
available to complete the underlying tasks. They master these iphones 
and other gadgets and think they are techs, yet they 
couldnt troubleshoot a hardware issue if their tits were in a press. 
These are the people who are going to be taking care of me as i age 
out of the workforce and it terrifies me. The underlying systems were 
built by what they call boomers, maintained by what they call boomers, 
and they will be operating them to maintain us that they call boomers 
when the systems begin to fail and they down have the worth to fix them.


its a scary world out there

On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:55 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to adult,
lives with her brother and his wife told me that I just don’t
understand how hard it is today compared to when I was younger. 
So I did a little comparison for her:
My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour.  That would be about
$10.70/hour today.
(I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave
labor on the farm from 1960 until I escaped).
My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional, utility
lineman job in 1979 paid $4.50/hour.
That would be about $18 today.
My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000 in
1982.  Or about $36K today.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/744-S-1750-W-Vernal-UT-84078/2070550612_zpid/
So how is it people have it so much worse today?
*From:* Jeff Broadwick - Lists
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not
actually parent.  Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting,
you’ll likely have the opportunity out to become friends with your
kids after they move out.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com


On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson
 wrote:



Yeah, that’s a problem for sure.

All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity and
wealth and entitlement.

Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their
minds. To use a phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it.

I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a month and
eating the same PB&J and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no
monthly spend.

I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as
furniture. My monthly output was focused on paying rent and a bit
for food and my car.

I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what I
could find and working my way up.

And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is shit, I
am entitled to more because I exist.” Lol

My grown kids ask for very little and even then get told no all
 

Re: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP access to ROW

[Robert]

He gets arrested and killed by the police for being in the good 
neighborhood...   ( I said it before Steve did )


On 2/7/23 12:09 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

What about a black male teen in a good neighborhood?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 3:07 PM Carl Peterson 
 wrote:


Josh - has a lot more to do with who "you" are.  Black male teen
is likely more like 1/5.  45yo white guy in a good neighborhood is
more likely to get ripped on conduit fees and taxes.  I actually
live in MN now but my office is still in Baltimore.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 1:43 PM Josh Luthman
 wrote:

Isn't Baltimore known for its massive growth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore
>The American city of Baltimore, Maryland, is notorious for
its crime rate, which ranks well above the national average.

>Your chance of being a victim of violent crime in Baltimore
is 1 in 64 and property crime is 1 in 33

Holy jesus that's way worse than what I had in mind.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 2:12 PM  wrote:

I picked a pretty much random residential block in
Baltimore. 225ft long.  30 buildings (counting both sides
of the street).  There are typically 1 or 2 mailboxes on
each building.  If I assume 1.5 units per building then
there 45 passings (and it’s probably not that many in
reality).

If that $3.33/ft is per month ….then some back of the
napkin math tells me you’d pretty much have to hook up
every single house to make that worthwhile.

Which means this rule guarantees a monopoly in Baltimore
forever. Come on guys WTF.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2023 1:57 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP
access to ROW

$3.33 one time, or recurring?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Carl
Peterson
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 07, 2023 12:00 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP
access to ROW

Baltimore City won't give you ROW access any sort of way. 
They want you to pay $3.33 per foot to use their conduit
system.  If you need new duct you need to build it, give
it to them, and pay $3.33 per foot to use it. We were in
the process of leveraging Title II to force them to give
us access to run our own ducts under sidewalks when Title
II got yanked back in 2017.  That's a big part of why we
left WISPA. We just gave up on the idea and bought a
company in FL and started running fiber.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 10:49 AM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Yep, a larger town in my area wanted as much for the
ROW access as it would cost to buy the fiber and conduit.

*From:*Josh Luthman

*Sent:*Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:33 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Cc:*syssup

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about
ISP access to ROW

Getting CLEC does *NOT* remove all confusion.

In my case, a village has no permits (of any kind), no
understanding of ROW, wanted to charge us rent to
access the space, etc.

In others' experience, I've heard DOT/county being
extraordinarily difficult to work with to issue a permit.

On Tue, Feb 7, 2023 at 10:20 AM Jim Bouse [Brazos
WiFi]  wrote:

We got setup as a CLEC to remove all confusion. 
If you are planning on being in the fiber
business, quit messing around and do it right.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-999-7000
http://www.brazoswifi.com

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of
Larry Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2023 9:03 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
; syssup 
Subject: [AFMUG] Question for the "borg" about ISP
access to ROW


Question for those more in tune than I.

We are working (attempting) with our local
electric company for access to their ROW for some
of our fiber and they have stated that the rights
granted ISP's under Title II (telecommunications
provider) in 2015 was reversed in 201

Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert]

That episode left a lot out, specifically about crumple zones.

1) should have had a car sitting against the wall and slammed into it at 
100mph and 50 mph


2) should have had their clay tests with objects that deform.

3) should have had a car stationary not against a wall against a car 
moving at 50 and 100 mph..., i.e. the car stationary could move 
backwards all the way through the collisions


the two cars hitting each other at 50, yes they are not immovable 
objects in the collision AND they have crumple zones.  And two cars have 
twice the crumple zone.   There is a huge amount of energy going into 
crumpling twice the steel, even with twice the mass...




On 2/7/23 8:48 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Good video.
I am now faced with asking State Farm to make me whole with respect to 
the crash.

We have had bad experience with State Farm in the past.
Any tips?
*From:* Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 1:18 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
Watch the video.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 2:52 PM Robert Andrews  
wrote:


two crumple zones hitting each other vs one crumple zone hitting a
wall,
makes off the cuff sense to me...  two old, non crumple zone, cars
hitting each other would seem like what it would take to get a 120
mph
impact.   Those crumple zones make a monster difference...



On 2/6/23 10:52, Josh Luthman wrote:
> Not correct, Bill :(
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 1:07 PM Bill Prince  <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> There would be the difference between colliding with an "almost"
> immovable object (wall) versus colliding with a vehicle that has
> some semblance of a crush zone. I don't know how much that
> difference would be.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 2/6/2023 9:04 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> As I recall, mythbusters did the whole two cars head on vs
one car
>> and an immovable wall.  Seemed like there was no difference.
>> *From:* Brian Webster
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:25 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
>>
>> Yes I would rather have a collision with another car at the
>> difference in speed than the combined speed of the two…. 
>>
>> 
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of
>> *dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:54 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
>>
>> 
>>
>> Huh….never heard them called Jersey Barriers before.
>>
>> Apparently the slope on the bottom is to make your tires
ride up
>> so you redirect back into your own lane (though possibly
flipped
>> over) whereas a flat wall might make you flip into the oncoming
>> lane. 
>>
>> Fun stuff.
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:* AF 
>> <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2023 10:42 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
>>
>> 
>>
>> Same, california name for them.   Always remembered that
name from
>> the movie "Volcano"
>>
>> On 2/3/23 5:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> Looks the same as Jersey barriers?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> 
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Robert
>> mailto:i...@avantwireless.com wrote:
>>
>>  surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over,
>> double it up...
>>
>>
>>

https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall

<https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall>
>>
>> On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, sonotube filled wi

Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert Andrews]

two crumple zones hitting each other vs one crumple zone hitting a wall, 
makes off the cuff sense to me...  two old, non crumple zone, cars 
hitting each other would seem like what it would take to get a 120 mph 
impact.   Those crumple zones make a monster difference...




On 2/6/23 10:52, Josh Luthman wrote:

Not correct, Bill :(

On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 1:07 PM Bill Prince <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:


There would be the difference between colliding with an "almost"
immovable object (wall) versus colliding with a vehicle that has
some semblance of a crush zone. I don't know how much that
difference would be.


bp


On 2/6/2023 9:04 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

As I recall, mythbusters did the whole two cars head on vs one car
and an immovable wall.  Seemed like there was no difference.
*From:* Brian Webster
*Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:25 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

Yes I would rather have a collision with another car at the
difference in speed than the combined speed of the two…. 



Brian



*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 9:54 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much



Huh….never heard them called Jersey Barriers before.

Apparently the slope on the bottom is to make your tires ride up
so you redirect back into your own lane (though possibly flipped
over) whereas a flat wall might make you flip into the oncoming
lane. 

Fun stuff.



*From:* AF 
    <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Robert
*Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2023 10:42 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much



Same, california name for them.   Always remembered that name from
the movie "Volcano"

On 2/3/23 5:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks the same as Jersey barriers?

Sent from my iPhone



On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Robert
mailto:i...@avantwireless.com wrote:

 surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over,
double it up...



https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall
 
<https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall>

On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a
picket fence of them.  Cheaper than a cutover to a new
building.  I have 576 strands feeding this shelter. 
Or maybe I beam hammered in with a pile driver. 




Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com <http://www.mccowntech.com>
www.microtrench.pro <http://www.microtrench.pro>
www.terabitnetworks.com
<http://www.terabitnetworks.com>



*From:*TJ Trout 

*Sent:*Friday, February 3, 2023 10:08 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Cc:*Chuck McCown 

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much



I'm sure you could design some bollards that wouldn't
allow a tractor trailer through your fence 😁



On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 8:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

I think we are going to install a larger shelter,
farther away from the I-80 ROW fence.  Second
crash right there.  First to come through the
fence.  Car landed on our back up generator after
wiping out our fiber splicing trailer, dump
trailer and really nice powered reel trailer. 



Hope the kid had insurance.  No seat belt.  Head
wound but apparently no broken bones. 



*From:*Mark Radabaugh 

*Sent:*Friday, February 3, 2023 7:27 AM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

*Subj

Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert]

Same, california name for them.   Always remembered that name from the 
movie "Volcano"


On 2/3/23 5:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Looks the same as Jersey barriers?

Sent from my iPhone


On Feb 3, 2023, at 5:29 PM, Robert  wrote:

 surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over, double it up...


https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall


On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a picket fence of 
them.  Cheaper than a cutover to a new building.  I have 576 strands 
feeding this shelter. Or maybe I beam hammered in with a pile driver.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* TJ Trout
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 10:08 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I'm sure you could design some bollards that wouldn't allow a 
tractor trailer through your fence 😁
On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 8:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


I think we are going to install a larger shelter, farther away
from the I-80 ROW fence.  Second crash right there. First to
come through the fence.  Car landed on our back up generator
after wiping out our fiber splicing trailer, dump trailer and
really nice powered reel trailer.
Hope the kid had insurance.  No seat belt.  Head wound but
apparently no broken bones.
*From:* Mark Radabaugh
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 7:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I don’t see the brown stain marking where you were standing
before the car arrived.
Mark
Mark Radabaugh
Amplex
22690 Pemberville Rd
Luckey, OH 43443
419-837-5015 x 1021
419-261-5996 cell
m...@amplex.net


On Feb 3, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:








Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much

[Robert]

surplus K rail, if you think they might make it over, double it up...


https://www.eiffeltrading.com/marketplace/traffic-barrier/barrier-wall/k-rail-barrier-wall


On 2/3/23 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Yeah, sonotube filled with a rebar cage.  Make a picket fence of 
them.  Cheaper than a cutover to a new building.  I have 576 strands 
feeding this shelter.  Or maybe I beam hammered in with a pile driver.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* TJ Trout
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 10:08 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Chuck McCown
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I'm sure you could design some bollards that wouldn't allow a tractor 
trailer through your fence 😁

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023, 8:34 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

I think we are going to install a larger shelter, farther away
from the I-80 ROW fence. Second crash right there.  First to come
through the fence.  Car landed on our back up generator after
wiping out our fiber splicing trailer, dump trailer and really
nice powered reel trailer.
Hope the kid had insurance.  No seat belt.  Head wound but
apparently no broken bones.
*From:* Mark Radabaugh
*Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2023 7:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Missed me by that much
I don’t see the brown stain marking where you were standing before
the car arrived.
Mark
Mark Radabaugh
Amplex
22690 Pemberville Rd
Luckey, OH 43443
419-837-5015 x 1021
419-261-5996 cell
m...@amplex.net


On Feb 3, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:








Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [AFMUG] IP Camera Reccomendations.

[Robert Andrews]

I didn't see anything like a complete guide to non-compliant cameras, 
it's just a page of optiview cameras...


On 2/2/23 09:58, Jan-GAMs wrote:
Here is a list of non-compliant: 
https://optiviewusa.com/articles/complete-guide-to-ndaa-compliant-surveillance-systems/


On 2/2/23 09:36, Josh Luthman wrote:
I have a couple of Axis cameras.  Overall decent. Motion 
sensing/recording is C- to my expectations but the best I've found.  I 
don't really want to record 24/7 and store it for a month...


On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 12:26 AM Seth Mattinen via AF  
wrote:



I use Axis, all of their stuff is NDAA compliant.



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Re: [AFMUG] IP Camera Reccomendations.

[Robert]

I don't think this is banned, but I run them secured from internet 
access


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZFYMXPM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On 2/1/23 3:54 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
Looking for some additional standards-based IP cameras to add to my 
system.  H.264, H.265, etc. Various types.  Dome, maybe 360 fisheye, 
and I think I need two more which are either a bit more directional or 
that I can swap the lens on since what I'm watching is a bit far from 
where I can mount the cameras.


Don't want something tied to a specific PVR which I think includes the 
UBNT cameras.


I would also prefer to avoid brands which are on the FCC banned list  
(https://www.fcc.gov/supplychain/coveredlist) or are known to have 
serious security issues which eliminates the HikVision cameras many of 
us used to use.  The ones I have already are on a separate subnet 
which is firewalled from the internet (no access except to my 
surveillance server), but I don't really want to add more if I can 
avoid it for a reasonable price.


What is everyone using?

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- Forrest

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Re: [AFMUG] beet juice

[Robert]

What about RV antifreeze?  Non-toxic...

On 1/25/23 5:11 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Beet juice was a failed experiment too.  When it is good and cold it 
plugs up nozzles.  The stuff I tried was liquid.

Propylene Glycol is best and non toxic.  They put it in toothpaste.
*From:* Steve Jones
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 25, 2023 5:26 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* [AFMUG] beet juice
where does a guy look to find beetjuice for lowering water 
freezepoint that doesnt have other additives or salt in in? saline 
free beet brine if you will. Is beet soluble enough to get in powder 
form?



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