[AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Andreas Wiatowski]

Hi all,

Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and in 
home router/cabinet.

If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable

I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive 
proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a road 
map to faster olt access.

Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com
19 Sage 
Court

Brantford, Ontario N3R 
7T4 
(CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[chuck]

Active just use a big-assed switch with lots of SFP ports and media converters 
at the houses.

I prefer Calix but it is not the cheapest thing out there.  I know others have 
tried to save money by using Adtran or Chinese gear and have not been happy.  

From: Andreas Wiatowski 
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 5:53 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

Hi all, 

Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.  
If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and in 
home router/cabinet.

If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable

I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive 
proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a road 
map to faster olt access. 

Cheers,
__

Andreas Wiatowski | CEO

Silo Wireless Inc.

Email  andr...@silowireless.com

19 Sage Court

Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)

Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Chris Fabien]

What's your budget and what's the neighborhood like? Small subdivision or
rural/dispersed?
On Feb 12, 2016 7:53 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and
> in home router/cabinet.
>
> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>
> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive
> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
> road map to faster olt access.
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

It depends a great deal on the physical layout of the homes and trenched
cable/pole/aerial topology. How many places would you need an AC
electricity powered node for activeE?  Are you OK using large strand count
cables to haul all the activeE back to one location? Is it like, a housing
development full of loops and cul-de-sacs or is it a linear rural road with
poles along it? A neighborhood of townhouses?




On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and
> in home router/cabinet.
>
> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>
> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive
> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
> road map to faster olt access.
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.

There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used market
that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for
people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor. But
that same equipment is perfect for activeE.

Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for 1000BaseT
to the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.


GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port for
each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.


On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and
> in home router/cabinet.
>
> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>
> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive
> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
> road map to faster olt access.
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
dumb, to be honest (IMO).

The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
residential every dollar counts.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
> best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
> equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
> with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>
> There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used market
> that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for
> people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor. But
> that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>
> Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for 1000BaseT to
> the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>
>
> GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
> non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port for
> each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and
>> in home router/cabinet.
>>
>> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>>
>> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive
>> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
>> road map to faster olt access.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> __
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Andreas Wiatowski]

2 street in a cross formation.  The homes are about 100ft frontage... Looking 
at all overhead pole work... No underground.



Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
19 Sage Court
Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138


 Original message 
From: Chris Fabien 
Date: 2016-02-12 9:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?


What's your budget and what's the neighborhood like? Small subdivision or 
rural/dispersed?

On Feb 12, 2016 7:53 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and in 
home router/cabinet.

If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable

I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive 
proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a road 
map to faster olt access.

Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
19 Sage Court
Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Key part there is, *is going to be*...  is it available or shipping now?
If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
active.

Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
optic at each end.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>
> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
> residential every dollar counts.
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
> > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
> > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
> >
> > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
> market
> > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for
> > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
> But
> > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
> >
> > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
> 1000BaseT to
> > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
> >
> >
> > GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
> > non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port
> for
> > each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
> >> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet
> and
> >> in home router/cabinet.
> >>
> >> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
> >>
> >> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
> attractive
> >> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
> >> road map to faster olt access.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> __
> >>
> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
> >>
> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
> >>
> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
> >>
> >> 19 Sage Court
> >>
> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
> >>
> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> >> +1.866.727.4138
> >
> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as
your existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the
split over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:

> Key part there is, *is going to be*...  is it available or shipping now?
> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
> active.
>
> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
> optic at each end.
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>
>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
>> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>>
>> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
>> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
>> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
>> residential every dollar counts.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
>> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
>> > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
>> > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>> >
>> > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
>> market
>> > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs
>> for
>> > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
>> But
>> > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>> >
>> > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
>> 1000BaseT to
>> > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>> >
>> >
>> > GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
>> > non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port
>> for
>> > each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>> >> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet
>> and
>> >> in home router/cabinet.
>> >>
>> >> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>> >>
>> >> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
>> attractive
>> >> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have
>> a
>> >> road map to faster olt access.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> __
>> >>
>> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>> >>
>> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>> >>
>> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>> >>
>> >> 19 Sage Court
>> >>
>> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>> >>
>> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> >> +1.866.727.4138
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Doesn't that almost entirely negate the cost advantages of GPON, namely,
that there's a lot lower strand count and your fiber outside plant design
can use passive prism splits for the transport to the actively AC powered
network node?

*You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
fiber in many designs, right?*

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as
> your existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the
> split over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>
>> Key part there is, *is going to be*...  is it available or shipping
>> now?  If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
>> active.
>>
>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
>> optic at each end.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
>>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
>>> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>>>
>>> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
>>> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
>>> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
>>> residential every dollar counts.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being
>>> the
>>> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
>>> > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and
>>> routers
>>> > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>>> >
>>> > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
>>> market
>>> > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs
>>> for
>>> > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
>>> But
>>> > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>>> >
>>> > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
>>> 1000BaseT to
>>> > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs
>>> and
>>> > non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port
>>> for
>>> > each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
>>> >  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi all,
>>> >>
>>> >> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>>> >> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in
>>> cabinet and
>>> >> in home router/cabinet.
>>> >>
>>> >> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>>> >>
>>> >> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
>>> attractive
>>> >> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen
>>> have a
>>> >> road map to faster olt access.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers,
>>> >>
>>> >> __
>>> >>
>>> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>> >>
>>> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>> >>
>>> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>> >>
>>> >> 19 Sage Court
>>> >>
>>> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>> >>
>>> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>>> >> +1.866.727.4138
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Andreas Wiatowski]

So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider? ... I 
have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... But much more 
expensive.



Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
19 Sage 
Court

Brantford, Ontario N3R 
7T4 
(CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138
 Original message 
From: Josh Reynolds 
Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?


You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active fiber in 
many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the  upgrade process 
to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your existing PON 
split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split over to the new 
SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.

On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?  If 
somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or active.

Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics) gives 
you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable plant, if 
things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from each powered 
network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10, then 40, then 
100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics in the next ten 
years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap and easy to connect 
each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE optic at each end.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
dumb, to be honest (IMO).

The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
residential every dollar counts.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
> best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
> equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
> with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>
> There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used market
> that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for
> people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor. But
> that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>
> Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for 1000BaseT to
> the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>
>
> GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
> non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port for
> each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
> mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and
>> in home router/cabinet.
>>
>> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>>
>> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive
>> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
>> road map to faster olt access.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> __
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656 
>> Extension-600|Fax 
>> +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

Wat? No. You run 1-4 active 10Gbps ports (or more) over to your GPON
chassis, and then go ~20Km to your subs from there. If you were doing
a very dense setup like Calix E7-20 would use, that supports multiple
100Gbps uplinks.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> Doesn't that almost entirely negate the cost advantages of GPON, namely,
> that there's a lot lower strand count and your fiber outside plant design
> can use passive prism splits for the transport to the actively AC powered
> network node?
>
> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active fiber
> in many designs, right?
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
>> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
>> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your
>> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split
>> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
>>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
>>> active.
>>>
>>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
>>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
>>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
>>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
>>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
>>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
>>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
>>> optic at each end.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>>> wrote:

 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
 it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
 dumb, to be honest (IMO).

 The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
 as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
 maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
 residential every dollar counts.

 On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
 wrote:
 > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being
 > the
 > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
 > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and
 > routers
 > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
 >
 > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
 > market
 > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs
 > for
 > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
 > But
 > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
 >
 > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
 > 1000BaseT to
 > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
 >
 >
 > GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs
 > and
 > non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port
 > for
 > each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
 >
 >
 > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
 >  wrote:
 >>
 >> Hi all,
 >>
 >> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
 >> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in
 >> cabinet and
 >> in home router/cabinet.
 >>
 >> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost
 >> effective/reliable
 >>
 >> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
 >> attractive
 >> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen
 >> have a
 >> road map to faster olt access.
 >>
 >> Cheers,
 >>
 >> __
 >>
 >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
 >>
 >> Silo Wireless Inc.
 >>
 >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
 >>
 >> 19 Sage Court
 >>
 >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
 >>
 >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
 >> +1.866.727.4138
 >
 >
>>>
>>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Mike Hammett]

I look at AE vs. GPON differences being electronics and heat. Strands are cheap 
and not worth worrying about to me. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Eric Kuhnke"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:27:50 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon? 


Doesn't that almost entirely negate the cost advantages of GPON, namely, that 
there's a lot lower strand count and your fiber outside plant design can use 
passive prism splits for the transport to the actively AC powered network node? 



You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active fiber in 
many designs, right? 


On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 



You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active fiber in 
many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the upgrade process 
to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your existing PON 
split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split over to the new 
SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure. 
On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 




Key part there is, is going to be ... is it available or shipping now? If 
somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or active. 

Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics) gives 
you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable plant, if 
things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from each powered 
network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10, then 40, then 
100Gbps someday. Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics in the next ten 
years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap and easy to connect 
each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE optic at each end. 



On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds < j...@kyneticwifi.com > wrote: 




10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against 
it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just... 
dumb, to be honest (IMO). 

The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well 
as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers 
maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in 
residential every dollar counts. 

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 
> I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the 
> best choice, for one big reason... You can use all kinds of SFP-based 
> equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers 
> with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers. 
> 
> There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used market 
> that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for 
> people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor. But 
> that same equipment is perfect for activeE. 
> 
> Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for 1000BaseT to 
> the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use. 
> 
> 
> GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and 
> non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port for 
> each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc. 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski 
> < andr...@silowireless.com > wrote: 
>> 


>> Hi all, 
>> 
>> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes. 
>> If I do active, what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and 
>> in home router/cabinet. 
>> 
>> If GPon, what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable 
>> 
>> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive 
>> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a 
>> road map to faster olt access. 
>> 
>> Cheers, 
>> 
>> __ 
>> 
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO 
>> 
>> Silo Wireless Inc. 
>> 
>> Email andr...@silowireless.com 
>> 
>> 19 Sage Court 
>> 
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA) 
>> 
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600 |Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
>> +1.866.727.4138 
> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Chris Fabien]

I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like this.
Very low cost of entry.

We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all the
strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized if
we did splitting closer to the customer.
On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
wrote:

> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider?
> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... But
> much more expensive.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>  Original message 
> From: Josh Reynolds 
> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as
> your existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the
> split over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>
>> Key part there is, *is going to be*...  is it available or shipping
>> now?  If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
>> active.
>>
>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
>> optic at each end.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
>>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
>>> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>>>
>>> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
>>> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
>>> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
>>> residential every dollar counts.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being
>>> the
>>> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
>>> > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and
>>> routers
>>> > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>>> >
>>> > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
>>> market
>>> > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs
>>> for
>>> > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
>>> But
>>> > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>>> >
>>> > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
>>> 1000BaseT to
>>> > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs
>>> and
>>> > non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port
>>> for
>>> > each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
>>> >  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi all,
>>> >>
>>> >> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>>> >> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in
>>> cabinet and
>>> >> in home router/cabinet.
>>> >>
>>> >> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>>> >>
>>> >> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
>>> attractive
>>> >> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen
>>> have a
>>> >> road map to faster olt access.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers,
>>> >>
>>> >> __
>>> >>
>>> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>> >>
>>> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>> >>
>>> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>> >>
>>> >> 19 Sage Court
>>> >>
>>> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>> >>
>>> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600
>>> <%2B1.519.449.5656%20%20Extension-600>|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>>> >> +1.866.727.4138
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.

1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
chassis.

On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
> I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like this.
> Very low cost of entry.
>
> We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all the
> strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
> with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized if
> we did splitting closer to the customer.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
> wrote:
>>
>> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider?
>> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... But
>> much more expensive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> __
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Josh Reynolds 
>> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>
>> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
>> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
>> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your
>> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split
>> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
>>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
>>> active.
>>>
>>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
>>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
>>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
>>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
>>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
>>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
>>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
>>> optic at each end.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
>>>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
>>>> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>>>>
>>>> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
>>>> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
>>>> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
>>>> residential every dollar counts.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being
>>>> > the
>>>> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
>>>> > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and
>>>> > routers
>>>> > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>>>> >
>>>> > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
>>>> > market
>>>> > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs
>>>> > for
>>>> > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
>>>> > But
>>>> > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>>>> >
>>>> > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
>>>> > 1000BaseT to
>>>> > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>>>> &g

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Craig Schmaderer]

If you are thinking about GPON, I would totally go with Calix.  They are the 
biggest gpon vendor in the US, and they have a tone of new onts that came out.  
Indoor units with just Ethernet, or built in ac routers.  Their stuff is the 
bomb.

Craig R. Schmaderer
CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc.
Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058
Direct: 402-372-1052

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Wiatowski
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:31 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider? ... I 
have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... But much more 
expensive.



Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
19 Sage 
Court
Brantford, Ontario N3R 
7T4 
(CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138
 Original message 
From: Josh Reynolds mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>>
Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?


You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active fiber in 
many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the  upgrade process 
to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your existing PON 
split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split over to the new 
SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?  If 
somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or active.
Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics) gives 
you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable plant, if 
things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from each powered 
network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10, then 40, then 
100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics in the next ten 
years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap and easy to connect 
each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE optic at each end.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
dumb, to be honest (IMO).

The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
residential every dollar counts.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
> best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
> equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
> with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>
> There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used market
> that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for
> people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor. But
> that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>
> Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for 1000BaseT to
> the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>
>
> GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
> non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port for
> each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
> mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and
>> in home router/cabinet.
>>
>> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable
>>
>> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive
>> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a
>> road map to faster olt access.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> __
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656 
>> Extension-600|Fax 
>> +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

The cost is stupid. I know some of the other platforms don't have all
of the same bells and whistles, but if you're still able to do the
same features to end users, they don't know and won't care.

You also said something very, very important. "They are the biggest
gpon vendor *in the US*". Calix made a very important acquisition a
few years back when they bought Occam, which was a smart move.

Some people buy PMP4xx. Some people buy UBNT (and more units are sold).

Some people buy Calix. Some people buy Huawei, or $vendor (and more
units are sold).

All have their places.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:37 PM, Craig Schmaderer
 wrote:
> If you are thinking about GPON, I would totally go with Calix.  They are the
> biggest gpon vendor in the US, and they have a tone of new onts that came
> out.  Indoor units with just Ethernet, or built in ac routers.  Their stuff
> is the bomb.
>
>
>
> Craig R. Schmaderer
>
> CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc.
>
> Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058
>
> Direct: 402-372-1052
>
>
>
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Wiatowski
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:31 PM
>
>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
>
>
> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider?
> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... But
> much more expensive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>
>  Original message 
>
> From: Josh Reynolds 
>
> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
>
>
> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active fiber
> in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the  upgrade
> process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your
> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split
> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>
> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?  If
> somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or active.
>
> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
> optic at each end.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>
> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
> residential every dollar counts.
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>> I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being the
>> best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
>> equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and routers
>> with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>>
>> There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
>> market
>> that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs for
>> people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor. But
>> that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>>
>> Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for 1000BaseT
>> to
>> the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>>
>>
>> GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs and
>> non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port for
>> each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, 

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[George Skorup]

I think Chuck Hogg said he's doing 4:1's near customers and feeding 
those with 8:1's at the cabinet. 4:1 means you can deliver 600Mbps to 
each customer if you eventually back off the cabinet splitter to zero. 
That's more than enough bandwidth for a typical customer. If you have 
any businesses, give them a dedicated strand and do BiDi AE.


We're in the cost analysis stage for a project and it *will* be GPON. 
It's a remote area and 300+ ports of active would be ridiculous and way, 
way overkill.


On 2/12/2016 9:47 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.

1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
chassis.

On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  wrote:

I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like this.
Very low cost of entry.

We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all the
strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized if
we did splitting closer to the customer.

On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
wrote:

So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider?
... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... But
much more expensive.



Cheers,

__

Andreas Wiatowski | CEO

Silo Wireless Inc.

Email  andr...@silowireless.com

19 Sage Court

Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)

Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
+1.866.727.4138

 Original message 
From: Josh Reynolds 
Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as your
existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split
over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.

On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:

Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
active.

Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi optics)
gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and cable
plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path from
each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E 10,
then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE optics
in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap
and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE
optic at each end.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
dumb, to be honest (IMO).

The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
residential every dollar counts.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
wrote:

I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being
the
best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of SFP-based
equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and
routers
with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.

There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the grey/refurb/used
market
that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth needs
for
people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal hypervisor.
But
that same equipment is perfect for activeE.

Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
1000BaseT to
the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.


GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary CPEs
and
non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real ethernet port
for
each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.


On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
 wrote:

Hi all,

Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in
cabinet and
in home router/cabinet.

If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost
effective/reliable

I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
attractive
proposition compared to active.

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

Yeah, you're talking at full saturation for each user though. If you
look at his graphs of user usage (and others), it comes in spikes. If
you design around a 1x16 split, you're ending up with ~155Mbps per
user at max saturation on standard 2.5Gbps pon. When you transition
that to NG-PON2, that's 625Mbps per user at max saturation (10Gbps
mode), or 2.5Gbps per user at max saturation (40Gbps mode).

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 11:14 PM, George Skorup  wrote:
> I think Chuck Hogg said he's doing 4:1's near customers and feeding those
> with 8:1's at the cabinet. 4:1 means you can deliver 600Mbps to each
> customer if you eventually back off the cabinet splitter to zero. That's
> more than enough bandwidth for a typical customer. If you have any
> businesses, give them a dedicated strand and do BiDi AE.
>
> We're in the cost analysis stage for a project and it *will* be GPON. It's a
> remote area and 300+ ports of active would be ridiculous and way, way
> overkill.
>
> On 2/12/2016 9:47 PM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>>
>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>
>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> chassis.
>>
>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
>>>
>>> I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>>> this.
>>> Very low cost of entry.
>>>
>>> We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all
>>> the
>>> strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
>>> with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized
>>> if
>>> we did splitting closer to the customer.
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>>>> consider?
>>>> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option...
>>>> But
>>>> much more expensive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>>
>>>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>>>
>>>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>>>
>>>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>>>
>>>> 19 Sage Court
>>>>
>>>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>>>
>>>> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>>>> +1.866.727.4138
>>>>
>>>>  Original message 
>>>> From: Josh Reynolds 
>>>> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>>>
>>>> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
>>>> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
>>>> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as
>>>> your
>>>> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split
>>>> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
>>>>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
>>>>> active.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi
>>>>> optics)
>>>>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and
>>>>> cable
>>>>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path
>>>>> from
>>>>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to active-E
>>>>> 10,
>>>>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE
>>>>> optics
>>>>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be
>>>>> cheap
>>>>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair of
48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in a
weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.

Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 to
6 1U switches.
On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:

> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>
> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
> chassis.
>
> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
> this.
> > Very low cost of entry.
> >
> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all
> the
> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized
> if
> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
> >
> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
> consider?
> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option...
> But
> >> much more expensive.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> __
> >>
> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
> >>
> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
> >>
> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
> >>
> >> 19 Sage Court
> >>
> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
> >>
> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> >> +1.866.727.4138
> >>
> >>  Original message 
> >> From: Josh Reynolds 
> >> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
> >> To: af@afmug.com
> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
> >>
> >> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
> >> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
> >> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as
> your
> >> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the split
> >> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
> >>
> >> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
> >>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
> >>> active.
> >>>
> >>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi
> optics)
> >>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and
> cable
> >>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path
> from
> >>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to
> active-E 10,
> >>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with 10GbE
> optics
> >>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be
> cheap
> >>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK
> 100GbE
> >>> optic at each end.
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against
> >>>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
> >>>> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
> >>>>
> >>>> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well
> >>>> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
> >>>> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
> >>>> residential every dollar counts.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE being
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

Does. Not. Scale.

You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair of
> 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in a
> weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>
> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 to 6
> 1U switches.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>>
>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>
>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> chassis.
>>
>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
>> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>> > this.
>> > Very low cost of entry.
>> >
>> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all
>> > the
>> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
>> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized
>> > if
>> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
>> >
>> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>> >> consider?
>> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option...
>> >> But
>> >> much more expensive.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> __
>> >>
>> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>> >>
>> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>> >>
>> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>> >>
>> >> 19 Sage Court
>> >>
>> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>> >>
>> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> >> +1.866.727.4138
>> >>
>> >>  Original message 
>> >> From: Josh Reynolds 
>> >> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> >> To: af@afmug.com
>> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>> >>
>> >> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
>> >> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
>> >> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand as
>> >> your
>> >> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the
>> >> split
>> >> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
>> >>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or
>> >>> active.
>> >>>
>> >>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi
>> >>> optics)
>> >>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path and
>> >>> cable
>> >>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light path
>> >>> from
>> >>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to
>> >>> active-E 10,
>&g

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Chris Fabien]

Josh,
I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an
isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.

That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size -
50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area.
Active was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each
home.

Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo
when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON
which is very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which
we are in one case.
On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:

> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.
>
> Does. Not. Scale.
>
> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.
>
> This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
> not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
> several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
> rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
> SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
> batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
> Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
> about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
> 22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
> > That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> > distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair
> of
> > 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS,
> in a
> > weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
> >
> > Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1
> to 6
> > 1U switches.
> >
> > On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
> >>
> >> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
> >> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
> >> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
> >>
> >> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
> >> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
> >> chassis.
> >>
> >> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien 
> wrote:
> >> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
> >> > this.
> >> > Very low cost of entry.
> >> >
> >> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing
> all
> >> > the
> >> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended
> up
> >> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully
> utilized
> >> > if
> >> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
> >> >
> >> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" <
> andr...@silowireless.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
> >> >> consider?
> >> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good
> option...
> >> >> But
> >> >> much more expensive.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> __
> >> >>
> >> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
> >> >>
> >> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
> >> >>
> >> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
> >> >>
> >> >> 19 Sage Court
> >> >>
> >> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
> >> >>
> >> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> >> >> +1.866.727.4138
> >> >>
> >> >>  Original message 
> >> >> From: Josh Reynolds 
> >> >> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
> >> >> To: af@afmug.com
> >> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
> >> >>
> >> >> You realize the transport core to t

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Lewis Bergman]

;> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>> >> >> consider?
>> >> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good
>> option...
>> >> >> But
>> >> >> much more expensive.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> __
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 19 Sage Court
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> >> >> +1.866.727.4138
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  Original message 
>> >> >> From: Josh Reynolds 
>> >> >> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> >> >> To: af@afmug.com
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still
>> active
>> >> >> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of
>> the
>> >> >> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber
>> strand as
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the
>> >> >> split
>> >> >> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" 
>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping
>> now?
>> >> >>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON
>> or
>> >> >>> active.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi
>> >> >>> optics)
>> >> >>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path
>> and
>> >> >>> cable
>> >> >>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light
>> path
>> >> >>> from
>> >> >>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to
>> >> >>> active-E 10,
>> >> >>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with
>> 10GbE
>> >> >>> optics
>> >> >>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll
>> be
>> >> >>> cheap
>> >> >>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK
>> >> >>> 100GbE
>> >> >>> optic at each end.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds <
>> j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting
>> >> >>>> against
>> >> >>>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
>> >> >>>> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as
>> >> >>>> well
>> >> >>>> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers
>> >> >>>> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in
>> >> >>>> residential every dollar counts.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke <
>> eric.kuh...@gmail.com>
>> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>> > I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on the side of activeE
>> >> >>>> > being
>> >> >>>> > the
>> >> >>>> > best choice, for one big reason...  You can use all kinds of
>> >> >>>> > SFP-based
>> >> >>>> > equipment (24/48-port 1U switches) or chassis based switches and
>> >> >>>> > routers
>> >> >>>> > with 24/48-port blades from a huge variety of manufacturers.
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > There's a lot of 48-port SFP stuff out there on the
>> >> >>>> > grey/refurb/used
>> >> >>>> > market
>> >> >>>> > that came out of datacenters, and no longer meets the bandwidth
>> >> >>>> > needs
>> >> >>>> > for
>> >> >>>> > people who are doing 10GbE (or 2x10GbE) to each bare metal
>> >> >>>> > hypervisor.
>> >> >>>> > But
>> >> >>>> > that same equipment is perfect for activeE.
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > Same idea as a Cisco 3750G-48 is no longer enough bandwidth for
>> >> >>>> > 1000BaseT to
>> >> >>>> > the server in colo environments, but is perfect for MDU use.
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > GPON/EPON/whateverPON is all a mess of manufacturer proprietary
>> >> >>>> > CPEs
>> >> >>>> > and
>> >> >>>> > non-interoperable stuff. Whereas with activeE and a real
>> ethernet
>> >> >>>> > port
>> >> >>>> > for
>> >> >>>> > each customer you can use $30 media converters as your demarc.
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Andreas Wiatowski
>> >> >>>> >  wrote:
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Hi all,
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.
>> >> >>>> >> If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in
>> >> >>>> >> cabinet and
>> >> >>>> >> in home router/cabinet.
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost
>> >> >>>> >> effective/reliable
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an
>> >> >>>> >> attractive
>> >> >>>> >> proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have
>> seen
>> >> >>>> >> have a
>> >> >>>> >> road map to faster olt access.
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> __
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> 19 Sage Court
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>> >> >>>> >>
>> >> >>>> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll
>> Free
>> >> >>>> >> +1.866.727.4138
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>> >
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Sterling Jacobson]

I agree. Start active, then if you like, scale up to GPON.

You can go from active to GPON in that outdoor cabinet that started as Active.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 5:29 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?


Josh,
I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an isp 
with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.

That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be 
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size - 50 
to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area. Active 
was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.

Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo when 
fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON which is 
very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which we are in one 
case.
On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds" 
mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

Does. Not. Scale.

You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair of
> 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in a
> weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>
> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 to 6
> 1U switches.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds" 
> mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>
>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>
>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> chassis.
>>
>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien 
>> mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com>> wrote:
>> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>> > this.
>> > Very low cost of entry.
>> >
>> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all
>> > the
>> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
>> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized
>> > if
>> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
>> >
>> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 
>> > mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>> >> consider?
>> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option...
>> >> But
>> >> much more expensive.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> __
>> >>
>> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>> >>
>> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>> >>
>> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
>> >>
>> >> 19 Sage Court
>> >>
>> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>> >>
>> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 
>> >> Extension-600|Fax 
>> >> +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> >> +1.866.727.4138
>> >>
>> >>  Original message 
>> >> From: Josh Reynolds mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>>
>> >> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> >> To: af@afmug.c

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Andreas Wiatowski]

Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been 
struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I 
understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate growing 
this area to 600+ subs.  We have multiple villages within 3 km of each other 
that we will expand to. Why this entire build is exciting is that we already 
own 70 percent of the market.  Getting these customers on fibre allows those 
that can't a much better experience as we unload the tower sites and reduces 
CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting the cabinet beside a 
carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps tls back to my core where I 
can expand and provision multiple tls. I can envision using GPon to cost 
effectively come back to that centralized cabinet and remove the power 
requirements and maintain a single cabinet.  I understand active gives me cheap 
fast full GB to the home,  but my guess is that consumers will be happy with a 
25 Mbps experience or better. I think that the gpon solution is upgradeable 
enough... Yes,  you have to change out cards and ONT,  but that is a business 
decision when the time comes.

I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research to do 
with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms systems and 
capabilities.

Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back to the 
centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a group of 
homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both?

Thanks!



Cheers,
__
Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
Silo Wireless Inc.
Email  andr...@silowireless.com<mailto:andr...@silowireless.com>
19 Sage Court
Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138


 Original message 
From: Chris Fabien 
Date: 2016-02-13 7:28 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?


Josh,
I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an isp 
with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.

That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be 
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size - 50 
to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area. Active 
was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.

Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo when 
fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON which is 
very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which we are in one 
case.

On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds" 
mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

Does. Not. Scale.

You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair of
> 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in a
> weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>
> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 to 6
> 1U switches.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds" 
> mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com>> wrote:
>>
>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>
>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> chassis.
>>
>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien 
>> mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com>> wrote:
>> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>> > this.
>> > 

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Chris Fabien]

Andreas, the key issue we ran into was PON port utilization. You'll need to
very carefully lay out your fiber routes. Our typical service area is rural
roads, 5-20 houses per mile. So with PON we were excited at the prospect of
being able to place a 1x8 splitter each mile and then a 1x4 at each
pedestal (up to 8 peds per mile). This seemed like a great fit and would
let us do up to 5 miles of road fed from a single 12F drop cable. The
problem is that you end up essentially allocating a PON for each mile and
never fully loading it because there's not that many houses on that mile.
Since you are starting with a 70% penetration that may help, we typically
see 50%-60% only after a couple years in a deployment. These are mostly
unserved areas we are deploying, but most customers are suck in contract
with someone.

I think a "typical" GPON deployment will have a splitter/patch cabinet out
in the field where they aggregate several hundred strands from homes to one
spot and then install 1x32 splitters in that cabinet as needed. Then you
only need 1 fiber per splitter back to you NOC where the OLT lives. So you
still need a cabinet somewhere that is susceptible to damage, you still
need at least medium size cables coming back to the cabinet, you still need
10s of strands back to the NOC. It just made more sense to me to make that
an active cabinet. Maybe as a WISP guy I'm more comfortable with
electronics out in a cabinet than some providers.

Neither is a wrong answer ultimately, and the customers won't know and will
be thrilled either way.


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Andreas Wiatowski  wrote:

> Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been
> struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I
> understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate
> growing this area to 600+ subs.  We have multiple villages within 3 km of
> each other that we will expand to. Why this entire build is exciting is
> that we already own 70 percent of the market.  Getting these customers on
> fibre allows those that can't a much better experience as we unload the
> tower sites and reduces CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting
> the cabinet beside a carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps
> tls back to my core where I can expand and provision multiple tls. I can
> envision using GPon to cost effectively come back to that centralized
> cabinet and remove the power requirements and maintain a single cabinet.  I
> understand active gives me cheap fast full GB to the home,  but my guess is
> that consumers will be happy with a 25 Mbps experience or better. I think
> that the gpon solution is upgradeable enough... Yes,  you have to change
> out cards and ONT,  but that is a business decision when the time comes.
>
> I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research
> to do with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms
> systems and capabilities.
>
> Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back
> to the centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a
> group of homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Chris Fabien 
> Date: 2016-02-13 7:28 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
> Josh,
> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an
> isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.
>
> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be
> working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size -
> 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area.
> Active was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each
> home.
>
> Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo
> when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON
> which is very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which
> we are in one case.
> On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>
>> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
>> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.
>>
>> Does. Not. Scale.
>>
>> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.
>>
>> 

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Gino Villarini]

For such a low user count, ill go with GEPON (vsGPON) We have been
sucessfully using it in MDU locations.  Planet PizzaBox OLT with 2 GEPON
Ports is about $1200, ONUS (CPE) about $40

Put 64 in each.. your done

So far, no issues...

http://www.planet.com.tw/en/product/product.php?id=45442




On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Chris Fabien  wrote:

> Andreas, the key issue we ran into was PON port utilization. You'll need
> to very carefully lay out your fiber routes. Our typical service area is
> rural roads, 5-20 houses per mile. So with PON we were excited at the
> prospect of being able to place a 1x8 splitter each mile and then a 1x4 at
> each pedestal (up to 8 peds per mile). This seemed like a great fit and
> would let us do up to 5 miles of road fed from a single 12F drop cable. The
> problem is that you end up essentially allocating a PON for each mile and
> never fully loading it because there's not that many houses on that mile.
> Since you are starting with a 70% penetration that may help, we typically
> see 50%-60% only after a couple years in a deployment. These are mostly
> unserved areas we are deploying, but most customers are suck in contract
> with someone.
>
> I think a "typical" GPON deployment will have a splitter/patch cabinet out
> in the field where they aggregate several hundred strands from homes to one
> spot and then install 1x32 splitters in that cabinet as needed. Then you
> only need 1 fiber per splitter back to you NOC where the OLT lives. So you
> still need a cabinet somewhere that is susceptible to damage, you still
> need at least medium size cables coming back to the cabinet, you still need
> 10s of strands back to the NOC. It just made more sense to me to make that
> an active cabinet. Maybe as a WISP guy I'm more comfortable with
> electronics out in a cabinet than some providers.
>
> Neither is a wrong answer ultimately, and the customers won't know and
> will be thrilled either way.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Andreas Wiatowski <
> andr...@silowireless.com> wrote:
>
>> Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been
>> struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I
>> understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate
>> growing this area to 600+ subs.  We have multiple villages within 3 km of
>> each other that we will expand to. Why this entire build is exciting is
>> that we already own 70 percent of the market.  Getting these customers on
>> fibre allows those that can't a much better experience as we unload the
>> tower sites and reduces CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting
>> the cabinet beside a carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps
>> tls back to my core where I can expand and provision multiple tls. I can
>> envision using GPon to cost effectively come back to that centralized
>> cabinet and remove the power requirements and maintain a single cabinet.  I
>> understand active gives me cheap fast full GB to the home,  but my guess is
>> that consumers will be happy with a 25 Mbps experience or better. I think
>> that the gpon solution is upgradeable enough... Yes,  you have to change
>> out cards and ONT,  but that is a business decision when the time comes.
>>
>> I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research
>> to do with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms
>> systems and capabilities.
>>
>> Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back
>> to the centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a
>> group of homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> __
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Chris Fabien 
>> Date: 2016-02-13 7:28 AM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>
>> Josh,
>> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an
>> isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.
>>
>> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be
>> working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size -
>> 50 to 200 homes within

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Darin Steffl]

Gino,

Where is that pricing from? Everywhere I've found is higher

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:59 AM, Gino Villarini  wrote:

> For such a low user count, ill go with GEPON (vsGPON) We have been
> sucessfully using it in MDU locations.  Planet PizzaBox OLT with 2 GEPON
> Ports is about $1200, ONUS (CPE) about $40
>
> Put 64 in each.. your done
>
> So far, no issues...
>
> http://www.planet.com.tw/en/product/product.php?id=45442
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
>
>> Andreas, the key issue we ran into was PON port utilization. You'll need
>> to very carefully lay out your fiber routes. Our typical service area is
>> rural roads, 5-20 houses per mile. So with PON we were excited at the
>> prospect of being able to place a 1x8 splitter each mile and then a 1x4 at
>> each pedestal (up to 8 peds per mile). This seemed like a great fit and
>> would let us do up to 5 miles of road fed from a single 12F drop cable. The
>> problem is that you end up essentially allocating a PON for each mile and
>> never fully loading it because there's not that many houses on that mile.
>> Since you are starting with a 70% penetration that may help, we typically
>> see 50%-60% only after a couple years in a deployment. These are mostly
>> unserved areas we are deploying, but most customers are suck in contract
>> with someone.
>>
>> I think a "typical" GPON deployment will have a splitter/patch cabinet
>> out in the field where they aggregate several hundred strands from homes to
>> one spot and then install 1x32 splitters in that cabinet as needed. Then
>> you only need 1 fiber per splitter back to you NOC where the OLT lives. So
>> you still need a cabinet somewhere that is susceptible to damage, you still
>> need at least medium size cables coming back to the cabinet, you still need
>> 10s of strands back to the NOC. It just made more sense to me to make that
>> an active cabinet. Maybe as a WISP guy I'm more comfortable with
>> electronics out in a cabinet than some providers.
>>
>> Neither is a wrong answer ultimately, and the customers won't know and
>> will be thrilled either way.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Andreas Wiatowski <
>> andr...@silowireless.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been
>>> struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I
>>> understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate
>>> growing this area to 600+ subs.  We have multiple villages within 3 km of
>>> each other that we will expand to. Why this entire build is exciting is
>>> that we already own 70 percent of the market.  Getting these customers on
>>> fibre allows those that can't a much better experience as we unload the
>>> tower sites and reduces CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting
>>> the cabinet beside a carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps
>>> tls back to my core where I can expand and provision multiple tls. I can
>>> envision using GPon to cost effectively come back to that centralized
>>> cabinet and remove the power requirements and maintain a single cabinet.  I
>>> understand active gives me cheap fast full GB to the home,  but my guess is
>>> that consumers will be happy with a 25 Mbps experience or better. I think
>>> that the gpon solution is upgradeable enough... Yes,  you have to change
>>> out cards and ONT,  but that is a business decision when the time comes.
>>>
>>> I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research
>>> to do with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms
>>> systems and capabilities.
>>>
>>> Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back
>>> to the centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a
>>> group of homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> __
>>>
>>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>>
>>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>>
>>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>>
>>> 19 Sage Court
>>>
>>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>>
>>> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>>> +1.866.727.4138
>>>
>>>
>>>  Original message 
>>> From: Chris Fabien 
&g

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Gino Villarini]

bizayscom has them at $1600
i can get them for lower
ping me offlist if interested

Sent from Outlook Mobile




On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:09 AM -0800, "Darin Steffl"  
wrote:










Gino,
Where is that pricing from? Everywhere I've found is higher
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:59 AM, Gino Villarini  wrote:
For such a low user count, ill go with GEPON (vsGPON) We have been sucessfully 
using it in MDU locations.  Planet PizzaBox OLT with 2 GEPON Ports is about 
$1200, ONUS (CPE) about $40
Put 64 in each.. your done 
So far, no issues...
http://www.planet.com.tw/en/product/product.php?id=45442




On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
Andreas, the key issue we ran into was PON port utilization. You'll need to 
very carefully lay out your fiber routes. Our typical service area is rural 
roads, 5-20 houses per mile. So with PON we were excited at the prospect of 
being able to place a 1x8 splitter each mile and then a 1x4 at each pedestal 
(up to 8 peds per mile). This seemed like a great fit and would let us do up to 
5 miles of road fed from a single 12F drop cable. The problem is that you end 
up essentially allocating a PON for each mile and never fully loading it 
because there's not that many houses on that mile. Since you are starting with 
a 70% penetration that may help, we typically see 50%-60% only after a couple 
years in a deployment. These are mostly unserved areas we are deploying, but 
most customers are suck in contract with someone. 
I think a "typical" GPON deployment will have a splitter/patch cabinet out in 
the field where they aggregate several hundred strands from homes to one spot 
and then install 1x32 splitters in that cabinet as needed. Then you only need 1 
fiber per splitter back to you NOC where the OLT lives. So you still need a 
cabinet somewhere that is susceptible to damage, you still need at least medium 
size cables coming back to the cabinet, you still need 10s of strands back to 
the NOC. It just made more sense to me to make that an active cabinet. Maybe as 
a WISP guy I'm more comfortable with electronics out in a cabinet than some 
providers. 
Neither is a wrong answer ultimately, and the customers won't know and will be 
thrilled either way. 

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Andreas Wiatowski  
wrote:





Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been 
struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I 
understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate growing 
this area to 600+ subs.  We have
 multiple villages within 3 km of each other that we will expand to. Why this 
entire build is exciting is that we already own 70 percent of the market.  
Getting these customers on fibre allows those that can't a much better 
experience as we unload the tower
 sites and reduces CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting the 
cabinet beside a carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps tls back 
to my core where I can expand and provision multiple tls. I can envision using 
GPon to cost effectively
 come back to that centralized cabinet and remove the power requirements and 
maintain a single cabinet.  I understand active gives me cheap fast full GB to 
the home,  but my guess is that consumers will be happy with a 25 Mbps 
experience or better. I think
 that the gpon solution is upgradeable enough... Yes,  you have to change out 
cards and ONT,  but that is a business decision when the time comes. 



I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research to do 
with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms systems and 
capabilities. 



Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back to the 
centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a group of 
homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both? 



Thanks! 












Cheers,


__


Andreas Wiatowski | CEO


Silo Wireless Inc.


Email  andr...@silowireless.com


19 Sage Court



Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)


Tel 
+1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax 
+1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138







 Original message 
From: Chris Fabien  
Date: 2016-02-13 7:28 AM (GMT-05:00) 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon? 






Josh,

I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an isp 
with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.


That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be 
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size - 50 
to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area. Active 
was the cheapest
 way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.


Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo when 
fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON which

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Chuck McCown]

Don’t overlook the expense and complexity of large splices.  Strand may be 
cheap but splice cases, splicing and handhole and manhole are not cheap.  In a 
dense environment you need PON.  The few power users that need active  can 
still get it as long as each drop goes to a splitter in a cabinet.  

From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 6:13 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had a "pizza 
box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still had all the components 
you could want from the OLT to ONT to a pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW 
platform. Making good money in this business always seems to be about reducing 
truck rolls. AE doesn't provide that much info end to end while GPON and TR069 
seem to be able to drown you in whatever you want to see.  
Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over everywhere that 
really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and maintaining all those spaces 
just makes my head hurt. I don't know what the possibility to turn 110 homes 
into something more are. If designed right you could always migrate it to GPON 
to fold it into a unified management system. The numbers we looked at the ONT 
cost savings started to catch up with active around 75 users I think.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:28 AM Chris Fabien  wrote:

  Josh,
  I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an isp 
with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.

  That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be 
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size - 50 
to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area. Active 
was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.

  Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo when 
fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON which is 
very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which we are in one 
case.

  On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:

Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

Does. Not. Scale.

You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair 
of
> 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in 
a
> weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>
> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 
to 6
> 1U switches.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>>
>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>
>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> chassis.
>>
>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  
wrote:
>> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>> > this.
>> > Very low cost of entry.
>> >
>> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all
>> > the
>> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended 
up
>> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized
>> > if
>> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
>> >
>> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" 

>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> &

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Chuck McCown]

We have multiple 1:32 splitters in each cabinet in our residential areas.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 6:48 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

Andreas, the key issue we ran into was PON port utilization. You'll need to 
very carefully lay out your fiber routes. Our typical service area is rural 
roads, 5-20 houses per mile. So with PON we were excited at the prospect of 
being able to place a 1x8 splitter each mile and then a 1x4 at each pedestal 
(up to 8 peds per mile). This seemed like a great fit and would let us do up to 
5 miles of road fed from a single 12F drop cable. The problem is that you end 
up essentially allocating a PON for each mile and never fully loading it 
because there's not that many houses on that mile. Since you are starting with 
a 70% penetration that may help, we typically see 50%-60% only after a couple 
years in a deployment. These are mostly unserved areas we are deploying, but 
most customers are suck in contract with someone.  

I think a "typical" GPON deployment will have a splitter/patch cabinet out in 
the field where they aggregate several hundred strands from homes to one spot 
and then install 1x32 splitters in that cabinet as needed. Then you only need 1 
fiber per splitter back to you NOC where the OLT lives. So you still need a 
cabinet somewhere that is susceptible to damage, you still need at least medium 
size cables coming back to the cabinet, you still need 10s of strands back to 
the NOC. It just made more sense to me to make that an active cabinet. Maybe as 
a WISP guy I'm more comfortable with electronics out in a cabinet than some 
providers. 

Neither is a wrong answer ultimately, and the customers won't know and will be 
thrilled either way. 


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Andreas Wiatowski  
wrote:

  Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been 
struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I 
understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate growing 
this area to 600+ subs.  We have multiple villages within 3 km of each other 
that we will expand to. Why this entire build is exciting is that we already 
own 70 percent of the market.  Getting these customers on fibre allows those 
that can't a much better experience as we unload the tower sites and reduces 
CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting the cabinet beside a 
carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps tls back to my core where I 
can expand and provision multiple tls. I can envision using GPon to cost 
effectively come back to that centralized cabinet and remove the power 
requirements and maintain a single cabinet.  I understand active gives me cheap 
fast full GB to the home,  but my guess is that consumers will be happy with a 
25 Mbps experience or better. I think that the gpon solution is upgradeable 
enough... Yes,  you have to change out cards and ONT,  but that is a business 
decision when the time comes. 

  I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research to 
do with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms systems 
and capabilities. 

  Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back to 
the centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a group of 
homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both? 

  Thanks! 



  Cheers,

  __

  Andreas Wiatowski | CEO

  Silo Wireless Inc.

  Email  andr...@silowireless.com

  19 Sage Court

  Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)

  Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free 
+1.866.727.4138



   Original message 
  From: Chris Fabien  
  Date: 2016-02-13 7:28 AM (GMT-05:00) 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon? 

  Josh,
  I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an isp 
with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.

  That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be 
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size - 50 
to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area. Active 
was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.

  Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo when 
fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON which is 
very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which we are in one 
case.

  On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:

Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

Does. Not. Scale.

You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
   

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

In each cabinet? Please say you mean ped? :)

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> We have multiple 1:32 splitters in each cabinet in our residential areas.
>
> From: Chris Fabien
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 6:48 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
> Andreas, the key issue we ran into was PON port utilization. You'll need to
> very carefully lay out your fiber routes. Our typical service area is rural
> roads, 5-20 houses per mile. So with PON we were excited at the prospect of
> being able to place a 1x8 splitter each mile and then a 1x4 at each pedestal
> (up to 8 peds per mile). This seemed like a great fit and would let us do up
> to 5 miles of road fed from a single 12F drop cable. The problem is that you
> end up essentially allocating a PON for each mile and never fully loading it
> because there's not that many houses on that mile. Since you are starting
> with a 70% penetration that may help, we typically see 50%-60% only after a
> couple years in a deployment. These are mostly unserved areas we are
> deploying, but most customers are suck in contract with someone.
>
> I think a "typical" GPON deployment will have a splitter/patch cabinet out
> in the field where they aggregate several hundred strands from homes to one
> spot and then install 1x32 splitters in that cabinet as needed. Then you
> only need 1 fiber per splitter back to you NOC where the OLT lives. So you
> still need a cabinet somewhere that is susceptible to damage, you still need
> at least medium size cables coming back to the cabinet, you still need 10s
> of strands back to the NOC. It just made more sense to me to make that an
> active cabinet. Maybe as a WISP guy I'm more comfortable with electronics
> out in a cabinet than some providers.
>
> Neither is a wrong answer ultimately, and the customers won't know and will
> be thrilled either way.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Andreas Wiatowski
>  wrote:
>>
>> Firstly,  thankyou everyone for this amazing discussion.   I have been
>> struggling to decide which direction to choose for quite some time.  I
>> understand the merits of each technology, realistically  we anticipate
>> growing this area to 600+ subs.  We have multiple villages within 3 km of
>> each other that we will expand to. Why this entire build is exciting is that
>> we already own 70 percent of the market.  Getting these customers on fibre
>> allows those that can't a much better experience as we unload the tower
>> sites and reduces CAPEX on those existing assets.  We will be putting the
>> cabinet beside a carrier fiber cabinet where I will purchase a 1Gbps tls
>> back to my core where I can expand and provision multiple tls. I can
>> envision using GPon to cost effectively come back to that centralized
>> cabinet and remove the power requirements and maintain a single cabinet.  I
>> understand active gives me cheap fast full GB to the home,  but my guess is
>> that consumers will be happy with a 25 Mbps experience or better. I think
>> that the gpon solution is upgradeable enough... Yes,  you have to change out
>> cards and ONT,  but that is a business decision when the time comes.
>>
>> I may just do active on this project as I have a lot of pricing research
>> to do with the GPon vendors mentioned and their technology road map,  nms
>> systems and capabilities.
>>
>> Wondering,  do some GPon deployments bring a strand from each house back
>> to the centralized box into the splitter,  or the splitter located near a
>> group of homes and strands run to it? Or a variety of both?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> __
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>>
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Chris Fabien 
>> Date: 2016-02-13 7:28 AM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>
>>
>> Josh,
>> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an
>> isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.
>>
>> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be
>> working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size -
>> 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabin

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Paul Stewart]

That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear :(… why not Calix/Adtran etc?  
Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind of stuff… 

 

Paul

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

 

What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had a "pizza 
box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still had all the components 
you could want from the OLT to ONT to a pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW 
platform. Making good money in this business always seems to be about reducing 
truck rolls. AE doesn't provide that much info end to end while GPON and TR069 
seem to be able to drown you in whatever you want to see. 

Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over everywhere that 
really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and maintaining all those spaces 
just makes my head hurt. I don't know what the possibility to turn 110 homes 
into something more are. If designed right you could always migrate it to GPON 
to fold it into a unified management system. The numbers we looked at the ONT 
cost savings started to catch up with active around 75 users I think.

 

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:28 AM Chris Fabien mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com> > wrote:

Josh,
I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an isp 
with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.

That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be 
working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size - 50 
to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area. Active 
was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.

Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo when 
fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON which is 
very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which we are in one 
case.

On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds" mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com> > wrote:

Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

Does. Not. Scale.

You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com> > wrote:

> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair of
> 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in a
> weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>
> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 to 6
> 1U switches.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  <mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com> > wrote:
>>
>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>
>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> chassis.
>>
>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien > <mailto:ch...@lakenetmi.com> > wrote:
>> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>> > this.
>> > Very low cost of entry.
>> >
>> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing all
>> > the
>> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended up
>> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully utilized
>> > if
>> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
>> >
>> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" > > <mailto:andr...@silowireless.com> >
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>> 

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Paul Stewart]

It's also a matter of experience in the field - I mean this in general, not in 
direct response...

What I mean is ... I've seen/used "cheap GPON gear" ... some of it had no 
english lettering on it.  Complete shit - high failure rates, buggy software, 
support that didn't exist ...   even names like Zhone get dropped and the first 
thing people say is "wow, that stuff is so cheap!" and then you actually talk 
to the technical people who have to troubleshoot issues, do interop testing 
with Metaswitch or other voice platforms, try and push multicast video through 
it for IPTV and everything starts to go to hell ... 

Then Calix, Adtran etc gear ... pretty good stuff, limited bugs, and support 
that is pretty solid.

My experience to date...  obviously as mentioned everyone has a different 
need/want/budget ...

Paul


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:53 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

The cost is stupid. I know some of the other platforms don't have all of the 
same bells and whistles, but if you're still able to do the same features to 
end users, they don't know and won't care.

You also said something very, very important. "They are the biggest gpon vendor 
*in the US*". Calix made a very important acquisition a few years back when 
they bought Occam, which was a smart move.

Some people buy PMP4xx. Some people buy UBNT (and more units are sold).

Some people buy Calix. Some people buy Huawei, or $vendor (and more units are 
sold).

All have their places.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:37 PM, Craig Schmaderer  
wrote:
> If you are thinking about GPON, I would totally go with Calix.  They 
> are the biggest gpon vendor in the US, and they have a tone of new 
> onts that came out.  Indoor units with just Ethernet, or built in ac 
> routers.  Their stuff is the bomb.
>
>
>
> Craig R. Schmaderer
>
> CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc.
>
> Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058
>
> Direct: 402-372-1052
>
>
>
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Wiatowski
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:31 PM
>
>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
>
>
> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider?
> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option... 
> But much more expensive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> __
>
> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>
> Silo Wireless Inc.
>
> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>
> 19 Sage Court
>
> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>
> Tel +1.519.449.5656  Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
> +1.866.727.4138
>
>  Original message 
>
> From: Josh Reynolds 
>
> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
>
>
> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active 
> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the  
> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand 
> as your existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move 
> the split over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>
> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>
> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?  
> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or active.
>
> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi 
> optics) gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light 
> path and cable plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a 
> dedicated light path from each powered network node to the customer 
> you could upgrade to active-E 10, then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes 
> we will see customers with 10GbE optics in the next ten years. And 
> maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll be cheap and easy to connect 
> each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK 100GbE optic at each end.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting against 
> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is just...
> dumb, to be honest (IMO).
>
> The size of your backbone ends up being monstrous with active, as well 
> as having to keep the cabinets powered, UPS+batteries, enclosurers 
> maintained, etc. PON is simply so much cheaper are scale, and in 
> residential every dollar counts.
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>> I did forget to mention that I'm firmly on th

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Paul Stewart]

Andreas – are you talking about Active ONT or Active Ethernet?

 

Just Internet across it or other services?  Ie. Voice, Video etc (by Voice, I 
mean providing POTS services via fiber)

 

Personally – much prefer Calix .. let me know if you need a contact here in 
Ontario…

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Wiatowski
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 7:53 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

 

Hi all, 

 

Looking to do my first ftth for about 110 homes.  

If I do active,  what switch platform would you use for sfp in cabinet and in 
home router/cabinet.

 

If GPon,  what vendor would you choose that is cost effective/reliable

 

I understand the full limitations of GPon.. But I feel it is an attractive 
proposition compared to active... And the few systems I have seen have a road 
map to faster olt access. 

 

Cheers,

__

Andreas Wiatowski | CEO

Silo Wireless Inc.

Email   <mailto:andr...@silowireless.com> andr...@silowireless.com

  19 Sage 
Court

Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 
  (CANADA)

Tel +1.519.449.5656Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 
  |Toll Free +1.866.727.4138  

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Josh Reynolds]

You're absolutely right...

For clarification, what I mean by that is experienced network
operators know the process. Feature testing, budgeting, support test,
lab interop, etc - all to meet the budget for the business use case.

No vendor should be immune to this methodology, and best is often the
enemy of good.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Paul Stewart  wrote:
> It's also a matter of experience in the field - I mean this in general, not 
> in direct response...
>
> What I mean is ... I've seen/used "cheap GPON gear" ... some of it had no 
> english lettering on it.  Complete shit - high failure rates, buggy software, 
> support that didn't exist ...   even names like Zhone get dropped and the 
> first thing people say is "wow, that stuff is so cheap!" and then you 
> actually talk to the technical people who have to troubleshoot issues, do 
> interop testing with Metaswitch or other voice platforms, try and push 
> multicast video through it for IPTV and everything starts to go to hell ...
>
> Then Calix, Adtran etc gear ... pretty good stuff, limited bugs, and support 
> that is pretty solid.
>
> My experience to date...  obviously as mentioned everyone has a different 
> need/want/budget ...
>
> Paul
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:53 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
> The cost is stupid. I know some of the other platforms don't have all of the 
> same bells and whistles, but if you're still able to do the same features to 
> end users, they don't know and won't care.
>
> You also said something very, very important. "They are the biggest gpon 
> vendor *in the US*". Calix made a very important acquisition a few years back 
> when they bought Occam, which was a smart move.
>
> Some people buy PMP4xx. Some people buy UBNT (and more units are sold).
>
> Some people buy Calix. Some people buy Huawei, or $vendor (and more units are 
> sold).
>
> All have their places.
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:37 PM, Craig Schmaderer  
> wrote:
>> If you are thinking about GPON, I would totally go with Calix.  They
>> are the biggest gpon vendor in the US, and they have a tone of new
>> onts that came out.  Indoor units with just Ethernet, or built in ac
>> routers.  Their stuff is the bomb.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig R. Schmaderer
>>
>> CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc.
>>
>> Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058
>>
>> Direct: 402-372-1052
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Wiatowski
>> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:31 PM
>>
>>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>
>>
>>
>> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you consider?
>> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good option...
>> But much more expensive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> ______________
>>
>> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>
>> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>
>> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>
>> 19 Sage Court
>>
>> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>
>> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>> +1.866.727.4138
>>
>>  Original message 
>>
>> From: Josh Reynolds 
>>
>> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>
>>
>>
>> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still active
>> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of the
>> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber strand
>> as your existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move
>> the split over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>>
>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping now?
>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between GPON or active.
>>
>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi
>> optics) gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light
>> path and cable plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a
>> dedicated light path from each powered network node to the customer
>> you could upgrade to active-E 10, then 40, then 100Gbps someda

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

If you're leasing per strand you don't even need two, use single strand
10GbE BiDi optics (1490/1550). Fiberstore has them for reasonable prices.

Or keep both strands and use bidi optics on both in parallel to achieve 20
Gbps in a 802.3ad, without the need to install a 1U passive prism cwdm 2 or
4 channel mux/demux.
On Feb 13, 2016 4:28 AM, "Chris Fabien"  wrote:

> Josh,
> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an
> isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.
>
> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be
> working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size -
> 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area.
> Active was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each
> home.
>
> Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo
> when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON
> which is very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which
> we are in one case.
> On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>
>> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
>> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.
>>
>> Does. Not. Scale.
>>
>> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.
>>
>> This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
>> not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
>> several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
>> rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
>> SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
>> batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
>> Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
>> about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
>> 22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>> > That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and
>> not
>> > distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a
>> pair of
>> > 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS,
>> in a
>> > weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>> >
>> > Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1
>> to 6
>> > 1U switches.
>> >
>> > On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>> >> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>> >> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>> >>
>> >> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>> >> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>> >> chassis.
>> >>
>> >> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien 
>> wrote:
>> >> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
>> >> > this.
>> >> > Very low cost of entry.
>> >> >
>> >> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing
>> all
>> >> > the
>> >> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we
>> ended up
>> >> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully
>> utilized
>> >> > if
>> >> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" <
>> andr...@silowireless.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>> >> >> consider?
>> >> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good
>> option...
>> >> >> But
>> >> >> much more expensive.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> __
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>> >> >&g

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Kuhnke]

Especially for small projects like
>>> >> > this.
>>> >> > Very low cost of entry.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing
>>> all
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we
>>> ended up
>>> >> > with a bunch of money wasted on PONs that would never be fully
>>> utilized
>>> >> > if
>>> >> > we did splitting closer to the customer.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Feb 12, 2016 10:30 PM, "Andreas Wiatowski" <
>>> andr...@silowireless.com>
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> So,  I understand the benefits of GPon ... What brand would you
>>> >> >> consider?
>>> >> >> ... I have been looking at Alphion. Huawei seems like a good
>>> option...
>>> >> >> But
>>> >> >> much more expensive.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Cheers,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> __
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Andreas Wiatowski | CEO
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Silo Wireless Inc.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Email  andr...@silowireless.com
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> 19 Sage Court
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Brantford, Ontario N3R 7T4 (CANADA)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Tel +1.519.449.5656 Extension-600|Fax +1.519.449.5536 |Toll Free
>>> >> >> +1.866.727.4138
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>  Original message 
>>> >> >> From: Josh Reynolds 
>>> >> >> Date: 2016-02-12 10:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>> >> >> To: af@afmug.com
>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> You realize the transport core to the gpon OLT chassis is still
>>> active
>>> >> >> fiber in many designs, right? I also am unsure if you are aware of
>>> the
>>> >> >> upgrade process to NG-PON2 - you can run it on the same fiber
>>> strand as
>>> >> >> your
>>> >> >> existing PON split. Add the new card into the chassis and move the
>>> >> >> split
>>> >> >> over to the new SFP. Upgrade the customers at your leisure.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Feb 12, 2016 9:13 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" 
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Key part there is, is going to be...  is it available or shipping
>>> now?
>>> >> >>> If somebody wants to start a build now, the choice is between
>>> GPON or
>>> >> >>> active.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Having an active fiber path, even with just one strand (for BiDi
>>> >> >>> optics)
>>> >> >>> gives you a nearly infinite lifespan of the installed light path
>>> and
>>> >> >>> cable
>>> >> >>> plant, if things are maintained correctly. With a dedicated light
>>> path
>>> >> >>> from
>>> >> >>> each powered network node to the customer you could upgrade to
>>> >> >>> active-E 10,
>>> >> >>> then 40, then 100Gbps someday.  Yes we will see customers with
>>> 10GbE
>>> >> >>> optics
>>> >> >>> in the next ten years. And maybe in 20 or 30 years from now it'll
>>> be
>>> >> >>> cheap
>>> >> >>> and easy to connect each customer with an SFP-sized coherent QPSK
>>> >> >>> 100GbE
>>> >> >>> optic at each end.
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Josh Reynolds <
>>> j...@kyneticwifi.com>
>>> >> >>> wrote:
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> 10-40Gbps on NG-PON2 is going to be the real deal, and betting
>>> >> >>>> against
>>> >> >>>> it vs active ethernet at scale for residential service is

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Lewis Bergman]

I believe because the focus was on cost.

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016, 2:01 PM Paul Stewart  wrote:

> That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear L… why not Calix/Adtran etc?
> Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind of stuff…
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
>
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?
>
>
>
> What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had a
> "pizza box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still had all the
> components you could want from the OLT to ONT to a pretty inexpensive TR069
> management SW platform. Making good money in this business always seems to
> be about reducing truck rolls. AE doesn't provide that much info end to end
> while GPON and TR069 seem to be able to drown you in whatever you want to
> see.
>
> Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over everywhere
> that really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and maintaining all
> those spaces just makes my head hurt. I don't know what the possibility to
> turn 110 homes into something more are. If designed right you could always
> migrate it to GPON to fold it into a unified management system. The numbers
> we looked at the ONT cost savings started to catch up with active around 75
> users I think.
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:28 AM Chris Fabien  wrote:
>
> Josh,
> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution for an
> isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 110.
>
> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely to be
> working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of that size -
> 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet in a remote area.
> Active was the cheapest way for me to do that and supports 1gig to each
> home.
>
> Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about $30/mo
> when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead of 9 with PON
> which is very significant if you happen to be leasing those strands, which
> we are in one case.
>
> On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>
> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.
>
> Does. Not. Scale.
>
> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.
>
> This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
> not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
> several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
> rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
> SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
> batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
> Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
> about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
> 22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.
>
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
> > That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
> > distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair
> of
> > 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS,
> in a
> > weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
> >
> > Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1
> to 6
> > 1U switches.
> >
> > On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
> >>
> >> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
> >> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
> >> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
> >>
> >> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
> >> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
> >> chassis.
> >>
> >> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien 
> wrote:
> >> > I am also a proponent  of active. Especially for small projects like
> >> > this.
> >> > Very low cost of entry.
> >> >
> >> > We looked at gpon including Alphion and ended up with still needing
> all
> >> > the
> >> > strands home run to the cabinet to fully load up each PON or we ended
> up
> >> > with 

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Paul,

What's wrong with zhone?  Running 1800+ GPON customers on them with no
issues.

-- 
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Saturday, February 13, 2016, 3:01:09 PM, you wrote:

PS> That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear Lￜ why not
PS> Calix/Adtran etc?ￜ Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind of
PS> stuffￜ 

PS> ￜ

PS> Paul

PS> ￜ

PS> ￜ

PS> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
PS> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
PS> To: af@afmug.com
PS> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS> ￜ

PS> What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them
PS> they had a "pizza box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet
PS> they still had all the components you could want from the OLT to
PS> ONT to a pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW platform. Making
PS> good money in this business always seems to be about reducing
PS> truck rolls. AE doesn't provide that much info end to end while
PS> GPON and TR069 seem to be able to drown you in whatever you want
PS> to see.ￜ

PS> Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over
PS> everywhere that really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and
PS> maintaining all those spaces just makes my head hurt. I don't know
PS> what the possibility to turn 110 homes into something more are. If
PS> designed right you could always migrate it to GPON to fold it into
PS> a unified management system. The numbers we looked at the ONT cost
PS> savings started to catch up with active around 75 users I think.



PS> ￜ

PS> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:28 AM Chris Fabien  wrote:


PS> Josh,
PS> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right
PS> solution for an isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas
PS> asked about 110.

PS> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are
PS> likely to be working on. Our fiber network is currently several
PS> projects of that size - 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a
PS> powered cabinet in a remote area. Active was the cheapest way for
PS> me to do that and supports 1gig to each home.

PS> Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be
PS> about $30/mo when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC
PS> instead of 9 with PON which is very significant if you happen to
PS> be leasing those strands, which we are in one case.

PS> On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:


PS> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power
PS> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

PS> Does. Not. Scale.

PS> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

PS> This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and
PS> not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is
PS> several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were
PS> rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 million
PS> SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, large
PS> batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
PS> Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking
PS> about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. from
PS> 22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

PS> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:




>> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and not
>> distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with a pair of
>> 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a beefy UPS, in a
>> weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>>
>> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 1 to 6
>> 1U switches.
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2016 7:47 PM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:
>>>
>>> If you're doing a super small project, no more than a hundred or two
>>> hundred customers in an area, then it can make sense. There comes to
>>> be a point where the port cost of active does NOT scale.
>>>
>>> 1024 subs on GPON with a modest 32 way split is done with 32 GPON
>>> SFPs, 32 ports, 32 way split per GPON SFP. 2 line cards in a 2U
>>> chassis.
>>>
>>> On active, that's 1024 active ports and SFPs. That's insane.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Chris Fabien  wrote:
>>> > I am also a proponentￜ of ac

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Paul Stewart]

I have limited experience with them personally to be honest .. however, I
have seen many providers rip them out in favor of other competing gear
especially in the DSLAM space.  I have heard from several folks that that
their PON equipment has matured a better with less issues ...

Many folks that I dealt with ripped out Zhone in favor of Calix primarily
 

When I ask some folks on my team what they liked/disliked about Zhone (who
were working at other providers at the time where they used it heavily),
their comment is "f**k**g **it"  stability issues with software is the
first thing I hear.

When I was running a consulting company, I came across them often and
generally never heard much positive (again, primarily DSLAM) other than
folks liked them because of price I was just on a call a couple of weeks
ago with a KY/TN provider who has Zhone deployed for many years - they are
investing zero additional into Zhone and moving to Calix ... similar
comments that on the DSLAM side they had a lot of grief - on the PON side
they had "less grief".

So definitely my comment is less from hands on so much but from having heard
negative feedback for many years from many providers .. glad to hear your
experience with them to date has been solid it sounds like.. 

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:07 PM
To: Paul Stewart 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

Paul,

What's wrong with zhone?  Running 1800+ GPON customers on them with no
issues.

--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Saturday, February 13, 2016, 3:01:09 PM, you wrote:

PS> That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear Lￜ why not 
PS> Calix/Adtran etc?ￜ Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind of 
PS> stuffￜ

PS> ￜ

PS> Paul

PS> ￜ

PS> ￜ

PS> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
PS> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
PS> To: af@afmug.com
PS> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS> ￜ

PS> What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had 
PS> a "pizza box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still 
PS> had all the components you could want from the OLT to ONT to a 
PS> pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW platform. Making good money 
PS> in this business always seems to be about reducing truck rolls. AE 
PS> doesn't provide that much info end to end while GPON and TR069 seem 
PS> to be able to drown you in whatever you want to see.ￜ

PS> Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over 
PS> everywhere that really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and 
PS> maintaining all those spaces just makes my head hurt. I don't know 
PS> what the possibility to turn 110 homes into something more are. If 
PS> designed right you could always migrate it to GPON to fold it into a 
PS> unified management system. The numbers we looked at the ONT cost 
PS> savings started to catch up with active around 75 users I think.



PS> ￜ

PS> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:28 AM Chris Fabien 
wrote:


PS> Josh,
PS> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution 
PS> for an isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 
PS> 110.

PS> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely 
PS> to be working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of 
PS> that size - 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet 
PS> in a remote area. Active was the cheapest way for me to do that and 
PS> supports 1gig to each home.

PS> Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about 
PS> $30/mo when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead 
PS> of 9 with PON which is very significant if you happen to be leasing 
PS> those strands, which we are in one case.

PS> On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:


PS> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power 
PS> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

PS> Does. Not. Scale.

PS> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

PS> This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and 
PS> not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is 
PS> several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were 
PS> rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 
PS> million SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, 
PS> large batterie

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Eric Rogers]

I can personally attest that our bench deployment took nearly 4 months for 
their support department to even help with configuration.  I finally sat down 
and played with it until I got a working configuration.  To this day, they 
still have not closed the ticket...

Their support is one of the worst I have seen...

The equipment seems very stable on the other hand, just don't want to count on 
production support from them.

Eric Rogers
PDS Connect
www.pdsconnect.me
(317) 831-3000 x200


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:07 PM
To: Paul Stewart
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

Paul,

What's wrong with zhone?  Running 1800+ GPON customers on them with no issues.

--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Saturday, February 13, 2016, 3:01:09 PM, you wrote:

PS> That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear Lￜ why not 
PS> Calix/Adtran etc?ￜ Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind of 
PS> stuffￜ

PS> ￜ

PS> Paul

PS> ￜ

PS> ￜ

PS> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
PS> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
PS> To: af@afmug.com
PS> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS> ￜ

PS> What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had 
PS> a "pizza box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still 
PS> had all the components you could want from the OLT to ONT to a 
PS> pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW platform. Making good money 
PS> in this business always seems to be about reducing truck rolls. AE 
PS> doesn't provide that much info end to end while GPON and TR069 seem 
PS> to be able to drown you in whatever you want to see.ￜ

PS> Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over 
PS> everywhere that really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and 
PS> maintaining all those spaces just makes my head hurt. I don't know 
PS> what the possibility to turn 110 homes into something more are. If 
PS> designed right you could always migrate it to GPON to fold it into a 
PS> unified management system. The numbers we looked at the ONT cost 
PS> savings started to catch up with active around 75 users I think.



PS> ￜ

PS> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:28 AM Chris Fabien  wrote:


PS> Josh,
PS> I don't think anyone is disputing that gpon is the right solution 
PS> for an isp with 1000s or millions of users. But Andreas asked about 
PS> 110.

PS> That size of project is something I think a lot of WISP are likely 
PS> to be working on. Our fiber network is currently several projects of 
PS> that size - 50 to 200 homes within a few miles of a powered cabinet 
PS> in a remote area. Active was the cheapest way for me to do that and 
PS> supports 1gig to each home.

PS> Power for a 20u cabinet ( 288 ports in our design) will be about 
PS> $30/mo when fully loaded. And just 2 strands back to our NOC instead 
PS> of 9 with PON which is very significant if you happen to be leasing 
PS> those strands, which we are in one case.

PS> On Feb 13, 2016 4:48 AM, "Josh Reynolds"  wrote:


PS> Eric it doesn't matter. That's 1024 strands, 1024 SFPs, more power 
PS> usage, more cooling, in multiple bigass cabinets.

PS> Does. Not. Scale.

PS> You take that into a dense suburb and that's what you end up with.

PS> This is precisely why every decent ISP of size is deploying GPON and 
PS> not "active" fiber. The costs to get up _and_ maintain active is 
PS> several magnitudes higher. Let's say you were comcast and you were 
PS> rolling this out to your 22 million users on active. That's 22 
PS> million SFPs, 22 million ports, an asston of strands, huge cabinets, 
PS> large batteries that have to get changed out every few years, HVAC, etc.
PS> Even on a relatively common GPON deployment (32 way), you're talking 
PS> about a 32x reduction in port count, sfps, strands to pops, etc. 
PS> from 22million ports to 687k. That's nothing to sneeze at.

PS> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:




>> That's assuming all 1024 active ports are in one central location and 
>> not distributed around, like 96 ports in one place, accomplished with 
>> a pair of 48-port 1u switches (fed on a 10Gbps ring) accompanied by a 
>> beefy UPS, in a weatherproof ventilated 16U cabinet.
>>
>> Multiply by location of several network nodes each with anywhere from 
>> 1 to 6 1U switches.
>>
>> On Feb 12,

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Paul,

We heard the same thing about the DSLAM stuff also, but being we were
not using DSLAM we figured to give it a try.  We started our project
right after the Calix/Occam merger and it was very evident in their
pricing and attitude that they felt they have full control of the
market.

Another major factor for us, was the Zhone plant in Florida where they
make the outdoor units and do R&D is only about a 60 minute drive
from us.

As for support, we are on a paid support contract with them.  I will
usually get a call back within 15 minutes.

I'm not saying they are perfect and there are no issues with the
system.  But when something comes up they will get to the bottom of it
quickly.  We did have a major issue with them on some install
procedure stuff early in the project and they were very stand up about
it and made it right.

As I said we have 1800+ users on it now with no issues.  Getting ready
to install another head end unit to serve a new location with about 350
customers.  Didn't even hesitate going with them.

-- 
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Tuesday, February 16, 2016, 8:05:31 AM, you wrote:

PS> I have limited experience with them personally to be honest .. however, I
PS> have seen many providers rip them out in favor of other competing gear
PS> especially in the DSLAM space.  I have heard from several folks that that
PS> their PON equipment has matured a better with less issues ...

PS> Many folks that I dealt with ripped out Zhone in favor of Calix primarily
PS>  

PS> When I ask some folks on my team what they liked/disliked about Zhone (who
PS> were working at other providers at the time where they used it heavily),
PS> their comment is "f**k**g **it"  stability issues with software is the
PS> first thing I hear.

PS> When I was running a consulting company, I came across them often and
PS> generally never heard much positive (again, primarily DSLAM) other than
PS> folks liked them because of price I was just on a call a couple of weeks
PS> ago with a KY/TN provider who has Zhone deployed for many years - they are
PS> investing zero additional into Zhone and moving to Calix ... similar
PS> comments that on the DSLAM side they had a lot of grief - on the PON side
PS> they had "less grief".

PS> So definitely my comment is less from hands on so much but from having heard
PS> negative feedback for many years from many providers .. glad to hear your
PS> experience with them to date has been solid it sounds like.. 

PS> -Original Message-
PS> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
PS> Technologies
PS> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:07 PM
PS> To: Paul Stewart 
PS> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS> Paul,

PS> What's wrong with zhone?  Running 1800+ GPON customers on them with no
PS> issues.

PS> --
PS> Best regards,
PS>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

PS> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
PS> www.MyakkaTech.com

PS> Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
PS> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

PS> Please Donate at Please Donate at
PS> http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
PS> --

PS> Saturday, February 13, 2016, 3:01:09 PM, you wrote:

PS>> That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear Lￜ why not 
PS>> Calix/Adtran etc?ￜ Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind of
PS>> stuffￜ

PS>> ￜ

PS>> Paul

PS>> ￜ

PS>> ￜ

PS>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
PS>> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
PS>> To: af@afmug.com
PS>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS>> ￜ

PS>> What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had
PS>> a "pizza box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still
PS>> had all the components you could want from the OLT to ONT to a 
PS>> pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW platform. Making good money
PS>> in this business always seems to be about reducing truck rolls. AE
PS>> doesn't provide that much info end to end while GPON and TR069 seem
PS>> to be able to drown you in whatever you want to see.ￜ

PS>> Like others have said, to me it is the cabinets spread over 
PS>> everywhere that really turns me off. Negotiating, paying for, and
PS>> maintaining all those spaces just makes my head hurt. I don't know
PS>> what the possibility to turn 110 homes into something more are. If
PS>> designed right you could always migrate it to GPON to fold it

Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

[Paul Stewart]

Thanks Mark for all the feedback ... appreciate the details ... 

Paul


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
Technologies
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:42 AM
To: Paul Stewart 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

Paul,

We heard the same thing about the DSLAM stuff also, but being we were not
using DSLAM we figured to give it a try.  We started our project right after
the Calix/Occam merger and it was very evident in their pricing and attitude
that they felt they have full control of the market.

Another major factor for us, was the Zhone plant in Florida where they make
the outdoor units and do R&D is only about a 60 minute drive from us.

As for support, we are on a paid support contract with them.  I will usually
get a call back within 15 minutes.

I'm not saying they are perfect and there are no issues with the system.
But when something comes up they will get to the bottom of it quickly.  We
did have a major issue with them on some install procedure stuff early in
the project and they were very stand up about it and made it right.

As I said we have 1800+ users on it now with no issues.  Getting ready to
install another head end unit to serve a new location with about 350
customers.  Didn't even hesitate going with them.

--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Tuesday, February 16, 2016, 8:05:31 AM, you wrote:

PS> I have limited experience with them personally to be honest ..
however, I
PS> have seen many providers rip them out in favor of other competing 
PS> gear especially in the DSLAM space.  I have heard from several folks 
PS> that
that
PS> their PON equipment has matured a better with less issues ...

PS> Many folks that I dealt with ripped out Zhone in favor of Calix
primarily
PS> 

PS> When I ask some folks on my team what they liked/disliked about 
PS> Zhone
(who
PS> were working at other providers at the time where they used it
heavily),
PS> their comment is "f**k**g **it"  stability issues with software 
PS> is
the
PS> first thing I hear.

PS> When I was running a consulting company, I came across them often 
PS> and generally never heard much positive (again, primarily DSLAM) 
PS> other
than
PS> folks liked them because of price I was just on a call a couple 
PS> of
weeks
PS> ago with a KY/TN provider who has Zhone deployed for many years - 
PS> they
are
PS> investing zero additional into Zhone and moving to Calix ... similar 
PS> comments that on the DSLAM side they had a lot of grief - on the PON
side
PS> they had "less grief".

PS> So definitely my comment is less from hands on so much but from 
PS> having
heard
PS> negative feedback for many years from many providers .. glad to hear
your
PS> experience with them to date has been solid it sounds like..

PS> -Original Message-
PS> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
PS> Technologies
PS> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:07 PM
PS> To: Paul Stewart 
PS> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS> Paul,

PS> What's wrong with zhone?  Running 1800+ GPON customers on them with 
PS> no issues.

PS> --
PS> Best regards,
PS>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

PS> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
PS> www.MyakkaTech.com

PS> Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
PS> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

PS> Please Donate at Please Donate at
PS> http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
PS> --

PS> Saturday, February 13, 2016, 3:01:09 PM, you wrote:

PS>> That assumes you want to work on Zhone gear Lￜ why not 
PS>> Calix/Adtran etc?ￜ Personally I much prefer Calix for that kind 
PS>> of stuffￜ

PS>> ￜ

PS>> Paul

PS>> ￜ

PS>> ￜ

PS>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
PS>> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:14 AM
PS>> To: af@afmug.com
PS>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Active or GPon?

PS>> ￜ

PS>> What about somebody like Zhone? Last time I evaluated them they had 
PS>> a "pizza box" GPON you could get into pretty cheap yet they still 
PS>> had all the components you could want from the OLT to ONT to a 
PS>> pretty inexpensive TR069 management SW platform. Making good money 
PS>> in this business always seems to be about reducing truck rolls. AE 
PS>> doesn't provide that much info end to end while GPON and TR069 seem 
PS>> to be able to drown you in whatever you want to see.ￜ

PS>> Like others have said, to me i