subject:"\[AFMUG\] ObamaCare"

The big mistake of the public was that Obamacare was about bringing down health 
costs.  That was a complete lie.  Obamacare was a wealth transfer from the rich 
to the poor.  Then it was burdened by the political correctness bug making 
everyone pay for every service everyone else needed such as pregnancy coverage 
for 60 year old women.  Throw in the corruption and inefficiency of any 
government program, and there was no way it was going to be cheaper.What 
they thought was that they could squeeze doctors and hospitals even further on 
costs than Medicare and Medicaid already had.  What they ended up with is 50% 
of the hospitals not taking it and some of them going out of business, doctors 
leaving the profession in droves, and small  practices having to be bought up 
by bigger practices or simply go out of business.  The problem was that 
Obamacare never covered the malpractice costs and subsequent insurance costs 
which are really driving medical care costs up along with the uninsured and 
illegal alien population burdening the hospitals with uncollectible debt.  

 

The consequences of Obamacare have been far more devastating short term and 
long term than anyone ever thought of (Dodd—Frank and U.S. tax policy comes 
into play here also).  Small businesses stopped hiring and modified their 
workforces by letting go full-time employees and moving them to part-time.   
This has resulted in 75% of all new jobs being part time instead of full time 
which means that those workers are now on Obamacare if anything.  These aren’t 
the people subsidizing everyone else.

 

Businesses kept workforces at 50 employees, started hiring more contractors, or 
simply let people go to avoid being forced into buying health care.  Even 
worse, with the costs of health care going up, companies are dropping what 
health care they had and letting those employees move to Obamacare or cutting 
the health care insurance that they had back.

 

And everyone keeps touting the “great” systems of health care in Canada and 
Europe.  Those systems are fine if you have the flu but if you need an MRI, it 
could take  months.  If you have cancer late in life, I suggest your will is 
ready.  It’s easier to get an MRI for your dog.  And when the money runs out in 
a fiscal year for a specific treatment, you wait until the next fiscal year for 
that treatment.  In Europe, they have lottery’s to see the dentist and if you 
don’t get picked, hopefully you get picked the next time.

 

Everyone keeps saying that this was a Republican idea.  It was actually an idea 
by the Heritage Foundation and supported by many Republicans, even Newt 
Gingrich.  That doesn’t mean it was ever a good idea, it just means Republican 
politicians pander to their constituents to stay in office as much as 
Democratic politicians at the taxpayers’ expense. 

 

The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

 

1)  Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing conditions out.

2)  Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

3)  Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive malpractice 
amounts

4)  Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let insurers sell 
all over the country

 

Rory

 

 

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Paul McCall via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:11 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Jeremy,

 

I am glad this worked out well for you financially.  Most people have been very 
unhappy with the effect of this, and in then we ALL pay for any costs that are 
lowered, subsidized etc.   Financially for this country as a whole, today and 
in the future, Obamacare is a disaster.  There is NO free lunch system that 
doesn’t cost everyone the same money, plus bureaucratic and administration 
costs to get the results.  It just doesn’t work that way.  Insurance company 
profits are at an al- time high.  TPA’s profits are at an all-time high.  

 

Glad I’m making decent money doing what I do …   blessed and grateful

 

Paul

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy via Af
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 10:32 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

We pay about the same as we did but our deductible is lower, our out of pocket 
max is lower, and they covered our pregnancy.  We switched during the first 
trimester because we didn't have maternity coverage (no self-insured plans in 
our state had it), and Obamacare made pregnancy not count as a pre-existing 
condition.  It saved us about $7,000-$8,000 this year.  The craziest part is 
that we actually stayed with the same provider, Select Health (IHC).  It was 
just the difference between them providing maternity and not providing 
maternity.  We have been very happy with our Obamacare.

 

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Further the subsidies have been deemed unconstitutional, so they're forcing us

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Glen Waldrop via Af

The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

 

1)  Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing conditions out.

2)  Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

3)  Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive malpractice 
amounts

4)  Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let insurers sell 
all over the country

 

Rory



Well said.





  - Original Message - 
  From: Rory Conaway via Af 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 10:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare


  The big mistake of the public was that Obamacare was about bringing down 
health costs.  That was a complete lie.  Obamacare was a wealth transfer from 
the rich to the poor.  Then it was burdened by the political correctness bug 
making everyone pay for every service everyone else needed such as pregnancy 
coverage for 60 year old women.  Throw in the corruption and inefficiency of 
any government program, and there was no way it was going to be cheaper.
What they thought was that they could squeeze doctors and hospitals even 
further on costs than Medicare and Medicaid already had.  What they ended up 
with is 50% of the hospitals not taking it and some of them going out of 
business, doctors leaving the profession in droves, and small  practices having 
to be bought up by bigger practices or simply go out of business.  The problem 
was that Obamacare never covered the malpractice costs and subsequent insurance 
costs which are really driving medical care costs up along with the uninsured 
and illegal alien population burdening the hospitals with uncollectible debt.  

   

  The consequences of Obamacare have been far more devastating short term and 
long term than anyone ever thought of (Dodd—Frank and U.S. tax policy comes 
into play here also).  Small businesses stopped hiring and modified their 
workforces by letting go full-time employees and moving them to part-time.   
This has resulted in 75% of all new jobs being part time instead of full time 
which means that those workers are now on Obamacare if anything.  These aren’t 
the people subsidizing everyone else.

   

  Businesses kept workforces at 50 employees, started hiring more contractors, 
or simply let people go to avoid being forced into buying health care.  Even 
worse, with the costs of health care going up, companies are dropping what 
health care they had and letting those employees move to Obamacare or cutting 
the health care insurance that they had back.

   

  And everyone keeps touting the “great” systems of health care in Canada and 
Europe.  Those systems are fine if you have the flu but if you need an MRI, it 
could take  months.  If you have cancer late in life, I suggest your will is 
ready.  It’s easier to get an MRI for your dog.  And when the money runs out in 
a fiscal year for a specific treatment, you wait until the next fiscal year for 
that treatment.  In Europe, they have lottery’s to see the dentist and if you 
don’t get picked, hopefully you get picked the next time.

   

  Everyone keeps saying that this was a Republican idea.  It was actually an 
idea by the Heritage Foundation and supported by many Republicans, even Newt 
Gingrich.  That doesn’t mean it was ever a good idea, it just means Republican 
politicians pander to their constituents to stay in office as much as 
Democratic politicians at the taxpayers’ expense. 

   

  The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

   

  1)  Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing conditions 
out.

  2)  Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

  3)  Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive 
malpractice amounts

  4)  Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let insurers 
sell all over the country

   

  Rory

   

   

   

   

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Paul McCall via Af
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:11 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

   

  Jeremy,

   

  I am glad this worked out well for you financially.  Most people have been 
very unhappy with the effect of this, and in then we ALL pay for any costs that 
are lowered, subsidized etc.   Financially for this country as a whole, today 
and in the future, Obamacare is a disaster.  There is NO free lunch system that 
doesn’t cost everyone the same money, plus bureaucratic and administration 
costs to get the results.  It just doesn’t work that way.  Insurance company 
profits are at an al- time high.  TPA’s profits are at an all-time high.  

   

  Glad I’m making decent money doing what I do …   blessed and grateful

   

  Paul

   

   

   

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy via Af
  Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 10:32 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

   

  We pay about the same as we did but our deductible is lower, our out of 
pocket max is lower

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Seth Mattinen via Af


On 10/9/14, 8:10, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

And everyone keeps touting the “great” systems of health care in Canada
and Europe.  Those systems are fine if you have the flu but if you need
an MRI, it could take  months.  If you have cancer late in life, I
suggest your will is ready.  It’s easier to get an MRI for your dog.
And when the money runs out in a fiscal year for a specific treatment,
you wait until the next fiscal year for that treatment.  In Europe, they
have lottery’s to see the dentist and if you don’t get picked, hopefully
you get picked the next time.




As someone with Canadian family, the normal procedure is to come over to 
the US and get an MRI or whatever if you can't get one there or your 
place on the waiting list sucks.


~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Duncan Scott via Af

Item 1 only works if you require that people have coverage.  Otherwise 
lots of people will wait until they have a significant medical issue and 
then go buy coverage.


I'm skeptical that 2 or 3 would have any effect on costs.

4. So much for state rights...

I have an alternate list:

1. Make it illegal for companies to provide health care. This is the 
root of the problem and has all sorts of negative effects.


~Duncan

On 10/9/2014 8:56 AM, Glen Waldrop via Af wrote:


The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

1)Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing conditions out.

2)Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

3)Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive 
malpractice amounts


4)Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let insurers 
sell all over the country


Rory

Well said.

- Original Message -
*From:* Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 10:10 AM
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

The big mistake of the public was that Obamacare was about
bringing down health costs.  That was a complete lie. Obamacare
was a wealth transfer from the rich to the poor.  Then it was
burdened by the political correctness bug making everyone pay for
every service everyone else needed such as pregnancy coverage for
60 year old women. Throw in the corruption and inefficiency of any
government program, and there was no way it was going to be
cheaper.   What they thought was that they could squeeze doctors
and hospitals even further on costs than Medicare and Medicaid
already had.  What they ended up with is 50% of the hospitals not
taking it and some of them going out of business, doctors leaving
the profession in droves, and small  practices having to be bought
up by bigger practices or simply go out of business.  The problem
was that Obamacare never covered the malpractice costs and
subsequent insurance costs which are really driving medical care
costs up along with the uninsured and illegal alien population
burdening the hospitals with uncollectible debt.

The consequences of Obamacare have been far more devastating short
term and long term than anyone ever thought of (Dodd—Frank and
U.S. tax policy comes into play here also).  Small businesses
stopped hiring and modified their workforces by letting go
full-time employees and moving them to part-time.   This has
resulted in 75% of all new jobs being part time instead of full
time which means that those workers are now on Obamacare if
anything.  These aren’t the people subsidizing everyone else.

Businesses kept workforces at 50 employees, started hiring more
contractors, or simply let people go to avoid being forced into
buying health care.  Even worse, with the costs of health care
going up, companies are dropping what health care they had and
letting those employees move to Obamacare or cutting the health
care insurance that they had back.

And everyone keeps touting the “great” systems of health care in
Canada and Europe.  Those systems are fine if you have the flu but
if you need an MRI, it could take  months.  If you have cancer
late in life, I suggest your will is ready.  It’s easier to get an
MRI for your dog.  And when the money runs out in a fiscal year
for a specific treatment, you wait until the next fiscal year for
that treatment.  In Europe, they have lottery’s to see the dentist
and if you don’t get picked, hopefully you get picked the next time.

Everyone keeps saying that this was a Republican idea.  It was
actually an idea by the Heritage Foundation and supported by many
Republicans, even Newt Gingrich.  That doesn’t mean it was ever a
good idea, it just means Republican politicians pander to their
constituents to stay in office as much as Democratic politicians
at the taxpayers’ expense.

The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

1)Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing
conditions out.

2)Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

3)Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive
malpractice amounts

4)Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let
insurers sell all over the country

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul McCall
via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:11 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Jeremy,

I am glad this worked out well for you financially.  Most people
have been very unhappy with the effect of this, and in then we ALL
pay for any costs that are lowered, subsidized etc.   Financially
for this country as a whole, today and in the future, Obamacare is
a disaster.  There is NO free lunch system that doesn’t

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on
the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to
other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health insurance
can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory). Can’t have
people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people
saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about increasing
coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people surprised at
this? If you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money
flows. Our system of providers and insurance companies is
**designed** to maximize heath costs. It is a positive feedback loop.
What is needed is a single payer system, like Canada, where one paying
party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and who has limited
ability to raise taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system
that has inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the opposite. The
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private
entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be discovered by the media in
the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it
was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by
Obama and I guess that is enough reason. The basic concept to use the
free market and let industry to its thing is normally what
Republican’s want. Not to mention its inherent ability to make more
money for insurance companies and private industry. Sure, they are
upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution system that makes
people with money pay more and people without pay less. Ok, so that
is two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated the saving
from the former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in
out-of-pocket costs. Then the other benefits of such a privatized
system would start to kick in and the open market competition for
services will drive costs down. With health care general health would
improve and costs would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the
existing out of control health care system. And if they could pass
the laws, would anyone trust our Government to run such a program?
And there is the root problem.

Obviously an over simplification but now back to my real job.

Blaze Broadband

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

People with pre-existing conditions are one of the few groups
benefitting from this.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy via Af
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:32 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

We pay about the same as we did but our deductible is lower, our out
of pocket max is lower, and they covered our pregnancy. We switched
during the first trimester because we didn't have maternity coverage
(no self-insured plans in our state had it), and Obamacare made
pregnancy not count as a pre-existing condition. It saved us about
$7,000-$8,000 this year. The craziest part is that we actually stayed
with the same provider, Select Health (IHC). It was just the
difference between them providing maternity and not providing
maternity. We have been very happy with our Obamacare.

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af af@afmug.com
mailto:af@afmug.com wrote:

Further the subsidies have been deemed unconstitutional, so they're
forcing us to pay insurance with the promise of subsidies that they
are now going to take away.

Bait and switch.

The whole thing has been a screwup from day one.

It is actually cheaper for me to pay out of pocket than pay for this
insurance, but the fines will get you either way.

- Original Message -

*From:*Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com

*To:*af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com

*Sent:*Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:03 PM

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

And so did the quality and options of your care. I know that 2 of
my doctors retired early and the other one doesn’t take
Obamacare. Fortunately I don’t have

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What happened 
to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the greatest health 
care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep wanting to go back 
to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

 

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health care.  
If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far enough.  
We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the costs.  The 
cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html




bp

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They 
always make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s 
premiums go up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if 
it is universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like 
Chuck, opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.

 

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

 

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it 
was mostly their idea.  Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by Obama and 
I guess that is enough reason.  The basic concept to use the free market and 
let industry to its thing is normally what Republican’s want.  Not to mention 
its inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies and private 
industry.  Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution 
system that makes people with money pay more and people without pay less.  Ok, 
so that is two reasons they hate it. 

 

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system 
simultaneously with universal coverage.  The CBO calculated the saving from the 
former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in out-of-pocket costs. 
 Then the other benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in and 
the open market competition for services will drive costs down.  With health 
care general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

 

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of 
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the existing 
out of control health care system.  And if they could pass the laws, would 
anyone trust our Government to run such a program?  And there is the root 
problem.

 

Obviously an over simplification but now back to my real job.

 

PC

Blaze Broadband

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

People with pre-existing conditions are one of the few groups 
benefitting from this.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy via Af
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:32 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

We pay about the same as we did but our deductible is lower, our out of 
pocket max is lower, and they covered our pregnancy.  We switched during the 
first trimester because we didn't have maternity coverage (no self-insured 
plans in our state had it), and Obamacare made pregnancy not count as a 
pre-existing condition.  It saved us about $7,000-$8,000 this year

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread That One Guy via Af

wealth transfer? Im not rich. Last year when contemplating going out on my
own and opening up shop one of the huge factors was insurance. The plan I
got quoted was going to run me around 450 a month to cover me and my kids
with a comparable amount of coverage to what i was getting through work. I
went last week to see what the cost was, the only thing remotely close has
3 times the deductible and higher copays for close to 900. I guess maybe im
misunderstanding what rich is, I was under the impression I was not,
financially at least, in spirit, im filthy rich. Is it my spirit that
defines my rich/poor status? I dont have the wealth to deliver to the poor
in spirit.

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Rory

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM

*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They always
make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums
go up. By definition. The only way health insurance can work is if it is
universal (code for mandatory). Can’t have people who can do math, like
Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone
pays. Spreads out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about increasing
coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people surprised at this? If
you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows. Our
system of providers and insurance companies is **designed** to maximize
heath costs. It is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single
payer system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage
to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise taxes. It is a
proper (negative) feedback system that has inheritably more control.
Canada, for the record, is not privatized health care like the VHA. In
fact it is the opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its
healthcare from private entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be
discovered by the media in the USA.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated the saving from
the former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in
out-of-pocket costs. Then the other benefits of such a privatized system
would start to kick in and the open market competition for services will
drive costs down. With health care general health would improve and costs
would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the
existing out of control health care system. And if they could pass the
laws, would anyone trust our Government to run such a program? And there
is the root problem.

Obviously an over simplification but now back to my real job.

Blaze Broadband

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com af-boun...@afmug.com] *On
Behalf Of *Rory Conaway via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

People with pre-existing conditions are one of the few groups benefitting
from

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Travis Johnson via Af

We currently pay about $1,200/month for our benefits package, per
employee (and family). That's health, dental and vision.

Travis

On 10/9/2014 10:54 AM, That One Guy via Af wrote:
wealth transfer? Im not rich. Last year when contemplating going out
on my own and opening up shop one of the huge factors was insurance.
The plan I got quoted was going to run me around 450 a month to cover
me and my kids with a comparable amount of coverage to what i was
getting through work. I went last week to see what the cost was, the
only thing remotely close has 3 times the deductible and higher copays
for close to 900. I guess maybe im misunderstanding what rich is, I
was under the impression I was not, financially at least, in spirit,
im filthy rich. Is it my spirit that defines my rich/poor status? I
dont have the wealth to deliver to the poor in spirit.

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com
mailto:af@afmug.com wrote:

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.
What happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest

country and the greatest health care in the world. Why does
everybody forget that and keep wanting to go back to the failed
systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI
machines, genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs,
Hepatitis drug research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a
hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a
great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM

*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go
far enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a
handle on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double
the cost to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house.
They always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions

everyone else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way
health insurance can work is if it is universal (code for
mandatory). Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck,
opting out. Or healthy people saying no. Everyone in.
Everyone pays. Spreads out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are
people surprised at this? If you want to control costs you
have to redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers
and insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath
costs. It is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a
single payer system, like Canada, where one paying party can
have maximum leverage to minimize costs and who has limited
ability to raise taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback
system that has inheritably more control. Canada, for the
record, is not privatized health care like the VHA. In fact
it is the opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all
its healthcare from private entities, like Medicare. A fact
yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare
since it was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was
championed by Obama and I guess that is enough reason. The
basic concept to use the free market and let industry to its
thing is normally what Republican’s want. Not to mention its
inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies
and private industry. Sure, they are upset that it is being
used as a wealth distribution system that makes people with
money pay more and people without pay less. Ok, so that is
two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated
the saving from the former would pay for the later resulting
in no increase in out-of-pocket costs. Then the other
benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in
and the open market competition for services will drive costs
down. With health care general health would improve and costs
would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero
chance

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare


Yeah, the state regulations were a total clusterf!@k.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 07:56 AM, Glen Waldrop via Af wrote:


The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

1)Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing conditions out.

2)Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

3)Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive 
malpractice amounts


4)Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let insurers 
sell all over the country


Rory

Well said.

- Original Message -
*From:* Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 10:10 AM
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

The big mistake of the public was that Obamacare was about
bringing down health costs.  That was a complete lie. Obamacare
was a wealth transfer from the rich to the poor.  Then it was
burdened by the political correctness bug making everyone pay for
every service everyone else needed such as pregnancy coverage for
60 year old women. Throw in the corruption and inefficiency of any
government program, and there was no way it was going to be
cheaper.   What they thought was that they could squeeze doctors
and hospitals even further on costs than Medicare and Medicaid
already had.  What they ended up with is 50% of the hospitals not
taking it and some of them going out of business, doctors leaving
the profession in droves, and small  practices having to be bought
up by bigger practices or simply go out of business.  The problem
was that Obamacare never covered the malpractice costs and
subsequent insurance costs which are really driving medical care
costs up along with the uninsured and illegal alien population
burdening the hospitals with uncollectible debt.

The consequences of Obamacare have been far more devastating short
term and long term than anyone ever thought of (Dodd—Frank and
U.S. tax policy comes into play here also).  Small businesses
stopped hiring and modified their workforces by letting go
full-time employees and moving them to part-time.   This has
resulted in 75% of all new jobs being part time instead of full
time which means that those workers are now on Obamacare if
anything.  These aren’t the people subsidizing everyone else.

Businesses kept workforces at 50 employees, started hiring more
contractors, or simply let people go to avoid being forced into
buying health care.  Even worse, with the costs of health care
going up, companies are dropping what health care they had and
letting those employees move to Obamacare or cutting the health
care insurance that they had back.

And everyone keeps touting the “great” systems of health care in
Canada and Europe.  Those systems are fine if you have the flu but
if you need an MRI, it could take  months.  If you have cancer
late in life, I suggest your will is ready.  It’s easier to get an
MRI for your dog.  And when the money runs out in a fiscal year
for a specific treatment, you wait until the next fiscal year for
that treatment.  In Europe, they have lottery’s to see the dentist
and if you don’t get picked, hopefully you get picked the next time.

Everyone keeps saying that this was a Republican idea.  It was
actually an idea by the Heritage Foundation and supported by many
Republicans, even Newt Gingrich.  That doesn’t mean it was ever a
good idea, it just means Republican politicians pander to their
constituents to stay in office as much as Democratic politicians
at the taxpayers’ expense.

The best idea would have been simple and cheap.

1)Don’t let insurance companies keep people with existing
conditions out.

2)Beef up review of bad doctors and get rid of them

3)Pass Tort reform and limit lawyers from suing for excessive
malpractice amounts

4)Get rid of state regulations on health insurance and let
insurers sell all over the country

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul McCall
via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 7:11 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Jeremy,

I am glad this worked out well for you financially.  Most people
have been very unhappy with the effect of this, and in then we ALL
pay for any costs that are lowered, subsidized etc.   Financially
for this country as a whole, today and in the future, Obamacare is
a disaster.  There is NO free lunch system that doesn’t cost
everyone the same money, plus bureaucratic and administration
costs to get the results.  It just doesn’t work that way.
Insurance company profits are at an al- time high.  TPA’s profits
are at an all-time high.

Glad I’m making decent money

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Chuck McCown via Af

One of my daughters lives in England.  She loves the health care system there.  

From: Rory Conaway via Af 
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 10:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What happened 
to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the greatest health 
care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep wanting to go back 
to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health care.  
If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

Rory 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far enough.  
We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the costs.  The 
cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bpOn 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

  What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They always make 
money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums go up.  
By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if it is universal 
(code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting 
out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  Spreads out 
the costs.

  ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

  It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it was 
mostly their idea.  Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by Obama and I 
guess that is enough reason.  The basic concept to use the free market and let 
industry to its thing is normally what Republican’s want.  Not to mention its 
inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies and private 
industry.  Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution 
system that makes people with money pay more and people without pay less.  Ok, 
so that is two reasons they hate it. 

  The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system simultaneously 
with universal coverage.  The CBO calculated the saving from the former would 
pay for the later resulting in no increase in out-of-pocket costs.  Then the 
other benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in and the open 
market competition for services will drive costs down.  With health care 
general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

  Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of 
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the existing 
out of control health care system.  And if they could pass the laws, would 
anyone trust our Government to run such a program?  And there is the root 
problem.

  Obviously an over simplification but now back to my real job.

  PC

  Blaze Broadband

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
  Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33 AM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

  People with pre-existing conditions are one of the few groups benefitting 
from this.

  Rory

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy via Af
  Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:32 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

  We pay about the same as we did but our deductible is lower, our out of 
pocket max is lower, and they covered our pregnancy.  We switched during the 
first trimester because we didn't have maternity coverage (no self-insured 
plans in our state had it), and Obamacare made pregnancy not count as a 
pre-existing condition.  It saved us about $7,000-$8,000 this year

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Chuck McCown via Af

We were paying more, something like $1500.  On self insurance that went below 
$750 for the same coverage.  

From: Travis Johnson via Af 
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 11:30 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

We currently pay about $1,200/month for our benefits package, per employee (and 
family). That's health, dental and vision.

Travis

On 10/9/2014 10:54 AM, That One Guy via Af wrote:

  wealth transfer? Im not rich. Last year when contemplating going out on my 
own and opening up shop one of the huge factors was insurance. The plan I got 
quoted was going to run me around 450 a month to cover me and my kids with a 
comparable amount of coverage to what i was getting through work. I went last 
week to see what the cost was, the only thing remotely close has 3 times the 
deductible and higher copays for close to 900. I guess maybe im 
misunderstanding what rich is, I was under the impression I was not, 
financially at least, in spirit, im filthy rich. Is it my spirit that defines 
my rich/poor status? I dont have the wealth to deliver to the poor in spirit.

  On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What 
happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the 
greatest health care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep 
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health 
care.  If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

Rory 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM

To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far 
enough.  We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the 
costs.  The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed 
countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bpOn 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

  What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They always 
make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums go 
up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if it is 
universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, 
opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.

  ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

  It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it was 
mostly their idea.  Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by Obama and I 
guess that is enough reason.  The basic concept to use the free market and let 
industry to its thing is normally what Republican’s want.  Not to mention its 
inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies and private 
industry.  Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution 
system that makes people with money pay more and people without pay less.  Ok, 
so that is two reasons they hate it. 

  The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system 
simultaneously with universal coverage.  The CBO calculated the saving from the 
former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in out-of-pocket costs. 
 Then the other benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in and 
the open market competition for services will drive costs down.  With health 
care general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

  Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of 
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the existing 
out of control health care system.  And if they could pass the laws, would

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Simon Westlake via Af

I thought it was great when I was there. Granted, I left 12 years ago,
the rest of my family is still using it though. My grandmother just had
to have some pretty significant treatment on the NHS.

On 10/9/2014 12:54 PM, Chuck McCown via Af wrote:
One of my daughters lives in England. She loves the health care
system there.

*From:* Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 10:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health
care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome
cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on
the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to
other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or

healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the opposite.
The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private

entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be discovered by the media
in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since
it was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was
championed by Obama and I guess that is enough reason. The basic
concept to use the free market and let industry to its thing is
normally what Republican’s want. Not to mention its inherent
ability to make more money for insurance companies and private
industry. Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth
distribution system that makes people with money pay more and
people without pay less. Ok, so that is two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated the
saving from the former would pay for the later resulting in no
increase in out-of-pocket costs. Then the other benefits of such
a privatized system would start to kick in and the open market
competition for services will drive costs down. With health care
general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance
of overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of
the existing out of control health care system. And if they could
pass the laws, would anyone trust our Government to run such a
program? And there is the root problem.

Obviously an over simplification but now back to my real job.

Blaze Broadband

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory
Conaway via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

People with pre-existing conditions are one of the few groups
benefitting from this.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy via Af
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:32 PM

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

If you don’t get subsidies or if you make over $250K per year, welcome to the 
rich category as defined by the government.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of That One Guy via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:54 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

wealth transfer? Im not rich. Last year when contemplating going out on my own 
and opening up shop one of the huge factors was insurance. The plan I got 
quoted was going to run me around 450 a month to cover me and my kids with a 
comparable amount of coverage to what i was getting through work. I went last 
week to see what the cost was, the only thing remotely close has 3 times the 
deductible and higher copays for close to 900. I guess maybe im 
misunderstanding what rich is, I was under the impression I was not, 
financially at least, in spirit, im filthy rich. Is it my spirit that defines 
my rich/poor status? I dont have the wealth to deliver to the poor in spirit.

 

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What happened 
to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the greatest health 
care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep wanting to go back 
to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

 

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health care.  
If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM


To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far enough.  
We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the costs.  The 
cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html



bp

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They 
always make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s 
premiums go up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if 
it is universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like 
Chuck, opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.

 

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

 

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it 
was mostly their idea.  Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by Obama and 
I guess that is enough reason.  The basic concept to use the free market and 
let industry to its thing is normally what Republican’s want.  Not to mention 
its inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies and private 
industry.  Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution 
system that makes people with money pay more and people without pay less.  Ok, 
so that is two reasons they hate it. 

 

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system 
simultaneously with universal coverage.  The CBO calculated the saving from the 
former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in out-of-pocket costs. 
 Then the other benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in and 
the open market competition for services will drive costs down.  With health 
care general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

 

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of 
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the existing 
out of control health care system.  And if they could pass the laws, would 
anyone trust our Government to run such a program?  And there is the root 
problem

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread That One Guy via Af

The plan was private not group, does group cost more? I would expect it to
be less.
if I made 250k I wouldnt really care about paying double for a plan
I never looked at group because I assumed I wouldnt have staff for at least
a year.

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

If you don’t get subsidies or if you make over $250K per year, welcome to
the rich category as defined by the government.

Rory

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *That One Guy via
Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:54 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Rory

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM

*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They always
make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums
go up. By definition. The only way health insurance can work is if it is
universal (code for mandatory). Can’t have people who can do math, like
Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone
pays. Spreads out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about increasing
coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people surprised at this? If
you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows. Our
system of providers and insurance companies is **designed** to maximize
heath costs. It is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single
payer system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage
to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise taxes. It is a
proper (negative) feedback system that has inheritably more control.
Canada, for the record, is not privatized health care like the VHA. In
fact it is the opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its
healthcare from private entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be
discovered by the media in the USA.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated the saving from
the former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in
out-of-pocket costs. Then the other benefits of such a privatized system
would start to kick in and the open market competition for services will
drive costs down. With health care general health would improve and costs
would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Obamacare provides subsidies if your income is $63,000 per year. Over
that, and the subsidy is zip.

On 10/9/2014 11:14 AM, James Howard via Af wrote:

According to the insurance guy I was talking to recently, in Wisconsin
the private plans are what had a 200% increase (or more) this year.
Sounds like you might have had that happen in Illinois too. Group
rates are generally lower. I think you can qualify for a group rate
with a very small number but I don’t know about it being just 1
employee. Before Obamacare, you could often get into groups by
joining a Chamber of Commerce.

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *That One Guy via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 1:03 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

The plan was private not group, does group cost more? I would expect
it to be less.

if I made 250k I wouldnt really care about paying double for a plan

I never looked at group because I assumed I wouldnt have staff for at
least a year.

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com
mailto:af@afmug.com wrote:

If you don’t get subsidies or if you make over $250K per year, welcome
to the rich category as defined by the government.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com]
*On Behalf Of *That One Guy via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:54 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

wealth transfer? Im not rich. Last year when contemplating going out
on my own and opening up shop one of the huge factors was insurance.
The plan I got quoted was going to run me around 450 a month to cover
me and my kids with a comparable amount of coverage to what i was
getting through work. I went last week to see what the cost was, the
only thing remotely close has 3 times the deductible and higher copays
for close to 900. I guess maybe im misunderstanding what rich is, I
was under the impression I was not, financially at least, in spirit,
im filthy rich. Is it my spirit that defines my rich/poor status? I
dont have the wealth to deliver to the poor in spirit.

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com
mailto:af@afmug.com wrote:

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health
care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome
cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com]
*On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM

*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on
the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to
other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or
healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the opposite.
The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private
entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be discovered by the media
in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since
it was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was
championed

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Groups rates either went up or services went down.  We will spend at least $6K 
more this year minimum.  The year isn’t over yet.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 11:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Obamacare provides subsidies if your income is  $63,000 per year.  Over that, 
and the subsidy is zip.




bp

On 10/9/2014 11:14 AM, James Howard via Af wrote:

According to the insurance guy I was talking to recently, in Wisconsin 
the private plans are what had a 200% increase (or more) this year.  Sounds 
like you might have had that happen in Illinois too.  Group rates are generally 
lower.  I think you can qualify for a group rate with a very small number but I 
don’t know about it being just 1 employee.  Before Obamacare, you could often 
get into groups by joining a Chamber of Commerce. 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of That One Guy via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 1:03 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

The plan was private not group, does group cost more? I would expect it 
to be less. 

if I made 250k I wouldnt really care about paying double for a plan

I never looked at group because I assumed I wouldnt have staff for at 
least a year.

 

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com 
wrote:

If you don’t get subsidies or if you make over $250K per year, welcome 
to the rich category as defined by the government.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of That One Guy via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:54 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

wealth transfer? Im not rich. Last year when contemplating going out on 
my own and opening up shop one of the huge factors was insurance. The plan I 
got quoted was going to run me around 450 a month to cover me and my kids with 
a comparable amount of coverage to what i was getting through work. I went last 
week to see what the cost was, the only thing remotely close has 3 times the 
deductible and higher copays for close to 900. I guess maybe im 
misunderstanding what rich is, I was under the impression I was not, 
financially at least, in spirit, im filthy rich. Is it my spirit that defines 
my rich/poor status? I dont have the wealth to deliver to the poor in spirit.

 

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com 
wrote:

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What 
happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the 
greatest health care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep 
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

 

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health 
care.  If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM


To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far 
enough.  We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the 
costs.  The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed 
countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bp

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  
They always make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s 
premiums go up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if 
it is universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like 
Chuck, opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.

 

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about 
increasing coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at 
this?  If you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  
Our system of providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath 
costs.  It is a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer 
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to 
minimize costs and who has limited ability

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.  Between 
continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration and growth of an 
uneducated population, and lawlessness from the President on down, Capitalism 
won’t survive.  Unfortunately, if it fails, then so does the country and as 
evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, 
dictatorships masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral 
or ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide.  Capitalism funds and drives 
the United States to continue to be a leader in the world. 

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

While capitalism may have built the greatest country in the world, some think 
capitalism cannot sustain the greatest country in the world.

 

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/ 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What happened 
to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the greatest health 
care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep wanting to go back 
to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

 

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health care.  
If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

 

Rory 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far enough.  
We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the costs.  The 
cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bp

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They 
always make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s 
premiums go up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if 
it is universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like 
Chuck, opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.

 

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

 

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it 
was mostly their idea.  Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by Obama and 
I guess that is enough reason.  The basic concept to use the free market and 
let industry to its thing is normally what Republican’s want.  Not to mention 
its inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies and private 
industry.  Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution 
system that makes people with money pay more and people without pay less.  Ok, 
so that is two reasons they hate it. 

 

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system 
simultaneously with universal coverage.  The CBO calculated the saving from the 
former would pay for the later resulting in no increase in out-of-pocket costs. 
 Then the other benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in and 
the open market competition for services will drive costs down.  With health 
care general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

 

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of 
overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of the existing 
out of control health care system.  And if they could pass the laws, would 
anyone

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Paul McCall via Af

+1

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:54 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.  Between 
continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration and growth of an 
uneducated population, and lawlessness from the President on down, Capitalism 
won’t survive.  Unfortunately, if it fails, then so does the country and as 
evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, 
dictatorships masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral 
or ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide.  Capitalism funds and drives 
the United States to continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have built the greatest country in the world, some think 
capitalism cannot sustain the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright
Velociter Wirelesshttp://www.velociter.net/

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What happened 
to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the greatest health 
care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep wanting to go back 
to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health care.  
If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far enough.  
We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the costs.  The 
cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed countries.

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bp
On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:
What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They always make 
money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums go up.  
By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if it is universal 
(code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting 
out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  Spreads out 
the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing coverage. 
 More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you want to 
control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since it was 
mostly their idea.  Well, other than ObamaCare was championed by Obama and I 
guess that is enough reason.  The basic concept to use the free market and let 
industry to its thing is normally what Republican’s want.  Not to mention its 
inherent ability to make more money for insurance companies and private 
industry.  Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth distribution 
system that makes people with money pay more and people without pay less.  Ok, 
so that is two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system simultaneously 
with universal coverage.  The CBO calculated the saving from the former would 
pay for the later resulting in no increase in out-of-pocket costs.  Then the 
other benefits of such a privatized system would start to kick in and the open 
market competition for services will drive costs down.  With health care 
general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance of overcoming 
the trillions of dollars companies are making off

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Adam Moffett via Af

If you go into a Doctor's office and receive aspirin and a hug, you'll
still get a $500 bill (or your insurance will).

I'd love it if we could address whatever drives the costs up.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health
care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome
cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on
the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to
other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or

healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the opposite.
The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private
entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be discovered by the media
in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since
it was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was
championed by Obama and I guess that is enough reason. The basic
concept to use the free market and let industry to its thing is
normally what Republican’s want. Not to mention its inherent
ability to make more money for insurance companies and private
industry. Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth
distribution system that makes people with money pay more and
people without pay less. Ok, so that is two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated the
saving from the former would pay for the later resulting in no
increase in out-of-pocket costs. Then the other benefits of such a
privatized system would start to kick in and the open market
competition for services will drive costs down. With health care
general health would improve and costs would go down even more.

Unfortunately the Government is dysfunctional and has zero chance
of overcoming the trillions of dollars companies are making off of
the existing out of control health care system. And if they could
pass the laws, would anyone trust our Government to run such a
program? And there is the root problem.

Obviously an over simplification but now back to my real job.

Blaze Broadband

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory
Conaway via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

People with pre-existing conditions are one of the few groups
benefitting from this.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy via Af
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 08, 2014 7:32 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Sean Heskett via Af

Yes corporate welfare is very damaging to capitalism and the economy.
Banks, car manufactures, airlines, on and on.

On Thursday, October 9, 2014, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Rory

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Chris
Wright via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com');
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the world, some
think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Rory
Conaway via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com');
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Rory

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Bill
Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com');
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They always
make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums
go up. By definition. The only way health insurance can work is if it is
universal (code for mandatory). Can’t have people who can do math, like
Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone
pays. Spreads out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about increasing
coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people surprised at this? If
you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows. Our
system of providers and insurance companies is **designed** to maximize
heath costs. It is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single
payer system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage
to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise taxes. It is a
proper (negative) feedback system that has inheritably more control.
Canada, for the record, is not privatized health care like the VHA. In
fact it is the opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its
healthcare from private entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be
discovered by the media in the USA.

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college
virtually free by removing tuition costs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2TRILLION dollars in
student debt.

OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when the
QUALITY of our educational institutions(especially public) is horrible.

There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need workers to
fill them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated hands to build
infrastructure for the next few generations.

I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up. Between
continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration and
growth of an uneducated population, and lawlessness from the President
on down, Capitalism won’t survive. Unfortunately, if it fails, then
so does the country and as evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil
philosophies such as radical Islam, dictatorships masquerading as
Communism, and Communist countries with no moral or ethical
foundation, complete anarchy worldwide. Capitalism funds and drives
the United States to continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wright via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the world,
some think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health
care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome
cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on
the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to
other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or

healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the opposite.
The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private

entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be discovered by the media
in the USA.

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Glen Waldrop via Af

I think the general population thinks machines do all the technical work.

Finding someone that knows how to work concrete, run electrical, plumbing, etc, 
correctly is much harder than it was 20 years ago.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Josh Reynolds via Af 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

  Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college virtually 
free by removing tuition costs.

  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

  Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2 TRILLION dollars in 
student debt.

  OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when the 
QUALITY of our educational institutions (especially public) is horrible.

  There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need workers to fill 
them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated hands to build 
infrastructure for the next few generations.

  I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.  Between 
continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration and growth of an 
uneducated population, and lawlessness from the President on down, Capitalism 
won’t survive.  Unfortunately, if it fails, then so does the country and as 
evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, 
dictatorships masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral 
or ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide.  Capitalism funds and drives 
the United States to continue to be a leader in the world. 

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have built the greatest country in the world, some 
think capitalism cannot sustain the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What 
happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the 
greatest health care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep 
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health 
care.  If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

Rory 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far 
enough.  We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the 
costs.  The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed 
countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bpOn 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

  What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They always 
make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums go 
up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if it is 
universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, 
opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.

  ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability to raise taxes.  It is a proper (negative) feedback 
system that has inheritably more control.  Canada, for the record, is not 
privatized health care like the VHA.  In fact it is the opposite.  The 
Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare from private entities, like 
Medicare.  A fact yet to be discovered by the media in the USA.

  It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare since

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Part of this problem is that unchecked immigration has driven down the wages in 
these fields.  It’s harder today to raise a family as a carpenter or mechanic 
than it was 40 years ago.

 

Rory

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Glen Waldrop via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 3:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

I think the general population thinks machines do all the technical work.

Finding someone that knows how to work concrete, run electrical, plumbing, etc, 
correctly is much harder than it was 20 years ago.

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Josh Reynolds via Af mailto:af@afmug.com  

To: af@afmug.com 

Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:50 PM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

 

Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college 
virtually free by removing tuition costs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2 TRILLION dollars 
in student debt.

OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when 
the QUALITY of our educational institutions (especially public) is horrible.

There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need workers 
to fill them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated hands to build 
infrastructure for the next few generations.

I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.  
Between continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration and growth 
of an uneducated population, and lawlessness from the President on down, 
Capitalism won’t survive.  Unfortunately, if it fails, then so does the country 
and as evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil philosophies such as radical 
Islam, dictatorships masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no 
moral or ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide.  Capitalism funds and 
drives the United States to continue to be a leader in the world. 

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris 
Wright via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have built the greatest country in the 
world, some think capitalism cannot sustain the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/ 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory 
Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t 
work.  What happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and 
the greatest health care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep 
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our 
health care.  If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome 
cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  
If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that 
socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince 
via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't 
go far enough.  We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on 
the costs.  The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other 
developed countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bp

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the 
house.  They always make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone 
else’s premiums go up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work 
is if it is universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, 
like Chuck, opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone 
pays.  Spreads out the costs.

ObamaCare

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Chuck McCown via Af

Most of my kids have gone to BYU, so... pretty conservative fare.  I have a 
couple of heretics that went to USU and one that got a degree in Cornwall 
England.  But none of them have complained about liberal agendas.

From: Travis Johnson via Af 
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:29 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

OTOH, I have two girls in college... both honor students with a 4.0 at two 
different colleges. They both hated all the dumb classes they had to take at 
first, but then after a year or two, they both recognized the value in those 
type of classes. They are involved in many outside associations and activities, 
mainly because of those type of classes. They have received many scholarships 
and awards due to some of those classes. Yes, there are classes they hate and 
wished they didn't have to take... but as my oldest nears graduation this May, 
her depth on many subjects is awesome. :)

Part of the issue could be the exact class your boys are selecting... I know at 
both of my daughter's schools there are literally hundreds of humanities 
classes available, and they have never taken a Beatles History class. LOL

Travis

On 10/9/2014 4:16 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

  I have 2 boys in college.  Both boys are going into science fields of one 
kind or another and both will get post-graduate degrees.  However, as a parent, 
when I have to pay for classes such as Beatles History, sexual history of the 
human race, or a couple other really stupid humanities classes such as these 
that have nothing whatsoever in common with their degrees, I have no sympathy 
for colleges that need more money.  I estimate we personally wasted $3000 or 
more on these classes that are nothing more than to keep some useless professor 
employed. That is money I would rather have spent on lab resources, additional 
classes, or something pertaining to their real education.  Want to make college 
more affordable, put these inane classes under scrutiny to the taxpayers and 
see how fast the budgets start getting cut.

  Rory

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 2:50 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

  Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college virtually 
free by removing tuition costs.

  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

  Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2 TRILLION dollars in 
student debt.

  OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when the 
QUALITY of our educational institutions (especially public) is horrible.

  There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need workers to fill 
them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated hands to build 
infrastructure for the next few generations.

  I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

  Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
  SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com

  On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.  Between 
continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration and growth of an 
uneducated population, and lawlessness from the President on down, Capitalism 
won’t survive.  Unfortunately, if it fails, then so does the country and as 
evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, 
dictatorships masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral 
or ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide.  Capitalism funds and drives 
the United States to continue to be a leader in the world. 

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Wright via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have built the greatest country in the world, some 
think capitalism cannot sustain the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Rory Conaway via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What 
happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the 
greatest health care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep 
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health 
care.  If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.

Rory 

From: Af [mailto:af

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Glen Waldrop via Af

Check the prices for those procedures in other countries.

Our medical system is out of touch with the rest of the world.

I spoke with another Lyme patient who went to visit friends in Japan and got an 
MRI done there. The expense from the trip and testing still didn't touch what 
an MRI costs in the US.



  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson via Af 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 5:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare


  It's not the routine care and occasional small health issue, it's when the 
$500,000 heart attack happens. Or the $300,000 kidney failure. Or even the 
$100,000 surgery... that's really what insurance is for.

  They charge full retail when they have to bill insurance because it's such 
a pain to actually collect. I work with several medical billing offices. These 
are full time companies that do nothing but handle insurance billing for 
doctors, etc... it's THAT big of a job to actually collect from all these 
insurance companies (the same ones that are making billions in profits each 
year).

  Travis


  On 10/9/2014 3:45 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af wrote:

The hospital, yes. The doctor's office, no.

I was a cash patient going to a specialist. My insurance price is around 
$175, my cash price was $130. Same with my meds, I paid cash price at my 
pharmacy and one run would be $66. With insurance they bill full retail which 
is closer to double that and I pay a $20 co pay. The pharmacy makes more money 
with my insurance, but they still made a profit without. I'm good friends with 
my pharmacist.

I ran the numbers, even dealing with Lyme disease I was spending around 
$2500 a year, including supplements that aren't covered by insurance. I'm 
paying around $4000 a year for my insurance and still paying a chunk of my 
doctor bill and my medications, still paying for my supplements. My total 
healthcare is more like $5000 to $6000 a year now.

I spent less on healthcare by paying cash.

The testing was nice to have covered by insurance, but I'd have still come 
out cheaper at the end of the year to pay cash for those than pay my insurance.

I will say this, my wife had a miscarriage last month. Insurance came in 
handy on that bill, however, paying cash for the same service would have only 
made our healthcare equal what I'm paying for insurance every year.



  - Original Message - 
  From: Adam Moffett via Af 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare




  If you go into a Doctor's office and receive aspirin and a hug, you'll 
still get a $500 bill (or your insurance will).

  I'd love it if we could address whatever drives the costs up.


Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work.  What 
happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the 
greatest health care in the world.  Why does everybody forget that and keep 
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.


Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health 
care.  If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome cancer 
treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research, etc…  If all 
you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized 
medicine is a great idea.


Rory 


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare


Amen brother Conlin.  

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far 
enough.  We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle on the 
costs.  The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost to other developed 
countries.  

Just peruse this: 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html




bpOn 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

  What did people expect?  Insurance companies are the house.  They 
always make money.  By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s 
premiums go up.  By definition.  The only way health insurance can work is if 
it is universal (code for mandatory).  Can’t have people who can do math, like 
Chuck, opting out.  Or healthy people saying no.  Everyone in.  Everyone pays.  
Spreads out the costs.


  ObamaCare was never about controlling costs.  It was about increasing 
coverage.  More coverage costs more.  Why are people surprised at this?  If you 
want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows.  Our system of 
providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath costs.  It is 
a positive feedback loop.  What is needed is a single payer system, like 
Canada, where one paying party can have maximum leverage to minimize costs and 
who has limited ability

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Or cut out HALF of the $3 TRILLION we spend on alleged health care.

On 10/9/2014 2:50 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college
virtually free by removing tuition costs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2TRILLION dollars
in student debt.

OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when
the QUALITY of our educational institutions(especially public) is
horrible.

There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need workers
to fill them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated hands to
build infrastructure for the next few generations.

I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.
Between continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration
and growth of an uneducated population, and lawlessness from the
President on down, Capitalism won’t survive. Unfortunately, if it
fails, then so does the country and as evidenced by the unchecked
growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, dictatorships
masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral or
ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide. Capitalism funds and
drives the United States to continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wright
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the world,
some think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines,
genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle
on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost
to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or

healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the
opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare
from private entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be
discovered by the media in the USA.

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Reduce the cost of education and healthcare and you have a educated,
healthy workforce with more disposable income. Not only are they able to
produce more, but they also have more disposable income.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 02:45 PM, Bill Prince via Af wrote:

Or cut out HALF of the $3 TRILLION we spend on alleged health care.

bp
On 10/9/2014 2:50 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college
virtually free by removing tuition costs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2TRILLION dollars
in student debt.

OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when
the QUALITY of our educational institutions(especially public) is
horrible.

There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need workers
to fill them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated hands to
build infrastructure for the next few generations.

I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.
Between continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration
and growth of an uneducated population, and lawlessness from the
President on down, Capitalism won’t survive. Unfortunately, if it
fails, then so does the country and as evidenced by the unchecked
growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, dictatorships
masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral or
ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide. Capitalism funds
and drives the United States to continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wright
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the world,
some think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country in the
world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI
machines, genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs,
Hepatitis drug research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a
hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a
great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go
far enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a
handle on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double
the cost to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house.
They always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the
opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare
from

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Correction. This Forbes article claims we spend $3.8 TRILLION per year.

Pretty soon, you're talking real money.

On 10/9/2014 3:54 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
Reduce the cost of education and healthcare and you have a educated,
healthy workforce with more disposable income. Not only are they able
to produce more, but they also have more disposable income.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 02:45 PM, Bill Prince via Af wrote:

Or cut out HALF of the $3 TRILLION we spend on alleged health care.

bp
On 10/9/2014 2:50 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote:
Awesome. Then do what Germany recently did, which is making college
virtually free by removing tuition costs.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/get-a-free-college-degree-passport-required/

Now you have a population that isn't drowning in 1.2TRILLION dollars
in student debt.

OTOH, having a college degree doesn't amount to a hill of beans when
the QUALITY of our educational institutions(especially public) is
horrible.

There's also a huge amount of skilled trades that really need
workers to fill them. Plumbers, electricians, etc need able educated
hands to build infrastructure for the next few generations.

I'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpn0vh2Rj0Y

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 12:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.
Between continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked
immigration and growth of an uneducated population, and lawlessness
from the President on down, Capitalism won’t survive.
Unfortunately, if it fails, then so does the country and as
evidenced by the unchecked growth of evil philosophies such as
radical Islam, dictatorships masquerading as Communism, and
Communist countries with no moral or ethical foundation, complete
anarchy worldwide. Capitalism funds and drives the United States to
continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wright
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the
world, some think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country
in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI
machines, genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs,
Hepatitis drug research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a
hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a
great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go
far enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a
handle on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double
the cost to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house.
They always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions

payer system, like Canada, where one paying party can have
maximum leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability
to raise taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that
has inheritably more control. Canada

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Dan Petermann via Af

My wife wanted her doctor to deliver our son. He told her that if he delivered
a baby, even on the side of a road in an emergency, his malpractice insurance
would increase by $30,000.00/year. Think about that.

30K!

Our legal, insurance, and medical industry is completely out of touch.

On Oct 9, 2014, at 4:34 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Check the prices for those procedures in other countries.

Our medical system is out of touch with the rest of the world.

I spoke with another Lyme patient who went to visit friends in Japan and got
an MRI done there. The expense from the trip and testing still didn't touch
what an MRI costs in the US.

- Original Message -
From: Travis Johnson via Af
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

It's not the routine care and occasional small health issue, it's when the
$500,000 heart attack happens. Or the $300,000 kidney failure. Or even the
$100,000 surgery... that's really what insurance is for.

They charge full retail when they have to bill insurance because it's such
a pain to actually collect. I work with several medical billing offices.
These are full time companies that do nothing but handle insurance billing
for doctors, etc... it's THAT big of a job to actually collect from all these
insurance companies (the same ones that are making billions in profits each
year).

Travis

On 10/9/2014 3:45 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af wrote:
The hospital, yes. The doctor's office, no.

I ran the numbers, even dealing with Lyme disease I was spending around
$2500 a year, including supplements that aren't covered by insurance. I'm
paying around $4000 a year for my insurance and still paying a chunk of my
doctor bill and my medications, still paying for my supplements. My total
healthcare is more like $5000 to $6000 a year now.

I spent less on healthcare by paying cash.

The testing was nice to have covered by insurance, but I'd have still come
out cheaper at the end of the year to pay cash for those than pay my
insurance.

I will say this, my wife had a miscarriage last month. Insurance came in
handy on that bill, however, paying cash for the same service would have
only made our healthcare equal what I'm paying for insurance every year.

- Original Message -
From: Adam Moffett via Af
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

If you go into a Doctor's office and receive aspirin and a hug, you'll still
get a $500 bill (or your insurance will).

I'd love it if we could address whatever drives the costs up.

Collin, socialized medicine or socialized anything doesn’t work. What
happened to the idea that Capitalism built the greatest country and the
greatest health care in the world. Why does everybody forget that and keep
wanting to go back to the failed systems in Europe, Socialism, Communism.
Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our health
care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines, genome
cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug research,
etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep holding to the idea
that socialized medicine is a great idea.
Rory
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare
Amen brother Conlin.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bp
On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:
What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They always
make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums
go up. By definition. The only way health insurance can work is if it is
universal (code for mandatory). Can’t have people who can do math, like
Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone
pays. Spreads out the costs.
ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about increasing
coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people surprised at this? If
you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows. Our

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Actually, it's the mega hospital bill that accumulates when you are on
your death bed, and they spare no expense at keeping you alive despite
the fact that you're going to die anyway. And probably in significant
pain, with no hope of getting better.

Last statistic I heard/read was 80% of your health care expenses occur
in the last 3 months of life.

Personally, I'd like to just sit out on the deck and enjoy the fresh air
for the last days of my life.

On 10/9/2014 3:22 PM, Travis Johnson via Af wrote:
It's not the routine care and occasional small health issue, it's when
the $500,000 heart attack happens. Or the $300,000 kidney failure. Or
even the $100,000 surgery... that's really what insurance is for.

They charge full retail when they have to bill insurance because
it's such a pain to actually collect. I work with several medical
billing offices. These are full time companies that do nothing but
handle insurance billing for doctors, etc... it's THAT big of a job to
actually collect from all these insurance companies (the same ones
that are making billions in profits each year).

Travis

On 10/9/2014 3:45 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af wrote:

The hospital, yes. The doctor's office, no.

I was a cash patient going to a specialist. My insurance price is
around $175, my cash price was $130. Same with my meds, I paid cash
price at my pharmacy and one run would be $66. With insurance they
bill full retail which is closer to double that and I pay a $20 co
pay. The pharmacy makes more money with my insurance, but they still
made a profit without. I'm good friends with my pharmacist.
I ran the numbers, even dealing with Lyme disease I was spending
around $2500 a year, including supplements that aren't covered by
insurance. I'm paying around $4000 a year for my insurance and still
paying a chunk of my doctor bill and my medications, still paying for
my supplements. My total healthcare is more like $5000 to $6000 a
year now.

I spent less on healthcare by paying cash.
The testing was nice to have covered by insurance, but I'd have still
come out cheaper at the end of the year to pay cash for those than
pay my insurance.

I will say this, my wife had a miscarriage last month. Insurance came
in handy on that bill, however, paying cash for the same service
would have only made our healthcare equal what I'm paying for
insurance every year.

- Original Message -
*From:* Adam Moffett via Af mailto:af@afmug.com
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:04 PM
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

If you go into a Doctor's office and receive aspirin and a hug,
you'll still get a $500 bill (or your insurance will).

I'd love it if we could address whatever drives the costs up.

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI
machines, genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs,
Hepatitis drug research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and
a hug, you keep holding to the idea that socialized medicine is
a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill
Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't
go far enough. We really, really need to have a system that
gets a handle on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more
than double the cost to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

(code for mandatory). Can’t have people who can do math,
like Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people saying no.
Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads out the costs.

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

If you are only a good person because of some promise of your own
personal utopia in the afterlife, then you're pretty much a PoS as an
individual.

The Golden Rule goes a long way.

Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer
SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com

On 10/09/2014 04:13 PM, Bob Hrbek via Af wrote:

no moral or ethical foundation

This is the demise of every great civilization

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity or misspellings.

On Oct 9, 2014, at 4:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com
mailto:af@afmug.com wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.
Between continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration
and growth of an uneducated population, and lawlessness from the
President on down, Capitalism won’t survive. Unfortunately, if it
fails, then so does the country and as evidenced by the unchecked
growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, dictatorships
masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral or
ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide. Capitalism funds and
drives the United States to continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wright
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the world,
some think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines,
genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle
on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost
to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or

healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the
opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare
from private entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be
discovered by the media in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare
since it was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was
championed by Obama and I guess that is enough reason. The basic
concept to use the free market and let industry to its thing is
normally what Republican’s want. Not to mention its inherent
ability to make more money for insurance companies and private
industry. Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth
distribution system that makes people with money pay more and
people without pay less. Ok, so that is two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

2014-10-09 Thread Bob Hrbek via Af

Lawyers?

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity or misspellings.

On Oct 9, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af af@afmug.com wrote:

Check the prices for those procedures in other countries.

Our medical system is out of touch with the rest of the world.

I spoke with another Lyme patient who went to visit friends in Japan and got
an MRI done there. The expense from the trip and testing still didn't touch
what an MRI costs in the US.

- Original Message -
From: Travis Johnson via Af
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Travis

On 10/9/2014 3:45 PM, Glen Waldrop via Af wrote:
The hospital, yes. The doctor's office, no.

I spent less on healthcare by paying cash.

The testing was nice to have covered by insurance, but I'd have still come
out cheaper at the end of the year to pay cash for those than pay my
insurance.

- Original Message -
From: Adam Moffett via Af
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2014 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

If you go into a Doctor's office and receive aspirin and a hug, you'll still
get a $500 bill (or your insurance will).

I'd love it if we could address whatever drives the costs up.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

bp
On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:
What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They always
make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone else’s premiums
go up. By definition. The only way healthinsurance can work
is if it is universal (code for mandatory). Can’t have people who can do
math, like Chuck, opting out. Or healthy people saying no. Everyone in.
Everyone pays. Spreads out the costs.
ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about increasing
coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people surprised at this? If
you want to control costs you have to redesign the way money flows. Our
system of providers and insurance companies is *designed* to maximize heath
costs. It is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

We're OK until we start sending Gladiators into the arena

Oh wait, that's NFL football.

We're doomed.

bp
On 10/9/2014 5:13 PM, Bob Hrbek via Af wrote:

no moral or ethical foundation

This is the demise of every great civilization

Sent from my mobile device. Please excuse my brevity or misspellings.

On Oct 9, 2014, at 4:53 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com
mailto:af@afmug.com wrote:

It can’t if it’s constantly chipped apart from the bottom up.
Between continued growth of the welfare state, unchecked immigration
and growth of an uneducated population, and lawlessness from the
President on down, Capitalism won’t survive. Unfortunately, if it
fails, then so does the country and as evidenced by the unchecked
growth of evil philosophies such as radical Islam, dictatorships
masquerading as Communism, and Communist countries with no moral or
ethical foundation, complete anarchy worldwide. Capitalism funds and
drives the United States to continue to be a leader in the world.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chris Wright
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 12:58 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

While capitalism may have *built* the greatest country in the world,
some think capitalism cannot *sustain* the greatest country in the world.

Chris Wright

Velociter Wireless http://www.velociter.net/

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Rory Conaway
via Af

*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Costs go up because of attorney’s and the technology behind our
health care. If you want cheap health care, get rid of MRI machines,
genome cancer treatments, laser surgeries, AiDs drugs, Hepatitis drug
research, etc… If all you want is an aspirin and a hug, you keep
holding to the idea that socialized medicine is a great idea.

Rory

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince via Af
*Sent:* Thursday, October 09, 2014 9:41 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare

Amen brother Conlin.

The way I see it, the biggest problem is that ObamaCare didn't go far
enough. We really, really need to have a system that gets a handle
on the costs. The cost to US citizens is more than double the cost
to other developed countries.

Just peruse this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/26/charts-health-care-costs-americans_n_2957266.html

On 10/9/2014 5:12 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote:

What did people expect? Insurance companies are the house. They
always make money. By accepting pre-existing conditions everyone
else’s premiums go up. By definition. The only way health
insurance can work is if it is universal (code for mandatory).
Can’t have people who can do math, like Chuck, opting out. Or

healthy people saying no. Everyone in. Everyone pays. Spreads
out the costs.

ObamaCare was never about controlling costs. It was about
increasing coverage. More coverage costs more. Why are people
surprised at this? If you want to control costs you have to
redesign the way money flows. Our system of providers and
insurance companies is **designed** to maximize heath costs. It
is a positive feedback loop. What is needed is a single payer
system, like Canada, where one paying party can have maximum
leverage to minimize costs and who has limited ability to raise
taxes. It is a proper (negative) feedback system that has
inheritably more control. Canada, for the record, is not
privatized health care like the VHA. In fact it is the
opposite. The Government of Canada purchases all its healthcare
from private entities, like Medicare. A fact yet to be
discovered by the media in the USA.

It is hard to understand why the Republican’s hate ObamaCare
since it was mostly their idea. Well, other than ObamaCare was
championed by Obama and I guess that is enough reason. The basic
concept to use the free market and let industry to its thing is
normally what Republican’s want. Not to mention its inherent
ability to make more money for insurance companies and private
industry. Sure, they are upset that it is being used as a wealth
distribution system that makes people with money pay more and
people without pay less. Ok, so that is two reasons they hate it.

The mistake made, was not implementing a single payer system
simultaneously with universal coverage. The CBO calculated the
saving from the former would pay for the later resulting

Re: [AFMUG] ObamaCare