Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Mnyb wrote: > I'm no expert but i do think that consistent means that if a resonance > peak shows up in all positions it should really be compensated . If its > in one forget about it . > If the levels differs in the multiple positions find a sensible average > ? That's my thinking , a pro may have a better idea . Ah, yes. Sorry, must be a bit dense today. The frequency for the peaks that occur in multiple measurements are by defintion the same, regardless of which measurement. The size is a different matter, but something simple would probably suffice. Good approach. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > I found a sensible answer to that question. Can't believe I didn't think > of that myself. > > "Dirac Live uses several measurement positions (9 typically) in the > listening room. This way, it is possible to find consistent acoustic > problems. Only these should be corrected." > http://www.dirac.se/en/technologies/dirac-live/technical-description.aspx > > > Of course, they don't mention how they define "consistent". Relative or > absolute difference? Perhaps an absolute difference of +/- 1dB would > suffice for amplitude. But what about the width of the corresponding > frequency band? And what about the shape of the lumps? Or could it > perhaps be possible to define consistency from the filter coefficients? > > > What do the experts (y'all) say? I'm no expert but i do think that consistent means that if a resonance peak shows up in all positions it should really be compensated . If its in one forget about it . If the levels differs in the multiple positions find a sensible average ? That's my thinking , a pro may have a better idea . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > In REW all you can do automatically is averaging multiple measurements. > I wonder if there is a better way of solving that problem automatically? > Optimise with respect to what? I found a sensible answer to that question. Can't believe I didn't think of that myself. "Dirac Live uses several measurement positions (9 typically) in the listening room. This way, it is possible to find consistent acoustic problems. Only these should be corrected." http://www.dirac.se/en/technologies/dirac-live/technical-description.aspx Of course, they don't mention how they define "consistent". Relative or absolute difference? Perhaps an absolute difference of +/- 1dB would suffice for amplitude. But what about the width of the corresponding frequency band? That would have to be relative? Or could it perhaps be possible to define consistency from the filter coefficients? What do the experts (y'all) say? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > Thanks... Along those lines of treating it as multiple stereo channels, > here's a detailed workflow I found: > http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http___www.digitalroomcorrection.hk_/Multichannel_Workflow.html > > Looks like a pain in the backside :-). Hopefully can be done reasonably > quickly once one gets the hang of how this program works! Ah, yes. Pain. Please don't forget to nail all furniture and equipment down, even the cat, so that you don't have to follow this procedure ever again. The nailing also helps when you correct to 20kHz, but then you should probably also fixate your neck with screws, metal plates and rods. And yes. Pain. I found a couple of very instructive general write-ups (gosh, there's a lot to be learned!): Guide to speaker/room correction using freeware and JRiver http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87538.0 Equalizing your home theater system with the nanoAVR and UMIK-1 http://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/equalization-with-nanoavr Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > I have often wondered if it could be done with Cygwin. It would seem > reasonable, but I have not found a port yet and my skill set does not > include such matters. Cygwin gurus! Do ya thang! > > > > http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87579.0 > "There is a description of one process for multichannel on acourate in > the acourate yahoo group (registration required), it boils down to > treating it as a set of stereo channels (l+r, l+c, l+sr etc)." > > With this methodology one could even use REW (which is stereo only), but > it would be quite messy. BruteFIR supports an arbitrary number of > channels. > > But I'll stop yapping about REW and BruteFIR now. :-) Thanks... Along those lines of treating it as multiple stereo channels, here's a detailed workflow I found: http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http___www.digitalroomcorrection.hk_/Multichannel_Workflow.html Looks like a pain in the backside :-). Hopefully can be done reasonably quickly once one gets the hang of how this program works! Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > I've always wondered if BruteFIR can be converted to Windows. I don't > see why not! Anyone out there have done this? I have often wondered if it could be done with Cygwin. It would seem reasonable, but I have not found a port yet and my skill set does not include such matters. Cygwin gurus! Do ya thang! Archimago wrote: > I wasn't clear from the Acourate web site, but is there any issue > creating correction filters for surround sound/5.1+ systems? If it can > do surround, I'm ready to whip out the credit card... http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87579.0 "There is a description of one process for multichannel on acourate in the acourate yahoo group (registration required), it boils down to treating it as a set of stereo channels (l+r, l+c, l+sr etc)." With this methodology one could even use REW (which is stereo only), but it would be quite messy. BruteFIR supports an arbitrary number of channels. But I'll stop yapping about REW and BruteFIR now. :-) Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
krzys wrote: > It definitely can. I saw discussion about it in the Acourate Yahoo > discussion group. One of the treads is : Getting best reproduction from > 5.1 setup using Acourate > My best advice is to contact Uli from his site > http://www.audiovero.de/en/contact-form.php > Chris Sounds good! Likely credit card coming out to play early next week :-) Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
It definitely can. I saw discussion about it in the Acourate Yahoo discussion group. One of the treads is : Getting best reproduction from 5.1 setup using Acourate My best advice is to contact Uli from his site http://www.audiovero.de/en/contact-form.php Chris krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
krzys wrote: > Archimago first I want to thank you for your work comparing different > equipment and samplings and I followed it since I'm an early SB > user (from SB2) but not anymore now. > > There is so much to say on that subject. I will try to summarize. > I switched for Acourate for a lot different reasons. First I had the > stereo only DRC version of Audiolense. When I wanted to go to Digital XO > and I had to made choice between the both A... software. I read > everything I could (there are some comparisons, maybe not complete but > google Acourate vs Audiolense). > I went to Acourate based on some good reports from very knowledgeable > people like Mitchco and Bob Katz, both sound engineers. > I can't compare directly the XO versions. I think that Audiolense is a > very good package, user friendly but a bit too automated. Acourate is > more open but with a long learning curve. There is no manual per se but > Mitchco wrote some articles and the designer, Uli B., helps a lot via > email or via the Yahoo group. Acourate is very powerful, not so friendly > and not for a beginner or for somebody who looks for simplicity. But for > a guy like you ;), no problem. > The results are very good. This is the best sound I ever had and it is > for 4 way with two additional subs and three horns from 250 Hz up.in > a to small room. My friend made the same choice and it uses it just to > DRC his commercial Focal speakers with very nice results too. > > Acourate produces filters in stereo (by channel) wav format perfect for > any convolution engine. I use JRiver with 10 channels convolution. > Chris Thanks for the note Chris! Sounds like you have one heck of a tuned speaker set-up! I'll have to think about trying my hand at this one day :-). I wasn't clear from the Acourate web site, but is there any issue creating correction filters for surround sound/5.1+ systems? If it can do surround, I'm ready to whip out the credit card... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
krzys wrote: > I suggest that anyone interested tries the free and paid software. The > most important is to use DRC at first. I definitely agree. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
You are right in the mass market software context. This software is for niche market, small volume sales and is supported by their creators. In the HiFi world 450 $ are peanuts ;) For me software which does crossovers and DRC for 10 channels at this price is still ok. I'm convinced that this is the most valuable expense in an audio system way ahead of any other piece of equipment. I suggest that anyone interested tries the free and paid software. The most important is to use DRC at first. Chris krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
krzys wrote: > Do you really think that Acourate is expensive at about 450 CDN? I don't > . This is much less than any half decent DAC or any other hifi equipment > (cables!!!) but the effects on sound are bigger by several magnitude . > orders. > If someone can get good results with free DRC then fine, but those > commercial packages are very powerful and friendly and a must in case of > FIR XO which I do. By today's software price standards, 450 is a pretty expensive piece of software - but more importantly, often the open source packages have better functionality (OK, user interface might be more rough, but usually the algorithms are better - just look at SoX). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago first I want to thank you for your work comparing different equipment and samplings and I followed it since I'm an early SB user (from SB2) but not anymore now. There is so much to say on that subject. I will try to summarize. I switched for Acourate for a lot different reasons. First I had the stereo only DRC version of Audiolense. When I wanted to go to Digital XO and I had to made choice between the both A... software. I read everything I could (there are some comparisons, maybe not complete but google Acourate vs Audiolense). I went to Acourate based on some good reports from very knowledgeable people like Mitchco and Bob Katz, both sound engineers. I can't compare directly the XO versions. I think that Audiolense is a very good package, user friendly but a bit too automated. Acourate is more open but with a long learning curve. There is no manual per se but Mitchco wrote some articles and the designer, Uli B., helps a lot via email or via the Yahoo group. Acourate is very powerful, not so friendly and not for a beginner or for somebody who looks for simplicity. But for a guy like you ;), no problem. The results are very good. This is the best sound I ever had and it is for 4 way with two additional subs and three horns from 250 Hz up.in a to small room. My friend made the same choice and it uses it just to DRC his commercial Focal speakers with very nice results too. Acourate produces filters in stereo (by channel) wav format perfect for any convolution engine. I use JRiver with 10 channels convolution. Chris krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
krzys wrote: > Hi guys, I tried DRC and used Audiolense and now Acourate. I never had > success with DRC with my horn system. It is very complicated to get it > right even with DRCdesigner. There is so many variables > Do you really think that Acourate is expensive at about 450 CDN? I don't > . This is much less than any half decent DAC or any other hifi equipment > (cables!!!) but the effects on sound are bigger by several magnitude . > orders. > If someone can get good results with free DRC then fine, but those > commercial packages are very powerful and friendly and a must in case of > FIR XO which I do. > Chris No $450 isn't expensive in itself. Just that I have not seen head to head comparisons with the full package for each one. Would you say Acourate has been better than Audiolense in your experience with sound quality? Curious why you switched... Also, do the Acourate filters play well with BruteFir, JRiver, Inguz? I've certainly been eyeing the Acourate XO package... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Hi guys, I tried DRC and used Audiolense and now Acourate. I never had success with DRC with my horn system. It is very complicated to get it right even with DRCdesigner. There is so many variables Do you really think that Acourate is expensive at about 450 CDN? I don't . This is much less than any half decent DAC or any other hifi equipment (cables!!!) but the effects on sound are bigger by several magnitude . orders. If someone can get good results with free DRC then fine, but those commercial packages are very powerful and friendly and a must in case of FIR XO which I do. Chris krzys's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2256 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > Drawing the target curve is a nice way of creating it. It's hard to > understand the effect of the custom filters without trying them ears on, > but it seems you find them helpful. As far as I understand it, it would > be far more difficult to do that in REW. > Drawing the target curve clearly changes the sound and this can be heard and confirmed with REW when I measure the effect... Of course there are limits to this since not every suck-out can/should be corrected by the DSP. > > You can export the impulse response to a WAV file. I use the WAV with > the LMS plugin BruteFirDrc, which uses the convolution engine BruteFIR, > http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html. BruteFIR only works in > *ix (hum, could that possibly be changed?). It is optimised for Intel, > but someone recompiled it for ARM and it worked. > I've always wondered if BruteFIR can be converted to Windows. I don't see why not! Anyone out there have done this? I looked around earlier this year and could not find Windows binaries before upgrading to JRiver 20. The nice thing with JRiver 20 is that the DSP processing can now be applied to DLNA/UPnP libraries before streaming out. This allows my server computer which has a decently powerful CPU to do all the processing to whatever device I have with the power of the JRiver UI to get the upsampling and DSP chain the way I like. I just have to get the room response, load it up on the server with JRiver running, and away it goes for streaming to whatever DLNA device I have... Note though that I really still HATE DLNA/UPNP since I feel LMS is so much better, faster, more flexible... If someone could build a good DSP engine into it (alas Inguz is too unreliable for me and seems abandoned?), there could be lots of fun to be had! > > In REW all you can do automatically is averaging multiple measurements. > I wonder if there is a better way of solving that problem automatically? > Optimise with respect to what? You could of course override anything > manually. > Hmmm. I'll have to try this out when I have time! > > That would be very interesting. I must say I am a bit skeptic about the > commercial softwares. Some of them comes highly recommended, but I'm not > convinced that those developers know more about filters than others. > (They are also quite pricy. Small companies with low sales volumes, I > guess.) This has been my issue with the commercial DRC software as well... They do seem pricy: Acourate 286 Euro for non-EU country, Dirac $500CAD stereo & $900CAD multichannel, AudioLense at least 165 Euro for basic version to 390 Euro for the XO version. Would be great if someone could compare/contrast and provide an opinion! Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > I see DRCDesigner as a "cheap man's" AudioLense, Acourate, or Dirac. > Simple but reasonable UI, easy way to measure room impulse up to 24/96 > for each stereo channel separately, simple design of target curve and > easy batch creation of FIR filters for convolution plug-ins like the one > in JRiver. Works well and you can customize the "strength" of the > correction used by DRC to calculate these FIR filters. Drawing the target curve is a nice way of creating it. It's hard to understand the effect of the custom filters without trying them ears on, but it seems you find them helpful. As far as I understand it, it would be far more difficult to do that in REW. Archimago wrote: > Although I use REW to do a number of measurements, and in the past have > used it to calculate parametric EQ settings for my room, is it capable > of producing FIR filters these days? You can export the impulse response to a WAV file. I use the WAV with the LMS plugin BruteFirDrc, which uses the convolution engine BruteFIR, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/brutefir.html. BruteFIR only works in *ix (hum, could that possibly be changed?). It is optimised for Intel, but someone recompiled it for ARM and it worked. Archimago wrote: > One limitation of the free DRC/Designer is that only one location can be > measured. For me, I think this is fine for stereo - I just care about > the sweetspot and doubt this is a significant problem. In REW all you can do automatically is averaging multiple measurements. I wonder if there is a better way of solving that problem automatically? Optimise with respect to what? You could of course override anything manually. Archimago wrote: > Has anyone seen a good writeup comparing DRC packages like the > aforementioned AudioLens/Acourate/Dirac vs. DRC? That would be very interesting. I must say I am a bit skeptic about the commercial softwares. Some of them comes highly recommended, but I'm not convinced that those developers know more about filters than others. (They are also quite pricy. Small companies with low sales volumes, I guess.) Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > Hello Archi! > I have never tried DRCDesigner and only just now checked the how-to on > their website. But I'm not sure I understand the benefit of using > DRCDesigner instead of for instance REW (which is incredibly > comprehensive). Does it make better measurements or calculations? Or is > it perhaps the convolver plugin you are after? I see DRCDesigner as a "cheap man's" AudioLense, Acourate, or Dirac. Simple but reasonable UI, easy way to measure room impulse up to 24/96 for each stereo channel separately, simple design of target curve and easy batch creation of FIR filters for convolution plug-ins like the one in JRiver. Works well and you can customize the "strength" of the correction used by DRC to calculate these FIR filters. Although I use REW to do a number of measurements, and in the past have used it to calculate parametric EQ settings for my room, is it capable of producing FIR filters these days? JRiver DSP upsamples my music and calculations performed in 96kHz... Perfect for the Transporter on playback. I like the results better than my Onkyo's Odyssey MultEQ XT (not XT32) result. Has anyone seen a good writeup comparing DRC packages like the aforementioned AudioLens/Acourate/Dirac vs. DRC? One limitation of the free DRC/Designer is that only one location can be measured. For me, I think this is fine for stereo - I just care about the sweetspot and doubt this is a significant problem. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > Hey Gandhi, > I used REW and parametric EQ until earlier this year. I used to just > apply 20-150Hz or so; leaving the rest of the mids and trebles since it > was relatively accurate already. > > Last few months, I've been use DRCDesigner to do the measurements, > target curve adjustment and it incorporates the free DRC package to > calculate the filters... I've experimented a bit and generally like the > traditional B&K target curves (either B&K1 or B&K3) and I've had great > success with applying correction through the whole 20Hz-20kHz spectrum! > I've been using the JRiver convolution engine (a bit of a twisted route > with DLNA/UPnP to access the Squeezebox library). > > Have used REW to verify the frequency response improvement as well as > verified significantly improved impulse response in the time domain with > each channel so know that what I'm hearing corresponds to objective > accuracy. :-) Hello Archi! I have never tried DRCDesigner and only just now checked the how-to on their website. But I'm not sure I understand the benefit of using DRCDesigner instead of for instance REW (which is incredibly comprehensive). Does it make better measurements or calculations? Or is it perhaps the convolver plugin you are after? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > Yes, REW and BrutefirDRC are surprisingly efficient. I would never have > imagined. I would actually have paid a lot for a commercial solution to > get this result, but as I didn't know the power of DRC (and I'm also > cheap), I figured I'd try free software first. Sometimes you're just > lucky! > > The bottom range would otherwise be very difficult to fix without large > bass traps, which is not an option here. > > > > I really should have some panels too, mainly behind my head (small > room), but I try to manage without. Having a good bookshelf, a decent > carpet and fluffy furniture helps. Though I'm sure it would be very > beneficial behind me, I will never ever resort to 'audiophile art'! :-) > Are your panels large or are they just to fix the sweet spot? Do they > help outside it? Is it a big improvement? > > > > Amen to that. > > What frequency range do you correct and are you happy with it? I only do > 20-200Hz, but there's a lump at 300-400Hz which I should probably fix > too, although I'm afraid of fiddling too much with the frequencies of > the human voice. Do you have any recommendations or rules of thumb? Have > you experimented? Hey Gandhi, I used REW and parametric EQ until earlier this year. I used to just apply 20-150Hz or so; leaving the rest of the mids and trebles since it was relatively accurate already. Last few months, I've been use DRCDesigner to do the measurements, target curve adjustment and it incorporates the free DRC package to calculate the filters... I've experimented a bit and generally like the traditional B&K target curves (either B&K1 or B&K3) and I've had great success with applying correction through the whole 20Hz-20kHz spectrum! I've been using the JRiver convolution engine (a bit of a twisted route with DLNA/UPnP to access the Squeezebox library). Have used REW to verify the frequency response improvement as well as verified significantly improved impulse response in the time domain with each channel so know that what I'm hearing corresponds to objective accuracy. :-) Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > Wow. Fantastic results Gandhi! Yes, REW and BrutefirDRC are surprisingly efficient. I would never have imagined. I would actually have paid a lot for a commercial solution to get this result, but as I didn't know the power of DRC (and I'm also cheap), I figured I'd try free software first. Sometimes you're just lucky! The bottom range would otherwise be very difficult to fix without large bass traps, which is not an option here. Archimago wrote: > Likewise, although not to +/-1dB, more like +/-3 dB for me, the > difference is remarkable. I already have a couple of side panels to tame > 1st reflections from glass in-wall storage for my > CD/Blu-rays/headphones/etc. which made a difference with reverberation > time in the mid-range. Also have my LP collection to the back to act as > scatter. But those panels would do nothing with bass unevenness. > > To achieve what was doable with DRC I suspect would have been very > costly and not particularly esthetically pleasing to most rooms! > I really should have some panels too, mainly behind my head (small room), but I try to manage without. Having a good bookshelf, a decent carpet and fluffy furniture helps. Though I'm sure it would be very beneficial behind me, I will never ever resort to 'audiophile art'! :-) Are your panels large or are they just to fix the sweet spot? Do they help outside it? Is it a big improvement? Archimago wrote: > Another thing that's great with DRC FIR filters is the ability to do > time-domain corrections. This definitely has improved soundstage and > imaging in my room beyond flat frequency response and channel balance. Amen to that. What frequency range do you correct and are you happy with it? I only do 20-200Hz, but there's a lump at 300-400Hz which I should probably fix too, although I'm afraid of fiddling too much with the frequencies of the human voice. Do you have any recommendations or rules of thumb? Have you experimented? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > In my case I have tamed the bass in my too small room from -1dB ... +6dB > to a quite flat one, +/- 1dB. It would be very hard not to notice the > improvement. And it's interesting to see it quantified. Wow. Fantastic results Gandhi! Likewise, although not to +/-1dB, more like +/-3 dB for me, the difference is remarkable. I already have a couple of side panels to tame 1st reflections from glass in-wall storage for my CD/Blu-rays/headphones/etc. which made a difference with reverberation time in the mid-range. Also have my LP collection to the back to act as scatter. But those panels would do nothing with bass unevenness. To achieve what was doable with DRC I suspect would have been very costly and not particularly esthetically pleasing to most rooms! Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > That's often right, but I'd say that it depends on the order of > magnitude of change. In my case I have tamed the bass from -1dB ... +6dB to a quite flat one, +/- 1dB. It would be very hard not to hear. And it's interesting to see it quantified. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Julf wrote: > And for the believer, seeing the graphs makes it even more certain that > they will hear the improvements... :) > > Numbers and graphs don't actually "prove" any audible improvement. That's often right, but I'd say that it depends on the order of magnitude of change. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > Another advantage is that in the process one measures and quantifies the > sound quality and usually present it in a visual way. After applying a > suitable filter you can usually also see the improvement visually. DRC > gives audible results, often substantial, but for the skeptic who likes > seeing those in numbers, the process has inherent proof. And for the believer, seeing the graphs makes it even more certain that they will hear the improvements... :) Numbers and graphs don't actually "prove" any audible improvement. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
DRC is the poor man's 'room full of fluffy stuff'. If you have the time, space and funding to build a dedicated listening room with the help of audio engineers going bananas, I presume you don't need DRC at all. But there might be contraints, financial or perhaps estethic. DRC can help a lot, but not all the way. There are different problems in audio with different orders of magnitude. Listening room acoustics is high up on that scale and DRC can help correcting that problem. Much, much more rewarding per monetary unit and time spent than for instance replacing an amplifier with THD 0.005% to one with 0.0005% (which also would be pointless). Another advantage is that in the process one measures and quantifies the sound quality and usually present it in a visual way. After applying a suitable filter you can usually also see the improvement visually. DRC gives audible results, often substantial, but for the skeptic who likes seeing those in numbers, the process has inherent proof. So, why is DRC not everywhere already? As it's possible to automate it, there is no hard reason. At least according to my head, where I live. Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
jh901 wrote: > I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can > deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell > you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it > takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special > experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system' > may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream. > Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin > records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's > nothing good on"!? > > Finally, I can't permanently outright dismiss active room correction and > DSP even in a "purist" system. Times change and technology improves. > Mistakes are sometimes made along the way, but then there's a > breakthrough. I won't do myself any favors by sealing the door shut on > methods to enhance the listening experience. I would suggest *not dismissing the power of DRC at all*! IMO, it has proven essential for me in listening these days. I think this is especially true with stereo "audiophile" systems because there is only one sweet spot; and that sweet spot can be made amazingly sweet! Improved accuracy of frequency and time domain issues are very obvious - more so than any DAC / amp / pre-amp change IMO. And infinitely more beneficial than cable changes the way I see things. I've actually been able to achieve some excellent sound even with the free DRC software and back in the old days Inguz with Squeezebox so there's no need to spend a ton of money to get some major benefits already. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
arnyk wrote: > Typical of self-defeating audiophile prejudices. > > arnyk wrote: > > > The potential audible benefits of: > > is zero. No comment. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
jh901 wrote: > I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can > deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell > you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it > takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special > experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system' > may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream. > Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin > records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's > nothing good on"!? > > Finally, I can't permanently outright dismiss active room correction and > DSP even in a "purist" system. Times change and technology improves. > Mistakes are sometimes made along the way, but then there's a > breakthrough. I won't do myself any favors by sealing the door shut on > methods to enhance the listening experience. I could not agree more. While this thread is has been focused on the all-in-one speaker "solution" there are many other areas where digital technology can be a game changer. For example the lack of physical media required to distribute music, e.g. direct downloads, the ability to make bit perfect copies, e.g. digital piracy, and the ability to have one copy provide audio for many listeners, e.g. streaming. Yes I know all of these things are here today and not in the future but since the high end audio world seems to be about 10 years behind the rest of the audio world these digital wonders have barely made a dent in high end audio. To me it seems that for every step forward high end audio appears to take two steps back. So in the case of streaming audio where the Squeezebox system provided many workable solutions the high end audio world is mired in the laptop -> USB cable -> USB DAC -> amp -> speakers paradigm with the lusting after DSD thrown in for even more confusion. Go figure. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
jh901 wrote: > The basics of Audyssey in modern AVRs/AVPs are about as easy as one > could expect. I'm personally not interested in this sort of calibration > or DSP for audiophile hi-end stereo systems. I'm mostly interested in > the digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible > integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit > (direct to power amp). I'd certainly like for there to be a "digital > world" where the DSD layer of SACDs can be ripped legally and just as > easily as the PCM layer can. Typical of self-defeating audiophile prejudices. The potential audible benefits of: Digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit (direct to power amp). is zero. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
jh901 wrote: > I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can > deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell > you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it > takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special > experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system' > may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream. > Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin > records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's > nothing good on"!? > Ain't gonna happen. If you haven't noticed, its an Audio/Video not an Audio-only world, and the modern generation has little time for audio-only reproduction systems, except possibly as portable systems and lately not even that. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
ralphpnj wrote: > I can understand your dismissal of using DSP in an "audiophile hi-end > stereo system" but what about using DSP and DRC (digital room > correction) to produce a stereo system that is not only much less costly > but also much less complicated (music server + an all-in-one stereo > speaker system) than a more traditional hi-end stereo system and yet, > now here is the kicker, sounds at least as good as the traditional > stereo system. Good sound that affordable for many more people, is that > so bad? I don't necessarily have an argument against the notion that DSP+DRC can deliver good sound that is affordable to nearly everyone. I can tell you for sure that I wouldn't anyone to believe for one second that it takes the investment I've made in order to create a rather special experience. The 'music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system' may very well may bring the home stereo system back into the mainstream. Wouldn't it be great if ten or twenty percent more families would spin records together rather than watching tv on those nights when "there's nothing good on"!? Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
jh901 wrote: > The basics of Audyssey in modern AVRs/AVPs are about as easy as one > could expect. I'm personally not interested in this sort of calibration > or DSP for audiophile hi-end stereo systems. I'm mostly interested in > the digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible > integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit > (direct to power amp). I'd certainly like for there to be a "digital > world" where the DSD layer of SACDs can be ripped legally and just as > easily as the PCM layer can. I can understand your dismissal of using DSP in an "audiophile hi-end stereo system" but what about using DSP and DRC (digital room correction) to produce a stereo system that is not only much less costly but also much less complicated (music server + an all-in-one stereo speaker system) than a more traditional hi-end stereo system and yet, now here is the kicker, sounds at least as good as the traditional stereo system. Good sound that affordable for many more people, is that so bad? Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
The basics of Audyssey in modern AVRs/AVPs are about as easy as one could expect. I'm personally not interested in this sort of calibration or DSP for audiophile hi-end stereo systems. I'm mostly interested in the digital transport developments, USB DACs, and the possible integration of the traditional line level pre-amp into the DAC unit (direct to power amp). I'd certainly like for their to be a "digital world" where the DSD layer of SACDs can be ripped legally and just as easily as the PCM layer can. Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III __Acoustic treatment: DIY Cylinder Bass traps | "Rule of Thirds" for speaker & sweet spot position __Speaker Cables: Analysis Plus Big Silver Oval | Shunyata Venom series power cords and power conditioning jh901's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18175 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > You have already answered some of my vague questions. But to be more > specific, they were regarding properties like for instance ease of > setting up, getting a simple result, getting a really good result for > one or perhaps even several points in the room, getting detailed > information about the measurements and corrections, ease of changing the > response manually, ... Also the technology behind the scenes, the kind > of filters used, price, availability (DRC software often seem to be > developed by very small companies and therefore releasing new versions, > when needed, might not happen often enough or at all), ... I know you > like writing long posts, but this might be a little much even for you. > ;-) > > > Audysey setup: > > Plug Audysey Mic into front panel jack, move it to first measurement > position. > > Enter Audyssey setup mode via remote control, measure first location. > n. > > Move mic to next location, start next measurement (repeat). > > Stop measuring, Audyssey sets up AVR. > > Depending on what level of Audyssey your AVR has, various options may > exist for manually overriding setup parameters > > > > > > > > My point is that two boxes with DSP could be replaced by one box with > > DSP, both for simplicity and cost. > > > > > > It is not assured that simplicity or cost savings would be obtained by > shring logic.. DSP chips are way down in price. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
arnyk wrote: > The grounds for comparing system optimization software do not appear to > be specified in detail. You have already answered some of my vague questions. But to be more specific, they were regarding properties like for instance ease of setting up, getting a simple result, getting a really good result for one or perhaps even several points in the room, getting detailed information about the measurements and corrections, ease of changing the response manually, ... Also the technology behind the scenes, the kind of filters used, price, availability (DRC software often seem to be developed by very small companies and therefore releasing new versions, when needed, might not happen often enough or at all), ... I know you like writing long posts, but this might be a little much even for you. ;-) arnyk wrote: > What might the second box be? A system always has to have speakers, and > these stand alone and are uninvolved with the system optimization > process, other than that they work pretty well. My point is that two boxes with DSP could be replaced by one box with DSP, both for simplicity and cost. My ideal system would be something like "Meridian DSP with integrated automatic DRC" (but less ugly, much less). By that I mean speakers with digital in, a DSP/DAC/amp per speaker element AND a DSP for room correction. To simplify the process there should ALSO be integrated automated room measurement. One box in total. It could then be fed from any digital source component. (Well, I can dream, can't I...?) Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > Such an AVR with integrated room eq seems quite cost effective. Would it > be possible to expand a bit upon the upsides of the AVR, Audyssey and > the speakers? > The upside is simple - the technology works, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and doesn't take an act of Congress to make work. It is widely accepted among audiophiles. > > Perhaps compared to some other convolvers and/or other active speakers > with DSP? > The grounds for comparing system optimization software do not appear to be specified in detail. > > (I use REW for measuring and BruteFirDRC for convolving. But it's a bit > of a hassle to set it up. Keeping it alive also takes a bit of > tinkering. The amp and speakers are plain stupid ones (analog/passive), > so they have nothing to offer but quality.) > Automated system optimization facilities such as Audyssey, MCACC and YPAO are built in to AVRs at all price levels above the most basic entry point. A beneficial result can be obtained with about 5 minutes of simple methodical work. > > It would be nice to have a completely self-contained solution but your > two-box solution is perhaps as simple as it gets at this point in > history? > What might the second box be? A system always has to have speakers, and these stand alone and are uninvolved with the system optimization process, other than that they work pretty well. > > Active speakers with DSP is only a small leap from ditto including DRC. > There's money to be made here! Who'll take the market first? I think the next step would be speakers and AVRs that are connected via a digital link. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
DJanGo wrote: > Hmm eg. find some "not Radio Edits (shortend stuff)" from Ricardo > Villalobos. > pretty sure you want find more than 50% of his tracks > /edit and these tracks, you dont find - are the cool tracks You are of course right - there will always be special cases. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
On the flip side (I believe in an effort to promote CD) take albums like Dire Straits / Brothers in Arms (1985) where the CD is almost 8 minutes longer than the vinyl. Or the original CD of Tom Petty / Full Moon Fever (1989) where there's a short hidden track in the pre-gap of track 6 where Tom Petty says "Hello, CD listeners. We've come to the point in this album where those listening on cassette, or record, will have to stand up, or sit down, and turn over the record, or tape. In fairness to those listeners, we'll now take a few seconds before we begin side two. [pause] Thank you. Here's side two." 2 Duets - 1 for upstairs and 1 for downstairs Rock Solid with LMS 7.8.0 and WHS 2011 w3wilkes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22973 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Julf wrote: > Not really. All the new music released on vinyl is also released in > digital form - no artists wants to be left out from itunes and spotify. Hmm eg. find some "not Radio Edits (shortend stuff)" from Carlos Villalobos. pretty sure you want find more than 50% of his tracks Gruss Jan DJanGo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1516 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
DJanGo wrote: > Some Years later we didnt buy Vinyls anymore and tried the new Media > called CD and get most of the "old" Music on the newer "louder" / better > Medium. Initially it was just better, not louder. Louder came because of radio, not physical media (apart from the fact that the physical limitations of vinyl didn't allow very loud). > IF you want some cool Music (not that Mainstreamstuff) = you had to buy > Vinyl's. Not really. All the new music released on vinyl is also released in digital form - no artists wants to be left out from itunes and spotify. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
I am not sure Long long Time ago, i can still remember:D We bought Vinyls and Audiocassettes The Tapes were later used in a small box called Walkman and all of "us cool guys" used some Headphone, that you didnt see. Some Years later we didnt buy Vinyls anymore and tried the new Media called CD and get most of the "old" Music on the newer "louder" / better Medium. Some Freaks like me and you didnt sell their Turntables but just a few of us buyed new Vinyls. Now (2015) it looks like: Smartphone with mp3/Flac with Headphones bigger than my old AKG K240 Sextett. IF you want some cool Music (not that Mainstreamstuff) - you had to buy Vinyl's. Vinyls up to 300 gramm (sorry didnt know the oversea Measurement) nearly the same weight as the older 78 rpm Schellacks. In Mind of this quick and dirty expose - who will know where the future will end? Gruss Jan DJanGo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1516 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
arnyk wrote: > I'm trying to figure out what is described above that I don't already > have in place. > > My system offers room, speaker, and system correction via Audyssey which > is a standard feature of the AVR. > > My loudspeakers are based on switchmode power supplies, power amps, and > internal DSP optimization of the whole speaker system. > > My AVR, my BD player and my cable system DVR all incorporate > full-function network music players for access to both my LAN and the > entire Internet. Such an AVR with integrated room eq seems quite cost effective. Would it be possible to expand a bit upon the upsides of the AVR, Audyssey and the speakers? Perhaps compared to some other convolvers and/or other active speakers with DSP? (I use REW for measuring and BruteFirDRC for convolving. But it's a bit of a hassle to set it up. Keeping it alive also takes a bit of tinkering. The amp and speakers are plain stupid ones (analog/passive), so they have nothing to offer but quality.) It would be nice to have a completely self-contained solution but your two-box solution is perhaps as simple as it gets at this point in history? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
ralphpnj wrote: > Since many of the recent threads on this sub section have quickly > devolved into flame wars and name calling perhaps a thread with less > "audiophile" baggage might result in a more meaningful and worthwhile > discussion. Let's see how this subject works out, shall we. > > The world of audio is changing in many ways due to the wide spread > acceptance and use of digital audio. One example of this is the way that > streaming audio has changed the way we think about music collections, > i.e. one central music library location (server) feeding many separate > audio systems and all of it controlled by a smart phone or tablet. > > One of the great features of digital audio is that digital audio offers > the ability to re-engineer the entire audio playback chain from top to > bottom. This new approach to playback can be something as simple as room > correction via a digital signal processor or something as radical as a > digital audio server (music server) feeding digitally active speakers > without need for any of the more traditional audio equipment (DACs, > pre-amps, power amps and lots of wires and interconnects). By digitally > active speakers I am referring to speakers that contain all the > components (DSPs, DACs and amps) right in the speaker and that can be > controlled from a computer, tablet or smart phone. Now the pro audio > world has been moving in this direction for quite some time but when > might the high end audio world take this step and what might the results > look and sound like? > > Edit: > > There is a good example of the direction that digital audio is moving > high end audio in the Bel Canto Design Black amplification system > featured in the July 2015 issue of Stereophile magazine. > (http://www.belcantodesign.com/black/) I'm trying to figure out what is described above that I don't already have in place. My system offers room, speaker, and system correction via Audyssey which is a standard feature of the AVR. My loudspeakers are based on switchmode power supplies, power amps, and internal DSP optimization of the whole speaker system. My AVR, my BD player and my cable system DVR all incorporate full-function network music players for access to both my LAN and the entire Internet. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Gandhi wrote: > The room eq seems to be in the form of an optional software package > which enables you to apply filtering. Thus I conclude that the > measurements must be made using other equipment. That takes a lot of > work and you need additional hardware as well as software. The filtering > part is actually the easy part. If this functionality isn't somehow > integrated in this loudspeaker system, then it's not such a salvation, > in my humble opinion. I find room eq very important in my small > listening room, it makes a substantial improvement in the lower end. > > As much as I hate to link to TAS, this is the only information I've > found: > http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/avantgarde-acoustic-zero-1-pro-loudspeaker/?page=4 > > Does anyone know anything more about this? Interesting, very interesting. Thanks for the additional information. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
hansiebrand wrote: > Room adjustment/equalization* 100 EQs, each with 16,000 > frequency points > http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/tech-specs.html The room eq seems to be in the form of an optional software package which enables you to apply filtering. Thus I conclude that the measurements must be made using other equipment. That takes a lot of work and you need additional hardware as well as software. The filtering part is actually the easy part. If this functionality isn't somehow integrated in this loudspeaker system, then it's not such a salvation, in my humble opinion. I find room eq very important in my small listening room, it makes a substantial improvement in the lower end. As much as I hate to link to TAS, this is the only information I've found: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/avantgarde-acoustic-zero-1-pro-loudspeaker/?page=4 Does anyone know anything more about this? Best Regards, Gandhi not often enough well recorded and mastered cds *|* dbpoweramp with accuraterip *|* flac *|* fanless asrock z77e-itx intel i5-3570t *|* ubuntu 12.04.1 lts 32-bit *|* lms 7.8.0 *|* brutefirdrc 3.0 (rewv5) *|* transporter (balanced out) *|* thule ia252b *|* audio physic scorpio *|* no fancy cables. *+* also some booms. *+* harmony 525s for them all, including waking the server from s3. Gandhi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58909 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
hansiebrand wrote: > Room adjustment/equalization* 100 EQs, each with 16,000 > frequency points > > http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/tech-specs.html Apesbrain wrote: > US$15,000 the pair: > http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/trio-prices-en.html?file=tl_files/avantgarde/downloads/produkte/allgemein/preise/en/PRICES_MSRP_USD_2014-07-01.pdf > > Pretty steep but less expensive "digital" speakers are available from a > number of established players including Meridian, Dynaudio, AudioEngine, > Quad, and KEF. The future would look very interesting should these > designs incorporate room correction! Apparently the ZERO 1s do handle room correction - see the first post quoted above. And these days $15,000 for a pair of audiophile speakers is just about the entry point plus with the ZERO 1s there are no DSPs, DACs, pre and power amps and cables to buy. So depending on just how good they sound that $15K doesn't seem all that outrageous. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Julf wrote: > Well, coming from Avantgarde, it will probably be be priced at a > reassuringly expensive price point that might add to the credibility > among audiophiles US$15,000 the pair: http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/trio-prices-en.html?file=tl_files/avantgarde/downloads/produkte/allgemein/preise/en/PRICES_MSRP_USD_2014-07-01.pdf Pretty steep but less expensive "digital" speakers are available from a number of established players including Meridian, Dynaudio, AudioEngine, Quad, and KEF. The future would look very interesting should these designs incorporate room correction! Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
ralphpnj wrote: > I really miss haring mit ui (just haring no broodje). No broodje but also no ui! The ui is only used to mask the slight rancid taste when the haring is getting a bit older. But a 'nieuwe haring' should be appreciated without any distracting add-ons! The 'Hollandse Nieuwe' is actually a bit late this season. It should have been available the 10'th of June but the haring was not 'vet' enough to earn the title 'Hollandse Nieuwe'. I will report back when I got a taste :p hansiebrand's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=62843 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
hansiebrand wrote: > You are welcome. > > Greetings from the Netherlands. How is the herring this year? I really miss haring mit ui (just haring no broodje). Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
ralphpnj wrote: > Thanks! You are welcome. Greetings from the Netherlands. hansiebrand's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=62843 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
hansiebrand wrote: > Room adjustment/equalization* 100 EQs, each with 16,000 > frequency points > > http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/tech-specs.html Thanks! Now I just have to start saving my hundred dollar bills since trying to save pennies, as the expression normally goes, would be pointless and take my forever (squared). Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
artee wrote: > I've got a fairly vanilla setup - LMS running on a Synology NAS, > Transporter, Musical Fidelity analogue amp, B&W analogue speakers. I > went from cable skeptic, to believer, back to skeptic (and have some of > the cables still...). > > I think that the biggest gains to be had in our digital, streaming world > are in the speaker and room correction, but am not clear if there is a > benefit in having the RC in the speaker vs handled externally by > something like the 'Lyngdorf TDAI-2170' > (http://www.lyngdorf.com/products//tdai-2170) where the RC is handled in > the digital amp and then can be output to digital speakers. > > Does anyone here have experience/recommendations of either approach? > Meridian used to be my aspirational setup, as they've been doing most of > this stuff for years (as Mnyb has said). Hopefully there are more cost > effective ways to solve the problem One reason I can think of for doing all the DSP, i.e. room correction and the processing required for each speaker driver, is that it could result in one less processing stage and remain a truly all in one system. I guess to go truly "outside the box" of traditional audio instead of the system being designed and built by one manufacturer, ideally the system would be a partnership between several different manufacturers, each with their own area of expertise. One to handle the DSP and maybe the DAC, another to do the amplification and a third for the speaker drivers. Why not dream big? Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
ralphpnj wrote: > I'll respond to your second paragraph first - All in one speakers like > the ZERO 1 could and, most likely, would cause quite a bit unrest in the > high end audio world. No expensive DACs, pre-amps, power amps and cables > to buy would certainly represent a paradigm shift in the world of high > end audio and there's a good chance that the ZERO 1 would not be given > the same respect that more traditional audio components receive. Class D > amps, lack of flexibility, etc. would be just the start. However > Avantgarde Acoustics should be praised for being different and daring. > > I read through the information on the Avantgarde Acoustics web site > regarding the ZERO 1 system but I could not discern if the system is > capable of doing room correction along with the digital signal > processing being done for the individual speaker drivers and amps. Now > that would be a real game changer - an all in one speaker system similar > to the ZERO 1 (if the ZERO 1 is, indeed not capable of doing room > correction within the DSP) that not only uses digital signal processing > to optimize each individual speaker driver but also optimizes the entire > system based on the room and the placement of the speakers within the > room. And if the system/speakers could use LMS and iPeng I would think > that I died and went to heaven. I've got a fairly vanilla setup - LMS running on a Synology NAS, Musical Fidelity analogue amp, B&W analogue speakers. I went from cable skeptic, to believer, back to skeptic (and have some of the cables still...). I think that the biggest gains to be had in our digital, streaming world are in the speaker and room correction, but am not clear if there is a benefit in having the RC in the speaker vs handled externally by something like the 'Lyngdorf TDAI-2170' (http://www.lyngdorf.com/products//tdai-2170) where the RC is handled in the digital amp and then can be output to digital speakers. Does anyone here have experience/recommendations of either approach? Meridian used to be my aspirational setup, as they've been doing most of this stuff for years (as Mnyb has said). Hopefully there are more cost effective ways to solve the problem artee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Mnyb wrote: > Now genelec speakers looks like Moomin Maybe it is not entirely coincidental that both come from the same country :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Happy to se the gauntlet passed to some other than Meridian , which I own . Meridian have done this since the 90's but they are by now a luxury brand and quite expensive . I do like the sound of my meridian equipment but I'm convinced it can be done cheaper and better by now . I think genelec also offer some consumer friendly 5.1 solutions . my hifi dealer told me that you can use a meridian HD621 to convert hdmi to discrete digital outputs ? Or they might be another solution for that . Now genelec speakers looks like Moomin and the subwoofers like air humidifiers :) but they can sound impressive History lesson by 2004 when I bought the DVDA player and Souround processor Meridian was about the only ones that feed discrete 5.1 24/96 digital signals from their DVDA player further down the chain trough their processor to the speakers in most other solutions both SACD and DVDA was converted to analog in the player , often due to paranoid licensing issues ( irrational fear of piracy ) ? But that's all obsolete by now we move on . We had an old tread on active digital speakers I do think we have even more to pick from . As speakers rarely can be totally neutral and transparent and they also interact with an to the designer unknown acoustic ( he can make educated guesses ) there will always be a matter of taste . So more brands on this scene will widen the audience . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > I can certainly see myself owning something like the ZERO 1 in the > future if I want to reset the system! All-in-one systems like these will > allow the designers to optimize all the parts for sound quality and > provide a neat tidy package. Certainly my wife would already appreciate > something like this in our living area especially if she can just stream > whatever off her phone without hassle. > > I have no doubt that it would sound excellent. Given that this is the > audiophile subforum, the main question I do wonder about is if it will > be afforded with the same -respect-. Would streaming through the Airport > Express be something that the traditional audiophiles see as on par with > the same quality out of wired transmission? There's also the loss of > flexibility; you can't just switch out amps and change the DAC at > leisure although I guess it might be interesting to have a modular > design... I'll respond to your second paragraph first - All in one speakers like the ZERO 1 could and, most likely, would cause quite a bit unrest in the high end audio world. No expensive DACs, pre-amps, power amps and cables to buy would certainly represent a paradigm shift in the world of high end audio and there's a good chance that the ZERO 1 would not be given the same respect that more traditional audio components receive. Class D amps, lack of flexibility, etc. would be just the start. However Avantgarde Acoustics should be praised for being different and daring. I read through the information on the Avantgarde Acoustics web site regarding the ZERO 1 system but I could not discern if the system is capable of doing room correction along with the digital signal processing being done for the individual speaker drivers and amps. Now that would be a real game changer - an all in one speaker system similar to the ZERO 1 (if the ZERO 1 is, indeed not capable of doing room correction within the DSP) that not only uses digital signal processing to optimize each individual speaker driver but also optimizes the entire system based on the room and the placement of the speakers within the room. And if the system/speakers could use LMS and iPeng I would think that I died and went to heaven. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Wombat wrote: > Not only because they are around the corner but for the simple attempt > not often found at these high-end vendors i like Avantgarde Acoustics > ZERO 1 http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/zero-einfach.html > No fancy peripherals needed just something easily available as Airport > Express to feed them. Walking a bit out on a limb here (i.e., NOT and audiophile...), but this type of solution seems like the right path to me. The loudspeakers are usually the most difficult part of the audio system design, especially with the "typical" approach of feeding a hi-level full-range analog signal into a passive R/C set of filters to perform the cross-over into the transducers optimized for particular frequency bands. Reading the white-paper on the Squeezebox Boom design was something of an eye-opener. Keep the full-range signal digital, use DSP to perform the cross-over, use separate DAC outputs to individual amplifiers for each transducer. The amplifier/transducer can be optimized for the frequency range needed. The DSP filtering can be optimized much more than any analog filter, and provide responses not possible with R/C filters. The physical design of the speakers is still something of an "art", but the active approach seems to make so much sense! tcutting's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17402 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Archimago wrote: > I have no doubt that it would sound excellent. Given that this is the > audiophile subforum, the main question I do wonder about is if it will > be afforded with the same -respect-. Would streaming through the Airport > Express be something that the traditional audiophiles see as on par with > the same quality out of wired transmission? There's also the loss of > flexibility; you can't just switch out amps and change the DAC at > leisure although I guess it might be interesting to have a modular > design... Well, coming from Avantgarde, it will probably be be priced at a reassuringly expensive price point that might add to the credibility among audiophiles "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
I can certainly see myself owning something like the ZERO 1 in the future if I want to reset the system! All-in-one systems like these will allow the designers to optimize all the parts for sound quality and provide a neat tidy package. Certainly my wife would already appreciate something like this in our living area especially if she can just stream whatever off her phone without hassle. I have no doubt that it would sound excellent. Given that this is the audiophile subforum, the main question I do wonder about is if it will be afforded with the same -respect-. Would streaming through the Airport Express be something that the traditional audiophiles see as on par with the same quality out of wired transmission? There's also the loss of flexibility; you can't just switch out amps and change the DAC at leisure although I guess it might be interesting to have a modular design... Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] What The Future Of Audio Might Look Like In A Digital World
Not only because they are around the corner but for the simple attempt not often found at these high-end vendors i like Avantgarde Acoustics ZERO 1 http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/zero1/_en/zero-einfach.html No fancy peripherals needed just something easily available as Airport Express to feed them. Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103847 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
