RE: [Aus-soaring] UK Accident Report

[Matthew Gage]

It's best to read the actual report.
 
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/august_2005/ask13_glider__fwn.cfm 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian 
WadeSent: Thursday, 15 September 2005 07:22To: CGC List; 
DDSC members CHAT; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [Aus-soaring] 
UK Accident Report

The following is from a UK newspaper article.  
There is a message here for everyone!
 

Glider crash caused by student’s camera 
By Rachel Sixsmith
A MAN'S first-ever gliding lesson turn into a disaster when his wayward 
camera blocked the controls of the glider.
The plane came down at Wycombe Air Park after a student's camera became 
wedged between the cockpit and the controls, a Government investigation has 
revealed.
The student, who was given the lesson as a gift, was the last of a party of 
two friends to go up in a glider at the Booker-based air park, at 4.45pm, on 
August 8, last year.
The Government's Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB) found that the 
camera blocked the instructor's controls and caused the tandem glider to 
stall.
The report said: "The glider dropped its wing, and hit the ground before 
bouncing into the air again injuring the student's legs and permanently ruining 
the vehicle.
An AAIB spokesman said the camera moved rearwards and became lodged in the 
gap between the cockpit floor and the front seat control column as the glider 
accelerated and "bounced" over the runway surface during the take-off run at 
Booker.
He added: "When the instructor attempted to move the control column forward, 
as the glider started to pitch up, he was prevented from doing so by the 
presence of the camera."
The group of friends were given a British Gliding Association (BGA) safety 
pamphlet which warns people to secure all of their loose objects during 
flights.
However, there was no requirement for the students to read this literature 
before the lesson.
And the report revealed that the pilot did not notice the student place his 
camera on the floor.
An AAIB spokesman said: "The instructor stated that he was not aware that the 
student had a loose article a camera and did not brief him accordingly.
He continued: "Nor was he aware of any procedures for doing so.
"It seems that a tendency to overlook the BGA guidance relating to loose 
articles may not have been unique to this instructor."
--
Brian Wade 

Personal Computer ConceptsControl SPAM with MailWasher Pro 
Uniform Timehttp://www.uniformtime.com.au
PO Box 114 INDOOROOPILLY QLD 4068Ph: 07 3371 2944 Fax: 07 
3870 4103
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RE: [Aus-soaring] EW Logger and USB-Serial Adapters

[Matthew Gage]

Yes, but I borrowed it, and can't remember who from or the make/model.

I have 3, 2 don't work at all, although are fine with a Garmin, the 3rd
works to change the date and declaration, but won't download a trace.

EW will sell you one that they say they have tested. It might be worth
calling them to get the details.

I too would love to know which to buy
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 24 October 2005 16:21
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] EW Logger and USB-Serial Adapters

Folks,
  Has anyone had any success in getting an EW Model D Logger to talk to
a computer via a USB to RS232 serial adapter?  I've tried two different
adapters, and neither works properly. I've checked everything else in the
system on a desk top computer (with a real serial port), and it all works,
but my new laptop daoesn't have a serial port!

If you have been successful, I'd love to know how you did it, and the
make/model of the adapter

David Villiers
VH-GMP


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RE: [Aus-soaring] A boring day - a good story.

[Matthew Gage]

Good to hear.

My ex-syndicate partner in the UK was a paraplegic, who after an evening out
organised by some group, decided to learn. He designed and helped install
hand controls to a blanic (I think), and having gone solo bought into an
open cirrus and modified that, finishing up with the standard cirrus I now
have, which has a very simple hand control for the rudder that is removed
when he is not flying. The airbrakes are notched so they can be set in about
4 positions and left to assist when landing.

The only issue was when he out landed, which didn't put him off at all, and
he did regularly.

Flying was one of the few places his disability ceased to exist.

Hope you see them again.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J Hudson
Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 21:33
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] A boring day - a good story.

I agree with Brett,
A great news story - there should be more of it.

John Hudson

- Original Message -
From: "Brett Kettle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" 

Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] A boring day - a good story.


> Now *that* made the reading of the last 100 or so posts to this site all
> worthwhile!!!
>
> Thanks, Allan.
>
> Brett Kettle
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan
> Armistead
> Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2005 5:01 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] A boring day - a good story.
>
> Last Saturday was a pretty normal operation at Bunyan (Canberra), though 
> the
> flying was a bit "boring". But that changed when the couple of passengers 
> we
> were expecting turned up early in the afternoon. They were part of a small
> family group, obviously some sort of celebration as they had brought 
> pizzas
> and what appeared to be a birthday cake. (Being in the tug for the day I
> didn't have much chance to talk to them.)
>
> The thing that was immediately different was the young guy in the group
> (early-mid twenties I'd say) who was in a wheelchair and had lost both 
> legs,
> above the knees it seemed. Well that wasn't going to hold him back, he was
> up for a pax flight. I got the full story later from Col, one of our 
> senior
> instructors, who took him up.
>
> Seems he lost his legs some years ago as a result of a car accident. Well
> the first challenge this presented to Col was making sure he was properly
> secured in the glider (fortunately the Puchacz has a crotch strap), the
> second consideration was the weight and balance. Although he weighed some
> 60kg, with no legs sticking out in front the weight was a little further
> back than normal - so Col elected to put a couple of ballast weights in.
>
> The flight went well, and our friend was offered a go at the controls. He
> was also a bit light on for arm and upper body strength, so Col suggested 
> he
> use both hands on the stick, Col would do the rudder. This worked out OK,
> and a good time was had by all.
>
> Towards the end of the flight, our pax said to Col that it was the best 
> fun
> thing he'd done since he'd lost his legs! Nearly cracked Col up when he
> heard that. And it left the rest of us feeling pretty good about the day,
> too.
>
> The family hung around for quite a while, two others also had pax flights,
> and there is a sneaking suspicion we just might see them again.
>
> It was a reality check for all of us on the field that day. So many things
> in life we take for granted, when you see the buzz that "another boring 
> day"
> can give to someone who's had a rough trot in life, it does make you stop
> and think a little. And make you feel good that you have brought a bit of
> real joy to someone else.
>
>
>
> Allan Armistead
> ph (02) 6249 6470, fax (02) 6249 6555, mobile 0413 013 911
> PO Box 908, Dickson ACT 2602, Australia
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will always walk with your eyes
> turned skyward, for there you have been and there you always will be."
> Leonardo da Vinci, 1452-1519
>
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T

RE: [Aus-soaring] Air-sickness

[Matthew Gage]

Having suffered from bad motion sickness for years, both racing sailing
boats offshore and flying, I have tried many remedies:

Ginger - helps a bit.

Pressure pads - useless

Scopoderm patches - fantastic on the boat, but expensive and you waste them
flying - they last 3 days, but don't wear them in the shower, or drink when
wearing them.

Kwells (or similar) - same active ingredients as the patches - work well for
me flying - 1 tablet 1/2 hour before. 

WARNING: I know of at least 1 person who they send to sleep, so test flying
as a passenger first !

The only side effect I have is that they give me a dry mouth, so I end up
drinking more, which is probably a good thing anyway.

I have tried other medications, but for me, all have been wither useless, or
sent me to sleep.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Newton
Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2005 09:46
To: Jim Kelly; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Air-sickness

Jim Kelly wrote:

> Peppe took me on knowing that I may not be the most comfortable 
> student to fly with (!) and was able to teach me HEAPS over a four 
> hour flight (in our club DUO Discus). Much of this was to fly with 
> **far** greater attention to finesse, much less turning, and when 
> turning - - to turn steeply with much less speed (I was thermaling too 
> fast) and hence less G's.

Eh?  g is related to bank angle, not speed.  If you're turning steeply you'd
have more g, right?

(not picking.  Oh, alright, maybe a little bit)

We have an instructor at AUGC who gets airsick just about every day.
Don't know how he does it.  But he says when he's single-seat flying,
hanging around right on the edge of final glide, when he isn't sure whether
he can make it back to the field, works wonders.  Seems the airsickness
thing really is more mental than physical (for him), because focussing his
attention like that makes it go away.


   - mark


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
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RE: [Aus-soaring] numbers

[Matthew Gage]

I think you're missing the point. Only by working on making sure you attract
and retain members at your club can things improve overall.

We have too many clubs that are simply not viable today. I can't put a
minimum membership number on it though.

These "small" clubs need to look at their options before it is too late. Are
there several clubs in the area (within 200k !) in a similar situation ?
Rather than having 3 small clubs disappear, could we have 1 large club
emerge from these ? The resulting big club will have less costs per member,
less time per member to run it and be more fun. I.e., offer a better product
to potential "customers". It then stands a chance of growing.

I am one of those who "just wants to fly", but recognise that unless I do
put something back, I won't be able to for long. My biggest issue is
ensuring that the balance that is needed gives me enough flying for me to be
willing to do this. In a large club, this is possible. In a small club,
there is no chance.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne
Carter
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 09:07
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] numbers

snip-

I guess he can - but to what purpose?

I really don't care whether gliding in Australia is growing, shrinking or
tying itself in knots.  I would like MY OWN CLUB to continue in existence
and it seems to be doing that very nicely, with relatively stable numbers -
perhaps slightly increasing.  I've introduced a few friends to gliding and
every now and then other members do and the club chugs along nicely.

I don't care if gliding becomes more popular.  It appears it was much more
popular in the late 70s but since it has shrunk from then, that popularity
clearly didn't translate into a better gliding experience for many of the
members - because they left.

It seems to me that if we all try to make sure that our own club stays a
happy, solvent organisation which provides as far as possible an affordable
and enjoyable gliding life for those who wish to be part of it, then that is
the best we can do.  Growth will then take care of itself.  By which I mean
- it will happen if that is what makes people enjoy gliding more.  And if
not, it won't.

The only thing I can do about the state of world gliding is to help keep my
own club viable.  That's all you can do too.  The rest is gum-beating.

Graeme Cant

When we drool over a 50+, dream of a 70+ and imagine a possible 100+ L/D
ship -all quite feasable- we must face reality that the technology used in
our sport is at the expensive forfront of aviation design. When this
technology is safely available to the public we buy it, but there must be a
large base of consumers to keep it economically viable, thus the increase in
participants is essential. 
When the old ships are damaged, and there are few replacements, even your
club will go down, as a new ship will cost even more, due to declining
sales. Can you imagine what the cost of the first new model Holden off the
line is? $B! -yet we pay only $20k+. 
Although our own lifespans will see gliding easily accessable, our kids and
grandkids will not unless the figures are changed.

Safe, Wayne

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RE: [Aus-soaring] numbers

[Matthew Gage]

They did, just no one wanted them. Modern glider design is frequently
conducted as university research into making them quicker, better l/d, etc.
This means that new gliders are generally at the top end of possibilities.
Given the biggest cost in any new glider is the people time used to build
it, we end up with the "Falcon" costing 5% less than the "Mercedes", not 50%
less !

There are a large number of good quality used gliders about however, and
they are constantly getting life extensions - I'm sure we will see 50 year
old glass gliders, they often cost a lot less than a new car. This means
that in 50 years time, we should still be seeing Discus, LS6, LS8, etc
flying, by which time they will be costing a lot less than the then new
cars.

If you are right that the people who today can afford to fly are different,
then unless we can provide the facilities/product that they will accept,
then they won't be attracted.

A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. A product I
don't want is worthless (you couldn't even give it to me). Unless there are
enough people willing to accept the products we offer, there will be no
future. We either need to find the people who will accept it (huge $ in
marketing), or change the product to suit more people.

A club that is growing obviously has a product that people want. A club that
is shrinking does not - the issues will not always be the same though.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher
Mc Donnell
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 10:47
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] numbers

I can't help but agree with Wayne.
I have been told that Boomerangs or KA6's were around about the cost of a
family car when new.
Those around my club are used to my trite rhetorical saying:

"Why can't the manufacturers build some Commodore and Falcon type gliders
not all Rolls Royces, Mercedes & BMW's?".

My son, who is in Brisbane, thought he might get back into gliding but the
aircraft tariffs were enough to scare him away from the idea and he earns
relativly well. Gliding is definitly shifting across the socio/economic
spectrum and the sort of people who could afford it are such that they would
not put up with the conditions at most gliding clubs in the consumer society
of today anyway.

I agree with Robert Hart's comments a few moments ago, but he, like me,
seems to also be hoping that the sport will last long enough to see him out.

Chris McDonnell
(not normally & not wanting to be a pessimist)

- Original Message -
From: "Wayne Carter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] numbers


> snip-
>
> I guess he can - but to what purpose?
>
> I really don't care whether gliding in Australia is growing, shrinking or 
> tying itself in knots.  I would like MY OWN CLUB to continue in existence 
> and it seems to be doing that very nicely, with relatively stable 
> numbers - perhaps slightly increasing.  I've introduced a few friends to 
> gliding and every now and then other members do and the club chugs along 
> nicely.
>
> I don't care if gliding becomes more popular.  It appears it was much more

> popular in the late 70s but since it has shrunk from then, that popularity

> clearly didn't translate into a better gliding experience for many of the 
> members - because they left.
>
> It seems to me that if we all try to make sure that our own club stays a 
> happy, solvent organisation which provides as far as possible an 
> affordable and enjoyable gliding life for those who wish to be part of it,

> then that is the best we can do.  Growth will then take care of itself. 
> By which I mean - it will happen if that is what makes people enjoy 
> gliding more.  And if not, it won't.
>
> The only thing I can do about the state of world gliding is to help keep 
> my own club viable.  That's all you can do too.  The rest is gum-beating.
>
> Graeme Cant
>
> When we drool over a 50+, dream of a 70+ and imagine a possible 100+ L/D 
> ship -all quite feasable- we must face reality that the technology used in

> our sport is at the expensive forfront of aviation design. When this 
> technology is safely available to the public we buy it, but there must be 
> a large base of consumers to keep it economically viable, thus the 
> increase in participants is essential. When the old ships are damaged, and

> there are few replacements, even your club will go down, as a new ship 
> will cost even more, due to declining sales. Can you imagine what the cost

> of the first new model Holden off the line is? $B! -yet we pay only $20k+.

> Although our own lifespans will see gliding easily accessable, our kids 
> and grandkids will not unless the figures are changed.
>
> Safe, Wayne
>
> ___
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> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscri

RE: [Aus-soaring] Aerokurier

[Matthew Gage]

Re medicals.

This is not a reduction in standards at all. It is acceptance of the UK CAA
system for the NPPL which implemented a revised BGA system for gliding
(which the BGA now use as well), which in turn was based on statistical
evidence of accidents that were attributed to medical causes.

The stats showed that pilots with a current class 2 medical were more likely
to be involved in an accident with medical causes than a GP counter signed
self declaring pilot (gliding at the time).

The main point here is that in the UK in particular, and in Europe in
general, people see the same GP all the time, who has available a complete
medical history, so with a checklist is in a far better position to judge
fitness than a medic with NO access to that history, as it the case with a
class 2 !

The reason is that you see your GP to keep you healthy / alive, so you tell
them everything that may help. You see a DAME to pass a test, so tell them
the absolute minimum and try to hide known problems to avoid failing !




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Tuesday, 3 January 2006 14:57
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Aerokurier

 From Aerokurier 1/06(www.aerokurier.rotor.com)

*GLIDING*

*What has happened to the ideas about promoting gliding?* “The future of
gliding in Europe” was the central theme at the 64th German Gliding Day at
the beginning of November in Hanover. Anyone who had hoped for a spirit of
optimism sought in vain.

*Alternatives to the JAR medical
*The fitness for flying criteria have come under fire. Jürgen K. Knüppel has
summarised the current discussion and introduces the German Aero Club’s
“family doctor model” for recreational pilots as an alternative to JAR-FCL
3.


In the news regarding power flying they mention that EASA are proposing a
Recreational PPL with medicals done by any GP. I gather the new JAR
standards have resulted in people who were previously regarded as fit to fly
losing their medical certification.

The problem with medical standards is that at some point they are just a
matter of opinion.

Mike







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RE: [Aus-soaring] daylight display screens

[Matthew Gage]

Alternatively, run an inverter from a large (80-100Ah) car battery, and have
this on permeant solar panel charge. This can then feed the standard power
supply. You could also use a 24v supply and used a cheap regulator to bypass
the standard laptop supply - most need 16-18 volts.

As long as you don't operate 7 days per week, this should do fine and is how
the club I flew from in the UK worked.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott
Penrose
Sent: Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] daylight display screens


On 01/02/2006, at 16:44, Robert Hart wrote:

> Brett Kettle wrote:
>>
>> This list recently reported the successes of John Wharington, Todd ?, 
>> etc establishing an OZFLARM-based clubhouse display for finishing 
>> gliders at Benalla. I'm looking to create something similar for the 
>> DDSC 'pie-cart' (we now have 100% of the club fleet and all bar a 
>> couple of stragglers in the private fleet OZFLARM-equipped). Cathy 
>> Conway's give me some useful antenna advice and I'm trying to find a 
>> good display option.
>>
>> Does anyone have any recommendations on a computer screen that will 
>> still be clearly visible with bright sky behind the observer?
>> LCD? TFT? CRT? or another TLA?
>>
> My (limited - using a laptop mostly but also a PC/CRT on a few
> occasions) experience is that flat screens are considerably to be 
> preferred in such conditions. With a flat screen one can usually find 
> an angle which minimises reflections whereas this is very hard to 
> achieve with a curved screen. With the addition of a shade, things 
> improve considerably.

Yes I agree - and the price is getting better. Although a laptop has been
suggested for power issues, you still can only run laptops for no more than
about 2 hours - which means you still need a power source.

> An old(er) laptop would meet the needs - but newer ones have a 
> brighter screen and a wider viewing angle. With a laptop, you also 
> open up the possibility of linking into the wireless LAN which means 
> the duty crew would have access to the latest radar pictures, useful 
> when storms are around! With 12v solar power in the pie cart, we 
> should be able to keep things powered up for a day if we increase the 
> collector area.

Laptop and Desktop both have the ability to use wireless - infact it is
cheaper on a desktop and better support for external aerials :-)

Scott



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RE: [Aus-soaring] Soaring training

[Matthew Gage]

I think the reasons are many.

First, a quick note on what my initial goals were. I had spent many years
competing sailing at an international level. I stopped because I had stopped
enjoying it and couldn't see any way I could do better than I had already
within my financial situation. I went looking for a new challenge (gliding).
When I started, I had a single goal - to compete at as high a level as I
could. I haven't reached it yet.

This meant that going solo, first 50k, etc were just mile stones to pass and
never seen as the end point, actually, they weren't very important.

Others have said that in general, training is focused on going solo - this
is because that is where the hard work from the club ends (but it shouldn't)
and the hard work from the pilot begins.

New pilots perceive the process as being to get them solo. They get there,
and then what ? If luck, they have already thought about it or been lucky
enough to be enthused by others. If not, they see this as the end, with no
obvious way to do anything more - reinforced by several flights where they
can't stay up whilst others do with ease (it took me a long time to get past
this) - so they just give up.

Others may discover that it just isn't for them 1/2 way through and continue
just to get the badge. How many get air-sick without asking if others do and
look for suitable means of control ? - The number of pilots taking Qwells
(or similar) before flying at Benalla for the Club Class nats amazed me - I
thought I was alone before !

What are check flights used for ? Do the pilot and the instructor have the
same agenda ? The pilot probably wants to do the quickest circuit possible
to then get some solo time in, rather than using this as a great learning
flight (thermalling technique, short x-country, etc). How often is this
planned or even discussed before flying ?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leigh
Bunting
Sent: Monday, 13 February 2006 23:16
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Soaring training

Kittel, Stephen W (ETSA) wrote:

>From: Allan Armistead
>is it really credible that when someone comes onto an airfield and 
>joins a club that they are planning to stay to solo and then go away again?
>
I too, have seen this often over the years.

As much as I fail to understand it, there are many people for which the
fascination of flight, the moods of the atmosphere, the wonder of trying to
understand an invisible medium and of being up there amongst it, of being
able to move in three dimensions instead of the the normal two that are
available down here amongst the groundhogs, has little or no meaning or
significance.

Flying is just another mechanical activity as they move through their
'Reader's Digest' lives of just sampling things and moving on and not of
immersing themselves and savouring all it has to offer. These people are
happy with Chateau Cardboard and have no interest in the Grange. They are
cows cropping the tips of the grass and failing to understand that all the
flavour begins in the roots.

I don't know how that can be changed.

As a list member has often said of people, " You can tell 'em, but you can't
give 'em the f.g brains to think with."

--
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia




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RE: [Aus-soaring] Soaring training

[Matthew Gage]

I don't think he did - but I think you might be 
!
 
If we condition ab-initios to think that going solo is the 
main priority, when they get there, there is a good chance many will say "well 
I've done that, now for the next challenge" - the "fun" hasn't really begun yet, 
so we don't have them totally hooked !
 
If going solo is viewed as just a required stepping stone 
to the "real" thing, then keeping people should be easier - they haven't "done 
it" yet.
 
Does it really matter if someone takes 2 hours longer to 
get solo than they could have if it means they have experienced more of what is 
available in the process ?


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek 
RuddockSent: Friday, 17 February 2006 09:07To: Tom 
Wilksch; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Soaring 
training


I think you 
missed the point. 
XC soaring is 
obviously the end goal for most, if not all committed glider pilots, but we are 
talking about ab-initio pilots here
Endless 
soaring flight will not prepare a student for solo
 

  

-Original 
Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom WilkschSent: Thursday, 16 February 2006 4:53 
PMTo: Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Soaring 
training
 

That 
does rather depend on how you definie value for money.  I think most of us 
would consider value for money to be XC flying not doing circuits.  So 
somewhere the value for money perception changes.

 

Tom

  
  - 
  Original Message - 
  
  From: Derek Ruddock 
  
  
  To: Discussion of issues relating 
  to Soaring in Australia. 
  
  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 2:32 
  PM
  
  Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Soaring 
  training
  
   
  I believe 
  it is important to strike a balance:
  I fully 
  remember my first hour long flight when we flew what seemed like a vast 
  distance away (Milton Keynes), and flew back to Dunstable at 
  120knots.
  However, a 
  large number of pilots never finish their training, and I think this is 
  because there is perhaps too much emphasis on soaring (and, dare I say, the 
  instructor having fun) rather than on circuits.
  Concentrating 
  on circuits is probably far more productive in the long term: it is easier to 
  teach a solo pilot to thermal than teaching a pre-solo pilot who can thermal 
  to take off and land. Let’s face it, going solo is a significant target for 
  all ab-initio’s.
  Note that I 
  am not advocating flying circuits to the exclusion of thermalling, just that, 
  with the exception of one or two extended flights, that the student will 
  achieve better value for money,  if his training is concentrated on safe 
  landings.   
   
  
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Future Aviation Pty. 
  Ltd.Sent: Sunday, 12 
  February 2006 11:32 AMTo: 
  aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netSubject: [Aus-soaring] Soaring 
  training
   
  Good 
  morning all!
   
  Most 
  of you will know that proper soaring training is an issue very close to my 
  heard.
   
  I 
  tend to think that the poor retention rate in gliding is to a large extend due 
  to the fact 
  that 
  we let our new recruits sort out the soaring aspect on their own. After having 
  gone 
  solo 
  too many of them experience problems keeping a glider airborne. The result is 
  
  regular set-backs and disappointments and before much 
  longer many of our new 
  aviators vote with their feet.
   
  The 
  teaching of thermalling seems to be rather low on the list of priorities 
  during basic 
  training in Australia. In some clubs it appears to be 
  regarded as a post solo subject, if 
  it is 
  tackled at all.
   
  Could 
  you help me by providing some feedback?
   
  1) How is your club handling the 
  issue of soaring training? 
  2) Roughly what percentage of new 
  recruits are leaving without ever enjoying 
      a cross-country 
  flight or seeing the full potential of our marvellous 
  sport?
  3) Do members of this newsgroup 
  think that we can lift the retention rate by 
      providing better 
  pre-solo soaring training?
   
  I appreciate that this is a rather 
  sensitive issue and fully understand that you mightn’t 
  want to express your views and 
  opinions publicly. Therefore, please feel free to submit 
  your thoughts and comments 
  directly to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   
  I can assure everyone to treat all 
  replies confidentially.
   
  Many thanks for your 
  input.
   
  Bernard Eckey
  RTO (S) for SA & 
  NT
  10 Antigua Grove
  West Lakes 5021
  Adelaide / South 
  Australia
  Ph/Fax +61 8 8449 
  2871
  mobile 0412 
  981204
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
   
  
  
  
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RE: [Aus-soaring] FLARM mandatory update news.

[Matthew Gage]

1st, Nigel made it very clear to those at both Keepit and Benalla that this
existed. This means that time-bomb is not quite the right word for it.
Mandatory Update is.

2nd and far more importantly, in the interests of safety, it is better for a
unit to not work at all than give an indication that is misleading - this
could be fatal to you, and very expensive to both Nigel and the Swiss people
who invented the system when the lawyers get involved.

Switching from using GPS altitude (which when filtered should have a close
baseline for everyone in the same area) to using pressure altitude, means
that we can not accept some units using GPS and others using pressure as
they just won't correlate.

Those who invented Flarm and make the updates are glider pilots as well. It
is in their interests to ensure that as many others as possible use Flarm as
well. For this reason, it is highly unlikely that we will face huge upgrade
fees !

Please all remember that Flarm is just an aid to avoiding each other. It
does not and MUST not replace using your eyes and keeping a good lookout.
The moment we start following the standards of many power pilots in this
country and rely on an electronic device (radio) for primary avoidance in
VFR, we will start killing 100's a year !



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Boyd Munro
Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 20:42
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM mandatory update news.

Hello John,

I cannot quite follow the reasoning for the time-bomb.

Do you know whereabouts on the web the time-bomb policy is set out in full,
together with answers to the obvious questions such as what owners of FLARM
units do if the manufacturer of their unit fails to deliver an update, or
delivers a faulty update, or goes out of business, or decides to charge
$1000 for an update?

It seems to me that a time-bomb strikes at the very heart of the system.

Boyd Munro

- Original Message -
From: "John Wharington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM mandatory update news.


Jason,

Yes, all FLARMs worldwide have a time-bomb that requires the firmware to
be updated annually.  This is designed to ensure that all users fly with
up-to-date firmware, in order to eliminate potential interoperability
problems if the radio protocol or other logic changes.

For example, currently FLARM uses a filtered form of GPS altitude to
calculate traffic relative heights.  This is somewhat error-prone
because GPS altitude sometimes is not very accurate, so a future version
of the FLARM firmware will make use of pressure altitude to compute
relative heights.  I understand this improvement is nearly ready for
deployment, I am not sure whether it will be in the next release or a
later one (e.g. the one due in Feb 2007).


On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 19:52 +1100, Jason Armistead wrote:
> Nigel
>
> Are you saying that the OzFlarms have some sort of software time-bomb that
> renders them useless or partially so after the 28th February ?
>
> Jason
>
> At 08:25 AM 17/02/2006, you wrote:
> >To all Ozflarm owners,
> >
> >The Feb 16th update has been delayed a week due to some last minute 
> >changes.
> >Your Ozflarms will continue to run until the end of February, the updates
> >will be available before then so flying this weekend is ops normal for 
> >Ozi
> >flarm persons.
> >
> >The downloads can be via our web site or flarm or we will be sending a CD
> >with the flarmtool software , our downloading software , current update ,
> >manuals and some utilities for those that want to see their GPS running 
> >on a
> >P.C etc. This might arrive a few days after the end of Feb shutdown so if
> >you need you unit running then go to the downloads on the net.
> >
> >Cheers all , thanks for the great support over the last few months.
> >
> >Nigel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Nigel Andrews
> >
> >
> >RF Developments Pty Ltd
> >
> >"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation
> >electronics"
> >
> >Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Web www.rf-developments.com
> >
> >Ph: (61) 7 54635670 Fax: (61) 7 54635695
> >
> >**DISCLAIMER
> >
> >The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which
> >includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. 
> >It
> >is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is
> >addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying,
> >modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on 
> >the
> >information is unauthorised. If you received this communication in error,
> >please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer 
> >system
> >network.
> >
> >
> >
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RE: [Aus-soaring] RE: Near misses

[Matthew Gage]

The definition of a near miss is also a problem.

I am quite happy to share a thermal with several (many ?) others, providing
I can see them. We are very close (within 50-100 metres).

Others are not happy to be within 2-3k of another aircraft in ANY airspace -
as Graeme can attest to following a radio "discussion" with a commercial
pilot recently - and believe that having actually seen another aircraft (at
the same level), there was a near miss.

I usually define this as meaning that I (or the other pilot) had to take
immediate unplanned avoiding action on seeing each other.

The 1st definition would have 100's a day. The 2nd would have very few in a
year.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Cant
Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 17:37
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] RE: Near misses

>From: Mike Cleaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>This is quite simply a consignment of ancient testicles (i.e. a load of 
>old bollocks).  If Graeme thinks he poses such a threat to other 
>traffic, what is he going to do about it?

Nothing, Mike.  It doesn't faze me.  I've assessed the risks and I live
happily with them.  I don't believe I pose a higher risk than other glider
pilots.  I believe that the stats show that ALL glider pilots are at greater
risk of a near miss than other forms of aviation.  I take my own personal
steps to minimise the risks.  That's what life's about.  One of the things
on this group I get tired of is the large component whose personality seems
to demand that all risk be regulated away.

Now back to your description of my comment - you're certainly correct - at
the moment.  Your point about the current CASA hierarchy is a good one but
you miss my meaning.

"IF more near misses are reported" was my opening comment.  I didn't discuss
an increase in actual near misses - just an increase in reported near misses
(which Geoff Kidd seems to see as a good thing).  More and more, CASA
airspace policy is driven by politics.  The publicity barrage by the
regional airline pilots over NAS 2c is a good example.  Rationality had been
  carefully cultivated for years but it was trodden on and trashed by a few
weeks publicity.  Millions of dollars of educational material was thrown out
and the whole policy re-negotiated.

IF there is an increase in REPORTED glider near misses, what weapon do you
think the regional airline pilots will seize next time their tranquillity is
threatened?  In the ensuing publicity battle for the hearts and minds of
politicians, what makes you think glider pilots - sport aviation generally -
will win?

The US paradigm has made us believe that the natural order of things is that
airspace is free and open to all unless declared otherwise.  The East
European system - in fact much of Western Europe too - is that all airspace
is forbidden unless specifically declared open.  If gliding is seen to have
a horrifying rate of near misses, I think it entirely likely that all our
supporters in CASA won't be able to stop us being restricted from mixing
freely with other users.

Let's have this conversation again in ten years time.

Cheers,
Graeme.

CASA is well aware of the
>relative risks that sport & recreational aviation poses and legislates 
>to minimise the risks to ground-based "innocent bystanders" and to 
>other airspace users. Now, as always since the GFA was formed, there 
>are a number (at least 7) of active glider pilots in significant jobs 
>in CASA to be able to accurately assess and represent the realities to
senior management.
>
>Provided gliders use the same procedures in Class A, C and D airspace 
>as other traffic, and behave responsibly in Class G and Class E in VMC, 
>there is no problem and no unacceptable risk.
>
>The efforts of glider pilots to develop devices such as Flarm, and to 
>enable it to interact with ADS-B, shows how responsible they are.
>(Incidentally, the first 4 ADS-B ground stations will commence 
>operation around mid-year (THIS year!) with the RPT fleet to be 
>equipped by around
>mid-2007 and GA likely to follow by the end of 2009. Provision of ADS-B 
>transmitters for General Aviation is a commercial decision for 
>Airservices, based on safety cost analyses yet to be completed.
>
>Anybody who flies in a way that poses a threat to other traffic, please 
>identify yourself here and then get re-trained!
>
>We have no shortage of airline pilots and Air Traffic Controllers 
>flying gliders to know what goes on and to present the professional 
>knowledge to the gliding community. (Still, New Zealand has out-done us 
>with a glider pilot - Max Stevens - retiring recently from the position 
>of Deputy Director of Civil Aviation).
>
>Wombat
>
>
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

[Matthew Gage]

Simon,
 
Just to counter, 
 
For a comp, I already MUST carry (wear) a Parachute, A 
Logger (GPS trace is only acceptable as a backup) and a Radio. I also need 
to pay to enter, pay for tows and for accommodation.
 
For 
this years Club Class Nationals, I spent well over $2,000 on the comp. Could 
have been less if I camped, but still would have been over $1,000 all 
up.
My 
parachute was "cheap" at about $2,000. 
My 
logger setup is again cheap (Garmin + EW) - $1,200
Radio 
- Microair - $1,100
 
So to 
take an old glider and get it comp ready and actually compete, I am looking at 
$6,300 - ok, all the equipment can be re-used.
 
Now 
lets look at an OzFlarm - $770. It could replace the Logger as I am led to 
believe it will be acceptable for an Australian comp in the future. ($400 saved 
- GPS or PDA still needed ?).
 
Add to 
this a common desire to see a reasonable quantity of units for hire should it 
become mandatory, and I don't really see a valid objection on cost 
grounds.
We already have a mandated a safety item that 
I wouldn't bet my life on - the parachute - would you willingly go and 
jump using just your glider parachute ? From your argument, this should not be 
mandated, and it could be argued that a 100% Flarm equipped fleet reduces the 
need for it anyway (another $2000 saved).
 
Sadly, I don't share your comfort in certified 
instruments. All that has happened is that huge sums have been spent checking 
that everything works as intended in a specific set of circumstances. Anything 
outside of that and it is un-tested (bit like VNE !) I am aware of too many 
accidents caused by total reliance on certified instruments outside of their 
"tested" range, when an un-certified instrument was telling the 
truth.
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon 
HackettSent: Monday, 27 March 2006 15:59To: Discussion of 
issues relating to Soaring in Australia.Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 
Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM
Robert Hart wrote: 
We would 
  like every glider and tug to be FLARM equipped, but gliders without 
  FLARM will be permitted to fly in the Easter comp.For all Qld comps 
  after this Easter (state, Easter, whatever and probably nationals run in Qld) 
  the rules are being amended to place FLARM in the same category as radio - 
  i.e. mandatory glider equipment. If a glider does not have a full set of 
  operational, mandatory equipment, they will not be permitted to 
launch.For what its worth, I'm of the view that 
*recommendation* to use FLARM in comps is good and fine, and 
non-contentious.However, I feel that an ultimate shift to making a FLARM 
*mandatory* for competition flying is a very significant decision that should 
not be taken lightly (or potentially, at all), for reasons including:- 
Added cost to a sport which is already non-income-producing and suffering from 
cost and 'other things in life' pressures in terms of bringing in new blood - 
especially but not only (a) juniors (b) people with older aircraft and 
potentially limited budgets as well (at any age of pilot!).- The 
potential to generate reliance on a technology which, I am sure, is excellent, 
but which (in its current form) is *not* a certified technology for locating 
other aircraft, unlike radios (which are licensed and produced to defined 
standards) and the other flight instruments (similarly). While none of 
us feel like the extra money paid for 'certified' instruments is pleasant, it 
does come with some level of assurance that the certified instruments are the 
survivors of a test regime which is adequate, and a regime of checking and 
verifying future changes in firmware which will then be fully tested to ensure 
they continue to maintain the appropriate level of demonstrated accuracy and 
reliability.And if the response to all of this is (I would argue, 
correctly) that its irrelevant because FLARM is only a secondary/backup to the 
correct primary approach, see-and-avoid ... then sincerely, this is the key 
argument in my mind *against* mandating it. Don't mandate something safety 
related that you (on the other hand) won't yet bet your life on. Think 
about it like cameras vs GPS. Sure, noone turns up at a comp with a camera any 
more, but for a decade or so, we were in a genuinely mixed environment, as all 
of us got the hang of GPSs, as they became cheaper, and (most importantly) as we 
all formed a trust relationship with the data they provided, and learned when to 
trust them and when not to.I'm not sure if I've explained myself clearly 
enough here, and whether you will buy my argument, but sincerely I feel that 
imposing both the cost and the potentially gray area of implict endorsement of 
FLARM as being a safety-critical device are the right answers at this time for 
any form of 'mandate' in respect of its use.Please appreciate that I'm 
the last person to want to hold back the takeup of technology. The reverse of 
that is in fact my day job as a broadba

RE: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

[Matthew Gage]

Lets look at this differently,

Will a Radio save your life - NO
Will a parachute save your life - Possibly, but don't you want to avoid
needing to use it ?
Will perfect lookout prevent a mid-air - NO

We have 2 items that cost far more that for a life saving perspective are
either useless, or there as a save from a system failure - this is like TCAS
for commercial aircraft - responding to directions from TCAS indicates a
failure of the ATS

We have situations where perfect lookout from all is not always going to
work - we do have mutual blind spots !

Any device that can act as an aid to prevent me needing to use a parachute
MUST be a benefit.

However, pilots MUST be instructed in its use and limitations and have
personal goals to see gliders before Flarm does - you have a permeant check
on your performance, rather than an annual check when there may be no other
aircraft in the area !

As to comments about improving lookout or not, Rolf is not alone - read the
reports on the trials. Many of us were asked to justify why we believed that
this was the case - In my case, it was pride in my own lookout - I hate
being beaten by a machine, and also fear - if I have missed 1, then how many
others have I missed, both with and without flarm - it was a BIG wake-up
that my lookout was not good enough, but more than good enough for any of
the tens of Instructors, National Coaches, etc I have flown with.

If Flarm does nothing more than wake others up to this, then it will save
lives. If it encourages complacency, then I agree with you - it will make
matters worse.

With this in mind, I would hate to see it fitted to the front seat of a club
trainer during basic training.




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter
Creswick
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2006 19:54
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

I no longer fly, so I probably shouldn't comment, but I will anyway.

I have watched this FLARM debate with some misgivings.  It seems to be
following the same general line as with ADSB, ie, both are totally one sided
debates.  There are those pushing these things with an evangelical fervour,
that would make Billy Graham look like a woozy.

Extolling the virtues to the utter exclusion of any possible down sides, and
declaring that you won't fly without it now, is effectively delivering a
unilaterally rubbishing ultimatum to those holding any contrary opinion, and
effectively says, "piss off out of my sky".  A rather conceited position for
my money.  What do you want, glider comp areas declared temporary prohibited

areas for anyone non FLARM equipped ?   What about GA aircraft ?  You want 
them banned from flying through the comp area too ?

As with all "latest and greatest techo-wiz" situations, it seems to me that
the greatest danger is rising '"techno-dependence" and a consequent
degradation of basic airmanship with time.  There are idiots who go to see
in yachts with GPS and a spare battery and claim they are safe, without
having a clue how to use a sextant.  Many haven't even seen one.

The comments and justifications for FLARM along the lines that the equipment
improves lookout has me staggered.  Sorry, but although alerted see and
avoid is good in principle, it is only a partial improvement in one aspect. 
But that will have a long term cost.  I feel that the un-alerted SCAN will
diminish, not improve, but actually diminish, because we are humans, and we
will get into a comfort zone that will allow degradation of the un-alerted
scan, with eventual, and I believe inevitable, tragic outcomes.  There are
so many computers etc in gliders now that the pilot's attention is more and
more devoted to optimising performance, to the extent that BASIC VFR LOOKOUT
is being compromised.  FLARM will, even though it is audio, continue that
drain on "effective scanning", because the brain will gradually get
comfortable with the idea that there is nothing else out there to see.  Not
a good way to go.

Even if you had sanitised airspace for comps, you are in a comp, and you
have compulsory FLARM, everyone equipped, and half way through the day one
person's kit fails, for whatever reason, battery goes belly up, whatever. 
Come a few years hence, eyeballs comfortably inside more than out, the end
of a long hot day, 20km to run, and  crunch.





- Original Message -
From: "rolf a. buelter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM


> With all due respect Simon, I disagree with most all of your arguments.
> I have in this season flown one competition without Flarm, one with 100 % 
> Flarm, one with 75 % Flarm and one with 25 % Flarm and half a dozend cross

> country flights in a club environment with some Flarms in the air. I'm not

> concerned at all about "not certified".  It  tells 

RE: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

[Matthew Gage]

Comments in-line.
 
Sadly, it looks like those (myself included) pro Flarm 
being mandatory for Competitions have articulated their arguments weakly - The 2 
comps I did this year were very close to voting to make it mandatory anyway. 
Those who are arguing against have not flown with this. I respect your point of 
view, but do believe that many of the criticisms would go away if you did see 
this in use - most of us had those exact same reservations before the 
trials.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter 
CreswickSent: Tuesday, 28 March 2006 11:18To: Discussion 
of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 
Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

> As I said before, it does have a use in 
the alerted see and avoid realm, but I don't see it as "the" answer, 
that  
> so many on  various web 
sites and forums, particularly the European ones, seem to think it is, and I see 
down  
> sides, and 
council caution.  
 
Totally agree with you here on see and avoid. This is a 
device that might help when things go wrong - would you propose removing TCAS 
from commercial aircraft for the same reasons ? TCAS is a device that might help 
when things go wrong (it's not fool proof).
 
I 
believe that Flarm, with the downsides properly managed gives us a far 
better position than without it.
 
> I have had plenty of cases in the last 
fifty plus years where the latest and greatest turned out to be a monumental 
flop,  
> and in a couple of cases, disasters, 
requiring back to square one.  I am always "suspicious" of those who leap 
on the  
> band wagon 
of something the latest and greatest, and just go hell for leather for 
it.  It reminds me of Lemmings, and it  
> makes me 
nervous.  
 
Again, I agree. I was highly 
sceptical before using it. I was willing to have an open mind 
though.
 
> Demanding, as some have, that this, 
something still very new, unique, still in development, from a single 
manufacturer, 
> that is proprietary and expensive, that 
there is limited experience of, be made mandatory, and asserting that 
non  
> agreement with such mandating is cause for 
excluding people from flying in comps, is "evangelical fervour".  
 
Ok, here we have some misconceptions. 

 
1. This is not a new technology - it is new to Australia though - 
it has been in use for a few years now.
2. 
Everything in use in Aviation is "still in development" !
3. 
There is not a single manufacturer of units. There is at least 1 non OzFlarm 
unit in use locally. 
4. I 
have already stated that I don't perceive this as expensive where compared to 
the other mandatory items I need for a comp - remember we are ONLY talking about 
mandating use in a comp. 
 
The 
organisers are also trying to ensure that units are available for rent to those 
who can't afford or don't wish to purchase one.
 
THERE 
IS NO BARRIER to competing due to this !
 
 
 
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

[Matthew Gage]

I can't comment on the display when thermalling. In practice, I totally
ignore Flarm in a gaggle - I'm too busy looking out the window, and I tend
to turn the volume down so as to not be distracted by the rare alarm -
However, the algorithm is so good that it doesn't trigger an alarm unless
someone re-centres aggressively, even with quite a few gliders present.

It has proven useful when I start to thermal alone, and within a few seconds
I get several contacts at 1-3k, at this point, they do seem to be coming
from the direction the unit predicts.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RF
Developments Pty Ltd
Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2006 11:29
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM

Hi Mike,

I will let the FLARM guys answer the circling bit but as for straight and
level the indicated direction is as accurate as it can be on the ozflarms
given the compass rose is in 45 degree increments. Generally they are in the
given indication, sometimes 2 leds will light showing a transition. There is
a 2 second hysteresis on positions so a slight delay can be seen between the
old LED and the new ( both will light ). The thermalling prediction is quite
complex and given that it has to calculate AND report it does well. The
FLARM team need to be commended for their work - no one else that I know off
have done this before for thermalling gliders, stand to be corrected if this
is not true.

Remember to that the Swiss flarm has a different display to ours.

At Lake Keepit we did have a position error issue in straight flying. Thanks
to Hank , Matt gage and a few others we were able to find a bug in the Oz
software, not flarm - it was just the way we interpreted the position data
from FLARM and was corrected for Gawler - maybe this is what someone was
referring to?

Cheers

Nigel



  

Nigel Andrews

Managing Director

RF Developments Pty Ltd

"A Queensland Company devoted to Research and Development in aviation
electronics" 

Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Web www.rf-developments.com

Ph: (61) 7 54635670 Fax: (61) 7 54635695

**DISCLAIMER

The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which
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please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system
network. 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:08 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Queensland Easter Competition and FLARM


At 02:28 PM 28/03/06, you wrote:
>Graeme & Joy Rickert wrote:
>>Wide range of mostly interesting comments on this subject, plus of 
>>course the usual few offensive statements.
>>
>>> From someone who has not used FLARM but has been a tuggie at comps, 
>>> I can
>>see virtue in total FLARM fitment.  There have been occasions when, 
>>despite my best efforts at lookout, the limitations of view from the 
>>Pawnee have placed me a little closer than I had expected to other 
>>aircraft.  I have only had two "near misses" requiring serious 
>>avoidance action but that is more than enough.  FLARM may have given 
>>me a better and earlier indication of those potential
conflicts.
>>
>>On the other hand, a possible weakness with FLARM is that the pilot 
>>may be seduced into looking in the direction indicated by the system 
>>to identify the particular aircraft and may temporarily reduce overall 
>>scanning for other aircraft either without FLARM or with a fitted 
>>system that had failed.
>FLARM needs to be integrated into your lookout scan. The way I do this 
>is as follows:-
>
>   1. FLARM is mounted on the top RHS of my instrument panel, with a
>  sunshade over it to keep it from overheating in the hot Aussie sun
>  and to provide a shade for the LEDs to increase their contrast in
>  bright sunshine.
>   2. When I do my straight ahead (cruise and instruments) part of the
>  scan, FLARM infor is taken in. During the rest of the scan, I look
>  for the traffic that FLARM has alerted me to.
>   3. If the FLARM alarm sounds, I look where it tells me to look - at
>  that point I am a max of 18 seconds from a potential collision and
>  that direction DESERVES my immediate attention! Once that is
>  sorted out, it's back to whatever scan I should be doing.


Robert,

I hope you meant that you also look for the non FLARM targets ie. 
Cessnas, hang gliders, ultralights, eagles. The last will probably never buy
FLARM units.

Ma

RE: [Aus-soaring] GPS Navigator with PDA

[Matthew Gage]

The advantage of the Sensis map is that full road details are provided (for
where it covers), so sensible directions can be given. I can remember these
things telling me to turn onto a major road where there was no junction, and
being told to go the wrong way down a 1 way road - something that is very
very rare now.

The downside of the Sensis maps is that their coverage is poor - Pipers
Field just a couple of k outside Bathurst is off the end of the coverage by
over 1k on the current maps.

My biggest gripe with the dedicated units though is that I am yet to find
any that will accept a lat/long as a destination (except when loaded as a
favourite place from a PC). I was after one to help with retrieves - the
lack of coverage would also hamper this !

Now to your problem with IGC loggers. They are so expensive not because of
what the do, but because of the IGC requirements for security and the
approval process - this has to be paid for by what is a limited market. If
flarm were to be approved (it is a logger), expect the price to double to at
least the same as the other loggers out there.





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dav
Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 10:53
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] GPS Navigator with PDA

"It is the
integration that is likely to bring about problems."

In what way?

I am using an IPAQ 3870+ Garmin72 with x/c soar and maps generated for free
by the user group currently, and find annoyances from the lack of
integration, for example having to switch the Garmin between Garmin mode for
download to cu and NMEA mode whilst connected to the PDA.

With free maps available, what is the advantage of the Sensis maps?

Any PDA with maps and compact flash/SDIO GPS fitted would do the same job.

Given that dedicated in car GPS sell for around this price it doesn't seem
that cheap to me!

In fact what I cannot work out for the life of me is the VERY high cost of
IGC Data loggers, they seem to contain little more than this device yet cost
double, anyone know why? If the flarm is approved as an IGC logger this
situation may improve as prices are forced down. I am not holding my breath
though!


Regards Dav


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 13 April 2006 10:05 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.; Dav
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] GPS Navigator with PDA

It is cheap for an integrated PDA and GPS including Sensis mapping. It is
the integration that is likely to bring about problems.


Quoting Dav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> 
> Hi all
> 
> 
> This is not a cheap PDA.
> 
> I have worked in the computer business for a fair while and ASUS are
> certainly NOT a cheap asian supplier, I reckon they are one of, if not the
> best for Desktop PC motherboards and video cards and have had all good
> experience with their laptops also. 
> 
> They certainly are not cheap-in fact the most expensive of the
Taiwan/Asian
> brands.
> 
> A Garmin 72 sells locally for $299 for example, and a PDA for between $300
> and $600 + maps!!!
> 
> Dave L
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 April 2006 3:05 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.; Derek Ruddock
> Cc: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] GPS Navigator with PDA
> 
> I've worked in the consumer GPS industry for over 14 years and all I can
say
> is 
> that in my experience, you get what you pay for.
> 
> Co-pilot mapping uses Sensis map data like most others, but your main
issues
> 
> are likely to be hardware/reliability issues in the cheaper Asian PDA
based 
> models.
> 
> Ian
> 
> Quoting Derek Ruddock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > And it's only $619 at camera house
> > http://www.amerahouse.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=1166
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:aus-soaring-
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Ruddock
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 12 April 2006 12:14 PM
> > > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > > Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] GPS Navigator with PDA
> > > 
> > > It's an ASUS Mypal A636 if anyone wants to investigate further
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:aus-soaring-
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Dawber
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2006 2:06 AM
> > > > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: [Aus-soaring] GPS Navigator with PDA
> > > >
> > > > As Aldi stores often have great bargains - typically something which
> > > is
> > > > there for just a week or so, I have remained on their email list.
> > > > Perhaps someone here could tel

RE: [Aus-soaring] FW: Safety issue in the car when it's raining-please read this! [Switch Cruise Control OFF]

[Matthew Gage]

This does depend on the car being driven.

I have had cars that pick up speed in the following ways:

1. Gearbox
2. Diff
3. Front (non-driven wheel)
4. Front (driven wheel)

In the case of no. 3, it IS feasible that if cruise control was fitted and
active, an aquaplaning front wheel would cause the speed to look like it was
dropping and hence apply more power to the rear wheels, which in this
specific case was a rear engined car, so less likely to have the rear wheels
aquaplane.

Ok, this couldn't have happened as this car never had a model with cruise
control (Hillman Imp for those interested).

So it is theoretically possible, just very unlikely - I don't know of any
car that has the right combination of factors to enable it!



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Raj
Bholanat
Sent: Friday, 5 May 2006 14:10
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] FW: Safety issue in the car when it's
raining-please read this! [Switch Cruise Control OFF]

have to agree...

this is inaccurate in so many ways.

Start with the fact that the speed sensor is connected to the transmission
output (not the wheels).

That alone breaks down the whole argument about speeding up



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Derek
Ruddock
Sent: Friday, 5 May 2006 1:29 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] FW: Safety issue in the car when it's raining
-please read this! [Switch Cruise Control OFF]


Typical of the nonsense that seems to propagate via the internet



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:aus-soaring- 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Wilson
> Sent: Friday, 5 May 2006 1:32 PM
> To: Aus Soaring
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] FW: Safety issue in the car when it's raining
-please read
> this! [Switch Cruise Control OFF]
>
>
>
>   NEVER KNEW THIS BEFORE  ~ NEITHER DID I
>
>
>
>
> A 36-year-old female had an accident several weeks ago and Totalled
her
> car.  A resident of Wollongong, NSW, she was travelling between
> Wollongong  &  Sydney.   It was raining, though not excessively, when
> her car suddenly   began to hydroplane and literally flew through the
> air.
>
> She was not seriously injured but very stunned at the sudden
occurrence!
>
> When she explained  to  the  policeman  what  had  happened, he told 
> her something  that  every  driver  should know - NEVER DRIVE IN THE
> RAIN  WITH   YOUR CRUISE CONTROL ON.  She had thought she was being
> cautious by setting   the cruise  control  and maintaining a safe
> consistent speed in the  rain.
>
> But the policeman told her that if the cruise control is on and your 
> car  begins  to  hydroplane  -- when your tyres lose contact with the
> pavement,   your  car  will accelerate to a higher rate of speed and
you
> take off  like   an airplane. She told the policeman that was exactly
> what had occurred.
>
> [Actually I don't think that is the failure mode, the rear wheels
start
> spinning, cruise control sensors on the front wheels read a slow speed 
> and pours on the power, and the rear wheels spin even more]
>
> The policeman estimated her car was actually travelling through the
air
> at   10 to 15 kms per hour faster than the speed set on the  cruise
> control.
>
> The policeman said this warning  should  be  listed,  on  the driver's
> seat   sun-visor  - NEVER USE THE CRUISE CONTROL WHEN THE PAVEMENT
> IS
> WET OR  ICY,   along  with  the  airbag warning.  We tell our
teenagers
> to set the cruise control  and drive a safe speed - but we don't tell 
> them to use the cruise control only when the road is dry.
>
> The  only  person  the  accident  victim found, who knew this (besides 
> the policeman), was a man who had had a similar accident, totalled his 
> car  and sustained  severe  injuries.
>
> If you send this to 15 people and only one of them  doesn't know about
> this, then it was all worth it. You might  have   saved a life
> ___
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RE: [Aus-soaring] WC team

[Matthew Gage]

I don't think any comp is different (in any sport) !

Unless you go there to have fun, you stand no chance of winning. It doesn't
matter what sport, or what level it is.

My experience of comps in 4 different sports (including several world
championships), at youth, junior and senior levels is that everyone there
has a primary goal of enjoying themselves - ok, some of the youth events had
kids being pushed by parents, but they never did very well and stopped very
quickly.
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Mark Newton
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 June 2006 09:21
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] WC team
> 
> rolf a. buelter wrote:
> 
> > Not sure if you're correct here Mark. I go to the club 
> class nationals 
> > to have fun, in and outside the glider. The social  aspects of comp 
> > flying are just as important to OFITTH's as they are to juniors.
> 
> Sorry, I was just trying to draw a distinction between a "traditional"
> comp and the juniors.  Looks like I picked the wrong one :-)
> 
>- mark
> 
> 
> I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
> - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: 
> +61-8-82231777 - ___
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> 


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RE: [Aus-soaring] Fw: CASA and medical fee

[Matthew Gage]

Just make sure that the GP has known them for at least 3 years, otherwise
use the DAME. The whole argument in favour of using a GP is that they have
the best possible knowledge of the persons overall health. This can only be
built up over time.



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Mark Newton
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2006 08:59
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: CASA and medical fee
> 
> Derek Ruddock wrote:
> 
> > Whilst understanding your view, it’s naïve to think that 
> someone with 
> > a medical condition can’t con a GP.
> 
> I think that's kinda Ian's point:  The $400 you spend on a 
> DAME-endorsed aviation medical doesn't actually provide any 
> benefits over and above what a GP can deliver, so insisting 
> on the $400 DAME-endorsed aviation medical is kinda weird.
> 
>- mark
> 
> 
> I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
> - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: 
> +61-8-82231777 - ___
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> 



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RE: [Aus-soaring] Zeiss lenses for sunglasses

[Matthew Gage]

Not sure on Zeiss, but I was able to get real Oakley 
prescription lenses from the HCF sunglass shop on George 
Street.
 
It took a lot of searching to find anyone who would get the 
lenses I wanted as opposed to substituting theirs with a poor quality tint. I 
actually had to phone Oakley to see who could do them !
 
So If you want the Zeiss lenses, I suggest calling Zeiss 
and see who they supply to, and go there.
 

  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Richard NealeSent: Thursday, 17 August 2006 14:27To: 
  'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'Subject: 
  [Aus-soaring] Zeiss lenses for sunglasses
  
  
  Some time 
  ago (October 04), this list hosted a discussion about lenses for sunglasses 
  that provide optimal performance for glider pilots. There seemed to be support 
  for the Zeiss Skylet range of lenses. These lenses have the brown-ish tint 
  that enhances contrast and which apparently increases the pilot’s ability to 
  detect haze domes and such. I believe that lenses from the standard Skylet 
  range are not polarised.
   
  It’s time to 
  replace the (prescription) lenses in my sunglasses. Upon reviewing the Zeiss 
  web site, I notice that there is now a range of lenses known as Skypol. The 
  web site seems to suggest that Skypol lenses combine the contrast-enhancing 
  characteristics of the Skylet range with the glare-reducing benefits of 
  polarised lenses.
   
  Two 
  questions:
   
  1. Has 
  anybody used Zeiss Skypol lenses and, if so, how do they perform for glider 
  pilots?
   
  2. Does 
  anybody know of an optometrist (optical dispenser) in Sydney who has any 
  knowledge of or experience in sunglasses for aviation? I have visited several 
  national chains, and they either don’t carry Zeiss lenses at all, or have no 
  ability to advise as to the suitability of the lenses. (I’d really like to 
  have a look at some samples, and to carry them out into the 
  sun…)
   
  Thanks,
   
  Richard.
   
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Pilot eyes

[Matthew Gage]

Mike,

Make that over 30.

Anyone who could benefit from correction for any purpose will benefit from
this when flying.

I can live with no real issue without my glasses - distance and close up are
fine, I just get tired eyes after 6 hours in front of a screen.

My prescription is to deal with a slight astigmatism (+0.5/-0.75), the same
in both eyes.

Having recently obtained prescription sunglasses (Oakley - with an Oakley
prescription lens), mainly because I got them for $14 using my health fund
rather than pay a lot more for non-prescription ones, I was stunned at just
how much better I see other aircraft at any distance, and how much less
tired my eyes are after flying.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Mike Borgelt
> Sent: Thursday, 9 November 2006 09:43
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pilot eyes
> 
> At 11:02 PM 8/11/2006, you wrote:
> >>
> >Yes, but most glider pilots do not use mark one, it is more 
> likely mark 
> >50 or 60 or 70 and unlike other devices that tend to get better with 
> >increasing mark number, the same cannot be said about the eyeball.
> >Also, most are not mounted on stalks, hence they tend to 
> develop those 
> >strange things called blind spots and not even mark one is too 
> >effective there.  Worst of all, they are driven and their output is 
> >interpreted by a multitasking processor that is often distracted, 
> >fatigued, dehydrated, overloaded etc. etc..
> >So whilst pretty good, I am sure a bit of help from a device 
> that does 
> >not suffer from any of the above could be useful.
> >
> >Paul Bart
> 
> Whilst medical exams for pilots have been shown to have 
> questionable value in general perhaps you make a good case 
> for eye exams  particularly for pilots who operate in a 100% 
> VFR environment like gliding?
> 
> Anyone over 40 who isn't having regular eye checkups just 
> doesn't understand the problem.
> 
> If this is you, pick up the phone and book one now!
> 
> Mike
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring 
> instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>Int'l + 61 429 355784
> email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
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> 


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RE: [Aus-soaring] GPS units - opinions please...

[Matthew Gage]

Scott,

Just 1 small correction.

Each extra glider fitted with a "sensibly" used Flarm will add to safety,
and knowing there are (not may be) gliders that don't have it reminds you to
keep the eyes looking out. The biggest saving is that having located a
glider AND correlated this to a Flarm signal, you can spend much less time
thinking about this target, and much more looking for the ones you haven't
seen yet.



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Scott Penrose
> Sent: Thursday, 9 November 2006 10:11
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GPS units - opinions please...
> 
> I think it will happen one day - I think it is inevitable. 
> But I also think it is 20 years away. That might be 
> pessimistic, but in other ways it is also very optimistic :-)
> 
> FLARM has not been around long enough to have statistics to 
> prove the safety - therefore it is all predictions. It is a 
> shame but that is the way of life - we have to make a guess 
> (albeit educated) then get the stats.
> 
> However - it is statistics that show that most inflight 
> glider accidents are glider to glider - not other aircraft.
> 
> But we really need to squash this myth that you must have all 
> aircraft with them before there is increased safety. I am not 
> sure how that started but it is HIGHLY incorrect ! By all 
> account it makes no sense, statistically or logically. Every 
> extra aircraft to have a FLARM (flying in the same area of 
> course) increases safety. Having all would of course be a 
> dream come true - but don't hold your breath. Some gliders 
> still don't carry radio and we know that adds to safety. We 
> will have aircraft in the skys for a long time without a 
> common collision avoidance - but it will be within most of 
> our lives that I think we will see that change :-)
> 
> Scott
> 
> On 08/11/2006, at 20:24, Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON wrote:
> 
> >
> > I am not knocking FLARM but to be truly effective there has 
> to be an 
> > across the board acceptance by all G and E airspace users 
> to a common 
> > standard of electronic position sharing. I live in hope.
> >
> 
> --
> * - *  http://www.osdc.com.au - Open Source Developers 
> Conference * - * Scott Penrose Anthropomorphic 
> Personification Expert http://search.cpan.org/search?author=SCOTT
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Dismaimer: While every attempt has been made to make sure 
> that this email only contains zeros and ones, there has been 
> no effort made to guarantee the quantity or the order.
> 
> Please do not send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> 
> Microsoft is not the answer. It's the question. And the answer is no.
> 
> 
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Kookaburra GRZ Test Flight!

[Matthew Gage]

And use the time to really learn how to navigate without the GPS.

Helps when:

GPS signal is bad
You select the "wrong" way point (makes retrieves interesting when you are
given a distance from the field and on track from XXX when really they were
on track from YYY !)

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
> Of Mitchell Preston
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 22:13
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Kookaburra GRZ Test Flight!
> 
> Congratulations to the KPS(&R)T. The Kooka looks grand. It's 
> great to see an example of mid-twentieth century 'cellulose 
> fibre' technology back in the air!
> 
> On another topic, my thanks to all who 'pitched in' regarding 
> my question on GPS units. The depth and breadth of replies 
> was truly impressive; there is certainly a large body of 
> knowledge lurking amongst the constituents of this forum. You 
> may all like to know I've decided to buy $500 worth of 
> launches instead just to make sure that I actually have the 
> skill to go XC soaring... ; )
> 
> Mitch.
> 
> 
> On 15/11/2006, at 9:04 AM, Caleb White wrote:
> 
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Apologies for sending attachments (I've tried to keep them 
> small) but 
> > it's 'proud father' time. Yesterday morning Kookaburra GRZ 
> > successfully completed a 41 minute test flight at Bacchus Marsh; 
> > restored by the KPST after 15 YEARS IN STORAGE in WA.
> >
> > GRZ started life in December 1960 with the GCV before 
> migrating to WA 
> > where she flew with the CGWA, Goldfields Gliding Club and 
> many others.
> >
> > Many thanks to everyone who assisted with her 'paddock crossing'  
> > especially Don Woodward, Les and Ash Boyle, Alf Williams and Kevin 
> > Saunders.
> >
> > David and I look forward to many happy years of soaring in GRZ. If 
> > anyone would like more information or photos please don't 
> hesitate to 
> > email me.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Caleb
> >
> > Kookaburra Precision Soaring (and Restoring) Team
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Video of power aircraft having a mid airwith a glider tow rope

[Matthew Gage]

Stop whinging, and look at satellite broadband instead- e.g.

http://www.clearnetworks.com.au/satellite.html

There are others available as well.


On 22/1/07 1:49 PM, "Christopher Mc Donnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Gee! I hate it when these sort of links are given.
> Here at home I can only get 28.8 kbps dial up.
> Not the senders  fault, the fault is Ziggy's or Sol's.
> Hope Simon Hackett & Cathy Conway of Agile Communications hurry up with the
> wireless transmission upgrade on Mt Barker Summit.
> Sheeshs!  I'm a stone's throw from a major capital city.
> 
> Chris McDonnell
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mike Borgelt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> 
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Video of power aircraft having a mid airwith a
> glider tow rope
> 
> 
>> At 09:17 AM 22/01/2007, you wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> I've just come across the following...
>>> 
>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTemKnL8X30
>>> 
>>> 
>>> which is pretty amazing.
>>> 
>>> It illustrates a point about the poor visibility from inside high wing
>>> monoplanes and tug planes. I don't think that the power aircraft could
>>> have seen the incoming tug/glider combination but I am surprised that both
>>> the tug and glider pilots did not see the conflicting traffic.
>>> 
>>> It's a good illustration of the point I make to students that they
>>> *cannot* concentrate just on looking at the tug - but that more general
>>> lookout *has* to be maintained.
>>> 
>>> The accident could have been much worse if instead of snagging the tow
>>> rope, the power traffic had hit either the tug or the glider.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Robert Hart  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> +61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Looks like the towplane was climbing quite steeply. I'd have throught that
>> the high wing of the ultralight wouldn't get in the way.
>> 
>> Mike
>> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
>> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
>> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
>> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>>   Int'l + 61 429 355784
>> email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
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> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps

[Matthew Gage]

Try

Sailing
Triathlon
Motor Sport

For starters, and only because these are the only other sports I have
competed in at at least a regional level (as in State).



On 30/1/07 1:46 PM, "David Lawley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Nick said:
>  
> ³Any location for a competition can specify local rules that can, in some
> cases, override certain sections of the nationals rules.²
>  
> Yep and that is exactly what seems strange, as I said name any other National
> sport that allows state organizers to do this.
>  
> A passing comment or two actually doesn¹t mean a lot of interest in comps
> Nick, just an interest in equity of rules.
>  
> How about addressing the point? (Which I am obviously going to have to
> simplify for you) Why are individual states locals be allowed to override
> National Championship rules?
>  
> Regards
>  
> Dave
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gilbert
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2007 12:08 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps
>  
> 
> What you are talking about is states being allowed to apply local rules to a
> national contest. Incidently, this (generally speaking) is not a state based
> thing. Any location for a competition can specify local rules that can, in
> some cases, override certain sections of the nationals rules.
> 
>  
> 
> For someone with no interest in competitons you certainly seem to be showing a
> lot of interest in competitions.
> 
>  
> 
> Nick.
> 
>  
> 
> On 1/30/07, David Lawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Huh? Re read my post Nick- I never said that State rules apply to Nationals,
> or nationals rules apply to state comps, I said it seemed strange to allow
> states to change the nationals rules or introduce new ones to suit
> themselves when THEY run a particular nationals i.e. I believe (correct me
> if I am wrong)mandatory FLARM at recent Queensland held nationals was a
> STATE decision not national body decision.(Note: Example only FLARMnatics
> need not respond) National comps should be based on Nationally decided rules
> not any one states whim.
> 
> Of course, each State can have their own comp rules for state comps-but
> logic would seem to dictate using the same rules as national championships
> to help people prepare properly for the next level up of comp.
> 
> I will try to find the reference to such matters regarding competing at
> regional competitions to qualify for a comp license (could be a US thing).
> BTW I have no interest in comps myself, just thought it strange that the
> national rules could be changed at the whim of a state that is holding them,
> I know of no other sport that allows this, although I am sure Victoria
> wouldn't mind changing some footy rules so they could (maybe) win a
> premiership again eventually(-:
> 
> Regards
> 
> Dave L
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  ] On Behalf Of
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2007 10:19 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps
> 
> Dave,
> 
> The nationals rules don't apply to state competitions - they apply to
> national competitions. Makes perfect sense to me. The state based
> competitions arent modifying the nationals rules - they have their own.
> Good thing too, they are entry level events.
> 
> The state based cricket competition doesn't play 5 day test matches.
> 
> Regards,
>  
> Nick Gilbert
> Lotus Notes Administrator - Hardy Wines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "David Lawley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 30/01/2007 10:03 AM
> Please respond to
> "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>   >
> 
> 
> To
> "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
> 
> cc
> 
> Subject 
> RE: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Whereas I thought I read somewhere that one qualified for a FAI comp
> license
> in part by entering regional competitions, a bit of a catch 22 this eh?
> 
> No license, no compete, no compete no license! Why am I not surprised!
> 
> One thing I have never been able to fathom is how States are allowed to
> modify the nationals rules at will, it seems to me they should be decided
> Nationally, and states should not be able to tack on their own extras,
> such
> as mandatory FLARM without National body approval of a rule change.
> 
> It seems crazy to allow this to me, and I can think of no other sport that
> does this sort of thing. National comp rules should be a matter for
> national
> consideration, not the whim of a state body.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Dave L.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robinson,
> Peter B
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2007 8:43

Re: [Aus-soaring] Sports rules in general - was Horsham Week / VIC State Comps

[Matthew Gage]

Dave,

It depends on the sport.

The rules I faced in Triathlon varied specifically in respect to ³drafting²
when cycling (and swimming). Although at the time the International and
National rules permitted it, most regional comps (in the UK) banned it. This
actually make a huge difference to the sport, placing much more emphasis on
running than either swimming or cycling as those weaker in those disciplines
can now get a free ride.

Sailing changes many rules like you suggest. Particularly in match racing ­
each ³heat² for a national championship may well take place in different
types of boat with different crew numbers (from 3 to 8 from experience).
However, in general, it will be mandatory safety equipment that is altered
at a local level based on the venue, and state or national legislation (for
international events) - unlike gliding, sailing has fixed international
rules that can not be changed on a national or local basis, however, the
event structure can. E.g. Choice of boats, crew limits (number of weight),
handicap systems (if any), safety equipment, required qualifications,
scoring, penalties, etc.

Motor Racing, depending on the exact type is similar again !




On 30/1/07 3:52 PM, "David Lawley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>  
> Thank you Ross for your post it certainly addresses my actual question at
> last!
>  
> I was referring to sports of a similar format that have a single national comp
> to decide the national champ, not sports where a series of regional events
> produces a national champ. Do the actual rules of the way a race car is
> prepared or the events raced in a triathlon, or the length of a boat in
> competition change from state comp to state comp at the whim of the state,
> site safety related factors are simply not what I was referring to.
>  
> Site related safety rules as some have mentioned are not what I was trying to
> get understand, it was cases such as my example, where a new rule based on
> local preference not directly site safety related issues is made, overriding
> National rules. Sorry if I didn¹t make that clear enough!
>  
> Regards
>  
> Dave
>  
>  
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ross McLean
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2007 2:28 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps
>  
> 
> Hi David
> I am one of two elected pilot representatives to the National Competition
> Committee (NCC) for National Multi Class and I would like to try to address
> your point, which is a good one, and one with which I largely agree.
>  
> In the particular instance you referred to, the compulsory FLARM rule applied
> by Queensland Gliding as a local rule to the National Multi Class Competition
> in October  2006 was discussed at length at NCC and as a result there was then
> subsequent, detailed, and co-operative discussion with QG on the rule.  The QG
> rules were modified as a result of that input and it was then agreed at NCC to
> respect the QG rule, on compulsory FLARM, and to allow it as a local rule, for
> that competition. The NCC most probably could have stood its ground and
> insisted that the rule be waived at a National level, but it was agreed not to
> become confrontational on issues regarding safety.  I think that was a good
> decision.
>  
> I have no doubt that there will be further discussion at NCC and at the Sports
> Committee, on the wider issue of National Rules not being overridden at
> National competitions, when they meet later this year.
>  
> Hope this helps.
> Regards, ROSS
>  
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Lawley
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2007 1:47 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps
>  
> Nick said:
>  
> ³Any location for a competition can specify local rules that can, in some
> cases, override certain sections of the nationals rules.²
>  
> Yep and that is exactly what seems strange, as I said name any other National
> sport that allows state organizers to do this.
>  
> A passing comment or two actually doesn¹t mean a lot of interest in comps
> Nick, just an interest in equity of rules.
>  
> How about addressing the point? (Which I am obviously going to have to
> simplify for you) Why are individual states locals be allowed to override
> National Championship rules?
>  
> Regards
>  
> Dave
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gilbert
> Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2007 12:08 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week / VIC State Comps
>  
> 
> What you are talking about is states being allowed to apply local rules to a
> national contest. Incidently, this (generally speaking) is not a state based
> thing. Any location for a competition can specify local rules that can,

Re: [Aus-soaring] .Flarm antenna

[Matthew Gage]

Mike,

TCAS is actually incapable of "causing" an accident. Pilots do that !

However, incorrect use of TCAS can cause an accident.

TCAS requires BOTH pilots to do what TCAS directs for the desired outcome to
be provided. If ONE does something different, then an accident can (AND HAS)
occur.

I'm sure the pilots you asked MUST be aware of the mid air over Germany /
Switzerland in 2002.


Now Flarm is different to TCAS is a very important aspect, and I hope this
never changes. FLARM warns about proximity and collision risk. It does not
DIRECT pilots on what to do.

Doing so could be very dangerous - It would require both pilots to do
exactly as directed, something I really doubt would happen in practice, and
also presumes no other aircraft in in close proximity, again something that
will exists. At mid-air from Benalla this year, there were 3 other gliders
very close.


On 2/2/07 7:57 AM, "Mike Borgelt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 09:18 PM 1/02/2007, you wrote:
>> To put it simply, it sounds similar to the incident at Benalla.  I
>> had someone to my left and behind at about the same altitude.  Even
>> though the red light would have been on I don't remember seeing
>> it.  I guess I had my eye's outside of the cockpit.  Anyway I looked
>> left to do a 180.  With no traffic sighted I started a sharp
>> turn.  Straight away the alarm sounded so I immediatly straightened
>> up and saw the red light.  I did a turn to the right and then left
>> to find the other glider only to see it behind and close.
>> 
>> Was it a close call maybe..maybe not, but I'm glad Flarm
>> stopped the situation before I got to find out.
>> 
>> Chad Nowak
> 
> Chad,
> 
> Thank you for that. Obviously the other glider was FLARM equipped.
> Did you talk to the pilot later? If so what was his take on the
> situation? Did he think there was  a bad situation at any time?
> 
>  From your description of your manouevers I'd expect a glider behind
> would have caught up somewhat by the time you completed them.
> 
> BTW I asked two pilots with lots of experience flying "in the system"
> and they aren't aware of any TCAS caused accidents.
> 
> Mike
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>Int'l + 61 429 355784
> email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Hydration - unloading

[Matthew Gage]

Try using a bag first, and practice a lot before flying !

Get a bigger (and thicker) bag than you think ­ I use large ziplock freezer
bags, but don¹t zip them ­ twist the top after filling, and throw downwards
through the window.

First try sitting in the bath ­ helps with the psychological issues of
thinking you will get wet ! You could also try putting the business part of
nappy in the bag to begin with ­ it soaks up everything.

Once comfortable (ok, can manage without too much trouble), practice in the
cockpit on the ground so you can find a sensible seating configuration ­
move the pedals, seat back (if possible), etc ­ again using the nappy to
begin with, just in case !

It then becomes much easier. I probably pee every 60 ­ 90 mins in the air,
and drink 3/4 litre per hour, sometimes more !


On 2/2/07 10:26 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  G'day
>  
> Peter S said - "but NOTHING beats the pee tube!"  I wish!
>  
> How I wish I could use it easily. I am cursed with a shy bladder and it seems
> as part of that problem initiating flow can be extremly difficult for me in
> the cockpit. I have achieved the feat once only, and that after great
> discomfort and pain.
> Has anyone overcome this problem? How did you do it?
>  
> Grant Harper
> 
> Check out the new AOL
>  %3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol> . Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the
> web, free AOL Mail and more.
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Horse-drawn Zeppelin dealer in Australia?

[Matthew Gage]

I believe that strong sh*t would be "gorilla" ;)

Usual vintage groups would settle for the less strong Dope !


On 1/3/07 5:26 PM, "Ben Loxton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think you lot have been smoking some strong sh*t at your "Vintage
> rallies"..i mean WTF??
> :-)
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> On 01/03/2007, at 5:04 PM, Mitchell Preston wrote:
> 
>> Bugger. Looks like I'll have to think of another type of
>> dealership. Bluebottle, bring me my 'dealership ideas' trousers and
>> a cup of fibreglass tea. Oh, and tell JR to put down that echidna
>> and get back to rounding up the cuttlefish.
>> 
>> Seddie Neagoon.
>> 
>> 
>> On 28/02/2007, at 10:59 PM, Caleb White wrote:
>> 
>>> You realise this means the end of the horse drawn zeppelin!
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:54:02 +1030
>>> Subject: Re: Re: [Aus-soaring] Lak dealer in Australia?
>>> 
>>> So you admit it then ?
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Zeiss Skypol

[Matthew Gage]

I think any option that uses a quality manufacturer for the complete lens
package will be good.

Having now had 12 months using Oakley¹s, I would definitely get them again.

I use the M-Frame, with a VR28 lens. My initial thought was that I would
also need a darker lens (the M-Frame has interchangeable lenses and a case
to hold multiples), but in practice, I haven¹t needed one. For more details,
go to the Oakley web site and find their Rx pages.

On 15/3/07 10:47 AM, "Christopher Mc Donnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I am going to the optician next week to get some new glasses.
> Last time the list was discussing glasses for gliding, according to the
> aus-soaring archive, opinion seems to have settled in favour of Zeiss Skypol.
>  
> Any new opinions?
>  
> As there seems to be an ignorance of, or supply problem with these lenses, I
> wanted to start discussing things with my provider before I go to avoid the
> hassles others have had. Luckily I think my Opto has some commercial pilots as
> clients so it may be a breeze.
>  
> Chris McDonnell 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Tost wheel brakes

[Matthew Gage]

Neither certification or design are the issue at all here ! Training is.

A glider certified with a wheel brake needs it working to be serviceable.
This is explicitly stated in operating regs in several other countries as
well.

As others are saying, the airbrake lever is probably the best location for
the wheel brake, as the handle is already being gripped when landing.

Now for training:

A pilot who has been trained to spot land WITHOUT needing the wheel brake
will NEVER (or almost never) be at full airbrake at touch down so this isn't
an issue for them at all.

Pilots who routinely land with full airbrake will certainly need a fully
working wheel brake at some point.

Everyone may well find the need for a wheel brake that works optimally at
some point - to find that someone has deliberately tampered with it is not
going to go down well with the coroner !



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Re: glider feel - was Re: [Aus-soaring] Pipcher K-4?

[Matthew Gage]

My personal view is that the Cirrus has fantastic feel from the  
elevator - you are feeling the airflow over the elevator, not  
artificial forces imposed by a trim system - as is the case with the  
Skylark 4, which I rate as the most unpleasant glider I have flown  
for feel. Try flying 2 knots faster or slower than trimmed for, and  
it's a better workout than at the gym !


If on the other hand, you are looking for "cruise control", then the  
Cirrus doesn't have a good one at all !


Remember, this is always a personal and subjective view. I know  
others who love the feel of the Skylark, and hate the Cirrus.


Having said this, I have enjoyed flying all 30+ types I have had the  
chance to fly so far - just some more than others. No comment on the  
Libelle, Hornet, Mossie, etc as I have never flown them.





On 17/04/2007, at 11:50 PM, JR wrote:

Surely Bruce you cannot say that a cirrus has feel in the elevator  
circuit ? and as for hornets libelles mosquito,s they are nice and  
light on the controls, you think them around the sky, beautiful, a  
sailplane you can fly all day and still feel refreshed , I just  
like flying, and I dont mind most of the machines we have in  
Australia, my dislikes of some types comes from working on them.

regards JR
- Original Message -
From: Bruce Campbell
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pipcher K-4?

Mitch,

Std Cirrus is MUCH nicer to fly than a Libelle. Just don't let go  
of the stick, and don't fly it at the aft limit.


Aileron/rudder coord is perfect. Libelle is shocking. Elevator is  
not pitch sensitive as such, it is just low stick force per G. That  
sounds counter-intuitive, but for normal control movements it is  
not sensitive, but excessive movements produce large G loading -  
esp if you let go of the stick and it gets a gust or something -  
then the stick goes to full travel (either way) and you get a large  
G response. Easy fix - DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK.


I never had PIO in a Std Cirrus, and I've flown 7 of them now. I  
did have PIO in a Hornet (piece of junk) as there is no "feel" to  
the stick at all.


Cheers

Bruce






On 17/04/07, Mitchell Preston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Looks like the result of a Piper Cub and a K4 having a quick
'liaison' behind a hangar...

Speaking of all-moving tails (boom tish!), I always found myself at
least 10 seconds behind the similarly-adorned Janus that BT used to
have at his Kentucky ops. I've never quite worked up the courage to
get back into a glider of the AMT species. I'm sure my fears are
unfounded - just a case of once bitten etc. I dips me lid to you Std
Cirrus drivers. Can't be any more 'difficult' to fly than a Std
Libelle, can they? On the topic of glider handling characteristics,
an open question to all and sundry (and JR): which glider has had you
walking away from it after landing saying "Thanks, but no thanks"? I
don't mean the Libelle, by the way (my father had one - I thought it
was tops).

Alf Lying-Tale.




On 17/04/2007, at 7:57 AM, Caleb White wrote:

> That's actually one of the more tasteful K-4 motor conversions I've
> seen photos of.
>

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Re: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia

[Matthew Gage]

Slight correction for you. The BGA DO investigate ALL accidents and  
incidents AND publish a report on all of them in their magazine. The  
ATSB call in those that look of interest to them, or are likely to be  
asked about by politicians - these have a more complete write up -  
mostly because the investigator is paid to investigate, and is not  
just another volunteer.


Sadly, too many of these look to be stall/spin accidents. Even more  
unfortunately, we don't know what the real cause in each was, just  
the last couple of factors.


They got too low, then too slow and spun with insufficient height to  
recover. We don't know why they got too low in the first place, and  
the pilots are not here to ask.


With the numbers of loggers and Flarms being fitted to gliders now,  
we have a chance of looking in more detail at accidents. The ATSB  
should be persuaded that although the accident looks to be the same,  
because there is more evidence, there is a chance to better  
understand causes.


We can then work on the full sequence of events that lead up to the  
accident (through education and training). e.g. Was the spin in  
outlanding caused by leaving it too late to pick a paddock, or by  
poor selection realised late and another paddock picked in a hurry ?  
Was it flying over unlandable country and only just making it to the  
other side ? Did the pilot have someone jibbering at them on the  
radio ? Did they attempt a proper circuit ? Did they attempt a  
circuit when there was no prospect of completing one ? The list is  
endless.



On 19/04/2007, at 11:48 PM, Christopher H Thorpe wrote:

It seems to me that most of us get to hear about accidents and  
their likely causes quite soon after they happen, predominantly  
through this forum.  While I do not vouch for the accuracy of the  
following recollection, I suspect it is not too far off the pace.






2004 Astir near Bendigo



· Tried to thermal away from low height on early (first?)  
cross-country flight.  Spun in from a height too low to recover.




2005 IS29 near Dalby



· Tried to thermal away from low height on a cross-country  
flight in a glider in which the pilot had limited experience.  Spun  
in from a height too low to recover.




2005 Janus at Gympie



· Low in circuit on passenger flight. Passed up earlier  
opportunities to land only to spin in from too low a height to  
recover when attempting an outlanding.




2005 LS7 near Benalla



· Mid-air collision during lead and follow.  Both pilots  
aware of each other.  Collision possibly due to misjudgement when  
one joined the other in a thermal.




2006 Blanik at Lockhart



· Collision with winch wire.  Non-standard circuit  
procedures involving landing from opposite end to take-off while  
winch was operating.  Apparently no one identified the risk in this  
practice.




2006 Alpin at Caboolture



· Non-GFA pilot trying to operate RAAus registered motor  
glider in glider mode without appropriate training.  Spun in from a  
height too low to recover.




2006 Mosquito at Gulgong



· Stalled and spun off a winch launch.



2006 Stemme near Camden



· Mid-air fire, probably caused by leaking fuel hose.  Said  
to have occurred previously in this type.




2007 Pucatek at Keepit



· Overran runway into fence.  As I recall, Bruce Taylor, in  
a post at the time, related some possible causal factors.




The above is essentially a brief synopsis of what (If my  
recollection is correct) happened.  However, we are also interested  
to know why each accident occurred so that we may take the lessons  
on board to prevent a repeat.  However, reading this list one would  
have to notice that none of these accidents is new – similar  
accidents have occurred in the past – so why haven’t we been able  
to stop them?




In the above cases, did an accident occur because pilots pushed the  
margins?  Were they distracted, or suffering an illness, or became  
incapacitated?  Was it over confidence, inexperience or poor  
training?  Was it weather/environment related?  Was it  
airworthiness related (like the Stemme accident)?  The list goes on!




In many cases we are unlikely to ever know the real reason why  
these accidents occurred or the factors leading up to it.   On the  
other hand, there will be some cases where it is quite clear why  
the accident occurred and then we need to consider was there  
culpability, ineptness, unforeseen circumstances, or other “human  
factors” at work.




It is unrealistic to expect such in-depth analysis of such very  
basic accidents.  It is also unrealistic to expect someone within  
the GFA to pen a report for all to see pointing blame at a  
particular individual or organisation, for in the end any such  
analysis is mostly an hypothesis and open to challenge or litigation.




Someone earlier mentioned the UK, USA and German gliding  
authorities publish acci

Re: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia

[Matthew Gage]

Interesting point.

Getting in the habit of flying the glider in the correct  
configuration and at the correct speed for the current situation is  
more important than rattling through a check list, particularly when  
most people have nothing to do with 2 actions in many training gliders.


People don't get hurt landing wheels up (except in the pocket). They  
do by running through the fence, or stalling whilst responding to  
radio messages / warning alarms about the wheel being up - I've  
watched both happen, fortunately, with only minor injuries, but  
serious damage to the gliders.


If people are not flying at the correct speed, with suitable flap  
settings when low (whether or not in circuit), they should not be  
solo in that glider. Again, if they are not correctly trimmed at all  
times (assuming it is possible), there is a more fundamental issue  
that needs resolving.





On 24/04/2007, at 1:39 PM, JR wrote:

When you do your checks, do you say them out-loud, or in your head,  
and do
you physicaly touch or do you just look for where things are, I  
remember an
accident/incident in a powered aircraft, that a rear seat passenger  
had a
video camera and was filming at the time of the emergency, and when  
the

authorities looked at the footage, the pilot never moved anything, but
actually touched everything in the emergency check list as he was  
shown
during training, never actually having an emergency, just going  
through the

motions, ( probably in more ways than one ). Interesting though ,
JR
- Original Message -
From: "Texler, Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia


Many accidents seem to be along the lines of familiarity breeding  
contempt
(as evidenced by experienced pilots being involved in serious  
accidents).


When you look through the accident synopses, a common thread is a  
cutting
of corners or not following accepted practice or procedure (i.e. Mt  
Hotham
chieftan crash, Lockhart River). Or doing something that you have  
not been

adequately trained and briefed in.


I would have to check, but it seems that instructors are over  
represented

in Gliding accidents.

This may be in part that they do more flying, and are exposed to the
higher risk phases (i.e. take-off landing) of flight more often  
(number of

take-offs and landings) than non-instructors. Talking from experience,
things can go awry quickly because you may be underloaded and then
overloaded. As instructors (and as non-instructors) expect and plan  
for

emergencies always.


I am sure no-one ever deliberately goes out to have an accident, but
lapses of judgement do occur. When these do occur, there needs to  
be mature
reflection with a no blame approach (hence to foster a reporting  
culture of

near misses so we can all learn).


It is up to us as pilots to have good self-checks in place as well as
redundancy. And as instructors to impress upon our students and  
other pilots

to have good inflight discipline and to foster a safety culture.


For example, when I fly power, I do a downwind check (e.g. Brakes,
Undercarriage (three greens), Mixture, Fuel Tanks and Pumps On, ? 
Cowl Flaps

set as required, Flaps set appropriately, All Harnesses secured)


Then on final I do a PUFFC check
(Props set full fine, Undercarriage locked down (three greens),  
Landing

Flaps, Cowl Flaps, Clearance to land received)


So you can see some duplication here, may seem silly, but less  
expensive

than a wheels up.


So could there be merit in a FUST check on final as well as downwind?

Just thinking out aloud.

M.T.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia

[Matthew Gage]

Exactly why a rigid downwind check is not a good idea, but training  
to have the glider in the correct configuration for phase of flight  
is. In an ideal world, the 2 coincide. When they don't, expect trouble.


I wonder how many wheel up incidents are preceded by no downwind leg ?


On 26/04/2007, at 8:52 AM, Peter Stephenson wrote:

When I have decided to land, I put down the under carriage.  Then  
in the circuit, I look at the placard and touch (push or pull) the  
undercarriage lever and make sure it is locked down, and repeat the  
locking  check a couple of times in the circuit in a OCD manner.
I have had one landing with U/C up and one near one. Both were in a  
Blanik (for those that do not know, is not a disaster, just  
embarrassing).  Both times I was early in my career as an  
instructor in the back and I have not done it YET when solo or with  
a passenger.


The first time, I heard my student do the checks but I did not  
check him as he was making me feel anxious with his circuit and my  
head was outside the cockpit.
I have also had one near landing with U/C up when the student (also  
a licensed power pilot) picked up our mistake on final whilst doing  
his power PUFF check.  We did not do a downwind (hence no checks)  
as we joined the circuit on base leg as were caught out low after  
some tasks.


PeterS

JR wrote:
When you do your checks, do you say them out-loud, or in your  
head, and do
you physicaly touch or do you just look for where things are, I  
remember an
accident/incident in a powered aircraft, that a rear seat  
passenger had a
video camera and was filming at the time of the emergency, and  
when the
authorities looked at the footage, the pilot never moved anything,  
but
actually touched everything in the emergency check list as he was  
shown
during training, never actually having an emergency, just going  
through the

motions, ( probably in more ways than one ). Interesting though ,
JR


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Parachute repacking

[Matthew Gage]

Normal comp requirements are for it to be repacked in accordance with  
manufactures instructions, or 6 months, which ever is earlier.

Personally, i would prefer to wear a parachute beyond its repack date  
than not wear one at all.


On 24/05/2007, at 14:15 , John Giddy wrote:

> Robinson, Peter B wrote:
>> There must be lots of parachutes out of date unless everyone is  
>> posting
>> them to Sydney for a repack.
>>
>> Maybe GFA could review the 4 month repack requirement to a view to
>> extending it until something can be resolved.
>>
> AFAIK the 120 day repack time is set by the manufacturer, not GFA ??
> John G.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Parachute repacking

[Matthew Gage]

Agree to a point.

But they would of course be happy if the out of date chute was left  
in the clubhouse.

I would personally fly with a parachute that had not been packed for  
a year rather than fly without one at all.

Your example is based on flying or not flying. Only when parachute  
wearing is mandated is that comparison reasonable

On 25/05/2007, at 8:11 , Mark Newton wrote:

> Lucas James wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 May 2007 01:27:59 Stueh Stueh wrote:
>>> More out of curiosity here. So, if say, a club, were to have a  
>>> "private"
>>> competition, and it's not a GFA recognised contest, then there  
>>> would be no
>>> parachute restrictions?
>>>
>>
>> In theory, probably.  The club would then have to take the  
>> insurance risk, as
>> they are operating outside the GFA guidelines.
>
> Indeed.
>
> Even outside of comps, clubs should keep their parachutes current.  In
> the event of a fatal mid-air, an insurance company is unlikely to be
> entertained by the notion that a club had supplied life-saving safety
> equipment which is classed as "unserviceable" by GFA regs.  If a club
> is going to provide such equipment, it has a duty to ensure that it
> meets basic airworthiness requirements.
>
> (You wouldn't fly a glider with an out-of-date maintenance release.
> Would you fly with an out-of-date parachute?)
>
>- mark
>
> 
> I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
> - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82356937 -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Promoting Gliding

[Matthew Gage]

And what would be achieved from such a venture ?

Many more people turning up for an AEF and not joining a club ?

More joining, but the same problem existing of only a fraction  
staying beyond a year ?


Ah, we would feel good that the sport finally got the attention we  
believe it deserves.


As others have stated, the numbers problem is NOT attracting people  
in the first place. It is retaining them.


I really doubt the clubs could seriously manage the demand that mass  
marketing could provide. Even if the extra AEFs could be handled  
without annoying the hell out of existing members by monopolising  
gliders and launches, if we did attract a huge number of new members,  
would we have the capacity to train them ?


Before we can handle more people getting started, we MUST reduce the  
drop out rate, and if we do that, we probably don't need to spend  
vast sums on mass marketing like this.





On 20/06/2007, at 21:54 , Mitchell Preston wrote:


SDF et al,

Indeed, a well-made doco on the 'sexier' aspects of our corner of  
the sport aviation sandpit would be a great promotional device.  
There are perhaps a few things to ponder further:


1. Cost. To shoot even a 5 minute doco of TV broadcast quality is  
an expensive exercise. Before the howls of "I' have a videocamera,  
I could do it" erupt, let me say that for any program to have even  
a snowflake's chance in hell on the ABC, let alone the commercial  
channels, it has to be of 'industry standard' broadcast quality.  
Admittedly there are many great mid-range vid cams on the market  
than can produce quality images, however that's only part of the  
challenge. Good audio and great editing are essential; just look at  
much of the 'general' YouTube stuff to see the 'abuse' of video  
editing software transition effects and the like, as well as hear  
crap audio. Getting the result required would mean a professional  
cinematographer, sound recordist and editor, not to mention someone  
to produce the doco as well. May be the GFA has some money in the  
coffers, or do we all cough up an extra $20 in a future GFA  
membership renewal to fund such an exercise?


2. 'Packaging' and marketing. I've mentioned the ABC and the  
commercial TV channels; having the 'goods' in the form of a 'sexy'  
doco is a great start, however the challenge  continues in  
'pitching' to the broadcasters in order to get the footage on many  
small screens and out to many people. Television networks are  
notoriously fickle beasties in regard to what they will and won't  
screen, so further professional help may be required in preparing  
the right 'message' for the network progam poobahs. No doubt  
there's a range of opportunities in the form of 'lifestyle' shows  
etc; massaging the message to present a compelling case for  
broadcast is a reality these days. Perhaps  bit of the dreaded  
'market research' may be required (or evidence of it...) in order  
to play the TV 'game' and get the material out to the population.


3. Story development. SDF mentions this and it's a critical  
element. The 'Gladiators' theme is a  good start, as it has  
'combat', 'struggle' and 'victor/vanquished' all wrapped up in  
there. Contemporary TV viewers consume a bizarre diet of news,  
'reality' programs (no such thing in my opinion, because unlike  
reality, they're all contrived!), docos, sport, drama and Lotto  
results. What do all good TV programs have in common? A hook, ie  
some device which gets you watching and keeps you watching. Our  
little production would need a hook, one that will convince the non- 
flying viewers that giving up 5, 10 or X minutes of their time  
watching 'glider jockeys' prepare to do battle with the elements  
and each other will be a good decision. Good storytelling is  
essential - the challenge is to figure out what parts of our story  
will lure viewers into the world of VNE, 10 kt climbs and worm- 
burning finishes. I'd suggest that a good story would contain some  
of the familiar (to bring the viewers in 'closer'), the exotic and  
the exciting. Folks like a good yarn, and with a bit of 'grey  
matter' applied, our set of yarns could be attractive to the  
inhabitants of the '2D' world (so to speak).


The classic ' Zulu Romeo: Good Start' ('74 World Comps, Waikerie,  
shot on good old-fashion acetate film) is one treatment of comp  
gliding; I would suggest that this sort of story would need to be  
modified to meet the 'tastes' of the larger contemporary TV viewing  
market. Sure, the 'pitch battles' and low saves would be retained,  
however there may be the need for more 'back-' and 'side-' stories,  
more to do with the frailties of of the 'human condition'. This  
could perhaps be standing by helplessly as someone drives over your  
wingtip or having a 'chance encounter' with the farmer's daughter/ 
son etc (c'mon - these are contemporary TV viewers...) after an  
outlanding (the latter particularly if we pitch the piece to SBS).  

Re: [Aus-soaring] BGA Stats

[Matthew Gage]

And for those wondering,

the Bronze is the same as the "C" here, and the cross country  
endorsement requires a 1 hour soaring flight, a 2 hour soaring  
flight, demonstrated ability to pick and at least approach into  
paddocks and demonstrated ability to plan a x/c flight and navigate  
without a GPS - this is required before deliberately flying out of  
range of the base airfield.

I actually think the hours quoted will be reasonably accurate as  
there are very few who fly outside of a regular operation, and the  
figures are calculated from club flight logs. The number of members  
is probably higher though as the BGA is funded by the clubs on a per  
member basis, and some clubs have been known to under quote the  
number of members to reduce this ! There is no direct membership of  
the BGA as we have of the GFA.




On 21/06/2007, at 12:56 , Adam Woolley wrote:

> G'day,
>
> Just read this in the Sailplane and Gliding Mag.  Obviously there  
> all close
> together in UK, and Aus is a massive country, but interesting stats  
> all the
> same...
>
> Full Flying members (adult): 7,372
> Full Flying members (junior): 781
> Full Flying members (women): 612
> Temporary members: 23,982
>
> Total Launches: 289,051
> Total Hours Flown: 137,724
>
> NewPilots, "A" Badge: 394
> NewPilots, Bronze Badge: 196
> NewPilots, Cross Country Endorsement: 180
>
> *in addition to this there is a further 1,557 members associated with
> civilian and service gliding clubs.
>
> I would also imagine that they haven't got everyones statistics, so  
> no doubt
> these hourly figures are even higher!
>
> WPP
> P.s. Would love too know how many km's were covered..
>
> _
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> guides.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] OLC

[Matthew Gage]

But you miss the point completely here Dave. This is NOT an  
imposition on the Narromine Members !

Narromine during cup week has about 2 members actually flying. The  
rest who are present are GIVING their time to ensure that all the  
visitors (60+ of them), who pay NOTHING to use the facilities have a  
good time.

What they are asking in return is that the visitors contribute  
something back that doesn't actually cost them anything except a bit  
of time.

People now know months before hand whet is expected of them. They can  
choose to go, or not if they don't like this.




On 04/07/2007, at 14:36 , Dave wrote:

> Hi all
>
> "a big loss to potential customers from overseas concerning my own  
> club
> (GCV) recently."
>
> There is no reason to force anyone to promote gliding(Via the OLC),
> especially when as stated such promotion is only to benefit commercial
> gliding club operations ability to attract overseas customers.(That  
> was the
> reason stated above wasn't it?)Representing this as promoting  
> gliding is
> disingenuous to say the least.
>
> I am happy to promote gliding in fact for many years I sat on the  
> WGC stand
> at the Royal show in SA lifting kids in and out of gliders. That is
> promoting gliding not acting as a publicity agent for commercial  
> purposes.
> See the difference? If any club wants to attract overseas visitor's  
> they
> should pay for their own advertising, not try and force their  
> members to do
> it for them. I think if such an unjust fine system was introduced I  
> for one
> would not pay. Hopefully sensible club management will reject such  
> a silly
> concept.
>
> How exactly will attracting overseas pilots help increase our local
> membership again? Answer: It wont.
>
> All things must pass and it may well be gliding is one of them,  
> particularly
> in its current form and ideas such as this will only hasten the rising
> dissatisfaction with many elements of the current system.
>
> By all means if you wish to be a part of the OLC, why should you be  
> allowed
> to fine others if they don't want to?
>
> So, let's see if you can find another spin to justify this eh?
>
> Regards
> Dave
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne
> Carter
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2007 11:55 AM
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] OLC
>
> Ahhh jeez, done it again!
>
> THIS is the OLC download information link
>
> http://www.gfa.org.au/Docs/sport/OLC_downloads.pdf
>
> sorry all
>
> Let me further explain my position and thinking.
>
> As a small business owner I know success of any business relies
> primarily on SALES.
> Gliding, as a sport and like all other sports nowadays must be run  
> as a
> business - those of you who cannot understand that simply never will,
> sorry, and those who do are probably business owners like myself.
> Think of any sport you enjoy for yourself or as an observer and  
> check it
> from a business perspective. All the big ones are big business, all  
> the
> little ones are basically, like ourselves in gliding, on the way out.
> As polarisingly simple and harsh as that sounds, it is.
>
> The problem is, we have been doing what we are currently doing and we
> are going downhill.
> The answer is, we have to change.
> Can I make it simpler than that?
>
> This is not personal, its a worldwide gliding fact and MUST be  
> addressed
> before we are all old pilots in old ships, no upcoming kids, no  
> faster,
> sleeker glass.
> Understand yet?
>
> We either take the bitter pill (c'mon, its a small "fine" towards our
> future) or we will get sick and die.
>
> The OLC  should NOT be viewed just as a competition, although that is
> its original probable intention.
> The OLC will be able to give us far, far more than just flight
> comparison and logging of data.
> It can be used as a sales tool -thats why all the bigger clubs and
> commercial operations are so well represented there.
>
> Honestly, if you were on final glide and the PDA showed impact  
> prior to
> the airstrip, would you sit there and wait or would you do something?
> Gliding, as a sport, is on final glide and we DONT have enough  
> altitude-
> thats my analogy.
>
> Hi to all,
>
>
> Wayne Carter
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Re: [Aus-soaring] 1.00 a/c reins

[Matthew Gage]

They are the Italian handicaps - i think that should be enough  
explanation.

But, I could say the same of some of the handicaps in use here !

As to the Astir - Are you confusing the Speed Astir ? This is  
definitely not the same as the Astir CS or 77 - it is a flapped  
machine similar in performance to an ASW20b.


On 13/07/2007, at 12:16 , Derek Ruddock wrote:

>
> The handicaps are peculiar. What are they based on?
> An Astir with a higher handicap that a cirrus or ASW19?
> A  Jantar the same as an Astir?
>
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:aus-soaring-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Woolley
>> Sent: Friday, 13 July 2007 11:27 AM
>> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] 1.00 a/c reins
>>
>> Perfect example why you would only take a Cirrus or another high
> performance
>> low handicap glider (1.00 - cirrus, LS1-f,ASW-19) to a club class
> worlds.
>> Have to work too hard in anything else!  An LS4 is at 1.06..
>>
>> http://www.aeccvv.it/Scoring/779_CI_Club2007.htm - 9 x 1.00  
>> gliders (8
> x
>> cirrus, 1 x asw19) in the top 10!
>>
>> Go Teams Australia!
>> WPP
>>
>> P.s. forget the world class, club class is almost already the one
> design
>> comp!
>>
>> *http://www.wgcrieti.it/Sabina-Glide/documents/Sporting_Code.pdf -
> handicaps
>> taken from here
>>
>> _
>> Advertisement: WIN new Jeep Compass & Off-Road Adventure with Trading
> Post!
>> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etradingpostcomp
>> etition%2Ecom%2Eau%2FOffRoadAdventure%2F%3Freferrer%3Dplace83&_t=76
>> 3756818&_r=hotmail_email_tagline_July07&_m=EXT
>>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] E: More competition results

[Matthew Gage]

Given that so many have the same time (13:50) and this is the latest  
start time listed - did they have a gate close time, and anyone after  
that scores as starting at that time ?


On 16/07/2007, at 13:37 , nandrews wrote:

> Good results for the Aussies! Did you see the start times for open?  
> Must
> have been a bit crowded with all those wings.
>
> Nig
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of  
> Catherine
> Conway
> Sent: Monday, 16 July 2007 1:05 PM
> To: Aus-Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] More competition results
>
> Congratulations also to the 18m guys flying at Lusse in Germany.
>
> Graham Parker was second and David Jansen was third on day 1
>
> Link is http://www.wgc2008.org/
>
> -Cath
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: DG Flugzeugbau - Newsletter No. 107

[Matthew Gage]

Probably in the opposite way to turning right !


The draw bar is fixed relative to the fin, but not the dolly wheel,  
so there is no chance of it hitting the fin unless something breaks.

On 31/08/2007, at 10:05 , Graeme Thompson wrote:

> Tom,
> #5 is interesting , BUT, how does the tow vehicle turn to the left?
> Cheers
> Graeme
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Friedel Weber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Tom & Jane Gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:40 PM
>> Subject: DG Flugzeugbau - Newsletter No. 107
>>
>>
>> DG Flugzeugbau - Newsletter No. 107
>> September 2007
>>
>> Welcome to the latest issue of our Newsletters
>>
>> Index:
>>
>> 1.  LS10 in a Contest
>> 2.  TN 301-24: DG-100 - Increase of Service Time
>> 3.  NOAH-System in AOPA-Pilot Magazine
>> 4.  Manuals available for the Mikuni-Carburetor and for the NOAH- 
>> System
>> 5.  A well-designed Tow Bar for the DG-1000 made by COBRA
>> 6.  Photo of the Month:  DG-1000 Special
>>and an additional photo:
>>"unusual Friends"
>>
>>
>> 1.  LS10 in a Contest
>>
>> A Report of Mathias Schunk, written after the German Nationals
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/ls10-im-wettbewerb-e.html
>>
>>
>> 2.  TN 301-24: DG-100 - Increase of Service Time
>>
>> Now all DG single seaters are certified for 12.000 hours.
>>
>> http://www.weberdata.de/~techdg/TN-DG/dg-100/dg-100/301-24/
>>
>>
>> 3.  NOAH-System in AOPA-Pilot Magazine
>>
>> An article with the wrong company name.
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/noah-e.html#AOPA
>>
>>
>> 4.  Manuals available for the Mikuni-Carburetor and for the NOAH- 
>> System
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/handbuecher-e.html
>>
>>
>> 5.  A well-designed Tow Bar for the DG-1000 made by COBRA
>>
>> The tail of the DG-1000 is quite heavy. With this device it is no
>> problem any longer.
>>
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/dg1000-schulflugzeug- 
>> e.html#Schleppstange
>>
>>
>> 6.  Photo of the Month:  DG-1000 Special
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/foto-des-monats-e.html
>>
>>
>>and an additional photo:  "Unusual Friends"
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/Data/dg-808-seltene-gesellschaft.jpg
>>
>>
>> I wish you safe and beautiful flights
>>
>> Your DG- and LS-Team  - Friedel Weber
>>
>> ---
>>
>>
>> Technical Notes for our Gliders:
>>
>> They are published exclusively in our web-site:
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/tech-mitteilungen-e.html
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Used Aircraft Market:
>> This is a free-of-charge service given by DG
>> to help you to buy and sell your used gliders:
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/used-aircraft.html
>>
>> ---
>>
>> The newsletter will be sent to all our customers with e-mail
>> addresses, to discussion groups like r.a.s, as well as
>> to all pilots who would like it.
>>
>> If you are not yet on our mailing list and want to read our
>> newsletter, please feel free to write a short message
>> to us with the key-word:
>> "Newsletters, please" in the subject-line.
>>
>> If you do not want to receive our newsletter anymore, please
>> send a short message with the keyword:
>> "No Newsletters" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> Please also tell us, if your e-mail address has changed.
>>
>> The German Version is under:
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/newsletter-d.html
>>
>> The previous Newsletters can be seen at:
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/newsletter-e.html
>>
>> If you want to receive the Newsletter in German,
>> please send us an e-mail with the key word: "Newsletter please!".
>>
>> This newsletter has helped us to grow to a real "DG/LS-Family"!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Always happy landings
>>
>> Friedel Weber
>> - Geschaeftsfuehrer/Managing Dir -
>>
>> 
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> DG Flugzeugbau GmbH, Bruchsal
>> Manufacturer of High-Performance Sailplanes
>> AG Mannheim HRB 231792
>>
>> http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de
>> http://www.ls-flugzeugbau.de
>>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Family Tow Car

[Matthew Gage]

Nah, it's to make pushing easier when it breaks down.


On 10/09/2007, at 13:21 , Dave wrote:

>
> WRX Comes with an ironing board mounted on the boot too. Rumour has  
> it that
> this type of spoiler is a substitute for having an "I am a wonker"  
> sticker
> on the bumper bar
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Family Tow Car

[Matthew Gage]

Interesting attitude. This is like saying because I drive a 1960s US  
8l V8 that gets about 25l/100k, I should pay less tax to make up for  
my expensive choice of car.

Europe has moved to a tax system based on emissions - the less fuel  
burnt, the fewer emissions in general, hence diesels score better.  
The result is the current crop of excellent diesels - BMW, Mercedes,  
VW/Audi, Citroen/Peugeot, Renault, Volvo and others all have diesels  
that are as powerful as similar capacity petrol engines, and use 30%  
less fuel to do the job.

Surely any responsible politician (ok they all fail here) should be  
promoting more efficient cars, not taxing them to make them as  
expensive to run as the worst.



On 11/09/2007, at 7:59 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Yes, but I doubt the NZ government had glider towing in mind when  
> they established diesel tax rates.  Using the fuel prices given  
> below, at 6L/100km (a figure more typical of a small to medium  
> diesel car on a trip) the costs work out the same.  $95.40 per  
> 1000km for both petrol and diesel.
>
> Nonetheless, on average your point has validity, and shows that in  
> NZ diesel vehicle owners are under-taxed relative to petrol.  One  
> of the political parties there has suggested significantly raising  
> diesel taxes to correct the situation.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Dennis Hipperson
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Family Tow Car
>
> Re: Fuel price in NZ.
>
> Current price of ULP in Auckland $1.59
> Current price of diesel in Auckland $1.09
>
> Consider a 1000Km trip with trailer. Fuel  useage based on Cathrine  
> Conways figures
> Petrol car 13lt 100Km = 130 lt = $206.7
> Diesel vehicle 13lt 100Km = 130lt = $141.7 + $30 = $171.7
>
> So Aus diesel is FULLY taxed and then some at source?
>
> Dennis
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Deal or No Deal, TV Advertising

[Matthew Gage]

On 29/11/2007, at 6:01 AM, DMcD wrote:
> There's no comparison guys! Soaring with eagles in a sailplane is  
> like watching it on TV compared with being out in the open. The only  
> similarity I can come up with involves the act of sexual congress  
> and rubber products and I am not going to sully this list with and  
> more explanation on that.
>

But to your TV watching public who are thinking of having a go, seeing  
an eagle from 3-4m from inside a closed cockpit, compared to only ever  
seeing them on TV is no comparison.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Soaring with eagles

[Matthew Gage]

On 29/11/2007, at 11:41 AM, Phil wrote:

On another note. Here in SA if you see an eagle it almost certainly  
is in the best thermal around and nearly impossible to outclimb  
them. I've flown at Kingaroy in QLD the last 2 Octobers for the  
nationals and found that more than 1/2 the eagles I saw there were  
thermalling in rubbish. There were often good thermals nearby and it  
was common to out thermal them. I'm not sure if that was because  
they were just young and inexperienced or old and recently moved to  
QLD to retire.




It's how the locals do well - the eagles know the local gliders and  
find the good stuff for them, whilst dragging the rest of us into  
rubbish and laughing when we follow.


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Climate change.

[Matthew Gage]

A slightly different perspective.

I will let the scientists argue this out until one side or the other  
shows they are right. I'm not qualified to try and decide for myself.


However, looking at the Titanic (bear with me !)

The engineers claimed the ship was unsinkable, so believing this, the  
company didn't bother with life boats for all, and could have been  
even more foolish and not insured against sinking (why bother, it  
can't happen).

Having been proven wrong, hindsight is fantastic - lets have more life  
boats and have insurance, oh and don't steam full speed in fog into a  
known active iceberg area - but completely useless. It's too late.


Back to climate change.

We can act as if nothing is happening, or we can act as if change is  
real. We do nothing, or we reduce the burn of fossil fuels dramatically.

We really need to look at the consequences of either side being wrong.

Acting as if nothing is happening means that IF the no change argument  
is lost (change is real), then it's too late to do anything (we sunk  
and didn't have a rescue plan).

Acting as if change is real means that IF the change argument is lost  
(change is not happening), then all we risk is spending more money  
than we might have coming up with alternative useable energy sources.  
But we would have had to do this eventually anyway !




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Climate change.

[Matthew Gage]

On 04/12/2007, at 11:23 AM, Mark Newton wrote:

>
> I get the feeling that most personal changes that normal people
> undertake
> to mitigate climate change are completely useless (does it really  
> matter
> in the end if you buy a car with 10% less emissions than a Commodore,
> or if you turn two extra lights off at night?  Probably not).  We only
> do the things that are cheap, easy, and sacrifice-free.
>

The same can be said of our country of 21m people - too small to make  
a difference. Problem is you need to start somewhere.

But driving a car getting 4.5l / 100km every day and driving 30,000 km  
a year, would give a saving of $4000 a year. My 2nd car is 2 years  
away from paying for itself in reduced fuel costs 

Now Europe has tried to "fix" people wanting thirsty cars - the tax on  
fuel is extreme - at least twice as expensive as here to fill up. That  
now makes my $4000 $8000. They then charge rego based on emissions -  
an extra $1000 a year for the commodore.

So in a situation where driving something like a commodore can be  
almost $10k a year more expensive in running costs, there is strong  
incentive.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition Rules and Legal Responsibilities

[Matthew Gage]

I was looking for words to say something similar - thanks Tim - The  
sport rules should be about ensuring fair competition. They should not  
duplicate or try to usurp the law - there is adequate policing of that  
from elsewhere.



Tim's comment about draconian laws is also spot on. Under the previous  
rules with zero points for any breach, 1 metre or 10km got the same  
penalty, organisers were very keen to "ignore" small breaches. This  
then became very subjective and produced some perverse results - Tim  
knows what I am talking about - and I believe this was part of the  
incentive to switch to the same rules as used in most of the rest of  
the world - they would have produced a far more equitable solution  
from a sporting perspective.




On 21/12/2007, at 9:42 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:

There has been a bit of chat in the last few days on the subject of  
competition rules, some of it implying that the rules and by  
extension competition organisers are less than conscientious about  
enforcing penalties for airspace violations.


As someone who has more than a little involvement with competition  
rules perhaps I could make a few clarifying comments:


Gliding competitions are run in public airspace, and competitors  
have no exemption from the law of the land, or the air.  The rules  
make that quite clear up front:


"These Rules do not change the responsibility of pilots to operate  
in accordance with the GFA Manual of Standard Procedures and all  
applicable laws and regulations.


Pilots are required to conduct themselves in a manner that will not  
bring disrepute on the organisers, the hosting club or the GFA."



This is in the Preamble to the rules, and so there is really no  
excuse for not understanding the intent.  Quite clearly, any breach  
of the law by a pilot can be detected and penalised by competent (I  
use that word in the sense of "duly authorised") authorities - CASA,  
the police, and the Operations arm of GFA all have the authority and  
responsibility to address any such breach.  As Mark Newton correctly  
pointed out, that is not a competition issue.  Any flight, in any  
aircraft, is subject to the same law and the same potential sanctions.


There is a second competition rule that is relevant, as well:

"20.6 Pilots will not incur penalties if they deviate from  
operational rules and directions of the Organisers in order to  
comply with their legal responsibilities as pilots, or to ensure the  
safety of themselves or others."


Once again making it quite clear that the rules are there only to  
regulate the game we play and can be overridden by operational  
requirements.


Competition rules exist to provide a safe, fair, and enjoyable  
competition among a group of pilots who are also operating within  
the law.  Where competition rules specify penalties, they do so in  
the interests of a level playing field, not to enforce the law.   
Where the two coincide (for example, weight penalties for exceeding  
MTOW and airspace violations) there is absolutely no doubt that it  
would be possible for penalties to be applied under competition  
rules AND for the pilot to be dealt with as pilot in command under  
the law or the GFA MOSP.  One does not preclude the other.


Some writers in recent days have confused this issue.  They seem to  
have assumed that the competition rules are the only sanction  
available, but of course they are not. The question of whether a  
particular penalty is competitively appropriate is quite different  
to a question of whether a breach of CASA regulations or the GFA  
MOSP has occurred.  Indeed, the standard of proof may be different  
in each case.  A data logger trace may or may not be admissible as  
evidence in a court of law - I have no idea about that but I rather  
doubt it - however it is quite sufficient for the enforcement of  
competition rules.  As a result it is quite possible that we are  
penalising pilots for airspace violations that are sufficiently  
small that CASA could not detect them, let alone prove them.  Don't  
imagine that the leniency is all one way.


A further observation is that draconian penalties simply don't work  
- there is ample evidence from society in general that the best  
punishment is the one that fits the crime.  We stopped hanging  
people for stealing handkerchiefs some time back because we noticed  
that it wasn't fixing the problem, and sending someone home for  
being a metre inside airspace is probably not going to work either.


The current competition rules specify airspace penalties which were  
lifted word-for-word from the World Comps rules.  Those who have  
experience of flying in Europe will know that airspace issues are  
vastly more complex than in much of Australia, that surveillance is  
much more stringent and that the reputation of gliding with  
regulatory authorities depends heavily on keeping noses clean.  I  
find it hard to imagine that we would benefit from being to

Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition Rules and Legal Responsibilities

[Matthew Gage]

Where I personally draw the line is where "competition airspace" is  
clearly deliberately infringed to try and gain an advantage. That is  
CHEATING, and that is what I want the sport rules to police.


A VCA is a VCA ONLY if it can be proven to be that by the appropriate  
court. They may well be able to prove absolutely from the admissible  
evidence that 1m was a breach, and fail to prove that what looked to  
be 10km was !


Where in the "Regs" does it state that a suspected VCA must result in  
disqualification from a gliding competition ? as this is the only  
possible exemption I can think would have been required for the  
actions taken.




As an aside,

A "competition airspace" breach is "proven" if the logger shows a  
point horizontally on the "bad" side of a line in the scorers airspace  
file (this is not supplied by CASA, or "approved" by them -  it is  
worked out by someone manually plotting points from a series of  
charts). Those with airspace ability in their instruments will get a  
copy of the scorers file !


Vertically, it needs a point to be too high (or too low) for the given  
position (corrected by a valid calibration chart when available) based  
on height difference to airfield reference height at the time of  
takeoff from a pressure transducer.


It is this recorded point that matters, NOT the "real" position, which  
is subject to both horizontal and vertical error. Horizontally, I have  
seen GPS 3km out with a poor signal and a failed satellite (still  
transmitting).


Vertically, loggers generally have a resolution of 10m. But, "true"  
height should be based on area QNH at the time, but we work from local  
QNH at time of takeoff in relation to field reference elevation. QNH  
can and does change, and the launch point may be at a different  
elevation to the reference elevation. The pressure used is generally  
cockpit pressure, not a real static source, again, increasing the  
probably error massively. Added to this again is the possible error  
from not having a calibration chart.





On 22/12/2007, at 3:17 PM, Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON wrote:


Ok  - so where do you draw the line?

A VCA is a VCA be it 1 metre or 10km; and who within the GFA has the  
delegations to

grant exemptions to the Regs?

SDF



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
] On Behalf Of Matthew Gage

Sent: Saturday, 22 December 2007 2:11 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Competition Rules and Legal  
Responsibilities


I was looking for words to say something similar - thanks Tim - The  
sport rules should be about ensuring fair competition. They should  
not duplicate or try to usurp the law - there is adequate policing  
of that from elsewhere.



Tim's comment about draconian laws is also spot on. Under the  
previous rules with zero points for any breach, 1 metre or 10km got  
the same penalty, organisers were very keen to "ignore" small  
breaches. This then became very subjective and produced some  
perverse results - Tim knows what I am talking about - and I believe  
this was part of the incentive to switch to the same rules as used  
in most of the rest of the world - they would have produced a far  
more equitable solution from a sporting perspective.




On 21/12/2007, at 9:42 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:


There has been a bit of chat in the last few days on the subject of  
competition rules, some of it implying that the rules and by  
extension competition organisers are less than conscientious about  
enforcing penalties for airspace violations.


As someone who has more than a little involvement with competition  
rules perhaps I could make a few clarifying comments:


Gliding competitions are run in public airspace, and competitors  
have no exemption from the law of the land, or the air.  The rules  
make that quite clear up front:
"These Rules do not change the responsibility of pilots to operate  
in accordance with the GFA Manual of Standard Procedures and all  
applicable laws and regulations.
Pilots are required to conduct themselves in a manner that will not  
bring disrepute on the organisers, the hosting club or the GFA."


This is in the Preamble to the rules, and so there is really no  
excuse for not understanding the intent.  Quite clearly, any breach  
of the law by a pilot can be detected and penalised by competent (I  
use that word in the sense of "duly authorised") authorities - CASA,  
the police, and the Operations arm of GFA all have the authority and  
responsibility to address any such breach.  As Mark Newton correctly  
pointed out, that is not a competition issue.  Any flight, in any  
aircraft, is subject to the same law and the same potential sanctions.


There is a second competition rule that is relevant, as well:
"20.6 Pilots will not incur penalties if they deviat

Re: [Aus-soaring] Doppler radar

[Matthew Gage]

I think this rule covers it (taken from current nationals rules):

31.6	The use of other forms of communication during flight, including  
but not limited to mobile phones, CB or HF radios, or any VHF  
frequency not allocated by the Organisers, is prohibited.



Policing is another mater !




On 10/01/2008, at 11:32 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote:


At 08:42 PM 5/01/2008, you wrote:

http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR66I.loop.shtml?looping=0&reloaded=0&topography=true&locations=true&range=true#skip


http://mirror.bom.gov.au/weather/radar/?looping=0&reloaded=0&topography=true&locations=true&range=true#skip

The Doppler radar at four sites is showing Doppler radar winds plus
some other cool stuff like roads etc.

Radar Viewer Tools
About The Enhanced Radar Viewer
The enhanced radar viewer has been developed as part of the Radar
Network and Doppler Services Upgrade Project (RNDSUP) and is now
available for all radars in the Bureau's network. The enhanced radar
viewer allows you to customise the radar map so that you can display
features that will help you in locating rainfall in relation to your
city or town, or in relation to other locations that you are  
interested in.


A menu of related links is located above the radar map to provide
easy access to:

Animated image loops
64 km views for Adelaide, Brisbane and Yarrawonga radars
128km and 256km views for all radars
Information about the radar site
Links to other radar locations
Support and background information about the radar images



Nice information.
Someone had better figure out whether accessing these and the normal
radar during a contest flight is permissible under the rules.
This is possible right now with your Next G phone and/or PDA. As is
having someone in "mission control" tracking your flight and doing
real time analysis of how well you are doing and displaying advice on
the comms device.

This sort of thing is common in serious motor racing. Might be an
idea to decide if that is the way gliding should go.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
  Int'l + 61 429 355784
email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Oxygen Systems

[Matthew Gage]

Been using the MH system for 18 months. I personally take off with  
canula on, and system set to activate from 5,000'. It uses next to  
nothing below 10,000', but it really makes a difference having that  
small puff - it drove home the effects of hypoxia for me, and showed  
that I am badly affected well below 10,000' !!! I am a non-smoker and  
reasonably fit (but a bit on the fat side).


Best of all is that by doing this, you don't have to think about it.  
You get what you need as you need it.


Advice I received after I imported mine was to get the EDS box shipped  
separately to the tank and regulator - value of each package is then  
below $900, so you avoid GST (but check how much this pushes up the  
delivery fee).




On 23/01/2008, at 9:25 AM, Derek Ruddock wrote:

I’ll second that. We have a couple in our club, a twin and a single  
set up, and they are a delight to install and use





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
] On Behalf Of Simon Hackett

Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2008 8:45 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Oxygen Systems

As in an oxygen system for its pilot? (or were you trying to  
resuscitate the airframe after a hard flight? :) )


I've found the Mountain High EDS system to be wonderful for me in  
multiple aircraft.


The system has the merit of using a pressure-reducing regulator  
direct on the bottle, meaning the entire rest of the system uses  
just simple, low pressure flexible plastic tubing instead of high  
pressure copper tubing.


The system is light, extremely portable due to the above, and has an  
amazingly long run time due to being a pulse demand system.


http://www.mhoxygen.com/

They sell direct to Australia and ship rapidly via FedEx - thats how  
I bought mine.


I also (from memory) recall Joe Luciani being a dealer for them in  
Australia, but I can't find evidence of a dealer listing on their  
web site so I'm not sure about that - perhaps others can confirm and/ 
or provide contact points for him.


Regards,
  Simon


On 22/01/2008, at 9:06 PM, Ashford wrote:


Looking for some oxygen for our Mosquito.  Can someone help me with  
a contact?


regards
John Ashford
07 3822 4264
0409679867


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.8/1236 - Release Date:  
21/01/2008 8:23 PM


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Re: [Aus-soaring] -ASG29 handicaps

[Matthew Gage]

They tried something very similar in sailing in the late 80's early  
90's - it was a very expensive failure for very similar reasons.

They also tried "multi-number" handicaps for different conditions -  
again this failed as unless you get a uniform day, they are even worse  
than what we have now as 60%+ of pilots will object to the conditions  
chosen for scoring !!



On 18/03/2008, at 10:43 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:

> Gary,
>
> Whether you disagree with the second point or not, the fact is that  
> at the time it was one reason given by pilots for disliking the  
> system.  They didn't come to this opinion before they tried it, and  
> you might be the same :)
>
> Believe me, it was adequately trialled!  You should have been at the  
> pilots meetings...
>
> In regard to resurrecting it, I'm afraid that the maths was  
> horrendous.  Murray Evans held a PhD in applied maths, I think.   
> Also, using SeeYou scoring it would be difficult or perhaps  
> impossible to program, because SeeYou expects a fixed handicap.  So  
> unless someone (not me) is prepared to write a scoring system from  
> scratch, then I think we can consign the idea to history.  Scoring  
> isn't a walk in the park anyway, and layering this type of thing on  
> top of it will not exactly help.
>
> Potentially, there are simpler approaches that might work - for  
> example, some form of handicap adjustment based on a fixed factor  
> like "Strong, Average or Weak" conditions, with each glider having  
> effectively three different handicaps.  Somehow you have to apply a  
> different handicap on each day.  Still hard to program, but a bit  
> easier than all the curve fitting maths.
>
> I think it is easier to have a 2 week comp to even things out.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] RE pawnee engine option

[Matthew Gage]

I frequently came across that logic in my last job. Would you be  
willing to spend $500k on software for an independently proven saving  
of $5m over 3 years - it is staggering how many companies aren't.


In this case, although the engine price would clearly be less for the  
LS1, this is a tiny part of the running costs over the 2000 hour life.  
Fuel is the biggest cost by far, and diesel has a proven 30-35%  
efficiency gain, so the savings get better as fuel prices rise.


Savings today in fuel costs over 2000 hours for a diesel should be  
about $70,000.
Saving is about $4,000 for every 10c rise in fuel prices, and I expect  
we will see prices rise another 25-50c this year.


Costs are at the stage that an engine manufacturer offering a free  
engine for using their fuel is an interesting idea !


However, the LS1 is a far better option than continuing with the  
Lycoming !




On 12/05/2008, at 11:47 , Michael Shirley wrote:


Hi Peter

It is unlikely to be cheaper to buy, or run, than an LS1 V8 -  
replacement

cost A$6,000.
Cheers
Michael

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2008 12:59 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] RE pawnee engine option

Centurion have a diesel/jet A engine available and EASA certified for
replacement in the Cessna 206. It is rated at upto 350 hp with some  
derate

for contnuous operations

I wonder what this would be like with a fixed pitch prop and  
retrofitted in

a pawnee. Business case would be interesting.

Peter Heath

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Re: [Aus-soaring] RE pawnee engine option

[Matthew Gage]

I think the argument went something like:

1. Oil is getting more expensive
2. We can make ethanol from corn, etc cheaper than we can refine  
gasoline from oil

3. Value of ethanol is higher than raw value of corm for food
4. lets produce lots of Ethanol and make a bigger profit than refining  
gasoline or growing corn for food

5. Producing food is someone else's problem !
6. Our financial responsibility is to our share holders
7. We don't have share holders anywhere we might have a negative effect
8. Those we might have a negative effect on won't but our ethanol - it  
costs too much


Argument ends.





On 12/05/2008, at 17:03 , Mark Newton wrote:


Can someone please remind me of the advantages of ethanol in fuel?
It strikes me that setting up competitive tension between the
world's fuel supply and the world's food supply seems like a bad
idea, but maybe the advantages outweigh the costs...?

 - mark

On 12/05/2008, at 3:55 PM, Don Ingram wrote:

A while back I got to listen to a spiel from a company looking at  
adding hydrous ethanol to diesel. Worked a treat and tests  
confirmed it on large mining equipment and trains. Never heard of  
since ;-)


The argument presented was that the worst place to add ethanol was  
in gasoline as it increased the surplus of gasoline on the market.


Apparently the chief determinant on crude oil  refining is the  
diesel market requirement, the amount of gasoline produced is  
driven by the amount of diesel required and as a result the  
gasoline is always in surplus. Hence you see gasoline discounted  
but never see diesel discounted. Sounded convincing at the time...




I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -



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Re: [Aus-soaring] diesel pricing

[Matthew Gage]

Given that 30-40% of the difference is due to refining costs - it does  
cost more to refine ultra-low sulphur diesel, and the tax is the same,  
60-70% of that price difference has got to be be profit. I expect as  
demand for diesel increases, the difference will reduce.


We pay about 9% more for diesel whereas it is about 7-8% in the UK  
(again with no tax difference), but demand is far higher.


I'll still choose the diesel to be much cheaper to run due to  
efficiency !!





On 13/05/2008, at 9:32 , John O'Neill wrote:

Perhaps because the Govt has to give an 18.4 cents per litre rebate  
on all heavy transport & off road users diesel.


John

---Original Message---

From: Catherine Conway
Date: 13/05/2008 9:08:03 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] diesel pricing

Can anyone explain why it is more expensive in Australia when it is  
a less refined product?


(actually yes I know the answer is taxes but why is the tax not  
consistent across all fuels?  Why do Diesel users pay more?)


-Cath



On 13/05/2008, at 7:59 AM, Wayne Carter wrote:

Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 00:57:03 +1000
From: "stuart smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] RE pawnee engine option
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response

Interestingly, I am in Singapore right now (isn't that where our  
price for Crude oil is set)  and I am looking at a Shell station  
with unleaded at SG$2.01 and diesel at SG$1.58.  In real terms the  
unleaded is about AUD$1.66 and diesel is AUD$1.30.


If only I could buy diesel at that price for my new turbo diesel  
that I got last week.


Stuart

Interesting indeed, Stuart!
The price of diesel in Melbourne, also in Auckland is around $1.58/  
litre

Melbourne ULP $1.36
Auckland ULP $$1.89

What is the go there?

Wayne Carter

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Catherine Conway,  |  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager Research & Development |  Web: http://www.internode.on.net/
and Rural Network Engineering  |  Web: http:// 
www.agile.com.au/

Internode/Agile|  Ph : +61  (0)8 8228 2999
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Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA motto

[Matthew Gage]

No, olde English would be CAA, which as everyone should know stands  
for Campaign Against Aviation - that well known british government  
funded organisation dedicated to keeping aircraft on the ground.


So CASA probably means Campaign Against (Safe / Sport / Serious /  
Sensible / Soaring) Aviation - I'm sure others can insert other  
suitable words...


If only we had such an accommodating authority that this was possible -

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=61FC&cmndfind.x=16&cmndfind.y=11


On 19/05/2008, at 20:47 , simon holding wrote:


CAFA is an olde English spelling

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
] On Behalf Of JR

Sent: Monday, 19 May 2008 5:31 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA motto

wouldnt that be CAFA ?
- Original Message -
From: D S Baker
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA motto

Nah, CASA stands for C*(** And Flying A***holes

*Waits to get kicked*

Dion
2008/5/19 Jim Staniforth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
  I see that CASA is using the same motto as the Failed Airman's  
Association in the United States. First heard that motto from an FAA  
pilot examiner - who had the unusual quality of being a real pilot.
  So, what does CASA mean? Committee to Actively Stifle Aviation?  
There must be hundreds...

Jim


David Lawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

"Were not happy till your not happy!" )-:



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--
 you know what i hate
 errors that wont go away
 So you dislike children too
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

[Matthew Gage]

Well the organisers of a particular comp could just comply with pilots  
wishes by setting the maximum start height at the base of airspace -  
which is exactly what the kiwis did for their nationals this year. At  
most sites, we aren't going to get there ever !


And Ross, Jim was referring to the Club Class pilots meeting where the  
same person raised the same proposal and did not gain support at all  
for it.


How does the NCC deal with this when looking at rules ? 1 group  
wanting a change, the other definitely not wanting it.



On 31/05/2008, at 16:30 , Mark Rowe wrote:


I have to say that was my recollection also.

Cheers
Mark

> Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:04:30 +1000
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures
>
> Ross McLean wrote:
> >
> > 3. *Height and Speed Restriction at Start Point:*
> >
> > David Jansen proposed a maximum starting height and speed for all
> > National Competitions. This system was encountered by David &  
Graham
> > Parker at the 2007 18m Pre-Worlds and removes the potential for  
early
> > launched pilots to gain an unfair height/speed advantage over  
later

> > launched pilots. Tim Shirley advised that SeeYou is capable of
> > scoring such a system.
> >
> > *Paul Mander moved that the NCC investigate the best way to  
implement

> > this in Australian National Competitions.*
> >
> > * *
> >
> > *Vote:*
> >
> > *Motion passed in the majority.*
> >
> >
> >
> > The NCC has done as requested and is currently in the process of
> > gaining consensus on the proposed rule.
> >
> I was at that meeting and I supported the motion. Unfortunately,  
what I
> understood by "investigate the best way to implement this" is not  
the

> way it has been interpreted.
>
> There was considerable discussion of this motion, pro and ante,  
and it
> was clear there were a number of issues that had to be thought  
through
> if a workable rule was to be achieved. Accordingly, I was quite  
happy
> with the wording of the motion as "investigate..." to me clearly  
implied
> that the NCC would come back to pilots with options and/or a  
recommendation.

>
> I most assuredly did not expect the rules to be changed without a
> further chance to comment.
>
> I may be alone in viewing the motion in this light, but I suspect  
I am not.

>
> --
> Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
>
>
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at CarPoint.com.au It's simple! Sell your car for just $30  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info-Lasham demo

[Matthew Gage]

But the retrieve winch used in the video isn't ?


On 10/06/2008, at 18:35 , Dennis Hipperson wrote:

One reason I can think of is if the winch is at the glider end of  
the runway it is an obstacle to landing aircraft.


Dennis

Nigel Andrews wrote:


AH, O.K I thought it was all at one end - so what's stopping you  
from using

the pulley system at the end with the winch at the glider?



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of  
Dennis

Hipperson
Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2008 4:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to  
Soaring

in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info-Lasham demo

That is of course the retrieve winch , not the launch winch.

Dennis

Nigel Andrews wrote:


An example of winch at the glider end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlAMPb_IqaM


Nig



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of  
Greg



Wilson


Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2008 12:35 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info

I had quite a few inquiries about the auto-tow system
(it's sold) so I thought I'd put the info for the
yahoo pulley launching group here. There is some good
info on pulley launching for anyone considering this.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pulleylaunch/

If you'd like to talk to someone local who's using it
Boonah club in Qld have built and used an auto-tow.

Cheers,

Greg.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Forward slips?

[Matthew Gage]

On 13/06/2008, at 17:55 , Mike Borgelt wrote:


At 04:04 PM 13/06/2008, you wrote:



>
> Practising sideslips can be a good idea in case one's airbrakes are
> jammed for whatever reason.  There are many anecdotes of people
> forgetting to remove the tape from airbrakes after leaving them  
taped up

> overnight...


So we forget to do a proper daily inspection AND don't do a proper  
control check before takeoff for this to happen. We don't fly in  
cloud so icing is unlikely. Seems nothing has been learned since the  
Libelle accident back in about 1979 in WA.




So explain the incident I am aware of when a DG500 flew through a  
shower shortly before contacting wave, airbrakes froze up and couldn't  
be opened.


Fortunately, after a well judged sideslip, the flexing in the wings on  
landing cracked the ice and they were able to use the wheel brake on  
what was quite a short strip after the inevitable long float before  
landing. Ok, this was in Scotland, but I can see the same situation as  
possible at a number of sites here.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Gell Cell Battery alternatives?

[Matthew Gage]

You can also look at the 18Ah batteries - yes they are heavier than 2  
x 7Ah, but this is 18Ah at 900ma, rather than 2 lots of 7Ah at 350ma -  
this means that even with the full load that Mike indicates (I am  
drawing about 950ma), I will very rarely if ever go below 50% - I was  
killing a 7Ah battery in just over 3 hours before !


So I have 1 of these only, with a weight gain of about 1.5kg, but  
never had an issue since


I'm lucky in that I could modify the battery bay easily to take this.


On 29/06/2008, at 12:28 , Mike Borgelt wrote:


Wayne,

There would have to be some driver to cause you to use other than  
the gel cell type batteries which are cheap and easily available and  
very easy to charge. I endorse Roger's comments and have found  
Panasonic brand to be best over the years.


As I see it the drivers might be
- reduce mass of battery for same capacity. If you normally fly with  
2 x 7 A - h gel cells the gain is likely to be 2Kg at best.

- increase capacity of battery without adding too much mass.

The second reason might be more relevant nowadays. One local contest  
pilot measured the current draw with everything running and got to 1  
amp continuous. That was before the audio amp in the radio drew any  
extra with incoming messages and no transmit. Backlights on screens  
draw heaps.


Once you run your gel cell at more than 50% discharge the cycle life  
is considerably shortened, so when calculating how long you can fly  
with all loads on take this into account. Don't forget also to  
account for reduced capacity when the battery gets old or cold.



Here's a nice battery for those in that position www.fireflyenergy.com

Doesn't quite match up to the claims for the technology which does  
seem to be a problem.



All sorts of claims are made for exotic battery tech which are  
considerably downgraded by the time you are talking practical  
batteries. The model aircraft folk run Li-Po in foil containers  
which are quite good but somewhat fragile and they have been known  
to catch fire. They also need careful handling with charging,  
prevention of short circuits, running too low etc etc.


Here is a site with some safe lithium cells www.lifebatt.com.au .  
You can get 12 volts 10 A - h for about the same mass as a usual 7 A  
-h gel cell but at nearly 10 times the price.


Take a look at www.A123systems.com also. The Lifebatts you can buy  
now, only demo quantities of the A123 cells for now unless you are a  
large OEM. They are shortly doing drop in replacements for aircraft  
batteries. The battery in your Lear Jet might save enough to justify  
the cost, although if you own a Lear maybe cost doesn't matter much.


Mike



At 04:45 PM 28/06/2008, you wrote:
In recent years, there have been regular ongoing improvements in  
Lithium Ion
battery technology, driven by the mobile communication, mobile  
computing &
mobile tool markets. As a result, do any of you have experience  
with battery
types other than the ubiquitous "gell cell" for use in our  
sailplanes?


I have a lot of experience with NiCd and Nimh chemistries and some
experience with Lithium Polymer (LiPo) chemistry, all in reasonably  
harsh
situations (operating environment, high charge & discharge rates,  
physical
abuse, etc) - The current generation LiPo's are certainly far more  
tolerant
of mishandling than what they were even 2 years ago. However, I  
don't know

of anybody that has used any of these alternative chemistries in any
sailplane battery applications. Anybody out there tried any different
battery types?

Alternatively, are any of you able to recommend specific  
manufacturer(s) or

brands of Gell Cell based on proven performance in our operating
environment.

Many thanks,

Wayne Hadkins
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
0427 910 511




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cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
 Int'l + 61 429 355784
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Independent operator requirements

[Matthew Gage]

On 09/09/2008, at 20:18 , Tim Shirley wrote:


Hi Jeff,

Writing something on P55 of the instructors manual (or even P54)  
makes it neither less silly nor more safe.  I'm still smiling :)


This is not for me a question of what happens in basic training.

The fundamental problem is the idea in the minds of some instructors  
that it is necessary to put a pilot "under pressure" (which really  
means "at risk") in order to check them.  Unfortunately, the more  
experienced a pilot is, the more risk has to be applied in order to  
put them "under pressure", and this risk can easily escalate to the  
point where the instructor is less able to cope than the pilot being  
checked.  That was the exact situation that I have found myself in  
twice now - a checking instructor thinking "oh, a nationals pilot,  
I'll show him..." and then doing something totally stupid. One of  
them had the good grace to apologise - I don't think the other knows  
to this day how close he came to dying.


The vast majority of instructors, of course, do not behave this way  
- they are smarter than that - but I wonder if this issue is ever  
considered during instructor training?




It certainly was covered repeatedly during my training - both in the  
UK and here. It was drummed in very hard to take control well before  
the situation reached my perceived limit of ability to recover (I need  
reaction time) and NEVER to do something without permitting the  
student / other pilot time to stuff it up without breaking the above  
rule 


Having been too close to 2 major accidents in the last 2 years than I  
would ever want to be, the cause of both essentially being stupidity,  
I have lost sympathy for the argument of letting people kill  
themselves if they want to - there are too many others who have to  
deal with the results




Cheers

Tim


Jeff Woodward wrote:


Tim,
I didn't mean to amuse youthis is a very serious issue.My  
reference to P 55 of the instructors' manual was merely to point  
out that simulated cable breaks are a compulsory part of the GFA  
pre and post solo training programme-which some pilots seem to  
be doubtful about.
As a level 3 instructor at our club, I am obligated to make  
THINKING adherence to the manual throughout our training programme.

Cheers, Jeff.

--- On Mon, 8/9/08, Tim Shirley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Tim Shirley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Independent operator requirements
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >

Received: Monday, 8 September, 2008, 3:17 PM

Hi all,

I don't always agree with Mike Borgelt in this forum, but this time  
he's spot on :)


The original point was raised in the context of annual flight  
checks, rather than as a question of basic training.


Clearly there is a need for basic training in this emergency  
procedure.  However, in aerotow situations it seems often to be  
overdone.  After 35 years of gliding I have over 2000 aerotow  
launches in my logbook and 20 launch failures.  18 of these (and  
both of the ones that nearly killed two people) were the result of  
a deliberate action by an instructor.  The two dangerous ones were  
not recovered by the instructor, but by me since otherwise I was  
going to die first :).  I would be surprised if I am lucky or  
unusual.


Pulling the plug during a checkride with any experienced pilot in a  
modern 2-seater at anything above 300ft is going to result in a  
sigh from the front followed by a low but otherwise normal circuit.  
No training or checking value there.  Anything in the 100-200ft  
range, and the emergency is genuine regardless of the cause of the  
rope disconnect.  Stuff it up from there and you both die.


The most common low-level hazard I face today is arriving back from  
a cross-country or competition flight to discover the airfield  
littered with assorted gliders and 4 wheel drives proceeding at  
random in pursuit of them.  Funnily enough I can't find any mention  
of this hazard in the instructor manual.  Thank goodness for coaches.


Think about it the next time you reach for the yellow handle.  Are  
you really performing a test, or just wishing to be able to say  
FIGJAM afterwards?  Are you creating more danger than you are  
trying to diminish?


I was particularly amused by whoever it was said "we do it because  
its in the instructors manual".  Of course that makes it 100% safe  
automatically, I suppose.


Cheers

Tim

McLean Richard wrote:


I don't see why. The instructor is obviously fully prepared &  
monitoring the P1's performance closely so they can intervene if  
necessary. If done in a controlled manner it hardly has the same  
risk as a 'real' emergency, and it's a bloody good way of ensuring  
people really do know what they are doing. Certainly not the  
actions of a lunatic Mike - I find that statement just a tad  
ridiculous.


Cheers,

Richard

--- On Sun, 7/9/08, Tim Shirley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



F

Re: [Aus-soaring] Low level releases, ridge flying and instructing.

[Matthew Gage]

Nah,

He either saw it done or heard it in the evening after it happened  
(all except the launch failure - it was done following a low speed  
beat up) - I know Jim was either on the field or would have been by  
evening - I did watch the stunt, waiting for for the inevitable carbon  
matchsticks to appear. Somehow, he got away with it.





On 13/09/2008, at 19:12 , Gary Stevenson wrote:


Hi Jim.
There is no doubt that your talents are totally wasted in radiology.  
You should be writing scripts for Hollywood, or maybe Bollywood!

See you soon.
Gary

- Original Message -
From: james crowhurst
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Low level releases, ridge flying and  
instructing.


On the other hand, the check ride scenario could go like  
this.The rope breaks...immediately pull the  
nose up, stall, kick full rudder, allow the glider to turn 180 deg.  
in a spin, opposite rudder, stick forward to recover and the glider  
should now be pointing vertically down toward the ground. Build up  
speed, pull through and level out on the runway centre line at 2  
feet above the ground, now going in the opposite direction to launch.
Now give the CFI the finger as you go past the pie cart for telling  
the level 2 (who is now silent and shaking in the back) to bung you  
off at 500ft, wasting a perfectly good launch on a good soaring day.  
Then pull up at the end of the runway, chandel turn at the top, open  
the brakes and land. Perfectly acceptble.


My 2 cents

JIm


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:15:48 +
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Low level releases, ridge flying and  
instructing.


HI all,

This thread has made me think of my aerotow rope break training. I  
was a releatively inexperienced pilot at the time, just solo if I  
recall.


But I hadn't done a real low level  cable break. I asked the  
instructor of the day and he gave me a through briefing.


Luckily the day had only a gentle  breeze.. We started at 400' for  
the first one, and the L2 demonstrated, then I did one myslef.


The method was very simple. As soon as the rope broke, the  
instructor said 60 kt, nose down he kept repeating that every 10  
seconds till we landed. After a brief assesment the glider was  
banked to about 55 degrees, the runway ahead surveyed for obstacles  
when the turn was  completed.


Of course from 400ft a heap of airbrake was needed. Next came 300ft,  
then 200ft some airbrake was still required.
Of course at the end of the ground run aileron response went quite  
early due to the 5-10kt breeze. I actually enjoyed the experience.


Doesn't everyone do that at some stage?   Later, a highly modified  
circuit became an option from 400ft.(After flying at a winch club (-:)


Frankly it seems to me  people need to have some intestinal  
fortitude and do this exercise properly, My son Ray trained at the  
same time as young Dion who has posted on his training recently
they both did multiple low level 180 degree turns after simulated  
rope breaks. not once did the resulting landing appear dangerous. I  
remember one day when Ray was near solo the instructor wandered over  
just before takeoff and said "Dont push any gliders onto the flight  
line after we take off' being an opporunist I shot out the back of  
the pie cart and said to the CFI, who hadnt heard the comment "Bet  
ya $10 instructor X will pull the bung on him. He looked at me and  
grinned and said "No way, he's (X) a  bastard, he probably will" And  
he did. Damn, thought I was onto an easy $10


Another advantage of having some winch training came not so long ago  
when a tug pilot forgot to turn the fuel on. Just as the glider was  
about to leave the ground, the aceeleration vanished, tug "coughed  
and spluttered" and the rope went slack. To my later amazement I   
pulled the release very quickly, and watched the tug complete a  
circuit. It was drummed into me during the winch training thet any  
loss of power/acceration at this point meant it was wise to release.  
I dont think I would have performed as well in that situation had I  
not had that training.


I really believe that we do not spend enough time training pilots  
close to the ground and obstacles. This is where ridge flying would  
really improve one's flying.
We so rarely get the normal cues to the speed we are travelling,  
vsual ones whislt in the air. There is only the noise, ASI and the  
very slowly moving landscape below.
At Waikerie we have regular visits form power trainess from the  
College of knowledge, in Tobagos. I have noticed they do a LOT of  
touch and goes and this
gives more experience with the visual ground rush. In the current  
training scheme, n aerotow only operation, one would be lucky to  
have spent half an hour below flying 200t by the time you got to 20  
hours. Trainees at winch clubs generall

Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA

[Matthew Gage]

Not surprised - when compared to the cost of a joy flight in a cessna,  
or a balloon flight, most clubs AEF rates are way way too cheap - even  
if only for a 10 minute flight. For most people after a joy flight, 10  
mins is actually enough and the "shock" of a winch launch really will  
mean that 10 mins is enough for almost all !


Someone looking for an exciting different thing to try will compare  
the costs and if a glider flight is 1/2 the cost of a balloon flight,  
then it must be 1/2 the fun, so they will do the balloon flight !


Those complaining loudly should investigate the alternatives carefully  
first - I expect they will be even less pleasant ! My minimum  
expenditure to operate outside of the GFA is much higher than than  
that of operating within.




On 16/10/2008, at 12:17 , D S Baker wrote:

Bit fo a side note, I remember hearing of a club who were getting  
too many AEF's, and so put up the price, and instead of getting less  
AEFs, they ended up getting more =S


2008/10/16 Kevin McGowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Lets get real here, it is a well known fact, and stated on this  
forum many times previously that AEF's result in few new members to  
gliding, in fact often they just clog up the day but we do them in  
the hope that maybe this one will join.


At my club we have a fairly simple way of charging for these  
flights, work out what it will cost "worst case" for the launch, add  
the cost of the glider, add a bit for the fudge factor, add a bit  
for profit, then add the GFA fee whether it be $1 or $20.


Any club that says that the $20 GFA fee is taken from the club needs  
to look at its administration as they are not doing their job  
properly as an AEF should not cost the members but should profit  
them. Most people who take an  AEF do so for the experience only and  
will pay whatever is asked, I  have seen flights charged at $150 and  
the club is still kept busy doing flights.


K




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:02:40 +1000
Subject: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA




AEF's are a main source of revenue for some clubs in both dollars  
and attracting new members.  This is a blatant grab for club dollars  
by GFA, taking revenue straight out of the clubs.



In small clubs the cost of operating will most likely be in the red  
and are being propped up by donations from members (buying fuel for  
winch, food for fund raising BQ, etc out of their own pocket).  Now  
their revenue is cut more even more.  I thought that GFA was here to  
support it's members and encourage gliding, not to make a profit out  
of our sport.



In today's economy every organisation has to reduce cost, yes even  
GFA, if we are to survive.



So what is going to happen in the future?  Fees are going up,  
therefore membership will decline, cost per member will go up, thus  
fees go up, more members leave and the vicious circle has begun.



The answer is to keep reducing costs per member to attract growth  
this is simple business logic.



Don't get me wrong, I think that GFA staff and board members are  
helpful and doing a job which many of us could not do (or would not  
do).  And a lot of it at their cost.



But we still need turn around spending by GFA.  The answer is  
definitely not to keep slugging the members and clubs.



Barry Kruyssen



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 you know what i hate
 errors that wont go away
 So you dislike children too
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Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF Charges - $20 to GFA

[Matthew Gage]

Terry,

no idea on the break down, and frankly I don't care.

I know that there is a proportion of insurance to cover me as an  
instructor against a personal claim from the passenger (or their  
estate if I do a good enough job of messing up). This is insurance  
that a) I doubt I could actually get except through a group scheme  
like this, and b) even if I could would be more than $20 per flight.


I am reliably informed that the insurance that the GFA has is NOT  
available to any other group - and they have tried, and is only  
available to the GFA because it is continued - if stopped, it would  
never be available again.


My professional indemnity insurance for a low risk business with  
potential liability way below that required as an instructor would  
work out at about $75 per flight based on the number of instructing  
flights I do.


The alternative that the GFA would have used would have been to raise  
the membership costs for everyone, or increase the form 2 costs, or  
something else. This is the only cost that doesn't actually have a  
direct cost on all of us, unless a club is stupid enough not to pass  
this cost on.




On 16/10/2008, at 13:56 , Terry Neumann wrote:

One point is unclear to this GFA bottom feeder, possibly to others  
too.  Robert, or anyone else in the current GFA machine, can you  
enlighten us please?
Does this $20 contain any sort of insurance recovery component, or  
is it simply what some people are seeing here - straight fee/tax by  
GFA on each passenger /AEF flight with no discernible benefit or  
service to the aircraft operator/club itself additional to that  
which it already pays in keeping the aircraft in the GFA system?

Can we have a breakdown please when you have a moment or five?

Regards,
Terry
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story

[Matthew Gage]

I don't think there is anything wrong with either group - it just  
helps to know which someone is in so the training and experience is  
tailored for what they are after !


The best way of getting people for the long term is 1st making sure  
they know what is in store for them - having someone get through 15  
flights and quit because the time commitment is too much is pointless  
and causes bad publicity by word of mouth - better for them not to  
start than have this happen. Smart companies turn down business that  
is not good for them even when desperate for income !


2nd is to make sure that people always have a clear progression path  
visible with sensible goals that they aspire to - I know progress is  
being made on this, but it take a long time to re-educate the rest of  
us to promote this !!!




On 16/10/2008, at 22:30 , McLean Richard wrote:


Hi Michael

I think these 2 comments of yours are spot on:

The other group of people to target are those who have been
more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in
the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion
and interest.

The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is
seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those
who want to do it and move on as they they tick the
"been there and done that" box.

Does any one have any fresh constructive ideas for how best to do  
either of these? Just fishing for new ideas/ammunition for old ideas.


Cheers,

Richard


--- On Thu, 16/10/08, Texler, Michael  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



From: Texler, Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own  
recriutment, retention story
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >

Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 3:51 PM

In my experience, long-term members are people who

always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could
do it as accessibly as gliding.  Kids, sailors and
motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented.

I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the
local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other
represented group.

The other group of people to target are those who have been
more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in
the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion
and interest.

It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air
Training Corp Cadets.

My own experience:
I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA
T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight).
As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and
doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio
controlled stuff.
(i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly)

Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he
thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my
Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about
the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth)

So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the
Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to
joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to
power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying
was better than no flying.

My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch
launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day.
I was hooked.

So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your
opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21
years later.

Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness
in the family has tempered my participation over the last
couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I
anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my
kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years
old) and health problems settle.

The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is
seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those
who want to do it and move on as they they tick the
"been there and done that" box.




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 61, Issue 47

[Matthew Gage]

Not forgetting the only way to make flying completely safe is to ban  
it completely



Training that doesn't demonstrate how to avoid and if all else fails  
to recover from situations that kill many would be lacking. The idea  
being that the instructor through greater experience will prevent the  
situation getting beyond them and react in more than enough time.


Should an instructor fail to do so does not mean the system is broken,  
but that the particular instructor pushed their own abilities too far.


During my training the thing that was drummed home more than anything  
else was to act to take control long before a situation was getting  
away from me.


btw: I have lost many more friends through sailing than I have through  
gliding (note I say friends as effectively removes the numbers  
participating from the comparison) .



On 23/10/2008, at 11:19 , Mark Newton wrote:



On 23/10/2008, at 10:16 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote:


So why are they seen so frequently in the accidents?


Might it be because they're a self-selected population of people who  
fly

more often, and hence expose themselves to risks more often?

It likely isn't that what they are teaching is wrong but that the  
teaching is ineffective or incomplete.


Entirely possible, Mike.  But how does switching to a different
administrative system help?  And do you think that the CASA syllabus
is "effective" and "complete"?

It must have some gaps in it, otherwise light twins wouldn't do
wheels-ups on the main runway at Adelaide International;  and B737
drivers wouldn't file a couple of incident reports per year about
go-arounds after accidentally lining up for final approach on Anzac
Highway.

What would you do to make it "effective" and "complete" other than
switch it to a different administrative system?

 - mark



I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -



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Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM for winpilot

[Matthew Gage]

Pin 3 (next to the 2 +ve power pins) gives NMEA output which is what  
you need. I've not tested with v10 yet though, but have run Winpilot  
from the flarm for a couple of years.


Matt



On 13/02/2009, at 22:10 , james crowhurst wrote:


Anyone,
I have recently updated to winpilot v10 and have now decided to hook  
up my PDA to the FLARM instead of the volkslogger as the gps data  
source. This will give me the talking lady and flarm 'fixes' on the  
map screen of the PDA.
Using the standard 'ozflarm' can someone tell me which of the wires  
to use as 'data out' when I plug in a LAN type cable to the 2nd port  
of the ozflarm. Also, is there any set up to be done with the  
ozflarm regarding the appropriate output for winpilot.


IN short, has anyone hooked up ozflarm to winpilot to give them the  
FLARM functions, and if so how.


Jim

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Making retrieves easier??

[Matthew Gage]

Until this takes you the other side of a river with no crossing for  
50k just because the glider was closer to that road than the one you  
needed to be on !



Best is to use Google Maps before you go and use the satellite view to  
find access, etc - every site I have flown from the last 3 years has  
had broadband.




On 08/03/2009, at 20:13 , Stuart & Kerri Ferguson wrote:


Adam,
   A lot easier to give your crew the Lat/Long they enter it  
into your cars GPS Navigator (you may need to
provide help desk like instructions) hit the Go To button and the  
friendly lady inside provides them with directions

– works for me J

SDF
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
] On Behalf Of Adam Woolley

Sent: Sunday, 8 March 2009 10:06 AM
To: aus soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Making retrieves easier??


G'day All,

Just came accross this book @ a Benalla servo: RACV Vicroads Country  
Street Directory of Victoria.  So I'm guessing that there is a  
simular publication for the remaining states.


http://www.mapsdownunder.com.au/cgi-bin/mapshop/RACVIC7.html

The opening page is a grid reference of the entire state.  What the  
Brits do is have one of these books in the cockpit of the glider,  
and another identical (important!) book in the trailer or with your  
designated crew.  Simply ask the farmer to point on the map where  
you are, then relay the page number and grid reference to your crew  
and let them sort out how they're going to get to you!


The advantage the Brits had was that they have their whole country  
in one book!  So you may need to (depending on where you live/fly at  
the time) carry two books.



Just an idea,
WPP
Get what you want at ebay. View photos of singles in your area
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Vintage Sailplane Video

[Matthew Gage]

File converted to MP4 (using H.264 video and AAC audio encoding) - 
http://www.4shared.com/file/111682609/98321b38/Vintage_Gliding_Video.html

There may still be problems as I can't get this to convert to AVI  
format from either the original or the MP4, but at least internally,  
it is a single clip using very common encoding.


And I'll repeat - get a MAC ! In 3 years I estimate it has saved me 15  
weeks of re-installing windows and software - the 2-3 weeks it took to  
get used to it has been worth it !


Matt



On 14/06/2009, at 12:17 , Derek Ruddock wrote:


As I said, works a treat in my Vista PC...

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
] On Behalf Of Graham Watts

Sent: Sunday, 14 June 2009 10:40 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Vintage Sailplane Video

QuickTime 'movie inspector' indicates that the format is WMV2/WMA2..  
Maybe this is an old format not

now supported by windoze?


John Parncutt wrote:
Its stopped raining in Melbourne now so don't need a Mac any more :-)

Cheers

JP



Phone:  0418 966 087
Fax:   03 9885 1320
Email:jparn...@bigpond.net.au


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of  
Catherine

Conway
Sent: Saturday, 13 June 2009 11:40 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Vintage Sailplane Video

Get a Mac (sorry couldn't resist)

-Cath

On 13/06/2009, at 6:12 PM, John Parncutt wrote:


Can't get it to play on my windows PC (Vista) either with Quick time
or
windows media player, anybody got any idea's?

John Parncutt


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Re: [Aus-soaring] BGA accidents

[Matthew Gage]

On 31/03/2010, at 13:17 , gavin wrigley wrote:


Worthwhile reading.

Of interestthe BGA 'Basic' instructor rating requires a very  
serious effort to attain. If reccommended, the candidate has to pay  
a substantial fee and then attend (at least) three days of theory  
and practical training. There is a sort of probation period and then  
an 'acceptance' test before being allowed to take 'Trial Lessons'/ 
Air experience flights. Without going into detail, I am sure that  
the training is more thorough than GFA require for a similar  
privelige.


And for me was money well spent. I learnt more about flying and what  
to expect a glider to do in unusual situations in 4 days than in  
almost 1000 other hours flying !!
Also, this course is a pre-requisite to the Assistant Cat Instructor  
rating (Level 1 equivalent). The Ass Cat course is only 2 days as it  
is a follow on.




The UK hase more changeable weather, some 'interesting' airfields,  
AND COMMERCIAL PRESSURE.


And they will continue to fly in weather that we wouldn't open the  
hanger doors here - rain and very strong winds, and they will fly the  
trial flights in this (for the money) -




The fact that these 'Trial' flights have a disproportionate rate of  
crashery has been observed (by the BGA instructors panel) for a while


'Basic' Instructors use Trial flights to build experience/hours.

The Clubs use this to build revenue. Very few 'Trial Flights' return  
as members...most are revenue earners/grandpa's birthdays etc.


Beware the revenue trap/gift certificate/treasurers agenda!!!



Many UK clubs exist on the basis of trial flight revenue, which  
subsidises normal operation - some clubs get over 50% of their income  
this way !!!
This probably means that the number of trial flights being conducted  
is higher in proportion to club flights that here.
Also, I read a statistic some years ago that suggested that pilots  
with between 50 and 200 hours had the highest rate of accidents (like  
P platers do driving).

Most UK Basic Instructors have between 50 and 200 hours experience___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] NZ Accident Investigation

[Matthew Gage]

We will never know the truth - the only person who knew was Trevor.

But from being there and knowing what flying had happened in the lead  
up, I suspect all of the suggested factors played a part, along with a  
touch of get-home-itis


By the time he turned, he had already run out of options (he wasn't  
going to clear a line of trees he turned short of) and the paddock was  
way to short for a down wind landing with 20 knots of wind.




On 08/04/2010, at 12:05 , Christopher Mc Donnell wrote:


Another view. CAA & Coroner at odds.




Glider death cause disputed
By NATALIE AKOORIE and BELINDA FEEK - Waikato Times
Last updated 13:00 08/04/2010


The wife of a Cambridge glider pilot killed in a crash outside  
Matamata more than two years ago has questioned a Civil Aviation  
Authority report that her husband was being too competitive when he  
attempted a fatal turn at low altitude.


Trevor Atkins, a scientist originally from Canada, died when he  
crashed into a paddock 2 kilometres from the Matamata Aerodrome,  
near Waharoa, while competing in the national gliding championships  
in February, 2008.


In the CAA report out yesterday, safety investigator Alan Moselen  
said Dr Atkins' decision to continue flying toward the aerodrome,  
rather than landing early, could have been because he believed a  
thermal was nearby or because of the pressure of competition to keep  
going.


"What was on offer was the opportunity to acquire competition  
points, and this alone was possibly the primary driver that  
influenced the pilot's decision-making process."


The 51-year-old, who was a gliding administrator and had more than  
1200 hours' flying experience, was competing with another pilot for  
the trans-Tasman Trophy.


Mr Moselen found the decision to carry out a series of low-level  
turns and the eventual loss of control was "likely to have been  
influenced by competition and human error rather than any overriding  
degree of human under-performance caused by fatigue and or  
dehydration".


But Dr Atkins' wife, Niwa scientist Julie Hall, said a coroner's  
report into her husband's death released last month pointed to  
fatigue and dehydration as other contributing factors in the crash.


When asked whether her husband was so competitive he would put his  
life at risk, Dr Hall, a glider pilot herself, said: "Absolutely  
not. I don't believe Trevor was competitive at all costs ... anybody  
that knows him well would say no. Anybody that knew him well, and  
other pilots who have competed with him, say no. To be totally put  
down to competitiveness is out of character."


Dr Hall did not dispute that her husband was competitive but  
believed fatigue and dehydration were just as significant  
contributing factors in his decision-making.


"I thought his decision-making was impaired in some way and there is  
good scientific evidence that cognitive function can be impacted at  
low levels of dehydration and that's a message that needs to go out."


She wanted the flying, in particular gliding, community to be more  
aware of the impact of those factors when up in the air.


She is still in discussion with the CAA over the report which was  
released to her in January.


In his final findings into the death of Dr Atkins, coroner Peter  
Ryan said he accepted the pilot's "poor decision-making" at the time  
of the accident may have been affected by dehydration and fatigue.


"With respect to the author of the (CAA) report, dehydration and  
fatigue would, in my view, have been significant factors making up  
the human error factor referred to in the report."






Opinion poll



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Useless vehicles

[Matthew Gage]

What a totally unbalanced comparison ! You compare the most expensive  
sails made (by far) with the cheap end of engines.



On 12/04/2010, at 12:43 , DMcD wrote:


Isn't using a sail much cheaper?


How many sailmakers do you know who own a sailing boat? I don't know
any. I do know a number who own powerboats.

Sails are quite pricey. Say $70-80,000 for our AC boat and they only
last about 12 races. Perhaps a few more if you are not trying to be
competitive. Since most modern racing keelboat hulls are very easily
driven, the cost of getting to hull-speed using diesel is a lot less
than sail.

If you're not trying to go fast, and you want to go upwind, then you
can make the sails cheaper and they will last a lot longer but diesel
still looks like a good option compared with these sails.

If you are only going downhill and don't have to worry about speed,
then sails look better, especially if you can motor-sail if the going
gets a little slow.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF

[Matthew Gage]

I'm interested you mention the BGA.

Several UK airfields don't have the winch in view of the launch point - the 
only option is radio. many use CB as the amount of launch traffic would drown 
out the 2 gliding frequencies - 4 times the number of gliders as we have and 
all in radio range on each other.

The problems with a pilot controlled winch are how to deal with things going 
wrong:

Pilot doesn't release cable until past winch - cable wraps around winch with 
motor trying to wind it in = a break and a huge mess. Remember that a hang 
glider or paraglider pilot can see the winch at all times.
Signaller would have noticed a hazard ahead that is below nose of glider in 
climb.
Throttle response as glider rotates into climb - we tried many times with an 
automated throttle and it plain didn't work. It was too slow and the engine 
stalled ever time, no matter how gentle the pilot was. This was with the 
manufacturers techs on the field helping - they gave up first. The engine was 
an 8.2l GM V8 - 350Kw. Electric winch may be the answer.

Some clubs have used a radio transmitted speed from the glider to the winch so 
the driver has a very clear picture of what is going on.


On 28/05/2010, at 9:54 , harry medlicott wrote:

> Hi All,
>  
> Please bring up some logical arguments.
>  
> The one that the pilot cannot see behind him just doesn't have merit. We 
> regularly permit aerotows with no wing runner - a wing down takeoff. At least 
> with a winch launch we have the winch driver looking in the direction of the 
> launch which may not be perfect but is better than nothing. Have seen 
> thousands of winch launches including well over a thousand as an instructor 
> and many more driving a winch. Have yet to see a wing runner do anything 
> useful in the event of anything going wrong. Usually it is someone else on a 
> phone or radio or the pilot himself using his radio. Mostly it is the pilots 
> training which saves the day.
>  
> The BGA with its Safe Winch Launching program have gone back 35 years 
> examining and analysing accidents and incidents resulting from about 10 
> million winch launches. They keep and publish meticulous records of accidents 
> and incidents.
>  
> We should learn a lot from their work including some of our procedures which 
> for reasons of space I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that we could 
> improve our overall safety by modifying some of our pratices and advice to 
> pilots,
>  
> Harry Medlicott.
> - Original Message -
> From: Dave Donald
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 9:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
> 
> The wing tip runner does not 'manage' the take off process - the pilot does. 
> There seems to be a trend whereby pilots think that the launch process is 
> something that is controlled by the wing-runner and they are a passive 
> participant - this is completely wrong. The take-off process does not happen 
> without the express command of the pilot. Certainly, the wing runner can stop 
> a launch if they see fit - the pilot can't see behind him/her which is why 
> the launch continues to proceed after the 'all clear above and behind' call 
> is made to clear the airspace. The pilot has the ultimate authority in the 
> launch - it s called the release knob/handle.
>  
> Over the years I've also seen a number of methods of communicating between 
> launch point and winch/autotow in terms of signals - flashing headlights, 
> wings waving up and down and signal bats. The advantage with them is that 
> there is no interference. 
> The great majority of gliders now have radios so the pilot is not out of the 
> communications loop - they can monitor the radio calls and if there is any 
> conflict, they can terminate the launch. The launch does not have to proceed 
> just because the wing runner is waving 'full power' - pull the yellow handle!!
>  
> I just wonder what is the reason for changing what we are presently doing? 
> Old and dated methods - certainly!! But I haven't yet seen anyone write that 
> it will make launching 'safer' which would be a prime motivator, only that we 
> should use the radio because we can.
> From: Alan Wilson 
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> 
> Sent: Fri, 28 May, 2010 8:40:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Skynch and launch coord over VHF
> 
> I agree with Harry. At glider launch we persist with [semaphore] signals
> used 50 years ago, whereby the wing tip runner [who is not in the
> communications loop] still manages the take off process.  And I have seen
> winch clubs that coordinate launches on CB radio: that puts the glider pilot
> out of that communications loop.
> 
> In 2010 that can now be greatly improved by the use of the VHF glider radio.
> The glider pilot can be in charge and in the comms loop.
> 
> The same thing applies to aerotowing.  The tug pilot,  the aircraft on
> downwind, and the gli

Re: [Aus-soaring] Ops in vicinity CAAP 166-1(0) and CAAP-2(0), straw poll, correct cct entry for itinerant power a/c

[Matthew Gage]

Although the use of radio is not mandated everywhere, the way CAAP 166-2 is 
worded, it is foolish not to have one - not from a "technical" air law 
perspective, but from a criminal law perspective should you be unfortunate to 
be involved in an accident where a death occurs.

Having the use of lookout described as being effectively useless and use of 
radio described as ideally being the primary means of separation is very 
worrying - in an accident where a death occurred, it would not take much for 
the whole blame to be laid on the aircraft with no radio.


On 02/06/2010, at 16:34 , Texler, Michael wrote:

> Thanks Wombat and others,
> 
> All exciting stuff...
> 
>> So it seems that Beverley - and many other aerodromes that are
> "aircraft landing areas" will not be subject to the mandatory radio
> provisions.
> 
> Yep, I know that. Both Cunderdin (YCUN) and Beverley (YBEV) are
> uncertified, so the radio provisions do not apply there.
> 
>> that a radio-equipped aircraft ought to make at these uncertified
> aerodromes, and all I said about situational awareness still applies.
> 
> Couldn't agree more!
> 
>> My suggestion for these is to at least approach your local RAPAC to
> have the CTAF for them determined as 122.7 (or your choice of relevant
> frequency) and then use that frequency.
> 
> May lead to clutter of 122.7 though, unless glider pilots remember how
> to use a radio properly!
> 
>> Aerodrome listed as "Beverley (YBEE)" is NOT the WA gliding aerodrome
> but a private one in South Australia, owned by a resources company based
> in Adelaide.
> 
> Yep, the Adelaide Uni Gliding club flew out of there (YBEE) on a flying
> camp once back in the late 1980's (ask Redmond Quinn about that one).
> The were flying GZM a Bergfalke that used to be owned by BSS at YBEV,
> coincidence or spooky ;-)
> 
>> YBEV, has no entry in ERSA and therefore falls under the Multicom
> situation. YBEV is listed only in the location codes as an ALA, not as
> an aerodrome entry.
> 
> Yep, found easily in the latest ERSA.
> 
>> by removing the exemption "in the vicinity of a non-controlled
> aerodrome that is a certified, registered, military or designated
> aerodrome" rather than only those served by an RPT service or being a
> CTAF-R.
> 
> Mark Newton's post raises an interesting point for the restrictions this
> would place on non radio fitted gliders
> 
>> Expect further minor amendments while the new system settles down.
> 
> Yes, with interest!
> 
> Fly safely, lookout, communicate and listen too...
> 
> Michael
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] iPAD

[Matthew Gage]

Robert,

This doesn't create a problem with the devices - you can do this with more than 
just an iPhone - most new devices that you may consider using for nav (phones, 
pdas, etc) will contain this as part of the base chip.

The problem is with how we want to control or police it.

I suggest that trying to ban these devices (which also include some vario 
systems) or software (which can be coded to mask the availability of an AH) 
won't work, so don't bother trying.

We need to police the real issue (Cloud Flying), rather than aim to prevent it 
by secondary means. This means us pilots need to actually do something if we 
see it happening, rather than whinge in the bar afterwards.

For every method of trying to control devices or software, I will be able to 
find a way to beat the checks.


On 04/06/2010, at 17:49 , Robert Hart wrote:

> On 04/06/10 16:31, DMcD wrote:
>> One of the nerds in the room next door has one and I had a play at
>> lunchtime. Without exaggeration, it is ubercool. Very very nice to
>> play with. Looking at a few websites, it was better than most computer
>> screens by a long way.
>> 
>> However, the weather here does not lend itself to an evaluation in sunlight.
>> 
>> I think the screen technology is a long way away from the old PDA and
>> PNA screens. For a start, it has a something-like 179º viewing angle.
>> And while it may not be quite as bright as an LX 8000, it has built-in
>> GPS, accelerometer, 10-12 hour battery life, auto screen brightness
>> control, really good touch screen etc.
>>   
> The presence of an accelerometer in the iPad (and iPhone) create real issues 
> for its using in gliding, particularly gliding competitions. I have had 
> demonstrated to me the iPhone operating as an artificial horizon. An AH, as a 
> blind flying instrument, is illegal under the current competition rules.
> 
> Just how are competition staff supposed to handle this issue? Inspect 
> everyone's iPhone to make sure the app is not loaded? Ban iPhones?
> 
> With the increasing convergence of electronic devices, I do not think that 
> the iPad or iPhone are anywhere near the end of the line on this...
> 
> -- 
> Robert Hart  ha...@interweft.com.au
> +61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Promotional video for the VMFG in Melbourne

[Matthew Gage]

Better is to compress the video and post links to both and let us decide which 
to use.


On 10/06/2010, at 11:22 ,   
wrote:

> just discovered it is 113Mb
>  
> for those posting vid links in general, request advise file size when posting.
> some people still have pre-Cambrian systems, and isp's.
>  
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: John Parncutt
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:45 AM
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Promotional video for the VMFG in Melbourne
> 
> Hi all,
>  
>  
> Thought you might be interested in viewing a promotional video I have put 
> together for our club the VMFG.
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0KvVKl0klk
>  
>  
> Cheers,
>  
>  
>  
> John Parncutt
> Victorian Motorless Flight Group
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] dongles and NSW coverage - Temora

[Matthew Gage]

Optus works, but you have to move about until you find a spot with reception at 
the airfield. You probably need an external antenna to work well. You can 
probably forget about inside the club house!



On 21/06/2010, at 9:45 , Mike Cleaver wrote:

> Pam and others
> 
> Have to correct you there - Temora is served by Telstra and Optus/Virgin, 
> with 3G coverage better than GSM. However, the Optus 3G coverage is limited 
> to voice, GPRS and SMS. Closest data and video-on-screen coverage is at Wagga 
> and Griffith, though these services are rare outside major centres and 
> limited in regional centres. 
> http://www.optus.com.au/aboutoptus/About+Optus/Network+Coverage/Optus+Network+Coverage+Maps/NSW#
> 
> The Telstra Next G seems to be more widespread though the map is less clear:
> http://www.telstra.com.au/mobile/networks/coverage/state.html and 3G and GSM 
> coverage is more limited.
> 
> It is Vodafone that does not have an outlet in Temora though it serves the 
> Newell Highway between West Wyalong and Narrandera.
> 
> Mike Cleaver
> CFI Temora Gliding Club
> 
> 
> At 05:49 21/06/2010, you wrote:
>> We use Optus mobile Broadband prepaid when travelling, way cheaper than
>> paying for internet at motels and hotels. We bought two dongles to start
>> with. We re-charge on the website which is very simple & works fine, or buy
>> a prepaid voucher at a post office. If we haven't used one of them for three
>> months, we have to get a new simcard with a prepaid voucher at no extra
>> cost. Coverage is good at gliding comps we have been to except Temora where
>> there was/still is no Optus. As we use it instead of paying $20 or $30 per
>> day per laptop at motels, it is always going to be better value than that.
>> We're happy with it.
>> Cheers
>> Pam
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
>> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
>> Sent: Monday, 21 June 2010 12:48 AM
>> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] dongles
>> 
>> Probably a bit off topic but I would like to know what is the
>> collective experience out there with using dongles with either Optus
>> or Telstra to ones laptop for updating the weather etc when out on the
>> gliding field?? ie worth having or not, Expense, connectivity etc
>> Ron
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Re: [Aus-soaring] solar emergency lighting?

[Matthew Gage]

My experience with emergency exit lighting (admittedly overseas working in a 
theatre) is that they run from rechargeable batteries, as they don't have to 
last long in the event of a power failure, the battery will be small capacity. 
Probably the same sort of sealed lead acid batteries that we use - as a result, 
the charging could be the same - just use a small solar panel. 

Whether that complies with any regulations is another matter !!

The battery needs changing every few years - we had a power failure mid 
performance and all of the exit sign lighting failed as the batteries were dead 
- the system installed had no way of manually cutting the power individually to 
test.




On 22/06/2010, at 8:48 , Pam Kurstjens wrote:

> Has anyone had to provide emergency exit lighting in a hangar that is remote 
> from mains power?
> I would hope there is a solar powered option for example. Any ideas?
> Pam
> 04 2989 8872
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Re: [Aus-soaring] US of A Glider Exemption

[Matthew Gage]

Having watched that a few times, I'm not certain Flarm would have helped - it 
doesn't defend against pure stupidity or someone with a death wish. The lead 
gliders only option would have been to level his wings on hearing an alarm and 
ascertaining where the threat was, and that may not have been enough. Maybe an 
alarm going odd would have had the 2nd pilot looking out the window ?

Watching the vario readings from SeeYou (left hand column), the 2nd glider did 
a pull up in the middle of the thermal and then started turning. This is very 
similar to many mid-airs in thermals - the following pilot pulls up and loses 
all situational awareness, hoping for the best.



On 04/07/2010, at 18:16 , Urs Rothacher wrote:

> Mike wrote:
>> I'd love to know what led up to this and the flight paths in the 30 
>> seconds or so before the collision and I wouldn't be so rash as to 
>> make statements about the efficacy of Flarm in this circumstance 
>> before having that information. 
> 
> The last twenty seconds of the two gliders at the US nationals and how FLARM
> would have reacted to it are available here:
> www.flarm.com/motivation/2010_US_Nationals/
> right click to 'Safe as'
> Better movie available by mid next week.
> 
> Movie was generated with the original IGC tracks, running on SeeYou which
> generates NMEA output for both gliders. The SeeYou NMEA output is then used
> by the FLARM's instead of the internal GPS receiver.
> 
>> Also I'm aware of 2 cases of mid airs 
>> between Flarm equipped gliders in Europe. 
> 
> I am only aware of one incident, in France, where both gliders were FLARM
> equipped. Unfortunately one FLARM could no be found in the wreckage (even
> though reliable sources report that one was installed) so we don't know what
> happened.
> 
> Nevertheless: FLARM cannot prevent all collision incidents and a vigilant
> and effective lookout is the most essential part of any collision avoidance.
> 
> Would FLARM have prevented that collision at the US nationals? Almost
> certainly.
> 
> Urs - FLARM
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] UK airspace incursion

[Matthew Gage]

That's because the UK military don't have their own dedicated airspace - they 
use class G along with everyone else, with controllers alerting them to radar 
returns - which can and do see gliders, even wood and fabric. 

I heard another story (again from sutton bank), 2 friends were in wave at about 
10,000' when a tornado flew between them when they were 200m apart. The 
controller had filtered their returns out as they weren't moving. Both the 
controller and pilot visited the club that evening to apologise and buy beers.

Why Australia needs vast areas of restricted airspace for the 425 military 
aircraft is beyond me, when the UK makes do with no airspace (outside of class 
D round the bigger airfields) for 1589 military aircraft (data sourced from 
wikipedia).



On 26/08/2010, at 8:20 , Derek Ruddock wrote:

> Or the time I launched off the winch at Yorkshire Gliding club at Sutton 
> Bank, after releasing the wire and doing my checks, I had 2 Tornados roar 
> past, directly underneath me...
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of jim crowhurst
> Sent: Wednesday, 25 August 2010 10:14 PM
> To: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net; aus soaring
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UK airspace incursion
>  
> Often was the case that I would stand there in the morning, whist mopping the 
> morning dew off the wings of my glider, with the roar of Harrier GR3's 
> dogfighting directly above at around 6000ft. (INteresting to see their 
> tactics with variable thrust). The airspace above Britain is small and all 
> forms of avaiation use it. each has as much rght as another to use it. 
>  
> I also recall calling a British USAF base up as I was getting low near their 
> runway threshold (quite legal and within my rights), An american ATC type 
> answered and indicated that there was an aircraft on approach, but would send 
> him round until I was clear. I watched with interest as a KC135 'poured on 
> the coal' and did a large circuit as I gently drifed downwind, climing slowly 
> in my 2knot standard British thermal. The big tanker landed next time round. 
> That was 2003, I doubt a lot has changed.
>  
> Then theres the story of a K6 being fliped on it's back at 1800ft when a 
> Tornado (GR1 I think) zipped past at mach 0.7 whilst running into the bombing 
> range about 30km away. The footage from the tornado was impressive, just a 
> white speck flicks past the canopy. The RAF crew were great, came out to the 
> gliding field and invited a group of us to their station for a look round. 
> That was cool!
>  
> The K6 was fine BTW, it was stalled and the pilot just pulled through!
>  
> It's not more dangerous in the UK, just different, and the expectations of 
> all pilots are different. Like..why do ultralights keep crashing in the 
> ocean just off the coast of SE queensland. That to me seems dangerous!
>  
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:36:34 +0930
> From: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UK airspace incursion
> 
> It must be difficult at this time of the year airspace wise, as there is an 
> airshow on almost every weekend somewhere in the country during the summer 
> holiday season. The quantity of NOTAMs or equivalent must be staggering.
> J and I did a holiday over there some years back and went to the Duxford 
> airshow (absolutely the best airshow I have ever been to btw).  Whilst we 
> were at the show we met a whole stack of backpackers who were airshow junkies 
> and were traversing the countryside simply to go to where ever the next 
> airshow was... last weekend was so and so, this weekend is Duxford, next 
> weekend is such and such.  Sure enough the air show proceedings were delayed 
> whilst a glider wandered through the middle of it all.  I always wondered how 
> close he came to having a Spitfire intercept and escort him out of the 
> area.
> My one bit of flying there, in a Bergfalke 4 no less : ) , was at Burn 
> gliding club.  Whilst flying in the hazy summer weather, we had gliders local 
> soaring, a Canberra bomber (the last of the EW ones) doing racetracks 
> overhead and the power jocks from the next airfield over zipping by.  All 
> very busy.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed 25/08/10 12:50 PM , "rolf a. buelter" rbuel...@hotmail.com sent:
> 
> Hi Adam,
>  
> Don't think age of the pilots involved makes a scrap of difference, being 
> nationals one would hope the necessary experience would have provided better 
> outcomes. I read a number of posts in various forums (would forae be 
> correcter?) and the task was close but not through airspace. There is some 
> confusion if it was briefed appropriately.
>  
> Rgds - Rolf
>  
> From: aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:36:15 +0930
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Another UK accident
> 
> I knew someone would point that out!  Sadly yes, it did happen t

Re: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts

[Matthew Gage]

Probably as you can get them free from http://mapconnect.ga.gov.au/MapConnect/

Absolutely awful site to do this from, but you can get a custom map to cover 
the area you want (with a lot of trial and error) and the size you want - A4, 
A3, A1, A0

On 20/09/2010, at 18:57 , Ben Jones wrote:

> Disregard, my last digital map package WAS purchased from Maptrax,  Bugger
> that really peeves me off.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ben Jones
> Sent: Monday, 20 September 2010 3:47 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts
> 
> Yes they are produced by another company, im in the office but will be home
> soon and will re-reply
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
> Sent: Monday, 20 September 2010 6:28 AM
> To: Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone know a current source for digital WAC charts?
> 
> These were handled my Maptrax until May but now there is a note on
> their web site to say that they're not "producing" the aviation
> charts.
> 
> BR
> 
> D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts

[Matthew Gage]

I should have added:

Use a size bigger than you want as they take up a huge space with a legend.

See http://mapconnect.ga.gov.au/Output/1912_A4148285532795483023_1M_A4.pdf

for a map I created.


On 20/09/2010, at 18:57 , Ben Jones wrote:

> Disregard, my last digital map package WAS purchased from Maptrax,  Bugger
> that really peeves me off.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ben Jones
> Sent: Monday, 20 September 2010 3:47 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts
> 
> Yes they are produced by another company, im in the office but will be home
> soon and will re-reply
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
> Sent: Monday, 20 September 2010 6:28 AM
> To: Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone know a current source for digital WAC charts?
> 
> These were handled my Maptrax until May but now there is a note on
> their web site to say that they're not "producing" the aviation
> charts.
> 
> BR
> 
> D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Digital WAC charts

[Matthew Gage]

Agree, and there are other things wrong with them as well - only in landscape 
when I often want to print an area in portrait (lots of N/S flying, little E/W)

However, I suspect that Maptrax decided there was no market left for them with 
the government giving digital maps away free, even if the maps aren't the same.

You can always complete their feedback form and ask for elevations in Feet, 
etc. If enough of us do, they may even look at doing that !


On 21/09/2010, at 9:15 , Mike Borgelt wrote:

> At 08:33 AM 21/09/2010, you wrote:
>> I should have added:
>> 
>> Use a size bigger than you want as they take up a huge space with a legend.
>> 
>> See http://mapconnect.ga.gov.au/Output/1912_A4148285532795483023_1M_A4.pdf
>> 
>> for a map I created.
>> 
> 
> 
> That isn't a WAC chart. The elevations are in meters.
> 
> 
> Mike
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
> 
> email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] "Super Motor Falke" and towing

[Matthew Gage]

Don't count on the Falke being any better.

I had one tow behind a Rotax Falke some years ago in the UK. Performance was 
very similar to what Dave described. We barely cleared the airfield boundary 
fence (850m from launch point) in a K13. Conditions weren't perfect as we were 
at max weight for the K13 and the ground was soft, but grass was very short. 
Climb rate was not great after that. This was a test flight that wasn't 
repeated on that airfield for 2 seaters.

The biggest problem was that it just didn't have enough power to overcome the 
rolling resistance at the start. Once the glider was airborne, it was no 
different to being behind a cub.

On 30/09/2010, at 10:26 , Richard Skinner wrote:

> Thanks Dave.  There is a clear picture emerging in regard to the Dimona at 
> least.  I suspect that a “big engine” Falke might be more productive but the 
> process of understanding continues.
>  
> Regards
>  
> Richard Skinner
>  
> skinn...@bigpond.net.au
>  
> 08 8431 8249
> 0419 818 024
>  
> If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know
> when to push it, and when to back off. Chuck Yeager
> 
>  
> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
>  
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Dave Donald
> Sent: Thursday, 30 September 2010 7:33 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] "Super Motor Falke" and towing
>  
> I've had a tow behind a Super Dimona, two up in a moderately loaded Blanik. 
> On a 15c day, with 10 knots of headwind, and 100ft AMSL we used about 2500ft 
> for the combination to lift off from short grass. Initial acceleration and 
> rate of climb was very modest (circa 300ft/min), and the entire experience 
> could only be described as 'gentle'. 
> 
> Dave
>  
>  
> From: Mike Borgelt 
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> 
> Sent: Wed, 29 September, 2010 6:07:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] "Super Motor Falke" and towing
> 
> I think the people at Caboolture have towed with a Super Dimona.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> At 03:57 PM 29/09/2010, you wrote:
> >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> >boundary="=_NextPart_000_0052_01CB5FEA.C5DE7E70"
> >Content-Language: en-au
> >
> >Does anybody out there have any information regarding the launching 
> >of gliders by Motor Falke, or indeed, any other motor glider that 
> >may be used to launch?  I'm not aware of it in Australia but I 
> >understand that there may be some such happening in Europe?  I am 
> >aware of Ultra lights acting as tugs but I'm specifically interested 
> >in motor gliders.
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Richard Skinner
> >
> >skinn...@bigpond.net.au
> >
> >08 8431 8249
> >0419 818 024
> >
> >If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know
> >when to push it, and when to back off. Chuck Yeager
> >
> >P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
> >
> >
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> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax  Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Website - Can't Find anything !!!

[Matthew Gage]

Dave,

it's even worse for us using a mac - we can't access ANYTHING on the new web 
site - none of the links work (if you can work out what the menu is meant to be 
because it looks a mess). However, we can access the old one for now, but it 
hasn't been updated since the new one went live. I was told 5 weeks ago that 
the problems were fixed, but still no sign of having these made available.

you can get at the old site on http://2009.gfa.org.au  - rules are here: 
http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/sport/competition/AustralianNationalsRules.pdf


Matt

On 21/10/2010, at 10:31 , Dave Shorter wrote:

> I don’t like criticizing the efforts of people to make improvements, but I 
> must say that the latest website for GFA is absolutely impossible. I can’t 
> find anything I need.
>  
> Can someone point the way for me – where are the current National Competition 
> Rules?
>  
> Dave Shorter
> 11 Lighthouse Crescent
> Emerald Beach, NSW 2456
> email d...@shorter.net
> Ph 02 6656 1979, Mob 0429 429 539
>  
>  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Website - Can't Find anything !!!

[Matthew Gage]

Grant,

The big problem with having members do it for nothing is that you are then 
dependant of the said member to maintain it - Something that Tim did, but 
others may not - over the years, I've had a lot of business from sports 
organisations where the volunteer has stopped volunteering - the reasons I have 
encountered include:

- a new committee pisses off the volunteer
- The president's nephew has promised a new improved site, breaks everything 
and walks away - the original volunteer, rightly, wants nothing to do with the 
mess.
- the volunteer no longer has the time available (for many reasons)
- new requirements are more than the volunteer can handle (time or ability).

I've used the term "volunteer", but this also includes members doing work on a 
cost recovery or reduced price basis. Accepting a charge of less than a 
commercial rate is rarely a good idea - the person doing the work won't give it 
the priority of "full paid" work, and the committee will expect the same 
service as they would get if they paid full price - no one wins.

This leaves a commercial system, which needs to be cheap, so gives little room 
for customisation. I suspect that the decision to use IMIS was a good one, 
given the starting point - the implementation of it was flawed however.


Tim,

I've been providing the entry and results management software for a major 
sailing regatta in the UK since 1990 and although I stopped sailing in 1998 and 
left the UK in 2003, I still provide support for it. They have repeatedly 
looked for a commercial alternative (at my request), but there is nothing that 
works for them at any price.

What I did do though was make sure that the web content published direct from 
the system worked on any reasonable common browser starting in 1994 and 
continuing to today.

Now what I find frustrating is that somehow this new web site was permitted to 
go live without proper testing (or if it was tested, 25% of potential users 
were ignored - I really hope this isn't the case).

At the very least, the "content" should be updated so the home page lets people 
know of the problems and when they are likely to be resolved. As things stand, 
the site is un-useable for some of us (without using a different browser), and 
for the public looking for information on gliding, it is a PR disaster. 
Unfortunately, Safari really is the best browser to use with a Mac, Firefox has 
usability limitations when viewing PDF documents - which are common on the GFA 
web site !

As I was informed on the 14th Sept, "The problems with Safari, have been 
resolved, but we need to do an upgrade.  Before we rush to do this, we want to 
make sure there is nothing else that could be resolved at the same time."

Clearly, there is no rush, but this is getting to be a bit much. I would love 
to know what I could do to help speed things up - Any ideas ?

Matt



On 22/10/2010, at 10:37 , Tim Shirley wrote:

> Grant,
>  
> I built and maintained every computerised membership system the GFA ever had 
> (starting in 1978 and finishing in 2000 or so) until they went - with my 
> encouragement - to a commercial system.  After 20 years, I think I have 
> earned the right to say that those who whinge should be helping, instead.
>  
> When you have done it for that long, let me know. 
>  
> Cheers
>  
> Tim
>  
> se sono rose, fioriranno
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Grant Davies
> Sent: Friday, 22 October 2010 10:29
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] New Website - Can't Find anything !!!
>  
> It is not that hard to build a CMS, even interfacing shouldn’t be that hard. 
> I build them for less than $5k.
>  
> Help was offered and I am sure there are plenty of other web savvy 
> programmers out there who could have done a great job for far less than what 
> was paid for a plug-in solution. But nothing was the stern reply. I think 
> $50k was touted as the cost for this great upgrade.
>  
> As we all know, an out of the box solution never fits all applications. Be it 
> iMIS or Joomla. As soon as you want to make it do something different things 
> get ugly.
>  
> It is not really the wC3 compliance that’s the problem. Most browsers can 
> deal with it, except some of the less popular ones running on Macs it seems. 
> The issue is more that it is slow and clunky and not logical to navigate. Of 
> course there is also the fact that non web/graphical savvy people try their 
> best to add content but it doesn’t always come out looking that great.
>  
> Options:
> 1.Pay a large company heaps of money for an off the shelf solution that 
> doesn’t quite do the job and wait for every and pay even more if you want 
> anything changed or altered
> 2.Have your members do something for either nothing or very little and 
> have it do exactly what you want and maybe have to wait a little if changes 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Markings

[Matthew Gage]

I believe that GFA AN84 is an agreed set of differences / exemptions from the 
existing part 45.

The proposed new part 45 as mentioned by Wombat actually includes all of these 
and goes further - removing the need for under wing markings and halving the 
minimum height of the vertical markings.

It doesn't specifically cover competition markings, but they are permitted from 
the clause that permits other markings provided they can't be confused with a 
registration.


On 03/01/2011, at 9:20 , John Trezise wrote:

> I just have not seen any reference yet to GFA AN84 which details the 
> requirements. This is downloadable from the GFA website /Airworthiness
>  
> John
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Ipad

[Matthew Gage]

Exactly. The current generation of PNAs (about 5" screen) are about right - 
this is from experience of using 3" iPaq, 3.5" iPaq, 5" PNA (driving only) and 
6.5" purpose made gliding instrument.

The 6.5" was actually too big - it took too much space in the panel. The 3" 
screens are too small. The 3.5" was just about ok.

On 08/02/2011, at 14:34 , DMcD wrote:

> But I think it's close to being too
> big to use in a cockpit while the iPhone is close to being too small.
> 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Darling Downs weather forecast for 5 - 6 March 2011

[Matthew Gage]

Tom,

Not sure on the rules because the link from the OLC site is broken and I can't 
find them directly on the GFA site, but it looks like the DCE only takes 
flights that are "IGC-valid" and not those that are "OLC-valid".

Given that many flights aren't logged to the OLC at all, and some clubs are 
better than others at doing this, and additionally, this is based on the DCE 
scores, so an IGC approved logger is needed to count, with many more not 
bothering if they can get an OLC valid IGC file more easily, then these figures 
really shows which club is best at getting flights downloaded from an IGC 
logger and uploaded to the OLC site - they certainly don't say anything 
meaningful about the flights that took place.


Bob,

If you take out the comp flights for GCV, then the average task length would 
rise !by quite a lot !

Matt


On 04/03/2011, at 11:05 , tom claffey wrote:

> 
> If Robert is taking stats from DCE part of OLC then there are some serious 
> flaws there anyway!
> On doing a search on myself I find 4 flights for the season however I do not 
> show on any DCE list so Benalla gets 3 more good flights and Lake Keepit one.
> I should be number 11 on list - unless others are missing as well!
> 
> Is DCE still run out of DDSC?
> 
> Tom
> 
> --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Bob Flood  wrote:
> 
> From: Bob Flood 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Darling Downs weather forecast for 5 - 6 March 2011
> To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" 
> 
> Received: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 5:07 PM
> 
> H…. Flame proof jacket firmly buttoned…..
> 
>  
> Interesting comment; considering not a single flight from the club field 
> between 14th Dec and 22nd Jan. Fortunately a number of members flew the comp 
> at Benalla and helped to make up for that.
> 
>  
> I looked at the numbers a bit closer and found.
> 
>  
> Avg flight/pilot: Beverly 300k; Benalla 322k; DDSC 330k
> 
>  
> Yes, certainly Alan is a great asset to the club. If you took out his flights 
> DDSC would probably be still around equal to GCV if you took out all their 
> visitor’s flights.
> 
>  
> Despite petty interclub jealousies, the OLC is a great way to encourage more 
> x-country flying and can only be good for the sport as a whole.
> 
>  
> Fly safe, have fun.
> 
>  
> Cheers
> 
>  
> Bob Flood
> 
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Roger Druce
> Sent: Thursday, 3 March 2011 1:24 PM
> To: ha...@interweft.com.au ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
> Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Darling Downs weather forecast for 5 - 6 March 2011
> 
>  
> Robert,
> The cheek of it all!!
> The OLC result you point to is re speed.
> However if you look at OLC-Plus, which is what realy matters, one sees that 
> Beverley and GCV Benalla have trounced you lot.  Moreover if you took away 
> Alan Barnes where would you lot be!!
> Roger Druce
> 
> On 3/03/2011 7:56 AM, Robert Hart wrote:
> 
> Hi folks
> 
> The weekend forecast is available at 
> http://the-white-knight-speaks.blogspot.com and it does not look very 
> promising at this stage. I will update tomorrow as usual.
> 
> Fortunately, south east Queensland has received enough soarable weather since 
> the deluges in December and January to allow Darling Downs Soaring Club to 
> win the OLC League - see 
> http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/league.html?st=olc-league&r=total  for the second time in three years!!!
> 
> 
> -- 
> Robert Hart  ha...@interweft.com.au
> +61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
>   
>   
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Re: [Aus-soaring] New frontier: XC wave along the Great DividingRange

[Matthew Gage]

It may be possible to find some sat pics that show the location and extent of 
wave in different conditions - I've seen several that show wave well for the 
UK, including wave propagating more than 1500km downwind - the source being the 
Pyrenees, with the occasional smaller range helping keep it going.

It should be possible to correlate these with reported wind conditions along 
the range, so that it should be possible to predict even in the blue.



On 18/03/2011, at 10:55 , Paul Mander wrote:

> I was flying out of Bunyan about ten years ago, FL100, but with clearance 
> only as far North as CB airspace. Wind was about 240/25. I had flown to 
> Gippsland and return. There were lenticulars as far as one could see to the 
> North, and I got the feeling that the Great Dividing Range was working all 
> along its length. I do believe there are some big flights to be done on the 
> East Coast if one could deal with the bureaucracy. Paul Mander
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Jim 
> Staniforth
> Sent: Friday, 18 March 2011 9:17 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] New frontier: XC wave along the Great DividingRange
>  
>   Didn't know whether wind in the sim is just one figure or if there's a 
> programmable wind and temperature gradient. Those gradients are probably 
> required for modeling wave in the simulator.
>   Hoping that with or without the simulator, sharing of local wave 
> information can help enable long XC flights in wave.
> It helps that in the last few years forecast soundings have vastly improved.
> Perhaps a "Google Map" or similar can be set up to share the information on?
>   Here's an example of a Google Map to share soaring information. Sorry, it's 
> not Australia (Sierra Nevada) but it has wave areas and windows, convergence 
> lines, house thermals, landing places, etc drawn in.
> http://tinyurl.com/y9eb3z3
> Jim
> 
> From: Tom Wilksch 
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> 
> Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 2:28:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] New frontier: XC wave along the Great Dividing 
> Range
> 
> Hi Jim
>  
> Wave conditions in Condor are set up by simply adjusting wind speed and 
> direction.  Assuming there is a suitable obstacle in the way, wave should 
> form.  Whether or not it accurately represents what is there in real life is 
> a different matter entirely!
>  
> Tom
> - Original Message -
> From: Jim Staniforth
> To: Aus-Soaring
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:01 AM
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] New frontier: XC wave along the Great Dividing Range
>  
> Looking at Jim Payne's latest 1765k wave flight on OLC reminded me of this.
>   A few years ago, a group of us discussed the possibility of Australian XC 
> wave flying on a rained-out day at the Narromine Cup. We talked about 
> investigating each club along the range's local wave, then combining that 
> information into a model of what could be flown XC. Someone like Terry 
> Bellair could have fun with that. He seems to find lift in places and at 
> times of the day others can't be bothered with.
>   Since then, the Condor simulator has become a popular training tool and 
> Winter fun toy. I don't have a copy, but imagine that weather can be set up 
> to model wave in the Great Dividing Range?
>   Does anyone have experience setting up wave conditions in Condor? What do 
> you think?
> Jim
> 
>  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Australian Grand Prix - Lake Keepit

[Matthew Gage]

And before someone whinges yet again about other potentially "better" systems, 
I suggest that if they want this, they put up the cash to pay for them


On 23/03/2011, at 14:46 , Ross McLean wrote:

> It depends a lot on how the Spot is mounted in the glider. Ideally they need
> to be flat with a good clear view of the satellite (read sky). Even then if
> the glider is turning steeply when the Spot wants to transmit it will miss
> the satellite which is why you get that leapfrog effect. It's not ideal but
> it is better than nothing at all which is what we used to have.
> ROSS
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Robinson,
> Peter B (Information Systems)
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2011 2:20 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Australian Grand Prix - Lake Keepit
> 
> It would be even better if the update frequency from spot tracking on
> each glider was consistent, seems to vary from 10mins to 20mins, which
> causes a leap frogging effect on the race tracking. Is it possible to
> have all gliders updates synchronised together with a 5 minute or less
> update?  
> 
> Interested to understand whether this is a limitation of SPOT or just a
> configuration decision.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anne
> Elliott
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2011 1:37 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Australian Grand Prix - Lake Keepit
> 
> Thanks Ross .. it's fun to follow the race on SPOT.. AE
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ross
> McLean
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2011 2:01 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Australian Grand Prix - Lake Keepit
> 
> The race is on. Half way down the first leg Hank Kauffman is in the
> lead, with Bruce Taylor, Tom Claffey & Graham Parker in hot pursuit. See
> the Spot tracking at http://track.soaringstuff.net/spot.html
> 
> Cheers, ROSS
> _
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Tracking

[Matthew Gage]

And as I said:

If someone wants a better system, they can pay for it.

If the organisers and competitors don't want or don't see the benefit in terms 
of what it costs, then no amount of whinging will see them do it.
If you can find enough like minded people to pay for this, I'm sure the 
organisers and competitors would be happy to use it - then will probably be 
willing at acknowledge who funded the tracking - it's sponsorship at the end of 
the day.

I really don't care - I have better things to do with my day than watch a 
glider tracking web page - like earn enough money to fly.


Matt

PS: This is not the place to conduct a personal vendetta you seem to have. 
Don't bother responding, you're in my kill list now anyway



On 23/03/2011, at 22:36 , Mal Bruce wrote:

> Hi Mathew & AUS S
>  
> Matthew Gage said
> And before someone whinges yet again about other potentially "better" 
> systems, I suggest that if they want this, they put up the cash to pay for 
> them.
>  
> Matthew prior to the GP in 2008 I was asked to look into tracking systems for 
> the GP at a GP 08 meeting at I think it was St George rowers on the river 
> near the Airport
>  
> I gained much knowledge the two satellite systems Iridium and Globalstar 
> (Spot) and looked into GSM text and GPRS systems.
>  
> Iridium is like the mega network the US military use it.
>  
> Globalstar is a like Vodafone drop outs no service.
>  
> With Globalstar & your Spot lucky if you can get the maximum update at 10 
> minute intervals.
> http://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=101&sidenav=85
>  
> Iridium can update at 4 second intervals GPS tracker hardware constraint.
> http://www.pivotel.com.au/iridium_int_coverage.html
>  
> After I did all the research and came up with the goods and later we also 
> tested the goods http://www.tracplus.com/downloads/Geoff.pdf
>  
> I was told the GFA and NSW GA had purchased spot trackers (yes you already 
> paid for them) without even discussing the 100 plus hours of research and 
> phone calls I made at my cost.
>  
> And a tracking website appeared along with it shortly after it.
>  
> For a one week you could hire ten Iridium trackers for $1000.00 to $3000.00 
> less if we gat a sponsor.
>  
> Using the knowledge and ideas gained and some willing helpers there are many 
> that subscribe to this list we could promote glider racing like never before.
>  
> It would be possible to build GPS Video iridium trackers to take viewers 
> along for the ride I even got to the point of speaking with R&D people about 
> the concept.
>  
> Peter Heath was using iridium to track the QLD rescue helicopters and AMSAR 
> Stuart Ferguson tested the units at the time.
>  
> Let me put it this way with Iridium you could have seen Graham break away and 
> the fleet following and his 13 second lead in real time well 4 seconds short.
>  
> They say to many cooks spoil the broth in the case of the tracking one non 
> flying cook spoils the broth.
>  
> Happy not to be the cooks Puppet that's your job Ross the copyright infringer 
> and cheat.
>  
> http://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=101&sidenav=85
>  
> http://www.pivotel.com.au/iridium_int_coverage.html
>  
>  
> http://www.pivotel.com.au/satellite.html
>  
> http://www.tracplus.com/downloads/Geoff.pdf
>  
> http://www.tracplus.com/hardware.aspx
>  
>  
> EVER NOTICED THAT WHEN YOU TELL THE TRUTH NO ONE RESPONDS BACK !
>  
> Nite Nite Mal the Flamer
>  
> PS: If its true its not defamation
>  
> Awaits being flamed and more are you taking medication comments from the 
> Trolls

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Re: [Aus-soaring] AIP

[Matthew Gage]

Brilliant - this is only available if you are running Internet Explorer.

So those of us with a Mac have no access to the AIP on-line.


On 24/03/2011, at 10:09 , Mike Borgelt wrote:

> Nope, all I get is "file not found"
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> At 09:03 AM 24/03/2011, you wrote:
>> Mike
>> 
>> Each of those chapter headings is a link to the relevant chapter - click on 
>> it and the full page appears!
>> 
>> Magic!
>> 
>> Wombat
>> 
>> At 08:37 24/03/2011, you wrote:
>>> Thats nice Derek but did you try to read the AIP? I tried yesterday and all 
>>> you get is chapter headings.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> At 07:28 AM 24/03/2011, you wrote:
 https://www.ano.gov.au/publications/aip.asp
 http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_91044
 
 Mr Google is your friend :)
 
 Cheers
 
 Derek
 $B?M@8$OC;$$$G$9!'0lF|$r$D$+$`(B
 
 -Original Message-
 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
 [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron 
 Sanders
 Sent: Thursday, 24 March 2011 7:19 AM
 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
 Subject: [Aus-soaring] AIP
 
 OFF TOPIC--BUT can anyone tell me if I can read the Australian AIP
 and CAO's off the internet please?  And the ANR's ??
 
 Sanders
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 Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
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>>> 
>>> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
>>> 1978
>>> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
>>> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
>>> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
>>> 
>>> email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
>>> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>> ___
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> 
> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
> 
> email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] AIP

[Matthew Gage]

I have firefox, and it doesn't work either.


On 24/03/2011, at 11:13 , Jim Staniforth wrote:

> Firefox works, and is available for mac.
> Jim
> 
> From: Matthew Gage 
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
> 
> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 4:58:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AIP
> 
> Brilliant - this is only available if you are running Internet Explorer.
> 
> So those of us with a Mac have no access to the AIP on-line.
> 
> 
> On 24/03/2011, at 10:09 , Mike Borgelt wrote:
> 
> > Nope, all I get is "file not found"
> > 
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > At 09:03 AM 24/03/2011, you wrote:
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> Each of those chapter headings is a link to the relevant chapter - click 
> >> on it and the full page appears!
> >> 
> >> Magic!
> >> 
> >> Wombat
> >> 
> >> At 08:37 24/03/2011, you wrote:
> >>> Thats nice Derek but did you try to read the AIP? I tried yesterday and 
> >>> all you get is chapter headings.
> >>> 
> >>> Mike
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> At 07:28 AM 24/03/2011, you wrote:
> >>>> https://www.ano.gov.au/publications/aip.asp
> >>>> http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_91044
> >>>> 
> >>>> Mr Google is your friend :)
> >>>> 
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>> 
> >>>> Derek
> >>>> $B?M@8$OC;$$$G$9!'0lF|$r$D$+$`(B
> >>>> 
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> >>>> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron 
> >>>> Sanders
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, 24 March 2011 7:19 AM
> >>>> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] AIP
> >>>> 
> >>>> OFF TOPIC--BUT can anyone tell me if I can read the Australian AIP
> >>>> and CAO's off the internet please?  And the ANR's ??
> >>>> 
> >>>> Sanders
> >>>> ___
> >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
> >>>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >>>> 
> >>>> ___
> >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
> >>>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >>> 
> >>> Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
> >>> 1978
> >>> phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> >>> fax  Int'l + 61 746 358796
> >>> cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
> >>> 
> >>> email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
> >>> website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
> >>> ___
> >>> Aus-soaring mailing list
> >>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ___
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> >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> > 
> > Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
> > 1978
> > phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
> > fax  Int'l + 61 746 358796
> > cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
> > 
> > email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Paint advice

[Matthew Gage]

Tom,

A trip to an automotive supplier would be better than the hardware store !

Remove all of the old paint.
Get a GRP filler at act as the undercoat and to smooth the surface. Some are 
black and may be good enough as the finish with sanding and a polish.
Use an auto polyurethane or acrylic aerosol paint for the top coat with very 
very thin coats.


On 09/04/2011, at 16:34 , Tom Wilksch wrote:

> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am currently in the process of painting the instrument panel for my 
> simulator.  The panel was built from glass fibre, and I (prehaps unwisely) 
> followed the advice of the local Bunnings paint guy as to what paint to use 
> to get a matt black finish.  Unfortunately, the surface of the paint has 
> started to form little cracks all over it, and needless to say, I'm not very 
> happy with the final look.
> 
> Can anyone offer any advice on what sort of primer and paint combo would be 
> best to spray direct onto glass fibre?  Preferably something available at the 
> hardware store.  Bunnings has a pretty large range so I'm sure there is 
> something there, I was probably just given the wrong advice.  I also suspect 
> some of it was my own doing in that in my enthisiasm, I probably put on too 
> much paint per coat.
> 
> Any advice would be much appreciated!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tom Wilksch 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to sit on tow?

[Matthew Gage]

On 13/04/2011, at 18:28 , stephenk wrote:

> A tug upset from too low would mean the tug pilot had a lot of forward stick 
> and at release would pitch down. Scary but controllable. I have never heard 
> of an upset like this (I imagine it could happen, just doesn't seem to). I am 
> also guessing there is some assymetry which prevents equivalent high/low 
> upsets (ie power of the glider elevator might be stronger  pushing down on 
> the glider = pulling up on the tug than the perhaps weaker effect of glider 
> elevator lifting to pull the tug tail down).
> 

probably because the upset happens slower and is more frightening to the glider 
pilot, so they release earlier.


I've had a number of situations where being in low tow was much  more dangerous 
to the glider pilot than high tow.

Behind a low powered tug in a ballasted glider - the tug decides he wants to 
climb out at 50 knots, not the 75 really want, and hits the house thermal at 
the end of the strip, then pulls back in it - I have no where to go except 
down, and initially with zero aileron control. Releasing here will result in a 
crash, so I hope the tug has enough forward elevator to get back down to me as 
I have no way of getting up to it. This has happened to be 3 times, and each 
time I was in high tow to begin with - had I been in low tow, I may not be here 
now !!!

I've flown a vintage glider on a short rope - it simply didn't have enough 
forward elevator to maintain low tow at the slowest speed the tug could manage. 
Trying to stay there would probably have resulted in an uncontrolled transition 
to high tow and then beyond - so low tow would have caused the too high upset.

I've flown a glider with a C of G hook and had the canopy scratched by the rope 
rubbing against it in low tow - which results in reduced visibility in flight. 
Ignoring the future safety implications, any "normal" mode of flight that 
causes damage to either the tug or glider is wrong, and should really be 
reported.

At the end of the day, the most important factor is the safety of BOTH the 
glider AND the tug, not one or the other, and I will make a decision based on 
the situation, but with a default assumption of low tow. If the tug pilot is 
unhappy that I want high, he can refuse to tow me.

In the situations above, a short rope if either a major cause of the problem, 
or makes it worse. If I'm presented with a short rope, expect me in high tow. 
In any situation, a C of G hook and a short rope is asking for trouble


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Music while flying?

[Matthew Gage]

Fully agree flying has to be fun, and different people enjoy different things. 
Personally, I don't enjoy aerobatics at all, and any instructor who insists on 
doing them with me on a check flight is going to get an ear full, along with 
the CFI ! I don't particularly enjoy aimless wandering about near the airfield 
either.

I find any man or machine made noise a distraction, so no music, the radio gets 
tuned to OFF if it gets busy and the vario volume is as low as I can set it and 
still hear something, with all down tones disabled, and up signalled in cruise 
only if the netto is greater than the current McCready setting.

Providing it doesn't distract from the fundamentals of safe flight, then do 
what you want - including listening to music.

Fly safe and have fun.

Matt


On 15/04/2011, at 10:01 , Grant Davies wrote:

> I’m with you Al,
>  
> At our club our flying is generally local and we are not full on comp 
> orientated.
>  
> I fly for the enjoyment of it and I like music so I find flying with music a 
> heightened experience.
>  
> I can’t think of anything better than bobbing around the clouds listening to 
> Jeff Buckley crooning in the background.
>  
> I also see the point that some serious pilots may see music as a distraction 
> and understand their comments in relation to its appropriateness.
>  
> Horses for courses.
>  
> Kindest Regards
>  
> Grant Davies
> m. 0419 818 315
> f. 07 41 54 14 36
> e. gr...@davies.id.au
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Al Borowski
> Sent: Thursday, 14 April 2011 11:26 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Music while flying?
>  
> I always thought that the whole point of gliding was to have fun - and if 
> playing music increases your enjoyment, and doesn't compromise safety, then 
> why not?
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Al
> 
> On 14 April 2011 23:07,  wrote:
> Hi Patch & All,
> I am with you bro!
> 
> But, perhaps for totally different reasons???
> 
> Aviators seem to be, in the main, a very pragmatic bunch. Glider pilots, as a 
> sub-group, also seem to fit this mould. The question "Where are the poets of 
> flight?" has been discussed on this forum in the past. As a matter of 
> interest, try Goggling  "Joseph C Lincoln Award"  to see one excellent 
> attempt to address the balance (although that is not exactly what the stated 
> goals of the award are about).
> 
> To get to the point,  I pose the following question " Why in God's name would 
> you carry, and listen to, canned music whilst gliding?" Each time you take a 
> launch, you are potentially putting yourself in a special position where you 
> can resonate with the whole universe - Mind, Body, Soul, as one. As such, the 
> canned music is, at best,  just distracting noise.
> 
> Think about it!
> 
>  Especially if you have not been there!
> 
>  But I suspect, you all know exactly what I am talking about.!
> 
> {From a competition pilot's view (a subset group that does not exclude the 
> above principle- quite the reverse in fact - if you are not at one with the 
> environment - you will not win), Tom Claffey's post on the subject is 
> relevant - Tom gives no reasons. Tom would you care to expound on your post, 
> for the uninformed?}
> 
> Regards,
> Gary
> 
> 
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