Re: [Scouted] Hip Replacement Surgery - An Outpatient Procedure

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 09:50 PM 11/16/03 -0800, Deborah Harrell wrote:
> Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >I wrote:

> >"...The Zimmer Minimally Invasive Solutions
> 2-Incision
> >technique allows surgeons to install the same
> >artificial hip joint through two small incisions --
> >each no more than 2 inches long -- rather than the
> >traditional single incision between 4 and 12 inches
> >long...With this technique...nearly 90% of patients
> >leave the hospital the
> >day of or day after their hip replacement surgery,
> >instead of the traditional weeklong stay..."
> Been nice if they'd discovered it a quarter of a
> century earlier, before my
> mother had both of them replaced, after all else she
> had gone through with
> her back and hips and all after the chimney fell on
> top of the bed she had
> gotten under when the tornado hit their house when
> she was about twelve years old . . .
Ugh, lucky to survive that...
  She didn't grow up in Kansas,
did she?  


From <>

FAMOUS LARGE TORNADO OUTBREAKS IN THE UNITED STATES
Ranked according to severity
[...]

 8.DEEP SOUTH OUTBREAK

*   March 21-22, 1932
*   Deep South   (especially Alabama)
*   33 tornadoes
*   334 deaths   (268 of these in Alabama)
*   Damage $5 million
*   3:00 pm - 1:00 am
It was about 7 pm when one of the tornadoes passed through Clay County and 
took out their house (located at 33° 23.67'N, 85° 40.68'W).  Her back was 
broken, but they didn't find out until a few days later.  Prior to the hip 
replacements, she had at least a couple of spinal fusion operations that I 
recall, and as you may know, back then that meant something like six weeks 
in the hospital before they let you go home.  All the abuse caused her to 
develop arthritis with some massive bone spurs, some of which had to have 
something done about them, too.



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.


>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.
>
>
>
> > What we're talking about here is relative skill level.
> >  The question is, is someone who is good enough to get
> > to where they are likely to be really, really good at
> > what they do?  Again, look at professional baseball
> > players.  To play in the major leagues you have to be
> > one of the ~1000 best baseball players _in the world_.
> >  And there are tens of millions of people who have at
> > least, at some point in their lives, tried to play
> > baseball.  So out of all of those tens of millions of
> > people, MLB players are in the top _1000_.  That's
> > incredibly good.
>
> I thought of another reason why the analogy doesn't really work How often
> does an owner buy a new baseball team, force out the the top pitcher,
with
> an ERA of 2.15 for the last three seasons and replace him with a pitcher
> with an ERA of 4.55?  I personally know a corporation that replaced a
> company president who lead the company to a clear first in market share
> with someone else who ran his organization a distant fourth.  They kept
> some of his subordinates, but they didn't fare as well as the
subordinates
> of the internal division that was the distant fourth.

Oh, and before you ask, the company made the corporation that owned it a
tremendous ROI.

Dan M.


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Re: [Scouted] Hip Replacement Surgery - An Outpatient Procedure

[Deborah Harrell]

> Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >I wrote:

 
> >"...The Zimmer Minimally Invasive Solutions
> 2-Incision
> >technique allows surgeons to install the same
> >artificial hip joint through two small incisions --
> >each no more than 2 inches long -- rather than the
> >traditional single incision between 4 and 12 inches
> >long...With this technique...nearly 90% of patients
> >leave the hospital the
> >day of or day after their hip replacement surgery,
> >instead of the traditional weeklong stay..." 
 
> Been nice if they'd discovered it a quarter of a
> century earlier, before my 
> mother had both of them replaced, after all else she
> had gone through with 
> her back and hips and all after the chimney fell on
> top of the bed she had 
> gotten under when the tornado hit their house when
> she was about twelve years old . . .

Ugh, lucky to survive that...
  She didn't grow up in Kansas,
did she?  

Having temporarily injured both hips in various horse
accidents, I can sympathize with the sheer misery of
being unable to walk, sit or even lie down
comfortably.  :P

Debbi

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.



> What we're talking about here is relative skill level.
>  The question is, is someone who is good enough to get
> to where they are likely to be really, really good at
> what they do?  Again, look at professional baseball
> players.  To play in the major leagues you have to be
> one of the ~1000 best baseball players _in the world_.
>  And there are tens of millions of people who have at
> least, at some point in their lives, tried to play
> baseball.  So out of all of those tens of millions of
> people, MLB players are in the top _1000_.  That's
> incredibly good.

I thought of another reason why the analogy doesn't really work How often
does an owner buy a new baseball team, force out the the top pitcher, with
an ERA of 2.15 for the last three seasons and replace him with a pitcher
with an ERA of 4.55?  I personally know a corporation that replaced a
company president who lead the company to a clear first in market share
with someone else who ran his organization a distant fourth.  They kept
some of his subordinates, but they didn't fare as well as the subordinates
of the internal division that was the distant fourth.

Unsurprisingly, the market share dropped like a rock, as I mentioned
before.  The corporate leadership team search high and low for the cause,
ignoring the elephant in the room.

Dan M.


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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.


> --- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In
> regards to CEOs voting republican, perhaps they
> > just know where their
> > bread is buttered.
> >
> > I doubt Jack Welch could do my job.
> > Your job maybe, but not Eriks or Dans.
> > CEOs are not superior versions of mainline humans,
> > they are simply
> > specialists performing a specific function.
> > And outside of their specialty, they are incompetent
> > in the same way any
> > other human would be.
> >
> > xponent
> > Not Impressed By Elitist Type Arguments Maru
> > rob
>
> It's not really an elitist type argument.

It may not seem so to you, but I would suggest that you spend almost no time
at societal levels that would find your argument insulting.
This country is not just for rich people, it is for all people.
Therefore, your glorification of people who are all millionaires, touting
their skills, while ignoring the skills of everyone who make the existence
of those millionaires possible, isn't gonna play well in Pasadena Texas.

It takes years to become a "good" carpenter. Neither you or Jack Welch or
Michael Jordan are going to come in on monday and be qualified by friday.
And you and Jack Welch and Michael Jordan took years to become "good" at
what you do.

My point being that there is no truth to the concept that "All" brilliant
people want to sit behind a desk the rest of their lives.


> I remember
> Michael Wilbon writing about Michael Jordan that what
> made watching him truly special was that he was better
> at what he did than anyone else in the world was at
> what they did.  I don't know that was really the case
> - although given how great Jordan was, I'm not willing
> to reject it out of hand.

Its a mistake to conflate physical skills and abilities with business
acumen.


>
> What we're talking about here is relative skill level.
>  The question is, is someone who is good enough to get
> to where they are likely to be really, really good at
> what they do?  Again, look at professional baseball
> players.  To play in the major leagues you have to be
> one of the ~1000 best baseball players _in the world_.
>  And there are tens of millions of people who have at
> least, at some point in their lives, tried to play
> baseball.  So out of all of those tens of millions of
> people, MLB players are in the top _1000_.  That's
> incredibly good.  Now, outside of baseball, are they
> likely to be any better at anything (non-athletic)
> than you or I?  No, of course not.  But to be one of
> the top, what, one-hundredth of one percent of the
> people who engage in an activity - think about how
> gifted you have to be to reach that level.  On the
> whole, I have noticed, people don't appreciate that
> sort of skill level outside of their own profession.
> They look at baseball players and think that looks
> easy.  Or see the mistake made by a CEO and think any
> idiot would have known not to do that.  But I don't
> think so - not even close.
>
LOL
Think Michael Jordan and his flirtation with baseball.
What if Jordan had decided on baseball and had never attempted pro
basketball?
He would be a footnote.
Your whole argument is invisibly dependent on the idea that everyone
actually finds or is attracted to do what he/she is best capable of doing.

There are thousands of decisions made when one is young that determine where
one will end up as an adult.
Would you argue that everyone in the world is in the best place they could
be?
I know you wouldn't argue that, its silly.
But I'd like to point out that I am quite good at what I do, and am
confident that I could do even better. I resisted entering this line of work
for over 15 years. It is not what I wanted to do.
My problem was that there were so many things I would have liked and never
could decide. I wanted all of them.

When I was a senior in high school I took speech in order to evade another
year of english.
Every week the teacher gave out assignments for our speech that week, and
every week I stood before the podium with blank index cards in my hand, and
every week I gave the best speech in the class. I made it all up on the
spot.
I made all As in that class and earned a Speech scholarship that I never
used. Uses for a speech scholarship was never reflected in my world.


xponent
Make Of It What You Will Maru
rob



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Hanging Together (Was: christian dreams of murder...)

[Deborah Harrell]

The 'slippery slope' argument: One of the practical
problems of letting our government keep a bunch of
aliens, many of whom probably _are_ terrorists, in
unlimited offshores legal limbo is that some in power
will want to extend that 'option' to others, even 
American citizens.  They want to declare as a
'terrorist enemy combatant' anyone who endangers human
life -- which sounds rather reasonable, until you
realize that operating an automobile could be said to
'endanger human life.' 

Numbers: In 2001, 42,116 people died in car accidents,
with an estimated economic impact of over $230.568
billion (that's actually the 2000 figure for the
cost).  Alcohol is involved in roughly 40% of crashes
resulting in fatalities ("Alcohol involvement in fatal
crashes is NHTSA’s estimate of fatal crashes involving
either a driver or a non-occupant (pedestrian or
bicyclist) with a positive blood alcohol concentration
(BAC) of .01 g/dl or greater.").
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/STSI/State_Info.cfm?Year=2001&State=CO

[In 1997, "almost 40 percent of all traffic fatalities
were alcohol-related."  - I wanted to check my
interpretation of the graphs on the first site.]
http://osdbuweb.dot.gov/translink/may99/index1.htm

My point:  If we are not willing to give up our right
to engage in an obviously dangerous activity (two,
actually: driving, and drinking) to protect ourselves,
why should we give up our expectation that our
government treat all persons as having some degree of
'right to due process,' even if there is potential
danger in extending that 'right' to non-citizens?  I
am of course not comparing the viciousness of a
terrorist, whose goal is dead bodies, to a party
animal, whose goal is "fun" -- although that may also
lead to dead bodies.  Both are problems that must be
addressed, but holding the Gitmo-ees indefinitely,
without some legal proceedings, is like locking up a
swerving driver without getting a blood alcohol level
or looking for a dead animal by the roadside.

Some form of 'streamlined' legal process for the Gitmo
detainees is not unreasonable, but as pointed out in
_The Economist_ editorial re-posted today, "the
planned [military] commissions lack the one element
indispensable to any genuinely fair proceeding -- an
independent judiciary, both for the trial itself and
for any appeal against a conviction. The military
officers sitting as judges belong to a single chain of
command reporting to the secretary of defence and the
president, who will designate any accused for trial
before the commissions and will also hear any final
appeals. For years, America has rightly condemned the
use of similar military courts in other countries for
denying due process."

I'm not willing to stop driving my car, nor do I think
that forbidding alcohol consumption is reasonable,
although both might make my life safer#; leaving
another person in 'permanent limbo' does not seem
resonable to me either, and subjects our country to
justifiable criticism of hypocrisy and 'morals of
convenience.'  Examining selected containers arriving
on US shores, keeping up high-tech surveillance,
improving 'intelligence' with more agents on the
ground and coordinating inter-agency communication
(and even intra-agency) -- these seem logical and
likely to yield good results.  Allowing the
'Gitmo-ees' to become 'limbo martyrs' seems
counter-productive.

#But certainly more restricted; in addition, we know
what happened with Prohibition re: gangsters etc..  

Torture:  This is tough, because while I think that
torture *must be* kept illegal, if confronted with
someone [with a _very_ high degree of _proof_ of
actual involvement] who'd abducted my nieces or a
friend's children, and refused to tell their
whereabouts, I might well resort to physical violence
if threats didn't yield results.But even
under torture some will not break, or will tell false
information.  If I had to choose between living a
lifetime knowing that I'd 'devolved' to medieval
mentality and practices to try to save someone [I'm
supposing nightmares, guilt, self-loathing], or a
lifetime of remorse at not trying -- I'm guessing the
former.  May such a thing not come to pass.  <*avert*>

On a lighter note:
--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> "...We should all then, like the Quakers, live
> without an order of 
> priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle
> of conscience, and say 
> nothing about what no man can understand, nor
> therefore believe."
> Jefferson letter to John Adams, 1813 

Hmm, so I should change my sometime sig to "Heretic
Lutheran Deist With Overtones Of Quakerism Maru"?  :)
That's a little too long, I fear...

Debbi
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety."  -Ben Franklin

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[TomFODW]

> do you seriously think that it's easy to become
> the CEO of a major corporation?  These guys are (in
> general) like Major League Baseball players.
> Obviously there are exceptions, but most of the time,
> even the worst one is so much better at what he does
> than the average person that it's barely possible to
> even understand it.  That's true of almost any
> competitive system.  Professional athletes are so much
> more physically capable than you or I that they might
> as well be a different species.One reason GE has so
> convincingly outperformed other companies is its
> tradition of superb management.  Jack Welch and Jeff
> Immelt weren't chosen by accident, and their
> performance echoes it.
> 
> This isn't to say that all CEOs are competent -
> although I bet there isn't one in a Fortune 500
> company who couldn't do a better job than any person
> on this list (myself very much included) by a very
> large margin.  But the performance level involved is
> astonishingly high.
> 

I'm sorry, but this is just not possibly true. There is some skill involved 
in being a CEO along with a lot of experience. And there is no doubt some such 
thing as managerial talent, although I doubt it can be measured by any 
objective standard the way one can measure the speed of a fastball or time a wide 
receiver in a 40 yard dash. But it's just not the same thing Too much about a 
CEO's performance has to be inferred (stock price, etc.), and the fact that so 
much of their compensation is set by committees that are often hand-picked by 
the CEO, and that they often serve on each other's boards - there's just too 
much asskissing in business, that it practically becomes a tautology: how do you 
know he's a good CEO? Because his company is successful. 

GE is a very rare example of a company that is clearly successful because of 
its CEO - although you would not have wanted to work for RCA Astrospace when 
GE bought it, because they damn near ruined the company (remember the Mars 
Observer disaster?) 

Most CEOs get their job because they were successful timeservers who rose 
through the ranks. They may be intelligent, know their business, be good 
managers, etc., but few of them show any real spark of brilliance - because few of 
anyone shows any real spark of brilliance. The difference between, say, Norm 
Augustine (who ruined Martin Marietta Astrospace after Lockheed bought it out) and 
Michael Jordan is, there's really only one Michael Jordan. There's quite a 
few people who could approximate Norm Augustine. True talent is very very rare. 
There are plenty of business leaders who are good at what they do but are not 
truly talented in the sense that Baryshnikov or Stephen King or Mary-Chapin 
Carpenter or Joe Montana is. Let's not confuse the issue. They get overpaid 
because they control to a large extent the system that sets their pay. And they 
vote Republican because they figure that's the best way for them to continue to 
receive and retain their undeserved largesse. They're selfishly voting in 
their own personal interest. If they want to do that, fine, but let's not dignify 
it by calling it some great principle. 



Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.


> --- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In
> regards to CEOs voting republican, perhaps they
> > just know where their
> > bread is buttered.
> >
> > I doubt Jack Welch could do my job.
> > Your job maybe, but not Eriks or Dans.
> > CEOs are not superior versions of mainline humans,
> > they are simply
> > specialists performing a specific function.
> > And outside of their specialty, they are incompetent
> > in the same way any
> > other human would be.
> >
> > xponent
> > Not Impressed By Elitist Type Arguments Maru
> > rob
>
> It's not really an elitist type argument.  I remember
> Michael Wilbon writing about Michael Jordan that what
> made watching him truly special was that he was better
> at what he did than anyone else in the world was at
> what they did.  I don't know that was really the case
> - although given how great Jordan was, I'm not willing
> to reject it out of hand.
>
> What we're talking about here is relative skill level.
>  The question is, is someone who is good enough to get
> to where they are likely to be really, really good at
> what they do?  Again, look at professional baseball
> players.  To play in the major leagues you have to be
> one of the ~1000 best baseball players _in the world_.
>  And there are tens of millions of people who have at
> least, at some point in their lives, tried to play
> baseball.  So out of all of those tens of millions of
> people, MLB players are in the top _1000_.  That's
> incredibly good.  Now, outside of baseball, are they
> likely to be any better at anything (non-athletic)
> than you or I?  No, of course not.  But to be one of
> the top, what, one-hundredth of one percent of the
> people who engage in an activity - think about how
> gifted you have to be to reach that level.  On the
> whole, I have noticed, people don't appreciate that
> sort of skill level outside of their own profession.
> They look at baseball players and think that looks
> easy.  Or see the mistake made by a CEO and think any
> idiot would have known not to do that.  But I don't
> think so - not even close.

I don't know that much about CEO's, but I am fairly familiar with the next
level down.  In the company I worked for, people who got to very high
levels of the leadership team were very very good at playing company
politics.  They were not good at making decision to benefit the company.
But, that wasn't critical, because their bonus did not depend on doing well
by the shareholders; it depended on how well they played politics.

We had a good 'ol boy who based his hole corporate strategy on some "inside
information" that he got from a friend.  The "inside information" was
basically physically impossible, but he made the decisions that helped cut
market share from 45% to 28% based on that.

Another two fellows I know were corporate VPs of New Technology and were
pure BS artists who knew nothing of technology.

Its not that I believe that running corporations is easy; its not.  Its
that I've seen the selection process at large corporations; chatted with
folks who are up at that level, and their knowledge and ability doesn't
blow me away.  It seems that the most important skill is not management,
but playing company politics.

The obvious exception to this that I've seen are start ups that grow big.
I knew the man who invented the MWD industry and he impressed me.  The
feats of someone like Bill Gates or Sam Walmat also impressed me.  But the
leadership team at my last company didn't.

Dan M.


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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- Robert Seeberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In
regards to CEOs voting republican, perhaps they
> just know where their
> bread is buttered.
> 
> I doubt Jack Welch could do my job.
> Your job maybe, but not Eriks or Dans.
> CEOs are not superior versions of mainline humans,
> they are simply
> specialists performing a specific function.
> And outside of their specialty, they are incompetent
> in the same way any
> other human would be.
> 
> xponent
> Not Impressed By Elitist Type Arguments Maru
> rob

It's not really an elitist type argument.  I remember
Michael Wilbon writing about Michael Jordan that what
made watching him truly special was that he was better
at what he did than anyone else in the world was at
what they did.  I don't know that was really the case
- although given how great Jordan was, I'm not willing
to reject it out of hand.

What we're talking about here is relative skill level.
 The question is, is someone who is good enough to get
to where they are likely to be really, really good at
what they do?  Again, look at professional baseball
players.  To play in the major leagues you have to be
one of the ~1000 best baseball players _in the world_.
 And there are tens of millions of people who have at
least, at some point in their lives, tried to play
baseball.  So out of all of those tens of millions of
people, MLB players are in the top _1000_.  That's
incredibly good.  Now, outside of baseball, are they
likely to be any better at anything (non-athletic)
than you or I?  No, of course not.  But to be one of
the top, what, one-hundredth of one percent of the
people who engage in an activity - think about how
gifted you have to be to reach that level.  On the
whole, I have noticed, people don't appreciate that
sort of skill level outside of their own profession. 
They look at baseball players and think that looks
easy.  Or see the mistake made by a CEO and think any
idiot would have known not to do that.  But I don't
think so - not even close.  

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.


>
> This isn't to say that all CEOs are competent -
> although I bet there isn't one in a Fortune 500
> company who couldn't do a better job than any person
> on this list (myself very much included) by a very
> large margin.  But the performance level involved is
> astonishingly high.
>

In regards to CEOs voting republican, perhaps they just know where their
bread is buttered.

I doubt Jack Welch could do my job.
Your job maybe, but not Eriks or Dans.
CEOs are not superior versions of mainline humans, they are simply
specialists performing a specific function.
And outside of their specialty, they are incompetent in the same way any
other human would be.

xponent
Not Impressed By Elitist Type Arguments Maru
rob


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RE: christian dreams of murder...

[ritu]

Gautam Mukunda wrote:

> --- ritu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Oh, go ahead. If there are any factual errors in
> > your commentary, I'll
> > chime in with corrections; otherwise, I'll chime in
> > with my opinions.
> > Unlike you, I do not feel bound to insist that
> > everything ever done by
> > my country's government [or, to be more precise, a
> > govt. formed by a
> > party I support] was a good idea or a humanitarian
> > one. Or that if they
> > messed up incredibly, they were 'forced' into doing
> > so by bad, mean,
> > nasty 'others'.
> > 
> > Ritu
> 
> Oddly enough, I am. 

I'm afraid I don't quite understand. You are...?

> Apparently alone among me, Erik,
> and you, though, I've actually spent some time
> thinking about this issue. 

No, I have spent years thinking about this problem, ever since I became
aware of the way suspected terrorists were treated by my government.

> Erik's probably not
> capable of it, but I would appreciate it if you
> actually tried to answer my arguments instead of
> making accusations like this.

We can agree to disagree about Erik's capabilities. But Gautam, I have
been answering your arguments - if I'm not mistaken, you are the one
who's not answering my arguments. Secondly, what I said above was not in
response to an argument but a question I interpreted as a dig,
especially given the context of that particular conversation.

Still, the last two sentences of what I *did* say were both rude and
unnecessary and I regret saying them. Fwiw, you have my apologies.

Ritu, who was rather cranky last night


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Re: Sick Six Sigma?

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 10:35 PM 11/16/03 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>As Of This Month I've Been Waiting 22 Years For A "Cure" Or At Least An
>Effective Treatment Maru
>-- Ronn!  :)
For?

Dee
(shortest post ever for me :-)


CFS

Equally Brief Response Maru



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Christian dreams of Mulder

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 8:46:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Christian Slater has fantasies about Fox Mulder?!!! 
>  Or are you insinuating some sort of UFO connection in
>  the vein of _God Drives A Flying Saucer_?   ;)

Beter Slater than never.

Or watch Dior as you make a quick exit?

William Taylor
-
Playing Fletcher with your dogma.
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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> OK I was joking about the competence but I would
> wager dimes to donuts that competence and capability
> are quite common in skilled laborers social workers
> public defense lawyers and union organizers. The
> point is that CEOs are republicans because
> republicans represent the interests of business and
> wealthy individuals 

The point, btw, is not that competence and such are
not found in social workers.  There are some great
athletes who are not professional.  But I doubt there
are many professional-caliber athletes who are not
professionals - it's just too hard, and the rewards of
turning pro are too high.  Similarly with CEOs.  If
you're good enough at management to manage a Fortune
500 company, that's probably what you _are_ doing -
that or working in a place of similar responsibility
(the government, for example).  Social workers don't
face the same sort of Darwinian pressures.  The very
best lawyers might.  The problem is that you can't
compare CEOs to all lawyers - it's not as if CEO is a
profession.  CEO is the culmination of a profession. 
Peter Angelos is on the same tier, but do you think
that the same level of ability is in your average (not
exceptional, but average) public defender?  I don't.  

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> OK I was joking about the competence but I would
> wager dimes to donuts that competence and capability
> are quite common in skilled laborers social workers
> public defense lawyers and union organizers. The
> point is that CEOs are republicans because
> republicans represent the interests of business and
> wealthy individuals 

Bob, do you really believe that?  You're a really
smart guy.  I don't believe that your politics are so
narrow that you think things are that simple.  Do you
honestly deny the validity of politics different than
your own?  I disagree with you.  Am I only interested
in the interests of business and wealthy individuals? 
Do you really reject even the possibility of honest
differences in policies?  

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Doug Pensinger]

Dan Minette wrote:


I was evaluating this in terms of what you have said earlier is that 
things
like human rights, morality, etc. comes from evolution. In other words, I
was taking what you wrote in the context of your earlier writings.
I never said that they come from evolution, I said that they evolved.  The 
two ideas are not even directly related, so it appears as if you were just 
looking to take a potshot at my personal philosophy.

Jefferson was a very complex man.
Yes he was.  And I have absolutely no doubt that he would have no problem 
in interpreting his reference to a creator as I wish to.  He said:

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or 
admit the right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others."  -- 
Letter to Edward Dawse, 1803

He clearly believed in God, and the reference to self evident

a creator is, I assume
He clearly believed that people have the right to believe what they want 
to, and to me the term creator is clearly ambiguous.  He could have made 
it unambiguous by saying God instead of creator, he did not.

--
Doug
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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 10:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Where is the evidence that CEOs are capable or
> > competent? Could it be that CEOs are rich and
> > powerful and that rich and powerful people vote
> > republican

OK I was joking about the competence but I would wager dimes to donuts that competence 
and capability are quite common in skilled laborers social workers public defense 
lawyers and union organizers. The point is that CEOs are republicans because 
republicans represent the interests of business and wealthy individuals 
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Re: Christian dreams of Mulder

[Jon Gabriel]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Christian dreams of Mulder
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:11:32 EST
In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Subj:  Is it just me?
>  Date:11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>  From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John D. Giorgis)
>  Sender:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Killer Bs Discussion)
>  To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>  ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>
>  Thanks.
>
>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at 
one
>  point or another.

One.
How very uh... Fox-y of you.

Jon

Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com

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Re: [Scouted] Hip Replacement Surgery - An Outpatient Procedure

[Kanandarqu]

Debbie posted
re- mini-incision hip replacements
>technique is also proving to be virtually pain-free in
>many patients and results in less surgery blood loss
>and less chance of post-operation blood clots. It also
>reduces or eliminates months of grueling
>rehabilitation therapy and is proving to drastically
>cut the risk of later chance of limping...
>
>"...And since months of the rehabilitation process can
>cost $20,000 or more per patient, and many getting hip
>replacement surgery are on Medicare, by reducing that
>rehabilitation to days or eliminating it altogether,
>the health-care system can save billions of dollars a
>year..."

Way cool.  Most of the time the procedures aren't the 
limitation for quick recovery, it is the tissue trauma.
(Even for a knee arthroscopy the camera follows
a metal object that looks like a dull pencil that
pushes into the tissue).  This would minimize alot of 
muscle cutting and bleeding- like they said).  The 
replacement "parts" themselves are the biggest 
limitation.  

The "average" person doesn't need "months" of 
therapy costing $20,000.  Thanks to CMS there 
is a $1590 cap on non-hospital outpatient rehab 
and that covers many people (who hopefully don't
get any other injuries in that calendar year.  
(There are always people who have are really 
medically involved and need to stay at a
rehab hospital I suppose.)

Total hips increase the quality of life for so
many people it will be great if we can make
it "easier" for people (and less life threatening).
Now if we can just get them to last more
than 20-25 years.

Dee
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Re: Farscape

[Jon Gabriel]

From: William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Brin-L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Farscape
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:18:34 +
As reported in another place, there is apparently going to be a mini-series 
to wrap it up...

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=16501

Yes  Thank you for making my night!

:-D

Jon

Le Blog:  http://zarq.livejournal.com

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Sick Six Sigma?

[Kanandarqu]

>As Of This Month I've Been Waiting 22 Years For A "Cure" Or At Least An 
>Effective Treatment Maru
>-- Ronn!  :)

For?

Dee
(shortest post ever for me :-)
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Re: Christian dreams of Mulder

[Deborah Harrell]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 

> >  Please folks, let's change the title of this
> discussion.
> 
> One.

Christian Slater has fantasies about Fox Mulder?!!! 
Or are you insinuating some sort of UFO connection in
the vein of _God Drives A Flying Saucer_?   ;)

Beneath The Planet Of The Apes Maru

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Re: [Scouted] Hip Replacement Surgery - An Outpatient Procedure

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 06:42 PM 11/16/03 -0800, you wrote:
The trend towards 'surgery through smaller and smaller
incisions' now includes an orthopedic procedure:
http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/77/90340.htm?printing=true
"...The Zimmer Minimally Invasive Solutions 2-Incision
technique allows surgeons to install the same
artificial hip joint through two small incisions --
each no more than 2 inches long -- rather than the
traditional single incision between 4 and 12 inches
long. By doing this with new smaller surgical
instruments designed by Berger, an MIT-trained
mechanical engineer-turned-surgeon, those who perform
hip replacement surgery can now operate between
muscles, tendons, and ligaments rather than cutting
through these soft tissues...
"...With this technique, first performed in February
2001, nearly 90% of patients leave the hospital the
day of or day after their hip replacement surgery,
instead of the traditional weeklong stay. The
technique is also proving to be virtually pain-free in
many patients and results in less surgery blood loss
and less chance of post-operation blood clots. It also
reduces or eliminates months of grueling
rehabilitation therapy and is proving to drastically
cut the risk of later chance of limping...
"...And since months of the rehabilitation process can
cost $20,000 or more per patient, and many getting hip
replacement surgery are on Medicare, by reducing that
rehabilitation to days or eliminating it altogether,
the health-care system can save billions of dollars a
year..."
Like its endoscopic predecessors, this minimizing
technique demands a higher level of expertise from the
surgeon, and similarly is not appropriate for everyone
(muscle-bound or very obese, in this case).  I suspect
that there will be a small number of cases that must
be 'turned into' a conventional hip replacement, just
as, because of complicating factors, some endoscopic
cholecystectomies have to be converted to a full
laparotomy for removal of the gallbladder.
It's not in PubMed yet.

Debbi


Been nice if they'd discovered it a quarter of a century earlier, before my 
mother had both of them replaced, after all else she had gone through with 
her back and hips and all after the chimney fell on top of the bed she had 
gotten under when the tornado hit their house when she was about twelve 
years old . . .



-- Ronn!  :)

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 07:01 PM 11/16/03 -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Where is the evidence that CEOs are capable or
> competent? Could it be that CEOs are rich and
> powerful and that rich and powerful people vote
> republican?
Bob, do you seriously think that it's easy to become
the CEO of a major corporation?  These guys are (in
general) like Major League Baseball players.
Obviously there are exceptions, but most of the time,
even the worst one is so much better at what he does
than the average person that it's barely possible to
even understand it.  That's true of almost any
competitive system.  Professional athletes are so much
more physically capable than you or I that they might
as well be a different species.
An example.  My roommate in college was a safety on
the Harvard football team.  This is a big long way
from the pros, and safety is not a strength position.
I've been a serious weight lifter for four years now -
I have some idea of what is involved, and I'm a pretty
strong guy compared to the average person.  But
Michael (my roommate) could bench 315 lbs and squat
550.  Do you know what that looks like?  The bar
_bends over your back_ at 550 lbs.  The difference
between Michael and a real professional athlete is
basically equivalent to the difference between him and
me.  Do you think it's _easier_ to become a CEO of,
say, GE, than it is to be a professional athlete?  I
would argue that it is much more difficult, and it's
not a random process.  One reason GE has so
convincingly outperformed other companies is its
tradition of superb management.  Jack Welch and Jeff
Immelt weren't chosen by accident, and their
performance echoes it.
This isn't to say that all CEOs are competent -
although I bet there isn't one in a Fortune 500
company who couldn't do a better job than any person
on this list (myself very much included) by a very
large margin.  But the performance level involved is
astonishingly high.


I think the problem some have is that so many CEOs have recently been 
involved in criminal activity.

But for that matter, so have many professional sports figures . . .



-- Ronn!  :)

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[Listref] Stem cell therapy - some preliminary results

[Deborah Harrell]

As noted previously, oligo- and multipotent stem cells
are present in many adult tissues (as opposed to
omnipotent embryonic blastocyst cells**); treatments
for Type I diabetes ("autoimmune") and damaged heart
muscle have been devised using these types of cells.

http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/76/90334.htm?printing=true
"...The researchers hit on a way to regenerate the
insulin-making islets in the pancreas that function in
response to blood sugars.  "We have found that it is
possible to rapidly regrow islets from adult precursor
cells, something that many thought could not be done,"
Faustman says in a news release. "By accomplishing
effective, robust, and durable islet regeneration,
this discovery opens up an entirely new approach to
diabetes treatment."  [Pancreatic islet cells are the
insulin-secreting ones, which are attacked and
destroyed by T-cells in this mouse model.] 

"...Somehow, their [the diabetic mice in this study] 
islet cells regenerated themselves.  Further study
showed that the spleen-cell injections didn't just
retrain the animals' immune systems. They did two
other things: The spleen cells triggered
self-regeneration of islets.  Some of the spleen cells
themselves became part of the new islets..." 

While this particular study isn't in PubMed yet,
searching with <> yields 67 hits...

Damaged heart muscle, once thought to be
irreplaceable, has since been shown to have some
regenerative potential [I think it was the post-mortem
finding of *opposite-gendered* cardiac cells in heart
transplant recipients that suggested cardiac stem
cells existed somewhere in the body].  Bone marrow and
cells extracted from blood (umbilical cord blood is
particularly rich in various stem cells) have been
used to repair at least some of the damaged
myocardium.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/new/press/01-06-06.htm
"Challenging one of medicine's long-standing beliefs,
a team of scientists funded by the National Heart,
Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI) and the National
Institute on Aging (NIA) has found the strongest
evidence to date that human heart muscle cells
regenerate after a heart attack..."There are
preliminary indications that primitive cells like stem
cells exist in the human heart. Stem cells may have
the ability to develop into the various cardiac cell
types and form new healthy functioning myocardium. If
we can prove the existence of cardiac stem cells and
make these cells migrate to the region of tissue
damage, we could conceivably improve the repair of
damaged heart muscle and reduce heart failure," says
Anversa. 

"Research on animal models supports this
possibility...
the Anversa team and a colleague at the NIH reported
that adult stem cells isolated from mouse bone and
injected into a damaged mouse heart became functioning
heart muscle by developing into myocytes and coronary
vessels. Moreover, the newly formed tissue partially
restored the heart's ability to pump blood..."
[This is a 2001 press release.]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/991642.asp?0sl=-23
"GERMAN RESEARCHERS showed that cells taken from the
bone marrow and washed into the heart soon after heart
attack helped patients recover better than patients
given standard care...Dr. Ray Gibbons of the Mayo
Clinic in Rochester, Minn., said a 6.7 percent
improvement could be enough to tip a patient over from
questionable survival to long-term survival...

"...Dr. Emerson Perin and colleagues at Baylor College
of Medicine and the University of Texas Health Science
Center in Houston injected a certain type of stem cell
called CD34 cells directly into the hearts of heart
failure patients.  All could later exercise — after
being barely able to walk around their homes. “They’re
functional and they have their lives back,” Perin
said.
Five patients who were waiting for heart transplants
are now off the transplant list..."
[A 2003 report.]

This report, from a diagnostic equipment company, goes
into a little more detail on how stem cells are
extracted from adult blood, as well as discussing
another stem cell heart repair trial:
http://www.coulter.com/resourcecenter/diagtoday/articles/features/huntermedical.asp?pf=1

Debbi

**Many adult stem cells are already partially
differentiated, so that one might be able to become a
bone or cartilege cell, frex, but not a neuron; some
of their "potentiating" genes have been permanently
'turned off.'  Of course, with research, it might be
possible to 'regressify the cell,' so that it in fact
becomes an embryonic stem cell.  However, the problem
of shortened chromosome ends - which is likely one of
the difficulties with animals cloned from adult cells
- will have to be rectified.

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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Where is the evidence that CEOs are capable or
> competent? Could it be that CEOs are rich and
> powerful and that rich and powerful people vote
> republican?

Bob, do you seriously think that it's easy to become
the CEO of a major corporation?  These guys are (in
general) like Major League Baseball players. 
Obviously there are exceptions, but most of the time,
even the worst one is so much better at what he does
than the average person that it's barely possible to
even understand it.  That's true of almost any
competitive system.  Professional athletes are so much
more physically capable than you or I that they might
as well be a different species.

An example.  My roommate in college was a safety on
the Harvard football team.  This is a big long way
from the pros, and safety is not a strength position. 
I've been a serious weight lifter for four years now -
I have some idea of what is involved, and I'm a pretty
strong guy compared to the average person.  But
Michael (my roommate) could bench 315 lbs and squat
550.  Do you know what that looks like?  The bar
_bends over your back_ at 550 lbs.  The difference
between Michael and a real professional athlete is
basically equivalent to the difference between him and
me.  Do you think it's _easier_ to become a CEO of,
say, GE, than it is to be a professional athlete?  I
would argue that it is much more difficult, and it's
not a random process.  One reason GE has so
convincingly outperformed other companies is its
tradition of superb management.  Jack Welch and Jeff
Immelt weren't chosen by accident, and their
performance echoes it.

This isn't to say that all CEOs are competent -
although I bet there isn't one in a Fortune 500
company who couldn't do a better job than any person
on this list (myself very much included) by a very
large margin.  But the performance level involved is
astonishingly high.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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[Scouted] Hip Replacement Surgery - An Outpatient Procedure

[Deborah Harrell]

The trend towards 'surgery through smaller and smaller
incisions' now includes an orthopedic procedure:

http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/77/90340.htm?printing=true
"...The Zimmer Minimally Invasive Solutions 2-Incision
technique allows surgeons to install the same
artificial hip joint through two small incisions --
each no more than 2 inches long -- rather than the
traditional single incision between 4 and 12 inches
long. By doing this with new smaller surgical
instruments designed by Berger, an MIT-trained
mechanical engineer-turned-surgeon, those who perform
hip replacement surgery can now operate between
muscles, tendons, and ligaments rather than cutting
through these soft tissues...

"...With this technique, first performed in February
2001, nearly 90% of patients leave the hospital the
day of or day after their hip replacement surgery,
instead of the traditional weeklong stay. The
technique is also proving to be virtually pain-free in
many patients and results in less surgery blood loss
and less chance of post-operation blood clots. It also
reduces or eliminates months of grueling
rehabilitation therapy and is proving to drastically
cut the risk of later chance of limping...

"...And since months of the rehabilitation process can
cost $20,000 or more per patient, and many getting hip
replacement surgery are on Medicare, by reducing that
rehabilitation to days or eliminating it altogether,
the health-care system can save billions of dollars a
year..."

Like its endoscopic predecessors, this minimizing
technique demands a higher level of expertise from the
surgeon, and similarly is not appropriate for everyone
(muscle-bound or very obese, in this case).  I suspect
that there will be a small number of cases that must 
be 'turned into' a conventional hip replacement, just
as, because of complicating factors, some endoscopic
cholecystectomies have to be converted to a full
laparotomy for removal of the gallbladder.

It's not in PubMed yet.

Debbi

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androids dream of sheep

[Kevin Tarr]

At 07:44 PM 11/16/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> From: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> At 04:33 PM 11/15/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> > I would also point out that half of Washington has known
> >Valerie Plame was a CIA agent for years, so it's not
> >as if it's a major security breach either.  None of
> >this, of course, came out in the press.
>
> Indeed, I am sure that the intelligence services of the rest
> of the world
> were *shocked*,  shocked I tell you, to learn that the wife of an
> ambassador was a spy.
What I find so wonderfully hypocritical about this attitude is that
if this had happened under the Clinton Administration every
conservative in the country would be calling for Clinton's head or
blaming Hillary or something.  They would tie it into Whitewater
somehow.  And say it was another case of the Clinton's using their
power to get back at someone who disagreed with them!
  - jmh


But the left isn't doing that? (joking)

I just thought the answer is that it is not true, that Wilson himself blew 
this up as a Big Deal, but the news people see it isn't. That it's more 
along the lines of the "Clinton has had people killed" line of stories, 
interesting to those who want to believe it, but factually false.

Are we to assume that Novak calling the CIA asking for confirmation is a 
lie? There is the obvious rebuttal, that the CIA can't oust it's own agent, 
but it reads like Novak would have dropped it if there was a problem.

How about Wilson saying the problem was in using her maiden name Palme, but 
his own website listed it? Again there are the obvious replies.

I know the Pres had said he'll get to the bottom of it, but nothing has 
happened. (Other than that wonderful leaked story about him demanding the 
leaks stop). I always wondered: aren't all phone calls recorded? Maybe it's 
only incoming calls, but I thought Gore was knocked about back in '95 
because he was making campaign calls from the Old Executive Building, which 
was illegal. So at the worst, can't they tell where the phone calls Novak 
received came from, what the originating phone number was?

Kevin T. - VRWC
time for bed
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Re: "So a Christian, a Moslem, and a Buddhist walk into a Bar Mitzvah .."

[Julia Thompson]

That reminds me of the wedding reception for a Catholic wedding I went to
that was held at a place that had a lot of function rooms, and there was
at least one Bar Mitzvah party at the same place that day.  I was in the 
rest room with some relatives of the young man having one party at one 
point.

The dance floor of the room the wedding reception had was under some 
pretty glass hanging just under the lights.  It was wonderful, until the 
bride threw the bouquet, threw it a bit too high, and broke some of the 
dangly glass.

The staff came in and professionally swept up the broken bits, and then 
reassured the bride with a, "Oh, that's OK, it happens all the time."

So, why don't they WARN the brides having their wedding receptions there?

Julia

who saw it coming about 5 seconds before it happened, which was too late 
to get the bride's attention, and who tossed her *own* bouquet too hard 
into acoustic ceiling tile on the second attempt (first attempt was too 
far over everyone's heads)

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Re: Is it just me?

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>  
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.

P.S. I haven't been reading messages with this title.

William Taylor
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Re: Week 11 Picks

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: Week 11 Picks


>
> Houston at Buffalo - This game is a lot like the Redskins game for the
> Bills.The Texans have no defensive tackles to speak of, and are better
> passing than running the ball.   That plays right into Buffalo's
strengths,
> and even if Eric Moulds does not play, they should run away with this one.
> Pick: BILLS
>

One of the weirdest first halves I have seen.

Neither team is playing as well as expected.

The Bills knock David Carr out of the game on a safety and score 2.

Then the Bills miss 2 quite easy field goals before making one to make the
score 5 - 0 for the Bills.

The Texans were unable to get much going.

Very late in the half the Texans  score a TD, but do not get the 2 point
conversion under questionable circumstances. (TV replay is from a bad angle,
but even there it appears that the carrier crossed the plane before being
driven back. It was called inconclusive and I have to agree considering the
angle that was shown and how the rules work.)

At the half it is Texans 6 - 5 over the Bills.

A confounding game, considering that the Bills were dominant in every phase
of the game except special teams where the results were somewhat even.

I expect the Bills to pull it out, but *that* was one strange half a game!

xponent
Rooting For My Team In Any Case Maru
rob


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"So a Christian, a Moslem, and a Buddhist walk into a Bar Mitzvah .."

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Subj:  Is it just me?
>  Date:11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>  From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John D. Giorgis)
>  Sender:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Killer Bs Discussion)
>  To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>  ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>  
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>  
>  Thanks.
>  
>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
>  point or another.

Five.

"So a Christian, a Moslem, and a Buddhist walk into a Bar Mitzvah .."

(Just in case your title gets cut short.)

That should be enough.

William Taylor

Back to more usual nonsense.


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"Will someone rid me of this mediocre piece?"

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Subj:  Is it just me?
>  Date:11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>  From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John D. Giorgis)
>  Sender:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Killer Bs Discussion)
>  To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>  ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>  
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>  
>  Thanks.
>  
>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
>  point or another.

Four.

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Re: Christian dreams of Mulder

[Alberto Monteiro]

William Taylor wrote:
>
>>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
>>  point or another.
>
> One.
>
Mulder was not a Christian. I think he was something like
a Spiritist [is there such a word in English?] - who was the
One and True Religion in the X-Files Universe :-)

Alberto Monteiro

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"This is my in-box."

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Subj:  Is it just me?
>  Date:11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>  From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John D. Giorgis)
>  Sender:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Killer Bs Discussion)
>  To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>  ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>  
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>  
>  Thanks.
>  
>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
>  point or another.


Three.

(From Amal and the Night Visitors.)
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Do Christian Anroids Drean of Transistor-substantiation?

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Subj:  Is it just me?
>  Date:11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>  From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John D. Giorgis)
>  Sender:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Killer Bs Discussion)
>  To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>  ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>  
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>  
>  Thanks.
>  
>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
>  point or another.


Two.
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Christian dreams of Mulder

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Subj:  Is it just me?
>  Date:11/16/2003 6:25:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time
>  From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John D. Giorgis)
>  Sender:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  Reply-to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Killer Bs Discussion)
>  To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>  ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
>  dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>  
>  Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.
>  
>  Thanks.
>  
>  JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
>  point or another.

One.
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Alberto Monteiro]

Robert J. Chassell wrote:
>
>  In 2003, the US does not continue to hold
> any WWII German prisoners of war.
>
But only because they all died, otherwise I bet
Rudolf Hess would still be in jail.

Alberto Monteiro

PS: oops, now I guess someone will call me a n***.

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christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Alberto Monteiro]

John D. Giorgiswrote:
>
> ...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
> dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??
>
I don't O:-)

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Erik Reuter]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 08:49:22AM -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:

> Oddly enough, I am.  Apparently alone among me, Erik, and you, though,
> I've actually spent some time thinking about this issue.  Erik's
> probably not capable of it, but I would appreciate it if you actually
> tried to answer my arguments instead of making accusations like this.

Yes, Gautam, you're the only one who thinks. You're so thoughtful. With
all that thinking, it is too bad you can't come up with anything better
than "I was forced to take away their rights because I'm afraid and
they're not like me and they might HURT me!".


-- 
Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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RE: christian dreams of murder...

[Horn, John]

> From: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> At 04:33 PM 11/15/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> > I would also point out that half of Washington has known
> >Valerie Plame was a CIA agent for years, so it's not
> >as if it's a major security breach either.  None of
> >this, of course, came out in the press.
> 
> Indeed, I am sure that the intelligence services of the rest 
> of the world
> were *shocked*,  shocked I tell you, to learn that the wife of an
> ambassador was a spy.

What I find so wonderfully hypocritical about this attitude is that
if this had happened under the Clinton Administration every
conservative in the country would be calling for Clinton's head or
blaming Hillary or something.  They would tie it into Whitewater
somehow.  And say it was another case of the Clinton's using their
power to get back at someone who disagreed with them!

  - jmh
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RE: Explanation

[Horn, John]

> From: Alberto Monteiro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Steve Sloan II wrote:
> >
> > > I heard that Hubberd made up Scientology as a scam to make
> > > lots of money, and didn't really believe at all. Does anyone
> > > know how accurate/inaccurate this is?
> >
> > I remember reading somewhere that Hubbard made a bet with
another
> > SF writer about it. He bet that he could create a false religion
> > to make money, "like psychology", not long before Scientology
> > started. I wish I knew where I read it, though.
> >
> It doesn't make sense: if he believed that the new scam would
> make him rich, there was no need to bet - unless he did
> sometime make public that the whole thing was a scam.

Harlan Ellison has, at various times, claimed he was there when
Hubbard made the statement and made up Scientology.  I'm not sure if
he was the one who the bet was made with or not.

 - jmh
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Robert J. Chassell]

--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes and no.  I've seen Rumsfeld state that no trials are
> neededthey can be held indefinately without trial until the
> war on terror ends. The problems with this, compared to a war
> like WWII, are obvious I think.

To which Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> responded:

And this is a real issue. 

We're probably going to end up with something like mental health
hearings - like John Hinckley, we're going to have to decide, at
some point, if they're still a danger or not. 

Right.  World War II ended, a peace treaty was written, and the
prisoners were released.  In 2003, the US does not continue to hold
any WWII German prisoners of war.

As you and Dan point out, the same cannot be done in a war against a
non-state entity.

So the question becomes one of governance.

Do we follow US tradition and have people from a different branch of
government make the decisions?  Or do we go against tradition and have
people in the same branch make the decisions?

As far as I can see, the Founders of the US were wise to establish
three branches of government.  Certainly, it is not perfect, but it
does provide a governance methodology that is more likely to persuade
others -- especially foreigners, who are key in this issue -- that the
US behaves justly.  Otherwise, the US gives the impression it behaves
as injustly as one of the Arab tyrants that Osama bin Laden is
against.

-- 
Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises
http://www.rattlesnake.com  GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But, you just said that you preferred military
> justice.  So is your
> position also in opposition to the governments, and
> are you willing to take
> the risk of a military court setting AQ operatives
> free?

> Dan M.

Eventually, yes.  I'd like to see the government set a
time limit (I would accept a quite long one, as long
as there is one) on how long we can hold people before
they establish the tribunal, and then actually run
them.  I think the problem with that is that the
tribunals will actually draw much more international
criticism than simply holding people, so the
Administration is (understandably) reluctant to launch
them.

The problem is that from what we know about Al Qaeda,
most (not all, almost certainly) of the people there
are incredibly dangerous, in a way that normal
criminals simply are not.  We normally say (I believe
quoting Thomas Jefferson) that it's better to let 10
guilty men go free than keep one innocent man in jail.
 The problem in this situation is that, given the
scale of the threat involved, _that's not true in this
situation_.  Another way to look at that is, would you
let 100 guilty men free before putting one innocent
man in jail?  1000?  10,000?  At some point you have
to put a limit.  We have a criminal justice system,
after all.  It is a numerical certainty that there are
some number of innocent men in jail in American
prisons right now.  The only way to ensure that is not
the case is to release every single one of them. 
Anyone want to do that?  No?  Then we need to think,
not emote.  Everyone in Guantanamo Bay is suspected of
being the most dangerous type of person imaginable -
far more dangerous than a serial killer.  Most of
them, it is fair to presume, are correctly identified
this way (we didn't put every person we captured in
Afghanistan there - in fact, there are only a few
hundred people there and we captured thousands in
Afghanistan and could have captured thousands more had
we chosen to, so it's only a small fraction, and the
sorting presumably was not random).  Some of them are
people who had the exceptional bad luck to be in the
wrong place at the wrong time.  Some (hopefully all,
but there's no way to know, and no system is likely to
do that perfectly) of those people have already been
released.  

We need the tribunals for two reasons.  The first
because it seems clear to me that not everyone in
Guantanamo had anything to do with Al Qaeda - although
the government seems already to have released several
people, so it seems likely that those released were
the ones who just got vacuumed up in the initial
sweep.  But we need to filter them out.  The second is
that it is the only way to have some semblance of due
process for the rest of those captured.  But we
shouldn't kid ourselves about the way the tribunals
will work.  The judge, jury, and _defense attorney_
will all be US military officers.  Most of the
evidence used _will not be shown to the defendants_. 
The witnesses (if any) will be subject to
cross-examination if present, but most of them will
not be present, and most will not be identified to the
defendant.  Discussions between the defense attorney
and their client will not be confidential (although
those discussions will not be admissible in court). 
There probably won't be any rules of evidence that we
recognize from civilian courts.  Under those
circumstances, we'll basically be relying on the
fairness of the judge and jury to ensure a good
outcome.  Now, these are serving military officers who
will have sworn an oath to present fair and impartial
justice.  That's a very strong thing to rely upon -
I'm pretty confident that such a trial would do fairly
well.  But it won't be a civilian court.  The bias in
favor of the defendant wouldn't be nearly as high.

That would satisfy the confidentiality requirements
and still do a very good job of sorting the innocent
from the guilty.  That seems to me to be what the
government has in mind.  Eventually.  I understand
Rumsfeld's statement about holding people permanently,
and legally he's actually on pretty clear ground.  If
the Second World War had gone on indefinitely, that's
exactly what would have happened to POWs.  And, again,
people captured in Afghanistan have _fewer_ rights
than POWs.  They aren't protected by the Geneva
Conventions.  They're really not protected by anything
except the good graces of the American government.

The issue is demobilization.  We could release German
POWs after the war because Germany was demobilized. 
They would go back home to their families and live
relatively normal lives.  Al Qaeda hasn't even been
defeated yet, but eventually it will be.  Its members,
though, are never going to be demobilized.  They don't
need (heck, they don't have right now) formal
structures to continue to be dangerous.  This is an
entirely new problem.  No one, so far as I am aware,
has dealt with anything much like this under a
democratic framew

Is it just me?

[John D. Giorgis]

...or is there anyone else who feels a little sick to read "christian
dreams of murder" 20-30 teams in his Brin-Inbox??

Please folks, let's change the title of this discussion.

Thanks.

JDG - Who guesses that he probably contibuted to this propogation at one
point or another.
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   "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, 
   it is God's gift to humanity." - George W. Bush 1/29/03
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 1:14:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> I don't understand how parents who without boundaries suceed.  I've seen
> plenty fail.  I've also seen parents fail who are very strict and
> controlling.  Finding the balance looks to be essential to 
> me.
There is some evidence that boundries are defined as much by the kids as the parents. 
There is a dance between parents and children. Some kids push and need limits so 
parents are strict. Some kids are cooperative and create their own boundries. What a 
parent does may be determined by the kid and not the other way around. 
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 8:05:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Indeed, I am sure that the intelligence services of the rest of the world
> were *shocked*,  shocked I tell you, to learn that the wife 
> of an
> ambassador was a spy.

When Clinton was being impeached JDG always claimed that the democrats condoned his 
behavior. In fact his behavior was condemned; but not felt to be an impeachable 
offense.

So I want one of you guys to say that this was a crime and whoever did it should be 
prosecuted. No more BS about everyone knew. Where is your absolute moralism in this 
instance. 
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Erik Reuter]

Since the issue of Britain's views on holding people prisoner without
fair trial came up, I thought I would repost an editorial I posted in
July from the British newspaper "The Economist". My impression (Britons,
correct me if I'm wrong) is that the editorial expresses the sentiment
of a majority of the British people and government on the issue.

***

Unjust, unwise, unAmerican
Jul 10th 2003
>From The Economist print edition


America's plan to set up military commissions for the trials of
terrorist suspects is a big mistake

You are taken prisoner in Afghanistan, bound and gagged, flown to the
other side of the world and then imprisoned for months in solitary
confinement punctuated by interrogations during which you have no
legal advice. Finally, you are told what is to be your fate: a trial
before a panel of military officers. Your defence lawyer will also be
a military officer, and anything you say to him can be recorded. Your
trial might be held in secret. You might not be told all the evidence
against you. You might be sentenced to death. If you are convicted, you
can appeal, but only to yet another panel of military officers. Your
ultimate right of appeal is not to a judge but to politicians who have
already called everyone in the prison where you are held 'killers' and
the 'worst of the worst'. Even if you are acquitted, or if your appeal
against conviction succeeds, you might not go free. Instead you could be
returned to your cell and held indefinitely as an 'enemy combatant'.

Sad to say, that is America's latest innovation in its war against
terrorism: justice by 'military commission'. Over-reaction to
the scourge of terrorism is nothing new, even in established
democracies. The British 'interned' Catholics in Northern Ireland
without trial; Israel still bulldozes the homes of families of suicide
bombers. Given the barbarism of September 11th, it is not surprising
that America should demand retribution.particularly against people
caught fighting for al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

This newspaper firmly supported George Bush's battles against the
Taliban and Saddam Hussein. We also believe that in some areas, such as
domestic intelligence gathering (see article), his government should
nudge the line between liberty and security towards the latter. But
the military commissions the Bush administration has set up to try
al-Qaeda suspects are still wrong.illiberal, unjust and likely to be
counter-productive for the war against terrorism.

A question of integrity

The day before America's Independence Day celebrations last week, the
Pentagon quietly announced that Mr Bush had identified six 'enemy
combatants' as eligible for trials before military commissions,
which are to be set up outside America's civilian and military court
systems. The Pentagon did not release the names of the accused, or any
charges against them, but the families of two British prisoners and one
Australian held at the American naval base at Cuba's Guantanamo Bay were
told by their governments that their sons were among the six deemed
eligible for trial.

The Australian government's failure to protest about this has caused
protests (see article). British ministers have expressed 'strong
reservations' about the commissions. In the past, they have asked for
British citizens caught in Afghanistan to be sent home for trial in
British courts -- just as Mr Bush allowed John Walker Lindh, a (white,
middle-class Californian) member of the Taliban, to be tried in American
courts.

American officials insist that the commissions will provide fair
trials. The regulations published by the Pentagon stipulate that
the accused will be considered innocent until proven guilty beyond
a reasonable doubt, that he cannot be compelled to testify against
himself, and that the trials should be open to the press and public if
possible.

The problem is that every procedural privilege the defendant is
awarded in the regulations is provisional, a gift of the panel which
is judging him. The regulations explicitly deny him any enforceable
rights of the sort that criminal defendants won as long ago as the
Middle Ages. Moreover, the planned commissions lack the one element
indispensable to any genuinely fair proceeding -- an independent
judiciary, both for the trial itself and for any appeal against a
conviction. The military officers sitting as judges belong to a
single chain of command reporting to the secretary of defence and
the president, who will designate any accused for trial before the
commissions and will also hear any final appeals. For years, America has
rightly condemned the use of similar military courts in other countries
for denying due process.

Why dispense with such basic rules of justice? Mr Bush's officials say
they must balance the demand for fair trials with the need to gather
intelligence to fend off further terrorist attacks. Nobody denies that
fighting terrorism puts justice systems under extraordinary strain. But
this dilemma has frequently 

Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 8:05:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Indeed, I am sure that the intelligence services of the rest of the world
> were *shocked*,  shocked I tell you, to learn that the wife 
> of an
> ambassador was a spy.

So easy for you guys to be glib. She was in fact a spy. She was in fact working with 
cover organizations. Those she worked with and for may not have known and now they do. 
Outing her was illegal. I guess it is ok to out an agent but not ok to have an affair 
and lie about it. Just so I am clear on this. 
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 7:46:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> It has become rather vague since then.  We _don't
> know_ if it was a political appointee, a career civil
> servant (someone in the SES could also be referred to
> as a high administration official, for example), or
> someone else entirely.  All we know for sure is that
> the CIA doesn't seem to have made any effort to
> preserve her identity - because Novak himself has said
> that if the CIA had asked him to keep her name
> confidential (and he _called them to ask_) he would
> have done so.  And they didn't.  The only reason, so
> far as I can tell, that this became an issue at all is
> that Joe Wilson is a pathetic publicity hound.  Which
> matches the pretty much universal impression of him
> that I've heard, so it's not exactly a shock.

So now Wilson is being slammed? Did he leak this info? Did he ask to go to africa? All 
he did was tell the truth when his findings were made public. By the way he wasn't a 
pathetic publicity hound when he was serving us in the mideast. Please avoid terms 
like "universal impression" unless you can define the universe. I am sure it is 
universal in the WJS editorial office but not elsewhere. As to the CIA, it is my 
understanding that agents are outraged about this. (Saw this on Nightline where 
several agents and former agents were interveiwed - oh wait this is the liberal press 
so can be discounted as anti-american. I hate those anti-americans who risked their 
lives for their country and fake outrage when their own government undermines them - 
almost treasonist if you ask me. 
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 7:47:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> I'm missing something.  Didn't Robert Novak claim that he 
> got his info from
> a high administration official?

What you are missing is the WSJ view of the world. Nothing the republicans do is wrong 
and if it is. lie about it
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Re: won't get polled again

[Alberto Monteiro]

Kevin Tarr wrote:
>
> Thursday night got two phone calls, opinion polls. The first was general
> about TV viewing, how many night a week did I watch TV between 8-10, what
> channels did I mostly like, what types of shows.
>
When people ask me questions in the phone, I reply
that I never give information through the phone

Paranoia Maru

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 7:45:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> He refused to answer the question as to
> whether he has or has not.  Given how frantically the
> Gore opposition research team was looking for evidence
> that he had, and how much money they were spending on
> it, my bet is that he didn't, because it would have
> come out if he had.  I don't really know that, though,
> it's just my guess

Uh - just your unbiased guess. There was pretty clear hearsay evidence that he did and 
as I remember his advisors knew about it. Of course Bush would never hide something 
like this just as he would never hide the fact that he was speeding when he was 
arrested for DWI in Maine. 
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 7:33:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> A claim for which you have _no_, as in zero, evidence.
> A lot of people have _claimed_ that the
> Administration leaked that name - all of them
> liberals, oddly enough - but no one has provided even
> a jot of evidence on that topic.  What I have heard is
> that the CIA _itself_ leaked that information.  
Uh - Robert Novak attributed it to a white house source so are you calling Novak a 
liar?
Why would the CIA out Plame? She was their agent. What would be their purpose? It 
makes sense only as a plant by the white house. Novak, a conservative columnist rights 
a column that attempts to discredit a damaging piece of evidence by implying that he 
got the job because of nepotism. 

I would also point out that half of Washington has known
> Valerie Plame was a CIA agent for years, so it's not
> as if it's a major security breach either. 

You will agree that outing her was illegal as in against the law won't you and that 
the person who did this has broken the law and should be prosecuted. You will agree 
won't you that while half of washington knew she was an agent that some people in the 
world may not have known that she was and the outing could jeapordize their lives and 
our ability to carry out the CIA;s mission. You will agree I would hope that once 
Novak made his report the White House should have immediately moved for an 
investigation since this represented a breach of national security? 

 None of
> this, of course, came out in the press.

But of course it came out in the press. I saw both of these craven arguements in the 
press. They were as heinous and cynical then as they are now. 
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Doug Pensinger]

Dan Minette  wrote:

I said:

Sufficiently ambiguous.  Evolution is my creator.

First, that wasn't Jefferson's idea. The idea of the enlightenment did 
not include the idea of human rights being a meme that evolved because it
worked.
Human rights didn't create me, the biological process called evolution 
created me.  How could a meme create a biological being and why would you 
assume that I would think such a stupid thing.  The word creator is 
sufficiently ambiguous to encompass any number of ideologies, religious or 
not.  That's what I ment.

--
Doug
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in 
the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that 
the one is not three, and the three are not one . . . But this constitutes 
the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their 
gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more 
flies. We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of 
priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say 
nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe."

Jefferson letter to John Adams, 1813 
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Re: Explanation

[William T Goodall]

On 16 Nov 2003, at 11:36 pm, Dan Minette wrote:
Right, the problem is that particles and waves were both partial
understandings.   What was needed was a model that included an 
inherently
unobservable wave function, collapse of the wave function into an
eigenstate, etc.  What was needed was a paradigm shift.

Now, that's a word that has been tremendously overused and misused.
However, in this case it is very valid.  Physics has had two paradigm
shifts in ~3000 years, and this was the second one.
So, lets go back to different religions.  All one needs to argue is 
that,
like particles and waves, different religions have partial imperfect
understandings
But how partial and imperfect do you have to go to reconcile the 
differences? It would appear that pretty much every specific claim in 
any particular religion has to go. Is there one god or a multiplicity 
of gods or no gods at all just spirits? Was Jesus the son of god, just 
a prophet or just a man? When we die do we go to heaven or purgatory or 
dissipate to nothing or get reincarnated? 'Partial and imperfect' is 
all very well, but I don't see what is left. 'All of the above' is not 
a good answer :)


 "now I see as through a glass darkly, then I shall see face
to face."   Some understandings can still be better than others, and 
some
can be way off target, as was the caloric theory of heat.
That may be so, but how can you tell which are which?

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my 
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my 
telephone." - Bjarne Stroustrup

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 10:10:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Why Jewish? Those who are taking steps in World Domination
> are the Swiss People! They control the money, not the Jews

Which of course they got from the german jews and did not bother to return after the 
war
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 10:16:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> How many people have them regularly scheduled, anyway?

The lucky ones
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 9:18:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> If people criticized The Fool for positing an article 
> "Jewish dreams of
> world domination", would you feel the same way?

No of course not. Since I agree with almost everything the Fool says I forgive him 
when he makes little mistakes 

or 

I don't take him seriously. Sometimes it is not worth getting all upset about things
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 8:45:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Let's just say that I think that's noticeable.
> 
> I'd say some incredible discrimination is noticable. All of 
> them are
> human.

How about being less coy about this. There is of course a difference. Ruby Ridge was 
something that got out of hand. It was a trajedy. It was not the result of a series of 
decisions by our government to withhold rights from individuals. The prisonsers in 
Quantonamo are another issue. I did not have problems with them being held initially 
but there has to be a time limit on this. At some point we need due process here
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Re: Fox News, we distort, you comply.

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 8:38:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

>  Inquisitive, well-informed people vote Democratic?
> > :-)
> > Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
> 
> Well, most CEOs vote Republican, which suggests that
> competent, capable people vote Republican. :-)

Where is the evidence that CEOs are capable or competent? Could it be that CEOs are 
rich and powerful and that rich and powerful people vote republican?
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Re: Laptop question

[Erik Reuter]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 02:21:50PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote:

> What should I use to get the finger smudges off the screen?

Isopropyl alcohol should work and not cause any damage to remove finger
oils. But if the smudges have been there for a while, the slightly
acidic oils may have actually eaten into the coating on the screen, in
which case not a lot can be done.


-- 
Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Explanation

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: Explanation


>
> On 16 Nov 2003, at 6:21 am, Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > Let me understand.  You are seriously suggesting that viewing physics
> > through a computer science lens is as valid as viewing physics through
> > a
> > physics lens?
>
> It seems to be better actually :)

Uh-huh.  I'd appreciate a computer programming lens unifed field theory.
;-)


> >  By definition, a particle is pointline.  When it exhibits
> > behavior that is not pointlike, it must be treated in another manner
> > (e.g.
> > rigid body).  By definition, a wave is spread over a volumn.  These are
> > mutually contradicting.
>
> That would be a big problem for the way you look at things then...


Right, the problem is that particles and waves were both partial
understandings.   What was needed was a model that included an inherently
unobservable wave function, collapse of the wave function into an
eigenstate, etc.  What was needed was a paradigm shift.

Now, that's a word that has been tremendously overused and misused.
However, in this case it is very valid.  Physics has had two paradigm
shifts in ~3000 years, and this was the second one.

So, lets go back to different religions.  All one needs to argue is that,
like particles and waves, different religions have partial imperfect
understandings "now I see as through a glass darkly, then I shall see face
to face."   Some understandings can still be better than others, and some
can be way off target, as was the caloric theory of heat.

So, I view the arguments about the differences in understanding as no more
persuasive than the question "well which slit did the photon go through?"

Dan M.


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Laptop question

[Julia Thompson]

What should I use to get the finger smudges off the screen?

Julie

and the key that got popped out went back in once I figured out how to do 
that, and we're keeping the laptop closed when not in use now -- nothing 
like a toddler...


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Farscape

[William T Goodall]

As reported in another place, there is apparently going to be a 
mini-series to wrap it up...

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=16501

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"Aerospace is plumbing with the volume turned up." - John Carmack

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Re: Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Pensinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:11 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re: christian dreams of murder...


> I sent this during the outage and havent seen it appear yet.
>
> Doug
>
> --- Forwarded message ---
> From: Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: christian dreams of murder...
> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:31:52 -0800
>
>   Dan Minette  wrote:
>
> > I said:
> >
> >>> Sufficiently ambiguous.  Evolution is my creator.
> >
> >> First, that wasn't Jefferson's idea. The idea of the enlightenment did
> >> not include the idea of human rights being a meme that evolved because
> >> it
> >> worked.
> >
> Human rights didn't create me, the biological process called evolution
> created me.  How could a meme create a biological being and why would
> you assume that I would think such a stupid thing.  The word creator is
> sufficiently ambiguous to encompass any number of ideologies, religious
> or not.  That's what I meant.

I was evaluating this in terms of what you have said earlier is that things
like human rights, morality, etc. comes from evolution. In other words, I
was taking what you wrote in the context of your earlier writings.

The problem that exists with this analysis is that, the writings of the
Enlightenment are very clear in terms of the limits of reason.  "The
Critique of Pure Reason is a very good example of this.  In terms of what
I've said earlier, one does not need to be Christian in order to accept
this on faith, but one does need faith. I'll agree that faith in the
Transcendental should be sufficient, but the idea of a deduction of
morality through pure reason was not part of the Enlightenment.  Self
evident truths are not proven through references to science, they are
accepted as true because they are true.

> -- 
> Doug
>
> Thomas Jefferson To John Adams, 1813
>
> "It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe
in
> the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet
that
> the one is not three, and the three are not one . . . But this
constitutes
> the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their
> gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more
> flies. We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of
> priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say
> nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe"

But, you have to take this in context.  In responding to this, I'll be
quoting from  and referencing "Sworn on the Alter of God, A  Religious
Biography of  Thomas Jefferson."

He argues against  Trinitarian theology.  In it, we find the claim that
Jefferson was influence by "Priestley's "History of the Corruption of
Christianity", published in 1782.  The above passage seems to clearly flow
from Priestley's argument that the trinity is an unsound post biblical
idea.

Jefferson didn't seek to overturn Christianity.,  Rather, he wanted to
rescue it from people whom he thought  twisted it. He wrote a 46 page
thesis on the true teachings of Jesus.  He felt that he could do this
through reason alone, without any of the techniques now used to examine
ancient literature.

He, indeed, had a problem with organized religion.  But, he was a man of
faith; as all who were part of the enlightenment were. He was not very
interested in dogmatic squabbles, but thought proper action was the proper
understanding of religion.

Quoting from the book with quotes of Jefferson in quotes"





Jefferson was a very complex man.  He clearly believed in God, and the
reference to self evident


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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Julia Thompson]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Dan Minette wrote:

> I remember Ruby Ridge and the controversy surrounding it.  There was a
> lot of debate concerning exactly what happened.  The range of
> interpretations that I saw was anything from a mistake under fire to
> actions that should have ended up with the trial and conviction of the
> agent involved.
> 
> However, during the time, I've also seen multiple times that cops busted
> down doors looking for drugs, killing unarmed people.  It certainly
> didn't get the news coverage that Ruby Ridge did.  I know in Houston, at
> least, the cops never being convicted.  I remember statistics being
> gathered at the time, but not the details of the statistics,

There were two incidents sometime in the past 5 years in Travis County 
that got me upset.  One was that a drug raid was done on someone's 
residence at 2AM.  Someone was asleep on the couch, startled awake, and he 
sat up.  He was shot and killed.  The officer that shot him was not 
indicted.  The second one was that a drug raid was done on someone's 
residence at 2AM, and the resident shot an officer.  He was tried and 
convicted.  I hold the person who made the decision to do the raids at 2AM 
that way responsible for both those deaths.  And you'd think that after 
one such death, they might rethink their tactics before they lost an 
officer by that method.

The local media covered it.  IIRC, the editor of the local paper took a 
dim view of the 2AM-raid tactic.

> Indeed, as I mentioned before, I know a member of one of those militias
> who stated "its too bad about the babies, but the agents had it coming"
> after Oklahoma City.  The hostility I felt, not just from this man,
> against going after terrorists like this amazed me at the time.  I don't
> doubt that you can pull out some quotes from leftists who said the same
> thing, but this is the sorta thing I heard at work from just regular
> folks.

I'm glad I wasn't hearing that at the time -- I'd've been livid.  I was 
working for the IRS at that point.  Until that happened, I never worried 
about my being safe at work -- after all, I was a good distance away from 
the mail room.  I was sitting between two co-workers who got hysterical 
before the end of the workday.  (I'd used up most of my emotional energy 
on personal problems, and I was angry not just that it had happened, but 
that it had happened that particular week.)

Now, some of my co-workers had less than flattering things to say about
the administration under which they were working, so it's not as if
everyone working for the feds at that time was happy about everything the
administration had done.  There were people I worked with who weren't
happy about what happened at the Branch Davidian compound.  There was
active hostility from some people about that.  But nobody I worked with
believed that killing anyone involved in anything like that was the
solution, except maybe in the case of Kenneth McDuff (who'd been sentenced
to die for a murder he'd committed, then had his sentence go to life when
the death penalty was declared unconstitutional, and who'd been let out on
parole and then killed again), and then only after due process.

Julia

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: christian dreams of murder...


> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 09:08:07AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > So, the fact that the US won the last two great battles doesn't mean
> > that our system of human rights is a logical byproduct of evolution,
> > any more than extreme nationalism would have been proven by a German
> > victory or the historical dialectic by a Communist victory.  It was a
> > lucky break, just as
>
> Well, there's lucky and then there's LUCKY. If I'm playing 5 card draw
> and I take 3 cards keeping a pair of aces, I still need luck to win
> against someone who draws one card to a 5678. But the odds are in my
> favor.

Cards are well known.


> I think it is pretty clear that neither pure competition nor pure
> cooperation is likely to work as a way to run a society. While it is a
> good book, the society in Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash_ is unlikely
> to prevail in the world for several reasons, not the least of which is
> that not many people would WANT such a society. On the other extreme,
> socialism/communism has repeatedly failed to produce any stunning
> successes.

The inevitablity of history in hindsight is about as valid as the
inevitability of the stock market moving in a given direction in hindsight.
Was it inevitable that Lincoln was skilled in international affairs, or was
that lucky?  Was it inevitable that the third officer of the Soviet nuclear
sub. being depth charged by the US said no to launching these missles, or
was it luck?

> I think it is pretty clear that a balanced system, like the pair of aces
> above, has the edge. The optimal balance may not be clear, whether it
> leans toward the American side or toward the Scandinavian side, or in
> between (Britain?).

Statistical analysis from one case is not really that sound.  30 years ago
most people at universities around the world thought the historical
dielectic proved that Communisim was the superior system.  Now, with a bit
more data, we differ.  But, most people in the field who were brighter than
us thought otherwise.  IMHO, that should be a lesson against hubris for you
and me.


The US has been singularly dominant for about 20 years.  That's an
extremely short time to write about obvious historical systematic
advantage.

Dan M.


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Rush the hypocrite

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/15/2003 2:05:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> As for the stuff about Rush, I really have no opinion as I don't 
> watch/listen to him.  I would point out, though, that he's not a politician, 
> just a media pundit (ie: not a government official) and IMHO we have less 
> right to outrage over his private sins than we would for someone in 
> government.   In any case, I'd bet that if a Democrat pundit or politician 
> announced some addiction, we'd see Democrats making excuses and cutting 
> slack and Republicans making criticisms.  And with Rush, it was the 
> opposite.  To me, that's politics as usual, and one of the 
> biggest reasons I 
> hate politics.

Rush is not a politician but he is an important piece of the right's propoganda 
machine. The point is that he has gotten very little criticsm from the mainstream 
press and there is no vocal liberal or left media voice to hammer him. Michael Moore 
might fit the bill but how much air time does he get. Given the responses of people 
like O'Reilly and Hannity to the personal transgressions of liberals it is the height 
of hypocracy for them to cut Rush any slack.  
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Re: Resemblances

[Russell Chapman]

Julia Thompson wrote:

Oh, and if you're trying to avoid looking, don't look at the floor.  You 
don't want to look at the floor.

Look at your hand as it's being mauled.  ;)

And a coda to the "don't look down" advice - this is REALLY important in 
a Caesarian birth...

I had no trouble with the natural birth of my daughter, it was all so 
wondrous I didn't even notice the rest of it, but when Alistair was 
"extracted" it all happenned so quickly, calmly and quietly I wasn't 
even vaguely expecting it, and the movement attracted my eyes around the 
little "screen" thingy.
Mostly I saw a gloved hand raised with a pair of tiny ankles gripped 
between finger and thumb, but there was also peripheral view of the rest 
of the table.

Cheers
Russell C.
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Re: Explanation

[Julia Thompson]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Sonja van Baardwijk wrote:

> I HAVE NO KILLFILE. The first one saying I have a killfile ... will ...  
> be ... eh ... smothered in ...eh ...  chocolate sause. ;o)

And this would be bad how?  :)

Julia

funny, didn't have massive chocolate cravings while I was pregnant this
time around, have them now...

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/14/2003 10:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Just out of curiosity, if someone posted a fantasy about molesting a 
> child, saying that the darker parts of his mind imagined it but explaining 
> carefully that he would never advocate such a thing and 
> why, would that be 
> just OK?

This is a difficult question to answer. It suppose it depends on the context of the 
posting and the quality of the post. The key is whether one can discern the motive 
behin posting the fantasy. I would guess that many people have some fantasy that is 
twisted  or cruel. Almost no one acts or really wants to act on these. So why would 
one make such a fantasy public? The answer to this question would determine whether it 
was ok or not.
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Re: Resemblances

[Jim Sharkey]

Julia Thompson wrote:
>Jim Sharkey wrote:
>>Damon Agretto wrote:
>>>Did he kinda resemble Winston Churchill when he was born? :)
>> Childbirth always seems to look like pulling a tiny Winston 
>>Chruchill dipped in forty weight oil out of a taco salad to 
>>me.
>Oh, and if you're trying to avoid looking, don't look at the 
>floor.  You >don't want to look at the floor.

Yeah, that's bad too.  And the accompanying "PLOP" as the placenta is expelled is a 
little disturbing too.

The most amazing at the birth of my first child, outside of the blessed event itself, 
was that the OB/GYN came into the delivery dressed in white pants and a pastel shirt.  
He only draped a light covering over himself for the delivery.  The entire place 
looked like an abbatoir, yet somehow, he didn't have a drop of blood on him.  It was 
like he had a force field or something.

Jim
I have more gross stories if you want them Maru

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Re: Six Sigma

[Bemmzim]

In a message dated 11/14/2003 10:14:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Admittedly, I was wondering why you were looking for the info, given what I 
> know of your profession.  I wondered if perhaps someone had come up with a 
> six-sigma program for the medical profession, e,g., a goal that there would 
> be no more than 3.4 negative outcomes per million hospital 
> admissions, or 
> something . . .

The process is supposed to make it possible to choose appropriate goals (some 
combination of importance and feasibility). YOu use Six Sigma to monitor progress; For 
instance, if you want to improve throughput with MR you breakdown the process into its 
component steps (order the exam, schedule, , transport, radiologist protocols exam, 
technologist and nursing staff perform exam, transport back to the patient floor, 
study interpretation, report generation, communication of results with the referring 
physician). You analyze problems and institute solutions. You achieve Six Sigma when 
you meet your standards > 99% of time. Or so they say.
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Nick Arnett]

Gautam Mukunda wrote:

_In fact_ we have a problem.  We have a group of
people who are immensely motivated to kill Americans
and who have attempted to do so in the past.  Our
system of justice was not created with people like
that in mind.  
Are you saying that the U.S. system of justice was not created with 
*all* people in mind?  Did the founders of this country believe that 
there are people so evil that they are beyond redemption?  I can 
acknowledge that they made the mistake of imagining that some people 
aren't really people, but we have moved beyond that error.

Are you arguing that there is a new kind of evil at work in the world, 
which must be eradicated?  At all costs?  Is that even possible, without 
eliminating self-aware consciousness?

Haven't people wiped out entire nations and cultures a number of times? 
  Setting aside nationalistic concerns for a moment, has humanity's 
situation changed?  What difference is there for our nation, today, 
other than being on the receiving end of a serious threat?

_If it were, our rights would be much
smaller_.  As even a basic study of constitutional law
tells you, American civil rights have fluctuated over
time in response to threat.  Civil rights during the
Civil War were significantly curtailed (far more so
than in any period before or since) by the man now
hailed as the greatest of all Americans - and rightly
so.  During the Second World War the American press
was generally censored to prevent it from reporting
critical data to the enemy - and rightly so again. 
And this during a time when the press was not
adversarial to American interests.  Treating
terrorists captured on the field of battle in
Afghanistan like bank robbers in the US is the fastest
way I can think of to erode civil protections in the
_American_ judicial system.  
Isn't that a straw man, since there is a range of options between the 
treatment of those held at Gitmo and that of a U.S. bank robbery suspect?

To paraphrase you, didn't we make the choice to have a nation that 
regards certain human rights as inalienable, and now we must live with 
the consequences of *that* choice?

To be specific, I believe that never should have permitted the torturous 
conditions under which they're being held, nor should we ever have 
denied them counsel.  I don't really have a problem with coming up with 
a burden of proof appropriate to the circumstances, just as it varies 
among more ordinary courts.  But I don't even hear any discussion of 
what that standard should be, and so I imagine that our goal is to 
convict and "disappear" them, not to make the difficult decision about 
what is just.

Nick

--
Nick Arnett
Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Fwd: Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Doug Pensinger]

I sent this during the outage and havent seen it appear yet.

Doug

--- Forwarded message ---
From: Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: christian dreams of murder...
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:31:52 -0800
 Dan Minette  wrote:

I said:

Sufficiently ambiguous.  Evolution is my creator.

First, that wasn't Jefferson's idea. The idea of the enlightenment did 
not include the idea of human rights being a meme that evolved because 
it
worked.

Human rights didn't create me, the biological process called evolution
created me.  How could a meme create a biological being and why would
you assume that I would think such a stupid thing.  The word creator is
sufficiently ambiguous to encompass any number of ideologies, religious
or not.  That's what I ment.
--
Doug
Thomas Jefferson To John Adams, 1813

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in 
the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that 
the one is not three, and the three are not one . . . But this constitutes 
the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their 
gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more 
flies. We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of 
priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say 
nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe"
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Re: Week 11 Picks

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Week 11 Picks


> > The game even ended on a weird note.
> > With the Texans leading 12 - 8, and time running out, the Texans hiked
> the
> > ball to a runner who then ran the ball the wrong way down the field,
> through
> > the end zone, giving the Bills 2 points, but winning the game.
> > Texans 12
> > Bills 10
> >
> > xponent
> > Somewhat Ugly Maru
> > rob
>
> The real ugly thing was the Bills being stupid enough to accept the
> penalty.
>

Mansome of the Bills players were mad mad mad, and I don't blame them
one bit.
That was an ill conceived move.

xponent
Bills Are A Better Team Maru
rob


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Re: Veterans (was Veterans Bushwhacked)

[John Garcia]

At 10:36 AM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:

--- Doug Pensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 07:39:32 -0600, Ronn!Blankenship
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At 04:36 PM 11/15/03 +0900, G. D. Akin wrote:
> >> How many veterans on the list?
> >>
> >> I'll start the count at 1.
> >
> >
> > 2.
> >
>
> 3
4.

Damon.
5

john

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[John Garcia]

At 09:31 AM 11/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I remember Ruby Ridge and the controversy
> surrounding it.  There was a lot
> of debate concerning exactly what happened.  The
> range of interpretations
> that I saw was anything from a mistake under fire to
> actions that should
> have ended up with the trial and conviction of the
> agent involved.
I actually don't blame the agent involved much at all.
 I blame the orders he was given.  I don't remember
the exact wording, but the HRT was given unique orders
that basically told them to shoot to kill everyone
they saw up there.  Which they did.
> I remember the standoff with the Branch Davidians,
> and how the government
> was chastised for being too hard on terrorists who
> were planning an action
> that would kill as many people as killed on 9-11.***
>  Second guessing the
> governments actions was fine; it was the anger at
> even trying to stop these
> terrorists that was amazing. Private militias,
> talking about actively
> opposing the government with illegal arms were
> defended as true loyal
> Americans.
> Dan M.
In the Waco case, I don't have a problem with them
going after the Branch Davidians, although, as seemed
to be routine under Janet Reno, the level of
incompetence involved was quite staggering.  David
Koresh was a bad guy, and there were some horrible
things going on out there.  What they _should have
done_, however, was grab him on his daily early
morning job outside the compound.  The only
explanation I can adduce for the massive raid was to
give Reno something to grandstand about.
Note, this isn't surprising.  Reno made her reputation
in Florida (IIRC) prosecuting ridiculous ritual
Satanic child abuse cases, all of which have, of
course, now been overturned.  I'm not sure whether she
was simply credulous and believed the claims, or was
actually willing to prosecute innocent people for
political benefit.  But something very wrong happened
there.  Reno's not alone in this - Jane Swift in
Massachusetts (a Republican) refused to pardon people
committed on similar spurious charges up there, and
that was a disgrace.
At any rate, Waco seems to me very different from Ruby
Ridge, where they seem to have gone in with a hunting
license.
=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com
I didn't want to get into thisSigh, I worked for 3 years with one of 
the US Deputy Marshals who was at Ruby Ridge, and (as he related to me) no 
one went in with a "hunting license".
Don't forget Bill Degan.

john

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Re: Week 11 Picks

[Dan Minette]

> The game even ended on a weird note.
> With the Texans leading 12 - 8, and time running out, the Texans hiked
the
> ball to a runner who then ran the ball the wrong way down the field,
through
> the end zone, giving the Bills 2 points, but winning the game.
> Texans 12
> Bills 10
>
> xponent
> Somewhat Ugly Maru
> rob

The real ugly thing was the Bills being stupid enough to accept the
penalty.

Dan M.


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Fw: Week 11 Picks

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Week 11 Picks


>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:25 AM
> Subject: Week 11 Picks
>
>
> >
> > Houston at Buffalo - This game is a lot like the Redskins game for the
> > Bills.The Texans have no defensive tackles to speak of, and are
better
> > passing than running the ball.   That plays right into Buffalo's
> strengths,
> > and even if Eric Moulds does not play, they should run away with this
one.
> > Pick: BILLS
> >
>
> One of the weirdest first halves I have seen.
>
> Neither team is playing as well as expected.
>
> The Bills knock David Carr out of the game on a safety and score 2.
>
> Then the Bills miss 2 quite easy field goals before making one to make the
> score 5 - 0 for the Bills.
>
> The Texans were unable to get much going.
>
> Very late in the half the Texans  score a TD, but do not get the 2 point
> conversion under questionable circumstances. (TV replay is from a bad
angle,
> but even there it appears that the carrier crossed the plane before being
> driven back. It was called inconclusive and I have to agree considering
the
> angle that was shown and how the rules work.)
>
> At the half it is Texans 6 - 5 over the Bills.
>
> A confounding game, considering that the Bills were dominant in every
phase
> of the game except special teams where the results were somewhat even.
>
> I expect the Bills to pull it out, but *that* was one strange half a game!
>
> xponent
> Rooting For My Team In Any Case Maru
> rob
>
>
The game even ended on a weird note.
With the Texans leading 12 - 8, and time running out, the Texans hiked the
ball to a runner who then ran the ball the wrong way down the field, through
the end zone, giving the Bills 2 points, but winning the game.
Texans 12
Bills 10

xponent
Somewhat Ugly Maru
rob


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Re: [ADMIN] Network interruption

[Robert Seeberger]

Did we lose all the listmail from the outage period?

xponent
Brilliant Expositions Lost Maru
rob


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[ADMIN] Network interruption

[Nick Arnett]

The list was down from 6 or 7 o'clock this morning until now, due to a 
network failure.  I don't know exactly why it healed, but after I 
switched to some backup hardware, it came back to life... and then the 
primary decided it was going to work, after all.  Perhaps our ISP found 
something after I called them, but at the time, they couldn't see 
anything wrong.

Anyway, we're back and that's why we were off the air.  The server 
problems we were having for a while seem to have been eliminated by the 
work we did to reduce the impact of spammers on it.

Nick
--
Nick Arnett
Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: christian dreams of murder...

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- ritu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh, go ahead. If there are any factual errors in
> your commentary, I'll
> chime in with corrections; otherwise, I'll chime in
> with my opinions.
> Unlike you, I do not feel bound to insist that
> everything ever done by
> my country's government [or, to be more precise, a
> govt. formed by a
> party I support] was a good idea or a humanitarian
> one. Or that if they
> messed up incredibly, they were 'forced' into doing
> so by bad, mean,
> nasty 'others'.
> 
> Ritu

Oddly enough, I am.  Apparently alone among me, Erik,
and you, though, I've actually spent some time
thinking about this issue.  Erik's probably not
capable of it, but I would appreciate it if you
actually tried to answer my arguments instead of
making accusations like this.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Erik Reuter]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 07:33:59AM -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:

> Perhaps at some point in the future you will learn how to talk to
> people without insulting them.  I have more important things to do
> with my life than waste any more energy on you.

Perhaps at some point in your life you will outgrow your fear, hatred,
and lack of fair consideration for others not like you. I hope so.


-- 
Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Erik Reuter]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 07:37:04AM -0800, Gautam Mukunda wrote:

> Historical illiterates should be careful about the references they
> use.

True illiterates should be careful about misreading what was written.


-- 
Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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RE: christian dreams of murder...

[ritu]

Gautam Mukunda wrote:

> > > Cowards and bigots take away the rights of others
> > in order to protect
> > > their own skins. Self-confident adults extend fair
> > treatment 
> > > to everyone
> > > they encounter and accept the risks that freedom
> > entails in order to
> > > obtain the great benefits of a liberal society.
> > 
> > Well said.
> > 
> > Ritu
> 
> Really?  

Really. :)

> You want to talk about Khalistan, or should I?

Oh, go ahead. If there are any factual errors in your commentary, I'll
chime in with corrections; otherwise, I'll chime in with my opinions.
Unlike you, I do not feel bound to insist that everything ever done by
my country's government [or, to be more precise, a govt. formed by a
party I support] was a good idea or a humanitarian one. Or that if they
messed up incredibly, they were 'forced' into doing so by bad, mean,
nasty 'others'.

Ritu


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RE: Bizarre baby names

[Jon Gabriel]

From: "Jim Sharkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Bizarre baby names
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:45:38 -0500 (EST)
William T Goodall wrote:
>Children have been named after big brands as diverse as beauty
>company L'Oreal, car firm Chevrolet and designer clothes company
>Armani. There are even two little boys, one in Michigan and one in
>Texas, called ESPN after the sports channel.
Dear Lord, why don't they just pin signs to these kids that say "Kick my 
ass and take my lunch money" instead?  It'd save time.
Sounds like a Simpson's episode to me.

"Homer, please make sure you watch ESPN while I go to the market."
"WOOHOO!!!"
"Our _child_, Homer."
"DOH!"
Apropos to the discussion at hand: I think this was originally posted by 
Adam a couple of years ago.  The "Baby's Named A Bad Bad Thing" website: 
http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/index.html
:-D
Jon

Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com

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Re: Resemblances

[Julia Thompson]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Jim Sharkey wrote:

> 
> Damon Agretto wrote:
> >Did he kinda resemble Winston Churchill when he was born? :)
> 
> Childbirth always seems to look like pulling a tiny Winston Chruchill
> dipped in forty weight oil out of a taco salad to me.
> 
> Jim
> Actually made the mistake of looking Maru

Oh, and if you're trying to avoid looking, don't look at the floor.  You 
don't want to look at the floor.

Look at your hand as it's being mauled.  ;)

Julia

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Didn't the British just have shoot to kill orders
> with the IRA..even though
> they were citizens?
> 
> Dan M.

Yes.  Also internment camps (as William mentioned).

The "concentration camp" was invented _by the British_
during the Boer War.

Historical illiterates should be careful about the
references they use.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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RE: christian dreams of murder...

[Gautam Mukunda]

--- ritu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Cowards and bigots take away the rights of others
> in order to protect
> > their own skins. Self-confident adults extend fair
> treatment 
> > to everyone
> > they encounter and accept the risks that freedom
> entails in order to
> > obtain the great benefits of a liberal society.
> 
> Well said.
> 
> Ritu

Really?  You want to talk about Khalistan, or should
I?




=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Gautam Mukunda]

Erik, you're clearly incapable of a discussion that's
worth my time at this point.

Perhaps at some point in the future you will learn how
to talk to people without insulting them.  I have more
important things to do with my life than waste any
more energy on you.

=
Gautam Mukunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Freedom is not free"
http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com

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Re: Bizarre baby names

[William T Goodall]

On 16 Nov 2003, at 2:45 pm, Jim Sharkey wrote:

William T Goodall wrote:
Children have been named after big brands as diverse as beauty
company L'Oreal, car firm Chevrolet and designer clothes company
Armani. There are even two little boys, one in Michigan and one in
Texas, called ESPN after the sports channel.
Dear Lord, why don't they just pin signs to these kids that say "Kick 
my ass and take my lunch money" instead?  It'd save time.
There are laws about this kind of thing...

http://rainbowwarrior.coa.edu/laura/laws/national.htm

"The most commonly enforced section of Napoleon's naming law concerns 
burdensome names; it is illegal to give children names that might make 
them subject to teasing.  If your surname is Bar or Cane, for instance, 
you cannot name your child Candy."

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever 
that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the 
majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish 
than sensible."
- Bertrand Russell

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Erik Reuter]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 09:08:07AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:

> So, the fact that the US won the last two great battles doesn't mean
> that our system of human rights is a logical byproduct of evolution,
> any more than extreme nationalism would have been proven by a German
> victory or the historical dialectic by a Communist victory.  It was a
> lucky break, just as

Well, there's lucky and then there's LUCKY. If I'm playing 5 card draw
and I take 3 cards keeping a pair of aces, I still need luck to win
against someone who draws one card to a 5678. But the odds are in my
favor.

I think it is pretty clear that neither pure competition nor pure
cooperation is likely to work as a way to run a society. While it is a
good book, the society in Neal Stephenson's _Snow Crash_ is unlikely
to prevail in the world for several reasons, not the least of which is
that not many people would WANT such a society. On the other extreme,
socialism/communism has repeatedly failed to produce any stunning
successes.

I think it is pretty clear that a balanced system, like the pair of aces
above, has the edge. The optimal balance may not be clear, whether it
leans toward the American side or toward the Scandinavian side, or in
between (Britain?).

But I think America's success is a good indicator of what can be
accomplished by balancing cooperation and competition. I would bet
that if you could set up an accurate simulation (SimWorld++ ?) that
the systems similar to America's would win most of the time. If you
consistently come up with the most and best ideas while filtering out
the really bad ideas, you have a tremendous edge over people who are
taking their choices from a broader distribution.



-- 
Erik Reuter   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Abortion: Pro-Lifers Foil Bombing Plot

[TomFODW]

> In the pro-lifers don't do enough to oppose violence against abortionists
> department:
> 
> 
>    http://www.lifenews.com/nat209.html
> 
> Investigators revealed more information on Thursday about Stephen John
> Jordi, the man whom FBI agents arrested this week on suspicions of plotting
> to firebomb several abortion facilities in Florida and nationwide.
> 
> Pastors in the small Florida town of Coconut Creek informed police about
> him at least four days before he was apprehended.
> 

Not much to say here except, anyone who really believes in American democracy 
should condemn violence of any stripe. Serious opponents of abortion should 
(and most do) realize that the violent actions of the extremist fringe of their 
movement do nothing to advance their cause. Regardless of the issue, and of 
the sincerity of one's views, for this country to work, we all need to play by 
the same rules, one of which is, you can argue as vehemently as you want for 
your beliefs, and you can engage in peaceful protest and civil disobedience. 
But once you resort to violence, you're breaking the compact. 

If sometimes the "right-to-life" crowd is criticized for not doing enough to 
curb the violence-prone factions of their movement, that's because all too 
often they DON'T do enough. This draws attention precisely BECAUSE it is rare. 
Paul Hill and his sympathizers, and anyone who thinks the sincerity of their 
opposition to abortion justifies their committing murder, should be unequivocably 
reviled by true "pro-lifers", excommunicated, abominated, shunned and in 
every other way made to feel completely unwelcome. But too often that doesn't 
happen. You get the attitude, "Well, what they did wasn't right, but I understand 
their frustration," etc. Which is a tacit condoning of evil. 

This is a good start. Let's see some more.



Tom Beck

www.prydonians.org
www.mercerjewishsingles.org

"I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the 
last." - Dr Jerry Pournelle
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Big Mac #3

[William T Goodall]

http://www.top500.org/lists/2003/11/press-release.php

"MANNHEIM, Germany; KNOXVILLE, Tenn.; & BERKELEY, Calif. – In what has 
become a much-anticipated event in the world of high-performance 
computing, the 22nd edition of the “TOP500” list of the world’s fastest 
supercomputers was released today (November 16, 2003).

The Earth Simulator supercomputer retains the number one position with 
its Linpack benchmark performance of 35.86 Tflop/s (“teraflops” or 
trillions of calculations per second). It was built by NEC and 
installed last year at the Earth Simulator Center in Yokohama, Japan.

The list of cluster systems in the TOP10 has grown impressively to 
seven systems. These systems are built with workstations or PCs as 
building blocks and often connected by special high-speed internal 
networks. The number of clusters in the full TOP500 grew also again 
strongly, now totaling 208 systems  up from 149 six months ago. This 
makes clustered systems the most common computer architecture seen in 
the TOP500. The importance of this market can also be seen by the fact 
that most manufacturers are now active in this market segment.

The new TOP500 list, as well as the former lists, can be found on the 
Web at http://www.top500.org/.

The number two position is again held by the ASCI Q system at the U.S. 
Department of Energy’s Los Alamos National Laboratory. ASCI Q was built 
by Hewlett-Packard and is based on the AlphaServer SC computer system. 
With 13.88 Tflop/s, it was the second system ever to exceed the 10 
Tflop/s mark.

The third system ever to exceed the 10 TFflop/s mark is Virgina Tech's 
X Cluster Institute measured at 10.28 TFlop/s. This cluster is built 
with the Apple G5 as building blocks. It uses a Mellanox network based 
on the new Infinband technology as interconnect.

The fourth system is also a cluster. The Tungsten cluster at NCSA is 
based on the Dell PowerEdge system with its Pentium4 Xeon processor and 
uses a Myrinet interconnect. It missed the 10 TFlop/s mark by only a 
tiny margin with a measured 9.82 TFlop/s.

The list of clusters in the TOP10 continues with the upgraded 
Itanium2-based Hewlett-Packard system, located at DOE's Pacific 
Northwest National Laboratory, which uses a Quadrics interconnect. The 
sixth largest system is the first system in the TOP500 based on AMD's 
Opteron chip. It was installed by Linux Networx at the Los Alamos 
National Laboratory and also uses a Myrinet interconnect.

The TOP10 finishes with the IBM SP systems at two other DOE national 
laboratories (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and the National 
Energy Research Scientific Computing Center (NERSC) at Lawrence 
Berkeley National Laboratory) ahead of another Pentium4 Xeon-based 
cluster also at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Gaining 
entry into the top 10 positions on the new list now requires achieving 
a Linpack performance of at least 6.6 Tflop/s."

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my 
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my 
telephone." - Bjarne Stroustrup
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RE: Name this sci fi short story (was: Re: List of Veterans on the List)

[Gary Nunn]

Bryon asked for a story ID
> by all the major space lines.  He was haunted by the vision 
> of some of these 
> alternate
> selves in the crisp white uniform of a captain for a major space line.


Cascade Point, by Timothy Zahn

That collection of short stories has some of my favorite non-Brin
stories in it like Cascade Point and Dragon Pax

You can still pick up this book from www.abebooks.com and from
www.Amazon.com used books for under $2.00 plus shipping.

Gary

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Re: Resemblances

[Jim Sharkey]

Damon Agretto wrote:
>Did he kinda resemble Winston Churchill when he was born? :)

Childbirth always seems to look like pulling a tiny Winston Chruchill dipped in forty 
weight oil out of a taco salad to me.

Jim
Actually made the mistake of looking Maru

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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Gautam Mukunda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: christian dreams of murder...


> --- Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yes and no.  I've seen Rumsfeld state that no trials
> > are neededthey can
> > be held indefinitely without trial until the war on
> > terror ends. The
> > problems with this, compared to a war like WWII, are
> > obvious I think.  The
> > war on terror will not end until there are virtually
> > no more terrorists.
> > So, the Rumsfeld is claiming the right to hold
> > people without trial
> > indefinitely.
> >
> > Dan M.
>
> And this is a real issue.  There are a lot of people
> in that camp who have dedicated their lives to killing
> Americans en masse.  I think there's a real
> possibility that they are going to be held for a very,
> very long time.  I don't see another solution to the
> problem.

Let me understand then.  You have backed off the idea of military trials,
and now think that because people were thought to be AQ operatives, and
because of the risk that AQ operatives pose, the risk of them being set
free after they are found not guilty in a military trial is too high, so we
will decide that they just stay locked up as long as the people who are in
charge sees fit.

But, you just said that you preferred military justice.  So is your
position also in opposition to the governments, and are you willing to take
the risk of a military court setting AQ operatives free?

I see an obvious problem with Rumsfeld's position; a lack of internal
checks and balances. If people are not brought to trial because the defense
department thinks a military tribunal is likely to that there is
insufficient evidence to convict someone, then I do not see that as
reasonable grounds for holding someone. Further, as pointed out by others,
terrorism is a much more nebulous war than any declared war, or any police
action, etc.  It seems that the logical conclusion from the above is that
any non-citizen who is interned by people following the orders of the
President has no recourse from any part of government; even military
courts.  That their only recourse would be threats from other countries
against the US.

Balancing this against the risk that AQ operatives who we aren't sure of
fighting us again after release, I'd rather take the risk of that than have
a government that feels the right to take any foreign citizen and lock them
up forever without any standard of evidence at all.


Dan M.


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Re: christian dreams of murder...

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Pensinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: christian dreams of murder...


> Gautam Mukunda wrote:
>
>
> > Here's a question for you, if you think the
> > Declaration should guide our actions.  You supported
> > Judge Roy Moore, right?  "Endowed _by their Creator_
> > with certain inalienable rights..."  Not so good for
> > separation of church and state, is it?
>
> Sufficiently ambiguous.  Evolution is my creator.

First, that wasn't Jefferson's idea. The idea of the enlightenment did not
include the idea of human rights being a meme that evolved because it
worked.  Until the US Civil War was won by the North, democracies were
considered very suspect.  Second, Social Darwinism, even in its latest
incarnation, is not science.  There have been two distinct variations on
this, the historical dialectic and the "law of the jungle" that have come
out in the last 150 years, and both now have been discredited.  There is no
reason  that the third, which has no better basis in science, will do any
better.  If you want to claim it as a faith statement, that's not
unreasonable.  But it is certainly not science.

The main advantage that we have over the people 2000 years ago is that we
are far richer, due to technology.  We can have machines that lift us above
subsistence existence.  In ancient times, only slaves or serfs could do
that.

Yet, even though slaves were no longer required, we had massive
socio-political systems in the 20th century that had horrendous human
rights records, much worse than that of Ancient Rome, (at the very least if
you take the atrocities/citizen/year as your measure).  Yes, the US
defeated these countries, but that was not inevitable.  Indeed, the
continued existence of the US during the middle of the 19th century was
predicated on Lincoln's diplomatic ability.

So, the fact that the US won the last two great battles doesn't mean that
our system of human rights is a logical byproduct of evolution, any more
than extreme nationalism would have been proven by a German victory or the
historical dialectic by a Communist victory.  It was a lucky break, just as
the existence of New York, Washington, Boston, etc.** was a result of us
catching a lucky break in 10-62.

Dan M.

** The destruction of these cities was more certain than LA or San
Francisco IIRC.




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