Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
One way to handle it, instead of making new rules, would be for as many people as possible to simply state that they refuse to reply to any message with a legal notice in it. If enough people adopt such a policy, the offending legal notices are likely to disappear. -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Nick Arnett wrote: So here is my proposal: COPYRIGHT POLICY The intent of this policy is to ensure that postings to this list are treated no differently than postings to similar Internet-based mailing lists. Therefore, your postings may not contain language that would alter others' rights to make copies. This policy is not intended to define such rights, which are determined and evolve in other venues. Do people ever post anything here which really would involve copyright. Short stories, op-ed pieces etc? Brad posts links to his web site, as does Dr Brin, whenever they post stuff like that. Can't we just say that any such disclaimers will be ignored? To take it to the other extreme - can we have a filter on the mailer daemon that holds all posts containing the word copyright for moderation? Maybe it would be best just to ignore messages which contain the disclaimers, as Erik suggested, even though it requires a level of co-operation not often seen. Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 6:23 PM Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > One way to handle it, instead of making new rules, would be for as many > people as possible to simply state that they refuse to reply to any > message with a legal notice in it. If enough people adopt such a policy, > the offending legal notices are likely to disappear. Likely may be overstating it, but since I'm a plumber, I would tend to favor an experimental test of that hypothesis. :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> So here is my proposal: > COPYRIGHT POLICY > The intent of this policy is to ensure that postings to this > list are treated no differently than postings to similar > Internet-based mailing lists. Therefore, your postings may > not contain language that would alter others' rights to make > copies. This policy is not intended to define such rights, > which are determined and evolve in other venues. My suggestion would be to make the policy painfully simple in both language and understanding: "By posting to Brin-L, you understand and agree that your post can and will be archived and be made publicly available." It does not need to be any more complicated than that. :-) Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
--- Erik Reuter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One way to handle it, instead of making new rules, > would be for as many > people as possible to simply state that they refuse > to reply to any > message with a legal notice in it. If enough people > adopt such a policy, > the offending legal notices are likely to disappear. Copyright law isn't something that's been on my radar screen; modifying (or attempting to do so ;D ) others' behavior is a daily occurrence - occasionally even successful! (My cats will no doubt "get me" for that last... :} ) Group Effort Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Gary L. Nunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:52:34 -0500 My suggestion would be to make the policy painfully simple in both language and understanding: "By posting to Brin-L, you understand and agree that your post can and will be archived and be made publicly available." It does not need to be any more complicated than that. :-) Gary But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or replying to a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. JJ _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting > or replying to > a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened > jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. > JJ This is true, but in reality this is a different issue than the copyright question. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Russell Chapman ... > Do people ever post anything here which really would involve copyright. > Short stories, op-ed pieces etc? That's not the issue at hand -- this is about people who would like to attach explicit restrictions to their messages on the list. I don't have any problem with such restrictions, but I don't think they belong on the list. > Brad posts links to his web site, as does Dr Brin, whenever they post > stuff like that. > Can't we just say that any such disclaimers will be ignored? Seems a bit sticky to define "such disclaimers," and I'm not sure that a blanket "ignore" as a list policy holds much water. > To take it to the other extreme - can we have a filter on the mailer > daemon that holds all posts containing the word copyright for moderation? Yes, we could. Interesting notion. But it calls for clear criteria about what would be allowed by the moderators. > Maybe it would be best just to ignore messages which contain the > disclaimers, as Erik suggested, even though it requires a level of > co-operation not often seen. Yes. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Gary L. Nunn ... > My suggestion would be to make the policy painfully simple in both > language and understanding: > > "By posting to Brin-L, you understand and agree that your post can and > will be archived and be made publicly available." > > > It does not need to be any more complicated than that. :-) Why, I believe you may be correct, sir! I guess my concern here is that people glance at policies when they join, then never look at them again. But maybe that doesn't matter. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 07:23 PM 2/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: One way to handle it, instead of making new rules, would be for as many people as possible to simply state that they refuse to reply to any message with a legal notice in it. If enough people adopt such a policy, the offending legal notices are likely to disappear. -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I've been following that policy for almost a year now. Kevin T. - VRWC LEGAL NOTICE - Where's the beer? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> > My suggestion would be to make the policy painfully simple in both > > language and understanding: > > > > "By posting to Brin-L, you understand and agree that your > post can and > > will be archived and be made publicly available." > > > > > > It does not need to be any more complicated than that. :-) > > Why, I believe you may be correct, sir! I guess my concern > here is that people glance at policies when they join, then > never look at them again. But maybe that doesn't matter. > Nick This is very true. So on the "subscribe" page or welcome letter, put the disclaimer in big flashing, obnoxious colored letters so it can't be missed. If it is missed and someone whines, just refer them back to the policy. Or, simply make it part of the infamous Brin-L FAQ's. No policy or method will be fool proof, no matter how you slice or dice the verbiage or how you deliver it to them. The good news is that this will not be an issue to 99.9% of the subscribers. For the ones that take exception to it, make a public list announcement that says "After (insert date here) be aware that by posting to Brin-L, you are agreeing to this policy". If they disagree with the policy, then they have the ability to freely choose not to post to Brin-L Again, make it very plain and very simple. The method to the madness of simplicity makes it difficult for someone to squabble and pick apart words. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Gary L. Nunn wrote: My suggestion would be to make the policy painfully simple in both language and understanding: "By posting to Brin-L, you understand and agree that your post can and will be archived and be made publicly available." It does not need to be any more complicated than that. :-) Here, here! __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama => [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > Behalf Of Nick Arnett > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 9:58 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > > Behalf Of Gary L. Nunn > >... > > > My suggestion would be to make the policy painfully simple in both > > language and understanding: > > > > "By posting to Brin-L, you understand and agree that your post can and > > will be archived and be made publicly available." > > > > > > It does not need to be any more complicated than that. :-) > > Why, I believe you may be correct, sir! I guess my concern here is that > people glance at policies when they join, then never look at them again. > But maybe that doesn't matter. > > Nick It doesn't matter, and I personally don't think anything more than this is required. IMO, the less active moderation the better. Did I just channel Erik? Jon Ivanova: "Welcome to Babylon 5, the last best hope for a quick buck." Sheridan: "Commander" Ivanova: "But it's just demeaning. We're not just some deep space franchise. This station is about something." ~B5 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Gary L. Nunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:34:15 -0500 > But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting > or replying to > a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened > jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. > JJ This is true, but in reality this is a different issue than the copyright question. My apologies!! JJ _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
The last time the copyright issue came up, I ended up receiving the following threat: I will remove you from the list entirely if you don't drop this nonsense now. I am completely serious. If I read about this issue in a single message from you, personal or to the list, you're gone, history. And you won't be welcome back. So, before responding to this "policy proposal", there is one question that needs to be answered. Am I even *allowed* to participate in this discussion, or is this a case of "your opinion is not important, so keep your mouth shut or you'll be thrown off the list"? Jeroen "Covering my six" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
I wrote... > >This is true, but in reality this is a different issue than the > >copyright question. JJ wrote... > My apologies!! Sorry, I didn't mean that to come across as being "snippy" or short, I just meant that even though you have an excellent point, those threats will happen regardless of what policy is in place, and even the perfect copyright or posting policy would not eliminate the potential for those threats. Gary Hoping I didn't offend you maru. :-) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Nick Arnett wrote: > So... there are two things that I'd like to discuss: Is such a policy a > good idea? If so, does the wording above accomplish it? Whaddya say? It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you please, without asking any of us. Sonja GCU: Fake democracy :o( ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:45:54 +0100 Nick Arnett wrote: > So... there are two things that I'd like to discuss: Is such a policy a > good idea? If so, does the wording above accomplish it? Whaddya say? It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you please, without asking any of us. Sonja GCU: Fake democracy :o( But he *is* asking, and in good faith, it seems. Jon _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: > > Nick Arnett wrote: > > > So... there are two things that I'd like to discuss: Is such a policy a > > good idea? If so, does the wording above accomplish it? Whaddya say? > > It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you please, without asking > any of us. It *is* Nick's server, and if there's a major legal problem, it's Nick's ass. If there's a major problem of some other nature that could affect him negatively, it's still *his* ass. Nick would be well within his rights to do whatever he thinks he needs to do to cover his ass, without input from anyone else. He *is* asking us, though, which means he values the opinions of people who don't have as much on the line as he does. And I appreciate this. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 10:41:29AM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: > > It *is* Nick's server, and if there's a major legal problem, it's Nick's > ass. If there's a major problem of some other nature that could affect him > negatively, it's still *his* ass. > > Nick would be well within his rights to do whatever he thinks he needs to do > to cover his ass, without input from anyone else. > > He *is* asking us, though, which means he values the opinions of people who > don't have as much on the line as he does. And I appreciate this. Me too. Well said. Despite my occasional disagreement with Nick about moderating what or how people say things, I don't disagree with Nick here because this is entirely different. This is a *LEGAL* matter, i.e., something that can have real life repercussions. Like Dan has better explained elsewhere, I think it is best to keep the list as free of real-life consequences as possible. However, I still think the best way to handle this is for as many people as possible to state that they have adopted a policy of not replying to messages with legal notices. -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 10:41:29AM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: > > > > It *is* Nick's server, and if there's a major legal problem, it's Nick's > > ass. If there's a major problem of some other nature that could affect him > > negatively, it's still *his* ass. > > > > Nick would be well within his rights to do whatever he thinks he needs to do > > to cover his ass, without input from anyone else. > > > > He *is* asking us, though, which means he values the opinions of people who > > don't have as much on the line as he does. And I appreciate this. > > Me too. Well said. Despite my occasional disagreement with Nick about > moderating what or how people say things, I don't disagree with Nick > here because this is entirely different. This is a *LEGAL* matter, i.e., > something that can have real life repercussions. Like Dan has better > explained elsewhere, I think it is best to keep the list as free of > real-life consequences as possible. > > However, I still think the best way to handle this is for as many people > as possible to state that they have adopted a policy of not replying to > messages with legal notices. > I agree I'm convinced I'm on xponent Part Of The Solution Maru rob You are a fluke of the universe. You have no right to be here. And whether you can hear it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
In a message dated 2/11/2003 7:45:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you > please, without asking > any of us. This is clearly unfair. Nick has been trying to do his best for all of us. I have had disagreements with him (in the distant past about natural selection) but in this regard I believe he has acted honorably and in the best interest of the list. Nick has always been upfront about his activities and when he asked for an opinion about this issue he really wants our opinion. Because he hosts the list there are potential legal consequences for him and he has a right to protect himself and us ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Robert Seeberger wrote: Eric wrote: However, I still think the best way to handle this is for as many people as possible to state that they have adopted a policy of not replying to messages with legal notices. I agree I'm convinced I'm on Me too. Doug xROU Bandwagon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Erik Reuter wrote: > On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 10:41:29AM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: > > > > It *is* Nick's server, and if there's a major legal problem, it's Nick's > > ass. If there's a major problem of some other nature that could affect him > > negatively, it's still *his* ass. > > > > Nick would be well within his rights to do whatever he thinks he needs to do > > to cover his ass, without input from anyone else. > > > > He *is* asking us, though, which means he values the opinions of people who > > don't have as much on the line as he does. And I appreciate this. > > Me too. Well said. Despite my occasional disagreement with Nick about > moderating what or how people say things, I don't disagree with Nick > here because this is entirely different. This is a *LEGAL* matter, i.e., > something that can have real life repercussions. Like Dan has better > explained elsewhere, I think it is best to keep the list as free of > real-life consequences as possible. Seen the heat I'm getting for my shorthand remark, in my own defence I feel I need to clarify what I meant. I think that however noble Nick asking the list about policy looks, I (as in me, myself, as a person ;o) ) am just not convinced that this would also imply that Nick will (not sure of the correct tense I need to use here) refrain from implementing any policy he wants to, even if a lot of people disagree. But that is *my* opinion. I think I'm entitled to it and as such put it to the list even if it is totally contrary to the opinion of the list majority. that is.. unless I'm not aware of it opposing the current listpolicy that is... ;o) BTW, before I get skinned again that last remark was a joke. Seee I even used a smiley. Seen as things are, the rest of the list seems to be in favour of this policy... so much the better for Nick.:o) I (as in me, myself as a person ;o)) don't like more rules and regulations, so I feel it isn't a good idea. But as I said, it is Nick's list so he _can_ do whatever he likes. Sonja GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 01:43:22PM +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: > Seen the heat I'm getting for my shorthand remark, in my own defence > I feel I need to clarify what I meant. I think that however noble > Nick asking the list about policy looks, I (as in me, myself, as a > person ;o) ) am just not convinced that this would also imply that > Nick will (not sure of the correct tense I need to use here) refrain > from implementing any policy he wants to, even if a lot of people > disagree. That is how I understood your comment the first time. And I think Julia did too, as she explained that if it is a matter with real life consequences for Nick, then he is NOT acting unethically by not following majority opinion in favor of his own "ass". I am noticing a pattern here. When people disagree with you, you have been assuming that they didn't understand what you meant, rather than that they truly disagree with you. Also, you seemed concerned that people expressed strong disagreement with your opinion. If you want to express an opinion, don't you think you should be prepared to take some "heat" if people want to express their contrary opinions? Just a few thoughts. I could be wrong, but that is my opinion and "I think I'm entitled to it". > I (as in me, myself as a person ;o)) don't like more rules and > regulations, so I feel it isn't a good idea. But as I said, it is > Nick's list so he _can_ do whatever he likes. A legal notice is very much a rule or regulation. I haven't seen you expressing discontent at those. -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Erik Reuter wrote: > That is how I understood your comment the first time. And I think > Julia did too, as she explained that if it is a matter with real > life consequences for Nick, then he is NOT acting unethically by not > following majority opinion in favor of his own "ass". I don't think I disagreed with that. But I'm not too keen on the procedure followed either. Either it has or it hasn't real life consequences. If it does, Nick should act and be done with it. If it doesn't he should stop making such a fuss. I feel that either way it isn't our call, especially since reading Nick's original post does make it appear differently. But I could still be pleasantly surprised by Nicks actions. So, I guess we just have to wait and see what happens. :o) > I am noticing a pattern here. When people disagree with you, you have > been assuming that they didn't understand what you meant, rather than > that they truly disagree with you. Yes, that is true and you noticed correctly. I'm sorry if I annoy people by doing that (especially when I started out with a somewhat flippant remark). But I'd rather overclarify something beforehand, especially when I'm not sure whether it was understood as I intended it. The reason I've taken to doing that is, because I noticed that there currently is a very low tolerance for mistakes made by non native speakers with a good grasp of the English language. There is no room allowed for error, especially with respect to interpretation. It is something I've had to deal with in Brussels a lot. I found that speaking the same language can be a major obstacle when there are differences in culture. So before I go get heated up and start a heated discussion with someone I just want to know the sentiments involved. > Also, you seemed concerned that people expressed strong disagreement > with your opinion. If you want to express an opinion, don't you think > you should be prepared to take some "heat" if people want to express > their contrary opinions? It is not 'merely' the fact that strong disagreement was expressed, but it is the hostility I perceived from some of those responses. Hence my second clarifying respons using all those smileys and stuff to show I'm of good will, albeit opposite will to the rest of the list. I'm afraight you will just have to forgive me, that because I'm not a native speaker, I first try to 'get' whether hostility is merely perceived by me or is really present. On average the approach works well enough for me, because a second response usually clarifies it for me. > Just a few thoughts. I could be wrong, but that is my opinion and "I > think I'm entitled to it". Of course you are. :o) > > I (as in me, myself as a person ;o)) don't like more rules and > > regulations, so I feel it isn't a good idea. But as I said, it is > > Nick's list so he _can_ do whatever he likes. > > A legal notice is very much a rule or regulation. I haven't seen you > expressing discontent at those. Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually really don't care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I usually don't even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands there is no way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US. But remembering where the policy notice idea had it's origin and what made it crop up it's ugly head, I think it is somewhat childish. Grown ups poking each other in the tummy to see who gets annoyed first. On top of that I really feel that this list isn't important enough to get worked up about 'copyright', one way or the other. So I'd classify it as unnecessary and over the top. But that is just li'll silly ol' me. ;o) However what I'd advise anybody to do is that if one really doesn't feel comfortable with legal notices, just work around them. Write a response as something that stands on its own, bin messages containing them or just plain ignore all of it and continue to play with the other kids on the list.;o). Sonja :o) VFP: Legal notice: No legal notice. ;o) GCU: Tower of Babel ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten ... > I (as in me, myself as a person ;o)) don't like more rules and > regulations, so I > feel it isn't a good idea. But as I said, it is Nick's list so he _can_ do > whatever he likes. I don't see this as *my* list, even though it operates via server. That's why I don't use the phrase "list owner," but "list manager" instead. I regard that role as stewardship, not ownership. I have a greater ability to do damage to the list, but just as it managed to migrate from Cornell to my server, it could migrate again. I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could do anything I want. When list managers, like other community leaders, forget that they are accountable to the community, they often lose their leadership position. I've certainly seen that happen more than once. This is not a democracy, but that doesn't mean it is totalitarian. It's far closer to anarchy than either of those, and we have some strong voices calling for it to remain so. Seeing your later posting, I should add that several people have asked, all off-list IIRC, for a discussion of Jeroen's legal notice, which I find bothersome, too. At the risk of being paternalistic, I'll note that some people were quietly following a policy of not ever replying to a message with that notice, and I wasn't sure that Jeroen even realized. But many have spoken up along those line since we began the discussion. I feel like adding a reminder that anyone can start a new list... but get a creepy notion that that's something like Bill Gates saying that anyone is free to write their own operating system. This particular list, like Windows, has momentum that takes it out of the realm of pure regulation by competition, into a zone where one should adopt an attitude of stewardship. Clay Shirky's essay, which The Fool posted to the list, is evidence that there are natural barriers to competition -- another reason not to imagine that anyone owns the phenomenon that is a list. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 15:56 10-2-2003 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: Now that I'm getting some energy back, I propose that it's time to discuss the list and copyright. Jeroen's legal notice is inappropriate, I believe, so I'd like to propose a new list policy that would deal with such matters as simply as possible. So here is my proposal: COPYRIGHT POLICY The intent of this policy is to ensure that postings to this list are treated no differently than postings to similar Internet-based mailing lists. Therefore, your postings may not contain language that would alter others' rights to make copies. This policy is not intended to define such rights, which are determined and evolve in other venues. If you want to introduce a "copyright policy", you should at least be consistent. If you are going to impose a rule that disallows people to make certain reservations about copyright, you must also disallow the posting of (parts of) copyrighted articles that have been posted elsewhere -- FREX, CNN reports. Are you willing to spend the necessary time and effort on policing the list for copyright violations? Are you willing to spend the necessary time and effort on moderating those members who commit such violations? Are you willing to spend the necessary time and effort on reporting copyright violators to the copyright owners? If not, then you should withdraw the proposal. So... there are two things that I'd like to discuss: Is such a policy a good idea? No, because it will turn this list even more into a moderated list than you already have. If so, does the wording above accomplish it? No, because you leave out enough to make it inconsistent. Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 19:23 10-2-2003 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: One way to handle it, instead of making new rules, would be for as many people as possible to simply state that they refuse to reply to any message with a legal notice in it. If enough people adopt such a policy, the offending legal notices are likely to disappear. How childish. Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 10:43 11-2-2003 +1000, Russell Chapman wrote: Do people ever post anything here which really would involve copyright. Short stories, op-ed pieces etc? Not really. David Brin has done that in the past a few times, but that's pretty much it. To take it to the other extreme - can we have a filter on the mailer daemon that holds all posts containing the word copyright for moderation? Technically, it should be possible to do so. However, the question is: are the list admins willing to spend the necessary time and effort on moderating such posts? Especially given the fact that all (or almost all) those posts will only have the word "copyright" in them because someone copied an article from somewhere else and included the copyright notice of that article. Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 01:18 11-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote: But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or replying to a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? The use of the word "threat" suggests that the consequences would be very unpleasant for the person who sends the message. However, if an on-list message is published elsewhere, it cannot do any damage that the original posting couldn't already do, so the poster would be the person responsible for any consequences, not the person who posts the message elsewhere. As for off-list messages: if they are friendly and reasonable, making them public can not do any damage. If they are unfriendly (FREX, flames) then the poster still should not complain if his message is made public. That poster is responsible for his/her own behaviour; if s/he doesn't want the world to know s/he was flaming, then s/he should not engage in that activity in the first place. Jeroen "You do the crime, you do the time" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 18:58 10-2-2003 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: That's not the issue at hand -- this is about people who would like to attach explicit restrictions to their messages on the list. I don't have any problem with such restrictions One of your own posts contradicts this. I have a recent message somewhere that has my Legal Notice in it, followed by you saying "No, no, a thousand times no". So, unless you suddenly changed your mind you *do* have a problem with it. Jeroen "Architectus Tabularium" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 13:45 11-2-2003 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk wrote: It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you please, without asking any of us. It is not *his* list, it is *our* list. If anyone could be said to "own" the list, it would be Hector Yee -- the founder of this list. Nick doesn't *own* Brin-L. He *hosts* it and as a result he is a list-admin, but he doesn't *own* it. He doesn't own it anymore than www.brin-l.com is owned by Yahoo!GeoCities (on whose servers the website is running) or by Arbor Domains (the Registrar for the domain). Jeroen "Architectus Websiticum" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 10:41 11-2-2003 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: It *is* Nick's server, and if there's a major legal problem, it's Nick's ass. What would have to happen here to cause a "major legal problem" for him? I certainly can't think of anything that would cause such a problem. If there's a major problem of some other nature that could affect him negatively, it's still *his* ass. What sort of "major problem" would that be? Again, can't think of anything that would cause such a problem. Nick would be well within his rights to do whatever he thinks he needs to do to cover his ass, without input from anyone else. If "doing whatever he thinks he needs to do" is going to have an effect on other people on this list, then he should definitely take the input from others into consideration. He *is* asking us, though, which means he values the opinions of people who don't have as much on the line as he does. And I appreciate this. But what if he decides to ignore the opinions of people because they differ from his opinion? He has been playing judge, jury and executioner before, and it wouldn't be the first time that he even outright refuses to discuss his actions. Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 22:36 11-2-2003 -0500, Bob Zimmerman wrote: > It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you > please, without asking any of us. This is clearly unfair. Nick has been trying to do his best for all of us. I have had disagreements with him (in the distant past about natural selection) but in this regard I believe he has acted honorably and in the best interest of the list. Believe me, things look a hell of a lot different from where I'm sitting. Nothing "honorably" or "in the best interest of the list" about it. :-( Nick has always been upfront about his activities You should read the stuff he's been sending me *off-list*. It paints a very different picture of him -- and it's not a pretty one. :-( Insults. Threats of moderation. Threats of removal from the list. Threats of lawsuits. Outright refusal to discuss his actions. and when he asked for an opinion about this issue he really wants our opinion. But what if he decides to ignore our opinions because they happen to differ from his opinion? How are we going to prevent him from running this list like some Middle-Eastern dictator? Because he hosts the list there are potential legal consequences for him Such as? What could possibly happen (wrt the list) that would have legal consequences for him? And what would those "legal consequences" be? Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 07:53 12-2-2003 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote: I don't see this as *my* list, even though it operates via server. That's why I don't use the phrase "list owner," but "list manager" instead. I regard that role as stewardship, not ownership. I have a greater ability to do damage to the list, but just as it managed to migrate from Cornell to my server, it could migrate again. I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could do anything I want. The problem is, you *can* do pretty much anything you want. Other than leaving this list and set up an other one somewhere else, there is nothing we can do if you decide to run this list like a dictator. This is not a democracy, but that doesn't mean it is totalitarian. Given my experiences so far, I have some doubts about that. :-( Seeing your later posting, I should add that several people have asked, all off-list IIRC, for a discussion of Jeroen's legal notice, which I find bothersome, too. At the risk of being paternalistic, I'll note that some people were quietly following a policy of not ever replying to a message with that notice, and I wasn't sure that Jeroen even realized. I did notice a decline in the number of replies to my posts. But if people choose not to reply to my messages because of a Legal Notice, then I consider that to be their loss, not mine. I feel like adding a reminder that anyone can start a new list... but get a creepy notion that that's something like Bill Gates saying that anyone is free to write their own operating system. True. That's why you can do anything you want to this list. Nobody is going to setup a new Brin-L, and we can't force you to migrate Brin-L to someone else's server if we decide you have overstepped your authority as a list admin. Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:56:00 -0800 Now that I'm getting some energy back, I propose that it's time to discuss the list and copyright. Jeroen's legal notice is inappropriate, I believe, so I'd like to propose a new list policy that would deal with such matters as simply as possible... If I may, I'd like to get a word in this issue... I have known Nick for quite some time now (close to ten years), and he has always been known for been a man of outstanding character, a great sense of justice, and an intutive knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. I consider myself EXTREMELY LUCKY to have been able to share with him the golden days of Compuserve. Along with a community of international Sysops, who were tried and true professionals of their fields, and not mere amateurs, he gave shape to online policies in the top information service of its' time. And trust me, we faced A LOT of difficult situations and users, most of whom were ready to sue at the drop of a hat, after being given the slightest message of admonishment for breaking this-or-that forum or Cserve rule. The parameters he helped establish guided us succesfully through some very rough waters. That, I believe, more than qualifies Nick for being the administrator or owner, whatever you want to call him, of Brin-L. I have to agree with Julia 110%: Nick, as the current administrator of this list, has not only the right, but the duty to defend and protect both himself and the interests of the subscribers of the list. I cast my vote for establishing a policy that solves the copyright issues at hand, based on consensus of the list. I am in favor of seeing the rules written down carefully and specifically for all to follow. Then again, as an educator, I will be extremely biased towards the STRUCTURED approach to the solution of this little conundrum. :-) JJ P.S. By writing this message, I make it perfectly clear that I am rejecting all temptations to dignify with an answer messages that attempt to address serious adult and mature issues thru infantile displays of behavior, temper tantrums and name-calling which we would normally see in a Second Grade classroom. Have we seen those before? I dunno.. you be the judge. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > Behalf Of J. van Baardwijk > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:55 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > At 01:18 11-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote: > > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or replying > >to a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened > >jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't you? That was not a government policy you were complaining about, now was it? Jon ROU Thanks For Proving My Point ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 3:16 > Aan: 'Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors > David Brin and Gregory Benford.' > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or > > >replying to a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even > > >threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. > > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't > you? Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous subset of US citizens who see any and all criticism of the US and her citizens as "anti-Americanism". Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American, aren't you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it. Jeroen "Zero tolerance for intolerance" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:12 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 3:16 > > Aan: 'Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors > > David Brin and Gregory Benford.' > > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or > > > >replying to a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even > > > >threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. > > > > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? > > > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't > > you? > > Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous subset of US > citizens who see any and all criticism of the US and her citizens as > "anti-Americanism". > **You** are again using a negative stereotype to describe Americans. **That** is intolerant and arrogantly self-righteous behavior. As an example, I could easily have answered your post by saying "Lemme guess... a distrust of anything that smacks of fairness and authority AND no sense of personal responsibility? You MUST be Dutch, right?" I did not. Sterotypes are offensive. :( If you have a problem with someone, please attack their argument and not the poster. > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American, aren't > you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it. It's not obvious. Please explain. > Jeroen "Zero tolerance for intolerance" van Baardwijk But you'll freely spout a negative stereotype when it fits your purpose? Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:16:43 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:12 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 3:16 > > Aan: 'Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors > > David Brin and Gregory Benford.' > > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or > > > >replying to a message? The fact that such "consequences" are even > > > >threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list. > > > > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? > > > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't > > you? > > Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous subset of US > citizens who see any and all criticism of the US and her citizens as > "anti-Americanism". > **You** are again using a negative stereotype to describe Americans. **That** is intolerant and arrogantly self-righteous behavior. As an example, I could easily have answered your post by saying "Lemme guess... a distrust of anything that smacks of fairness and authority AND no sense of personal responsibility? You MUST be Dutch, right?" I did not. Sterotypes are offensive. :( Hi, Jon! Thanks for stepping in. You know you're winning an argument when the person you're up against resorts to name-calling and bigotry. Those are definitely the signs of an intelligent discussion. Need we say more? Who knows? Maybe now we know what Archie Bunker would've wrote if he were a member of this list. :) JJ Who cringes at the prospect of Bunker ever entering cyberspace... _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
JJ wrote, > Who knows? Maybe now we know what Archie Bunker would've > wrote if he were a > member of this list. :) Every post would have started out with someone being called "Meathead". :-) Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 13:17 > Aan: 'Killer Bs Discussion' > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American, > > aren't you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it. > > It's not obvious. Please explain. Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences. I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have only seen it coming from US citizens. Hence the observation "you're American, aren't you?". Jeroen "Zero tolerance for intolerance" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 6:39 AM Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > JJ > Who cringes at the prospect of Bunker ever entering cyberspace... To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle ourselves. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 07:45:29AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle > ourselves. I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot or computer would use for a human. -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 01:43 PM 2/12/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Sonja GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool Having your soul crash ten times a day and have to be rebooted each time, and getting incomprehensible error messages from your soul whenever it _was_ running, would be "cool"? Not to mention having Bill Gates own your soul and you have to periodically pay a licence fee to him in order to keep using it . . . -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: Nick Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > I feel like adding a reminder that anyone can start a new > list... > This particular list, like Windows, has momentum that takes it > out of the realm of pure regulation by > competition, into a zone where one should adopt an attitude > of stewardship. I would agree. There's something about this list. When I was fed up a while back, I went over to the Culture list. And it was fun. But there was something about Brin-l that brought me back. I don't know what it is. But it would be difficult, if not impossible, to start a new list that would have that same feel unless most of the active posters went over enmasse (sp?). Which isn't likely to happen. - jmh I Just Like You Guys Dammit Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually > really don't > care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I > usually don't > even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands > there is no > way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and > unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US. Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about this issue! - jmh Don't women get to do that to their spouses Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 12:27 PM 2/11/03 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: However, I still think the best way to handle this is for as many people as possible to state that they have adopted a policy of not replying to messages with legal notices. To be honest, I've just about stopped reading any messages with this subject line. Come on, people, it's an _e-mail list_, for crying out loud. Just a bunch of friends (nominally) who like sitting around shooting the breeze, but instead of doing it on someone's front porch, we're doing it via the Internet, where we can include people from all over the world. It isn't worth all this bickering. Personally, I don't care if anyone quotes what I write on this list or punches the delete key as soon as they see my name on a message, and I don't see why anyone else should. If you want to keep something private, send it privately and encrypt it, or use some method other than e-mail. If you want to send something privately to someone else on the list, and that person doesn't want to read it, that's his/her prerogative, just as it's the prerogative of anyone here to put my address into their killfile if they don't care to read what I have to say, or just as it's their prerogative to hang up the phone as soon as they recognize my voice, or just as it's their prerogative to toss any snail mail I might send to them unread into the round file as soon as they realize it's from me, and it's my prerogative to do the same to anyone else I don't want to hear from, like telemarketers and junk mailers. The First Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience.You have just as much right to ignore me as I have right to speak, and I can't legally or morally force you to listen. So, if someone says something on this list which offends you, reply to it, delete it, put that person in your killfile, or unsubscribe from the list in a huff. Your choice and yours alone. Though I'd really hate for anyone here to leave the list, as I value all of you and your opinions, even when I don't necessarily agree with them. Sometimes I learn the most from those with whom I disagree the strongest, whether I like it or not. Now, I am sick as the proverbial dog this morning--last night I nearly passed out in the middle of changing clothes after getting home after class (before I could even feed the cats)--and I came to the computer to e-mail in sick and cancel the class I'm supposed to teach in about 40 minutes or so (beats trying to play phone tag when you feel crummy) and for some reason thought I'd enjoy reading some of the accumulated mail in my box. I'm think I'm about to go back to bed. I hope the list will still be here and all of you will still be on it whenever I get up again. As I tell my cats, play nicely together while I'm trying to sleep. Love to you all. See you later. -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:27:47 -0600 At 01:43 PM 2/12/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Sonja GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool Having your soul crash ten times a day and have to be rebooted each time, and getting incomprehensible error messages from your soul whenever it _was_ running, would be "cool"? It would be worth it just to have an automatic SoulsSaver(tm). Think of all the happy Microsoft Christians. Not to mention having Bill Gates own your soul and you have to periodically pay a licence fee to him in order to keep using it . . I'm sure there would be a nice warez newsgroup I could download from. :) Jon _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Horn, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:55:51 -0600 > From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually > really don't > care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I > usually don't > even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands > there is no > way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and > unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US. Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about this issue! - jmh Don't women get to do that to their spouses Maru No, absolutely not! Not in a millio... Anyway, could Sonja make a video of it? Jon Humor is a Valid Literary Technique Maru _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: Horn, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 15:56 > Aan: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually really > > don't care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I > > usually don't even bother to read them, because legally in the > > Netherlands there is no way to enforce them. I imagine it would be > > equally difficult and unrewarding for anything concerning this list in > > the US. > > Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about > this issue! I think it would be more appropriate to whack those people on the head who are blowing this issue up to gigantic proportions, as if it is going to cost them loads of money and ruin their lives. Jeroen "Everything is relative" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
That's easy for you to say, Ronn. I wonder if you'd have the same opinion if you ran your own business and also hosted the Brin-L list on your own machine, thus exposing yourself to possible lawsuits, frivolous or otherwise. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
"Gary L. Nunn" wrote: > > JJ wrote, > > Who knows? Maybe now we know what Archie Bunker would've > > wrote if he were a > > member of this list. :) > > Every post would have started out with someone being called "Meathead". > :-) Or "dingbat". ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle > > ourselves. > > I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term > meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot > or computer > would use for a human. I don't think the show *could* be made today. I don't think anyone would take that sort of risk... - jmh All The More The Pity Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:38:08 +0100 > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 13:17 > Aan: 'Killer Bs Discussion' > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American, > > aren't you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it. > > It's not obvious. Please explain. Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences. The word "threat" does not suggest _extremely negative_ consequences. It merely identifies negative consequences. You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with proper usage. I'll be helpful: Threat is defined as "an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage." (m-w.com) Your "legal notice" essentially says you are not responsible for any damage that might result to others from direct and deliberate actions made by you. His use of the word was appropriate here. No exaggeration is being made. And, considering previous posts and actions by you with regard to this exact subject, one might reasonably expect you to understand what an actual threat is. I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have only seen it coming from US citizens. Well, we speak English as our native language. We would be expected to use it correctly, exactly as Jose did. Hence the observation "you're American, aren't you?". It's still stereotyping. It's still wrong. And, IMO, it's a rather hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line. Jon _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:43:45 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:38:08 +0100 > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 13:17 > Aan: 'Killer Bs Discussion' > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have only seen it coming from US citizens. Well, we speak English as our native language. We would be expected to use it correctly, exactly as Jose did. I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language... :-) Jon _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Jon Gabriel wrote: > It's still stereotyping. It's still wrong. And, IMO, it's a rather > hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero > tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line. Isn't that somewhat oxymoronic, anyway? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Horn, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:11:20 -0600 > From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle > > ourselves. > > I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term > meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot > or computer > would use for a human. Hmmm.. I wonder.. J walks to a brand-new ATM. Inserts his ATM card. Waits a little longer than he should, checking the options. All of a sudden, an electronic voice with a thick Brooklyn accent yells out: "Hey, MEATHEAD, gitovahe'e and press ENCHER, will ya?". I don't think the show *could* be made today. I don't think anyone would take that sort of risk... Wasn't that show great? I think sitcoms made a turn of the worse after "All In The Family" in the late 70's, and through most of the 80's. No other TV show in history could possibly insult and alienate so many ethnic groups in 21 minutes. :) JJ Who thinks the DVD's of the first 2 seasons of "All In The Family" are awesome. Two thumbs up. _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language... :-) Jon LOL!!! Good one. :) Puerto Rico has been a commonwealth/colony of the USA since 1898, after the end of the Hispanic-American war. I was educated by Dominican Sisters (from the States, of course) and have been working with the local and Federal Government, as well as International Schools and Universities, for the rest of my adult life. Trust me, my English may not be 100% perfect, but it's as much a part of my culture as a Whopper and an apple pie. :) JJ _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle > > ourselves. > > I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term > meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot > or computer > would use for a human. Hmmm.. I wonder.. J walks to a brand-new ATM. Inserts his ATM card. Waits a little longer than he should, checking the options. All of a sudden, an electronic voice with a thick Brooklyn accent yells out: "Hey, MEATHEAD, gitovahe'e and press ENCHER, will ya?". I don't think the show *could* be made today. I don't think anyone would take that sort of risk... Wasn't that show great? I think sitcoms made a turn of the worse after "All In The Family" in the late 70's, and through most of the 80's. No other TV show in history could possibly insult and alienate so many ethnic groups in 21 minutes. :) JJ Who thinks the DVD's of the first 2 seasons of "All In The Family" are awesome. Two thumbs up. The Jeffersons weren't bad either. I didn't know AitF was out on DVDbut can't imagine watching them either. For the amount of TV I watch, I have thought about sitcoms. I don't think they got worse after AitF. The show ended in 1983? Didn't know it was that long. MASH ended the same year with great fanfare, while AitF was wheezing for years, once Mike and Gloria left, even before that. (back to the point) In that time there wasn't much to be happy about. 1983 was still pretty bad in America.I'm trying to recall the sitcoms from then. Mork and Mindy started great but had some seriously bad episodes. (Although anything with Jonathan Winters is #1 in my book). Happy Days ended in 1985 and was never that great. (Just had a flashback of something I did after a show. Checked the program guide, it was Nov. 1976. Wow.) Soap was wonderful. Three Company? The end of MTM show? WKRP! That was funny. "They are dropping the turkeys out of the helicopter. .something is wrong! They aren't flying! Oh the humanity!" Okay maybe there was a decline. The sitcoms were a reflection of society. The country was nesting, parents and kids interacting in the home. Same as AitF with younger kids, except now the kids were playing the Archie Role. With Cheers of course being the exception. I hate Cheers. I liked it then but I can't stand to watch a re-run. Seriously other than Seinfeld and the Simpsons I don't like any sitcoms re-runs if they are more than five years old. Won't that be a better yardstick? Can you imagine watching any of the current sitcoms 30 years from now? Plus the hour long Drama was so dominant back in the early 80s. Some facts: * Norman Lear was the founder of "The People for the American Way." From 1980 to 1986, this group compelled the state of Texas to accept textbooks incorporating the theory of evolution. * In a NBC interview from Oct 15, 1985 Lear stated that people should not force religious views upon others. Kevin T. - VRWC ramblings r us Anyone read American Gods? I liked the little Dick Van Dyke show rewrite. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 10:43 AM 2/13/03 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: That's easy for you to say, Ronn. I wonder if you'd have the same opinion if you ran your own business and also hosted the Brin-L list on your own machine, thus exposing yourself to possible lawsuits, frivolous or otherwise. I don't have a machine capable of doing so, so that would not be a consideration. I have, however, considered offering to set up and manage Brin-L on one of the publicly-available servers (but not Yahoo!) if it came down to someone having to do that to prevent the list from going away entirely. I am absolutely _not_ saying that I have any desire to be list manager, just that I would consider doing that rather than seeing the list end. And perhaps you misinterpreted my "rant": I was saying "Let's all get off Nick's back and off everyone else's and start behaving like friends again instead of fighting and making threats." And as far as the issue of copyright of individual messages goes, everyone here who posts regularly has been on-line long enough to know that if you don't want something possibly made public at some future time, don't send it as e-mail, period, if for no other reason than because (at least in the US) e-mail archives can be subpoenaed in court cases. Going Back To Bed Maru -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Kevin Tarr wrote: > > Okay maybe there was a decline. The sitcoms were a reflection of society. > The country was nesting, parents and kids interacting in the home. Same as > AitF with younger kids, except now the kids were playing the Archie Role. > With Cheers of course being the exception. I hate Cheers. I liked it then > but I can't stand to watch a re-run. Seriously other than Seinfeld and the > Simpsons I don't like any sitcoms re-runs if they are more than five years > old. Won't that be a better yardstick? Can you imagine watching any of the > current sitcoms 30 years from now? Nope. I'd watch Barney Miller, though. That was my favorite sitcom when I was a wee lad. Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter & Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:16:04 -0600 if you don't want something possibly made public at some future time, don't send it as e-mail, period, if for no other reason than because (at least in the US) e-mail archives can be subpoenaed in court cases. Going Back To Bed Maru Sooo true.. That last line I read reminded me of the validity of emails in a court of law. I once had to help a colleague of mine with her divorce case. The evidence: her husband's emails to his lover. And mind you, they were written on his company's email account. They both worked on two different floors, so he made it a point to send his lover at least 3 emails a day. I had the pleasure, and honor, of sorting through his disks to uncover the incriminating evidence. I have never read such a large amount of pseudo-romantic hogwash. Not even in a romantic paperback novel. The amount of sugarcoat in those emails was so bad, that not even an ant would touch the diskettes. :) The husband in question was acting all high and mighty with his wife!! Demanding this, ordering that, and he almost obtained custody. UNTIL the judge took a look at the printouts, as well as a peek at the system date/system time stamp on the disk's directory. Good ol' DOS.. at least it was useful for something. That was it; an open and shut case. JJ _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:30 PM Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > >I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on > > > >Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language... > > > >:-) > > > >Jon > > > > LOL!!! Good one. :) > > Puerto Rico has been a commonwealth/colony of the USA since 1898, after the > end of the Hispanic-American war. I was educated by Dominican Sisters (from > the States, of course) and have been working with the local and Federal > Government, as well as International Schools and Universities, for the rest > of my adult life. Trust me, my English may not be 100% perfect, but it's as > much a part of my culture as a Whopper and an apple pie. :) > Whopper? Burger King is British owned IIRC. xponent Fun House Maru rob You are a fluke of the universe. You have no right to be here. And whether you can hear it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > - Original Message - > From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:30 PM > Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > > >I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on > > > > > >Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language... > > > > > >:-) > > > > > >Jon > > > > > > > LOL!!! Good one. :) > > > > Puerto Rico has been a commonwealth/colony of the USA since 1898, after > the > > end of the Hispanic-American war. I was educated by Dominican Sisters > (from > > the States, of course) and have been working with the local and Federal > > Government, as well as International Schools and Universities, for the > rest > > of my adult life. Trust me, my English may not be 100% perfect, but it's > as > > much a part of my culture as a Whopper and an apple pie. :) > > > Whopper? I thought he was talking about Bill's excuses to Hillary. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: > > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? Jon Gabriel wrote: > > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American > > > attitudes, aren't you? Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: > > Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous > > subset of US citizens who see any and all criticism of the US > > and her citizens as "anti-Americanism". This is not a cute and witty thing to say, Jeroen. Jon Gabriel wrote: > **You** are again using a negative stereotype to > describe Americans. **That** is intolerant and > arrogantly self-righteous behavior. He said "subset of US Citizens", Jon, probably in an attempt to avoid turning it into a stereotype for all Americans. Are you trying to say that no group of people who fit that description exists? I'd be quick to disagree with you if you are. Regardless, you're taking offense too quickly, which is much too easy to do in an email forum. Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: > > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked > > "you're American, aren't you". And no, > > anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it. Jon Gabriel wrote: > It's not obvious. Please explain. I agree with Jon, it's not obvious. Please explain, Jeroen. -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > Behalf Of Matt Grimaldi > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:10 AM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: > > > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you? > > Jon Gabriel wrote: > > > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American > > > > attitudes, aren't you? > > Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: > > > Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous > > > subset of US citizens who see any and all criticism of the US > > > and her citizens as "anti-Americanism". > > > This is not a cute and witty thing to say, Jeroen. > No, it was trolling. But it allowed me to prove a point so I challenged it anyway. Don't worry, it won't devolve into a flamewar. > > Jon Gabriel wrote: > > **You** are again using a negative stereotype to > > describe Americans. **That** is intolerant and > > arrogantly self-righteous behavior. > > He said "subset of US Citizens", Jon, probably in an > attempt to avoid turning it into a stereotype for > all Americans. Are you trying to say that no group > of people who fit that description exists? I'd be > quick to disagree with you if you are. His original comment did not focus on a subset of Americans. If it had, he would have said something along the lines of "Let me guess, you're a member of that group of Americans who think they should sue everything." A subset exists. I don't deny that. Some Americans are fat too. It would also be offensive if Jeroen walked up to an obese person and said "You're huge! You *must* be an American." > Regardless, you're taking offense too quickly, > which is much too easy to do in an email forum. Perhaps. It's true that he does have the ability to offend me quickly. It IS interesting that on a list with over 100 active posters from a variety of backgrounds and political POV's that he is the only one who does so, isn't it? I and other people have noted publicly that this is a behavioral pattern. I refuted Jeroen's oft-made objection that he routinely criticizes American policy and not the American people, but is then unfairly accused of being anti-American. Since I've made my point, I doubt I'll need to post further on the subject. Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > Behalf Of Julia Thompson > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:18 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > Jon Gabriel wrote: > > > It's still stereotyping. It's still wrong. And, IMO, it's a rather > > hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero > > tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line. > > Isn't that somewhat oxymoronic, anyway? > Gosh, we should play him some live bagpipe music as punishment! :-) *grin* I ripped these 47 bagpipe jokes from robertrife.com: Ireland gave the Scots the bagpipes . . . and they still haven't gotten the joke yet. Now, here's a thought: How do you know when it's time to tune your bagpipes? Q. What do you call 100 bagpipes at the bottom of the sea? A. A good start. Q. Why do pipers walk when they play? A. They are trying to get away from the sound! A2. Moving targets are harder to hit. Q. Why does everyone hate the bagpipes right off? A. Saves time. Q. How can you tell the difference between bagpipe songs? A. By their names. Q. What do you call a happy song played on the pipes? A. Ha! Yeah, right. Q. What's one thing you never hear people say? A. Oh, that's the bagpipe player's Porsche. Q. How do you get two bagpipes to play a perfect unison? A. Shoot one. Q. What's the definition of a minor second? A. Two bagpipes playing in unison. "Gentleman" defined: Someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but doesn't. Q. What's the difference between a bagpipe and an onion? A. No one cries when you chop up an bagpipe. Q. What's the difference between a bagpipe and a trampoline? A. You take off your shoes when you jump on a trampoline. Q. Why did the chicken cross the road? A. To get away from the bagpipe recital. Q. Why do bagpipers leave their cases on their dashboards? A. So they can park in handicapped zones. Q. How can you tell a bagpiper with perfect pitch? A. He can throw a set into the middle of a pond and not hit any of the ducks. Q. How is playing a bagpipe like throwing a javelin blindfolded? A. You don't have to be very good to get people's attention. Q. What's the difference between the Great Highland and Northumbrian bagpipes? A. The GHB burns longer [but the Northumbrian burns hotter] Q. What do you call bagpiper with half a brain? A. Gifted. Q. What's the difference between a lawnmower and a bagpipe? A. You can tune the lawnmower, and the owner's neighbors are upset if you borrow the lawnmower and don't return it. Q. How many bagpipers does it take to change a light bulb? A. Five, one to handle the bulb and the other four to contemplate how Bill Livingston would have done it. Q. How many bagpipers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. Five --one to do it, and four to criticise his fingering style. Q. If you were lost in the woods, who would you trust for directions, an in-tune bagpipe player, an out of tune bagpipe player, or Santa Claus? A. The out of tune bagpipe player. The other two indicate you have been hallucinating. Q. How do you make a chain saw sound like a bagpipe? A. Add vibrato. Q. What's the difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead bagpiper in the road? A. Skid marks in front of the snake. Q. What's the difference between a dead bagpiper in the road and a dead country singer in the road? A. The country singer may have been on the way to a recording session. Q. What's the range of a bagpipe? A. Twenty yards if you have a good arm. Q. What do you call someone who hangs around with musicians? A. A bagpiper. Someone once said, "You don't PLAY bagpipes, you WIELD them." Q. What did the bagpiper get on his I.Q. test? A. Drool. Q. What's the definition of a quarter tone? A. A bagpiper tuning his drones. Q. Why are bagpipers fingers like lightning? A. They rarely strike the same spot twice. Q. How can you tell if a bagpipe is out of tune? A. Someone is blowing into it. Q. Why is a bagpipe like a Scud missile? A. Both are offensive and inaccurate. Q. How do you know if a bagpipe band is at your front door? A. No one knows when to come in. Q. Why did the bagpiper get mad at the drummer? A. He moved a drone and wouldn't tell him which one. Q. What do you call ten bagpipes at the bottom of the ocean? A. A start. Scottish Scholar's conversation with Mother: "And how do you find the English students, Donald?" she asked. "Mother," he replied. "They're such terrible, noisy people. The one on that side keeps banging his head against the wall, and won't stop. The one on the other side screams and screams and screams, away into the night." "Oh Donald! How do you manage to put up
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross > exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences. > I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative > consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have > only seen it coming from US citizens. Hence the observation "you're > American, aren't you?". Adding a 'smiley' or '' to that remark would have made it clear you were knowingly using a stereotype in a friendly way. At least it would have prevented a dozen or so messages from being send unnecessarily and it would have saved you the bother of having to defend yourself against a dozen or so attacks. Sonja GCU smileys are our friends ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote: > At 01:43 PM 2/12/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: > > >Sonja > >GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool > > Having your soul crash ten times a day and have to be rebooted each time, > and getting incomprehensible error messages from your soul whenever it > _was_ running, would be "cool"? > > Not to mention having Bill Gates own your soul and you have to periodically > pay a licence fee to him in order to keep using it . . . > > -- Ronn! :) OK, I give up!..:o) crash... reboot. error 2012 occured in modul soul.com at 23ab000345109hf..bla bla bla. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
"Horn, John" wrote: > > From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually > > really don't > > care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I > > usually don't > > even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands > > there is no > > way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and > > unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US. > > Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about > this issue! > > - jmh Will you protect me afterwards? > Don't women get to do that to their spouses Maru Yeah, we do... but ... my marble rolling pin still is in a box somewhere. And without that at hand I don't dare attempt it. He'd probably defend himself so Sonja ;o) GCU Coward ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote: > > > The First > Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to > express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive > some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience. only.> Yep now that is exactly what I was trying to tell everybody. > > I hope the list will still be here and all of you will still be on it > whenever I get up again. As I tell my cats, play nicely together while I'm > trying to sleep. > > Indeed. > Love to you all. See you later. Yuck... that is so soppy. Stop it! :o) It totally ruins the picture I had of you Ronn Sonja GCU Hope you feel better soon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 10:44 AM 2/14/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: "Ronn!Blankenship" wrote: > > > The First > Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to > express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive > some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience. only.> Yep now that is exactly what I was trying to tell everybody. > > I hope the list will still be here and all of you will still be on it > whenever I get up again. As I tell my cats, play nicely together while I'm > trying to sleep. > > Indeed. > Love to you all. See you later. Yuck... that is so soppy. Stop it! :o) It totally ruins the picture I had of you Ronn I figured that if sarcasm didn't work, I'd try soppiness . . . Sonja GCU Hope you feel better soon Thank you. I seem to, after spending most all of Thursday in bed asleep . . . -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Robert said: > Burger King is British owned IIRC. It's owned by Diageo, which is also the world's largest purveyor of alcohol - it owns Guinness and various other alcohol manufacturers (including Johnnie Walker whisky and Smirnoff vodka). Rich GCU Onward March Of Globalisation ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:26:50AM +, Richard Baker wrote: > It's owned by Diageo, which is also the world's largest purveyor of > alcohol - it owns Guinness and various other alcohol manufacturers > (including Johnnie Walker whisky and Smirnoff vodka). Not anymore. Diageo sold Pillsbury last year, and just last December they inked the deal to sell Burger King for $1.5B to private investors led by Texas Pacific Group (it was announced on Friday the 13th). They say they want to focus on "premium alcoholic drinks". -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Erik said: > Not anymore. Diageo sold Pillsbury last year, and just last December > they inked the deal to sell Burger King for $1.5B to private investors > led by Texas Pacific Group (it was announced on Friday the 13th). Ah, that's what I get for extracting information from a book published early last year (_Open World_ by Philippe Legrain, a pretty good defence of globalisation). Rich GCU Struggling To Keep Up ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Nick Arnett wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > > Behalf Of Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten > ... > > > I (as in me, myself as a person ;o)) don't like more rules and > > regulations, so I > > feel it isn't a good idea. But as I said, it is Nick's list so he _can_ do > > whatever he likes. > > I don't see this as *my* list, even though it operates via server. That's > why I don't use the phrase "list owner," but "list manager" instead. I > regard that role as stewardship, not ownership. I have a greater ability to > do damage to the list, but just as it managed to migrate from Cornell to my > server, it could migrate again. I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could > do anything I want. That you realise that, shows some good sense on your part. You know the limits of what you can get away with. (This isn't intended as harsh as it probably sounds, but I couln't find a better phrasing.) > When list managers, like other community leaders, > forget that they are accountable to the community, they often lose their > leadership position. I've certainly seen that happen more than once. > > This is not a democracy, but that doesn't mean it is totalitarian. It's far > closer to anarchy than either of those, and we have some strong voices > calling for it to remain so. Yes, mine for one. I like the brin-l anarchy. It gives interesting ideas a place and at times even the strangest voices are heard. I've been a long time member on this list (even if my ranking doesn't show it :o)) and there is no end to the weirdnesses I've seen here. I'm also on the Culture list but by far this list has something the Culture doesn't. But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal trouble for hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further policies added, etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe Ronn offered already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public domain where the current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone. I'd even help if I was asked to do so (not that anybody would trust me enough for it, but as symbolism goes ;o)) > Seeing your later posting, I should add that several people have asked, all > off-list IIRC, for a discussion of Jeroen's legal notice, which I find > bothersome, too. Yes I imagine it is. Unfortunatly more so for the list ...eh... managers :o) then for the rest of us. Pardon me saying so but it sounds a bit like some of our current members have been ... eh eh. running to daddy.. > At the risk of being paternalistic, I'll note that some > people were quietly following a policy of not ever replying to a message > with that notice, and I wasn't sure that Jeroen even realized. But many > have spoken up along those line since we began the discussion. It is a policy that has been used (succesfully) in the past. It won't help everytime (as the situation with DB/Gord and then Mark and on several occasions Jeroen and also a few other cases has shown) but on average it is a good policy. Contrary to popular believe freedom has a price. And if that means that we can get inconvenienced from time to time by a bit of a racous well I don't mind. I mean I've realised a long time ago that I don't have to participate in any of that and I don't even have to read it if I don't like it/don't wan't to. :o) And I believe that as long as there is a majority of us willing to ... relent, have fun, get serious, get to the hart of things, get clobbered for throwing in something totally controversial I think we'll be OK. > Just one more thing. So far I've seen a lot to contradict your statement that this list isn't owned but merely managed by you. Unfortunatly I have to stand by my opinion that for all present purposes you own the list. I base this opinion on the past experiences where you have been acting accordingly on several occasions, always with apparantly good and understandable reasons but still. The fact that you admit that it isn't a democracy (and correct me if I'm wrong I understood that remark as implying that you'll have the last word no matter what) enforces my opinion in this matter. That it isn't a totallitarian (yet?) regime doesn't really help much to convince me of the oposite being true. Sonja :o) GCU: Ungratefull brat. ;o) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:52:08AM +, Richard Baker wrote: > GCU Struggling To Keep Up Could almost be turned into an ad for a brokerage or investment management firm: "Today's global market moves faster than ever. Are you struggling to keep up? We can help..." -- "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:48:30 -0600 Whopper? Burger King is British owned IIRC. xponent Fun House Maru rob DOH! JJ _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 00:25 13-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote: I have known Nick for quite some time now (close to ten years), and he has always been known for been a man of outstanding character, a great sense of justice, and an intutive knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. I get this feeling that you are talking about an entirely different Nick Arnett; the Nick Arnett *I* know has shown himself to have a questionable character and have a somewhat twisted interpretation of the concepts "justice" and "right & wrong". And I have the e-mail messages to back that. That, I believe, more than qualifies Nick for being the administrator or owner, whatever you want to call him, of Brin-L. Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified for the job. I have to agree with Julia 110%: Nick, as the current administrator of this list, has not only the right, but the duty to defend and protect both himself and the interests of the subscribers of the list. Then explain how silencing a listmember (by moderation, threats of moderation, and threats of banishment), refusing to discuss his actions, and even telling a member "if you even *mention* either on-list or off-list, I will throw you off the list forever" is "defending himself and the interests of the subscribers". Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 08:56 13-2-2003 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote: The First Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience. However, the US Constitution and its Amendments don't apply to this list. Your First Amendment right to free speech only means that the US government cannot force you to shut up when you say something they disagree with. Or at least, that's what someone else on this list said last year, when I claimed the US Constitution gave me the right to free speech. Jeroen "You have the right to remain silent" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 10:43 13-2-2003 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: That's easy for you to say, Ronn. I wonder if you'd have the same opinion if you ran your own business and also hosted the Brin-L list on your own machine, thus exposing yourself to possible lawsuits, frivolous or otherwise. Nick knew about those (alleged) risks when he offered to host the list. If he doesn't want to be exposed to those risks, then he shouldn't have made his offer in the first place, and should transfer the list to someone else's server. Jeroen "In for a penny, in for a pound" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:54:57 +0100 But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal trouble for hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further policies added, etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe Ronn offered already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public domain where the current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone. Hi, Sonja. Why should he finish his work with the list? Trying to reduce ones liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any other similar ones in the real world. I'd rather have someone with these intentions in charge of things around these parts. My two cents.. JJ _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Jeroen said: > Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified > for the job. In your opinion, who here is qualified to be list owner/manager? Rich, who is obviously disqualified on account of being a traitor. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Richard Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:42 AM Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > Jeroen said: > > > Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified > > for the job. > > In your opinion, who here is qualified to be list owner/manager? > > Rich, who is obviously disqualified on account of being a traitor. To whom? Not that I doubt that you are a traitor, I just see so many possibilities. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Dan said: > To whom? Not that I doubt that you are a traitor, I just see so many > possibilities. :-) I seem to recall that I betrayed all that is good and pure and true by voting for Jeroen's listowner powers to be removed a while ago. Rich GCU Perfidious Albion ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:41 AM Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > >From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > >Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:54:57 +0100 > > > > >But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal trouble > >for > >hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further > >policies added, etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe Ronn offered > >already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public domain where > >the > >current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone. > > Hi, Sonja. > > Why should he finish his work with the list? Trying to reduce ones > liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very > professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any other > similar ones in the real world. I'd rather have someone with these > intentions in charge of things around these parts. > I agree fully. The concept "you were aware of the risks to begin with, so don't you dare mitigate them." seems silly (Not Sonja's point, but someone else's). Nick's provides us with a premium service doing it this way, and I appreciate that. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
- Original Message - From: "Richard Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:55 AM Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > Dan said: > > > To whom? Not that I doubt that you are a traitor, I just see so many > > possibilities. :-) > > I seem to recall that I betrayed all that is good and pure and true by > voting for Jeroen's listowner powers to be removed a while ago. > Oh, but there there's the compass factor, (see Little Big Man) so you're OK. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 13:43 13-2-2003 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote: Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences. The word "threat" does not suggest _extremely negative_ consequences. It merely identifies negative consequences. Must be a cultural difference then. Unlike a certain subset of Americans (of which some people on this list are members, sadly), over here we don't yell "threat" at the first hint of something negative that might happen. Where I live, consequences have to be very grave before mentioning those consequences is called a threat. You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with proper usage. I'll be helpful: Threat is defined as "an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage." (m-w.com) Your "legal notice" essentially says you are not responsible for any damage that might result to others from direct and deliberate actions made by you. That is not a *threat*, that is a *disclaimer*. You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with proper usage. BTW, the definition you give of "threat" proves you wrong, and actually proves that my Legal Notice does not contain any threats; nowhere do I mention any intent to "inflict evil, injury or damage". Damage *might* result from publishing your message elsewhere, but doing damage is not the *intent* behind publishing your message elsewhere. Only the first part of my Legal Notice ("your replies may be published elsewhere") could possibly be interpreted as a threat, and even then it is only a threat in the definition used by a certain extremely oversensitive subset of the US public. On a side note, I don't get the impression that anyone on this list actually realises the purpose of including that Legal Notice. Well, we speak English as our native language. We would be expected to use it correctly, And, IMO, it's a rather hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line. Personally, I find it extremely funny that you first say that native speakers would be expected to use English correctly, and then manage to make the same spelling error *twice* in the same sentence. It's all the more dumb since you could have simply copied and pasted that particular part of the sentence. You might consider looking up the various words of your last sentence in an English language dictionary to find out what word you misspelled, and what the proper spelling is. Jeroen van Baardwijk -- not a native speaker, but better at spelling _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 14:41 14-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote: Trying to reduce ones liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any other similar ones in the real world. The problem is not that he tries to reduce liabilities and maximise protection for listmembers. The problem lies with *how* he tries to accomplish that. Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk _ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
At 04:30 PM 2/14/03 +0100, J. van Baardwijk wrote: Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk At least you're finally being out in the open about it. -- Ronn! :) Almighty Ruler of the all, Whose Power extends to great and small, Who guides the stars with steadfast law, Whose least creation fills with awe, O grant thy mercy and thy grace, To those who venture into space. (Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten ... > That you realise that, shows some good sense on your part. You > know the limits > of what you can get away with. (This isn't intended > as harsh as it > probably sounds, but I couln't find a better phrasing.) I was known for that as a child... but I hope that in managing the list, I stay quite far from what I *could* do. > Yes, mine for one. I like the brin-l anarchy. It gives > interesting ideas a place > and at times even the strangest voices are heard. I like the anarchy, too, and so for the last few days, after reading one of Erik's posts to this thread, I'm leaning quite heavily toward not having a new policy about copyright. Given any question about a matter, I think it's clear that the community prefers to err on the side of anarchy. And I'm not sure when the addition of list policies might end. > But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal > trouble for > hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further > policies added, etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe > Ronn offered > already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public > domain where the > current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone. I don't think there's any such thing, with the possible exception of an old gun platform off the coast of England. (See http://www.sealandgov.com/) > So far I've seen a lot to contradict your statement that this > list isn't owned > but merely managed by you. Unfortunatly I have to stand by my > opinion that for > all present purposes you own the list. Perhaps we still disagree, then. For me, it's something like the idea that I own my copy of "Glory Season," but David Brin owns the intellectual property. Wave the book and ask, "Who owns this book?" The obvious answer is "me," but it is equally true that the answer "David Brin" is correct. The server is mine, but the stuff that passes through it, like the words DB writes, belong to the authors and the community. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
"J. van Baardwijk" wrote: > Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk I'd most certainly vote against that happening. There are too many people you have issues with on this list. Sonja :o) GCU: But I still love you ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:16:06 +0100 "J. van Baardwijk" wrote: > Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk I'd be most surprised if the uprising he's been calling for didn't take place immediately thereafter. ;-) I'd most certainly vote against that happening. There are too many people you have issues with on this list. Sonja :o) GCU: But I still love you Awww. :) Happy Valentine's Day, anyway. :) Jon _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:09:34 +0100 At 13:43 13-2-2003 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote: Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences. The word "threat" does not suggest _extremely negative_ consequences. It merely identifies negative consequences. Must be a cultural difference then. Unlike a certain subset of Americans (of which some people on this list are members, sadly), over here we don't yell "threat" at the first hint of something negative that might happen. You have made some serious threats in the past. Considering the precedent, they may be entitled to be jumpy about it. :( Where I live, consequences have to be very grave before mentioning those consequences is called a threat. With regard to this, a threat simply describes intent to do harm. You characterize it by describing it's severity. You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with proper usage. I'll be helpful: Threat is defined as "an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage." (m-w.com) Your "legal notice" essentially says you are not responsible for any damage that might result to others from direct and deliberate actions made by you. That is not a *threat*, that is a *disclaimer*. You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with proper usage. You have threatened (and seemed most intent and serious about it, too) to post a wall of shame that would have very real life, damaging consequences to many list members. Your legal disclaimer is designed to hold you blameless if (and when) your actions cause harm. I stand by my original post. BTW, the definition you give of "threat" proves you wrong, and actually proves that my Legal Notice does not contain any threats; nowhere do I mention any intent to "inflict evil, injury or damage". Damage *might* result from publishing your message elsewhere, but doing damage is not the *intent* behind publishing your message elsewhere. I am, as usual, not interested in debating semantics with you. You have proven yourself most capable of taking action in the past that is intended to cause real life harm to people on this list. Your disclaimer is designed to protect you if you do so again. Only the first part of my Legal Notice ("your replies may be published elsewhere") could possibly be interpreted as a threat, and even then it is only a threat in the definition used by a certain extremely oversensitive subset of the US public. On a side note, I don't get the impression that anyone on this list actually realises the purpose of including that Legal Notice. If it's anything other than what I just described, I'd be most interested in hearing about it. Well, we speak English as our native language. We would be expected to use it correctly, And, IMO, it's a rather hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line. Personally, I find it extremely funny that you first say that native speakers would be expected to use English correctly, and then manage to make the same spelling error *twice* in the same sentence. It's all the more dumb since you could have simply copied and pasted that particular part of the sentence. You might consider looking up the various words of your last sentence in an English language dictionary to find out what word you misspelled, and what the proper spelling is. Jeroen van Baardwijk -- not a native speaker, but better at spelling Heh. I was a NYS Spelling Bee Semi-Finals winner when I was in fourth grade. You'd think I would have better skill at telling the difference between an "e" and an "a". :) Did you have an actual rebuttal to my comment, or were you just tring to deflect attention away from the accuracy of my statement by being snarky? Jon _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
From: Richard Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:42:42 + Jeroen said: > Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified > for the job. In your opinion, who here is qualified to be list owner/manager? Rich, who is obviously disqualified on account of being a traitor. That's "bloody fucking traitor" if I remember correctly. :( (I have that post archived. Highly unpleasant.) Jon But hey, at least we're able to "impose our pathetic intolerant hate-filled minority views on an entire community" Maru ROU The Wax of Memory _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Dan Minette wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:41 AM > Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > > >From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright > > >Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:54:57 +0100 > > > > > Hi, Sonja. > > > > Why should he finish his work with the list? Trying to reduce ones > > liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very > > professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any > other > > similar ones in the real world. So is bombing a possible terrorist location, with overwhelming fire power, but as with everything, I feel that the respons should be in accordance with the actual threat. :o) > I'd rather have someone with these > > intentions in charge of things around these parts. > > I gather then that you do feel threatened. I guess that is your right. I (knowing Jeroen up close and personal, just as some of you know Nick up close and personal) very much doubt there is a real threat. Another thing I've notices is that a lot of Nick's 'friends' (maybe I should say list buddies, ? :o)) don't mind if someone is altering the list to accomodate their own wishes and responsibillities. OK, that is their perogative as well. :o). But I for one feel that Nick should keep his fingers of the list policies as they are. If he wants to provide us the service, do the work as list admin and be damned for it in the process ;o), I'm the more gratefull for it. But if the condition for all those niceties is going to be that there are going to be more and more rules for people who wanne play and the rules are going to be more and exclusively Nick's rules because he hosts the list and because he has (very legitimatly and understandably) a right to protect himself, well then I for one decline the offer. :o) > I agree fully. The concept "you were aware of the risks to begin with, so > don't you dare mitigate them." seems silly (Not Sonja's point, but someone > else's). So why the *&%#@! are you putting this together with stuff I wrote? I'd say that leaves me standing pretty ugly, wouldn't you? It wasn't a nice thing to do, especially since I think I presented a rather good case against implementing more policies. > Nick's provides us with a premium service doing it this way, and > I appreciate that. Yes as do I, very much so, especially because he does seem to put in an awfull lot of work. But I just don't like what he's charging us for it. :o) Or what he might charge us in the future for that matter :o) Sonja GCU: I'm not a trusting soul, must be those windows. ;o) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Jon Gabriel wrote: > Awww. :) Happy Valentine's Day, anyway. :) Damn, is it that day already? And still not a chocolate (or even a flower) in sight.:o( Time to get that roling pin out of it's box ;o) Sonja GCU Marriage is the best way to kill the romance. That, and having kids. :o) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l