subject:"Re\: POLICY PROPOSAL\: The list and copyright"

At 15:56 10-2-2003 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:


Now that I'm getting some energy back, I propose that it's time to
discuss the list and copyright.  Jeroen's legal notice is inappropriate,
I believe, so I'd like to propose a new list policy that would deal with
such matters as simply as possible.

So here is my proposal:

COPYRIGHT POLICY
The intent of this policy is to ensure that postings to this list are
treated no differently than postings to  similar Internet-based mailing
lists.  Therefore, your postings may not contain language that would
alter others' rights to make copies.  This policy is not intended to
define such rights, which are determined and evolve in other venues.


If you want to introduce a "copyright policy", you should at least be 
consistent. If you are going to impose a rule that disallows people to make 
certain reservations about copyright, you must also disallow the posting of 
(parts of) copyrighted articles that have been posted elsewhere -- FREX, 
CNN reports.

Are you willing to spend the necessary time and effort on policing the list 
for copyright violations? Are you willing to spend the necessary time and 
effort on moderating those members who commit such violations? Are you 
willing to spend the necessary time and effort on reporting copyright 
violators to the copyright owners?

If not, then you should withdraw the proposal.


So... there are two things that I'd like to discuss:  Is such a policy a
good idea?


No, because it will turn this list even more into a moderated list than you 
already have.


If so, does the wording above accomplish it?


No, because you leave out enough to make it inconsistent.


Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 19:23 10-2-2003 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote:


One way to handle it, instead of making new rules, would be for as many
people as possible to simply state that they refuse to reply to any
message with a legal notice in it. If enough people adopt such a policy,
the offending legal notices are likely to disappear.


How childish.


Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 10:43 11-2-2003 +1000, Russell Chapman wrote:


Do people ever post anything here which really would involve copyright. 
Short stories, op-ed pieces etc?

Not really. David Brin has done that in the past a few times, but that's 
pretty much it.


To take it to the other extreme - can we have a filter on the mailer 
daemon that holds all posts containing the word copyright for moderation?

Technically, it should be possible to do so. However, the question is: are 
the list admins willing to spend the necessary time and effort on 
moderating such posts? Especially given the fact that all (or almost all) 
those posts will only have the word "copyright" in them because someone 
copied an article from somewhere else and included the copyright notice of 
that article.


Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 01:18 11-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote:


But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or replying 
to a message?  The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened 
jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list.

Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?

The use of the word "threat" suggests that the consequences would be very 
unpleasant for the person who sends the message. However, if an on-list 
message is published elsewhere, it cannot do any damage that the original 
posting couldn't already do, so the poster would be the person responsible 
for any consequences, not the person who posts the message elsewhere.

As for off-list messages: if they are friendly and reasonable, making them 
public can not do any damage. If they are unfriendly (FREX, flames) then 
the poster still should not complain if his message is made public. That 
poster is responsible for his/her own behaviour; if s/he doesn't want the 
world to know s/he was flaming, then s/he should not engage in that 
activity in the first place.


Jeroen "You do the crime, you do the time" van Baardwijk

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 18:58 10-2-2003 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:


That's not the issue at hand -- this is about people who would like to
attach explicit restrictions to their messages on the list.  I don't have
any problem with such restrictions


One of your own posts contradicts this. I have a recent message somewhere 
that has my Legal Notice in it, followed by you saying "No, no, a thousand 
times no". So, unless you suddenly changed your mind you *do* have a 
problem with it.


Jeroen "Architectus Tabularium" van Baardwijk

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 13:45 11-2-2003 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk wrote:


It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you please, without
asking any of us.


It is not *his* list, it is *our* list. If anyone could be said to "own" 
the list, it would be Hector Yee -- the founder of this list.

Nick doesn't *own* Brin-L. He *hosts* it and as a result he is a 
list-admin, but he doesn't *own* it.

He doesn't own it anymore than www.brin-l.com is owned by Yahoo!GeoCities 
(on whose servers the website is running) or by Arbor Domains (the 
Registrar for the domain).


Jeroen "Architectus Websiticum" van Baardwijk

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 10:41 11-2-2003 -0600, Julia Thompson wrote:


It *is* Nick's server, and if there's a major legal problem, it's Nick's
ass.


What would have to happen here to cause a "major legal problem" for him? I 
certainly can't think of anything that would cause such a problem.


If there's a major problem of some other nature that could affect him
negatively, it's still *his* ass.


What sort of "major problem" would that be? Again, can't think of anything 
that would cause such a problem.


Nick would be well within his rights to do whatever he thinks he needs
to do to cover his ass, without input from anyone else.


If "doing whatever he thinks he needs to do" is going to have an effect on 
other people on this list, then he should definitely take the input from 
others into consideration.


He *is* asking us, though, which means he values the opinions of people
who don't have as much on the line as he does.  And I appreciate this.


But what if he decides to ignore the opinions of people because they differ 
from his opinion? He has been playing judge, jury and executioner before, 
and it wouldn't be the first time that he even outright refuses to discuss 
his actions.


Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 22:36 11-2-2003 -0500, Bob Zimmerman wrote:

> It is your list, Nick. So alas you can do whatever you
> please, without asking any of us.

This is clearly unfair. Nick has been trying to do his best for all of us. 
I have had disagreements with him (in the distant past about natural 
selection) but in this regard I believe he has acted honorably and in the 
best interest of the list.

Believe me, things look a hell of a lot different from where I'm sitting. 
Nothing "honorably" or "in the best interest of the list" about it.   :-(

Nick has always been upfront about his activities

You should read the stuff he's been sending me *off-list*. It paints a very 
different picture of him -- and it's not a pretty one.   :-(

Insults. Threats of moderation. Threats of removal from the list. Threats 
of lawsuits. Outright refusal to discuss his actions.

and when he asked for an opinion about this issue he really wants our opinion.

But what if he decides to ignore our opinions because they happen to differ 
from his opinion? How are we going to prevent him from running this list 
like some Middle-Eastern dictator?

Because he hosts the list there are potential legal consequences for him

Such as? What could possibly happen (wrt the list) that would have legal 
consequences for him? And what would those "legal consequences" be?

Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 07:53 12-2-2003 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:


I don't see this as *my* list, even though it operates via server.  That's
why I don't use the phrase "list owner," but "list manager" instead.  I
regard that role as stewardship, not ownership.  I have a greater ability to
do damage to the list, but just as it managed to migrate from Cornell to my
server, it could migrate again.  I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could
do anything I want.


The problem is, you *can* do pretty much anything you want. Other than 
leaving this list and set up an other one somewhere else, there is nothing 
we can do if you decide to run this list like a dictator.


This is not a democracy, but that doesn't mean it is totalitarian.


Given my experiences so far, I have some doubts about that.   :-(



Seeing your later posting, I should add that several people have asked, all
off-list IIRC, for a discussion of Jeroen's legal notice, which I find
bothersome, too.  At the risk of being paternalistic, I'll note that some
people were quietly following a policy of not ever replying to a message
with that notice, and I wasn't sure that Jeroen even realized.


I did notice a decline in the number of replies to my posts. But if people 
choose not to reply to my messages because of a Legal Notice, then I 
consider that to be their loss, not mine.


I feel like adding a reminder that anyone can start a new list... but get a
creepy notion that that's something like Bill Gates saying that anyone is
free to write their own operating system.


True. That's why you can do anything you want to this list. Nobody is going 
to setup a new Brin-L, and we can't force you to migrate Brin-L to someone 
else's server if we decide you have overstepped your authority as a list admin.


Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-12 Thread Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo

From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 15:56:00 -0800

Now that I'm getting some energy back, I propose that it's time to discuss
the list and copyright.  Jeroen's legal notice is inappropriate, I believe,
so I'd like to propose a new list policy that would deal with such matters
as simply as possible...

If I may, I'd like to get a word in this issue...

I have known Nick for quite some time now (close to ten years), and he has 
always been known for been a man of outstanding character, a great sense of 
justice, and an intutive knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

I consider myself EXTREMELY LUCKY to have been able to share with him the 
golden days of Compuserve.  Along with a community of international Sysops, 
who were tried and true professionals of their fields, and not mere 
amateurs, he gave shape to online policies in the top information service of 
its' time.  And trust me, we faced A LOT of difficult situations and  users, 
most of whom were ready to sue at the drop of a hat, after being given the 
slightest message of admonishment for breaking this-or-that forum or Cserve 
rule.  The parameters he helped establish guided us succesfully through some 
very rough waters.

That, I believe, more than qualifies Nick for being the administrator or 
owner, whatever you want to call him, of Brin-L.

I have to agree with Julia 110%: Nick, as the current administrator of this 
list, has not only the right, but the duty to defend and protect both 
himself and the interests of the subscribers of the list.  I cast my vote 
for establishing a policy that solves the copyright issues at hand, based on 
consensus of the list.  I am in favor of seeing the rules written down 
carefully and specifically for all to follow.

Then again, as an educator, I will be extremely biased towards the 
STRUCTURED approach to the solution of this little conundrum. :-)

JJ

P.S. By writing this message, I make it perfectly clear that I am rejecting 
all temptations to dignify with an answer messages that attempt to address 
serious adult and mature issues thru infantile displays of behavior, temper 
tantrums and name-calling which we would normally see in a Second Grade 
classroom.  Have we seen those before? I dunno.. you be the judge.

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-12 Thread Jon Gabriel

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On > Behalf Of J. van Baardwijk
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
> At 01:18 11-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote:
>
> >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or
replying 
> >to a message?  The fact that such "consequences" are even threatened 
> >jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list.
>
> Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?
>

Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't
you?

That was not a government policy you were complaining about, now was it?


Jon
ROU Thanks For Proving My Point
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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread J . v . Baardwijk

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 3:16
> Aan: 'Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist authors
> David Brin and Gregory Benford.'
> Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or
> > >replying to a message?  The fact that such "consequences" are even 
> > >threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list.
> >
> > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?
> 
> Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't
> you?

Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous subset of US
citizens who see any and all criticism of the US and her citizens as
"anti-Americanism".

Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American, aren't
you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it.


Jeroen "Zero tolerance for intolerance" van Baardwijk

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:12 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
> > -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 3:16
> > Aan: 'Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist
authors
> > David Brin and Gregory Benford.'
> > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
> > > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or
> > > >replying to a message?  The fact that such "consequences" are
even 
> > > >threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list.
> > >
> > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?
> > 
> > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't
> > you?
>
> Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous subset
of US
> citizens who see any and all criticism of the US and her citizens as
> "anti-Americanism".
>

**You** are again using a negative stereotype to describe Americans.
**That** is intolerant and arrogantly self-righteous behavior.

As an example, I could easily have answered your post by saying "Lemme
guess... a distrust of anything that smacks of fairness and authority
AND no sense of personal responsibility?  You MUST be Dutch, right?"  I
did not.  Sterotypes are offensive. :(  

If you have a problem with someone, please attack their argument and not
the poster.  

> Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American,
aren't
> you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it.

It's not obvious.  Please explain. 

> Jeroen "Zero tolerance for intolerance" van Baardwijk

But you'll freely spout a negative stereotype when it fits your purpose?

Jon

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Killer Bs Discussion'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:16:43 -0500

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 3:12 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
> > -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> > Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 3:16
> > Aan: 'Discussions of the writings of science fiction/futurist
authors
> > David Brin and Gregory Benford.'
> > Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
> > > >But what about the "alleged" possible consequences of posting or
> > > >replying to a message?  The fact that such "consequences" are
even
> > > >threatened jeopardizes the entire purpose of a mailing list.
> > >
> > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?
> >
> > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American attitudes, aren't
> > you?
>
> Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous subset
of US
> citizens who see any and all criticism of the US and her citizens as
> "anti-Americanism".
>

**You** are again using a negative stereotype to describe Americans.
**That** is intolerant and arrogantly self-righteous behavior.

As an example, I could easily have answered your post by saying "Lemme
guess... a distrust of anything that smacks of fairness and authority
AND no sense of personal responsibility?  You MUST be Dutch, right?"  I
did not.  Sterotypes are offensive. :(

Hi, Jon! Thanks for stepping in.

You know you're winning an argument when the person you're up against 
resorts to name-calling and bigotry. Those are definitely the signs of an 
intelligent discussion.  Need we say more?

Who knows? Maybe now we know what Archie Bunker would've wrote if he were a 
member of this list.  :)

JJ
Who cringes at the prospect of Bunker ever entering cyberspace...

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Gary L. Nunn


JJ wrote,
> Who knows? Maybe now we know what Archie Bunker would've 
> wrote if he were a 
> member of this list.  :)


Every post would have started out with someone being called "Meathead".
:-)

Gary


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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread J . v . Baardwijk

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 13:17
> Aan: 'Killer Bs Discussion'
> Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American,
> > aren't you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it.
> 
> It's not obvious.  Please explain.

Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross
exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences.
I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative
consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have
only seen it coming from US citizens. Hence the observation "you're
American, aren't you?".

Jeroen "Zero tolerance for intolerance" van Baardwijk

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LEGAL NOTICE:
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Dan Minette


- Original Message - 
From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 6:39 AM
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright



> 
> JJ
> Who cringes at the prospect of Bunker ever entering cyberspace...

To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle ourselves.

Dan M. 


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Erik Reuter

On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 07:45:29AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:

> To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle
> ourselves.

I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term
meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot or computer
would use for a human.

-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 01:43 PM 2/12/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:


Sonja
GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool




Having your soul crash ten times a day and have to be rebooted each time, 
and getting incomprehensible error messages from your soul whenever it 
_was_ running, would be "cool"?

Not to mention having Bill Gates own your soul and you have to periodically 
pay a licence fee to him in order to keep using it . . .



-- Ronn!  :)

Almighty Ruler of the all,
Whose Power extends to great and small,
Who guides the stars with steadfast law,
Whose least creation fills with awe,
O grant thy mercy and thy grace,
To those who venture into space.

(Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn)


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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Horn, John

> From: Nick Arnett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> I feel like adding a reminder that anyone can start a new 
> list...
 
> This particular list, like Windows, has momentum that takes it
> out of the realm of pure regulation by
> competition, into a zone where one should adopt an attitude 
> of stewardship.

I would agree. There's something about this list.  When I was fed up a while
back, I went over to the Culture list.  And it was fun.  But there was
something about Brin-l that brought me back.  I don't know what it is.  But
it would be difficult, if not impossible, to start a new list that would
have that same feel unless most of the active posters went over enmasse
(sp?).  Which isn't likely to happen.

 - jmh 

I Just Like You Guys Dammit Maru
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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Horn, John

> From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually 
> really don't
> care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I 
> usually don't
> even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands 
> there is no
> way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and
> unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US.

Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about
this issue!

 - jmh

Don't women get to do that to their spouses Maru
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 12:27 PM 2/11/03 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote:

However, I still think the best way to handle this is for as many people
as possible to state that they have adopted a policy of not replying to
messages with legal notices.

To be honest, I've just about stopped reading any messages with this
subject line.

Come on, people, it's an _e-mail list_, for crying out loud. Just a bunch
of friends (nominally) who like sitting around shooting the breeze, but
instead of doing it on someone's front porch, we're doing it via the
Internet, where we can include people from all over the world. It isn't
worth all this bickering. Personally, I don't care if anyone quotes what I
write on this list or punches the delete key as soon as they see my name on
a message, and I don't see why anyone else should. If you want to keep
something private, send it privately and encrypt it, or use some method
other than e-mail. If you want to send something privately to someone else
on the list, and that person doesn't want to read it, that's his/her
prerogative, just as it's the prerogative of anyone here to put my address
into their killfile if they don't care to read what I have to say, or just
as it's their prerogative to hang up the phone as soon as they recognize my
voice, or just as it's their prerogative to toss any snail mail I might
send to them unread into the round file as soon as they realize it's from
me, and it's my prerogative to do the same to anyone else I don't want to
hear from, like telemarketers and junk mailers. The First
Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to
express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive
some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience.You have just as much right to ignore me as I have right to speak,
and I can't legally or morally force you to listen. So, if someone says
something on this list which offends you, reply to it, delete it, put that
person in your killfile, or unsubscribe from the list in a huff. Your
choice and yours alone. Though I'd really hate for anyone here to leave
the list, as I value all of you and your opinions, even when I don't
necessarily agree with them. Sometimes I learn the most from those with
whom I disagree the strongest, whether I like it or not.

Now, I am sick as the proverbial dog this morning--last night I nearly
passed out in the middle of changing clothes after getting home after class
(before I could even feed the cats)--and I came to the computer to e-mail
in sick and cancel the class I'm supposed to teach in about 40 minutes or
so (beats trying to play phone tag when you feel crummy) and for some
reason thought I'd enjoy reading some of the accumulated mail in my
box. I'm think I'm about to go back to bed. I hope the list will still be
here and all of you will still be on it whenever I get up again. As I tell
my cats, play nicely together while I'm trying to sleep.

Love to you all. See you later.

-- Ronn! :)

Almighty Ruler of the all,
Whose Power extends to great and small,
Who guides the stars with steadfast law,
Whose least creation fills with awe,
O grant thy mercy and thy grace,
To those who venture into space.

(Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn)

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:27:47 -0600

At 01:43 PM 2/12/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:

Sonja
GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool

Having your soul crash ten times a day and have to be rebooted each time, 
and getting incomprehensible error messages from your soul whenever it 
_was_ running, would be "cool"?

It would be worth it just to have an automatic SoulsSaver(tm).  Think of all 
the happy Microsoft Christians.

Not to mention having Bill Gates own your soul and you have to periodically 
pay a licence fee to him in order to keep using it . .

I'm sure there would be a nice warez newsgroup I could download from. :)

Jon

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: "Horn, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:55:51 -0600

> From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually
> really don't
> care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I
> usually don't
> even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands
> there is no
> way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and
> unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US.

Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about
this issue!

 - jmh

Don't women get to do that to their spouses Maru


No, absolutely not!  Not in a millio... 

Anyway, could Sonja make a video of it?  

Jon
Humor is a Valid Literary Technique Maru

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread J . v . Baardwijk

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Horn, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 15:56
> Aan: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> > Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually really
> > don't care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I
> > usually don't even bother to read them, because legally in the
> > Netherlands there is no way to enforce them. I imagine it would be
> > equally difficult and unrewarding for anything concerning this list in
> > the US.
> 
> Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about
> this issue!

I think it would be more appropriate to whack those people on the head who
are blowing this issue up to gigantic proportions, as if it is going to cost
them loads of money and ruin their lives.


Jeroen "Everything is relative" van Baardwijk

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LEGAL NOTICE:
By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies 
(both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, 
and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative 
consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you.
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Erik Reuter

That's easy for you to say, Ronn. I wonder if you'd have the same
opinion if you ran your own business and also hosted the Brin-L list on
your own machine, thus exposing yourself to possible lawsuits, frivolous
or otherwise. 


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Julia Thompson

"Gary L. Nunn" wrote:
> 
> JJ wrote,
> > Who knows? Maybe now we know what Archie Bunker would've
> > wrote if he were a
> > member of this list.  :)
> 
> Every post would have started out with someone being called "Meathead".
> :-)

Or "dingbat".  

;)

Julia
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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Horn, John

> From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle
> > ourselves.
> 
> I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term
> meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot 
> or computer
> would use for a human.

I don't think the show *could* be made today.  I don't think anyone would
take that sort of risk...

 - jmh

All The More The Pity Maru
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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:38:08 +0100

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 13:17
> Aan: 'Killer Bs Discussion'
> Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked "you're American,
> > aren't you". And no, anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it.
>
> It's not obvious.  Please explain.

Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross
exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative 
consequences.

The word "threat" does not suggest _extremely negative_ consequences.  It 
merely identifies negative consequences.  You might consider looking up the 
word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with proper 
usage.

I'll be helpful: Threat is defined as "an expression of intention to inflict 
evil, injury, or damage." (m-w.com)  Your "legal notice" essentially says 
you are not responsible for any damage that might result to others from 
direct and deliberate actions made by you.  His use of the word was 
appropriate here.  No exaggeration is being made. And, considering previous 
posts and actions by you with regard to this exact subject, one might 
reasonably expect you to understand what an actual threat is.

I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative
consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have
only seen it coming from US citizens.

Well, we speak English as our native language.  We would be expected to use 
it correctly, exactly as Jose did.

Hence the observation "you're
American, aren't you?".

It's still stereotyping.  It's still wrong.  And, IMO, it's a rather 
hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero 
tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line.

Jon

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:43:45 -0500

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:38:08 +0100

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: donderdag 13 februari 2003 13:17
> Aan: 'Killer Bs Discussion'
> Onderwerp: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative
consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have
only seen it coming from US citizens.

Well, we speak English as our native language.  We would be expected to use 
it correctly, exactly as Jose did.

I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on

Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language...

:-)

Jon

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Julia Thompson

Jon Gabriel wrote:

> It's still stereotyping.  It's still wrong.  And, IMO, it's a rather
> hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero
> tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line.

Isn't that somewhat oxymoronic, anyway?

Julia
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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: "Horn, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:11:20 -0600

> From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle
> > ourselves.
>
> I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term
> meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot
> or computer
> would use for a human.

Hmmm.. I wonder..

J walks to a brand-new ATM. Inserts his ATM card. Waits a little longer than 
he should, checking the options. All of a sudden, an electronic voice with a 
thick Brooklyn accent yells out:

"Hey, MEATHEAD, gitovahe'e and press ENCHER, will ya?".

I don't think the show *could* be made today.  I don't think anyone would
take that sort of risk...

Wasn't that show great?  I think sitcoms made a turn of the worse after "All 
In The Family" in the late 70's, and through most of the 80's. No other TV 
show in history could possibly insult and alienate so many ethnic groups in 
21 minutes.  :)

JJ
Who thinks the DVD's of the first 2 seasons of "All In The Family" are 
awesome.  Two thumbs up.

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on

Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language...

:-)

Jon



LOL!!! Good one. :)

Puerto Rico has been a commonwealth/colony of the USA since 1898, after the 
end of the Hispanic-American war. I was educated by Dominican Sisters (from 
the States, of course) and have been working with the local and Federal 
Government, as well as International Schools and Universities, for the rest 
of my adult life. Trust me, my English may not be 100% perfect, but it's as 
much a part of my culture as a Whopper and an apple pie. :)

JJ

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Kevin Tarr



> From: Erik Reuter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
> > To take the easy shot, all us meatheads would have to stifle
> > ourselves.
>
> I doubt if that show were made today if they would use the term
> meathead. Today, it sounds to me like an insult an AI robot
> or computer
> would use for a human.


Hmmm.. I wonder..

J walks to a brand-new ATM. Inserts his ATM card. Waits a little longer 
than he should, checking the options. All of a sudden, an electronic voice 
with a thick Brooklyn accent yells out:

"Hey, MEATHEAD, gitovahe'e and press ENCHER, will ya?".

I don't think the show *could* be made today.  I don't think anyone would
take that sort of risk...


Wasn't that show great?  I think sitcoms made a turn of the worse after 
"All In The Family" in the late 70's, and through most of the 80's. No 
other TV show in history could possibly insult and alienate so many ethnic 
groups in 21 minutes.  :)

JJ
Who thinks the DVD's of the first 2 seasons of "All In The Family" are 
awesome.  Two thumbs up.


The Jeffersons weren't bad either. I didn't know AitF was out on DVDbut 
can't imagine watching them either.

For the amount of TV I watch, I have thought about sitcoms. I don't think 
they got worse after AitF. The show ended in 1983? Didn't know it was that 
long. MASH ended the same year with great fanfare, while AitF was wheezing 
for years, once Mike and Gloria left, even before that. (back to the point) 
In that time there wasn't much to be happy about. 1983 was still pretty bad 
in America.I'm trying to recall the sitcoms from then. Mork and Mindy 
started great but had some seriously bad episodes. (Although anything with 
Jonathan Winters is #1 in my book). Happy Days ended in 1985 and was never 
that great. (Just had a flashback of something I did after a show. Checked 
the program guide, it was Nov. 1976. Wow.) Soap was wonderful. Three 
Company? The end of MTM show? WKRP! That was funny. "They are dropping the 
turkeys out of the helicopter.  .something is wrong! They aren't flying! Oh 
the humanity!"

Okay maybe there was a decline. The sitcoms were a reflection of society. 
The country was nesting, parents and kids interacting in the home. Same as 
AitF with younger kids, except now the kids were playing the Archie Role. 
With Cheers of course being the exception. I hate Cheers. I liked it then 
but I can't stand to watch a re-run. Seriously other than Seinfeld and the 
Simpsons I don't like any sitcoms re-runs if they are more than five years 
old. Won't that be a better yardstick? Can you imagine watching any of the 
current sitcoms 30 years from now?

Plus the hour long Drama was so dominant back in the early 80s.

Some facts:

* Norman Lear was the founder of "The People for the American Way." From 
1980 to 1986, this group compelled the state of Texas to accept textbooks 
incorporating the theory of evolution.
* In a NBC interview from Oct 15, 1985 Lear stated that people should not 
force religious views upon others.

Kevin T. - VRWC
ramblings r us
Anyone read American Gods? I liked the little Dick Van Dyke show rewrite.

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 10:43 AM 2/13/03 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote:

That's easy for you to say, Ronn. I wonder if you'd have the same
opinion if you ran your own business and also hosted the Brin-L list on
your own machine, thus exposing yourself to possible lawsuits, frivolous
or otherwise.




I don't have a machine capable of doing so, so that would not be a 
consideration.

I have, however, considered offering to set up and manage Brin-L on one of 
the publicly-available servers (but not Yahoo!) if it came down to someone 
having to do that to prevent the list from going away entirely.  I am 
absolutely _not_ saying that I have any desire to be list manager, just 
that I would consider doing that rather than seeing the list end.

And perhaps you misinterpreted my "rant":  I was saying "Let's all get off 
Nick's back and off everyone else's and start behaving like friends again 
instead of fighting and making threats."  And as far as the issue of 
copyright of individual messages goes, everyone here who posts regularly 
has been on-line long enough to know that if you don't want something 
possibly made public at some future time, don't send it as e-mail, period, 
if for no other reason than because (at least in the US) e-mail archives 
can be subpoenaed in court cases.


Going Back To Bed Maru


-- Ronn!  :)

Almighty Ruler of the all,
Whose Power extends to great and small,
Who guides the stars with steadfast law,
Whose least creation fills with awe,
O grant thy mercy and thy grace,
To those who venture into space.

(Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn)


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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Marvin Long, Jr.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Kevin Tarr wrote:
> 
> Okay maybe there was a decline. The sitcoms were a reflection of society. 
> The country was nesting, parents and kids interacting in the home. Same as 
> AitF with younger kids, except now the kids were playing the Archie Role. 
> With Cheers of course being the exception. I hate Cheers. I liked it then 
> but I can't stand to watch a re-run. Seriously other than Seinfeld and the 
> Simpsons I don't like any sitcoms re-runs if they are more than five years 
> old. Won't that be a better yardstick? Can you imagine watching any of the 
> current sitcoms 30 years from now?

Nope.  I'd watch Barney Miller, though.  That was my favorite sitcom when 
I was a wee lad.
 

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter & Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA)

http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

From: Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:16:04 -0600

if you don't want something possibly made public at some future time, don't 
send it as e-mail, period, if for no other reason than because (at least in 
the US) e-mail archives can be subpoenaed in court cases.

Going Back To Bed Maru

Sooo true.. That last line I read reminded me of the validity of emails in a 
court of law.

I once had to help a colleague of mine with her divorce case. The evidence: 
her husband's emails to his lover. And mind you, they were written on his 
company's email account. They both worked on two different floors, so he 
made it a point to send his lover at least 3 emails a day.

I had the pleasure, and honor, of sorting through his disks to uncover the 
incriminating evidence. I have never read such a large amount of 
pseudo-romantic hogwash. Not even in a romantic paperback novel. The amount 
of sugarcoat in those emails was so bad, that not even an ant would touch 
the diskettes. :)

The husband in question was acting all high and mighty with his wife!! 
Demanding this, ordering that, and he almost obtained custody. UNTIL the 
judge took a look at the printouts, as well as a peek at the system 
date/system time stamp on the disk's directory.

Good ol' DOS.. at least it was useful for something.

That was it; an open and shut case.

JJ

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Robert Seeberger


- Original Message -
From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright


> >I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on
> >
> >Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language...
> >
> >:-)
> >
> >Jon
> >
>
> LOL!!! Good one. :)
>
> Puerto Rico has been a commonwealth/colony of the USA since 1898, after
the
> end of the Hispanic-American war. I was educated by Dominican Sisters
(from
> the States, of course) and have been working with the local and Federal
> Government, as well as International Schools and Universities, for the
rest
> of my adult life. Trust me, my English may not be 100% perfect, but it's
as
> much a part of my culture as a Whopper and an apple pie. :)
>
Whopper?

Burger King is British owned IIRC.

xponent
Fun House Maru
rob

You are a fluke of the universe.
You have no right to be here.
And whether you can hear it or not,
the universe is laughing behind your back.


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Dan Minette


- Original Message -
From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright


>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:30 PM
> Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
>
> > >I sense a "DOH!" moment coming on
> > >
> > >Jose... Puerto Rico English may not be his native language...
> > >
> > >:-)
> > >
> > >Jon
> > >
> >
> > LOL!!! Good one. :)
> >
> > Puerto Rico has been a commonwealth/colony of the USA since 1898, after
> the
> > end of the Hispanic-American war. I was educated by Dominican Sisters
> (from
> > the States, of course) and have been working with the local and Federal
> > Government, as well as International Schools and Universities, for the
> rest
> > of my adult life. Trust me, my English may not be 100% perfect, but
it's
> as
> > much a part of my culture as a Whopper and an apple pie. :)
> >
> Whopper?

I thought he was talking about Bill's excuses to Hillary.

Dan M.


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-13 Thread Matt Grimaldi

Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote:
> > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?

Jon Gabriel wrote:
> > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American
> > > attitudes, aren't you?

Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote:
> > Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous
> > subset of US citizens who see any and all criticism of the US
> > and her citizens as "anti-Americanism".

This is not a cute and witty thing to say, Jeroen.

Jon Gabriel wrote:
> **You** are again using a negative stereotype to
> describe Americans. **That** is intolerant and
> arrogantly self-righteous behavior.

He said "subset of US Citizens", Jon, probably in an
attempt to avoid turning it into a stereotype for
all Americans.  Are you trying to say that no group
of people who fit that description exists?  I'd be
quick to disagree with you if you are.

Regardless, you're taking offense too quickly,
which is much too easy to do in an email forum.

Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote:
> > Actually, it should be quite obvious why I asked
> > "you're American, aren't you". And no,
> > anti-Americanism has nothing to do with it.

Jon Gabriel wrote:
> It's not obvious.  Please explain.

I agree with Jon, it's not obvious.  Please
explain, Jeroen.

-- Matt

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On > Behalf Of Matt Grimaldi
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 10:10 AM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
>
> Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote:
> > > > > Lemme guess -- you're American, aren't you?
>
> Jon Gabriel wrote:
> > > > Let me guess, you're displaying more anti-American
> > > > attitudes, aren't you?
>
> Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote:
> > > Only if you're a member of that intolerant and self-righteous
> > > subset of US citizens who see any and all criticism of the US
> > > and her citizens as "anti-Americanism".
>
> 
> This is not a cute and witty thing to say, Jeroen.
>

No, it was trolling.  But it allowed me to prove a point so I challenged
it anyway. Don't worry, it won't devolve into a flamewar.

>
> Jon Gabriel wrote:
> > **You** are again using a negative stereotype to
> > describe Americans. **That** is intolerant and
> > arrogantly self-righteous behavior.
>
> He said "subset of US Citizens", Jon, probably in an
> attempt to avoid turning it into a stereotype for
> all Americans.  Are you trying to say that no group
> of people who fit that description exists?  I'd be
> quick to disagree with you if you are.

His original comment did not focus on a subset of Americans.  If it had,
he would have said something along the lines of "Let me guess, you're a
member of that group of Americans who think they should sue
everything."

A subset exists.  I don't deny that.  Some Americans are fat too.  It
would also be offensive if Jeroen walked up to an obese person and said
"You're huge!  You *must* be an American."

> Regardless, you're taking offense too quickly,
> which is much too easy to do in an email forum.

Perhaps.  It's true that he does have the ability to offend me quickly.
It IS interesting that on a list with over 100 active posters from a
variety of backgrounds and political POV's that he is the only one who
does so, isn't it?

I and other people have noted publicly that this is a behavioral
pattern.  I refuted Jeroen's oft-made objection that he routinely
criticizes American policy and not the American people, but is then
unfairly accused of being anti-American.  Since I've made my point, I
doubt I'll need to post further on the subject.  

Jon
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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On > Behalf Of Julia Thompson
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 4:18 PM
> To: Killer Bs Discussion
> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> 
> Jon Gabriel wrote:
> 
> > It's still stereotyping.  It's still wrong.  And, IMO, it's a rather
> > hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who uses the phrase 'zero
> > tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line.
> 
> Isn't that somewhat oxymoronic, anyway?
> 

Gosh, we should play him some live bagpipe music as punishment! :-)
*grin*
I ripped these 47 bagpipe jokes from robertrife.com: 

Ireland gave the Scots the bagpipes . . . and they still haven't gotten
the joke yet.

Now, here's a thought: How do you know when it's time to tune your
bagpipes? 

Q. What do you call 100 bagpipes at the bottom of the sea?
A. A good start. 

Q. Why do pipers walk when they play?
A. They are trying to get away from the sound!
A2. Moving targets are harder to hit.

Q. Why does everyone hate the bagpipes right off?
A. Saves time.

Q. How can you tell the difference between bagpipe songs?
A. By their names.

Q. What do you call a happy song played on the pipes?
A. Ha! Yeah, right.

Q. What's one thing you never hear people say?
A. Oh, that's the bagpipe player's Porsche. 

Q. How do you get two bagpipes to play a perfect unison?
A. Shoot one. 

Q. What's the definition of a minor second?
A. Two bagpipes playing in unison. 

"Gentleman" defined: Someone who knows how to play the bagpipes but
doesn't.

Q. What's the difference between a bagpipe and an onion?
A. No one cries when you chop up an bagpipe. 

Q. What's the difference between a bagpipe and a trampoline?
A. You take off your shoes when you jump on a trampoline. 

Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?
A. To get away from the bagpipe recital. 

Q. Why do bagpipers leave their cases on their dashboards?
A. So they can park in handicapped zones. 

Q. How can you tell a bagpiper with perfect pitch?
A. He can throw a set into the middle of a pond and not hit any of the
ducks. 

Q. How is playing a bagpipe like throwing a javelin blindfolded?
A. You don't have to be very good to get people's attention. 

Q. What's the difference between the Great Highland and Northumbrian
bagpipes?
A. The GHB burns longer [but the Northumbrian burns hotter] 

Q. What do you call bagpiper with half a brain?
A. Gifted. 

Q. What's the difference between a lawnmower and a bagpipe?
A. You can tune the lawnmower, and the owner's neighbors are upset if
you borrow the lawnmower and don't return it. 

Q. How many bagpipers does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Five, one to handle the bulb and the other four to contemplate how
Bill Livingston would have done it. 

Q. How many bagpipers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A. Five --one to do it, and four to criticise his fingering style. 

Q. If you were lost in the woods, who would you trust for directions, an
in-tune bagpipe player, an out of tune bagpipe player, or Santa Claus?
A. The out of tune bagpipe player. The other two indicate you have been
hallucinating. 

Q. How do you make a chain saw sound like a bagpipe?
A. Add vibrato.

 Q. What's the difference between a dead snake in the road and a dead
bagpiper in the road?
A. Skid marks in front of the snake. 

Q. What's the difference between a dead bagpiper in the road and a dead
country singer in the road?
A. The country singer may have been on the way to a recording session.

Q. What's the range of a bagpipe?
A. Twenty yards if you have a good arm. 

Q. What do you call someone who hangs around with musicians?
A. A bagpiper. 

Someone once said, "You don't PLAY bagpipes, you WIELD them."

Q. What did the bagpiper get on his I.Q. test?
A. Drool.

Q. What's the definition of a quarter tone?
A. A bagpiper tuning his drones. 

Q. Why are bagpipers fingers like lightning?
A. They rarely strike the same spot twice. 

Q. How can you tell if a bagpipe is out of tune?
A. Someone is blowing into it. 

Q. Why is a bagpipe like a Scud missile?
A. Both are offensive and inaccurate. 

Q. How do you know if a bagpipe band is at your front door?
A. No one knows when to come in. 

Q. Why did the bagpiper get mad at the drummer?
A. He moved a drone and wouldn't tell him which one. 

Q. What do you call ten bagpipes at the bottom of the ocean?
A. A start. 

Scottish Scholar's conversation with Mother:

"And how do you find the English students, Donald?" she asked.

"Mother," he replied. "They're such terrible, noisy people. The one on
that side keeps banging his head against the wall, and won't stop. The
one on the other side screams and screams and screams, away into the
night."

"Oh Donald! How do you manage to put up

Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross
> exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences.
> I have noticed this tendency to call even the smallest hint of negative
> consequences a "threat", but although I have seen this many times, I have
> only seen it coming from US citizens. Hence the observation "you're
> American, aren't you?".

Adding a 'smiley' or '' to that remark would have made it clear you were
knowingly using a stereotype in a friendly way. At least it would have prevented
a dozen or so messages from being send unnecessarily and it would have saved you
the bother of having to defend yourself against  a dozen or so attacks.

Sonja
GCU smileys are our friends

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:

> At 01:43 PM 2/12/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:
>
> >Sonja
> >GCU Windows into the soul... now that would be cool
>
> Having your soul crash ten times a day and have to be rebooted each time,
> and getting incomprehensible error messages from your soul whenever it
> _was_ running, would be "cool"?
>
> Not to mention having Bill Gates own your soul and you have to periodically
> pay a licence fee to him in order to keep using it . . .
>
> -- Ronn!  :)

OK, I give up!..:o) crash... reboot. error 2012 occured in modul
soul.com at 23ab000345109hf..bla bla bla. 

Sonja

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

"Horn, John" wrote:

> > From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> > Should I? Oh, heck, just because you insist:o) I actually
> > really don't
> > care what notice people put at the bottom of their e-mail. I
> > usually don't
> > even bother to read them, because legally in the Netherlands
> > there is no
> > way to enforce them. I imagine it would be equally difficult and
> > unrewarding for anything concerning this list in the US.
>
> Then please go whack your "roommate" upside the head for all of us about
> this issue!
>
>  - jmh

Will you protect me afterwards?

> Don't women get to do that to their spouses Maru

Yeah, we do... but ... my marble rolling pin still is in a box somewhere.
And without that at hand I don't dare attempt it. He'd probably defend
himself so

Sonja ;o)
GCU Coward

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:

> 
> 

>  The First
> Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to
> express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive
> some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience.   only.>

Yep now that is exactly what I was trying to tell everybody.

> 

> I hope the list will still be here and all of you will still be on it
> whenever I get up again.  As I tell my cats, play nicely together while I'm
> trying to sleep.
>
> 

Indeed.

> Love to you all.  See you later.

Yuck... that is so soppy. Stop it! :o) It totally ruins the picture I had
of you Ronn

Sonja
GCU Hope you feel better soon

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 10:44 AM 2/14/03 +0100, Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote:

"Ronn!Blankenship" wrote:

> 
> 

>  The First
> Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right to free speech, to
> express my political or religious or other opinion, no matter how offensive
> some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an audience.   only.>

Yep now that is exactly what I was trying to tell everybody.

> 

> I hope the list will still be here and all of you will still be on it
> whenever I get up again.  As I tell my cats, play nicely together while I'm
> trying to sleep.
>
> 

Indeed.

> Love to you all.  See you later.

Yuck... that is so soppy. Stop it! :o) It totally ruins the picture I had
of you Ronn

I figured that if sarcasm didn't work, I'd try soppiness . . .

Sonja
GCU Hope you feel better soon

Thank you.  I seem to, after spending most all of Thursday in bed asleep . . .

-- Ronn!  :)

Almighty Ruler of the all,
Whose Power extends to great and small,
Who guides the stars with steadfast law,
Whose least creation fills with awe,
O grant thy mercy and thy grace,
To those who venture into space.

(Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn)

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

Robert said:

> Burger King is British owned IIRC.

It's owned by Diageo, which is also the world's largest purveyor of
alcohol - it owns Guinness and various other alcohol manufacturers
(including Johnnie Walker whisky and Smirnoff vodka).

Rich
GCU Onward March Of Globalisation

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Erik Reuter

On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:26:50AM +, Richard Baker wrote:

> It's owned by Diageo, which is also the world's largest purveyor of
> alcohol - it owns Guinness and various other alcohol manufacturers
> (including Johnnie Walker whisky and Smirnoff vodka).

Not anymore. Diageo sold Pillsbury last year, and just last December
they inked the deal to sell Burger King for $1.5B to private investors
led by Texas Pacific Group (it was announced on Friday the 13th). They
say they want to focus on "premium alcoholic drinks".

-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

Erik said:

> Not anymore. Diageo sold Pillsbury last year, and just last December
> they inked the deal to sell Burger King for $1.5B to private investors
> led by Texas Pacific Group (it was announced on Friday the 13th).

Ah, that's what I get for extracting information from a book published
early last year (_Open World_ by Philippe Legrain, a pretty good
defence of globalisation).

Rich
GCU Struggling To Keep Up

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

Nick Arnett wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > Behalf Of Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten
> ...
>
> > I (as in me, myself as a person ;o)) don't like more rules and
> > regulations, so I
> > feel it isn't a good idea. But as I said, it is Nick's list so he _can_ do
> > whatever he likes.
>
> I don't see this as *my* list, even though it operates via server.  That's
> why I don't use the phrase "list owner," but "list manager" instead.  I
> regard that role as stewardship, not ownership.  I have a greater ability to
> do damage to the list, but just as it managed to migrate from Cornell to my
> server, it could migrate again.  I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could
> do anything I want.

That you realise that, shows some good sense on your part. You know the limits
of what you can get away with.  (This isn't intended as harsh as it
probably sounds, but I couln't find a better phrasing.)

>  When list managers, like other community leaders,
> forget that they are accountable to the community, they often lose their
> leadership position.  I've certainly seen that happen more than once.
>
> This is not a democracy, but that doesn't mean it is totalitarian.  It's far
> closer to anarchy than either of those, and we have some strong voices
> calling for it to remain so.

Yes, mine for one. I like the brin-l anarchy. It gives interesting ideas a place
and at times even the strangest voices are heard. I've been a long time member
on this list (even if my ranking doesn't show it :o)) and there is no end to the
weirdnesses I've seen here. I'm also on the Culture list but by far this list
has something the Culture doesn't.

But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal trouble for
hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further
policies added,  etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe Ronn offered
already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public domain where the
current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone. I'd even help if I was
asked to do so (not that anybody would trust me enough for it, but as symbolism
goes ;o))

> Seeing your later posting, I should add that several people have asked, all
> off-list IIRC, for a discussion of Jeroen's legal notice, which I find
> bothersome, too.

Yes I imagine it is. Unfortunatly more so for the list ...eh... managers :o)
then for the rest of us. Pardon me saying so but it sounds a bit like some of
our current members have been ... eh eh. running to daddy..

> At the risk of being paternalistic, I'll note that some
> people were quietly following a policy of not ever replying to a message
> with that notice, and I wasn't sure that Jeroen even realized.  But many
> have spoken up along those line since we began the discussion.

It is a policy that has been used (succesfully) in the past. It won't help
everytime (as the situation with DB/Gord and then Mark and on several occasions
Jeroen and also a few other cases has shown) but on average it is a good policy.

Contrary to popular believe freedom has a price. And if that means that we can
get inconvenienced from time to time by a bit of a racous well I don't mind. I
mean I've realised a long time ago that I don't have to participate in any of
that and I don't even have to read it if I don't like it/don't wan't to. :o) And
I believe that as long as there is a majority of us willing to ... relent, have
fun, get serious, get to the hart of things, get clobbered for throwing in
something totally controversial I think we'll be OK.

> 

Just one more thing.

So far I've seen a lot to contradict your statement that this list isn't owned
but merely managed by you. Unfortunatly I have to stand by my opinion that for
all present purposes you own the list. I base this opinion on the past
experiences where you have been acting accordingly on several occasions, always
with apparantly good and understandable reasons but still. The fact that you
admit that it isn't a democracy (and correct me if I'm wrong I understood that
remark as implying that you'll have the last word no matter what) enforces my
opinion in this matter. That it isn't a totallitarian (yet?) regime doesn't
really help much to convince me of the oposite being true.

Sonja :o)

GCU: Ungratefull brat. ;o)

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Erik Reuter

On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:52:08AM +, Richard Baker wrote:
> GCU Struggling To Keep Up

Could almost be turned into an ad for a brokerage or investment
management firm:

"Today's global market moves faster than ever. Are you struggling to
keep up? We can help..."


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo

From: "Robert Seeberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:48:30 -0600
Whopper?

Burger King is British owned IIRC.

xponent
Fun House Maru
rob

DOH!

JJ

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 00:25 13-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote:


I have known Nick for quite some time now (close to ten years), and he has 
always been known for been a man of outstanding character, a great sense 
of justice, and an intutive knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

I get this feeling that you are talking about an entirely different Nick 
Arnett; the Nick Arnett *I* know has shown himself to have a questionable 
character and have a somewhat twisted interpretation of the concepts 
"justice" and "right & wrong". And I have the e-mail messages to back that.


That, I believe, more than qualifies Nick for being the administrator or 
owner, whatever you want to call him, of Brin-L.

Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified for 
the job.


I have to agree with Julia 110%: Nick, as the current administrator of 
this list, has not only the right, but the duty to defend and protect both 
himself and the interests of the subscribers of the list.

Then explain how silencing a listmember (by moderation, threats of 
moderation, and threats of banishment), refusing to discuss his actions, 
and even telling a member "if you even *mention*  either 
on-list or off-list, I will throw you off the list forever" is "defending 
himself and the interests of the subscribers".


Jeroen "Bad Idea" van Baardwijk

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LEGAL NOTICE:
By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies 
(both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, 
and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative 
consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you.

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 08:56 13-2-2003 -0600, Ronn Blankenship wrote:


 The First Amendment to the US Constitution gives me the right 
to free speech, to express my political or religious or other opinion, no 
matter how offensive some may find it, but it doesn't guarantee me an 
audience.  

However, the US Constitution and its Amendments don't apply to this list. 
Your First Amendment right to free speech only means that the US government 
cannot force you to shut up when you say something they disagree with.

Or at least, that's what someone else on this list said last year, when I 
claimed the US Constitution gave me the right to free speech.


Jeroen "You have the right to remain silent" van Baardwijk

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LEGAL NOTICE:
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(both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, 
and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative 
consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you.

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 10:43 13-2-2003 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote:


That's easy for you to say, Ronn. I wonder if you'd have the same
opinion if you ran your own business and also hosted the Brin-L list on
your own machine, thus exposing yourself to possible lawsuits, frivolous
or otherwise.


Nick knew about those (alleged) risks when he offered to host the list. If 
he doesn't want to be exposed to those risks, then he shouldn't have made 
his offer in the first place, and should transfer the list to someone 
else's server.


Jeroen "In for a penny, in for a pound" van Baardwijk

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(both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, 
and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative 
consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you.

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo

From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:54:57 +0100

But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal trouble 
for
hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further
policies added,  etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe Ronn offered
already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public domain where 
the
current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone.

Hi, Sonja.

Why should he finish his work with the list? Trying to reduce ones 
liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very 
professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any other 
similar ones in the real world.  I'd rather have someone with these 
intentions in charge of things around these parts.

My two cents..

JJ

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

Jeroen said:

> Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified
> for the job.

In your opinion, who here is qualified to be list owner/manager?

Rich, who is obviously disqualified on account of being a traitor.

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Dan Minette


- Original Message -
From: "Richard Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright


> Jeroen said:
>
> > Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified
> > for the job.
>
> In your opinion, who here is qualified to be list owner/manager?
>
> Rich, who is obviously disqualified on account of being a traitor.

To whom?  Not that I doubt that you are a traitor, I just see so many
possibilities. :-)

Dan M.


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

Dan said:

> To whom?  Not that I doubt that you are a traitor, I just see so many
> possibilities. :-)

I seem to recall that I betrayed all that is good and pure and true by
voting for Jeroen's listowner powers to be removed a while ago.

Rich
GCU Perfidious Albion

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Dan Minette


- Original Message -
From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright


> >From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> >Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:54:57 +0100
> >
>
> >But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal
trouble
> >for
> >hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further
> >policies added,  etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe Ronn
offered
> >already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public domain
where
> >the
> >current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone.
>
> Hi, Sonja.
>
> Why should he finish his work with the list? Trying to reduce ones
> liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very
> professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any
other
> similar ones in the real world.  I'd rather have someone with these
> intentions in charge of things around these parts.
>

I agree fully.  The concept "you were aware of the risks to begin with, so
don't you dare mitigate them." seems silly (Not Sonja's point, but someone
else's).  Nick's provides us with a premium service doing it this way, and
I appreciate that.

Dan M.


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Dan Minette


- Original Message -
From: "Richard Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright


> Dan said:
>
> > To whom?  Not that I doubt that you are a traitor, I just see so many
> > possibilities. :-)
>
> I seem to recall that I betrayed all that is good and pure and true by
> voting for Jeroen's listowner powers to be removed a while ago.
>

Oh, but there there's the compass factor, (see Little Big Man) so you're
OK.

Dan M.



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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 13:43 13-2-2003 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:


Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross 
exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative consequences.

The word "threat" does not suggest _extremely negative_ consequences.  It 
merely identifies negative consequences.

Must be a cultural difference then. Unlike a certain subset of Americans 
(of which some people on this list are members, sadly), over here we don't 
yell "threat" at the first hint of something negative that might happen. 
Where I live, consequences have to be very grave before mentioning those 
consequences is called a threat.


You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary 
to acquaint yourself with proper usage.

I'll be helpful: Threat is defined as "an expression of intention to 
inflict evil, injury, or damage." (m-w.com)  Your "legal notice" 
essentially says you are not responsible for any damage that might result 
to others from direct and deliberate actions made by you.

That is not a *threat*, that is a *disclaimer*. You might consider looking 
up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with 
proper usage.

BTW, the definition you give of "threat" proves you wrong, and actually 
proves that my Legal Notice does not contain any threats; nowhere do I 
mention any intent to "inflict evil, injury or damage". Damage *might* 
result from publishing your message elsewhere, but doing damage is not the 
*intent* behind publishing your message elsewhere.

Only the first part of my Legal Notice ("your replies may be published 
elsewhere") could possibly be interpreted as a threat, and even then it is 
only a threat in the definition used by a certain extremely oversensitive 
subset of the US public.

On a side note, I don't get the impression that anyone on this list 
actually realises the purpose of including that Legal Notice.


Well, we speak English as our native language.  We would be expected to 
use it correctly,


And, IMO, it's a rather hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who 
uses the phrase 'zero tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line.

Personally, I find it extremely funny that you first say that native 
speakers would be expected to use English correctly, and then manage to 
make the same spelling error *twice* in the same sentence. It's all the 
more dumb since you could have simply copied and pasted that particular 
part of the sentence.

You might consider looking up the various words of your last sentence in an 
English language dictionary to find out what word you misspelled, and what 
the proper spelling is.


Jeroen van Baardwijk -- not a native speaker, but better at spelling

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LEGAL NOTICE:
By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies 
(both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, 
and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative 
consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you.


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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

At 14:41 14-2-2003 +, Jose Ortiz wrote:


Trying to reduce ones liabilities and maximize protection for the list 
members is, imho, a very professional and responsible way to respond to 
this situation, and any other similar ones in the real world.

The problem is not that he tries to reduce liabilities and maximise 
protection for listmembers. The problem lies with *how* he tries to 
accomplish that.


Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk

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LEGAL NOTICE:
By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies 
(both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, 
and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative 
consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you.

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Ronn!Blankenship

At 04:30 PM 2/14/03 +0100, J. van Baardwijk wrote:


Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk




At least you're finally being out in the open about it.




-- Ronn!  :)

Almighty Ruler of the all,
Whose Power extends to great and small,
Who guides the stars with steadfast law,
Whose least creation fills with awe,
O grant thy mercy and thy grace,
To those who venture into space.

(Robert A. Heinlein's added verse to the Navy Hymn)


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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Nick Arnett

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten

...

> That you realise that, shows some good sense on your part. You
> know the limits
> of what you can get away with.  (This isn't intended
> as harsh as it
> probably sounds, but I couln't find a better phrasing.)

I was known for that as a child...  but I hope that in managing the list, I
stay quite far from what I *could* do.

> Yes, mine for one. I like the brin-l anarchy. It gives
> interesting ideas a place
> and at times even the strangest voices are heard.

I like the anarchy, too, and so for the last few days, after reading one of
Erik's posts to this thread, I'm leaning quite heavily toward not having a
new policy about copyright.  Given any question about a matter, I think it's
clear that the community prefers to err on the side of anarchy.  And I'm not
sure when the addition of list policies might end.

> But, Nick, if indeed you can sincerely get into any kind of legal
> trouble for
> hosting the list as it currently is (without further moderation, further
> policies added,  etc.) I'd rather have someone else (I believe
> Ronn offered
> already) take over and run the list somewhere else on a public
> domain where the
> current anarchy doesn't pose a legal problem for anyone.

I don't think there's any such thing, with the possible exception of an old
gun platform off the coast of England.  (See http://www.sealandgov.com/)

> So far I've seen a lot to contradict your statement that this
> list isn't owned
> but merely managed by you. Unfortunatly I have to stand by my
> opinion that for
> all present purposes you own the list.

Perhaps we still disagree, then.  For me, it's something like the idea that
I own my copy of "Glory Season," but David Brin owns the intellectual
property.  Wave the book and ask, "Who owns this book?"  The obvious answer
is "me," but it is equally true that the answer "David Brin" is correct.
The server is mine, but the stuff that passes through it, like the words DB
writes, belong to the authors and the community.

Nick

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

"J. van Baardwijk" wrote:

> Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk

I'd most certainly vote against that happening. There are too many people you
have issues with on this list.

Sonja :o)

GCU: But I still love you

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Jon Gabriel

From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:16:06 +0100

"J. van Baardwijk" wrote:

> Jeroen "Time to take over" van Baardwijk

I'd be most surprised if the uprising he's been calling for didn't take 
place immediately thereafter.  ;-)

I'd most certainly vote against that happening. There are too many people 
you
have issues with on this list.

Sonja :o)

GCU: But I still love you

Awww. :) Happy Valentine's Day, anyway. :)
Jon

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RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Jon Gabriel

From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:09:34 +0100

At 13:43 13-2-2003 -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote:

Jose interpreted my Legal Notice as a "threat", which is a gross 
exaggeration, as the word "threat" suggests extremely negative 
consequences.

The word "threat" does not suggest _extremely negative_ consequences.  It 
merely identifies negative consequences.

Must be a cultural difference then. Unlike a certain subset of Americans 
(of which some people on this list are members, sadly), over here we don't 
yell "threat" at the first hint of something negative that might happen.

You have made some serious threats in the past.  Considering the precedent, 
they may be entitled to be jumpy about it. :(

Where I live, consequences have to be very grave before mentioning those 
consequences is called a threat.

With regard to this, a threat simply describes intent to do harm.  You 
characterize it by describing it's severity.

You might consider looking up the word in an English language dictionary 
to acquaint yourself with proper usage.

I'll be helpful: Threat is defined as "an expression of intention to 
inflict evil, injury, or damage." (m-w.com)  Your "legal notice" 
essentially says you are not responsible for any damage that might result 
to others from direct and deliberate actions made by you.

That is not a *threat*, that is a *disclaimer*. You might consider looking 
up the word in an English language dictionary to acquaint yourself with 
proper usage.

You have threatened (and seemed most intent and serious about it, too) to 
post a wall of shame that would have very real life, damaging consequences 
to many list members.  Your legal disclaimer is designed to hold you 
blameless if (and when) your actions cause harm.  I stand by my original 
post.

BTW, the definition you give of "threat" proves you wrong, and actually 
proves that my Legal Notice does not contain any threats; nowhere do I 
mention any intent to "inflict evil, injury or damage". Damage *might* 
result from publishing your message elsewhere, but doing damage is not the 
*intent* behind publishing your message elsewhere.

I am, as usual, not interested in debating semantics with you.  You have 
proven yourself most capable of taking action in the past that is intended 
to cause real life harm to people on this list.  Your disclaimer is designed 
to protect you if you do so again.

Only the first part of my Legal Notice ("your replies may be published 
elsewhere") could possibly be interpreted as a threat, and even then it is 
only a threat in the definition used by a certain extremely oversensitive 
subset of the US public.

On a side note, I don't get the impression that anyone on this list 
actually realises the purpose of including that Legal Notice.

If it's anything other than what I just described, I'd be most interested in 
hearing about it.

Well, we speak English as our native language.  We would be expected to 
use it correctly,

And, IMO, it's a rather hypocritical sentiment coming from someone who 
uses the phrase 'zero tolerence for intolerence' as part of his sig line.

Personally, I find it extremely funny that you first say that native 
speakers would be expected to use English correctly, and then manage to 
make the same spelling error *twice* in the same sentence. It's all the 
more dumb since you could have simply copied and pasted that particular 
part of the sentence.

You might consider looking up the various words of your last sentence in an 
English language dictionary to find out what word you misspelled, and what 
the proper spelling is.

Jeroen van Baardwijk -- not a native speaker, but better at spelling

Heh.  I was a NYS Spelling Bee Semi-Finals winner when I was in fourth 
grade.  You'd think I would have better skill at telling the difference 
between an "e" and an "a".  :)

Did you have an actual rebuttal to my comment, or were you just tring to 
deflect attention away from the accuracy of my statement by being snarky?

Jon

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

2003-02-14 Thread Jon Gabriel

From: Richard Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:42:42 +

Jeroen said:

> Given his behaviour so far, I believe he is anything *but* qualified
> for the job.

In your opinion, who here is qualified to be list owner/manager?

Rich, who is obviously disqualified on account of being a traitor.

That's "bloody fucking traitor" if I remember correctly. :(

(I have that post archived.  Highly unpleasant.)

Jon
But hey, at least we're able to "impose our pathetic intolerant hate-filled 
minority views on an entire community" Maru
ROU The Wax of Memory

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright

Dan Minette wrote:

> - Original Message -
> From: "Jose J. Ortiz-Carlo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
>
> > >From: Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright
> > >Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:54:57 +0100
> > >

> > Hi, Sonja.
> >
> > Why should he finish his work with the list? Trying to reduce ones
> > liabilities and maximize protection for the list members is, imho, a very
> > professional and responsible way to respond to this situation, and any
> other
> > similar ones in the real world.

So is bombing a possible terrorist location, with overwhelming fire power, but
as with everything, I feel that the respons should be in accordance with the
actual threat. :o)

>  I'd rather have someone with these
> > intentions in charge of things around these parts.
> >

I gather then that you do feel threatened. I guess that  is your right. I
(knowing Jeroen up close and personal, just as some of you know Nick up close
and personal) very much doubt there is a real threat.
Another thing I've notices is that a lot of Nick's 'friends' (maybe I should
say list buddies, ? :o)) don't mind if someone is altering the list to
accomodate their own wishes and responsibillities. OK, that is their perogative
as well. :o). But I for one feel that Nick should keep his fingers of the list
policies as they are. If he wants to provide us the service, do the work as
list admin and be damned for it in the process ;o),  I'm the more gratefull for
it. But if the condition for all those niceties is going to be that there are
going to be more and more rules for people who wanne play and the rules are
going to be more and exclusively Nick's rules because he hosts the list and
because he has (very legitimatly and understandably) a right to protect
himself, well then I for one decline the offer. :o)

> I agree fully.  The concept "you were aware of the risks to begin with, so
> don't you dare mitigate them." seems silly (Not Sonja's point, but someone
> else's).

So why the *&%#@! are you putting this together with stuff I wrote? I'd say
that leaves me standing pretty ugly, wouldn't you? It wasn't a nice thing to
do, especially since I think I presented a rather good case against
implementing more policies.

> Nick's provides us with a premium service doing it this way, and
> I appreciate that.

Yes as do I, very much so, especially because he does seem to put in an awfull
lot of work. But I just don't like what he's charging us for it. :o) Or what he
might charge us in the future for that matter :o)

Sonja
GCU: I'm not a trusting soul, must be those windows. ;o)

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Re: POLICY PROPOSAL: The list and copyright