Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 09:48 PM 1/12/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So why didn't Bush immediately demand that the leak about Plame, attributed to a white house source, be investigated? Doesn't sound like upholding laws to me. He did. John Ashcroft recently recused himself from that very same probe. Yeh, kind of like lying about affairs. So? Clinton had a much higher responsibility, like to faithfully uphold and defend the laws of the United States. And lying about an affair in what way significantly way precludes him from faithfully upholding and defending the laws of the US? We seem back in absolute morality territory here John. Come on Bob.IT IS CALLED PERJURY!I am shouting because that was posted at least twice on the List in the past day, and I know full well that you know what crime is at stake here.And yet, you somehow can't connect the two? But I forgot, lying is only criminal when Republicans do it. But at any rate, why *was* Clinton compelled to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones case? It was because Clinton himself pushed a law through Congress called the Violence Against Women Act that made a man's entire sexual curriculum vitae fair game in any claim of sexual harrassment.So let us be clear here, Clinton did not just undermine the foundations of America's judicial system by committing perjury - he did so because he felt that the provisions of his own law should not apply to him. If any Republican ever committed so craven an act, all the liberals on this List would be all over him and the coming police state in America. And yet, Democrats couldn't stomach impeaching their criminal President, even though the Constitution expressly provides for such a situation by virtue of allowing the President to name a hand-picked successor as Vice-President. Of course, the last laugh is on all you liberals who despair so much about this Bush Presidency because I think that it is almost absolutely certain that an incumbent Al Gore running for re-election with a rip-roaring economy wins either New Hampshire or Florida to continue a potential 10-year Presidency. Ah what could have been, eh? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/13/2004 4:03:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 09:48 PM 1/12/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So why didn't Bush immediately demand that the leak about Plame, attributed to a white house source, be investigated? Doesn't sound like upholding laws to me. He did. John Ashcroft recently recused himself from that very same probe. John - The story broke in July. That is when the probe should have occurred. Bush did not instigate the investigation. He did not (on the surface at least) fight it. Ashcroft recused himself well into the investigation. Since by defiintion it had to entail some of his friends and colleagues (Rove ran one of his campaigns I believe) whyd didn't he do it earlier. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/11/2004 9:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeh, kind of like lying about affairs. So? Clinton had a much higher responsibility, like to faithfully uphold and defend the laws of the United States. And lying about an affair in what way significantly way precludes him from faithfully upholding and defending the laws of the US? We seem back in absolute morality territory here John. So why didn't Bush immediately demand that the leak about Plame, attributed to a white house source, be investigated? Doesn't sound like upholding laws to me. Rush is just a talk radio show host, who has said a lot of intersting things in his life that had nothing to do with drugs. There is nothing about what he was doing with drugs that at all affects the validity or interesting nature of his opinions. Yes he had done lots of interesting tghings including being married several times. As to his opinions, they of course do extend beyond the merely political to all sort of life issues. So I think the fact that he used drugs illegally hid his illegal drug use, that he gave some lame excuse, that he is trying to hide behind some legal manuevers all indicate that he does not behave in any way that approximates his public stance on morality etc. One's views do not have to jibe with one's actions but people who behave like this are by definition hypocrites. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/11/2004 9:11:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Let me use a relevant example. Would it be hypocrisy for a high school student who believes that the Federal Education Loan program is unconstitutional under the limited powers clause to accept federal education loans to go to college?Even though the existance of these loans have caused the prices of higher education to skyrocket? I answer no to that question it would *not* be hypocrisy in my mind. Indeed, the existance of these loans have so distorted the market for higher education, in terms of driving private loans out of the market and escalating the price that it would be only sensible to accept these loans, even in spite of one's views But of course if one holds strong moral views then one should follow those views. It is of course at least mildly hypocritical to take a loan under these circumstances but it would be much more hypocritical to take such a loan and then having received an education to fight to have such loans eliminated. Of course I do not accept your suggestion that in the abscence of student loan programs there would inexpensive commercial loans. So let me try this another way. If Rush's behavior is not hypocrital than provide me an example of hypocracy. But to make it a bit more challenging to you. The hypothetical hypocricy cannot be the actions of a democrat/liberal that is it cannot be anything like a dirty liberal who says she holds life sacred but accepts abortion for that is not hypocricy that is a different moral position than yours. As opposed to someone who explicitly behaves in a manner that he/she considers wrong. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:12 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you condone his behavior or not? No, I do not condone the abuse of prescription drugs. Lets get back to Plame. Do you condone the outing of a CIA operative? I do not condone the outing of a CIA operative. JDG - As long as we are being technical. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:22 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a Catholic, I find it completely unsuprising that a sinner would admit to wrongdoing only when caught. Such is human nature. Yeh, kind of like lying about affairs. So? Clinton had a much higher responsibility, like to faithfully uphold and defend the laws of the United States. Rush is just a talk radio show host, who has said a lot of intersting things in his life that had nothing to do with drugs. There is nothing about what he was doing with drugs that at all affects the validity or interesting nature of his opinions. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:29 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:48:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In general, however, I have no problem with Rush Limbaugh using all of the Laws of Florida - even potentially those laws he may have disagreed with - in his legal defence.In my mind, that's not hypocrisy - that's life. You are such a tolerant soul. It so good that you are willing to grant humans their frailties. But it would seem to me that using a legal technique for your personal defense that you have condemned for others qualifies as an index example of the human frailty called hypocricy Let me use a relevant example. Would it be hypocrisy for a high school student who believes that the Federal Education Loan program is unconstitutional under the limited powers clause to accept federal education loans to go to college?Even though the existance of these loans have caused the prices of higher education to skyrocket? I answer no to that question it would *not* be hypocrisy in my mind. Indeed, the existance of these loans have so distorted the market for higher education, in terms of driving private loans out of the market and escalating the price that it would be only sensible to accept these loans, even in spite of one's views. JDG - Who does not consider education loans to be unconstitutional. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:19 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:30:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Point 1 _ There seems to be no debate on the fact that Halliburton overcharged. Even the incredibly pro-business Bush administration is not making your claim. Halliburton overcharged period. Not true. A NY Times invetigation of this story found no significant profiteering by Haliburton. What is not true? Some one (I don't know if it was you or not) claimed that it was not really overcharging. I am still waiting for any one of the conservatives on the list to state up front that overcharging is a crime that must be pursued. Why? Do you think that any conservatives on this List are going to disagree with President Bush's statements that essentially say that?Or do you expect that all of us disagree with Bush on this point? So is that a yes? Yes. Bush himself said that there should be a full investigation. Heck it was Rumsfeld's own Defense Dept. that first raised the questions about this. At any rate, I highly doubt that any conservative on this List would contradict President Bush's judgment that there should be a full investitgation. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:14 PM 1/5/2004 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:30:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's funny and ironic. My Dad recently accused me of always seeing sinister motivations among the right, and being far quicker to criticize conservatives lately than liberals. Well we all have different relationships with our dads. Rest assured I have never seen you to be hard on conservatives. Could you give us an example of being hard on conservatives on list? I think that it is important for you to remember, however, what an ideological bubble Brin-L is. For example, I am probably considered by most the be the most religious person on this List. Yet, I am a Catholic... which instantly points out that we have no Evangelicals on this List.Moreover, as a Catholic, I am fairly middle-of-the-road by many measures. I don't, for example, attend Daily Mass - which is generally the first mark of the truly conservative Catholics. A good example of this - I disagree pretty strongly with the Catholic Church on the issue of contraception and disagree with certain Vatican statemets on homosexuals in the priesthood.Yet, we don't talk about these things here because I highly doubt that there is anyone on this List who wants the defend the Catholic Church's teaching on contraception nor advocate a ban on homsexuals in the priesthood. While this example comes from the religious side of the spectrum, it highlights the general trend with Brin-L.The vast majority of Brin-L posters on political disscussions are far left to center-left. Thus, it becomes an ideological bubble where very little of the debates on the right take place, except for maybe an occasional disagreement between Gautam and I. Yet, there is no one on this List who is regularly reposting the articles and views of conservatives like Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Pat Buchanan, John Derbyshire, etc. whom I disagree with all of the time. Thus, when debates are kept solidly on the far-left to center-left, the disagreements on the right never really show up. Lastly, it is worth noting that I am essentially a neoconservative, and thus the Bush Administration is like a dream come true for me - to the extent the real politicians can fulfill dreams. I would never have imagine five years ago that we would have a President capable of giving the axis of evil speech - let alone so many other incredible speeches. Likewise, in sort of the same way that Bill Clinton was called by some liberals our first black President, when I hear Bush talk about the Culture of Life, I feel like we similarly have our nation's second Catholic President.On several other issues like faith-based-initiatives, immigration reform, Social Security, and space exploration, Bush gets extremely high marks from me. Thus, when Bush is essentially everything I could hope for in a President - you just aren't going to see a lot of criticism of the Bush Administration in particular from me. However, Bush has plenty of his criticis on the right - just listen to talk radio some day. Of course, here on Brin-L the idea of Bush being attacked on the right is almost inconceivable, so again, you never seen these sorts of things. JDG - Now, if he could just balance the budget in the second term.. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:11:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is not ture. By no stretch of the imagination did *all* leftists on the List call Clinton's actions reprehensible.Indeed, several called Clinton's actions understandable, given the circumstances. There was also very little criticism of soliciting campaign donations from China, raising money in Buddhist temples, and not invading Afghanistan after our embassies were destroyed. Well first of all understandable is not incompatible with reprehensible in the sense that his behavior in denying the relationship would be a relatively common but unacceptable behavior. I repeat that I do not remember anyone who condoned his behavior. But lets get back to Rush. Do you condone his behavior or not? Lets get back to Plame. Do you condone the outing of a CIA operative? But that's debating the past. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:30:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's funny and ironic. My Dad recently accused me of always seeing sinister motivations among the right, and being far quicker to criticize conservatives lately than liberals. Well we all have different relationships with our dads. Rest assured I have never seen you to be hard on conservatives. Could you give us an example of being hard on conservatives on list? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:30:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Point 1 _ There seems to be no debate on the fact that Halliburton overcharged. Even the incredibly pro-business Bush administration is not making your claim. Halliburton overcharged period. Not true. A NY Times invetigation of this story found no significant profiteering by Haliburton. What is not true? Some one (I don't know if it was you or not) claimed that it was not really overcharging. I am still waiting for any one of the conservatives on the list to state up front that overcharging is a crime that must be pursued. Why? Do you think that any conservatives on this List are going to disagree with President Bush's statements that essentially say that?Or do you expect that all of us disagree with Bush on this point? So is that a yes? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:41:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As a Catholic, I find it completely unsuprising that a sinner would admit to wrongdoing only when caught. Such is human nature. Yeh, kind of like lying about affairs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 1/3/2004 6:48:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In general, however, I have no problem with Rush Limbaugh using all of the Laws of Florida - even potentially those laws he may have disagreed with - in his legal defence.In my mind, that's not hypocrisy - that's life. You are such a tolerant soul. It so good that you are willing to grant humans their frailties. But it would seem to me that using a legal technique for your personal defense that you have condemned for others qualifies as an index example of the human frailty called hypocricy ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 08:51 PM 12/25/2003 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In all of the Clinton stuff us leftists on the list specifically stated that his behavior was reprehensible. I am waiting to see that from you guys. This is not ture. By no stretch of the imagination did *all* leftists on the List call Clinton's actions reprehensible.Indeed, several called Clinton's actions understandable, given the circumstances. There was also very little criticism of soliciting campaign donations from China, raising money in Buddhist temples, and not invading Afghanistan after our embassies were destroyed. But that's debating the past. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 12:12 PM 12/27/2003 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Point 1 _ There seems to be no debate on the fact that Halliburton overcharged. Even the incredibly pro-business Bush administration is not making your claim. Halliburton overcharged period. Not true. A NY Times invetigation of this story found no significant profiteering by Haliburton. I am still waiting for any one of the conservatives on the list to state up front that overcharging is a crime that must be pursued. Why? Do you think that any conservatives on this List are going to disagree with President Bush's statements that essentially say that?Or do you expect that all of us disagree with Bush on this point? Frankly I think John and Gautam (to a lesser extent) start with the premise that the right is good and the left is bad. That's funny and ironic. My Dad recently accused me of always seeing sinister motivations among the right, and being far quicker to criticize conservatives lately than liberals. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:49 PM 12/24/2003 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rush admitted to his problem only after it became the subject of an investigation. As a Catholic, I find it completely unsuprising that a sinner would admit to wrongdoing only when caught. Such is human nature. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 11:18 PM 12/24/2003 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Correct if I am wrong but wasn't it the press who uncovered Halliburton's actions? No, the press was reporting on the results of a Defense Dept. investigation. By the way doesn't your arguement imply that Clinton deserves credit for is own impeachment since the special prosecutor was appointed during his administration? Don't be ridiculous. The Left has been wailing for months and months that Cheney Co. were looting America to provide profits to Haliburton.Obviously, if the Defense Dept. is uncovering potential overcharging on a contract where Haliburton is earning minimal profits that is unquestionably not the case. JDG - The country formerly known as the USA Maru? ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 04:15 PM 12/24/2003 -0800 Doug Pensinger wrote: God, I hope so because four more years with these jokers in charge will be a disaster not only for the country, but the entire world. Speaking of disasters for the world just think that the freedom of 38 million Iraqis and the very lives of several million of those were held in the balance by a few thousand voters in Florida. Allahu Akbar - God Bless President Bush JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 07:19 PM 12/24/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: If it were a doctor being investigated then I could see the constitutional protection. But can you show some reference that would support your claim that a patient has a constitutional protection in a case where the patient is being investigated for criminal activity? I've never seen the argument John is making presented before, and I'm quite curious as to how that would work. And why. In a criminal investigation, the investigators have to follow certain procedures, such as obtaining a warrant in carrying out a search.Rush Limbaugh - according to the statements on his website at least - did not contest here that his medical records can never be searched, but rather that the officials involved did not follow the Laws of Florida in carrying out their investigation of his records. In general, however, I have no problem with Rush Limbaugh using all of the Laws of Florida - even potentially those laws he may have disagreed with - in his legal defence.In my mind, that's not hypocrisy - that's life. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:37 PM 12/24/2003 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So John: Is Rush a hypocrite? yes or no. No. Should the person who leaked Valerie Ps name be prosecuted? If a crime was committed yes. Valerie Plame, however, was the wife of an ambassador - so I still question just exactly how undercover she really was. Furthermore, my understanding is that the law specifies that the person must *know* that they are outing an undercover agent to have committed a crime. So, if a crime was committed, yes they should be prosecuted. I think that Ashcroft's recusal from the case should indicate that the investigatino is proceeding unimpeded. Should there be an investigation of Halliburton's profiteering (by the way that is what is called and in the past profiteers were tried for treason). Yes. And indeed there already is. And indeed an independent investigation by the NY Times did not find any evidence of profiteering. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/26/2003 8:59:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Two things, because I have to go. How is importing gas from Turkey cheaper? On a strict price basis, 117 is less than 227, but is it safer, shorter, less manpower/equipment needed? Should the government auditor be fired or prosecuted for revealing internal documents? Point 1 _ There seems to be no debate on the fact that Halliburton overcharged. Even the incredibly pro-business Bush administration is not making your claim. Halliburton overcharged period. Point 2 - Exactly why should the auditor be fired? If he/she worked for Halliburton it was his/her obligation to do an unbiased audit and report it to the company. That the results of this audit became public would not be his/her responsibility and unless she/he went to the press and governmemt with the info after being ignored by Halliburton. As Doug states if this were the case the person would clearly be protected by Whistle Blower laws. If in fact the audit was sent to goverment and made public by the government then there can be no crime. I am still waiting for any one of the conservatives on the list to state up front that overcharging is a crime that must be pursued. I know it is tough for you guys so let me offer you a suggestion. I will simply substitute Rush for Bill Clinton and provide you with the formulation that us lefty commie liberals used. I do not condone the actions of Clinton -Limbaugh. They were reprehensible and no glib emotional apology is acceptable given that Bill-Rush did not come clean until caught in his lie/illegal drug purchase. Having said this I do not believe that these actions warrent impeachment/crimal prosecution. I do believe that given his position as president/spokesman for the right that his actions represent are especially reprehensible I have no problem with principled conservatism. I think it completely reasonable to hold that individuals are responsible for their own behavior and that government should not intefer with individual actions or the market economy. Opposition to abortion gay marriage etc are all legitimate positions. I do not hold them but I can respect those who hold these views just as I can respect people who are principled communists or socialists. But too often conservatism is espoused not as a political philosophy but a moral stance. Frankly I think John and Gautam (to a lesser extent) start with the premise that the right is good and the left is bad. So any action by the right can be defended as either principled or a necessary expediant to achieve a goal. But actions are taken by the right or the left. They are taken by indiviudals of the right or the left. And these indiduals and groups inevitably act in what they see as their self interest regardless of their political philosophy. One need only point to the messy and in some cases dispicable behavior of several prominent pro-family conservatives to understand this point ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
--- Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it's nice to see that the flap over environmentalism was short-lived. . . -- Ronn! :) Professional Smart-Aleck. Do Not Attempt. evil grin I haven't yet read your 'skeptical' post, so don't jump to hasty conclusions quite yet! OTOH, I haven't got a lot of time tonight, so I mayn't say anything for awhile...except that that I heard some federal judge is blocking the Admin's changes to the Clean Air Act b/c of several states (and/or dept's of health?) saying it will hurt public health. Another thing to look up... Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Why does arguing that there is no constitution right to privacy to have abortions or homosexual relationships at all apply to the execution of the laws of Florida regarding medical records? Or more generally, what is so inconsistent about saying that there is no right to privacy to have an abortion or a homosexual relationship, but that there is a right to privacy that protects one from a government's unreasonable search of your medical records? jaw dropping How can you *possibly* equate sexual activity between consenting adults to abortion? Especially since homosexual sex has *no* chance of leading to abortion? Deborah, I have made no such equation. Rather, I am referring to the fact that Roe vs. Wade is the _original_ right to privacy case in the United States.The US Supreme Court in that case, did not find a right to abortion in that case - how could they? - but rather found that 'the penumbra of the Constitution' contains a right to privacy. snip Thank you for the clarification. I also haven't read anything about the Limbaugh case, which is why I only commented on medicals records and privacy from a single perspective. There are, as others have pointed out, times when public safety outweighs doctor-patient confidentiality, but those situations are (and ought to be) quite circumscribed. Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 06:22:33 -0500, Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 01:37 AM 12/25/2003, you wrote: Gautam wrote: If the Washington Post wants to say that something wrong happened here, I'll get upset. Since so far they're said that there is no story here, that's what I believe. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13397-2003Dec18.html This extraordinary internal audit suggests that Halliburton had been previously warned by its own auditors that it was overcharging for the fuel but apparently ignored these important warnings and continued to charge the federal government inflated prices, he wrote. -- Doug Nice deflection. Who, exactly, is the he, in the statement above ending he wrote? Is it the Halliburton internal auditor? Well, the way the statement reads it shouldn't be. Is it the government defense auditor? That seems most likely, a person not working for the company wrote this; but that'd be false too. The he in the above statement is none other than Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) in a letter to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. It seems unlikely that Lieberman would fabricate such a story, and KBRs refusal to make the audit public speaks volumes. In other articles I've read that they were making something like $0.26/gallon profit which is outrageously high. Two things, because I have to go. How is importing gas from Turkey cheaper? On a strict price basis, 117 is less than 227, but is it safer, shorter, less manpower/equipment needed? Should the government auditor be fired or prosecuted for revealing internal documents? Don't know about the first question, but I think the auditor (which I don't think was a government employee - the audit was described as internal) should be protected by whistle blower laws. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 07:38 PM 12/24/2003 -0800 Doug Pensinger wrote: John wrote: Actually medical records are somewhat private under the Consitution, as they are protected by the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure. Isn't that the very arguement that Limbaugh has contested in the past and that prompted the title for this thread? I know of no instance in which Limbaugh contest the right of a citizen to have his or her medical records protected from unreasonable search. The editorial which prompted the title for this thread referenced a case in which the Supreme Court held that the Constitution emmanated a penumbra from which was brought forth a right to privacy that protected one's right to do whatever one wanted, even when the police should happen to stumble into said bedroom on a legal search warrant. Clearly, the two are very much different. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 07:31 PM 12/24/03, Julia Thompson wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the current president has not done a stellar job (though I would agree that he is capable of better than he has done). I think that for the most part he has done, in regards to the standout issues of this term, about as well as an average quality president. Bush *himself*, has done better than I would have ever given him credit for being capable of. That being said, I still think he is a [pick your favorite expletive], just like he was here in Texas, and I am just plain tired of him. Anyone here a fan of That 70s Show? ;) He's a Vista Cruiser? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/25/2003 12:17:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As, for that matter, was Enron. It has always struck me as ironic that the Bush Administration gets criticized for Enron. Most of the fraud and corruption took place under the Clinton Administration after all (and the same with Worldcom, Global Crossing, you name it). They were revealed under the Bush Administration. The Bush administration was criticized because of their ties to Enron in particular Ken Lay. Because of their early refusal to seek an investigation of corporate governance. Of their choice of SEC chairman and his failure to investigate these activities. And by the way it was not the Bush administration that discovered Enron's malfesence. To the extent that these activities were uncovered by legal authorities they were But once again this is irrelevant to the current discussion. In all of the Clinton stuff us leftists on the list specifically stated that his behavior was reprehensible. I am waiting to see that from you guys. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/25/2003 12:26:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, but I _don't know_ who leaked it. There actually is no evidence that it was a crime at the moment. It's a crime if she had served overseas within the past 5 years (I think that's the time span) which she has not. The _CIA itself_ made no effort to cover her identity. That's all that we know. Everything else is the fevered wishes of the left. You don't know who leaked it but Novak said it was a white house or adminstration source. So we should at least accept that this is true. So let me get the second part of your arguement straight. It may or may not be a technical crime and if it is not a technical crime then it was ok to out her for no other reason than to attempt to undermine the credibility of her husband. To out someone who put herself in danger for our country? I am shocked that the administration made up of men who sacrificed so much for the US would do that. George Bush put his life on the line as a combat pilot. No wait he was in the national guard and apparently did not actually report to his base for most of his tour of duty. And Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld and Richard Perl and Wolfowitz all risked their lives for the US as well. Well ok they did not. When this first came out Ted Kopell had 4 former CIA agents on his show. They were all outraged. Let me try this out on you. Suppose that Novak had reported that an unnamed administration source had said that the administration had good information that the african story was a fraud. How would Bush have responded to this leak? Would he have ignored it? How would you respond? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
On Tuesday 2003-12-23 23:27, Deborah Harrell wrote: jaw dropping How can you *possibly* equate sexual activity between consenting adults to abortion? Especially since homosexual sex has *no* chance of leading to abortion? With the disclaimer that I do not know JDG's personal views on the matter, homosexuality and other sexual practices are *NOT* private matters for many conservatives. At minimum they involve issues of sin and morality and at most they have grossly corossive effects on society, possibly even leading to Gibonian decay. I am pretty much a social darwinist (more cynical, disillusioned liberal than a real conservative), but used to work with people who were much more conservative than me. I once said that Clinton's effort to allow homosexuals in the military (then maybe 8 years history) was morally laudible (irrelevant, social darwinist remember) and importantly technically and fiscally responsible ... I was gently reminded that not everyone thought that letting gays in the military was noble, some people thought it morally reprehensible and a pernicious idea no matter how appealing from a fiscal or technocratic perspective. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 12:27 AM 12/24/03, Deborah Harrell wrote: *Graphic terms warning this paragraph* And abortion is a medical procedure, so it falls under the medical records umbrella. I personally think that parts of medical records, such as injuries sustained in a physical assault or caused accident, do need to be allowable in court; however, intimate detailed accounts such as Miss Brown being sodomized by a beer bottle, or Mr. Smith having his genitals shredded by a viciously swung chainsaw, should not be made public OTOH, it might convince the court to give the SOB some of the same rather than probation . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
Well, it's nice to see that the flap over environmentalism was short-lived . . . -- Ronn! :) Professional Smart-Aleck. Do Not Attempt. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:27 PM 12/23/2003 -0800 Deborah Harrell wrote: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Why does arguing that there is no constitution right to privacy to have abortions or homosexual relationships at all apply to the execution of the laws of Florida regarding medical records? Or more generally, what is so inconsistent about saying that there is no right to privacy to have an abortion or a homosexual relationship, but that there is a right to privacy that protects one from a government's unreasonable search of your medical records? jaw dropping How can you *possibly* equate sexual activity between consenting adults to abortion? Especially since homosexual sex has *no* chance of leading to abortion? Deborah, I have made no such equation. Rather, I am referring to the fact that Roe vs. Wade is the _original_ right to privacy case in the United States.The US Supreme Court in that case, did not find a right to abortion in that case - how could they? - but rather found that 'the penumbra of the Constitution' contains a right to privacy. Conservatives, of course, were immediately outraged that somehow this idea from the penumbra of the Constitution could somehow cast aside the central question of determining when human life begins in this case . Ever since, objection to this right to privacy has been a central tenet of the pro-life movement. As you might imagine, the Supreme Court did themselves no favor by invoking this same right to privacy from the penumbra in ruling all sodomy laws unconstitutional - especially in a way that appeared to indicate that they would soon be imposing homosexual marriage on the United States. Naturally, this invocation of the right to privacy from the penumbra would be simply wholly unconvincing to conservatives - indeed, it would instead be viewed as an antagonistic source of outrage. Anyhow, this right to privacy from the penumbra is very logically held by many people, including Rush Limbaugh, to be quite different from the Constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure that protect a citizen, such as Rush Limbaugh, from havin his medical records searched unreasonably and without due process.* JDG * - To be clear, I have not read any of the briefs in the Florida case, and these statements should not be taken as an endorsement of Mr. Limbaugh's legal position. Rather, I am simply noting that Rush Limbaugh's arguments were predicted on the Florida prosecutors' search being unreasonable and not following the due process provisions of Florida State Law - and regardless of the merit of these claims, they are logically different from the penumbra claims of the abortion and sodomy cases. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
Rather, I am referring to the fact that Roe vs. Wade is the _original_ right to privacy case in the United States. The US Supreme Court in that case, did not find a right to abortion in that case - how could they? - but rather found that 'the penumbra of the Constitution' contains a right to privacy. I believe the first right to privacy case was actually Griswold vs Connecticut in the 1960s, which overturned that state's law against the use of contraception. Tom Beck www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
--- Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. xponent Drift Maru rob Your medical records are private not because of the Constitution, but because of doctor-patient confidentiality, which is a matter of law. There isn't anything in the Constitution on that topic. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yea, and between this, the outing of the CIA agent and Bush waggling his finger at Halliburton we see how well the Right polices its own. -- Doug That would be the CIA agent who just posed in Vanity Fair, and the Halliburton that is operating at profit margins _below_ its national average for its operations in Iraq? And people wonder why Bush is at 60%. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite At 10:12 PM 12/23/2003 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. Is that always your answer? You're another? Deal with the issue at hand: Rush Limbaugh is demanding an accommodation for himself that he has expressly insisted, loudly and without compassion or mercy, not be accorded anyone else who has done similar things. This is false. I know of no instance in which Rush Limbaugh has not accorded anyone else the privacy of their medical records. I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Hm. What are his views on attorney-client privilege? I'd say doctor-patient privilege is just one step below that -- has he said anything in the past about doctor-patient privilege? Does anyone know? Other privacy rights may have less protection. Or he may think they should have less protection. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
Gautam wrote: That would be the CIA agent who just posed in Vanity Fair, Well it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference at this point does it? What's whe gonna do, grow a mustache? and the Halliburton that is operating at profit margins _below_ its national average for its operations in Iraq? And if you believe that, I've got some gas for sale. Cheap, $2.64 a gallon. And people wonder why Bush is at 60%. I think, when the campaign gets into full swing and people that normally don't think about these things or have been getting all their news from the television see how they and their country are getting screwed by this administration, that those numbers will go down quickly. God, I hope so because four more years with these jokers in charge will be a disaster not only for the country, but the entire world. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 06:15 PM 12/24/03, Doug Pensinger wrote: Gautam wrote: That would be the CIA agent who just posed in Vanity Fair, Well it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference at this point does it? What's whe gonna do, grow a mustache? and the Halliburton that is operating at profit margins _below_ its national average for its operations in Iraq? And if you believe that, I've got some gas for sale. Cheap, $2.64 a gallon. And people wonder why Bush is at 60%. I think, when the campaign gets into full swing and people that normally don't think about these things or have been getting all their news from the television see how they and their country are getting screwed by this administration, that those numbers will go down quickly. God, I hope so because four more years with these jokers in charge will be a disaster not only for the country, but the entire world. Well, there certainly isn't anyone on the Democratic side who can do as well, much less better (and that particularly includes Al Gore and HRC), so who do you want to see elected? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite --- Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. xponent Drift Maru rob Your medical records are private not because of the Constitution, but because of doctor-patient confidentiality, which is a matter of law. There isn't anything in the Constitution on that topic. Exactly! That's why they can be opened by a court order at any time. It is only a statutory protection, not a constitutional protection. xponent Hipaa Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 01:45 PM 12/24/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. xponent Drift Maru rob Your medical records are private not because of the Constitution, but because of doctor-patient confidentiality, which is a matter of law. There isn't anything in the Constitution on that topic. Actually medical records are somewhat private under the Consitution, as they are protected by the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 01:49 PM 12/24/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yea, and between this, the outing of the CIA agent and Bush waggling his finger at Halliburton we see how well the Right polices its own. -- Doug That would be the CIA agent who just posed in Vanity Fair, and the Halliburton that is operating at profit margins _below_ its national average for its operations in Iraq? But Gautam, that's not even the most ironic thing.The most ironic thing is that Doug somehow thought that the Halliburton incident was an example of the Right no policing its own - when in fact it was a Republican administration that uncovered and publicized the potential abuse. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite At 06:15 PM 12/24/03, Doug Pensinger wrote: Gautam wrote: That would be the CIA agent who just posed in Vanity Fair, Well it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference at this point does it? What's whe gonna do, grow a mustache? and the Halliburton that is operating at profit margins _below_ its national average for its operations in Iraq? And if you believe that, I've got some gas for sale. Cheap, $2.64 a gallon. And people wonder why Bush is at 60%. I think, when the campaign gets into full swing and people that normally don't think about these things or have been getting all their news from the television see how they and their country are getting screwed by this administration, that those numbers will go down quickly. God, I hope so because four more years with these jokers in charge will be a disaster not only for the country, but the entire world. Well, there certainly isn't anyone on the Democratic side who can do as well, much less better (and that particularly includes Al Gore and HRC), so who do you want to see elected? Ronn!, I would disagree. I think the current president has not done a stellar job (though I would agree that he is capable of better than he has done). I think that for the most part he has done, in regards to the standout issues of this term, about as well as an average quality president. Bush *himself*, has done better than I would have ever given him credit for being capable of. That being said, I still think he is a [pick your favorite expletive], just like he was here in Texas, and I am just plain tired of him. I passionately dislike 3 of the people he surrounds himself with and admire only 2 others. There are just too many hints of corruption in the air for my taste. Maybe there's a fire, maybe its just some joker smoking in the bathroom, but since his administration entered the Whitehouse telling lies (that the GAO disproved), I don't see much reason to lend even grudging trust. I would greatly prefer a republican candidate that I felt would run a completely honest, no bullcrap administration. Even one with the same philosophy as the Bush administration. I probably wouldn't vote for them, but I could give unreserved fealty to an Republican president who impressed me as completely sincere and forthright. xponent Goldwater For President Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
- Original Message - From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite At 01:45 PM 12/24/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. xponent Drift Maru rob Your medical records are private not because of the Constitution, but because of doctor-patient confidentiality, which is a matter of law. There isn't anything in the Constitution on that topic. Actually medical records are somewhat private under the Consitution, as they are protected by the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure. This is a question and not a challenge. If it were a doctor being investigated then I could see the constitutional protection. But can you show some reference that would support your claim that a patient has a constitutional protection in a case where the patient is being investigated for criminal activity? I've never seen the argument John is making presented before, and I'm quite curious as to how that would work. And why. xponent Lawfully Unknowledgeable Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the current president has not done a stellar job (though I would agree that he is capable of better than he has done). I think that for the most part he has done, in regards to the standout issues of this term, about as well as an average quality president. Bush *himself*, has done better than I would have ever given him credit for being capable of. That being said, I still think he is a [pick your favorite expletive], just like he was here in Texas, and I am just plain tired of him. Anyone here a fan of That 70s Show? ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
- Original Message - From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite At 01:45 PM 12/24/2003 -0800 Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. xponent Drift Maru rob Your medical records are private not because of the Constitution, but because of doctor-patient confidentiality, which is a matter of law. There isn't anything in the Constitution on that topic. Actually medical records are somewhat private under the Consitution, as they are protected by the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure. What's a reasonable search of a person for whom there is credible evidence of illegal involvement with narcotics? If there is a law against going to multiple physicians to get far more narcotics than any responsible physician would prescribe, and there is probable cause to believe that a drug addict has done this, then I don't see any a priori reason why this type of search is unreasonable. Now, I'm not opposed to Rush having his lawyers fight to keep the records private. That's his right as an American citizen. But, this is not an unprecedented invasion of privacy. If he were poor and black, dollars to donuts, he'd be wearing orange for Christmas. Dan M. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/23/2003 9:59:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. But John, it is the right that has been so firm in its moral rectitude (I could say sanctimonity if that was a word but that would be too pergaritive). If you are referring to Clinton I must reiterate that the left (aka the democrats who are of course virtually commie pigs) did not condone his actions they said they were not grounds for removal. So John: Is Rush a hypocrite? yes or no. Should the person who leaked Valerie Ps name be prosecuted? At the very least will you admit that the President should have shown outrage and investigated this leak when Novak's column came out this past summer? Yes or No. Should there be an investigation of Halliburton's profiteering (by the way that is what is called and in the past profiteers were tried for treason). Don't change the topic. Answer the questions. You claim the high ground. Deep breath and change of tone. Merry Christmas. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
John wrote: Actually medical records are somewhat private under the Consitution, as they are protected by the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure. Isn't that the very arguement that Limbaugh has contested in the past and that prompted the title for this thread? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/23/2003 11:43:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh I see, Brad, the side with the real arguments is the side which argued that the Right does not police their own very well on the basis of Rush Limbaugh arguing that State of Florida prosecutors did not properly follow the laws of Florida in asking for his private medical records to be unsealed. Your defense of Rush is extraordinarly concrete. I am always amazed when you cannot admit that anything done by a member of the right is wrong. Rush admitted to his problem only after it became the subject of an investigation. He couldn't deny it. He went into a celebrity rehab center. Don Imus (who knows of such things) scolded Rush for not entering a serious rehab facility. I am always very suspicious of the addicted to pain killers because of my back pain arguement. Someone with his resources could have received help to kick this addiction at any time. He got his drugs illegally precisely so he could continue to use them without having to see a doctor. In short his admission was by necessity his explanation rings false and his rehab should be viewed with skeptism. By the way you should know that Alan Dershowitz has said that he should not be prosecuted since since this is not standard practice. Imagine that, a card carrying liberal saying that on principle that Rush should not be prosecuted. Maybe you could learn something Alan ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/24/2003 4:49:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be the CIA agent who just posed in Vanity Fair, and the Halliburton that is operating at profit margins _below_ its national average for its operations in Iraq? She posed after she was outed. Forget about her; what about the person who outed her. Isn't that a crime? Isn'/t the right very big on crimes? Perjury in a private law suit is grounds for removal from office but commiting the crime of compromising national security is ok because the person subsquently poses for Vanity Fair? Stay on topic. What she does now is not the issue. That is not the crime. As to Halliburton. Are you really claiming that they will lose money on this deal? And once again even if true so what? Your arguement comes down to forgiving a thief because he had no money. If Halliburton made a bad deal that is their problem. We live in a free market economy. They took the risk. If they really lose money then that is their problem because if they make money they get to keep it. We call that capitalism. Their actions were on their face criminal and criminal of the worst type. War profiteering. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
In a message dated 12/24/2003 7:41:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But Gautam, that's not even the most ironic thing.The most ironic thing is that Doug somehow thought that the Halliburton incident was an example of the Right no policing its own - when in fact it was a Republican administration that uncovered and publicized the potential abuse. Correct if I am wrong but wasn't it the press who uncovered Halliburton's actions? And of course the government oversight is carried out by portions of the government that are not under direct political control. The government (in this case a republican government) did what it was obligated to do. By the way doesn't your arguement imply that Clinton deserves credit for is own impeachment since the special prosecutor was appointed during his administration? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
--- John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually medical records are somewhat private under the Consitution, as they are protected by the Constitution from unreasonable search and seizure. JDG Only if you think that search and seizure covers a doctor's office, and I can't bring to mind any rulings that it does. Search and seizure is usually thought of as covering your property and person, and your physician's office is neither of those. I'm not saying I think doctor patient confidentiality is a bad thing. Obviously I do not. I am, as I often do, pointing out the difference between This is a good idea and This is what the Constitution demands. They are not in any sense coterminous. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
--- John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Gautam, that's not even the most ironic thing. The most ironic thing is that Doug somehow thought that the Halliburton incident was an example of the Right no policing its own - when in fact it was a Republican administration that uncovered and publicized the potential abuse. JDG As, for that matter, was Enron. It has always struck me as ironic that the Bush Administration gets criticized for Enron. Most of the fraud and corruption took place under the Clinton Administration after all (and the same with Worldcom, Global Crossing, you name it). They were revealed under the Bush Administration. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: She posed after she was outed. Forget about her; what about the person who outed her. Isn't that a crime? Isn'/t the right very big on crimes? Perjury in a private law suit is grounds for removal from office but commiting the crime of compromising national security is ok because the person subsquently poses for Vanity Fair? Stay on topic. What she does now is not the issue. That is not the crime. Yes, but I _don't know_ who leaked it. There actually is no evidence that it was a crime at the moment. It's a crime if she had served overseas within the past 5 years (I think that's the time span) which she has not. The _CIA itself_ made no effort to cover her identity. That's all that we know. Everything else is the fevered wishes of the left. You will forgive me, by the way, if I laugh at the fact that people who during the Vietnam War and after happily cheered on lots of people who leaked American secrets of real importance care in the least about Valerie Plame. When I know who leaked it - in other words, when the investigation that is on going reveals the identity of the person - and if that person committed a crime, then I will happily call for the head of the person involved. But all of the evidence I have suggests that the major issue is that Joe Wilson is a gasbag who capitalized on this issue to build his own public profile, and that's about all that happened. As to Halliburton. Are you really claiming that they will lose money on this deal? And once again even if true so what? Your arguement comes down to forgiving a thief because he had no money. If Halliburton made a bad deal that is their problem. We live in a free market economy. They took the risk. If they really lose money then that is their problem because if they make money they get to keep it. We call that capitalism. Their actions were on their face criminal and criminal of the worst type. War profiteering. I would say, from what I know about the deal, that they are not profiteering. I don't know much about the deal - I automatically tune out any argument involving Halliburton, it's the black helicopters of the paranoid left. But as far as we know, they don't seem to have done anything wrong. I don't know much more than that - I just think that the people making accusations have no credibility. They are so clearly motivated by hatred for the Bush Administration that I _just don't care_ what they think. When I see people who look at Osama Bin Laden and George Bush and think that George Bush is their enemy, frankly I don't listen when they talk about Haliburton. If the Washington Post wants to say that something wrong happened here, I'll get upset. Since so far they're said that there is no story here, that's what I believe. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
Gautam wrote: If the Washington Post wants to say that something wrong happened here, I'll get upset. Since so far they're said that there is no story here, that's what I believe. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13397-2003Dec18.html This extraordinary internal audit suggests that Halliburton had been previously warned by its own auditors that it was overcharging for the fuel but apparently ignored these important warnings and continued to charge the federal government inflated prices, he wrote. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
William wrote: Maybe what Rush meant to say that there was no Constitutional right to privacy for law-abiding homosexuals, but there is a Constitutional right to privacy for conservative radio talk show host prescription drug addicts. Yea, and between this, the outing of the CIA agent and Bush waggling his finger at Halliburton we see how well the Right polices its own. -- Doug GSV Tut Tut ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 05:20 PM 12/23/2003 -0800 Doug Pensinger wrote: Yea, and between this, the outing of the CIA agent and Bush waggling his finger at Halliburton we see how well the Right polices its own. As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. JDG GSV Tut Tut Back at Ya ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:12 PM 12/23/2003 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. Is that always your answer? You're another? Deal with the issue at hand: Rush Limbaugh is demanding an accommodation for himself that he has expressly insisted, loudly and without compassion or mercy, not be accorded anyone else who has done similar things. This is false. I know of no instance in which Rush Limbaugh has not accorded anyone else the privacy of their medical records. More to the point, I know of no instance when Rush Limbaugh has loudly and without compassion or mercy said that individuals should not have the right to keep their medical records private. Only thing is, Rush is such an obnoxious pig, so loud and so absolutely certain of his own genius and infallibility and perfect rectitude, that you can't blame people for piling on when he brings all this shit down upon himself, I do blame you, however, for gratuitously swearing On-List. then acts like he did nothing wrong, and it's all someone else's fault, and then hides behind his lawyers - exactly the kind of behavior that he has always shrieked about when someone he doesn't like does. Why doesn't he practice what he's been preaching? This is false. Rush Limbaugh has regularly and repeatedly claimed responsibility for his addiction and his own actions. Again, it's simple human nature, but he has never been so understanding of anyone else's foibles. You'd hope being revealed as flawed would teach him a lesson; but I guess you'd be wrong. You deal with Rush, since he's one of your own (and you can have him). Leave the Left to the liberals. And of course, you have not at all responded to the allegation that the Left are at minimum no better than the Right than policing their own. Apparently you would rather swear and bash Rush Limbaugh than actually address my post. Kind of ironic for someone who began this post deal with the issue at hand. Thanks anyway. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. Is that always your answer? You're another? Often it is: it's what you do when you're out of real arguments, after all. Brad DeLong ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 08:21 PM 12/23/2003 -0800 Brad DeLong wrote: As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. Is that always your answer? You're another? Often it is: it's what you do when you're out of real arguments, after all. Oh I see, Brad, the side with the real arguments is the side which argued that the Right does not police their own very well on the basis of Rush Limbaugh arguing that State of Florida prosecutors did not properly follow the laws of Florida in asking for his private medical records to be unsealed. Uh yeah, you guys have real arguments all right. JDG - Who somehow has demonstrated his void of real arguments by failing to respond in depth to Doug P.'s hyperbolic blanket charges against all conservatives. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
- Original Message - From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite At 10:12 PM 12/23/2003 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. Is that always your answer? You're another? Deal with the issue at hand: Rush Limbaugh is demanding an accommodation for himself that he has expressly insisted, loudly and without compassion or mercy, not be accorded anyone else who has done similar things. This is false. I know of no instance in which Rush Limbaugh has not accorded anyone else the privacy of their medical records. I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. xponent Drift Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
At 10:52 PM 12/23/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Why does arguing that there is no constitution right to privacy to have abortions or homosexual relationships at all apply to the execution of the laws of Florida regarding medical records? Or more generally, what is so inconsistent about saying that there is no right to privacy to have an abortion or a homosexual relationship, but that there is a right to privacy that protects one from a government's unreasonable search of your medical records? It is not at all evident to me that there is a position on one necessitates a position on the other. JDG - Who has no arguments, nor any apologies. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
On Tuesday 2003-12-23 22:09, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 10:52 PM 12/23/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Why does arguing that there is no constitution right to privacy to have abortions or homosexual relationships at all apply to the execution of the laws of Florida regarding medical records? Or more generally, what is so inconsistent about saying that there is no right to privacy to have an abortion or a homosexual relationship, but that there is a right to privacy that protects one from a government's unreasonable search of your medical records? It is not at all evident to me that there is a position on one necessitates a position on the other. A position on one entails a position of the other if you defend yourself with an apeal to a *general* right to privacy. If you apeal to a medical right to privacy (or confidentiality) then it covers the Linbaugh case and the abortion case. (Separating the two will require arguing abortion is not under the purview of medicine--no problem for JDG, no doubt, but a postion that is far from obvious to me). However, a narrower medical right to privacy DOES obviously exclude protection for sexual practices. -- More importantly, who cares if Rush is a hypocrite? If he's such a good conservative why has he been married and divorced so many times? Rush is a marketeer. Attacking Rush for being Rush is a cheap ad homeniem argument. Rush is not important, his showmanship and message are--especially his showmanship. The way he packages his message and the good feeling he gives his listeners is more important than his message. The message tends to be pretty thin, but its an energizing rush for conservatives. JDG - Who has no arguments, nor any apologies. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
John wrote: As opposed, of course, to how well the Left policies it own. But how many on the left have made grandiose assertions that they have? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Why does arguing that there is no constitution right to privacy to have abortions or homosexual relationships at all apply to the execution of the laws of Florida regarding medical records? Or more generally, what is so inconsistent about saying that there is no right to privacy to have an abortion or a homosexual relationship, but that there is a right to privacy that protects one from a government's unreasonable search of your medical records? jaw dropping How can you *possibly* equate sexual activity between consenting adults to abortion? Especially since homosexual sex has *no* chance of leading to abortion? While I support the right-to-choose as a necessity, I have posted that in my version of an ideal world, all sexually active adults (all teens would wait until legal age) would use 100%-effective types of birth control, all sex would be consensual, and there would be little need for abortion except in case of the mother's life being uncorrectably endangered (in my ideal world, birth defects would be identified and corrected prenatally, and there wouldn't be any rape either). Of course, my ideal world *has* never and *will* never exist, although we might come close in some respects. What happens between consenting adults in their own homes is certainly not the government's business. I personally find the practice of wife/husband swapping disgusting, but have no interest in any law against it - although 'the law' might conceivably become involved if frex there is a paternity question. :P *Graphic terms warning this paragraph* And abortion is a medical procedure, so it falls under the medical records umbrella. I personally think that parts of medical records, such as injuries sustained in a physical assault or caused accident, do need to be allowable in court; however, intimate detailed accounts such as Miss Brown being sodomized by a beer bottle, or Mr. Smith having his genitals shredded by a viciously swung chainsaw, should not be made public (seal the records for 50-100 years? Forever?). As I have previously posted, medical personnel have *already* deliberately omitted recording certain things, that have no _current_ relevance, in the medical record because insurance companies have used them to deny coverage, and/or employers have gained access to sensitive information and used it against an employee. [Examples of things that might be omitted: trying pot once or twice in youth (but regular use of any illicit drug or IV drug use can have future consequences, so those must be written); clinical depression, as after the death of a child, that is diagnosed in retrospect; remote history of being abused as a child, if therapy has already been completed in the past. I have heard of each of these examples causing significant current problems for a person, even though the situations were resolved in the remote past.] Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
John wrote: JDG - Who somehow has demonstrated his void of real arguments by failing to respond in depth to Doug P.'s hyperbolic blanket charges against all conservatives. I know you don't always follow the list closely these days, so I'll be less cryptic. Gautam has written at length in the past about how the right polices it's own and the left does not. Recent events leave me well beyond skeptical, precipitating my comment. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
