Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
I just want to clarify some things here. JEE spec (JEE technologies) is something that is defined. These are technologiest that are voted on and documented by Sun (and memebers of the community). Some of this is supported by the Java Runtime itself (language constructs like Annotations, generics, Enums) others are supported by libraries. Sun releases reference implementations of most specs but others can, and do, as well. Java technologies include things like JSF, JSP, JPA and EJB. All of these have JSR[s] attached to them. On the other hand Spring, Struts, Tapestry are just Java frameworks. Hibernate is a little different b/c JPA was mostly based off hibernate and hibernate has a third party implementation of the JPA spec. For a list of Java technologies check out: http://java.sun.com/javaee/technologies/ This is all way off in left field at this point though lol. Adam ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313396 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:00 PM, denstar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I guess my question to you would be, what is a java app to you? How does JSP, Tapestry, Faces, Groovy, etc. fit into your picture there? JSP and Faces are both part of the Java spec so its java (JSF 2.0 I suppose). Tapestry is a framework and does not really do code generation as compared to something like CFML. You'll note that I suggested selling CFML as a Java framework earlier. Groovy is a completely different story and much closer to CFML except that it needs no runtime nor the servlet container to work. It really does compile down to bytecode and run. CFML on the other hand compiles down to bytecode but can not exist or function on its own. All CFML code requires a CFML runtime engine to actually provide functionality (unless Railo is doing something different I have not looked at 3.x extensively I figure I'll just wate for the source). Very general! Which is why, if you care about The Source, you're going to be asking a lot more than is it Java, right? I bet there are JSP, etc., powered apps that tout themselves as being JEE, neh? Although it's all sorta the same, there's a world of difference, from a can I jump into this thing's source? perspective. Well they are JEE apps if they are JSP, it is part of the spec. I make it clear at the outset that we're using a whole slew of various technologies, and that it's all open source, so I provide the code, as well, but I'm not selling code, I'm providing a service. Right and that to me makes perfect sense! I get your point though, and I would not be touting my CF-based JEE app as having pure Java sources. I don't think that's exactly what we were talking about tho, neh? :-) Sort of it. The original comment was give them a war and say it is a JEE app, to which I think there are implications there to most people. The implication (right or wrong) being JEE == Java [source]. Again if it is a product and thats that, no extnetion points, then yeah who cares. But if there is any extensibility or source code investment calling it a JEE app is sort of underhanded due to my stance on what that implies. To your earlier question yes I'd like to think a company would be smart enough ti interigate further when purchasing an app + source. Ultimately it's the company that has to support the source so they should damn well be investigating it further that sort of where my original question of how much repeat business do you get comes from. If a company finds they are given CFML and not the standard JEE app (which is rapidly degrading away as a standard) would they come back? Adam ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313321 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Adam Haskell wrote: On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 7:00 PM, denstar wrote: Well, I guess my question to you would be, what is a java app to you? How does JSP, Tapestry, Faces, Groovy, etc. fit into your picture there? JSP and Faces are both part of the Java spec so its java (JSF 2.0 I suppose). Tapestry is a framework and does not really do code generation as compared to something like CFML. You'll note that I suggested selling CFML as a Java framework earlier. Groovy is a completely different story and much closer to CFML except that it needs no runtime nor the servlet container to work. It really does compile down to bytecode and run. CFML on the other hand compiles down to bytecode but can not exist or function on its own. All CFML code requires a CFML runtime engine to actually provide functionality (unless Railo is doing something different I have not looked at 3.x extensively I figure I'll just wate for the source). Groovy, or even pure Java, don't equal JEE, as such. See, I think JEE doesn't really mean much. More marketing speak than anything. Seam is a JEE 5 framework, and it fits the spec test, along the lines of Tapestry, but from a support/coding perspective, there is a difference between Seam and Tapestry. I bet there are JSP, etc., powered apps that tout themselves as being JEE, neh? Although it's all sorta the same, there's a world of difference, from a can I jump into this thing's source? perspective. Well they are JEE apps if they are JSP, it is part of the spec. I don't think saying something is JEE compatible or whatever really says much, to a Source-erer. Struts and JSF, for example. Both could fit your definition of a JEE app, which still leaves you not knowing some vital information, from a coding perspective. What about using Spring and Hibernate, which might be seen as violating the ee specs? I get your point though, and I would not be touting my CF-based JEE app as having pure Java sources. I don't think that's exactly what we were talking about tho, neh? :-) Sort of it. The original comment was give them a war and say it is a JEE app, to which I think there are implications there to most people. The implication (right or wrong) being JEE == Java [source]. I wouldn't infer very much, personally, from someone saying their app met the JEE specs, other than the idea that maybe I could get the thing to run in a JEE container of some sort. There are EE apps that don't exactly run in any JEE compliant container, neh? :-) And still, if you're coming from a use the source perspective, there are worlds and worlds of java source that, while all 100% pure java, would still require an investment in time to be modify. Sometimes significant amounts of time. Think of a CF dev with no experience with X framework. Sure, it's all pure CF, but, from a practical perspective, it's quite different. You couldn't toss a CFer with no experience at a framework driven app and expect them to instantly be able to grasp what's going on. Am I being misleading by touting my application as a ColdFusion application, in those instances? I think you'd say no, but you'd probably want to know, if you're buying the source to extend and maintain yourself, right? JEE is a spec, it's not actually saying much about source code, per se. More like requirements to be met, or some such, right? If you were at all concerned with being able to extend or customize some EE app yourself, you would want to know more than is it JEE?, which we've covered. If a company finds they are given CFML and not the standard JEE app (which is rapidly degrading away as a standard) would they come back? Heh, you nailed it right there. What does JEE *really* mean? I posit that unless they're paying for the source itself, it's a moot point. If they're paying for a solution, period, and you provide that solution, then it's gravy, as far as I can tell. And that seems to be the way it works, more than the way you posit, where they are concerned about the underlying technology driving the solution. Most people just want something that will do what they need it to do, and that's what they pay you for. All that said, I'm a source monger myself, and pay attention to that long tail, so I always investigate *wince* solutions *wince* before we buy them (when I know we're buying them). Not that it seems to make much of a difference, as most people just care about the short term (if that, even), apparently. Freaking pointy heads. :-) -- Hearing the word is the devout receiving of the will of God. William Ames ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313355 Subscription:
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Adam Haskell wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. Yes and no. I really am curious if you folks would deal with you giving them a JEE app* that they do not have resources to maintain. Most companies that buy something elsewhere have no interest in maintaining it themselves. It has it's positive and negatives, we actually prefer to just deploy individual code into a WAR but that has more to do with Websphere sucking than anything :) Would you still prefer that if hosting was outsourced somewhere and all you were allowed to do was hand them the app and instructions? Agreed but like I said earlier selling something as JEE app has some general implications I think. Only if the contract specifies they get the source. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313270 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Jochem van Dieten [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Adam Haskell wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. Yes and no. I really am curious if you folks would deal with you giving them a JEE app* that they do not have resources to maintain. Most companies that buy something elsewhere have no interest in maintaining it themselves. This is a different world than I live in, not saying it doesn't exist just new to me. It has it's positive and negatives, we actually prefer to just deploy individual code into a WAR but that has more to do with Websphere sucking than anything :) Would you still prefer that if hosting was outsourced somewhere and all you were allowed to do was hand them the app and instructions? This is how we do it right now, we just have our own deployment procedure for a zip file. Everything is self contained, thanks to mappings in cf8. Understand that some of our stuff is just deployed as a war but others are not. As an example we have a war for each division of the company some of these contain 900+ individual applications pulling that all out of source control and [re]publishing the war each time 1 of 900 projects is changed is a big pain, conversely thanks to WebSphere we could never deploy even a handful of apps as independent wars thanks to the memory that would be required (we have 17 divisions the smallest division has ~300 applications). Which is where the positive and negatives comment comes from :) Agreed but like I said earlier selling something as JEE app has some general implications I think. Only if the contract specifies they get the source. Yep understood, we are sort of source mongers here so speaking that's come to be expected for me. Adam ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313272 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Adam Haskell wrote: On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 1:20 AM, denstar wrote: Are you being sarcastic? I'm not quite sure. Yes and no. I really am curious if you folks would deal with you giving them a JEE app* that they do not have resources to maintain. Now if its a turnkey solution sure I guess I see this working but in my world we never take something without getting the source code and needing customizations, so getting a JEE app that is not written in Java wouldn't work so well, if we didn't have a large CFML group at least ;) * Yes it is truly a JEE app no doubt there but there is an implication there that it is Java so unless it is clear that it is not I see that as underhanded. Well, I guess my question to you would be, what is a java app to you? How does JSP, Tapestry, Faces, Groovy, etc. fit into your picture there? It's not Java, literally, (or maybe it is, actually ;]), so I wouldn't sell it as having Java source files, but I could see selling it as a java application (or java-based). At least, Dilbert-style: the pointy heads don't even know what Java is, but they've heard of it, at least. Agreed but like I said earlier selling something as JEE app has some general implications I think. Very general! Which is why, if you care about The Source, you're going to be asking a lot more than is it Java, right? I bet there are JSP, etc., powered apps that tout themselves as being JEE, neh? Although it's all sorta the same, there's a world of difference, from a can I jump into this thing's source? perspective. Heck, for that matter, you could push something as a CF app, but for someone to work on the code itself, they'd need to know Reactor, and ModelGlue, FarCry, etc., etc.. :-) I know it's a different business model, to sell service vs. property, but I'm really *really* liking it. I make it clear at the outset that we're using a whole slew of various technologies, and that it's all open source, so I provide the code, as well, but I'm not selling code, I'm providing a service. You won't get rich as fast as you would by selling license, but man, I just feel good about it. I'm not really in this for the money, obviously, or I'd have quite my .edu day job long ago. Bah. Some people are gunning for me (if only through incompetence (but it's not)), and it's sanctioned, so I'll probably be forced to start making real money soon, but, fsck it, for now at least. Whoops. Where was I? Oh yeah: Java == , just like CF == . I get your point though, and I would not be touting my CF-based JEE app as having pure Java sources. I don't think that's exactly what we were talking about tho, neh? :-) Yes, it's a business model that works. So far, at least. (Limited testing on my end, but I believe the J-Man, who's been doing this a while.;]) Folks seem to be dealing just fine! WOOHOO! -- What is the meaning of the togetherness of the perceiving mind, in that peculiar modification of perceiving which makes it perceive not a star but a tree, and the tree itself, is a problem for philosophy. Samuel Alexander ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313304 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Adam Haskell wrote: Let me know how much repeat business you get with that tactic please. We don't sell products, we sell services. One of those services is help with a conversion from a deployment based on moving .cfml files to a deployment based on WAR/EAR files. Customers want that for various reasons such as a better separation between developers and sysadmins, outsourcing different parts of the process to different parties with a well defined separation of responsibilities etc. And some customers want that exactly because they want to be able to claim their product is standard J2EE with some commercial libraries included. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313200 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 1:20 AM, denstar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 7:22 AM, Adam Haskell wrote: Let me know how much repeat business you get with that tactic please. Are you being sarcastic? I'm not quite sure. Yes and no. I really am curious if you folks would deal with you giving them a JEE app* that they do not have resources to maintain. Now if its a turnkey solution sure I guess I see this working but in my world we never take something without getting the source code and needing customizations, so getting a JEE app that is not written in Java wouldn't work so well, if we didn't have a large CFML group at least ;) * Yes it is truly a JEE app no doubt there but there is an implication there that it is Java so unless it is clear that it is not I see that as underhanded. Deploying applications as WARs or EARs seems pretty slick. Covers a lot of problems with application deployment, neh? I'm just getting into it, and clustering, but I could easily see distributing one's application as a zip file, basically. It has it's positive and negatives, we actually prefer to just deploy individual code into a WAR but that has more to do with Websphere sucking than anything :) I see people paying me money for these applications. And leveraging Java is a pretty powerful feature. From the other end, if you're doing anything cool, you'd have an API anyways. Maybe use SOAP or, well, whatever, really. Not quite a java API though, I guess. It's not Java, literally, (or maybe it is, actually ;]), so I wouldn't sell it as having Java source files, but I could see selling it as a java application (or java-based). At least, Dilbert-style: the pointy heads don't even know what Java is, but they've heard of it, at least. Agreed but like I said earlier selling something as JEE app has some general implications I think. Probably depends on your business model, and if the client owns the source code, and all that stuff, as to how successful you'd be at doing things this way, too. You'd be silly to sell CF source as Java source, of course, of course. If that's what you were getting at. Or not being clear about it... I think I've made this point a couple times now though so I'll stop banging my drum ;) Adam ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313251 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Jochem van Dieten wrote: ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 7:22 AM, Adam Haskell wrote: Let me know how much repeat business you get with that tactic please. Are you being sarcastic? I'm not quite sure. Deploying applications as WARs or EARs seems pretty slick. Covers a lot of problems with application deployment, neh? I'm just getting into it, and clustering, but I could easily see distributing one's application as a zip file, basically. I see people paying me money for these applications. And leveraging Java is a pretty powerful feature. From the other end, if you're doing anything cool, you'd have an API anyways. Maybe use SOAP or, well, whatever, really. Not quite a java API though, I guess. It's not Java, literally, (or maybe it is, actually ;]), so I wouldn't sell it as having Java source files, but I could see selling it as a java application (or java-based). At least, Dilbert-style: the pointy heads don't even know what Java is, but they've heard of it, at least. Probably depends on your business model, and if the client owns the source code, and all that stuff, as to how successful you'd be at doing things this way, too. You'd be silly to sell CF source as Java source, of course, of course. If that's what you were getting at. If you were honestly being curious, I can verify that you can sell applications (as WAR files, or whatever), and people will pay for them, repeatedly. It might be good to note that Railo will, before too long, come with JBoss, right about... ---here Heh. I love it. Guess my virtual machine is through copying, along with my nodes, so time to get back to the old grind-stone. :den -- Now... to cluster MySQL or Postgres... hmmm... ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313184 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Dakota Burns wrote: Thanks all for the followup! I'm sorry, but it was My Bad on the subject line. I wasn't trying to suggest that a CF Developer could present him or herself as a Java developer, but rather present the idea of a CF Developer persuading a company to use ColdFusion versus Java for their web apps. ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313104 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Just remember to include the cost of the CF license in your quote. mxAjax / CFAjax docs and other useful articles: http://www.bifrost.com.au/blog/ 2008/9/26 Jochem van Dieten [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dakota Burns wrote: Thanks all for the followup! I'm sorry, but it was My Bad on the subject line. I wasn't trying to suggest that a CF Developer could present him or herself as a Java developer, but rather present the idea of a CF Developer persuading a company to use ColdFusion versus Java for their web apps. ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313108 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Let me know how much repeat business you get with that tactic please. Adam On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:31 AM, Jochem van Dieten [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Dakota Burns wrote: Thanks all for the followup! I'm sorry, but it was My Bad on the subject line. I wasn't trying to suggest that a CF Developer could present him or herself as a Java developer, but rather present the idea of a CF Developer persuading a company to use ColdFusion versus Java for their web apps. ColdFusion is compiled to Java. Hand the code to the company in an EAR or WAR and they won't ever know you used ColdFusion. Jochem ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313109 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
I'm currently looking to make a career change, and I frequently see positions asking for Java Consultants. For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? Thanks, Dakota ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:313066 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
If you don't program in java a lot then I don't see how you could successfully call yourself a java consultant. The two languages and environments are nothing alike when things start to get interesting, and is someone needs a consultant then things are probably already interesting. Thanks Mark -Original Message- From: Dakota Burns [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:40 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant? I'm currently looking to make a career change, and I frequently see positions asking for Java Consultants. For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? Thanks, Dakota ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:313068 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? If you can competently write programs in Java, you are a Java developer. CF programs are not written in Java. If anyone here can answer your question in the affirmative, the employer in question does not understand what Java development is. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:313083 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Wow ... thanks for the enlightenment Dave. I know CF programs aren't written in Java, but they can be run on J2EE servers, where other previously programmed Java/JSP apps may be running. Perhaps a better question would have been to ask whether any of you CF Pros have persuaded someone looking to build their new web app with JSP on a J2EE server ... to instead use ColdFusion ... either as a deployable container ala Railo, or Adobe CF8 Enterprise. ~ Dakota On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? If you can competently write programs in Java, you are a Java developer. CF programs are not written in Java. If anyone here can answer your question in the affirmative, the employer in question does not understand what Java development is. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:313084 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
The person who is deciding on the platform will usually have their own biases. It's very difficult to persuade people to go away from their own favorite platform, but it is possible if you can make a case based on saving a lot of money on development costs, while also mitigating the perceived negatives of ColdFusion. -- Josh - Original Message - From: Dakota Burns [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant? Wow ... thanks for the enlightenment Dave. I know CF programs aren't written in Java, but they can be run on J2EE servers, where other previously programmed Java/JSP apps may be running. Perhaps a better question would have been to ask whether any of you CF Pros have persuaded someone looking to build their new web app with JSP on a J2EE server ... to instead use ColdFusion ... either as a deployable container ala Railo, or Adobe CF8 Enterprise. ~ Dakota On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? If you can competently write programs in Java, you are a Java developer. CF programs are not written in Java. If anyone here can answer your question in the affirmative, the employer in question does not understand what Java development is. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:313086 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
I'm now in the position that I'm currently a Java programmer (JSP's, Servlets, EJB's, JMS, etc) and need to learn CF as well. I used to program Fortran many years ago, then did some C/C++ and then did a lot of PL/SQL in Oracle. Moving from that background to Java was not difficult, but to do the OO (Object orientation) thinking of programming is the difference between a normal and an excellent Java programmer. You can still write procedural code in Java which will work, but to really make Java powerfull and work for you, you need to get that OO hat on. So I would say it is not very difficult to get to know the JAva language and get to a point where you can help yourself. Getting good is going to take a lot of reading/programming and practice though. I found that the younger generation that wasn't exposed to procedural languages adapts to the OO way of thinking very quickly. On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Dakota Burns [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Wow ... thanks for the enlightenment Dave. I know CF programs aren't written in Java, but they can be run on J2EE servers, where other previously programmed Java/JSP apps may be running. Perhaps a better question would have been to ask whether any of you CF Pros have persuaded someone looking to build their new web app with JSP on a J2EE server ... to instead use ColdFusion ... either as a deployable container ala Railo, or Adobe CF8 Enterprise. ~ Dakota On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? If you can competently write programs in Java, you are a Java developer. CF programs are not written in Java. If anyone here can answer your question in the affirmative, the employer in question does not understand what Java development is. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313088 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
New Atlanta has made quite a good living migrating folks from legacy coldfusion to .Net or JEE. The reality is they come into companies still running ColdFusion 5 or older and move them onto New Atlanta's licenced CFML engines (BlueDragon) for the appropriate platform be it .Net or JEE. Now honestly I doubt there are enough large companies out there interested in it so I would say its not the best career move but it is feasible to fit into that space and use OpenBD or Railo. If I were a Java shop I would be leary of CFML as it is a different language (regardless of the easy of picking it up). You might be better served selling your skills as a java presentation layer consultant, which really is where CFML can fit very nicely in a JEE architecture, its a crap ton better than other frameworks in that space in my opinion (JSP, JSF, Tapestry). Adam On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Dakota Burns [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Wow ... thanks for the enlightenment Dave. I know CF programs aren't written in Java, but they can be run on J2EE servers, where other previously programmed Java/JSP apps may be running. Perhaps a better question would have been to ask whether any of you CF Pros have persuaded someone looking to build their new web app with JSP on a J2EE server ... to instead use ColdFusion ... either as a deployable container ala Railo, or Adobe CF8 Enterprise. ~ Dakota On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you CF developers that deploy your apps to J2EE Servers (or servlet containers, as is the case with Tomcat), have you been successful in situations where the employer wanted a Java Developer, and after talking to you with your CF skillset, felt comfortable they were serving their need for a Java Developer? If you can competently write programs in Java, you are a Java developer. CF programs are not written in Java. If anyone here can answer your question in the affirmative, the employer in question does not understand what Java development is. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313089 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Wow ... thanks for the enlightenment Dave. I know CF programs aren't written in Java, but they can be run on J2EE servers, where other previously programmed Java/JSP apps may be running. That doesn't make you a Java developer. If I were to advertise myself as a Java developer based solely on my CF experience, that would be fraudulent. Perhaps a better question would have been to ask whether any of you CF Pros have persuaded someone looking to build their new web app with JSP on a J2EE server ... to instead use ColdFusion ... either as a deployable container ala Railo, or Adobe CF8 Enterprise. Sure. CF makes a great replacement for JSP and all the templating libraries out there (Velocity, etc.) But if you're going to use CF as just the presentation tier (the normal role of JSP) you'd have to know how to write servlets and beans in Java. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313100 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: ColdFusion Consultant as a Java Consultant?
Thanks all for the followup! I'm sorry, but it was My Bad on the subject line. I wasn't trying to suggest that a CF Developer could present him or herself as a Java developer, but rather present the idea of a CF Developer persuading a company to use ColdFusion versus Java for their web apps. (Will be more careful in wording my subject lines in the future.) Josh and Adam responded spot on with what I was inquiring about. My reason for the whole thread stems from recent search of the job marketing in the midwest USA. I've made a good career programming web apps with ColdFusion since version 3 by Allaire. ColdFusion and the community that surrounds it is quite awesome indeed! Thanks again! Dakota Adam and Josh summed it up perfectly On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow ... thanks for the enlightenment Dave. I know CF programs aren't written in Java, but they can be run on J2EE servers, where other previously programmed Java/JSP apps may be running. That doesn't make you a Java developer. If I were to advertise myself as a Java developer based solely on my CF experience, that would be fraudulent. Perhaps a better question would have been to ask whether any of you CF Pros have persuaded someone looking to build their new web app with JSP on a J2EE server ... to instead use ColdFusion ... either as a deployable container ala Railo, or Adobe CF8 Enterprise. Sure. CF makes a great replacement for JSP and all the templating libraries out there (Velocity, etc.) But if you're going to use CF as just the presentation tier (the normal role of JSP) you'd have to know how to write servlets and beans in Java. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:313101 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
