RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
That said, It's a new product so I won't moan and groan about it until non-IT folks start destroying sites just like they have always done with FrontPage ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. You've hit the nail on the head with the FrontPage comparison. Contribute even looks somewhat like FrontPage. The advantage appears to be that it won't screw the code. (Of course, I can't get it to work with one of our ftp servers for a site.) -Kevin ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
On Monday, Nov 11, 2002, at 11:20 US/Pacific, Park, Simon wrote: I'm looking through the online documentation of Contribute because it may be a solution for a particular client of ours. One specific question that I haven't seen answered is whether there is built-in publishing from a staging or development server to a production server, particularly through a firewall. Perhaps someone from Macromedia or who has seen the demonstration can answer this. Thanks. Contribute is intended to allow non-technical users to edit websites directly. When we canvassed users about workflow, most of them either didn't use any or had something very informal. Contribute follows that majority model: you can either publish directly back to the website or you can email a draft for review (built-in to Contribute). Publishing from a development / staging server to the production server is effectively out of scope for Contribute. If you have such an environment, you would presumably have a managed process for pushing web content out to production. In such a scenario, you would have Contribute users edit / publish directly to the development (or staging) web server and then use your existing process to publish to production. Sean A Corfield -- Director, Architecture Web Technology Group -- Macromedia, Inc. tel: (415) 252-2287 -- cell: (415) 717-8473 aim: seancorfield -- http://www.macromedia.com An Architect's View -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ Introducing Macromedia Contribute. Web publishing for everyone. Learn more at http://www.macromedia.com/contribute ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Unless i am missing something here, Contribute is meant to work along the lines of FrontPage correct? A user edits a page is some kind of WYSIWYG editor and then is able to publish the page to the server. Thus, this really is really meant for sites where content is static? In which case is this really a very valuable business app? I know that VERY few of are websites are completely static. I can see where this would be great for small businesses and information-centric websites, but as true 'content management' why would you even be interested in this software? -chris.alvarado [ application developer ] 4 Guys Interactive, Inc. http://www.4guys.com We create websites that make you a hero. -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:sean;corfield.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation On Monday, Nov 11, 2002, at 11:20 US/Pacific, Park, Simon wrote: I'm looking through the online documentation of Contribute because it may be a solution for a particular client of ours. One specific question that I haven't seen answered is whether there is built-in publishing from a staging or development server to a production server, particularly through a firewall. Perhaps someone from Macromedia or who has seen the demonstration can answer this. Thanks. Contribute is intended to allow non-technical users to edit websites directly. When we canvassed users about workflow, most of them either didn't use any or had something very informal. Contribute follows that majority model: you can either publish directly back to the website or you can email a draft for review (built-in to Contribute). Publishing from a development / staging server to the production server is effectively out of scope for Contribute. If you have such an environment, you would presumably have a managed process for pushing web content out to production. In such a scenario, you would have Contribute users edit / publish directly to the development (or staging) web server and then use your existing process to publish to production. Sean A Corfield -- Director, Architecture Web Technology Group -- Macromedia, Inc. tel: (415) 252-2287 -- cell: (415) 717-8473 aim: seancorfield -- http://www.macromedia.com An Architect's View -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ Introducing Macromedia Contribute. Web publishing for everyone. Learn more at http://www.macromedia.com/contribute ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
On Tuesday, Nov 12, 2002, at 14:21 US/Pacific, Chris Alvarado wrote: A user edits a page is some kind of WYSIWYG editor and then is able to publish the page to the server. Thus, this really is really meant for sites where content is static? Correct. In which case is this really a very valuable business app? I know that VERY few of are websites are completely static. Millions of sites are still entirely static HTML. Even most 'dynamic' sites are mostly static text with a few dynamic doo-hickies on some pages. Sean A Corfield -- Director, Architecture Web Technology Group -- Macromedia, Inc. tel: (415) 252-2287 -- cell: (415) 717-8473 aim: seancorfield -- http://www.macromedia.com An Architect's View -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ Introducing Macromedia Contribute. Web publishing for everyone. Learn more at http://www.macromedia.com/contribute ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
doo-hickies, that's funny. :) -Original Message- From: Sean A Corfield [mailto:sean;corfield.org] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation On Tuesday, Nov 12, 2002, at 14:21 US/Pacific, Chris Alvarado wrote: A user edits a page is some kind of WYSIWYG editor and then is able to publish the page to the server. Thus, this really is really meant for sites where content is static? Correct. In which case is this really a very valuable business app? I know that VERY few of are websites are completely static. Millions of sites are still entirely static HTML. Even most 'dynamic' sites are mostly static text with a few dynamic doo-hickies on some pages. Sean A Corfield -- Director, Architecture Web Technology Group -- Macromedia, Inc. tel: (415) 252-2287 -- cell: (415) 717-8473 aim: seancorfield -- http://www.macromedia.com An Architect's View -- http://www.corfield.org/blog/ Introducing Macromedia Contribute. Web publishing for everyone. Learn more at http://www.macromedia.com/contribute ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Except that Contribute is based on DreamWeaver's code base. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Robert Occhialini [mailto:bump;oddpost.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:43 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Contribute and Studio Observation At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bump.net ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Sure, sure... CF Studio 5 was the last version. HomeSite+ is not really a new version of Studio. Further, I wouldn't expect to see a HomeSite++ bundled with the next version of DreamWeaver. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (REC) [mailto:Neil.Robertson- [EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation Homesite has not been done away with, neither has Studio..they have been rebranded Homesite +. -Original Message- From: Robert Occhialini [mailto:bump;oddpost.com] Sent: 11 November 2002 16:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: Contribute and Studio Observation At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bump.net ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Yeah... and you can only buy it WITH Dreamweaver. Let's skip the semantics... the product has been axed. Adam Wayne Lehman Web Systems Developer Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Distance Education Division -Original Message- From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (REC) [mailto:Neil.Robertson-Ravo;csd.reedexpo.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:48 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation Homesite has not been done away with, neither has Studio..they have been rebranded Homesite +. -Original Message- From: Robert Occhialini [mailto:bump;oddpost.com] Sent: 11 November 2002 16:43 To: CF-Talk Subject: Contribute and Studio Observation At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bump.net ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
No, you are not the only one irked. The short life of development applications can only be considered as driven by the desire for revenue on the part of MM. I think this is going to come back and bite them, big time! = Douglas White group Manager mailto:doug;samcfug.org http://www.samcfug.org = - Original Message - From: Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:42 AM Subject: Contribute and Studio Observation | At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. | | Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: | | | We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. | | I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. | | ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio .. It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less-technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Robert, at least Macromedia is consistently inconsistent. - Original Message - From: Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:42 AM Subject: Contribute and Studio Observation At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bump.net ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Isaac, you hit it right on the nose. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:info;turnkey.to] You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I'm with ya on this one Paul. People take their cars to the quick lube and think they are changing the oil when in reality, they've never seen the underside of their oil pan. Most non-technical people think web work is easy enough as it is because of WYSIWYG editors (mainly Frontpage), and expect your turnarounds to be as quick as them writing a document in Word. I see this product being used for good and evil. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. Just my $0.02. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:19:57 -0500 At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio .. It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less- technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
well if folks are using flat sites, the need for the dreamweaver/gui markup crowd is pretty minimal... unless, the volume of work is so great.. this package can help alleviate that... and as long as they have a good team communications and someone on board from marketing/management who knows about consistency well the HTML markup god isn't really then needed... Then again, if people would invest in a dynamic CF driven site, they would already be doing most of this stuff... and this would be old news.. Paris Lundis Founder Areaindex, L.L.C. http://www.areaindex.com http://www.pubcrawler.com 412-292-3135 [finding the future in the past, passing the future in the present] [connecting people, places and things] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Hastings) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:46:45 +0700 Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
The Point of Contribute is to not deprecate the programmer/designer. The point is to allow PHBs to quickly edit things like company contact information or news of the day or what's for lunch, primarily simple, doc-like sections of the website. How many of us have sat there twiddling our thumbs waiting for a PHB to email us the text for something as simple as company description... Or, as simple as item description. Me? I'd rather not have to burn 800 hours hitting refresh on my mail client while I wait for a paragraph of text to be added by some middle manager who had to hack it out through a legal department. Jesse Noller Macromedia Server Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Robert Polickoski [mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. Just my $0.02. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:19:57 -0500 At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio .. It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less- technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Here we have nearly the opposite problem. Because the secretaries all used to do the memos and such, now they are being made responsible for the department's web site. These are extremely overworked, non-technical people being put in charge of maintaining a site! A product like Contribute has the potential to allow the IS/IT/Web people to design a site structure with templates and all, and the secretary can take the MS Word press release or whatever and now put it in the site instead of bugging us to do it. And they can do so without trying to learn Dreamweaver which is overkill, or use FrontPage which kills the templates. Is Contribute better than a CMS? Not from what I can tell, but in many cases most CMS products out there are either too small for a big organization or too large and expensive and complicated for a big distributed organization (government/education) to agree upon. Contribute potentially fits that niche. I'm playing with it right now to see if it will work for us or not. -Kevin Graeme ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Isaac, I wasn't attempting to imply that Contribute was intended as a replacement for Studio. The point I was attempting to make is that they announced that the Studio line was being end of lifed with the rationale being that they didn't want to have more than one Web editing/design tool to maintain. They then released another tool in that same area, albeit for a different audience. I was trying to point out that these two things are at odds with each other. I'd tack a bitter statement along the lines of Well we know where people who develop for Macromedia's server platform stand now. because I think that this is the message I get from this whole thing. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my previous mail. Robert Occhialini http://www.bump.net -Original Message- I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio . It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less-technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I don't think that should be a concern. Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing. So unless you make a living cutting and pasting text changes a client sends you, I wouldn't be too worried. The site, the code, and the initial content creation are all done by you, the developer/designer. Contribute comes into play when you start getting client phone calls (each call lasting 10 minutes at least) asking you to make a few text changes, or to use the new paragraph they're about to send you, or to hypothesize what text might be better that what is currently there. I do this too often, and it is *not* worth my time, and I'm sure I am losing money as a result. You could just have them buy Contribute and make the text changes they want. That keeps you coding (and happy) and the client happy. If you're worried about the fact that the client will no longer call you to change foxtrot to fox trot, you probably have way too much time on your hands, and I can only strongly suggest that you could probably make better use of creatively inclined mind. Besides, from my experience, even the tiniest modification takes 15 minutes (between the phone call, the popping open the site, locating the page, making the edit, e-mailing the client about the change, winding down). If I charge $125/hour, I can justify charging over $30 for fox trot to myself, but does that really make sense? I don't think so. Better to open up the content to the client, and focus on design and development. Plus, I'd bet that the fact that the client can edit the pages will excite him, and keep him occupied with the site, and keep them coming back to you for additions/modifications/answers. Personally, I welcome Macromedia Contribute with open arms. Go MM! -D ### David Notik Digital202, LLC Imagination gone digital. Web: www.digital202.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: (206) 575-1717 Mobile: (206) 351-3948 ### -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? 3 minutes and 27 seconds. Give or take a year dependant on your geographical location. :P I'll agree that I think, especially in companies run by non-technical business beauracrats who detest any form of monetary expenditure, especially salaries for people who perform jobs they don't understand. ( This could be a lot of companies. ) That the move to self-serve content editing ( whether you call it cms or not ) could not too surprisingly end in the downsizing of vital IT staff. I suspect that whether it's Contribute or something else, this will be a battle that many of us will be forced to fight in the current downtrodden economy as well as in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if my own Tapestry cms winds up in that same role of potentially eliminating jobs. I don't like the idea that my work would contribute to people losing jobs, but it's a sad fact of the IT industry ( or rather technology in general ) that we largely make our livings by putting others out of theirs. That's been the whole point of factory / office automation from the start: businesses save money (in the long run) by automating tasks they previously paid wages / salary to have done. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
I don't think it will replace the admin section that I build into my web sites which allow the user to do exactly the same. = Douglas White group Manager mailto:doug;samcfug.org http://www.samcfug.org = - Original Message - From: Ryan Kime [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation | I'm with ya on this one Paul. | | People take their cars to the quick lube and think they are changing the | oil when in reality, they've never seen the underside of their oil pan. Most | non-technical people think web work is easy enough as it is because of | WYSIWYG editors (mainly Frontpage), and expect your turnarounds to be as | quick as them writing a document in Word. | | I see this product being used for good and evil. | | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] | Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:47 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation | | | wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using | either | CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your | office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or | Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. | | and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the | studio/dw folks defenestrate them? | | | ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. I actually agree with this sentiment. I continue to produce tools that are more and more for the average joe, not because I necessarily think the end result is going to be a good thing, but because I see it as the trend that's making money ( and will make money in the future ) and therefore keeping food on my table. Were it not for the fact that I see this as the only way for me to really survive, my software / work would probably be significantly different. Just like the professional secretary, I think a lot of other office jobs will go away -- with data-warehousing becoming practical the next in line are file-clerks -- that is assuming they're not all but extinct already. For that matter, this past year or so I finished my first novel. I decided to web publish it because I don't think it will get published otherwise. ( http://www.turnkey.to/ike/613.htm ) I expect 0 out of 6,000,000,000 people on this planet to finish it cover to cover. Why? Largely because reading is a dying art. I've been thinking recently about resorting to cartooning to get my points across, in spite of the fact that I don't think comic strips or cartoons really can get my point across -- and actually would be feeding directly into the problem explained by my novel which can only be explained in the context of a longer volume and therefore won't have any effect because no-one has the patience to read it. I.e. the problem can only be expressed in the medium which the problem is destroying. The snake eats its tail. Somehow I think this has a frightening correlation to the IT industry, although at the moment I don't really have the words to express how. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I actually doubt many people on this list fit that description. It has been years since I was involved in a web application that didn't have some kind of interface to allow for content editing by non-technical folk. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Jesse Noller [mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation The Point of Contribute is to not deprecate the programmer/designer. The point is to allow PHBs to quickly edit things like company contact information or news of the day or what's for lunch, primarily simple, doc-like sections of the website. How many of us have sat there twiddling our thumbs waiting for a PHB to email us the text for something as simple as company description... Or, as simple as item description. Me? I'd rather not have to burn 800 hours hitting refresh on my mail client while I wait for a paragraph of text to be added by some middle manager who had to hack it out through a legal department. Jesse Noller Macromedia Server Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Robert Polickoski [mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. Just my $0.02. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:19:57 -0500 At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio .. It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less- technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I'm with ya on this one Paul. People take their cars to the quick lube and think they are changing the oil when in reality, they've never seen the underside of their oil pan. Most non-technical people think web work is easy enough as it is because of WYSIWYG editors (mainly Frontpage), and expect your turnarounds to be as quick as them writing a document in Word. I see this product being used for good and evil. Like atom smashing? :P S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Thanks Mike... It's good to know from folks in the know that I've still got my edge ( whatever that is ). :P Isaac, you hit it right on the nose. mike chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:info;turnkey.to] You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Paul, I think that's a pretty unfair, and easy to answer argument. For starters, and I'm not jabbing at you, persons who live by that type of thinkging, well, they typically have a reason to live in that sort of fear. Macromedia, as best as I can tell, is listening to the PITA comments from web developers and designers everywhere. In fact, they're making it easier for persons who cannot create dynamically driven web pages to remain competitive. Certainly there's a deliniation between the levels, and Macromedia, in my opinion, is remaining competitive in a market where Content Management is a strong buzzword, but the strong costs associated with a Vignette doesn't seem to make much sense when someone can create a weblog in ColdFusion in just under 2 hours. Does that frighten you? Regardless, on of the biggest frustrations any developer / designer will admit to, beyond the difficulty in initially getting a client to sign-off on requirements and/or commit to what they want upfront, is the nickel-and-diming that happens afterward. I'd much rather be someone that a client doesn't have to depend on for minor updates--which will eliminate a portion of the stigma that all consultants want to keep their hands in a client for as much as they can or that a consultant will up-and-leave shortly after development because a project wasn't all that fun. No one's being replaced; maintenance is being reduced from a developer/designer perspective and in conjunction with that, so are some frustrations that go hand-in-hand with it. There's a forest out there, you just have to get beyond the trees to see it, in my opinion. -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
I guess I see Contribute this way. If I'm the webmaster of a small business, and we have a relatively good size web presence, I, using Dreamweaver, can use Contribute to have the secretaries or sales reps or others update portions of the website, under the control of the permissions I've set up with Dreamweaver. So now, instead of everyone sending me updates in email that I must transfer up to our pages, the departments can now do it for themselves. I don't see Contribute used in situations where folks are already too busy to contribute info, or in larger enterprise situations where you already have a robust, web based CMS in place. Since it runs on the desktop, like Dreamweaver, it's very limited (vs. a web based CMS), but then, it's a lot cheaper! It has a niche, and I think it will do great in that niche. Dave - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:57 AM Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation Except that Contribute is based on DreamWeaver's code base. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Robert Occhialini [mailto:bump;oddpost.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:43 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Contribute and Studio Observation At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. Robert Occhialini [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bump.net ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Then maybe it's not meant for you Matt. To each his own, eh? Jesse Noller Macromedia Server Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:mliotta;r337.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:54 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation I actually doubt many people on this list fit that description. It has been years since I was involved in a web application that didn't have some kind of interface to allow for content editing by non-technical folk. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Jesse Noller [mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation The Point of Contribute is to not deprecate the programmer/designer. The point is to allow PHBs to quickly edit things like company contact information or news of the day or what's for lunch, primarily simple, doc-like sections of the website. How many of us have sat there twiddling our thumbs waiting for a PHB to email us the text for something as simple as company description... Or, as simple as item description. Me? I'd rather not have to burn 800 hours hitting refresh on my mail client while I wait for a paragraph of text to be added by some middle manager who had to hack it out through a legal department. Jesse Noller Macromedia Server Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Robert Polickoski [mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. Just my $0.02. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:19:57 -0500 At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio .. It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less- technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
I think that's a pretty unfair, and easy to answer argument. not unfair, not anything really. you've missed my point. Does that frighten you? hardly anything but my wife scares me anymore. No one's being replaced; maintenance is being reduced from a developer/designer perspective and in conjunction with that, so are some frustrations that go hand-in-hand with it. and i guess i can say that some customers actually expect you to bear those frustrations as being part of their deal with you. you are being responsive to their sadistic needs ;-) yadda yadda yadda. but that was not my point. some offices might chuck their web staff out the window some day. their business might well shrivel up like some raisin they personally will probably end up in the dankest corner of the nether regions but they still might. think was the operative word there. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Interesting - because I fit exactly that. Each proposal that goes out has pricing for different administrative features - but my niche client typically pay me to do the updates while throwing more of the bulk of their budget into client features. I don't know if I am the only one dabbling in the $2000 to $10,000 website job range -but I have to believe that there are others like me that need light - quick and dirty solutions like these for some of their clients who decide not to invest in that extra admin form. jason Matt Liotta wrote: I actually doubt many people on this list fit that description. It has been years since I was involved in a web application that didn't have some kind of interface to allow for content editing by non-technical folk. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Jesse Noller [ mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com ] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation The Point of Contribute is to not deprecate the programmer/designer. The point is to allow PHBs to quickly edit things like company contact information or news of the day or what's for lunch, primarily simple, doc-like sections of the website. How many of us have sat there twiddling our thumbs waiting for a PHB to email us the text for something as simple as company description... Or, as simple as item description. Me? I'd rather not have to burn 800 hours hitting refresh on my mail client while I wait for a paragraph of text to be added by some middle manager who had to hack it out through a legal department. Jesse Noller Macromedia Server Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Robert Polickoski [ mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com ] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. Just my $0.02. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: S. Isaac Dealey mailto:info;turnkey.to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:cf-talk;houseoffusion.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:19:57 -0500 At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. I wouldn't say that this new tool is in any way a replacement for CF Studio . It's a web-based tool to allow non-technical ( or less- technical ) users to edit web content... So... it really in no way compares to Studio. What they're after is the wider audience of general, non-programmer business users, which is an entirely different market than Studio targeted. So I don't think it really relates (at least not directly) to their saying they didn't want to support more than one _traditional_ editing application. You wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Isaac, I wasn't attempting to imply that Contribute was intended as a replacement for Studio. The point I was attempting to make is that they announced that the Studio line was being end of lifed with the rationale being that they didn't want to have more than one Web editing/design tool to maintain. They then released another tool in that same area, albeit for a different audience. I was trying to point out that these two things are at odds with each other. I'd tack a bitter statement along the lines of Well we know where people who develop for Macromedia's server platform stand now. because I think that this is the message I get from this whole thing. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my previous mail. I still have basically the same impression of what you were trying to say .. I think I disagree... I'll leave it at that, rather than change the subject of the thread to business decisions about content editing tools and target audience semantics. :) S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation [OT]
At 11:09 AM 11/11/2, Robert Polickoski wrote: Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. I'd go along with that. Early computer users had to build their own machines. Now many more people can get up and productive more easily and economically. They don't have to worry about driver interrupts or TSRs. I see a parallel with Contribute -- you can control what they can edit, and then get out of their way. At 11:54 AM 11/11/2, David Notik wrote: Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing. So unless you make a living cutting and pasting text changes a client sends you, I wouldn't be too worried. The site, the code, and the initial content creation are all done by you, the developer/designer. Right on, thanks. Plus, I'd bet that the fact that the client can edit the pages will excite him, and keep him occupied with the site, and keep them coming back to you for additions/modifications/answers. That seems plausible to me too, and is the type of thing I've been wondering about... what social changes will we see with this new technology? I guess only time will tell, but I'm keen on such speculation now, thanks in advance. At 12:38 PM 11/11/2, Sandy Clark wrote: I don't think there is any way to market this as a content management system. More like a Edit your own damn text, the programmer has coding to do type of system. , I can see the T-shirt now ;-) jd John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco (Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!) Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/ Technical daily diary: http://jdmx.blogspot.com/ ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I think that's a pretty unfair, and easy to answer argument. not unfair, not anything really. you've missed my point. Okay, can you clarify your point then? Does that frighten you? hardly anything but my wife scares me anymore. As a married guy, we're all in that same boat together. No one's being replaced; maintenance is being reduced from a developer/designer perspective and in conjunction with that, so are some frustrations that go hand-in-hand with it. and i guess i can say that some customers actually expect you to bear those frustrations as being part of their deal with you. you are being responsive to their sadistic needs ;-) yadda yadda yadda. but that was not my point. some offices might chuck their web staff out the window some day. their business might well shrivel up like some raisin they personally will probably end up in the dankest corner of the nether regions but they still might. think was the operative word there. Sounds like you might want to address it on a client-by-client basis. In larger clients and in my experience, we've utilized rather large CM systems to handle everything, including a workflow process that often gets revisisted quite a bit. In smaller ones, with homegrown solutions, we typically allow them the opportunity, but they're paying for the technology. It's a bit more customizable--at least right now--and has to do with the specific needs of the client. I'd find this to be a great asset, from my limited exposure to it thus far, to some of the lower-budget, less-technology savvy clients. Regardless of which, as long as I can begin to remove myself and my team from the process of the content, I'm happy as a clam. Plus, if I have to repair one more typo... ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Well, then shouldn't that be a function of the overall design of the site. If you want user editable content, provide the means within the site for them to do this and store the changeable content in a database or some other mechanism rather than inventing some application that allows users to change the actual pages. Whether it is a reality or not, if the user thinks he is editing or creating web page content because you give him a tool to change the content of one specific div, your superflouessness will certainly cross his/her mind. Not to beat a dead horse, but why is it that Powerpoint 101 is a critical course for engineering students? Because graphic presentation departments went the way of the buggy whip when powerpoint was put on everybody's desktop. And I will be the first to say that I lament the trend because I am terrible at producing presentations but am forced to do it because the support organization no longer exists. To quote the C in C from The Undiscovered Country, just because we cand do a thing doesn't mean that we must do a thing, or even should. I guess I'm up to $0.04 now. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: David Notik [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:54:09 -0800 I don't think that should be a concern. Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing. So unless you make a living cutting and pasting text changes a client sends you, I wouldn't be too worried. The site, the code, and the initial content creation are all done by you, the developer/designer. Contribute comes into play when you start getting client phone calls (each call lasting 10 minutes at least) asking you to make a few text changes, or to use the new paragraph they're about to send you, or to hypothesize what text might be better that what is currently there. I do this too often, and it is *not* worth my time, and I'm sure I am losing money as a result. You could just have them buy Contribute and make the text changes they want. That keeps you coding (and happy) and the client happy. If you're worried about the fact that the client will no longer call you to change foxtrot to fox trot, you probably have way too much time on your hands, and I can only strongly suggest that you could probably make better use of creatively inclined mind. Besides, from my experience, even the tiniest modification takes 15 minutes (between the phone call, the popping open the site, locating the page, making the edit, e-mailing the client about the change, winding down). If I charge $125/hour, I can justify charging over $30 for fox trot to myself, but does that really make sense? I don't think so. Better to open up the content to the client, and focus on design and development. Plus, I'd bet that the fact that the client can edit the pages will excite him, and keep him occupied with the site, and keep them coming back to you for additions/modifications/answers. Personally, I welcome Macromedia Contribute with open arms. Go MM! -D ### David Notik Digital202, LLC Imagination gone digital. Web: www.digital202.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: (206) 575-1717 Mobile: (206) 351-3948 ### -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
I don't think that should be a concern. Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing. So unless you make a living cutting and missed my point...when they *think* they don't need the coders. perception is everything. a decade ago i worked in a stink tank full of economists. these folks knew they knew everything acted accordingly. made some truly horrific messes where their grasp far exceeded their knowledge. in a perfect world contribute would be a great thing-and i'm not saying its not going to be a great thing--but i can see some instances where management will pry open the windows start chucking staff out them and make content dynamic via the diaper brigade ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
I don't think it will replace the admin section that I build into my web sites which allow the user to do exactly the same. probably not but somebody somewhere will think it can. doom gloom. no good will come of this but i guess i'll buy a couple of seats for other parts of my office. social experiment. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
David notik said: Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing It's that kind of statement that makes Contribute scary IMHO (i.e. seems to allow...). Well IF it DOES allow AND you CAN lock down all that stuff, then it MAY be OK. The big question is can this be done? and who does it? If it's not locked down properly...BOOMif it all can't be locked downBOOM. That said, It's a new product so I won't moan and groan about it until non-IT folks start destroying sites just like they have always done with FrontPage ;-) Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. t. 250.920.8830 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Macromedia Associate Partner www.macromedia.com - Vancouver Island ColdFusion Users Group Founder Director www.cfug-vancouverisland.com - Original Message - From: David Notik [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:54 AM Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation I don't think that should be a concern. Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing. So unless you make a living cutting and pasting text changes a client sends you, I wouldn't be too worried. The site, the code, and the initial content creation are all done by you, the developer/designer. Contribute comes into play when you start getting client phone calls (each call lasting 10 minutes at least) asking you to make a few text changes, or to use the new paragraph they're about to send you, or to hypothesize what text might be better that what is currently there. I do this too often, and it is *not* worth my time, and I'm sure I am losing money as a result. You could just have them buy Contribute and make the text changes they want. That keeps you coding (and happy) and the client happy. If you're worried about the fact that the client will no longer call you to change foxtrot to fox trot, you probably have way too much time on your hands, and I can only strongly suggest that you could probably make better use of creatively inclined mind. Besides, from my experience, even the tiniest modification takes 15 minutes (between the phone call, the popping open the site, locating the page, making the edit, e-mailing the client about the change, winding down). If I charge $125/hour, I can justify charging over $30 for fox trot to myself, but does that really make sense? I don't think so. Better to open up the content to the client, and focus on design and development. Plus, I'd bet that the fact that the client can edit the pages will excite him, and keep him occupied with the site, and keep them coming back to you for additions/modifications/answers. Personally, I welcome Macromedia Contribute with open arms. Go MM! -D ### David Notik Digital202, LLC Imagination gone digital. Web: www.digital202.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: (206) 575-1717 Mobile: (206) 351-3948 ### -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:47 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using either CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the studio/dw folks defenestrate them? ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
putting others out of theirs. That's been the whole point of factory / office automation from the start: businesses save money (in the long run) by automating tasks they previously paid wages / salary to have done. time to run up the skull cross bones. but in some cultures, at some times, thats not always the case. i can recall the 1st personal computer deployed in the Thai gov office where i was a peace corps volunteer. an ozzy donated 64kb DEC rainbow. some of the clerical staff thought they'd be shuffled along elsewhere because of it. within 4 months they had hired 3 extra people to work on that computer. i still see that happening in the municipalities we work with these days. the initial IT shock wave (these folks were paper based before we came along dragged them kicking screaming into their own IT hell ;-) almost always generates a small boom for local IT people. ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
which allow the user to do exactly the same. If it does exactly the same thing, why would they pay your hourly $ charge to build them an admin section? -Original Message- From: samcfug [mailto:doug;samcfug.org] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation I don't think it will replace the admin section that I build into my web sites which allow the user to do exactly the same. = Douglas White group Manager mailto:doug;samcfug.org http://www.samcfug.org = - Original Message - From: Ryan Kime [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation | I'm with ya on this one Paul. | | People take their cars to the quick lube and think they are changing the | oil when in reality, they've never seen the underside of their oil pan. Most | non-technical people think web work is easy enough as it is because of | WYSIWYG editors (mainly Frontpage), and expect your turnarounds to be as | quick as them writing a document in Word. | | I see this product being used for good and evil. | | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] | Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:47 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation | | | wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using | either | CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your | office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or | Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. | | and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the | studio/dw folks defenestrate them? | | | ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
| David notik said: | Contribute seems to allow you | to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow | actual text content editing Sounds good, but exactly how does one do that when the application is on a client machine two states away and there is no server side scripting? = Douglas White group Manager mailto:doug;samcfug.org http://www.samcfug.org = - Original Message - From: Bryan Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
its all about the sale. if you sell them the ease of changing stuff on their site without having to know code, and simply input data in form fields...etc.etc.etc.. then they are always happy...if you sell it correctly you get the Cash for the admin development, and dont have to worry about some knucklehead mucking up your code. its all about selling your services the correct way. tw -Original Message- From: Ryan Kime [mailto:rkime;webcoindustries.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:44 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation which allow the user to do exactly the same. If it does exactly the same thing, why would they pay your hourly $ charge to build them an admin section? -Original Message- From: samcfug [mailto:doug;samcfug.org] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:51 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation I don't think it will replace the admin section that I build into my web sites which allow the user to do exactly the same. = Douglas White group Manager mailto:doug;samcfug.org http://www.samcfug.org = - Original Message - From: Ryan Kime [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation | I'm with ya on this one Paul. | | People take their cars to the quick lube and think they are changing the | oil when in reality, they've never seen the underside of their oil pan. Most | non-technical people think web work is easy enough as it is because of | WYSIWYG editors (mainly Frontpage), and expect your turnarounds to be as | quick as them writing a document in Word. | | I see this product being used for good and evil. | | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] | Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:47 PM | To: CF-Talk | Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation | | | wouldn't buy Contribute for the folks in your office currently using | either | CF Studio or Dreamweaver -- you'd buy Contribute for the folks in your | office currently sending email to the folks using CF Studio or | Dreamweaver to ask them to make changes. | | and how long before the contribute users think they no longer need the | studio/dw folks defenestrate them? | | | ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Got it. I would agree with you, to an extent. I can very well see a client/boss hearing about Contribute, and deciding to instruct his web developer to make the site work with Contribute thinking he can do everything he needs to, then proceeding to royally #$@! up the site. But that's why Contribute allows you to specify what can be changed and to what extent. *You* open up the various elements, *you* control what they can do, *you* control how they do it. So if you only want them to edit text (not styles/fonts), done. If you don't want them to edit anything, don't open up anything and say something like your site is too 'complex and intertwined' to allow for that. You're the developer... you still have the control. At first glance, it seems Contribute did a very good job of keeping that control. I am personally, by the way, definitely interested in opening up text areas to various clients. I feel that even if I make $30 for a 15 minute text change, it's worthless to me because that time (and it adds up!) can be spent doing something better such as working on a project/component that will reap me tremendous benefits later on... versus making tons of text changes, making the money for the change... but really moving nowhere. Plus, I think us developers have become too accustomed to clients not knowing how to do anything we do (change text), and I believe that we need to begin making certain elements of a site's creation process open to the average user. I think there is no lack of technical stuff to keep us overly busy with and to keep our positions and industry secure for millennia to come. Thoughts? --D ### David Notik Digital202, LLC Imagination gone digital. Web: www.digital202.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: (206) 575-1717 Mobile: (206) 351-3948 ### -Original Message- From: Paul Hastings [mailto:paul;tei.or.th] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:45 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation I don't think that should be a concern. Contribute seems to allow you to lock down everything, including fonts and styles, and just allow actual text content editing. So unless you make a living cutting and missed my point...when they *think* they don't need the coders. perception is everything. a decade ago i worked in a stink tank full of economists. these folks knew they knew everything acted accordingly. made some truly horrific messes where their grasp far exceeded their knowledge. in a perfect world contribute would be a great thing-and i'm not saying its not going to be a great thing--but i can see some instances where management will pry open the windows start chucking staff out them and make content dynamic via the diaper brigade ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I maybe wrong here (I haven't looked at Contribute yet and I came late to the discussion) but I'm thinking that Contribute and Admin interface, for the most part, perform different services. Contribute allows you to edit non-dynamic blocks of text. Admin interfaces (unless they're intended to allow you to edit non-dynamic blocks of text) tend to provide a pretty interface for modifying the data in a database. So if you have a block of code that looks over a QRS and displays it in an HTML table, the Admin interface would let you add/edit/delete rows while Contribute would let you change the appearance of the table or edit the table headers. -- Mosh Teitelbaum evoch, LLC Tel: (301) 625-9191 Fax: (301) 933-3651 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WWW: http://www.evoch.com/ -Original Message- From: Jason Miller [mailto:millerj;etcnj.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:56 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation Interesting - because I fit exactly that. Each proposal that goes out has pricing for different administrative features - but my niche client typically pay me to do the updates while throwing more of the bulk of their budget into client features. I don't know if I am the only one dabbling in the $2000 to $10,000 website job range -but I have to believe that there are others like me that need light - quick and dirty solutions like these for some of their clients who decide not to invest in that extra admin form. jason Matt Liotta wrote: I actually doubt many people on this list fit that description. It has been years since I was involved in a web application that didn't have some kind of interface to allow for content editing by non-technical folk. Matt Liotta President CEO Montara Software, Inc. http://www.montarasoftware.com/ http://www.montarasoftware.com/ 888-408-0900 x901 -Original Message- From: Jesse Noller [ mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com ] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Contribute and Studio Observation The Point of Contribute is to not deprecate the programmer/designer. The point is to allow PHBs to quickly edit things like company contact information or news of the day or what's for lunch, primarily simple, doc-like sections of the website. How many of us have sat there twiddling our thumbs waiting for a PHB to email us the text for something as simple as company description... Or, as simple as item description. Me? I'd rather not have to burn 800 hours hitting refresh on my mail client while I wait for a paragraph of text to be added by some middle manager who had to hack it out through a legal department. Jesse Noller Macromedia Server Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:jnoller;macromedia.com -Original Message- From: Robert Polickoski [ mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com ] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Contribute and Studio Observation Not that I am trying to be exclusive or pompous, but when you start allowing people who know nothing about web page design or development to design or develop web pages, you get web pages designed or developed by people who know nothing about the process. I think it is a dangerous trend to try to make all technology available to everyone. As a case and point: The professional secreatry is all but dead. Because the word processor is now available to everyone, everyone is expected to use it. Therefore, you now have middle executive types spending twice as long to develop documents at 3 times the cost with 1/2 the effectiveness because they really don't know how to write. Specialization is not always a bad thing. Is it so horrible to expect that if someone wants to use a technology, they actually learn how to use it. Just my $0.02. Robert J. Polickoski Senior Programmer, ISRD Inc. (540) 842-6339 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:rpolickoski;isrd.com AIM - RobertJFP -- Original Message -- From: S. Isaac Dealey mailto:info;turnkey.to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:cf-talk;houseoffusion.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:19:57 -0500 At the risk of being a trouble maker, I just have to make this observation. Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
I'm looking through the online documentation of Contribute because it may be a solution for a particular client of ours. One specific question that I haven't seen answered is whether there is built-in publishing from a staging or development server to a production server, particularly through a firewall. Perhaps someone from Macromedia or who has seen the demonstration can answer this. Thanks. Simon ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
RE: Contribute and Studio Observation
Now that we are allowed to talk about Contribute, I have to say the following: We have been told that MM is doing away with Studio/Homesite because they do not want to have more than one editing application in their application portfolio. I accepted this despite Dreamweaver's obvious issues that have already been covered to death. So what is the next application that MM releases? Another web editing application. I might be the only one that is irked by this, or maybe not, but it seems very odd to me. From what I've gathered, Contribute is based on the same underlying codebase as Dreamweaver MX - it's basically Dreamweaver Lite, as far as I can tell. Dreamweaver MX has the same sort of stuff in it already - the ability to define a site, to create templates within that site, to lock code within those templates, and so on. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting.
Re: Contribute and Studio Observation
Sounds good, but exactly how does one do that when the application is on a client machine two states away and there is no server side scripting? You may want to read about it on MM's website and see by yourself. Basically you can: 1) Define sitewide settings that are stored in a XML file 2) Use DW's templates Personally, I hate DW's templates, but that's just me Massimo Foti Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver http://www.macromedia.com/go/team ~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribeforumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm
