RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Dave,

I didn't like the query builder that was in the devnet, I don't recall the
specifics, besides which devnet is no longer.

I know about CommunityMX's extension, and I've written my own, but the
filepath display should be part of the UI, not a 3rd party add on that takes
up more space. And the add on doesn't address mousing over tabs to show the
filepath.

I said convert TAGs to lower/upper case, the method you list converts all
text (I don't want to change the text of my attribute values).

As I said the apply source code formatting function doesn't know how to deal
with comments nor offers an option to specify formatting of the comments, I
believe it also has issues with middle tags such as cfelse.

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 4:07 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

these r showing up a few days late

anyways isnt there a decent query builder in an early devnet?

[quote]One of my biggest issues with Dreamweaver is simply that it takes up
a lot of screen space[/quote]
there is a real nice extension that goes on title bar and simple to show and
hide panels, and communitymx.com has a nice show full path in title bar one

[quote]convert tags to lowercase[/quote]
its there
highlight word(s) right click  selection  convert to lowercase or convert
to uppercase or convert tags to lowercase or convert tags to uppercase

[quote]a code sweeper/source formatting[/quote]
commands  apply source code formatting or clean up xhtml etc

they are there, go ahead and look ;)


-- Original Message --
From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Date:  Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:38:18 -0500

 1) Dreamweaver's file panel is difficult to navigate because 
 the files and the folders are all nested together in a very 
 small area. HomeSite and Windows Explorer for example, divide 
 the files and folders in an easy to use fashion. Solution: 
 Make an option to view the file/site structure in that manner.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One of my biggest issues with
Dreamweaver is simply that it takes up a lot of screen space if you use it
effectively, so you simply have to have a giant high-resolution monitor to
take best advantage of it. As for the display of the files and folders
themselves, this seems more to be a preference that we might have based on
our usage of Windows Explorer.

 2) Combined with (1), is the interesting choice of not 
 showing the full file path in the title bar, or somewhere. 
 Again, in HomeSite, you can see exactly which file you are 
 editing, but in DW, if you are looking at the same file in 
 both the dev server and the edition on your workstation, you 
 CANNOT easily tell which one is which. Solution: display the 
 full filepath in the titlebar, or another reasonable 
 location, AND show the full filepath when mousing over the 
 document title tabs.

I think that's a great suggestion.

 4) Lack of support for Source Control systems, HomeSite 
 supports VSS, CVS, etc. And it appears that because HomeSite 
 support SCC, it inherently supports more Source Control 
 systems without additional development by the user.

In my few attempts to use it, I had quite a bit of trouble getting CF
Studio
to work with source control systems. Have you had success with this? Do you
think it's worth incorporating this into the product rather than just using
a standalone client?

 6) The HomeSite query builder was pretty decent to work in, 
 put something like that in.

Yes, for the love of all that's holy, I've been asking for a standard query
builder since the dawn of time! For the life of me, I can't imagine what
was
going through the DW team's heads when they came up with the ones DW has.

 7) Interactive debugging! That's really going to be more 
 useful in the age of OO with CF.

I think that's a limitation imposed by CFMX. CF 4 and 5 supported
interactive debugging, but CFMX doesn't. As for its usefulness, most people
were lucky to get it to work at all! Once you did get it working, it wasn't
usually that helpful anyway in my experience.

 9) There's a number little annoying things missing, such as 
 convert tags to lowercase, a code sweeper/source formatting 
 that understand comments and 'middle' tags (cfelse), go to 
 end of tag hotkey, code collapse and so forth.

Code collapse is probably the one of those features I miss most. I'd like
to
see all of them added.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!






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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[dave]

yes i agree the query wizard should come with it but as it is right now it 
doesnt
but its on devnet 4
http://www.macromedia.com/software/drk/productinfo/product_overview/volume4/
im gunna have to dig that 1 out, i just saw a tut for hs where they used the 
query wizard and that is quite nice!
i never used it before


i accidently erased that email so i forget what other points u brought up 
but the convert TAGS to lowercase is there
http://www.jamwerx.com/lc.jpg 

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 1) Dreamweaver's file panel is difficult to navigate because 
 the files and the folders are all nested together in a very 
 small area. HomeSite and Windows Explorer for example, divide 
 the files and folders in an easy to use fashion. Solution: 
 Make an option to view the file/site structure in that manner.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One of my biggest issues with
Dreamweaver is simply that it takes up a lot of screen space if you use it
effectively, so you simply have to have a giant high-resolution monitor to
take best advantage of it. As for the display of the files and folders
themselves, this seems more to be a preference that we might have based on
our usage of Windows Explorer.

 2) Combined with (1), is the interesting choice of not 
 showing the full file path in the title bar, or somewhere. 
 Again, in HomeSite, you can see exactly which file you are 
 editing, but in DW, if you are looking at the same file in 
 both the dev server and the edition on your workstation, you 
 CANNOT easily tell which one is which. Solution: display the 
 full filepath in the titlebar, or another reasonable 
 location, AND show the full filepath when mousing over the 
 document title tabs.

I think that's a great suggestion.

 4) Lack of support for Source Control systems, HomeSite 
 supports VSS, CVS, etc. And it appears that because HomeSite 
 support SCC, it inherently supports more Source Control 
 systems without additional development by the user.

In my few attempts to use it, I had quite a bit of trouble getting CF Studio
to work with source control systems. Have you had success with this? Do you
think it's worth incorporating this into the product rather than just using
a standalone client?

 6) The HomeSite query builder was pretty decent to work in, 
 put something like that in.

Yes, for the love of all that's holy, I've been asking for a standard query
builder since the dawn of time! For the life of me, I can't imagine what was
going through the DW team's heads when they came up with the ones DW has.

 7) Interactive debugging! That's really going to be more 
 useful in the age of OO with CF.

I think that's a limitation imposed by CFMX. CF 4 and 5 supported
interactive debugging, but CFMX doesn't. As for its usefulness, most people
were lucky to get it to work at all! Once you did get it working, it wasn't
usually that helpful anyway in my experience.

 9) There's a number little annoying things missing, such as 
 convert tags to lowercase, a code sweeper/source formatting 
 that understand comments and 'middle' tags (cfelse), go to 
 end of tag hotkey, code collapse and so forth.

Code collapse is probably the one of those features I miss most. I'd like to
see all of them added.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Sean Corfield]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:05:31 +0100, Micha Schopman
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And that product synergy isn't the right way I think. It is like they
 are building products around Flash, and it is something they should not
 do with ColdFusion.

The world is about solutions not products so product synergy is
definitely the right way. As for CF integratiing with Flash, well, you
don't have to use those products - lots of people are very excited
about the Flash integration features: CF's feature set is being driven
by customers.

 MM should be careful, not focusing to much on Flash. Focus on the core
 product.

Er, Flash is the core product. Flash Player ubiquity. Flash authoring,
Flex, Breeze, Captivate (and several of the other Robo* products),
Flash Lite for cell phones. Hundreds of millions of installed players,
millions of developers. I'd say that CF's Flash integration makes it
the server scripting language of choice for Flash-based apps and that
ought to be a good thing...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
Got Gmail? -- I have 5 invites to give away!

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Micha Schopman]

Yes, you are right about Flash.

Micha Schopman
Software Engineer

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[dave]

these r showing up a few days late

anyways isnt there a decent query builder in an early devnet?

[quote]One of my biggest issues with Dreamweaver is simply that it takes up a 
lot of screen space[/quote]
there is a real nice extension that goes on title bar and simple to show and 
hide panels, and communitymx.com has a nice show full path in title bar one

[quote]convert tags to lowercase[/quote]
its there
highlight word(s) right click  selection  convert to lowercase or convert to 
uppercase or convert tags to lowercase or convert tags to uppercase

[quote]a code sweeper/source formatting[/quote]
commands  apply source code formatting or clean up xhtml etc

they are there, go ahead and look ;)


-- Original Message --
From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Date:  Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:38:18 -0500

 1) Dreamweaver's file panel is difficult to navigate because 
 the files and the folders are all nested together in a very 
 small area. HomeSite and Windows Explorer for example, divide 
 the files and folders in an easy to use fashion. Solution: 
 Make an option to view the file/site structure in that manner.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One of my biggest issues with
Dreamweaver is simply that it takes up a lot of screen space if you use it
effectively, so you simply have to have a giant high-resolution monitor to
take best advantage of it. As for the display of the files and folders
themselves, this seems more to be a preference that we might have based on
our usage of Windows Explorer.

 2) Combined with (1), is the interesting choice of not 
 showing the full file path in the title bar, or somewhere. 
 Again, in HomeSite, you can see exactly which file you are 
 editing, but in DW, if you are looking at the same file in 
 both the dev server and the edition on your workstation, you 
 CANNOT easily tell which one is which. Solution: display the 
 full filepath in the titlebar, or another reasonable 
 location, AND show the full filepath when mousing over the 
 document title tabs.

I think that's a great suggestion.

 4) Lack of support for Source Control systems, HomeSite 
 supports VSS, CVS, etc. And it appears that because HomeSite 
 support SCC, it inherently supports more Source Control 
 systems without additional development by the user.

In my few attempts to use it, I had quite a bit of trouble getting CF Studio
to work with source control systems. Have you had success with this? Do you
think it's worth incorporating this into the product rather than just using
a standalone client?

 6) The HomeSite query builder was pretty decent to work in, 
 put something like that in.

Yes, for the love of all that's holy, I've been asking for a standard query
builder since the dawn of time! For the life of me, I can't imagine what was
going through the DW team's heads when they came up with the ones DW has.

 7) Interactive debugging! That's really going to be more 
 useful in the age of OO with CF.

I think that's a limitation imposed by CFMX. CF 4 and 5 supported
interactive debugging, but CFMX doesn't. As for its usefulness, most people
were lucky to get it to work at all! Once you did get it working, it wasn't
usually that helpful anyway in my experience.

 9) There's a number little annoying things missing, such as 
 convert tags to lowercase, a code sweeper/source formatting 
 that understand comments and 'middle' tags (cfelse), go to 
 end of tag hotkey, code collapse and so forth.

Code collapse is probably the one of those features I miss most. I'd like to
see all of them added.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!




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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Possibly, but then that doesn't mesh with the following official statement:
Dreamweaver MX is the primary development tool for users building
applications with ColdFusion MX

You'll find that here:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/productinfo/faq/general/

Of course I could build a ColdFusion site with Notepad too! :P

Thanks,
Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:31 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:17:05 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 However, I still find that DW lacks a great deal that it should have since
 it is the declared ColdFusion editor of choice by the maker of ColdFusion.

Bzzzt! Nope. Not the editor. I think you'll find the official line
is that it's meant to be a ColdFusion editor and that it's meant to
have enough functionality that CFers don't actually *need* anything
beyond DW (they may *want* more but that's a different story). In
other words, if you're building a web site and using CF, you *could*
use DW as your only IDE.

Read Ben Forta's CFDJ article on Dreamweaver:

http://www.sys-con.com/coldfusion/article.cfm?id=696

So, is Dreamweaver MX 2004 the best tool for ColdFusion developers,
and if I was asked to say so now would I be able to do so? I think I'd
have to answer that with a qualified possibly. It is probably not
the best tool for all ColdFusion developers, but for many it is. Is
Dreamweaver MX 2004 a replacement for ColdFusion Studio? Absolutely
not (and I know that some Macromedia sales reps spin Dreamweaver that
way, and they're wrong). If it was, we'd not include HomeSite+ with
every copy of Dreamweaver bought, would we? The reason we provide both
products is that there is value in both, and as a ColdFusion developer
you get to pick which works best for you, using one or both as suits
you best. (Yes, if you are a Windows Dreamweaver user, then you
already have a copy of HomeSite+ that you may use too; it's included
with Dreamweaver but needs to be installed separately.)
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Sean Corfield]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:05:31 +0100, Micha Schopman
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 DWMX really has some big issues, but you won't notice them if you only
 work 2 hours a day with the product. I have other people here which must
 use the product 40 hours a week due to company product policies, and
 they are definitely not happy with the product.

Hmm, I use it 40 hours a week and I'm pretty happy with it. But then I
do a lot of non-CF stuff in it (as well as some CF stuff). And, yes, I
use CFEclipse for most of my core CF stuff (my CFC stuff).

 Besides the bugs, the
 product feels like it is build with Flash.

Ironic, considering it's closer to DHTML :)

 So either their [Macromedia Developers]
 bug tracking fails terribly or they don't seem to care and don't want to
 put effort and money in patches.

I think you're doing the DW engineers a great disservice. Everything
that goes into the wish form gets read and *if there are enough
details in the submission to make it clear what the bug actually is*
those wish entries get into the bug base.
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Micha Schopman]

Sean, .. that latest is not true. DWMX engineers even confirmed not
being aware of the bugs on conferences. It is not an issue of the
engineers, it is an issue of the engineers not being informed.

And honestly, .. I payed big bucks for the product, I don't really care
about emotional thoughts behind it. I just want a working product for
the money. We have about 30 licenses here for DWMX.

Micha Schopman
Software Engineer

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Tangorre, Michael]

 From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 Sean, .. that latest is not true. DWMX engineers even 
 confirmed not being aware of the bugs on conferences. It is 
 not an issue of the engineers, it is an issue of the 
 engineers not being informed.

Honestly, don't you think Sean would have more insight into the issue
than us, especially since he works at MM? I know he does not work on the
tools team but let's face it, he doesn't toss a recommendation to submit
items to the wish list for nothing... It servers a purpose, so we should
use it, not just for DWMX but for any MM product.
 
 And honestly, .. I payed big bucks for the product, I don't 
 really care about emotional thoughts behind it. I just want a 
 working product for the money. We have about 30 licenses here 
 for DWMX.

Working product is very subjective. What's broken? What additional
features would you like to see in later releases? What might be broken
in your opinion might not be in someone else's. The engineer's won't
know what to enhance or add unless we, the users, send them feedback
through the wish list.

Mike

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Micha Schopman]

Oh ofcourse he has. I have no insight whatsoever, but I can imagine you don't 
know about everything within a club of 1000+ employees.

I have submitted several extensive reports through the MM website bug 
submission form. Bugs, described in detail with complete steps to reproduce. So 
I have in fact done my own part, notify something is wrong, and I cannot do 
more than submitting reports.

The part of engineers not being aware, has been confirmed by an engineer 
himself. Asking the engineer when do you plan to fix bug A, bug B and bug C 
were replied with what bugs? ...

As a customer this makes me think excuse me?. It is not that I am angry, I am 
just dissapointed and astonished. I cannot imagine no one ever had problems 
with the treeview part, the welcoming screen staying on top of the coding 
canvas, crashes when searching through folders, not being able to cut/copy/past 
files without the message file already exists and the targetfolder had just 
been created.

I can imagine, when you have bugs that occur on very odd actions, or occur on 
such a low scale, you say as a company this bug involves too much time and 
money to be fixed .. but the bugs I submitted were of the type occuring very 
often.

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Tangorre, Michael]

 From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 Oh ofcourse he has. I have no insight whatsoever, but I can 
 imagine you don't know about everything within a club of 
 1000+ employees.

Nor could assume that all the engineers see every bug report!
 
 I have submitted several extensive reports through the MM 
 website bug submission form. Bugs, described in detail with 
 complete steps to reproduce. So I have in fact done my own 
 part, notify something is wrong, and I cannot do more than 
 submitting reports.

I am sure there is some kind of formula that dictates what number of
occurrences prompts further investigation. Just because you have the
issue does not mean everyone does. The more people that report the
problem the greater the possibility it gets looked into further.

 The part of engineers not being aware, has been confirmed by 
 an engineer himself. Asking the engineer when do you plan to 
 fix bug A, bug B and bug C were replied with what bugs? ...

Again, one engineer not being in_the_know as to every bug is not
uncommon. I would imagine they get discussed in some kind of fashion,
evaluated and the appropriate people are informed of the action being
taken, if any at all.

 As a customer this makes me think excuse me?. It is not 
 that I am angry, I am just dissapointed and astonished. I 
 cannot imagine no one ever had problems with the treeview 
 part, the welcoming screen staying on top of the coding 
 canvas, crashes when searching through folders, not being 
 able to cut/copy/past files without the message file already 
 exists and the targetfolder had just been created.

Again YMMV. I have not run into all the things you mentioned; that is
not to say they don't exist but if only a people report it how can MM
make the case to investigate it ahead of other things being reported.

 I can imagine, when you have bugs that occur on very odd 
 actions, or occur on such a low scale, you say as a company 
 this bug involves too much time and money to be fixed .. 
 but the bugs I submitted were of the type occuring very often.

The amount of feedback probably triggers further response Which
makes sense. You are doing your part in reporting to MM in detail the
issues you encounter. When enough people report to MM or the higher
priority issues are resolved I bet they do look into yours.

Mike

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Jim Davis]

 -Original Message-
 From: Micha Schopman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 5:06 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 And that product synergy isn't the right way I think. It is like they
 are building products around Flash, and it is something they should not
 do with ColdFusion. It started with cfgraph. Yes that was a good
 functionality, but now .. it is expanding to flash forms, and
 flashpaper? .. It is just a personal opinion, but I don't see myself
 ever using flash forms. The PDF export is very good, that is one of the
 features people want from the product for years, as well as reporting
 features, and source codeless deployment.

Of course the code to do PDF forms/reports vrs Flash Forms/Reports is nearly
identical - you're still building, essentially, HTML/XML - it's only at the
end do you decide whether you want HTML, PDF or Flash.

So you still just build applications - if you never want to use Flash ignore
it, but it's there if you want it (and will probably only require a one word
change in your code).

Jim Davis




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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 And that product synergy isn't the right way I think. It is 
 like they are building products around Flash, and it is 
 something they should not do with ColdFusion. It started with 
 cfgraph. Yes that was a good functionality, but now .. it is 
 expanding to flash forms, and flashpaper? .. It is just a 
 personal opinion, but I don't see myself ever using flash 
 forms. The PDF export is very good, that is one of the 
 features people want from the product for years, as well as 
 reporting features, and source codeless deployment.

You're free to disagree with me, of course, but Flash is the one asset that
Macromedia has that no other vendor has. To me, it makes perfect sense for
them to leverage that asset as much as they can, and I think they're doing a
pretty good job at that.

 MM should be careful, not focusing to much on Flash. Focus on 
 the core product. I do like Flash, but Flash has it's own 
 territory, and fully Flashed websites don't work, Macromedia 
 already showed it with their first Macromedia website, and 
 still people complain about the Flash based tag exchange.

Is that a problem with Flash, or a problem with the design of the
Flash-based tag exchange? I agree that Flash isn't the answer to everything,
but Flash is their core product. There are plenty of Flash applications
that do work very well - much better generally than DHTML analogues - and
holding up one example you don't like is not a valid critique of the
technology itself.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 DWMX really has some big issues, but you won't notice them if 
 you only work 2 hours a day with the product. I have other 
 people here which must use the product 40 hours a week due to 
 company product policies, and they are definitely not happy 
 with the product. Besides the bugs, the product feels like it 
 is build with Flash.

Yes, yes, yes, it has problems. So does almost every other application I've
seen, if you use it 40 hours a week. I used to use CF Studio as my primary
editor, and I had all kinds of problems with it at the time. It was a
resource hog on my workstation at the time, and would crash quite a bit, but
I found it preferable to having ten copies of Notepad open simultaneously so
I put up with it. I don't think you'll find anyone here saying it's perfect,
just that (a) it's not as bad as most people seem to think and (b) it
doesn't represent Macromedia's abandonment of poor, woeful CF developers.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Ben Rogers]

 Calvin not quite.   CFEclipse, I can see, is a terrific development,
 but as I found to my cost, if installation doesnt go right, it's very
 very difficult to fix.Support is dependent on the ample goodwill
 of the people developing it,  but still there is no obligation on
 anyone to make sure it all works.

You had problems installing Eclipse itself, the CFEclipse plug-in, or other
Eclipse plug-ins?

 This is no criticism of the folks who are developing the CFEclipse
 product, but I found it difficult to download (It took more than an
 hour to start downloading by the time i negotiated the maze of
 sourceforge) and then installation didn't go perfectly - I wasn't sure
 which of the 45 files i was supposed to be downloading, and even then
 it wasnt a fullly bundled package.   So.  having a problematic
 download and installation, everything went downhill from there.

Neither Eclipse or CFEclipse are not hosted on SourceForge. Eclipse offers
it's own download site and mirrors. Depending on what mirror you choose, it
can be a little confusing figuring out what file you want. However, it's
generally not as hellish as the standard SourceForge download page.

CFEclipse is on Tigris. There's installation instructions on the CFEclipse
project home page:

  http://cfeclipse.tigris.org/

 Several of the patient and helpful people working on CFEclipse tried
 to help, but unlike a paid-for package like StudioMX, I had no right
 to DEMAND support.  I could not insist on whatever it took to get it
 all going properly for me.  IN the end i had to just cross it off my
 list as another
 probably-good-product-i-have-to-have-another-go-at-one-day.

I've had bad luck getting Eclipse setup with various sundry plug-ins that I
need to make it truly useful for me. So, I know how you feel. I've got it
all up and working right now. However, I, umm, don't use it. :P It's still
missing functionality that I find useful in HomeSite (dual file managers,
for instance), and even the platform runtime install of Eclipse is
unbearably slow. It's as bad as Dreamweaver.

 That's the difference between a user-supported open source application
 and a fully commercial paid-for app.

It is the difference between many of them. But I found the Subversion and
TortoiseSVN install and setup much better than commercial products. It
really depends on the project in question and the closed source products
it's competing against.

 In the case of CFEclipse, I can see if it all goes well, it's a very
 versatile and developer-oriented product.  If it doesnt all go well
 it's a bloody nightmare.

Well, if your trouble was getting Eclipse up and running, then it may have
been a lack of familiarity with Eclipse itself. Eclipse has a pretty steep
learning curve. I had to spend several days just trying to grasp Eclipse. I
found that taking some of the tutorials for Java developers helped me gain
an understanding of what Eclipse is (a platform for IDE development) and
what it isn't (a pre-packaged, full featured IDE). That approach may or may
not work for you.

If your problem was with CFEclipse, then your expectations might have been a
bit too high. CFEclipse is still relatively immature at this point. It's a
great plug-in, but it hasn't been around for very long, the users are
increasing dramatically at the moment (which means many more people are
testing on various platforms), and it's under very active development. I
would imagine that, in another year or so, development will have slowed to a
more maintainable pace and features will be more fully fleshed out. Right
now, each new build of CFEclipse seems radically different than the previous
build. That's fine for many developers (fine for me, in fact), but it sounds
like you're really looking for something more stable.

 It's the same with the open source CMS  Farcry.  If installation goes
 well, it's obviously straightforward. If you hit a snag you can't
 DEMAND someone help you fix it, you are reliant on the goodwill of
 other users.  If they lose patience with your problem or run out of
 ideas, there's no obligation on them to stick with you. I had a
 non-standard setup with Farcry, and despite several days of working at
 it, with the assistance of several other users, I couldn't get it
 going in my setup before I reached decision time.   So I had to dump
 it.  If I'd bought and paid for it, I could have said you guys fix it
 so it works and dont whine to me about the cost.

And most commercial companies will politely refund your money. Of course,
I'm not generally buying enterprise software for big money with large
installation and support contracts. Nevertheless, I haven't had much luck
with that approach. Have you?

Ben Rogers
http://www.c4.net
v.508.240.0051
f.508.240.0057


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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Micha Schopman]

 It's the same with the open source CMS  Farcry.  If installation goes 
 well, it's obviously straightforward. If you hit a snag you can't 
 DEMAND someone help you fix it, you are reliant on the goodwill of 
 other users.  If they lose patience with your problem or run out of
 ideas, there's no obligation on them to stick with you. 

This is the same with a Macromedia product. You need to have a support
contract or else you're fucked.

Micha Schopman
Software Engineer

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 You are correct that support is currently dependent on 
 goodwill, but I'm fairly confident that when something is 
 broken in Dreamweaver, you will still be in the same boat. If 
 they can't offer a work around for you, MM most likely will 
 not do an update just for your problem. 
 
 Case in point, HomeSite doesn't support Unicode properly. 
 MM's solution is to edit in notepad and no longer save from 
 HomeSite when the BOM needs to be set to Unicode(ref:
 http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=t
 n_19059 ). I'm not entirely sure that kind of resolution 
 could be considered superior support.

I think this is a flawed comparison. Homesite is essentially a legacy
product. Dreamweaver is not.

 The ColdFusion community, in general, has repeatedly told MM 
 that they aren't satisfied with the DW solution for CF 
 development, and has repeatedly asked for HomeSite+ to be 
 improved and built upon, and MM has not done that, but 
 instead has not released a major version in roughly 6 years, 
 including not fixing issues like the above.

Is this really accurate? Who makes up this community exactly? I ask this
because I know plenty of CF developers who are using Dreamweaver and are
happy with it. I don't necessarily think this list is representative of the
CF community. Most CF developers I know aren't on it, for one thing.

 Alternatively they could add all the features of HomeSite to 
 Dreamweaver and make it work like HomeSite in certain areas 
 (divided folder/file view for example? support for CVS 
 possibly? How about SCCM support? ) And then we'd also be 
 better off. But instead we get neither, a gimped DW for a 
 HomeSite replacement, or a gimped HomeSite in various areas 
 (Unicode support), that isn't moving forward.

Have you submitted feature requests for these things? I admit that I've been
occasionally frustrated by some Dreamweaver features - I'd really like to
see a standard query builder, for one, and have asked (and will continue to
ask) for this over and over again - but they have been responsive on other
issues. I don't think there will be any significant revisions of Homesite,
though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Michael Dinowitz]

Happy with it? I know a number of CF developers not on this list who use DW
because they have to, but also use Homesite for their real coding work.
Personally, I can't open Dreamweaver for more than a minute before having to
close it and go back to Homesite.

As for community, this complaint has come up on the MM forums, the HoF
lists, non-HoF lists and at just about every CF conference that exists.
These places combined makes the CF community and while the entire community
is not upset with the loss of Homesite, a good portion of it is. 

 Is this really accurate? Who makes up this community exactly? I ask this
 because I know plenty of CF developers who are using Dreamweaver and are
 happy with it. I don't necessarily think this list is representative of
 the
 CF community. Most CF developers I know aren't on it, for one thing.



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Steve Brownlee]

 Is this really accurate? Who makes up this community exactly? 
 I ask this because I know plenty of CF developers who are using 
 Dreamweaver and are happy with it. 

I'm usually not one for joining in on these massive opinion threads, but I
was one of the converts to DW.  Initially I resisted it because the early
versions just didn't hack it compared to the old CF Studio, but with
Dreamweaver MX and later, I have absolutely no complaints and actually prefer
it over CF Studio.  Does it lack some conveniences?  Sure, all products do.
However, I'm able to do (almost) everything I could do in CF Studio, plus
some new features exist that make up for what got left behind.

I bet if most developers took the time to actually evaluate DW with a
completely open mind, a majority would switch.  I know that once I showed its
capabilities at my current employer, everyone switched almost immediately.

 I don't necessarily think this 
 list is representative of the CF community. Most CF developers 
 I know aren't on it, for one thing.

That's for sure.  I know at least 30 developers in this area and I'm the only
one - that I know of - who's on this list.

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 2). IMHO their getting to messy, to bloated, losing focus and 
 the politics that are natural with the big company with large 
 differsified product lines competing for limited resources 
 has with out a doubt stiffled the development of CF IDE. Big 
 time.  

Really? I think they're more focused than I can ever remember them being. As
much as I like CF, it's not their best or most important product. There are
alternatives to CF that aren't that bad. The thing that Macromedia has that
no one else has is Flash. There's nothing else like it right now, and it's
the sensible focus of their business. All of their new server products take
advantage of it, giving them product synergy like they've never had before.

 3). As for CFEclipse, our team knew that we were being 
 underserved by MM and after discovering CFEclipse we realized 
 just how much so.  Now, at least for me,  it's difficult to 
 really respect the ColdFusion Brand.  Notwithstanding the 
 fantastic advances with the CFMX server, they pretty much 
 left us out in the cold.

I don't really understand this at all. If you don't like Dreamweaver, that's
fine. No one is forcing you to use it. The beauty of working with
server-side products like CF is that you can use any development tools you
want to write your programs. What does any of this have to do with
respecting the ColdFusion Brand?

 4). The whole MM promise of RIA development with Flash and 
 Coldfusion.  Remember that.  OK who's doing that?  

We are.

 Somebody over at MM got too excited and decided to introduce 
 a new product line: Flex.  Good idea we needed an easier 
 development tool for RIA projects but Flex, for CF 
 developers, Who's kidding who? I feel comfortable saying that 
 Flex is consider by most CF developers as a new and different 
 product line that MM offers.  Just like Breeze, Contribute, 
 Authorware, Robo, there not really for us.  RIA was suppose 
 to be the fruits of CF and Flash, not a new thing in and of 
 itself.

Well, Flex IS a new and different product line. It's exponentially easier to
do Flash development with Flex than with Flash Remoting and CF by
themselves. Are you saying they should've let us continue to work harder
than we needed to build Flash RIAs? You can keep developing RIAs with CF and
Flash Remoting if you like - there's nothing to stop you.

But you're right. These products aren't specifically for CF developers.
They're for people who want to do the kinds of things that these products
let you do. What's wrong with that? Macromedia's job isn't really to make CF
programmers happy, it's to make good, useful products. Breeze, Contribute,
Captivate - these products are very good at what they do.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:05:09 -0500, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 But you're right. These products aren't specifically for CF developers.
 They're for people who want to do the kinds of things that these products
 let you do. What's wrong with that? Macromedia's job isn't really to make CF
 programmers happy, it's to make good, useful products. Breeze, Contribute,
 Captivate - these products are very good at what they do.

I have to say, totally off subject, that Mark Drew gave a breeze demo
yesterday. It was the first time I've seen a live breeze demo - it was
* amazing *. That is an awesome product. If there was like a white
board part of it it would be the perfect app. Great response time,
looked pretty - great job on that product :)

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 I have to say, totally off subject, that Mark Drew gave a 
 breeze demo yesterday. It was the first time I've seen a live 
 breeze demo - it was
 * amazing *. That is an awesome product. If there was like a 
 white board part of it it would be the perfect app. Great 
 response time, looked pretty - great job on that product :)

There is whiteboard functionality within Breeze, actually.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 Happy with it? I know a number of CF developers not on this 
 list who use DW because they have to, but also use Homesite 
 for their real coding work.

I know a lot of CF developers who use DW because they prefer it. Does that
prove anything? We can all produce anecdotal evidence, but none of us can
produce hard numbers I suspect.

 As for community, this complaint has come up on the MM 
 forums, the HoF lists, non-HoF lists and at just about every 
 CF conference that exists.
 These places combined makes the CF community and while the 
 entire community is not upset with the loss of Homesite, a 
 good portion of it is.

Most CF developers don't participate in any of these things, in my
experience. Many don't know or care about them. I do a lot of onsite
consulting, and when I mention these things I'm usually met by blank stares
or disinterest.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:53:38 -0500, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I have to say, totally off subject, that Mark Drew gave a
  breeze demo yesterday. It was the first time I've seen a live
  breeze demo - it was
  * amazing *. That is an awesome product. If there was like a
  white board part of it it would be the perfect app. Great
  response time, looked pretty - great job on that product :)
 
 There is whiteboard functionality within Breeze, actually.

It does? :-o

And it works on the Mac... right on

Makes me want to hold a meeting about something...

-- 
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Hi Dave,

The Unicode issue existed when 5.5 was released, it is not a flawed
comparison, it is demonstrative of my point about 'commercial' support, I
used it because it happened to be on my mind.

When I mentioned the community, I was thinking back to sitting a table at
lunch at MAX 2004 listening to a group of developers give DW a hard time and
asking for DW to have some of the functionality that made HomeSite superior
to a Macromedia representative. Further, that commentary was driven by
various comments by a group of over 50 CF developers in my area, many of
whom use DW but would rather use HomeSite.

I have submitted feature requests, the challenge is that DW is not a coder
tool, it is a designer tool. They have made significant changes in the
design area of the IDE, very nice changes to be sure. But there's been
marginal real focus on the needs of the hand coder.

I recognize that there probably won't be another HomeSite, however my
commentary is intended to elicit response and be visible to MM. If it turns
out that my assessment of dislike in general for DW for CFers is incorrect,
then I learn something :) If not, maybe MM will hear this time, or we'll
roll our own and stop looking to MM for that solution. Either way could be
an eventual win.

- Calvin



-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:50 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 You are correct that support is currently dependent on 
 goodwill, but I'm fairly confident that when something is 
 broken in Dreamweaver, you will still be in the same boat. If 
 they can't offer a work around for you, MM most likely will 
 not do an update just for your problem. 
 
 Case in point, HomeSite doesn't support Unicode properly. 
 MM's solution is to edit in notepad and no longer save from 
 HomeSite when the BOM needs to be set to Unicode(ref:
 http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=t
 n_19059 ). I'm not entirely sure that kind of resolution 
 could be considered superior support.

I think this is a flawed comparison. Homesite is essentially a legacy
product. Dreamweaver is not.

 The ColdFusion community, in general, has repeatedly told MM 
 that they aren't satisfied with the DW solution for CF 
 development, and has repeatedly asked for HomeSite+ to be 
 improved and built upon, and MM has not done that, but 
 instead has not released a major version in roughly 6 years, 
 including not fixing issues like the above.

Is this really accurate? Who makes up this community exactly? I ask this
because I know plenty of CF developers who are using Dreamweaver and are
happy with it. I don't necessarily think this list is representative of the
CF community. Most CF developers I know aren't on it, for one thing.

 Alternatively they could add all the features of HomeSite to 
 Dreamweaver and make it work like HomeSite in certain areas 
 (divided folder/file view for example? support for CVS 
 possibly? How about SCCM support? ) And then we'd also be 
 better off. But instead we get neither, a gimped DW for a 
 HomeSite replacement, or a gimped HomeSite in various areas 
 (Unicode support), that isn't moving forward.

Have you submitted feature requests for these things? I admit that I've been
occasionally frustrated by some Dreamweaver features - I'd really like to
see a standard query builder, for one, and have asked (and will continue to
ask) for this over and over again - but they have been responsive on other
issues. I don't think there will be any significant revisions of Homesite,
though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Tangorre, Michael]

 From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 At least, that's how I see it. If you think there really is a 
 good business case for major work to be done on HS+, let's 
 hear it. Or perhaps some other approach?

Your response is logical. I for one am not as passiontate about my IDE
choice as many others seem to be. Nevertheless I want an IDE that
supports my daily tasks (on average). Since no IDE will ever be able to
meet all my requirements, and DW has way too many features that I would
ever use, I go with Homesite+ and CFE. CFE will be the main IDE of
choice once I get used to it. Getting used to it is where a lot of
developers give in; they think since once plugin doesn't work how they
would like they are out of luck. How very wrong... While hunting down
all the plugins for CFE that I was interested in I had some good and bad
results with them, eventually weeding out the ones that were of no use
or little use to me and my daily tasks. The point is this, CFE is the
editor that has the potential to support what developers want since it
is open source. Everyone should stop bitching about Homesite and DW and
download eclipse and start making requests (or even contributing
yourself) to its' future growth. Through plugins, community
support/development the potential for CFE to become the #1 editor of
choice is definitely there, it will just take some time. Download it...
Give it a shot. It takes a little while to get used to but you should be
able to get what you need out of it sooner or later, unlike DW which
will never be less bloated since it supports mor ethan just the CF
community nor with Homesite+ which is going downhill.

Mike

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Nice write-up Sean!

For all my ranting and raving about DW today, I actually prefer it over
HomeSite for a number of reasons. Having said that, there are many areas
that DW falls short, I'll try to list some of the items that would make a
difference to me, and possibly to other long term HomeSite users (I've used
ColdFusion Studio 3 to HomeSite 5.5+, but I've also used DW since version 1,
and UltraDev when it was released up to and including DW 2004).

1) Dreamweaver's file panel is difficult to navigate because the files and
the folders are all nested together in a very small area. HomeSite and
Windows Explorer for example, divide the files and folders in an easy to use
fashion. Solution: Make an option to view the file/site structure in that
manner.

2) Combined with (1), is the interesting choice of not showing the full file
path in the title bar, or somewhere. Again, in HomeSite, you can see exactly
which file you are editing, but in DW, if you are looking at the same file
in both the dev server and the edition on your workstation, you CANNOT
easily tell which one is which. Solution: display the full filepath in the
titlebar, or another reasonable location, AND show the full filepath when
mousing over the document title tabs.

3) Having 2 file/site panels is a very nice feature. Keep in mind HomeSite
has 1 Project and 2 File panels!

4) Lack of support for Source Control systems, HomeSite supports VSS, CVS,
etc. And it appears that because HomeSite support SCC, it inherently
supports more Source Control systems without additional development by the
user.

5) Rigid customizability. HomeSite let you add icon groups, remove them, add
icons, re-arrange, etc. DW gives you Favorites area to do that in, and
that's it.

6) The HomeSite query builder was pretty decent to work in, put something
like that in.

7) Interactive debugging! That's really going to be more useful in the age
of OO with CF.

8) I miss the tree view that was in HomeSite (and also was in DW until MX I
think)

9) There's a number little annoying things missing, such as convert tags to
lowercase, a code sweeper/source formatting that understand comments and
'middle' tags (cfelse), go to end of tag hotkey, code collapse and so forth.

10) Improve performance even more!

Anyway, it does make sense that DW is a better business choice for MM, in
particular because it is cross-platform, but I think a RAD language is
definitely well served by having a RAD tool!

There's my 2 copper...

Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 1:29 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:49:22 -0500, Michael Dinowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 As for community, this complaint has come up on the MM forums, the HoF
 lists, non-HoF lists and at just about every CF conference that exists.
 These places combined makes the CF community and while the entire
community
 is not upset with the loss of Homesite, a good portion of it is.

You're right. This is a fairly long-standing issue and a large(?)
number of CFers are not happy with the MM party line on this. This is
a thorny issue with no really good resolution.

Let me just be crystal clear here that what I am about to say is my
opinion and may well not reflect MM's policy/plans/whatever. I'm not
in the tools division. I don't actually have much insight into MM's
future plans in that area. I just want to comment on what I perceive
as some of the possible business issues behind this issue, as I see
them, as a CF developer.

Furthmore, I've used DW, UltraDev, CF Studio, CFEclipse and He3. My
tool of choice was UltraDev until DWMX. I never liked CF Studio (and
now don't even have the option of using it since I'm on a Mac). These
days I use CFEclipse for most of my CF development and DW for all my
UI work.

So...

When MM acquired Allaire, MM inherited JRun Studio, CF Studio and
HomeSite which were three separate variants of the same Delphi code
base (Windows only). Oh, and Kawa. MM already had DW and UltraDev
(Windows and Mac; also variants of one code base). UltraDev was
effectively MM's offering for server scripting development. Looking at
this from MM's point of view, would you want to support five variants
of two code bases (plus Kawa), of which three (four?) were not
cross-platform? The UD functionality was effectively merged into DWMX.
JRun Studio was dropped, as was Kawa (lots of competition in the Java
IDE space so no money to be made there really, in my opinion). CF
Studio was renamed HomeSite+ and bundled with DW (meaning you could
now buy CF Studio for $100 less than it used to cost and you got DW
for free!).

A lot of CFers will never accept DW, no matter whether it eventually
supports everything HS+ does. Choice of IDE is a very personal and
often very passionate choice for a lot of people. They perceive DW
(rightly or wrongly) as bloatware because it does all

RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 The Unicode issue existed when 5.5 was released, it is not a 
 flawed comparison, it is demonstrative of my point about 
 'commercial' support, I used it because it happened to be 
 on my mind.

While that might be true, Homesite is still essentially a legacy product.
What exactly is new and improved in Homesite 5.5?

 I have submitted feature requests, the challenge is that DW 
 is not a coder tool, it is a designer tool. They have made 
 significant changes in the design area of the IDE, very nice 
 changes to be sure. But there's been marginal real focus on 
 the needs of the hand coder.

I think this distinction between hand coder and designer is part of the
problem here. As programming environments mature, it's natural to spend less
time writing code and more time using visual tools. If you're a Windows
programmer, you don't write the lines of code that figure out how things
will appear on the screen, you draw them out using Windows Forms from within
Visual Studio. You then write code as appropriate to bind to events that
occur to the objects within your forms. Does that make you a designer, or a
hand coder?

In my opinion, this is what Dreamweaver is becoming - a tool more like
Visual Studio than like emacs or vi. Further, I think that this is a good
thing.

But in my case, I'm not much of a designer, and I still find Dreamweaver to
be a productive environment for writing code. Case in point - the fantastic
find and replace dialog. There are certainly things that I don't like about
DW, and things that I'd like to see added, some of which are in Homesite,
but overall I think it's a good editor.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Russ]

At least, that's how I see it. If you think there really is a good
business case for major work to be done on HS+, let's hear it. Or
perhaps some other approach?

There was some talk on this list about making homesite opensource, so that
it can perhaps be turned into a project on sourceforge (I'm sure there are
still some Delphi programmers out there who would be willing to do
enhancements).  

I think in the least perhaps MM can release some pieces of code or standards
to make it easier for people to duplicate certain parts of Homesite+ in
CFEclipse (RDS comes to mind).  

I know it will probably eat a little bit away from MM's bottom line on
Dreamweaver, but like you said, if there are good UI's available for CF, it
might boost server sales.  And MM really needs to do something to compete
with the 'Big Boys' here.  Microsoft is basically giving away licenses to
Visual Studio .NET, there are many free Java Editors (such as eclipse), but
there aren't any great free CF Editors as far as I know.  MM needs to make
it easy for schools to teach CF without having to invest (a lot of) money.
They can do it with ASP and Java, but not with CF.  The developer version of
CF Server is great, but where is a development version of the IDE?

Russ


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:30:28 -0500, Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I think this distinction between hand coder and designer is part of the
 problem here. As programming environments mature, it's natural to spend less
 time writing code and more time using visual tools. If you're a Windows
 programmer, you don't write the lines of code that figure out how things
 will appear on the screen, you draw them out using Windows Forms from within
 Visual Studio. You then write code as appropriate to bind to events that
 occur to the objects within your forms. Does that make you a designer, or a
 hand coder?

I think hand coder may be a bad term. If I am writing a java bean, or
a cfc, the designer does nothing for me. Most times, I just use some
sort of template or predesinged thing  for the UI and add data
behind it - so often it's design once then write code behind it. In
that case there is a pretty definite distinction between design and
coding.
 
 In my opinion, this is what Dreamweaver is becoming - a tool more like
 Visual Studio than like emacs or vi. Further, I think that this is a good
 thing.

I can't really talk about .NETs auto made code, but as for things like
Java GUI desigers (and even DW a bit) the code they make by dragging
and dropping very from funky to horrid. The code tends to be sloppy
and inefficient. Not so much with DW - DW tends to just format things
funny IMO.

I would say that is a designer. If you know how to make a query, and a
form by hand, but prefer a visual tool - then you *clean up the code*
you are a hand coder. If you can't do the same things with or
without a visual tool, I think you are a designer++.

-- 
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Dave,

HomeSite 5.5+ introduced macros and parameterized snippets in specific.

The find and replace feature in DW is great! What's missing though, is the
ability to limit by file type (I don't need to search the PDFs in my
structure for Trim( !

As far as visual tools go, there's not that much for visual tools for CF in
the product. Conversely the CSS visual tools are the best in market. See the
difference in focus? If there were really great visual ways to develop CF
code in DW, that'd be beneficial too.

- Calvin


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Sean Corfield]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:10:31 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 1) Dreamweaver's file panel is difficult to navigate because the files and
 the folders are all nested together in a very small area.

Yes. Same with Eclipse although CFE has a File Explorer that mimics HS.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 2) Combined with (1), is the interesting choice of not showing the full file
 path in the title bar, or somewhere.

Yup, very annoying, agreed.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 3) Having 2 file/site panels is a very nice feature. Keep in mind HomeSite
 has 1 Project and 2 File panels!

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 4) Lack of support for Source Control systems, HomeSite supports VSS, CVS,

There are extensions for these for DW. I don't know how well they
work. It's also a long-standing enhancement request so...

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 5) Rigid customizability. HomeSite let you add icon groups, remove them, add
 icons, re-arrange, etc. DW gives you Favorites area to do that in, and
 that's it.

Hmm, well, extensions let you do a *lot* to the DW UI and in fact DW
is infinitely more customizable than HS. However, I take your point
about simple, point'n'click editing of certain UI elements so...

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 6) The HomeSite query builder was pretty decent to work in, put something
 like that in.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 7) Interactive debugging! That's really going to be more useful in the age
 of OO with CF.

OK, this really has nothing to do with DW and everything to do with
CFMX. CFMX does not support debugging right now.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request for CF

 8) I miss the tree view that was in HomeSite (and also was in DW until MX I
 think)

Tree view?

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 9) There's a number little annoying things missing, such as convert tags to
 lowercase, a code sweeper/source formatting that understand comments and
 'middle' tags (cfelse), go to end of tag hotkey, code collapse and so forth.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 10) Improve performance even more!

I'm always happy to see DW go faster!

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is
-- 
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 As far as visual tools go, there's not that much for visual 
 tools for CF in the product. Conversely the CSS visual tools 
 are the best in market. See the difference in focus? If there 
 were really great visual ways to develop CF code in DW, 
 that'd be beneficial too.

Given that CFML code doesn't have any visual interface - only the HTML that
is generated by CFML does - what sort of visual tools would you want to see?

As far as it goes, though, there are some tools in there that you might not
use or be aware of. Some of the Application objects are pretty extensive
(although I don't really like most of them). Did you know that in design
view, you can click on a field from a recordset and apply formatting using
the appropriate CFML function without even knowing the function, by using
the Bindings panel? How about that you can click the Dynamic button to
bind a SELECT to a recordset? Those are the sorts of things I think of as
far as visual tools go. To be perfectly honest, I don't use those sorts of
things that much outside of a classroom, since it takes me less time to type
code than to use the mouse, but that's more a matter of personal preference
than anything else - the code that's generated is identical in many cases.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Dave, as I mentioned before, I've been using DW since 1.

I'm fairly familiar with DW, and have even written extensions (for corporate
internal use) to solve some problems - such as the lack of the full file
path + no full file path in the window list. I've even written an extension
to write information about a file to a database requiring minimum user
interaction for a change management solution.

However, I still find that DW lacks a great deal that it should have since
it is the declared ColdFusion editor of choice by the maker of ColdFusion.

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:31 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 As far as visual tools go, there's not that much for visual 
 tools for CF in the product. Conversely the CSS visual tools 
 are the best in market. See the difference in focus? If there 
 were really great visual ways to develop CF code in DW, 
 that'd be beneficial too.

Given that CFML code doesn't have any visual interface - only the HTML that
is generated by CFML does - what sort of visual tools would you want to see?

As far as it goes, though, there are some tools in there that you might not
use or be aware of. Some of the Application objects are pretty extensive
(although I don't really like most of them). Did you know that in design
view, you can click on a field from a recordset and apply formatting using
the appropriate CFML function without even knowing the function, by using
the Bindings panel? How about that you can click the Dynamic button to
bind a SELECT to a recordset? Those are the sorts of things I think of as
far as visual tools go. To be perfectly honest, I don't use those sorts of
things that much outside of a classroom, since it takes me less time to type
code than to use the mouse, but that's more a matter of personal preference
than anything else - the code that's generated is identical in many cases.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!




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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Sean,

Thanks for the links!

The Tree View I'm referring to is actually called the Tag Inspector in
HomeSite and lists all the tags in a CFML or HTML document and displays them
in the Tag Inspector. In HomeSite, you can filter the tags to only show
CFML, or only HTML, or only XHTML, etc. Additionally selecting the tags in
the Tag Inspector would also select the tag in the code view, and allow you
to edit the attributes in a way that was similar to the Property Inspector
in Dreamweaver. You could select both the opening and the closing tag to
quickly find a closing tag for an item, and so forth. This used to exist in
Dreamweaver (without the filtering), but was removed a few versions back.

I found it pretty useful and miss it a great deal...

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 3:09 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:10:31 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 1) Dreamweaver's file panel is difficult to navigate because the files and
 the folders are all nested together in a very small area.

Yes. Same with Eclipse although CFE has a File Explorer that mimics HS.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 2) Combined with (1), is the interesting choice of not showing the full
file
 path in the title bar, or somewhere.

Yup, very annoying, agreed.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 3) Having 2 file/site panels is a very nice feature. Keep in mind HomeSite
 has 1 Project and 2 File panels!

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 4) Lack of support for Source Control systems, HomeSite supports VSS, CVS,

There are extensions for these for DW. I don't know how well they
work. It's also a long-standing enhancement request so...

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 5) Rigid customizability. HomeSite let you add icon groups, remove them,
add
 icons, re-arrange, etc. DW gives you Favorites area to do that in, and
 that's it.

Hmm, well, extensions let you do a *lot* to the DW UI and in fact DW
is infinitely more customizable than HS. However, I take your point
about simple, point'n'click editing of certain UI elements so...

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 6) The HomeSite query builder was pretty decent to work in, put something
 like that in.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 7) Interactive debugging! That's really going to be more useful in the age
 of OO with CF.

OK, this really has nothing to do with DW and everything to do with
CFMX. CFMX does not support debugging right now.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request for CF

 8) I miss the tree view that was in HomeSite (and also was in DW until MX
I
 think)

Tree view?

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 9) There's a number little annoying things missing, such as convert tags
to
 lowercase, a code sweeper/source formatting that understand comments and
 'middle' tags (cfelse), go to end of tag hotkey, code collapse and so
forth.

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is

 10) Improve performance even more!

I'm always happy to see DW go faster!

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish - submit an enhancement request
http://www.macromedia.com/go/beta - apply to join the next DW beta,
whenever that is
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
Got Gmail? -- I have 5 invites to give away!

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

The only things I can think of aren't really visual tools. Things like the
Components and Web Services introspection are really nice. It would be nice
to have a way to view other elements in a similar fashion. A drop down of
cffunctions would be nice perhaps (there's one for JavaScript functions in
the Code Inspector...) Stuff like that...

Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:48 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 Dave, as I mentioned before, I've been using DW since 1.
 
 I'm fairly familiar with DW, and have even written extensions 
 (for corporate internal use) to solve some problems - such as 
 the lack of the full file path + no full file path in the 
 window list. I've even written an extension to write 
 information about a file to a database requiring minimum user 
 interaction for a change management solution.

Well, you're a better man than I am if you were able to put up with
Dreamweaver 1-4. Yecch.

 However, I still find that DW lacks a great deal that it 
 should have since it is the declared ColdFusion editor of 
 choice by the maker of ColdFusion.

I agree completely. However, I would make the same statement about
Homesite+. I'm genuinely curious about what visual tools you'd like to see
added to DW for working with CFML specifically.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!




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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Sean Corfield]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:17:05 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 However, I still find that DW lacks a great deal that it should have since
 it is the declared ColdFusion editor of choice by the maker of ColdFusion.

Bzzzt! Nope. Not the editor. I think you'll find the official line
is that it's meant to be a ColdFusion editor and that it's meant to
have enough functionality that CFers don't actually *need* anything
beyond DW (they may *want* more but that's a different story). In
other words, if you're building a web site and using CF, you *could*
use DW as your only IDE.

Read Ben Forta's CFDJ article on Dreamweaver:

http://www.sys-con.com/coldfusion/article.cfm?id=696

So, is Dreamweaver MX 2004 the best tool for ColdFusion developers,
and if I was asked to say so now would I be able to do so? I think I'd
have to answer that with a qualified possibly. It is probably not
the best tool for all ColdFusion developers, but for many it is. Is
Dreamweaver MX 2004 a replacement for ColdFusion Studio? Absolutely
not (and I know that some Macromedia sales reps spin Dreamweaver that
way, and they're wrong). If it was, we'd not include HomeSite+ with
every copy of Dreamweaver bought, would we? The reason we provide both
products is that there is value in both, and as a ColdFusion developer
you get to pick which works best for you, using one or both as suits
you best. (Yes, if you are a Windows Dreamweaver user, then you
already have a copy of HomeSite+ that you may use too; it's included
with Dreamweaver but needs to be installed separately.)
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
Got Gmail? -- I have 5 invites to give away!

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[dave]

my only beef with dw 2004 is the inability for linux support :(

[quote]Yes, if you are a Windows Dreamweaver user, then you
already have a copy of HomeSite+ that you may use too[/quote]
funny thing is that u can easily run homesite on linux though

a feature that would be nice though is during install to have control over what 
all is installed. say u want cfm, jsp, html, css  XHTML support but not things 
such as .net or php, would that help its bloatedness? 
quite frankly, a lot of the complaints i see are solved if they look like 
having the full address in title bar, several extensions 4 that. and keyboard 
shortcuts, can be done.
even old dogs need to learn new tricks ;)

also, i think the extension manager needs to at least have a check all 
feature, seriously a pita when doing updates

-- Original Message --
From: Sean Corfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Date:  Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:30:56 -0800

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:17:05 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 However, I still find that DW lacks a great deal that it should have since
 it is the declared ColdFusion editor of choice by the maker of ColdFusion.

Bzzzt! Nope. Not the editor. I think you'll find the official line
is that it's meant to be a ColdFusion editor and that it's meant to
have enough functionality that CFers don't actually *need* anything
beyond DW (they may *want* more but that's a different story). In
other words, if you're building a web site and using CF, you *could*
use DW as your only IDE.

Read Ben Forta's CFDJ article on Dreamweaver:

http://www.sys-con.com/coldfusion/article.cfm?id=696

So, is Dreamweaver MX 2004 the best tool for ColdFusion developers,
and if I was asked to say so now would I be able to do so? I think I'd
have to answer that with a qualified possibly. It is probably not
the best tool for all ColdFusion developers, but for many it is. Is
Dreamweaver MX 2004 a replacement for ColdFusion Studio? Absolutely
not (and I know that some Macromedia sales reps spin Dreamweaver that
way, and they're wrong). If it was, we'd not include HomeSite+ with
every copy of Dreamweaver bought, would we? The reason we provide both
products is that there is value in both, and as a ColdFusion developer
you get to pick which works best for you, using one or both as suits
you best. (Yes, if you are a Windows Dreamweaver user, then you
already have a copy of HomeSite+ that you may use too; it's included
with Dreamweaver but needs to be installed separately.)
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
Got Gmail? -- I have 5 invites to give away!

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood



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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Geoff Bowers]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 09:40:45 -0800, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have to say, totally off subject, that Mark Drew gave a breeze demo
 yesterday. It was the first time I've seen a live breeze demo - it was
 * amazing *. That is an awesome product. If there was like a white
 board part of it it would be the perfect app. Great response time,
 looked pretty - great job on that product :)

There is a white board! And its pretty cool.. you can overlay the
whiteboard over virtually any sort of content.

-- geoff
On the road via GMail.
http://www.fullasagoog.com/

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Shawn]

My two cents worth.

Better Linux support.  It's nice that CFMX can run on Red Hat, but Red Hat is 
too bloated (IMO) for server use (not talking about the enterprise RH - which 
most of us don't use and I have no experience with).  There are better 
distros for servers - Gentoo, BSD, etc.  Getting CFMX running on them is NOT 
a simple task.  Even just a document that lists what dependencies are 
required - just where does the installer expect to find the JRE, etc - so we 
can create the necessary symlinks, and/or install the needed packages.

(Disclaimer:  It's been about a year since I tried to get CFMX running on a 
Gentoo server with no luck.  Things might have changed since then...)

Linux support across the board would be great.  In the past year or so, I've 
switched exclusively to a Linux desktop (due to a number of issues with 
windows) - so much for getting Dreamweaver running.  Unless I want to use 
Wine (which causes performance issues on my system), or a virtual environment 
like VMWare - which defeats the purpose.  There is a demand for a *nix 
equivalent app like Dreamweaver - and it doesn't even need to be open source.  
If Macromedia doesn't supply it, an open source project will, and then 
Macromedia will loose the momentum on Linux.

My thoughts

Shawn

On Wednesday 12 January 2005 01:23, Mark Drew wrote:
 I think Flex pricing is too high. RIA's are a new technology in the
 sense of customer buy in. There isnt yet the market must have demand
 for them.

 If it was priced alongside with CFMX as a server it would be an easier
 sell.

 You have to have a good application in mind, and until these
 applications have propagated enough (i.e.. Amazon suddenly goes RIA)
 clients wont be asking for them but us the developers offering them.


 Bring down the price, make a cut down (ish) version, a non enterprise
 version (whatever that would ACTUALLY mean) and let the clients get a
 taste for it

 Just my 0.02 Euros worth

 Mark Drew

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

That's a big if. And if the application/business logic layer is only 6k per
server - on this list, it's still a significant chunk and I believe far too
much. 

6k would have been much more along the lines of what I would have imagined
to be reasonable.

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:57 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for 
 presentation layer only is nuts!

Really? How about if it saves several months of developer time? (Which I
think it would, for most complex Flash client applications.) It doesn't take
things like this long to pay for themselves.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[RADEMAKERS Tanguy]

Here in Europe it's 14,000 EUR = ~18,000 USD. At that price it would be
worth physically going to the US to buy a copy, except then i guess MM
wouldn't support it. That kind of pricing policy sticks in my throat.

/t


-Original Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:53 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for 
presentation layer
only is nuts!

-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:34 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[snip]
Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.
[snip]

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Paul Malan]

Speaking of RIA/Flex, has anybody here experimented much with Laszlo? 
I'm curious to see how it will stack up.

http://www.laszlosystems.com/developers/

-Paul

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:24:29 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here in Europe it's 14,000 EUR = ~18,000 USD. At that price it would be
 worth physically going to the US to buy a copy, except then i guess MM
 wouldn't support it. That kind of pricing policy sticks in my throat.
 
 /t
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:53 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for
 presentation layer
 only is nuts!
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:34 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 [snip]
 Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
 the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.
 [snip]
 
 

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

From what I understand it is more complex to work with and creates larger
file sizes. Also the last version I looked at didn't support Unicode.

Conversely how much of a difference these items are, and how much of a
difference the Unicode matters will be dependent on the shop evaluating.

The output/demos I've seen have been pretty sharp looking!

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Paul Malan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:33 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Speaking of RIA/Flex, has anybody here experimented much with Laszlo? 
I'm curious to see how it will stack up.

http://www.laszlosystems.com/developers/

-Paul

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:24:29 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here in Europe it's 14,000 EUR = ~18,000 USD. At that price it would be
 worth physically going to the US to buy a copy, except then i guess MM
 wouldn't support it. That kind of pricing policy sticks in my throat.
 
 /t
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:53 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for
 presentation layer
 only is nuts!
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:34 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 [snip]
 Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
 the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.
 [snip]
 
 



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[RADEMAKERS Tanguy]

My understanding (from searching the web, haven't tried it yet) is that
Laszlo supports Flash 5 whereas Flex supports Flash 7. Having said that,
a little bird told me yesterday that Flex only supports actionscript 1,
not 2.

/t 

-Original Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 3:54 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

From what I understand it is more complex to work with and 
creates larger
file sizes. Also the last version I looked at didn't support Unicode.

Conversely how much of a difference these items are, and how much of a
difference the Unicode matters will be dependent on the shop 
evaluating.

The output/demos I've seen have been pretty sharp looking!

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Paul Malan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 9:33 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Speaking of RIA/Flex, has anybody here experimented much with Laszlo? 
I'm curious to see how it will stack up.

http://www.laszlosystems.com/developers/

-Paul

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:24:29 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here in Europe it's 14,000 EUR = ~18,000 USD. At that price 
it would be
 worth physically going to the US to buy a copy, except then 
i guess MM
 wouldn't support it. That kind of pricing policy sticks in my throat.
 
 /t
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:53 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for
 presentation layer
 only is nuts!
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:34 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 [snip]
 Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started 
ranting about
 the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.
 [snip]
 
 





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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)]

Flex supports AS2 AFAIK.




This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Oriel House, 26 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DL, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is
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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:58:46 -0700, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My two cents worth.
 
 Better Linux support.  It's nice that CFMX can run on Red Hat, but Red Hat is
 too bloated (IMO) for server use (not talking about the enterprise RH - which
 most of us don't use and I have no experience with).  There are better
 distros for servers - Gentoo, BSD, etc.  Getting CFMX running on them is NOT
 a simple task.  Even just a document that lists what dependencies are
 required - just where does the installer expect to find the JRE, etc - so we
 can create the necessary symlinks, and/or install the needed packages.

I agree and throw in the Mac too. I got BlueDragon to work with
linux/apache on Debain by following their instructions on how to
install on a non-red hat box - mostly just making some symlinks. MX
could do the same. And the stand alone server install on Mac was an
installer - double click server - nice

 Linux support across the board would be great.  In the past year or so, I've
 switched exclusively to a Linux desktop (due to a number of issues with
 windows) - so much for getting Dreamweaver running.  Unless I want to use
 Wine (which causes performance issues on my system), or a virtual environment
 like VMWare - which defeats the purpose.  There is a demand for a *nix
 equivalent app like Dreamweaver - and it doesn't even need to be open source.
 If Macromedia doesn't supply it, an open source project will, and then
 Macromedia will loose the momentum on Linux.

http://www.cfeclipse.org if you havent heard...

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:24:29 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here in Europe it's 14,000 EUR = ~18,000 USD. At that price it would be
 worth physically going to the US to buy a copy, except then i guess MM
 wouldn't support it. That kind of pricing policy sticks in my throat.

Just to put this in perspective, you could either buy 1 Flex server,
or 24 Mac Minis - h that would be a cool cluster :-o

Let's see, re tool my whole IT department * 3 or...

(BTW the reason people get bent over the price is because of demand
don't cha know ;-D)
-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dick Applebaum]

On Jan 12, 2005, at 8:16 AM, Rob wrote:

 On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:58:46 -0700, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 My two cents worth.

 Better Linux support.  It's nice that CFMX can run on Red Hat, but 
 Red Hat is
 too bloated (IMO) for server use (not talking about the enterprise RH 
 - which
 most of us don't use and I have no experience with).  There are better
 distros for servers - Gentoo, BSD, etc.  Getting CFMX running on them 
 is NOT
 a simple task.  Even just a document that lists what dependencies are
 required - just where does the installer expect to find the JRE, etc 
 - so we
 can create the necessary symlinks, and/or install the needed packages.

 I agree and throw in the Mac too. I got BlueDragon to work with
 linux/apache on Debain by following their instructions on how to
 install on a non-red hat box - mostly just making some symlinks. MX
 could do the same. And the stand alone server install on Mac was an
 installer - double click server - nice

You oughtta' see a BDJ2ee install/deploy on the Mac (or Win for that 
matter).

Quite a complex process... we call it copy/paste... takes 15 seconds 
(or so)


Dick



 Linux support across the board would be great.  In the past year or 
 so, I've
 switched exclusively to a Linux desktop (due to a number of issues 
 with
 windows) - so much for getting Dreamweaver running.  Unless I want to 
 use
 Wine (which causes performance issues on my system), or a virtual 
 environment
 like VMWare - which defeats the purpose.  There is a demand for a *nix
 equivalent app like Dreamweaver - and it doesn't even need to be open 
 source.
 If Macromedia doesn't supply it, an open source project will, and then
 Macromedia will loose the momentum on Linux.

 http://www.cfeclipse.org if you havent heard...

 -- 
 ~Blog~
 http://www.robrohan.com
 ~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
 http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
 ~open source xslt IDE~
 http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

 

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[RADEMAKERS Tanguy]

It's not the price that bothers me - i don't pay for software, my
customers do - it's the price difference. 

As for this discrepancy being caused by demand... are you saying there's
a much higher demand for flex in Europe than in the US? Nonsense. Part
of the difference is caused by tax and a higher cost of doing business,
but part of it is just MM sticking it to European customers plain and
simple. They're not alone: pretty much every software product i can
think of costs more in Europe than in the US.

/t



-Original Message-
From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:23 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:24:29 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here in Europe it's 14,000 EUR = ~18,000 USD. At that price 
it would be
 worth physically going to the US to buy a copy, except then 
i guess MM
 wouldn't support it. That kind of pricing policy sticks in my throat.

Just to put this in perspective, you could either buy 1 Flex server,
or 24 Mac Minis - h that would be a cool cluster :-o

Let's see, re tool my whole IT department * 3 or...

(BTW the reason people get bent over the price is because of demand
don't cha know ;-D)
-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net



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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:18:13 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
 As for this discrepancy being caused by demand... are you saying there's
 a much higher demand for flex in Europe than in the US? Nonsense. 

Nah, I am saying the level of money you need to get Flex is out of
reach of all the people who want it - wherever they are in the world.
What I see is the people who want it, can't afford it and I don't see
many Flex enabled sites out there so those who can buy it don't seem
to be (I have no idea of the actual numbers). Basically, they have a
customer base, but they refuse to sell it to that base, which I think
is retarded.

Part
 of the difference is caused by tax and a higher cost of doing business,
 but part of it is just MM sticking it to European customers plain and
 simple. They're not alone: pretty much every software product i can
 think of costs more in Europe than in the US.

Well you know it costs a *lot* to ship those 1s and 0s over sea's.
Seriously though, I think its much of the same as the Euro (and the
pound) are kicking the heck out of the dollar - you must have more
money right? hehehe

Cheers
-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Stacy Young]

Yep, does.


-Original Message-
From: Robertson-Ravo, Neil (RX)
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 10:14 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Flex supports AS2 AFAIK.




This e-mail is from Reed Exhibitions (Oriel House, 26 The Quadrant,
Richmond, Surrey, TW9 1DL, United Kingdom), a division of Reed Business,
Registered in England, Number 678540.  It contains information which is
confidential and may also be privileged.  It is for the exclusive use of
the
intended recipient(s).  If you are not the intended recipient(s) please
note
that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or
the
information in it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you
have
received this communication in error please return it to the sender or
call
our switchboard on +44 (0) 20 89107910.  The opinions expressed within
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communication are not necessarily those expressed by Reed Exhibitions.
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[RADEMAKERS Tanguy]

It costs a lot of money because it is aimed at the enterprise space -
where two rules apply:

1) Almost nobody pays full price. Companies buying this kind of stuff
have purchasing departments to beat the price down, and usually buy
several licenses for several products, not to mention things like
support and consulting,  so they get all kinds of discounts. Flex is in
the same pricing area as weblogic, oracle, all that kind of stuff.

2) No matter what the software and hardware cost, it's nothing combined
to the people. I've seen small - well, medium sized (5-8 people) -
projects, and calculated that they were costing more than fifty thousand
euros a month, just in manpower. 

So basically you get imaginary number marketing. Is it worth 12k (let
alone 18k) USD? Who knows. The real question is.. is this the most
appropriate way to sell flex? As you pointed out, putting this product
out of the reach of their most vocal proponents might not be a brilliant
idea...

/t

-Original Message-
From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 6:46 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:18:13 +0100, RADEMAKERS Tanguy
 As for this discrepancy being caused by demand... are you 
saying there's
 a much higher demand for flex in Europe than in the US? Nonsense. 

Nah, I am saying the level of money you need to get Flex is out of
reach of all the people who want it - wherever they are in the world.
What I see is the people who want it, can't afford it and I don't see
many Flex enabled sites out there so those who can buy it don't seem
to be (I have no idea of the actual numbers). Basically, they have a
customer base, but they refuse to sell it to that base, which I think
is retarded.

Part
 of the difference is caused by tax and a higher cost of 
doing business,
 but part of it is just MM sticking it to European customers plain and
 simple. They're not alone: pretty much every software product i can
 think of costs more in Europe than in the US.

Well you know it costs a *lot* to ship those 1s and 0s over sea's.
Seriously though, I think its much of the same as the Euro (and the
pound) are kicking the heck out of the dollar - you must have more
money right? hehehe

Cheers
-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net



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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Gel .]

Are you implying that because of Eclipse's entry into the marketplace, 
Macromedia will not be updating Dreamweaver MX to fix the bugs and add better 
functionality?

As far as I can see, Eclipse doesn't replace MX, it seeks to replace Homesite 
and CF Studio perhaps.

And regardless of how good a developer you are, having a useful, functional IDE 
helps you immensely when coding and designing an application. Any good 
developer operating with deadlines in the real world knows that.

 

 Still, I understand MM's stance that once open-source candidates 
 emerge in the category, it becomes a difficult if not impossible 
 proposition to invest in proprietary software to compete in the space. 
 

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Mark Drew]

I presume you mean cfeclipse ?

MD


On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:51:17 -0400, Gel. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Are you implying that because of Eclipse's entry into the marketplace, 
 Macromedia will not be updating Dreamweaver MX to fix the bugs and add better 
 functionality?
 
 As far as I can see, Eclipse doesn't replace MX, it seeks to replace Homesite 
 and CF Studio perhaps.
 
 And regardless of how good a developer you are, having a useful, functional 
 IDE helps you immensely when coding and designing an application. Any good 
 developer operating with deadlines in the real world knows that.
 
 
  Still, I understand MM's stance that once open-source candidates
  emerge in the category, it becomes a difficult if not impossible
  proposition to invest in proprietary software to compete in the space.
 
 
 

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:51:17 -0400, Gel. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Are you implying that because of Eclipse's entry into the marketplace, 
 Macromedia will not be updating Dreamweaver MX to fix the bugs and add better 
 functionality?
 

I don't have any affiliation with MM, but I can pretty solidly state
that that assertion is crazy talk - if some one was indeed implying
that.

 As far as I can see, Eclipse doesn't replace MX, it seeks to replace Homesite 
 and CF Studio perhaps.
 

I am assuming you are talking about cfeclipse - Our main focus (Spike
please chime in if I am way off)  was to create an environment that is
awesome for the hand coder. Somewhere you can compile a cfx tag,
then start the server with one click, and write a cfc around it. Most
of the developers that have worked on it were / are CFStudio fans so
that does show through, but we are not specifically going after people
who love dreamweaver. The people who dislike dreamweaver, need to have
java at their finger tips, or are used to enterprise software but
still want to use cfml might want to check it out. (Eclipse is
enterprise level and CFEclipse is getting there)

 And regardless of how good a developer you are, having a useful, functional 
 IDE helps you immensely when coding and designing an application. Any good 
 developer operating with deadlines in the real world knows that.

Its true that good tools help, but in the end would you rather have 3
really good coders using notepad or 3 half ass coders using a million
dollar IDE on your team?

  Still, I understand MM's stance that once open-source candidates
  emerge in the category, it becomes a difficult if not impossible
  proposition to invest in proprietary software to compete in the space.
 

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Eclipse + CFEclipse is eclipsing any offer from Macromedia in terms of truly
supporting ColdFusion.

Every time I fire up WSAD for Java development for WebSphere, or even
Eclipse, I shake my head at the whole DW/HomeSite/CF Studio debacle.

- Calvin

-Original Message-
From: Mark Drew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:57 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

I presume you mean cfeclipse ?

MD


On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:51:17 -0400, Gel. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Are you implying that because of Eclipse's entry into the marketplace,
Macromedia will not be updating Dreamweaver MX to fix the bugs and add
better functionality?
 
 As far as I can see, Eclipse doesn't replace MX, it seeks to replace
Homesite and CF Studio perhaps.
 
 And regardless of how good a developer you are, having a useful,
functional IDE helps you immensely when coding and designing an application.
Any good developer operating with deadlines in the real world knows that.
 
 
  Still, I understand MM's stance that once open-source candidates
  emerge in the category, it becomes a difficult if not impossible
  proposition to invest in proprietary software to compete in the space.
 
 
 



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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Mike Kear]

Calvin not quite.   CFEclipse, I can see, is a terrific development,
but as I found to my cost, if installation doesnt go right, it's very
very difficult to fix.Support is dependent on the ample goodwill
of the people developing it,  but still there is no obligation on
anyone to make sure it all works.

This is no criticism of the folks who are developing the CFEclipse
product, but I found it difficult to download (It took more than an
hour to start downloading by the time i negotiated the maze of
sourceforge) and then installation didn't go perfectly - I wasn't sure
which of the 45 files i was supposed to be downloading, and even then
it wasnt a fullly bundled package.   So.  having a problematic
download and installation, everything went downhill from there.

Several of the patient and helpful people working on CFEclipse tried
to help, but unlike a paid-for package like StudioMX, I had no right
to DEMAND support.  I could not insist on whatever it took to get it
all going properly for me.  IN the end i had to just cross it off my
list as another
probably-good-product-i-have-to-have-another-go-at-one-day.

That's the difference between a user-supported open source application
and a fully commercial paid-for app.

In the case of CFEclipse, I can see if it all goes well, it's a very
versatile and developer-oriented product.  If it doesnt all go well
it's a bloody nightmare.

It's the same with the open source CMS  Farcry.  If installation goes
well, it's obviously straightforward. If you hit a snag you can't
DEMAND someone help you fix it, you are reliant on the goodwill of
other users.  If they lose patience with your problem or run out of
ideas, there's no obligation on them to stick with you. I had a
non-standard setup with Farcry, and despite several days of working at
it, with the assistance of several other users, I couldn't get it
going in my setup before I reached decision time.   So I had to dump
it.  If I'd bought and paid for it, I could have said you guys fix it
so it works and dont whine to me about the cost.


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:37:45 -0500, Calvin Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Eclipse + CFEclipse is eclipsing any offer from Macromedia in terms of truly
 supporting ColdFusion.
 
 Every time I fire up WSAD for Java development for WebSphere, or even
 Eclipse, I shake my head at the whole DW/HomeSite/CF Studio debacle.
 
 - Calvin


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Robert Munn]

Mike's experience is exactly what I am talking about in terms of there being an 
opportunity for MM to ride the open source wave and build a position for a 
revenue-generating product based on Eclipse. The RichPalette folks are making a 
go of it, and if MM isn't watching closely they may just wake up one day a 
couple of years down the road and find that He3 or some other Eclipse-based 
product has become the IDE of choice for building ColdFusion apps. 

I agree with Jim's earlier point that IBM (largely a services company with vast 
resources) is different than Macromedia, which relies heavily on licensing for 
revenue at this point. But MM still has to play in the market, which means 
dealing with open source. Five years from now Eclipse variants will be a LOT 
more mature and will either be a direct threat to revenue or a platform for 
growth, IMO.

Calvin not quite.   CFEclipse, I can see, is a terrific development,
but as I found to my cost, if installation doesnt go right, it's very
very difficult to fix.Support is dependent on the ample goodwill
of the people developing it,  but still there is no obligation on
anyone to make sure it all works.

This is no criticism of the folks who are developing the CFEclipse
product, but I found it difficult to download (It took more than an
hour to start downloading by the time i negotiated the maze of
sourceforge) and then installation didn't go perfectly - I wasn't sure
which of the 45 files i was supposed to be downloading, and even then
it wasnt a fullly bundled package.   So.  having a problematic
download and installation, everything went downhill from there.

Several of the patient and helpful people working on CFEclipse tried
to help, but unlike a paid-for package like StudioMX, I had no right
to DEMAND support.  I could not insist on whatever it took to get it
all going properly for me.  IN the end i had to just cross it off my
list as another
probably-good-product-i-have-to-have-another-go-at-one-day.

That's the difference between a user-supported open source application
and a fully commercial paid-for app.


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Thomas Chiverton]

On Monday 10 Jan 2005 17:46 pm, Dave Watts wrote:
 How exactly is WebDAV any more or less secure than RDS? Both can be
 protected with SSL. Both let you manipulate the filesystem through HTTP
 requests.

Unless anything has changed, RDS exposes everything to everyone, with full 
permissions.
WebDAV doesn't.

Just of the top of my head, and yes, I wouldn't want anything except CVS 
updating our CF codebase :-)

-- 
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Advanced ColdFusion Programmer
Tel: +44 (0)1749 834900
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

Yea, I wish that sandbox could be used in conjunction with RDS... didn't it
used to?

-Original Message-
From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:06 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Agreed. We don't let anyone touch the production boxes at all. They get
synced by an admin from test.

One thing RDS does that WebDav doesn't (afaik) is expose every datasource on
the box to every user, regardless of sandboxing. That's why RDS is disabled
on all of our shared boxes (dev, test and prod).

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 4:24 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?

It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow people to
edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.




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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[James Holmes]

Yes, as per my poor recollection, in CF 5 the sitemider security stuff
allowed multiple RDS passwords to tie into separate sandboxes. The whole
thing was rather complicated though.

-Original Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 7:18 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Yea, I wish that sandbox could be used in conjunction with RDS... didn't it
used to?

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Burns, John D]

I wish that RDS allowed user accounts or something like that for greater
flexibility.  However, I do agree with Dave Watts that anything that
allows HTTP modification of files on my server makes me leary.  I
wouldn't allow something like that on a production box, though on
development it would be nice to have additional flexibility. 


John Burns
Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer
AI-ES Aeronautics, Web Developer

-Original Message-
From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:18 AM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Yea, I wish that sandbox could be used in conjunction with RDS... didn't
it used to?

-Original Message-
From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:06 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

Agreed. We don't let anyone touch the production boxes at all. They get
synced by an admin from test.

One thing RDS does that WebDav doesn't (afaik) is expose every
datasource on the box to every user, regardless of sandboxing. That's
why RDS is disabled on all of our shared boxes (dev, test and prod).

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 4:24
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?

It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow
people to edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.






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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Adrocknaphobia]

You what bothers me about MM? Nothin. Well except Generator, and I
swore a blood oath to hold that against them for atleast a decade.

Outside of that.. DW is fine. You know its the skills that make a
developer, not the IDE.  Seriously... how long are you going to
continue to use an IDE that was written in Delphi? New trick old dog?
Too comfy?

Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.

They turned CF into an Enterprise application server when it was was
gettting very close to becoming legacy keeping your butts employed.

Breeze rocks. Period.

Flash is nice.

JRun is pretty a good J2EE server (for the cost).

Yeah! Whats goin' on Captivate! Your little brother RoboDemo sucked,
but you make Camtasia look like a little girly man.

Umm... am I forgeting anyone in my call out?

Oh yeah.. Contribute and Flash paper... v1 not so good WPS... hott!

Actually the only thing I hate about MM is those god darn dataDirect
drivers for Oracle. Single handly ruining my day.. every damn day.
Damn you dataDirect.. damn you straight to...


On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:44:52 -0500, Burns, John D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I wish that RDS allowed user accounts or something like that for greater
 flexibility.  However, I do agree with Dave Watts that anything that
 allows HTTP modification of files on my server makes me leary.  I
 wouldn't allow something like that on a production box, though on
 development it would be nice to have additional flexibility.
 
 John Burns
 Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer
 AI-ES Aeronautics, Web Developer
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:18 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 Yea, I wish that sandbox could be used in conjunction with RDS... didn't
 it used to?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:06 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 Agreed. We don't let anyone touch the production boxes at all. They get
 synced by an admin from test.
 
 One thing RDS does that WebDav doesn't (afaik) is expose every
 datasource on the box to every user, regardless of sandboxing. That's
 why RDS is disabled on all of our shared boxes (dev, test and prod).
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 4:24
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
  I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?
 
 It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow
 people to edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.
 
 

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[S . Isaac Dealey]

 Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started
 ranting about
 the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for
 free.

 They turned CF into an Enterprise application server when
 it was was
 gettting very close to becoming legacy keeping your butts
 employed.

 Breeze rocks. Period.

 Flash is nice.

 JRun is pretty a good J2EE server (for the cost).

 Yeah! Whats goin' on Captivate! Your little brother
 RoboDemo sucked,
 but you make Camtasia look like a little girly man.

 Umm... am I forgeting anyone in my call out?

Central  Director


s. isaac dealey   954.927.5117
new epoch : isn't it time for a change?

add features without fixtures with
the onTap open source framework

http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p49777853/
http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=44477DE=1
http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45569DE=1
http://www.fusiontap.com




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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Burns, John D]

Only Adam could talk to Macromedia products as if they lived in
Southeast DC :-)  


John Burns
Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer
AI-ES Aeronautics, Web Developer

-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:34 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

You what bothers me about MM? Nothin. Well except Generator, and I swore
a blood oath to hold that against them for atleast a decade.

Outside of that.. DW is fine. You know its the skills that make a
developer, not the IDE.  Seriously... how long are you going to continue
to use an IDE that was written in Delphi? New trick old dog?
Too comfy?

Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.

They turned CF into an Enterprise application server when it was was
gettting very close to becoming legacy keeping your butts employed.

Breeze rocks. Period.

Flash is nice.

JRun is pretty a good J2EE server (for the cost).

Yeah! Whats goin' on Captivate! Your little brother RoboDemo sucked, but
you make Camtasia look like a little girly man.

Umm... am I forgeting anyone in my call out?

Oh yeah.. Contribute and Flash paper... v1 not so good WPS... hott!

Actually the only thing I hate about MM is those god darn dataDirect
drivers for Oracle. Single handly ruining my day.. every damn day.
Damn you dataDirect.. damn you straight to...


On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:44:52 -0500, Burns, John D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I wish that RDS allowed user accounts or something like that for 
 greater flexibility.  However, I do agree with Dave Watts that 
 anything that allows HTTP modification of files on my server makes me 
 leary.  I wouldn't allow something like that on a production box, 
 though on development it would be nice to have additional flexibility.
 
 John Burns
 Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer AI-ES Aeronautics, Web 
 Developer
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:18 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 Yea, I wish that sandbox could be used in conjunction with RDS... 
 didn't it used to?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:06 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 Agreed. We don't let anyone touch the production boxes at all. They 
 get synced by an admin from test.
 
 One thing RDS does that WebDav doesn't (afaik) is expose every 
 datasource on the box to every user, regardless of sandboxing. That's 
 why RDS is disabled on all of our shared boxes (dev, test and prod).
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 4:24
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
  I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?
 
 It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow 
 people to edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.
 
 



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for presentation layer
only is nuts!

-Original Message-
From: Adrocknaphobia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:34 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

You what bothers me about MM? Nothin. Well except Generator, and I
swore a blood oath to hold that against them for atleast a decade.

Outside of that.. DW is fine. You know its the skills that make a
developer, not the IDE.  Seriously... how long are you going to
continue to use an IDE that was written in Delphi? New trick old dog?
Too comfy?

Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.

They turned CF into an Enterprise application server when it was was
gettting very close to becoming legacy keeping your butts employed.

Breeze rocks. Period.

Flash is nice.

JRun is pretty a good J2EE server (for the cost).

Yeah! Whats goin' on Captivate! Your little brother RoboDemo sucked,
but you make Camtasia look like a little girly man.

Umm... am I forgeting anyone in my call out?

Oh yeah.. Contribute and Flash paper... v1 not so good WPS... hott!

Actually the only thing I hate about MM is those god darn dataDirect
drivers for Oracle. Single handly ruining my day.. every damn day.
Damn you dataDirect.. damn you straight to...


On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:44:52 -0500, Burns, John D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I wish that RDS allowed user accounts or something like that for greater
 flexibility.  However, I do agree with Dave Watts that anything that
 allows HTTP modification of files on my server makes me leary.  I
 wouldn't allow something like that on a production box, though on
 development it would be nice to have additional flexibility.
 
 John Burns
 Certified Advanced ColdFusion MX Developer
 AI-ES Aeronautics, Web Developer
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Calvin Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:18 AM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 Yea, I wish that sandbox could be used in conjunction with RDS... didn't
 it used to?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:06 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
 Agreed. We don't let anyone touch the production boxes at all. They get
 synced by an admin from test.
 
 One thing RDS does that WebDav doesn't (afaik) is expose every
 datasource on the box to every user, regardless of sandboxing. That's
 why RDS is disabled on all of our shared boxes (dev, test and prod).
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 4:24
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
  I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?
 
 It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow
 people to edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.
 
 



~|
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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:25 -0500, Adrocknaphobia
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Outside of that.. DW is fine. You know its the skills that make a
 developer, not the IDE.  

True that

 Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
 the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.

What good is a version you can't run anywhere but at home? Why learn
something that you have to invite people to your house to look at. If
I can't use it on the internet for projects I may or may not want to
charge for - who cares if it's free? It's too expensive. But hey I can
buy a 500 dollar apple (http://www.apple.com/macmini/) now so I am
stoked :)

 They turned CF into an Enterprise application server when it was was
 gettting very close to becoming legacy keeping your butts employed.

Well they didn't actually keep me employeed - I did, but the rest of
that is true ;-D

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[dave]

dont think that flex will be that way for very long, matter of fact...
and once its available on a shared server, its gunna be a 
sweeettt

u dont think MM would keep it from us do u?

-- Original Message --
From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Date:  Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:16:06 -0800

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:25 -0500, Adrocknaphobia
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Outside of that.. DW is fine. You know its the skills that make a
 developer, not the IDE.  

True that

 Flex is priced just right, and when all you kids started ranting about
 the cost, they allowed you to get developer version for free.

What good is a version you can't run anywhere but at home? Why learn
something that you have to invite people to your house to look at. If
I can't use it on the internet for projects I may or may not want to
charge for - who cares if it's free? It's too expensive. But hey I can
buy a 500 dollar apple (http://www.apple.com/macmini/) now so I am
stoked :)

 They turned CF into an Enterprise application server when it was was
 gettting very close to becoming legacy keeping your butts employed.

Well they didn't actually keep me employeed - I did, but the rest of
that is true ;-D

-- 
~Blog~
http://www.robrohan.com
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org 
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net



~|
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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:24:38 -0500, dave [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 dont think that flex will be that way for very long, matter of fact...
 and once its available on a shared server, its gunna be a 
 sweeettt
 
 u dont think MM would keep it from us do u?

I hope not because all collective creativity in the CF community could
create some monster cool apps. I am more sad that I don't get to
create and see the cool stuff others would make with it more than
anything. Stuff like this would be awesome :-o
http://www.gskinner.com/gmodeler/launch.html

-- 
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[dave]

when u look at what the market was really targeted for flex 12k is nothing, 
especially when it would save them mega times that in dev time

but now its time for the lil guys too have the cool toy too!


-- Original Message --
From: Dave Watts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Date:  Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:56:33 -0500

 I disagree on pricing for Flex... 12,000 per server for 
 presentation layer only is nuts!

Really? How about if it saves several months of developer time? (Which I
think it would, for most complex Flash client applications.) It doesn't take
things like this long to pay for themselves.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Thomas Chiverton]

On Friday 07 Jan 2005 21:49 pm, Dave Watts wrote:
 RDS would be a lot more useful if it were something that could be used by
 other tools.

RDS would be a lot more useful if it was thrown away and replaced with 
something that used open standards (WebDAV for instance).
RDS is far to insecure to leave running on anything like a production system.

-- 
Tom Chiverton 
Advanced ColdFusion Programmer
Tel: +44 (0)1749 834900
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
BlueFinger Limited
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web: www.bluefinger.com
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 RDS would be a lot more useful if it was thrown away and 
 replaced with something that used open standards (WebDAV for 
 instance). RDS is far to insecure to leave running on anything 
 like a production system.

How exactly is WebDAV any more or less secure than RDS? Both can be
protected with SSL. Both let you manipulate the filesystem through HTTP
requests.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Calvin Ward]

I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?

-Original Message-
From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:12 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

On Friday 07 Jan 2005 21:49 pm, Dave Watts wrote:
 RDS would be a lot more useful if it were something that could be used by
 other tools.

RDS would be a lot more useful if it was thrown away and replaced with 
something that used open standards (WebDAV for instance).
RDS is far to insecure to leave running on anything like a production
system.

-- 
Tom Chiverton 
Advanced ColdFusion Programmer
Tel: +44 (0)1749 834900
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
BlueFinger Limited
Underwood Business Park
Wookey Hole Road, WELLS. BA5 1AF
Tel: +44 (0)1749 834900
Fax: +44 (0)1749 834XXX
web: www.bluefinger.com
Company Reg No: 4209395 Registered Office: 2 Temple Back East, Temple Quay, 
BRISTOL. BS1 6EG
*** This E-mail contains confidential information for the addressee only. If

you are not the intended recipient,
please notify us immediately. You should not use, disclose, distribute or
copy 
this communication if received
in error. No binding contract will result from this e-mail until such time
as 
a written document is signed on
behalf of the company. BlueFinger Limited cannot accept responsibility for
the 
completeness or accuracy of
this message as it has been transmitted over public networks.***



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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Patrick McGeehan]

Speaking of SSL and RDS, is there anyway to present a certificate with RDS?
We have found no way tell studio to present a cert to https server.



Patrick McGeehan 
CFMX Advanced Certified
Applications Developer
DIT
CF_DIT#mcg#/CF_DIT

 



-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:47 PM
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia


 RDS would be a lot more useful if it was thrown away and
 replaced with something that used open standards (WebDAV for 
 instance). RDS is far to insecure to leave running on anything 
 like a production system.

How exactly is WebDAV any more or less secure than RDS? Both can be
protected with SSL. Both let you manipulate the filesystem through HTTP
requests.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!




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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?

It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow people to
edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 Speaking of SSL and RDS, is there anyway to present a 
 certificate with RDS? We have found no way tell studio to 
 present a cert to https server.

The last time I used CF Studio with RDS, I seem to recall that Studio used
Internet Explorer's settings and functionality. I've never used RDS with
client certificates, though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[James Holmes]

Agreed. We don't let anyone touch the production boxes at all. They get
synced by an admin from test.

One thing RDS does that WebDav doesn't (afaik) is expose every datasource on
the box to every user, regardless of sandboxing. That's why RDS is disabled
on all of our shared boxes (dev, test and prod).

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, 11 January 2005 4:24 
To: CF-Talk
Subject: RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

 I didn't think that RDS was for production systems?

It isn't. Neither is WebDAV, in my opinion. I'm reluctant to allow people to
edit files via HTTP on production systems in general.


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Robert Munn]

 Er, you mean like allowing myself and my colleague Seth Hodgson to
 work with the CFE folks? Early days yet but we intend to work on 
 stuff
 like framework support (FB / Mach II) and possibly UML support. Just
 remember that we do this in our (not so) copious free time... It 
 isn't
 any sort of official support for CFE, just permission to contribute 
 on
 our own time!

But that's what I think is a mistake. I for one am super-glad that you are able 
to contribute your time to this list, your blog, Mach-II, and all of the other 
things you do for the community. What I am suggesting is that MM should make a 
strategic decision to embrace open source in certain categories, like IBM has 
done by embracing Eclipse, for instance. 

I understand that IBM's business model is more geared toward services than 
licensing, but it still seems to me that MM could be on the front riding that 
wave as a company rather than merely allowing employees, through individual 
efforts, to contribute. I'm not an open source junkie, either, I just think 
some of this stuff is inevitable and forward thinking companies should be part 
of it.

  For instance, someone could duplicate the data browser function in 
 Homesite+ by attaching to the RDS servlet. Who better to write that 
 than the people that know the code already?
 
 RDS is protected by a number of copyright / other measures so you
 won't see an open source hook for that. Besides, Eclipse already has 
 a
 number of database plugins (I use DBEdit and like it a lot).

Then that could be a feature reserved for a paid, value-added version of an 
Eclipse-based IDE. It seems to me that other companies do similar stuff. I 
don't know the ins and outs of licensing, though, so I'm not sure how that 
would work. IBM does it with Websphere Studio. 

  It might be MM's position that they will not contribute to open 
 source because it eats into their revenue base
 
 We already contribute extensively to Axis and several other Java Open
 Source projects so I'm not sure why you'd say that.

Projects like Axis don't pose a direct threat to the MM revenue base, but 
CFEclipse, for instance, could be seen as a direct threat. I'm not even a big 
fan of Eclipse at this point, but it has potential. What I see is the potential 
for MM to directly support the Eclipse community, and help build a platform on 
which to sell licenses for high-end IDE products. 

MM seems lately interested in targeting enterprise customers and seems less 
interested in selling to small shops or individuals. That's great, but why not 
build some of that stuff on the open-source platforms that the small shops or 
individual developers will be using? Then you provide a bridge for people who 
start out small with free tools. As they build their skills and transition to 
more professional tools, they will be looking at tools they already know and 
understand. 

I will post my thoughts to John's blog. :-)

Rob



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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:34:02 -0500, Jim Davis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  But that's what I think is a mistake. I for one am super-glad that you are
  able to contribute your time to this list, your blog, Mach-II, and all of
  the other things you do for the community. What I am suggesting is that MM
  should make a strategic decision to embrace open source in certain
  categories, like IBM has done by embracing Eclipse, for instance.
 
 I'm not sure if that's a valid comparison.  IBM (and Microsoft and many
 others) have vast revenue streams from multiple sources that can support
 such initiatives easily, even at a flat loss, for years.  (Even then IBM
 totally screwed up Eclipse as anybody that's been forced to use WSAD can
 attest to.)

I use WSAD at work (sadly), but if I understand how the money part
works they bought WebSphere et al, and they got WSAD free. Meaning,
they bought the server stuff and got the dev tools to use the servers.
That is something MM could totally do, and no hard core java
developer or enterprise coder is going to be down with writing cf code
in dreamweaver. CFMX is a phat tag library and is really cool, way
easier and more productive then jsp alone and has better frameworks
then Struts IMHO

I think selling JRun+CFMX as Enterprise servers + giving the devtools
would work, and lend a bit of clout to a unrightly mocked language.

BTW - WSAD is Eclipse 2.x based, and 2.x was so so to begin with - but
they did kill it with monster plugins.
 
 I don't believe that MM has those kinds of resources (yet).  MM's only real
 revenue source is from software sales and licensing.  Their most popular
 product (the Flash Player) is provided free so their other development
 efforts already have to carry that (and several other free products).

IMO flash is totally different for the reason you just stated - there
is nothing but the dev tools to sell. CFMX server on the other hand is
not free.

 I agree that they could embrace an open-source project as the base for a
 commercial project but then many of the open source licenses make that
 difficult (for example the GPL has a viral clause that insists any product
 based on GPL'd material must itself be GPL'd and thus effectively free).

CFEclipse is not under GPL it is under MIT and CPL, and Eclipse it's
self its under CPL which means you could include it in a commercial
product and not give out any of your source code.

 I'm not saying that it can't work (throw me squarely in the group that would
 LOVE to see CF open-sourced).  What I'm saying is that it's a much harder
 (and potentially more dangerous) decision for smaller companies than large
 companies with multiple revenue streams.

I disagree with open sourcing CFMX (shock! though I do think a free
version without the enterprise features *may* be cool). You can do
most of the same things with jsp tag libraries that you can do with CF
and they are FOSS. Right now WebSphere and BEA and the like are having
a hard time selling stuff becuase Tomcat and JBoss are out there - why
pay for WebSphere? CFMX has some  really cool features that no other
language has (like runtime function binding onto cfcs, and a bunch of
other non-marketed/used things)

 I think that there are definite ways that MM could make it work, but they
 won't be able to make it work like IBM has.  For example we just had to
 upgrade all of work machines to a Gig of RAM to use WSAD.  So IBM's
 open-source IDE was directly responsible for the sale of several thousand
 dollars of IBM hardware.  ;^)

I have a gig of RAM and it still freezes - I like to blame windows but
I can't for sure. If you can steer clear of the XSLT editor like it
was the plague, and if you want to BSD your box run ITunes and WSAD at
the same time whe

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Jim Davis]

 -Original Message-
 From: Rob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 5:29 PM
 To: CF-Talk
 Subject: Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia
 
  I'm not saying that it can't work (throw me squarely in the group that
 would
  LOVE to see CF open-sourced).  What I'm saying is that it's a much
 harder
  (and potentially more dangerous) decision for smaller companies than
 large
  companies with multiple revenue streams.
 
 I disagree with open sourcing CFMX (shock! though I do think a free
 version without the enterprise features *may* be cool). You can do
 most of the same things with jsp tag libraries that you can do with CF
 and they are FOSS. Right now WebSphere and BEA and the like are having
 a hard time selling stuff becuase Tomcat and JBoss are out there - why
 pay for WebSphere? CFMX has some  really cool features that no other
 language has (like runtime function binding onto cfcs, and a bunch of
 other non-marketed/used things)

I'm sorry - I misspoke there.  I wasn't talking about the actual server so
much as the language.  I'd be pushing for the CF specification to become
standardized (not open-sourced).  The two concepts basically sit in the same
neuron in my head.

  I think that there are definite ways that MM could make it work, but
 they
  won't be able to make it work like IBM has.  For example we just had to
  upgrade all of work machines to a Gig of RAM to use WSAD.  So IBM's
  open-source IDE was directly responsible for the sale of several
 thousand
  dollars of IBM hardware.  ;^)
 
 I have a gig of RAM and it still freezes - I like to blame windows but
 I can't for sure. If you can steer clear of the XSLT editor like it
 was the plague, and if you want to BSD your box run ITunes and WSAD at
 the same time whe

Honestly I've not used it much yet.  It takes about 5 minutes solid to
launch (after which, admittedly, it does run okay).  But it's just so
freakin' complex.  100 perspectives each with a thousand views and no
roadmap to speak of.

Of course the company is treating it as if providing an IDE means that they
don't have to provide any other training which isn't helping.

But I know what you mean.  I've got a Celeron 1200 Laptop with a Gig of RAM
and I'm running SQL Server 2000, CFMX, Lotus Notes and Outlook (since we've
standardized on Notes but I still use Outlook) and generally will have CF
Studio, Paint Shop Pro and Corel Draw open as well.

Opening WASD is like slapping that machine with a stupid stick.  It just
sits there, stares at you and drools.  ;^)

Jim Davis





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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Robert Munn]

My only real pet peeve is Dreamweaver. Even the latest version is basically a 
slow dog compared to other editors, including Homesite+. 

Still, I understand MM's stance that once open-source candidates emerge in the 
category, it becomes a difficult if not impossible proposition to invest in 
proprietary software to compete in the space. 

Therefore, I have a proposition for MM. Why not support the Eclipse initiative? 
Most of the major Java vendors already support it. Other software companies 
support it. And the open source community supports it. Why not contribute a 
relatively modest effort toward making CFEclipse a top-flight product? 

For instance, someone could duplicate the data browser function in Homesite+ by 
attaching to the RDS servlet. Who better to write that than the people that 
know the code already? 

It might be MM's position that they will not contribute to open source because 
it eats into their revenue base, but the way I see it the job of software 
companies is to stay one step ahead of open source and always offer more value 
than the open source community alone can provide.  By refusing to consider 
alternatives, MM is essentially deciding that the space isn't worth pursuing. 

Better tools are an enticement to developers and could be considered a loss 
leader to grow the server market share for products like ColdFusion. And that 
doesn't mean MM has to give away their product. They could produce some 
additions to CFEclipse for free and build a whole value-added product on top of 
it. And since MM seems to want to turn everyone into a CF/Java programmer, what 
better way to do that than to get them on the Eclipse platform where all the 
Java tools are right there? 

I'm available (for a modest fee) for further discussion of this topic with MM 
brass. ;-)



This is worth reading and commenting on:

  http://www.markme.com/jd/archives/006722.cfm

Ben Rogers
http://www.c4.net
v.508.240.0051
f.508.240.0057

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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Sean Corfield]

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:53:10 -0400, Robert Munn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My only real pet peeve is Dreamweaver. Even the latest version is basically a 
 slow dog compared to other editors, including Homesite+.

Just a meta-comment: you will all get more mileage out of these peeves
if you post them as comments on John's blog. He doesn't read this list
and if you don't comment there, your voice will be lost (to him, at
least).

 Therefore, I have a proposition for MM. Why not support the Eclipse 
 initiative? Most of the major Java vendors already support it. Other software 
 companies support it. And the open source community supports it. Why not 
 contribute a relatively modest effort toward making CFEclipse a top-flight 
 product?

Er, you mean like allowing myself and my colleague Seth Hodgson to
work with the CFE folks? Early days yet but we intend to work on stuff
like framework support (FB / Mach II) and possibly UML support. Just
remember that we do this in our (not so) copious free time... It isn't
any sort of official support for CFE, just permission to contribute on
our own time!

 For instance, someone could duplicate the data browser function in Homesite+ 
 by attaching to the RDS servlet. Who better to write that than the people 
 that know the code already?

RDS is protected by a number of copyright / other measures so you
won't see an open source hook for that. Besides, Eclipse already has a
number of database plugins (I use DBEdit and like it a lot).

 It might be MM's position that they will not contribute to open source 
 because it eats into their revenue base

We already contribute extensively to Axis and several other Java Open
Source projects so I'm not sure why you'd say that.
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield.org/breezeme
Got Gmail? -- I have 5 invites to give away!

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Dave Watts]

 RDS is protected by a number of copyright / other measures so 
 you won't see an open source hook for that.

RDS would be a lot more useful if it were something that could be used by
other tools.

  It might be MM's position that they will not contribute to 
  open source because it eats into their revenue base
 
 We already contribute extensively to Axis and several other 
 Java Open Source projects so I'm not sure why you'd say that.

Those projects don't jeopardize your product sales - they're complementary
to your products.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized 
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, 
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. 
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!


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Re: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Rob]

  Therefore, I have a proposition for MM. Why not support the Eclipse 
  initiative? Most of the major Java vendors already support it. Other 
  software companies support it. And the open source community supports it. 
  Why not contribute a relatively modest effort toward making CFEclipse a 
  top-flight product?
 
 Er, you mean like allowing myself and my colleague Seth Hodgson to
 work with the CFE folks? Early days yet but we intend to work on stuff
 like framework support (FB / Mach II) and possibly UML support. Just
 remember that we do this in our (not so) copious free time... It isn't
 any sort of official support for CFE, just permission to contribute on
 our own time!

Just to solidify this, as Sean said, there are quite a few MM guys
(and BlueDragon guys too) who talk with us off line quite regularly
(mostly Spike who is now the project leader). A few have already sent
in patches for CFE, and they have some very interesting ideas coming
down the pike. MM as an entity doesn't support or endorse the project,
but they don't hate us, and I think they want the project to do well
(as it in the end should help sell more CF servers)

-- 
~The cfml plug-in for eclipse~
http://cfeclipse.tigris.org
~open source xslt IDE~
http://treebeard.sourceforge.net
~open source XML database~
http://ashpool.sourceforge.net

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RE: John Dowdell Wants to Know What's Wrong with Macromedia

[Micha Schopman]

There are some interesting comments overthere which I certainly agree
with:

The overbearing control of betas. I remember several years ago dumb
enthusiasts would get a copy of a beta and talk about it. He'd get
smashed by the legal team. Way to go. This was fgr Flash 4. You're still
not thinking outside the box. I've got a beta 1 of VS 2005 Whidbey 10
months before release, and will get a beta 2. I've even sent in some
comments and feedback. Infact, they openly solicit feedback now. Only
those sworn to death know about Flash 8 and the other products.

MM products have gotten progressively slower and buggier with each
release. I was on the DW Canonball beta. Not a single one of the dozen
or so bugs that I submitted were fixed. They were all differed. One of
those bugs was a major one which seriously affects my productivity. Not
to mention that Canonball was distributed by a memory leak (confirmed by
pretty much everyone on the beta!) Come on Macromedia. I'm positive that
the next bug fix for DW will be a paid upgrade... how great is that? I
spent hours on the beta, had all of my work igonored, and will then have
to pay to see if any of the bugs were fixed.

I think the user experience for me at the Macromedia site is probably
most obnoxious. I used to be able to manage my purchases and download
stuff pretty easily, now I can't even figure out how to log in to my
account.

Patch releases for apps, or lack there of?! I enjoy reading and hearing
more about the newer version and what's coming. Trust me, I love gossip
as the next geek, but I also would love to hear my current invesment(s)
are still considered serious investments - post-launch and
post-quick-fixes.

Hmmm, possibly the OTT piracy protection. I know there's a need to
protect Macromedia software from pirates and dodgy design houses, but
there hasn't been a single DRM or Activation system that hasn't been
'cracked' after a few weeks of release.

This forced me to use illegal versions because my legal license
became  invalid. Very stupid system indeed.

FIX THE FORUMS!!!

Every generation of Flash, Dreamweaver and Fireworks has gotten worse
in performance an stablity. Steamline and finetune the products

I'm a ColdFusion developer and HomeSite user who inadvertently ended up
a Macromedia customer after the Allaire merger. I'd have to say that my
biggest gripe is the lack of commitment that Macromedia has toward its
products, both those it has created itself and those it has acquired.

Consequently, it really seems to me that Macromedia doesn't want
individual developers and small development shops for customers.
Macromedia prices it's products and services for enterprises and then
drops products at version 1.0 or 1.5, ostensibly because no one's buying
them. But why would we drop 20 grand on a product when Macromedia's
displayed over and over again that it lacks a long term commitment to
all but a few products? It is my belief that there are only a few
products which you can safely buy from Macromedia.

Also, there seems to be an incredible level of arrogance from some of
the more visible people at MM. Some employees' blog postings seem to be
getting more political, and less useful. And some of the pushback for
feature requests has been, well, incredulous. I didn't realize customer
opinions could be shot down so quickly, but it's happened.

I've sent a number of feature requests to MM re: HomeSite, and never
got any response; I'm not looking for attention, but it would be nice to
know that someone at MM actually received my suggestions and *read*
them; even better to see in print (in a forum) what can/cannot or
will/will not be done *for* HomeSite in the future (sort of like
Bradbury Software's forums
(http://www.bradsoft.com/forums/default.aspx)


Micha Schopman
Software Engineer

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL  Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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