Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Just some comments about the opinions of some contributors in this discussion. I sometimes see arrogance of CCIE being Know-It-All about networking both theoretically and experiences. I see most people try to compare apples to oranges when talking about CCIE. Some people have a solid networking work experience, while still not being able to pass CCIE. While others manage to pass CCIE with less networking experience as the previous guy. Well CCIE Lab and the real world experience are different things. It is like comparing a top-notch businessman and a graduate who just finished his MBA. Maybe the businessman does not need any certification at all to make money, because of his experience. But it does not mean that a fresh graduate who just finishes his MBA only having 3-year working experience can be claimed he is a book-rat MBA degree. This sentence means demoralizing people who will accomplish CCIE and go further in their real-world experience to understand and learn more about their certification values. That's why Cisco has 2-year recertification program for CCIE. Having CCIE is just the beginning of exploring and understanding more about the real networking world. It does not matter how you get to manage to pass the lab, as long as it is not cheating, we have to appreciate and respect all those people who dedicate their whole time pursuing CCIE, and respect them when they get it. In future, we might not know that these people will have more experience than the people who claim them lab-rats. The most important thing is to eventually balance both the theoretical, lab and real experience. For those who think themselves very well-experienced, and always try to demoralized people who get CCIE as lab-rat, be careful in the near future you might lose out to them. People need not be so proud of themselves just because of CCIE. nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Michael L. Williams wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... It's not in Cisco's best interest to crank out CCIEs and I doubt that's what they're doing (or going to do) After all, this is a job posting, and I doubt they're going to hire and train enough people to make an impact in the total number of CCIEs out there. (i.e. they may hire 5, 10, hell maybe even 50 people, say, and so you're only taking 5/10/50 more CCIEs on top of the 7400 existing CCIEs ... not enough to impact the overall market/demand for CCIEs, IMHO). I agree with another poster here that, even spending everyday at work for Cisco studying isn't enough to get through the new CCIE written, much less the lab. I agree with the premise that even TAC guys do not get as much hands-on as they would like, especially with expensive gear. From my friends who are and were at TAC, they have to fight for access to good equipment. As far as the devaluing of the CCIE, I've see ramblings of this ever since I joined Groupstudy, and I believe that it's mostly just alot of talk. Sure, CCIEs aren't pulling in as high a salary as they were 2 years ago, but most of that is due to the dot-bomb thing coming to an end as well as the job market/economy of the last year or so. Two things can devalue the cert: The number of CCIEs skyrocketing and/or people being able to attain the CCIE without being qualified. I don't think anyone will argue that the CCIE written/lab combo pretty much keeps paper CCIEs from becoming a reality. Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. As far as the number of CCIEs skyrocketing, if I recall correctly, when I first started working on Cisco certification there were around 6000 CCIEs. Now there are around 7400 (worldwide). That's certainly not skyrocketing. Compare that to MSCEs where there was such a flood of new MSCEs on the market that simply supply/demand took over, and all of a sudden MSCEs were a dime a dozen (no offense to people with MSCEs, just making a point about the numbers). Also, I don't agree with the claim that the CCIEs best days are behind it. I believe this is definitely true - look at the salaries of CCIE's back in '99 compared to today. Obviously the main reason
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
OK, inline Erwin wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Just some comments about the opinions of some contributors in this discussion. I sometimes see arrogance of CCIE being Know-It-All about networking both theoretically and experiences. I see most people try to compare apples to oranges when talking about CCIE. Some people have a solid networking work experience, while still not being able to pass CCIE. While others manage to pass CCIE with less networking experience as the previous guy. Well CCIE Lab and the real world experience are different things. It is like comparing a top-notch businessman and a graduate who just finished his MBA. Maybe the businessman does not need any certification at all to make money, because of his experience. But it does not mean that a fresh graduate who just finishes his MBA only having 3-year working experience can be claimed he is a book-rat MBA degree. Funny you should say that, because I've heard HR people call new MBA's being called exactly that - the 'book-rat'. It doesn't really matter what you (or I) think is right, it only matters what HR and employers think, because they're the ones with hiring power. I am only reporting what I have seen employers do. This sentence means demoralizing people who will accomplish CCIE and go further in their real-world experience to understand and learn more about their certification values. Hey, if you think that my use of the term is demoralizing, you ain't seen nothing yet. Much more importantly, employers and customers are starting to bandy around the term as well. For example, one prospective employer asked me point-blank recently Are you a 'real' CCIE or are you just a lab-rat?. So if you think it's harsh that I'm using the term, just wait until you're in an interview and you get accused. So basically, if I'm being harsh, then hey, I'm being no harsher than what's happening in the real world. The fact is, the lab-rats have left an indelibly negative mark in the industry. If you don't like the term, then hey, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the (networking) kitchen. That's why Cisco has 2-year recertification program for CCIE. Which is an absolute joke for one simple reason - a guy can just keep taking the recert exam over and over again until he finally passes. What would make it much more interesting if is Cisco were to put a limit on the number of recert attempts you could do - say 3 shots, and then you're forced to go back into the lab again. Having CCIE is just the beginning of exploring and understanding more about the real networking world. It does not matter how you get to manage to pass the lab, as long as it is not cheating, we have to appreciate and respect all those people who dedicate their whole time pursuing CCIE, and respect them when they get it. I'm afraid I must disagree. I believe in theory, there are some ways to get the CCIE that are more respectable than others. And no, I'm not talking about formal cheating as such. The problem of course is figuring out which way is better and which aren't, but I believe such distinctions can be made. For example, I consider it more impressive if somebody passed the exam the first time around, with few study materials, and just lots of hands-on experience, then if somebody just attends lots and lots of those CCIE-lab-specific 'cram' training classes, and has buddies whispering in his ear about what he should expect on the lab (although those guys might not be technically violating the NDA when doing so, we all know that the NDA is a very fine line and people can go right up to it without technically violating it). It is analogous to whether you think it is more impressive if a guy graduates from a famous college with a perfect 4.0 GPA in a tough major despite having to work 3 jobs to pay his student bills, as opposed to a guy who barely skated by in an easy major and who only got admitted in the first place because daddy donated a million dollars to the school. In both cases, each person got a degree, but I think we both know who was more impressive in doing so.Now, I'm not saying that the exact same situation applies to the CCIE, that's just an example, but I'm sure you get the idea. In future, we might not know that these people will have more experience than the people who claim them lab-rats. The most important thing is to eventually balance both the theoretical, lab and real experience. Well of course that is true. But like I said, many of the lab-rats (not all, but many) are not interested in doing that. They pass the lab and they immediately expect a huge salary. Never mind the fact that they have never actually run a real network, all they see is that they've passed the lab, so now they expect dollars to come falling out of the sky. It's these delusions of grandeur that give the lab-rat such a bad name. I don't think anyone has a problem with an inexperienced guy
RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Its getting kind of hot in here.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jason Forrester Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 4:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] Becareful with the kid comment. I passed my CCIE at 20, dang near 19. Jason CCIE 8748 Michael L. Williams wrote: nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). Significant? Help me understand the extent to which you use that word? If you're a proctor for CCIE labs and saw people day in and day out, then I would take your word for it. I have yet to take the lab, but I'm trying to understand how someone could make it through the lab and still be considered paper. Is the lab that big of a joke? Consider it's very high fail rate, I can't see it being so easy that people can't pass without understanding what they're doing? At least to the same level that anyone else who ever passed the lab did Personally I use paper to mean someone with a cert that doesn't have any hands-on to match it like paper MSCE.. I worked with this kid who was 19, has his MSCE, CNE, and Master CNE, but had zero hands on definitely paper... but we're talking the CCIE lab here. it's simply not possible (IMHO) to pass the lab without at least a minimum of hands-on (whether in a job or on practice equipment) to give one the skills to pass. But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. Agreed I don't thik we'll see things back like there were a couple of years ago. But I'm trying to draw a fine distinction between the devaluing of a cert (due to shoddy cert process) -vs- the salary that one pulls in with the cert. The CCIEs now (in general) don't make and probably in the future won't make what CCIEs of two years ago did. Is this a devaluation of the cert. Certainly not. That's the market that's the economy I don't believe that has much to do with whether employers and network professionals value the certification (i.e. consider someone with CCIE to be a true expert in networking). Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43521t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
The begining of wisdom is the realization that you know nothingsomeone important said that once and I believe that its meaning is as pertinent today as it was when it was originally stated. To suggest that a CCIE possess god like qualities is a disservice to the CCIE and God if one stops to think about it. CCIEs are people and are capable of major goof ups just as much as the lowliest desktop technician. We live in an imperfect world, I think that its time that we all re-evaluate our conceptual understanding of the CCIE certification and realize that its merely another step in the never ending progression of learning. :-) My 2 Cents, Will Gragido CCNP CCNA CCDA MCP and SoB ;-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of TALBOT, WILLIAM P (SWBT) Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 5:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] I agree, there is a perception of CCIE's as arrogant know-it-alls. Some of this is surely warranted, and some surely stems from envy. Which is why I can laugh at this joke you may have already heard: Q:What's the difference between a CCIE and God? A:God doesn't think he is a CCIE... Pat (Set to incur the wrath of the aforementioned God at the RS Lab in RTP on May 18) -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] I also agree with you on many points. But anyway, inline I see your point about people not skipping the tech interview because of CCIE. And I also agree that it's a good thing. After all, when 'lab rats' (as you call them) are applying for jobs, it just makes sense that one would give a tough interview to weed them out. However, one must ask themselves What is the purpose of the cert? Just like a college degree in, say Computer Science. The BS in CS doesn't guarantee an employer that the person has experience, say, with PERL. However, the degree indicates that this person can learn and understand the logic of programming, etc. I don't think the purpose of the CCIE (or any Cisco cert) is to guarentee knowledge of absolutely everything in networking. That's not possible. However, I believe that it does indicate an advanced level of understanding of network principles as well as knowledge of specific technologies (EIGRP, HSRP, DLSw+, etc). So, as in your example of the person that didn't learn BGP because it wasn't required for the cert, I have to say So what. That wasn't the point of the CCIE. The CCNP cert doesn't cover IS-IS, for example, but I would hope anyone with CCNP could sit down, read about IS-IS, know how to look up IS-IS related commands on Cisco's site, and then implement what needs to be implemented. That's, IMHO, the purpose of obtaining the cert. This is absolutely true, nobody can know everything, and the CCIE was never designed to do that. On the other hand, there is a major difference between somebody who admits he doesn't know the answer, but can probably look it up, and somebody who boldly states something that is flatly wrong. For example, with that guy I interviewed who claimed that CEF can only be run on a GSR, clearly this was a case where he was trying to snow me. Now I admit, I was trying to trick him (I deliberately pretended that I knew nothing about networks because I wanted to see what kinds of things he would say if he didn't think I was a networking guy myself), and boy, was he tricked. It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to buy a home lab. Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. I understand your differentiation between real-world hands-on and practice lab (lab rat) hands-on. I truly do. But, again, it's like the college degree thing. If a company wants someone who has experience, they'll interview and ask questions that only seasoned professionals could answer. But, if they want someone with a certain level of knowledge, demonstrated ability to learn new things, and the ability to find resources and answer questions, then that could be a seasoned professional or someone that's certified (or someone with both). On the flip side of your argument, I've met people that are trying to get into networking from the telco side, and could explain in great detail how a T1 works, but couldn't explain HSRP (a very simple thing to understand and setup) to save their life. Doesn't mean their stupid, just not exposed to it. And the cert provides exposure to these things, whether real world or lab rat
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
At 01:12 AM 5/6/02, Nnanna Obuba wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in it for the money...we all are, some admit it and some don't. No, we aren't all in it for the money. Why would you assume that?? It's indeed a wise strategy to pursue financial security, then you can afford to do the stuff u love. I'm doing what I love and I get paid for it. But I would do it even if the pay sucked. I discovered computer programming while studying to be a librarian. I was expecting to be poor. ;-) Priscilla = Nnanna Obuba CCIE # 6586 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43411t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Though if I were to win the 64 million $ power ball Wednesday... Dave Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: At 01:12 AM 5/6/02, Nnanna Obuba wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in it for the money...we all are, some admit it and some don't. No, we aren't all in it for the money. Why would you assume that?? It's indeed a wise strategy to pursue financial security, then you can afford to do the stuff u love. I'm doing what I love and I get paid for it. But I would do it even if the pay sucked. I discovered computer programming while studying to be a librarian. I was expecting to be poor. ;-) Priscilla = Nnanna Obuba CCIE # 6586 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43424t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Becareful with the kid comment. I passed my CCIE at 20, dang near 19. Jason CCIE 8748 Michael L. Williams wrote: nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). Significant? Help me understand the extent to which you use that word? If you're a proctor for CCIE labs and saw people day in and day out, then I would take your word for it. I have yet to take the lab, but I'm trying to understand how someone could make it through the lab and still be considered paper. Is the lab that big of a joke? Consider it's very high fail rate, I can't see it being so easy that people can't pass without understanding what they're doing? At least to the same level that anyone else who ever passed the lab did Personally I use paper to mean someone with a cert that doesn't have any hands-on to match it like paper MSCE.. I worked with this kid who was 19, has his MSCE, CNE, and Master CNE, but had zero hands on definitely paper... but we're talking the CCIE lab here. it's simply not possible (IMHO) to pass the lab without at least a minimum of hands-on (whether in a job or on practice equipment) to give one the skills to pass. But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. Agreed I don't thik we'll see things back like there were a couple of years ago. But I'm trying to draw a fine distinction between the devaluing of a cert (due to shoddy cert process) -vs- the salary that one pulls in with the cert. The CCIEs now (in general) don't make and probably in the future won't make what CCIEs of two years ago did. Is this a devaluation of the cert. Certainly not. That's the market that's the economy I don't believe that has much to do with whether employers and network professionals value the certification (i.e. consider someone with CCIE to be a true expert in networking). Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43436t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I appreciate your comments and I applaud your accomplishment, especially at such a young age. but once ones age is past 25 and 30 and beyond, everyone that's 19, 20, 21 is still considered a kid =) Mike W. Jason Forrester wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Becareful with the kid comment. I passed my CCIE at 20, dang near 19. Jason CCIE 8748 Michael L. Williams wrote: nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). Significant? Help me understand the extent to which you use that word? If you're a proctor for CCIE labs and saw people day in and day out, then I would take your word for it. I have yet to take the lab, but I'm trying to understand how someone could make it through the lab and still be considered paper. Is the lab that big of a joke? Consider it's very high fail rate, I can't see it being so easy that people can't pass without understanding what they're doing? At least to the same level that anyone else who ever passed the lab did Personally I use paper to mean someone with a cert that doesn't have any hands-on to match it like paper MSCE.. I worked with this kid who was 19, has his MSCE, CNE, and Master CNE, but had zero hands on definitely paper... but we're talking the CCIE lab here. it's simply not possible (IMHO) to pass the lab without at least a minimum of hands-on (whether in a job or on practice equipment) to give one the skills to pass. But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. Agreed I don't thik we'll see things back like there were a couple of years ago. But I'm trying to draw a fine distinction between the devaluing of a cert (due to shoddy cert process) -vs- the salary that one pulls in with the cert. The CCIEs now (in general) don't make and probably in the future won't make what CCIEs of two years ago did. Is this a devaluation of the cert. Certainly not. That's the market that's the economy I don't believe that has much to do with whether employers and network professionals value the certification (i.e. consider someone with CCIE to be a true expert in networking). Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43437t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I agree, there is a perception of CCIE's as arrogant know-it-alls. Some of this is surely warranted, and some surely stems from envy. Which is why I can laugh at this joke you may have already heard: Q:What's the difference between a CCIE and God? A:God doesn't think he is a CCIE... Pat (Set to incur the wrath of the aforementioned God at the RS Lab in RTP on May 18) -Original Message- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 7:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] I also agree with you on many points. But anyway, inline I see your point about people not skipping the tech interview because of CCIE. And I also agree that it's a good thing. After all, when 'lab rats' (as you call them) are applying for jobs, it just makes sense that one would give a tough interview to weed them out. However, one must ask themselves What is the purpose of the cert? Just like a college degree in, say Computer Science. The BS in CS doesn't guarantee an employer that the person has experience, say, with PERL. However, the degree indicates that this person can learn and understand the logic of programming, etc. I don't think the purpose of the CCIE (or any Cisco cert) is to guarentee knowledge of absolutely everything in networking. That's not possible. However, I believe that it does indicate an advanced level of understanding of network principles as well as knowledge of specific technologies (EIGRP, HSRP, DLSw+, etc). So, as in your example of the person that didn't learn BGP because it wasn't required for the cert, I have to say So what. That wasn't the point of the CCIE. The CCNP cert doesn't cover IS-IS, for example, but I would hope anyone with CCNP could sit down, read about IS-IS, know how to look up IS-IS related commands on Cisco's site, and then implement what needs to be implemented. That's, IMHO, the purpose of obtaining the cert. This is absolutely true, nobody can know everything, and the CCIE was never designed to do that. On the other hand, there is a major difference between somebody who admits he doesn't know the answer, but can probably look it up, and somebody who boldly states something that is flatly wrong. For example, with that guy I interviewed who claimed that CEF can only be run on a GSR, clearly this was a case where he was trying to snow me. Now I admit, I was trying to trick him (I deliberately pretended that I knew nothing about networks because I wanted to see what kinds of things he would say if he didn't think I was a networking guy myself), and boy, was he tricked. It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to buy a home lab. Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. I understand your differentiation between real-world hands-on and practice lab (lab rat) hands-on. I truly do. But, again, it's like the college degree thing. If a company wants someone who has experience, they'll interview and ask questions that only seasoned professionals could answer. But, if they want someone with a certain level of knowledge, demonstrated ability to learn new things, and the ability to find resources and answer questions, then that could be a seasoned professional or someone that's certified (or someone with both). On the flip side of your argument, I've met people that are trying to get into networking from the telco side, and could explain in great detail how a T1 works, but couldn't explain HSRP (a very simple thing to understand and setup) to save their life. Doesn't mean their stupid, just not exposed to it. And the cert provides exposure to these things, whether real world or lab rat experience I mean, really, does it matter if you setup HSRP in a lab or in the real-world? I think not... HSRP is HSRP I guess, when it comes down to it, I feel if you (the hiring person) wants someone that can explain CEF, which models have software CEF, which have hardware CEF, which 6500 blades are fabric enabled and which aren't just by their model number, then you're not looking for anything but sheer experience. So why blame the cert for not providing that background to a person, when that's not the point of the cert to begin with? Two friends of mine, for example, are basically lab-rats (Ok, they did have previous experience, but very little). They accomplished it by basically borrowing my lab and all my books. They can't find decent work, because they can't pass the newly tightened tech interviews. So they are back doing sys-admin work, which is what they had been doing before
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
At 3:56 PM -0400 5/6/02, MADMAN wrote: Though if I were to win the 64 million $ power ball Wednesday... Dave You know, that's a fantasy that's occurred to me at times. One of things I'd do with PART of the money is to start up some technology companies to develop what _I_ think are some new ideas in routers. Some, however, would indeed go for finally replacing my two-oven, eight-burner Viking stove that's had a part on back order for over six months. Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: At 01:12 AM 5/6/02, Nnanna Obuba wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in it for the money...we all are, some admit it and some don't. No, we aren't all in it for the money. Why would you assume that?? It's indeed a wise strategy to pursue financial security, then you can afford to do the stuff u love. I'm doing what I love and I get paid for it. But I would do it even if the pay sucked. I discovered computer programming while studying to be a librarian. I was expecting to be poor. ;-) Priscilla = Nnanna Obuba CCIE # 6586 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43440t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Did you make that one up I like it. I've had many philosophical (sp?) discussions with a very keen co-worker about being guided by emotions or logic/reason. My stance is, emotions cloud good judgement (not 100% but mostly), and he maintains there are 2 kinds of people: Those that are guided by emotion and have success doing it, and those that don't. For those that do use emotion successfully, sometimes trying to use logic/reason can actually be bad Interesting tho. I'm going to forward your quote to my work acct so I can forward to him Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43443t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I didn't make it up, I have heard it said by a local talk show personality, a small l libertarian and I obviously liked it. Why are domestic disturbances most dangerous for the police to respond to? Emotions. What do demogouges use to gain influence and power, emotions, why are people willing to surrender some liberty, which is almost always permanent, in the aftermath of most any tragedy, emotions... Unfortuately those that hunger for power and control over others use emotional appeals and too often are successful. remember gov't can only do for you in the equal proportion that it does to you. Off my soapbox! I need to find a new PC, my home system puked over the weekend:( Dave Michael L. Williams wrote: Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Did you make that one up I like it. I've had many philosophical (sp?) discussions with a very keen co-worker about being guided by emotions or logic/reason. My stance is, emotions cloud good judgement (not 100% but mostly), and he maintains there are 2 kinds of people: Those that are guided by emotion and have success doing it, and those that don't. For those that do use emotion successfully, sometimes trying to use logic/reason can actually be bad Interesting tho. I'm going to forward your quote to my work acct so I can forward to him Mike W. -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43447t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Wow, you must like to cook too!! I drool at the pictures of the Viking equipment in my Bon Appetit' magazine as I do a lot of cooking and looking forward to getting my garden going. Not very good service though huh?? Dave Yup...just getting my herb seedlings planted. I shouldn't complain -- I got the stove at half price on a closeout. But an AGS (not AGS+) is better built. The enamel came off when hit by oven cleaner. The oven doors don't quite go in without a good shove. My house was *ahem* honored by a now former-family of rats. They ate through the control cabling. I have the low voltage ignition controller. I have the power cord. I don't have the power supply between them. Now, I really don't think it would be hard to pull the power supply and reverse engineer it. But only authorized dealers can get the rest of the parts. Viking says parts are their distributors' problems, not theirs. The dealer/repair shop is as frustrated as I am. If I could just get SmartNet on it... Howard C. Berkowitz wrote: At 3:56 PM -0400 5/6/02, MADMAN wrote: Though if I were to win the 64 million $ power ball Wednesday... Dave You know, that's a fantasy that's occurred to me at times. One of things I'd do with PART of the money is to start up some technology companies to develop what _I_ think are some new ideas in routers. Some, however, would indeed go for finally replacing my two-oven, eight-burner Viking stove that's had a part on back order for over six months. Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: At 01:12 AM 5/6/02, Nnanna Obuba wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in it for the money...we all are, some admit it and some don't. No, we aren't all in it for the money. Why would you assume that?? It's indeed a wise strategy to pursue financial security, then you can afford to do the stuff u love. I'm doing what I love and I get paid for it. But I would do it even if the pay sucked. I discovered computer programming while studying to be a librarian. I was expecting to be poor. ;-) Priscilla = Nnanna Obuba CCIE # 6586 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 Emotion should reflect reason not guide it -- David Madland Sr. Network Engineer CCIE# 2016 Qwest Communications Int. Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612-664-3367 Emotion should reflect reason not guide it Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43448t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Here's an interesting that is along the lines of our discussion of certifications without skills to back them up. Tim was so learned, that he could name a horse in nine Languages. So ignorant, that he bought a cow to ride on. - Ben Franklin Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43452t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Michael L. Williams wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... It's not in Cisco's best interest to crank out CCIEs and I doubt that's what they're doing (or going to do) After all, this is a job posting, and I doubt they're going to hire and train enough people to make an impact in the total number of CCIEs out there. (i.e. they may hire 5, 10, hell maybe even 50 people, say, and so you're only taking 5/10/50 more CCIEs on top of the 7400 existing CCIEs ... not enough to impact the overall market/demand for CCIEs, IMHO). I agree with another poster here that, even spending everyday at work for Cisco studying isn't enough to get through the new CCIE written, much less the lab. I agree with the premise that even TAC guys do not get as much hands-on as they would like, especially with expensive gear. From my friends who are and were at TAC, they have to fight for access to good equipment. As far as the devaluing of the CCIE, I've see ramblings of this ever since I joined Groupstudy, and I believe that it's mostly just alot of talk. Sure, CCIEs aren't pulling in as high a salary as they were 2 years ago, but most of that is due to the dot-bomb thing coming to an end as well as the job market/economy of the last year or so. Two things can devalue the cert: The number of CCIEs skyrocketing and/or people being able to attain the CCIE without being qualified. I don't think anyone will argue that the CCIE written/lab combo pretty much keeps paper CCIEs from becoming a reality. Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. As far as the number of CCIEs skyrocketing, if I recall correctly, when I first started working on Cisco certification there were around 6000 CCIEs. Now there are around 7400 (worldwide). That's certainly not skyrocketing. Compare that to MSCEs where there was such a flood of new MSCEs on the market that simply supply/demand took over, and all of a sudden MSCEs were a dime a dozen (no offense to people with MSCEs, just making a point about the numbers). Also, I don't agree with the claim that the CCIEs best days are behind it. I believe this is definitely true - look at the salaries of CCIE's back in '99 compared to today. Obviously the main reason for this is the bad economy. But the proliferation of CCIE's (especially lab rats) doesn't help matters. Just ask Jon Kaberna who's written quite a bit on this subject. Again, the main reason is that I doubt the networking economy will ever get back to what it was during the boom ever again in our lifetime. Although many felt that the new one-day lab was going to open the floodgates for paper CCIEs, I don't recall reading any posts by people saying the new lab was a breeze. Also, any of the level of difficulty that may have been lost going to the one-day format is definitely going to be made up for by the new format of the written. As has been posted here more recently (by either Bernard or Dennis right after they took the beta), the failure rate of the written is definitely going to go up with this new exam. If that is true, then it is a long-overdue change. The fact is the old written was not getting the job done. I think not only should the new written be more difficult, but you should also only be able to attempt it a certain number of times per year (say, 3 times per year or something). Also, Cisco should emphatically state once-and-for-all that the CCIE-written is not a cert. Just my 2 cents Mike W. nwo wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If this is true then it represents an even worse devaluation of the CCIE than what has happened already. Not only will there be those lab-rat CCIE's out there with zero experience that are being churned out already, but now Cisco itself will be pumping out CCIE's with as little as 3 months experience. This is even more evidence that the cert's best days are behind it. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at:
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I know for a fact that it is possible. Unisys mainframe engineers in the UK re-trained 6 Engineers to CCIE in 6 months. One passed 1st time, one second time and one had a nervous breakdown but passed on the 6th attempt. Don't know what happened to the other 3, but the one who passed 1st time was still struggling with sub-netting at times. Phil. Steven A. Ridder wrote: Hey, it's a good sign that they're hiring, but I can guarantee that no recent college grad can get a CCIE in 6 months with little to no experience. It must be a typo. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalised at My Yahoo!. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43331t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
They always say this tihing to all their new hires in TAC but I know many of my friends working in TAC for 2 years now but still not done with their CCIE. Shahid --- Wow wrote: not sure if this is still true (or if it ever was) but i had heard that cisco has higher standards for certs for empolyees. That the passing score on most of the tests for an employee is higher than for the rest of us. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Shahid Muhammad Shafi Every man dies; not every man really lives Please help feed hungry people worldwide http://www.hungersite.com/ A small thing each of us can do to help others less fortunate than ourselves __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43332t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). Significant? Help me understand the extent to which you use that word? If you're a proctor for CCIE labs and saw people day in and day out, then I would take your word for it. I have yet to take the lab, but I'm trying to understand how someone could make it through the lab and still be considered paper. Is the lab that big of a joke? Consider it's very high fail rate, I can't see it being so easy that people can't pass without understanding what they're doing? At least to the same level that anyone else who ever passed the lab did Personally I use paper to mean someone with a cert that doesn't have any hands-on to match it like paper MSCE.. I worked with this kid who was 19, has his MSCE, CNE, and Master CNE, but had zero hands on definitely paper... but we're talking the CCIE lab here. it's simply not possible (IMHO) to pass the lab without at least a minimum of hands-on (whether in a job or on practice equipment) to give one the skills to pass. But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. Agreed I don't thik we'll see things back like there were a couple of years ago. But I'm trying to draw a fine distinction between the devaluing of a cert (due to shoddy cert process) -vs- the salary that one pulls in with the cert. The CCIEs now (in general) don't make and probably in the future won't make what CCIEs of two years ago did. Is this a devaluation of the cert. Certainly not. That's the market that's the economy I don't believe that has much to do with whether employers and network professionals value the certification (i.e. consider someone with CCIE to be a true expert in networking). Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=4t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Michael L. Williams wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Bullshi*. There are a significant number of guys lately who've passed the lab who I wouldn't hesitate to call paper (heck, even they have honestly referred to themselves as paper, usually after getting a few drinks into them). Significant? Help me understand the extent to which you use that word? My definition of 'significant' is like this. Basically, are there enough of them around that you have to worry about them. For example, in the not-too-distant past, the CCIE was really a quite solid guarantee that a guy was a good networker. Maybe the guy didn't know, say, BGP (because he was an old-timer who passed the exam when the lab didn't have BGP and he never bothered to learn it since - this is another problem with the cert, but I digress), but basically you could note that he had a CCIE number and immediately take that to mean that he had a solid base of practical networking experience. No longer. Now during job interviews, whether you're a CCIE or not, you have to proceed further. For example, as a contractor, I ran recruiting for several companies and I ran into a significant number of candidates that held their CCIE who I would have considered not solid at all. By significant, something like 10-15% of those guys who had CCIE numbers over, say, 6000. I purposefully asked real-world questions that I knew were not on the lab (for example, explain how T-1 lines work, explain CEF vs. fast-switching) and I noted their responses. Many of them slam-dunked the questions. But some seriously fumbled them. And I mean seriously. One guy claimed that CEF was only available on the GSR. The flip side is also true. When I go to get jobs for myself, I have noted that companies are no longer satisfied with noting my 4-digit number like they were in the past. It used to be they saw that and they basically skipped the technical interview. Not anymore. Now I see that they will still ask simple networking questions. I answered them all easily (at least, I'd like to think they did) but the mere fact that I was being asked these kinds of questions makes me think that they probably got burned by a lab-rat before and want to make sure I'm not one. you're a proctor for CCIE labs and saw people day in and day out, then I would take your word for it. I have yet to take the lab, but I'm trying to understand how someone could make it through the lab and still be considered paper. Is the lab that big of a joke? It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to buy a home lab. Consider it's very high fail rate, I can't see it being so easy that people can't pass without understanding what they're doing? At least to the same level that anyone else who ever passed the lab did Personally I use paper to mean someone with a cert that doesn't have any hands-on to match it like paper MSCE.. I worked with this kid who was 19, has his MSCE, CNE, and Master CNE, but had zero hands on definitely paper... but we're talking the CCIE lab here. it's simply not possible (IMHO) to pass the lab without at least a minimum of hands-on (whether in a job or on practice equipment) Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. But of course, the market has adjusted accordingly and I see little reason to be a lab-rat now. Like I said, companies are seriously tightening up their interviews to ferret out the lab-rats and I consider that to be a good thing.Two friends of mine, for example, are basically lab-rats (Ok, they did have previous experience, but very little). They accomplished it by basically borrowing my lab and all my books. They can't find decent work, because they can't pass the newly tightened tech interviews. So they are back doing sys-admin work, which is what they had been doing before allt his. to give one the skills to pass. But I do agree with the premise that the main reason for the devaluing of the cert is the bad economy, and the lab-rats are a lesser consideration (still important, but lesser). But on the other hand, I think it is the case that the CCIE will probably never attain the status that it once did, simply because the we will probably never see another huge network buildout orgy like the dotcom boom again in our lifetime. So while I believe the networking industry will get better, people who thinks it's going to get back to, say, 1999, are just deluding themselves. Agreed I don't thik we'll see things back like there were a couple of years
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I agree with all of the people that because of the economy most CCIE's won't see big salaries from few years back. I also agree that paper CCIE doesn't really compare to a paper MCSE, SCSA or whatever else. A CCIE needs to have some hands-on. The problem is that lab testing has little to do with real life environment. On top of that, there is so much info out there on what's being tested on the lab that people have much work cut down for them to pass the tests. This creates a limit of what you really need to know for the lab and how you get to that level, this limit however is not how a CCIE will be judged in real life environment. So, yes the salaries are gone, and yes there are some CCIE's who will have trouble designing a simple network. I think as long as people don't cheat themselves they will know whether they are worthy of this certification. You need to take a look at yourself and forget about the little paper you put on the wall or on your cubicle. The paper means nothing, it's what's in you what really counts. And as far as that goes you can still make a great living being a CCIE ! CCIE #8472 Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43336t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Boy- I read all this about *money this and salary this etc* and I feel pretty much out of the loop. I think I have come to the conclusion that I am the *token* wannabe CCIE (at some point) who does what he does because he LIKES it.. Sure.. money is nice but my salary has bounced up and down a few times and I must say that generally speaking, life is more enjoyable at the lower salary with less stress and expectations. I spend many, many hours working with computers, networks, web pages etc because I'm am a technology junkie, I love what I do to make money and I want the certs for personal satisfaction. I dont brag about test scores(which have been good so far) and I like to design self-help tutorials for free as evidenced by the goodies on my site. This preoccupation with money is a waste of time and effort. Spend your time bettering yourself both technically speaking AND socially speaking and two things will happen. One, you will like yourself better as will those around you AND money will come along in unexpected ways. Just a humble opinion to be taken with a grain of salt. MikeS Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43338t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
You heard wrong... Larry Letterman Cisco Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Wow To: Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 2:18 PM Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] not sure if this is still true (or if it ever was) but i had heard that cisco has higher standards for certs for empolyees. That the passing score on most of the tests for an employee is higher than for the rest of us. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43342t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I believe you may be confusing this with the CCSI... I believe instructors require a higher pass rate to become CCSI certified...can anyone verify? Sean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Wow Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] not sure if this is still true (or if it ever was) but i had heard that cisco has higher standards for certs for empolyees. That the passing score on most of the tests for an employee is higher than for the rest of us. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_i d=703608keywo rds=+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43344t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
That I believe is true, for regular employees we get the same treatment as any one else on the passing scoreInstructors need a higher score. Larry Letterman Cisco Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Sean Knox To: Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 12:42 PM Subject: RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] I believe you may be confusing this with the CCSI... I believe instructors require a higher pass rate to become CCSI certified...can anyone verify? Sean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Wow Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] not sure if this is still true (or if it ever was) but i had heard that cisco has higher standards for certs for empolyees. That the passing score on most of the tests for an employee is higher than for the rest of us. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_i d=703608keywo rds=+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43345t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Inline Henry D. wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I agree with all of the people that because of the economy most CCIE's won't see big salaries from few years back. I also agree that paper CCIE doesn't really compare to a paper MCSE, SCSA or whatever else. A CCIE needs to have some hands-on. The problem is that lab testing has little to do with real life environment. On top of that, there is so much info out there on what's being tested on the lab that people have much work cut down for them to pass the tests. This creates a limit of what you really need to know for the lab and how you get to that level, this limit however is not how a CCIE will be judged in real life environment. Exactly. You can be the greatest lab-guy in the world and absolutely bomb in the real world. What you have stated is the very reason why I am loathe to use the term paper-CCIE, because there really is no such thing. On the other hand, there is absolutely and positively such a thing as a lab-rat CCIE (meaning a guy who holds the cert but has no or limited practical real-world networking experience). So, yes the salaries are gone, and yes there are some CCIE's who will have trouble designing a simple network. I think as long as people don't cheat themselves they will know whether they are worthy of this certification. You need to take a look at yourself and forget about the little paper you put on the wall or on your cubicle. The paper means nothing, it's what's in you what really counts. And as far as that goes you can still make a great living being a CCIE ! I think it's more accurate to say that you can still make a good living as a networking engineer, which may or may not include the CCIE. Again, like you said, it's really the knowledge that counts, not what pieces of paper you may have. Again, I know quite a few CCIE's, especially lab-rat ones, who can't find networking work. When you say ...you can still make a great living being a CCIE , I know what you're getting at, but taking that quote at face-value without reading the surrounding context perpetuates the myth that all you need to do is pass that lab-exam and all of a sudden all these dollars and job offers will come pouring out of the sky. It's just not like that - at least, not anymore, CCIE #8472 Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43347t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
You make many valid points. I appreciate your comments. I placed some comments inline. nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... For example, in the not-too-distant past, the CCIE was really a quite solid guarantee that a guy was a good networker. Maybe the guy didn't know, say, BGP (because he was an old-timer who passed the exam when the lab didn't have BGP and he never bothered to learn it since - this is another problem with the cert, but I digress), but basically you could note that he had a CCIE number and immediately take that to mean that he had a solid base of practical networking experience. No longer. Now during job interviews, whether you're a CCIE or not, you have to proceed further. For example, as a contractor, I ran recruiting for several companies and I ran into a significant number of candidates that held their CCIE who I would have considered not solid at all. By significant, something like 10-15% of those guys who had CCIE numbers over, say, 6000. I purposefully asked real-world questions that I knew were not on the lab (for example, explain how T-1 lines work, explain CEF vs. fast-switching) and I noted their responses. Many of them slam-dunked the questions. But some seriously fumbled them. And I mean seriously. One guy claimed that CEF was only available on the GSR. I see your point about people not skipping the tech interview because of CCIE. And I also agree that it's a good thing. After all, when 'lab rats' (as you call them) are applying for jobs, it just makes sense that one would give a tough interview to weed them out. However, one must ask themselves What is the purpose of the cert? Just like a college degree in, say Computer Science. The BS in CS doesn't guarantee an employer that the person has experience, say, with PERL. However, the degree indicates that this person can learn and understand the logic of programming, etc. I don't think the purpose of the CCIE (or any Cisco cert) is to guarentee knowledge of absolutely everything in networking. That's not possible. However, I believe that it does indicate an advanced level of understanding of network principles as well as knowledge of specific technologies (EIGRP, HSRP, DLSw+, etc). So, as in your example of the person that didn't learn BGP because it wasn't required for the cert, I have to say So what. That wasn't the point of the CCIE. The CCNP cert doesn't cover IS-IS, for example, but I would hope anyone with CCNP could sit down, read about IS-IS, know how to look up IS-IS related commands on Cisco's site, and then implement what needs to be implemented. That's, IMHO, the purpose of obtaining the cert. It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to buy a home lab. Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. I understand your differentiation between real-world hands-on and practice lab (lab rat) hands-on. I truly do. But, again, it's like the college degree thing. If a company wants someone who has experience, they'll interview and ask questions that only seasoned professionals could answer. But, if they want someone with a certain level of knowledge, demonstrated ability to learn new things, and the ability to find resources and answer questions, then that could be a seasoned professional or someone that's certified (or someone with both). On the flip side of your argument, I've met people that are trying to get into networking from the telco side, and could explain in great detail how a T1 works, but couldn't explain HSRP (a very simple thing to understand and setup) to save their life. Doesn't mean their stupid, just not exposed to it. And the cert provides exposure to these things, whether real world or lab rat experience I mean, really, does it matter if you setup HSRP in a lab or in the real-world? I think not... HSRP is HSRP I guess, when it comes down to it, I feel if you (the hiring person) wants someone that can explain CEF, which models have software CEF, which have hardware CEF, which 6500 blades are fabric enabled and which aren't just by their model number, then you're not looking for anything but sheer experience. So why blame the cert for not providing that background to a person, when that's not the point of the cert to begin with? Two friends of mine, for example, are basically lab-rats (Ok, they did have previous experience, but very little). They accomplished it by basically borrowing my lab and all my books. They can't find decent work, because they can't pass the newly tightened tech interviews. So they are back doing sys-admin work, which is what they had been doing
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I also agree with you on many points. But anyway, inline I see your point about people not skipping the tech interview because of CCIE. And I also agree that it's a good thing. After all, when 'lab rats' (as you call them) are applying for jobs, it just makes sense that one would give a tough interview to weed them out. However, one must ask themselves What is the purpose of the cert? Just like a college degree in, say Computer Science. The BS in CS doesn't guarantee an employer that the person has experience, say, with PERL. However, the degree indicates that this person can learn and understand the logic of programming, etc. I don't think the purpose of the CCIE (or any Cisco cert) is to guarentee knowledge of absolutely everything in networking. That's not possible. However, I believe that it does indicate an advanced level of understanding of network principles as well as knowledge of specific technologies (EIGRP, HSRP, DLSw+, etc). So, as in your example of the person that didn't learn BGP because it wasn't required for the cert, I have to say So what. That wasn't the point of the CCIE. The CCNP cert doesn't cover IS-IS, for example, but I would hope anyone with CCNP could sit down, read about IS-IS, know how to look up IS-IS related commands on Cisco's site, and then implement what needs to be implemented. That's, IMHO, the purpose of obtaining the cert. This is absolutely true, nobody can know everything, and the CCIE was never designed to do that. On the other hand, there is a major difference between somebody who admits he doesn't know the answer, but can probably look it up, and somebody who boldly states something that is flatly wrong. For example, with that guy I interviewed who claimed that CEF can only be run on a GSR, clearly this was a case where he was trying to snow me. Now I admit, I was trying to trick him (I deliberately pretended that I knew nothing about networks because I wanted to see what kinds of things he would say if he didn't think I was a networking guy myself), and boy, was he tricked. It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to buy a home lab. Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. I understand your differentiation between real-world hands-on and practice lab (lab rat) hands-on. I truly do. But, again, it's like the college degree thing. If a company wants someone who has experience, they'll interview and ask questions that only seasoned professionals could answer. But, if they want someone with a certain level of knowledge, demonstrated ability to learn new things, and the ability to find resources and answer questions, then that could be a seasoned professional or someone that's certified (or someone with both). On the flip side of your argument, I've met people that are trying to get into networking from the telco side, and could explain in great detail how a T1 works, but couldn't explain HSRP (a very simple thing to understand and setup) to save their life. Doesn't mean their stupid, just not exposed to it. And the cert provides exposure to these things, whether real world or lab rat experience I mean, really, does it matter if you setup HSRP in a lab or in the real-world? I think not... HSRP is HSRP I guess, when it comes down to it, I feel if you (the hiring person) wants someone that can explain CEF, which models have software CEF, which have hardware CEF, which 6500 blades are fabric enabled and which aren't just by their model number, then you're not looking for anything but sheer experience. So why blame the cert for not providing that background to a person, when that's not the point of the cert to begin with? Two friends of mine, for example, are basically lab-rats (Ok, they did have previous experience, but very little). They accomplished it by basically borrowing my lab and all my books. They can't find decent work, because they can't pass the newly tightened tech interviews. So they are back doing sys-admin work, which is what they had been doing before allt his. It depends on what kind of questions the tightened down interviewers are asking. CCIE has never covered everything. You're suggesting that the new interviews cover more thorough knowledge and require more hands-on work experience to get through. And again, I re-state my opinion that that's not what the cert is for. I mean, my boss used to do the hands-on (we're talking years of hands-on) network design/implemenation of the very network I work on everyday now, but he's still blown away that I (the lowly CCNP) am constantly blowing him
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
I passed the CCIE written when I was a Cisco employee. I think the passing score was higher due to my employment. I may be remembering wrong, but I don't think so. Priscilla At 02:33 PM 5/5/02, Larry Letterman wrote: You heard wrong... Larry Letterman Cisco Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Wow To: Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 2:18 PM Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] not sure if this is still true (or if it ever was) but i had heard that cisco has higher standards for certs for empolyees. That the passing score on most of the tests for an employee is higher than for the rest of us. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43360t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
At 02:05 PM 5/5/02, Mike Sweeney wrote: Boy- I read all this about *money this and salary this etc* and I feel pretty much out of the loop. I think I have come to the conclusion that I am the *token* wannabe CCIE (at some point) who does what he does because he LIKES it.. Sure.. money is nice but my salary has bounced up and down a few times and I must say that generally speaking, life is more enjoyable at the lower salary with less stress and expectations. I spend many, many hours working with computers, networks, web pages etc because I'm am a technology junkie, I love what I do to make money and I want the certs for personal satisfaction. Hear, hear. If you're doing IT certification because somebody told you it was a lucrative field, you're in it for the wrong reason. Of course, I live somewhere where the cost of living is low, so it's easy for me to say. But all the wise career counselors will tell you to do what you love. The money will follow. Priscilla I dont brag about test scores(which have been good so far) and I like to design self-help tutorials for free as evidenced by the goodies on my site. This preoccupation with money is a waste of time and effort. Spend your time bettering yourself both technically speaking AND socially speaking and two things will happen. One, you will like yourself better as will those around you AND money will come along in unexpected ways. Just a humble opinion to be taken with a grain of salt. MikeS Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43362t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
You got to be kidding 3-6 months for CCIE. It's taking us labrats at Network Academies two years to make CCNP. Maybe for those who are already CCNPs. On Sat, 4 May 2002 20:27:31 -0400 Steven A. Ridder writes: Hey, it's a good sign that they're hiring, but I can guarantee that no recent college grad can get a CCIE in 6 months with little to no experience. It must be a typo. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608ke ywo rds=+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43366t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Okay... final comments (inline) . but this time they're all in agreement (imagine that, people actually exchanging blows and instead getting upset and childish, we managed to patiently see what each other was saying and came to a common understanding. what a concept I applaud you nrf =) nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On the other hand, there is a major difference between somebody who admits he doesn't know the answer, but can probably look it up, and somebody who boldly states something that is flatly wrong. For example, with that guy I interviewed who claimed that CEF can only be run on a GSR, clearly this was a case where he was trying to snow me. Now I admit, I was trying to trick him (I deliberately pretended that I knew nothing about networks because I wanted to see what kinds of things he would say if he didn't think I was a networking guy myself), and boy, was he tricked. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Regardless of ones knowledge, some people won't admit when they're wrong nor will admit when they don't know. Those people may as well have no knowledge or experience because I wouldn't hire them either. My mentor is a gentleman that I watched go from a part time helpdesk operator to MSCE, then to CCNA/CCNP then CCIE. He was (and still is) a major influence on me. He's a very down to earth guy, who doesn't have a mean (or deceitful) bone in his body. He has always been the type to say I don't know, but I'll check into it. and he was never the type to say Well, I'm a CCIE, so you'd better bow down, etc. etc.. As someone who is looking to hire a good worker, I totally understand (and like) your approach (of feigning ignorance to test ones knowledge and moreso attitude). Kudos. I think we're both dancing around the main issue here. It's really not so much whether a CCIE happens to know or not know this-and-that fact. That is only a symptom of a much larger problem, which is that the CCIE, probably because of its history of success, has fostered a 'attitude of arrogance' about it. What I mean by that is that there are still a significant number of people, both CCIE's and CCIE-wanna-be's, who think that the cert is the end of the road in terms of learning and professional development. There are a significant number of people who have an attitude that once they pass their lab exam, three things occur: #1 - they are automatically entitled to a high-paying networking job #2 - they are automatically more knowledgeable than anybody who doesn't hold that cert (for example, that one dude with the CEF and the GSR - he basically stated, not in so many words, but in effect, that since he was a CCIE and he thought I wasn't, then his answer must be right). #3 - they can coast in terms of their professional development at least for the near-future, and possibly for the rest of their career. For example, one of my buddies once said that after he passed the lab, he wasn't ever going to pick up another networking text book ever again, and I hope he was kidding, but the way he said it, I'm not so sure... Again, I think you've nailed it Unfortunately many times people get one or all three symptoms you described above. I did read one post here from someone saying something to the effect of what's all this talk about money. I though it was doing something YOU LIKE to do. I think that: although there are some who love networking for what it is that fall into the trap of having the bad attitude you pointed out, I think mostly the people who feel entitled to a high salary, etc, are the people that aren't in networking for the love networking. Kinda like people that become doctors or lawyers because of the $$$.. they end up hating it because of all of the continuing reading, learning, etc. Whereas people who went that way because they genuinely like it don't hate it (I know it's a generalization and there are exceptions, but I think this is a fairly accurate statement.) So I don't think anybody has any serious problem with a guy who might become a lab-rat CCIE, but admits that he is one and still diligently continues to learn. Likewise many people with years of experience also get an attitude and end up in the same boat.. the attitude sword cuts both ways... (affects both those with experience and certs) And naturally you will find even old-school CCIE's who don't know everything and admit this. I don't have any problem at all with such people, and I doubt anybody else would either. The problem comes with guys who pass and think that they now have all the answers and therefore they don't really need to learn anything or work hard anymore. In short - they get arrogant, and that's just not cool. Unfortunately, I know one such person who went thru a bunch of Oracle certs so he could get a high paying job. He got an attitude, hated doing DBA stuff, and now
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Amen to that. I see so many people chasing a paycheck and living a horrible life. I see a common thread with people wanting to know what's on a test just so they can study only those things to pass a test. If that is your goal, you might gain a cert, but you will miss a tremendous amount of valuable knowledge that isn't on a test, but is great to know. Ask youself do you get up and look forward to working. If not, ask what could you do that would make you get up and look forward to going to work and pursue that. I lived a miserable life as a mechanical engineer. I only looked forward to going to work when people were scheduled to get new computers and I was expected swap them out, or when we were doing a network change. It finally clicked that networking is what I should be doing, not mech. eng. I made the change and can say without a doubt that it was the best decision ever. As I sit hear with a beer in my hand and a newly completed upgrade to KDE3 on my PC, I think wow, I wish I had more time before I go to bed to play around. Now that is LOVING what you do. Thanks Larry PS If the format is screwed up on this message its due to the upgrade to KDE3. its my first post from KMail so I dont know how a mailing list will handle its format. On Sunday 05 May 2002 09:28 pm, Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: At 02:05 PM 5/5/02, Mike Sweeney wrote: Boy- I read all this about *money this and salary this etc* and I feel pretty much out of the loop. I think I have come to the conclusion that I am the *token* wannabe CCIE (at some point) who does what he does because he LIKES it.. Sure.. money is nice but my salary has bounced up and down a few times and I must say that generally speaking, life is more enjoyable at the lower salary with less stress and expectations. I spend many, many hours working with computers, networks, web pages etc because I'm am a technology junkie, I love what I do to make money and I want the certs for personal satisfaction. Hear, hear. If you're doing IT certification because somebody told you it was a lucrative field, you're in it for the wrong reason. Of course, I live somewhere where the cost of living is low, so it's easy for me to say. But all the wise career counselors will tell you to do what you love. The money will follow. Priscilla I dont brag about test scores(which have been good so far) and I like to design self-help tutorials for free as evidenced by the goodies on my site. This preoccupation with money is a waste of time and effort. Spend your time bettering yourself both technically speaking AND socially speaking and two things will happen. One, you will like yourself better as will those around you AND money will come along in unexpected ways. Just a humble opinion to be taken with a grain of salt. MikeS Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43368t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
It all depends on the person and in turn, their motivation, prior experience and current knowledge. It can be done (although I think the end result would be ridiculous). If you love networking and technology, you're a huge step ahead. Sean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of FREDL L AZARES Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 8:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] You got to be kidding 3-6 months for CCIE. It's taking us labrats at Network Academies two years to make CCNP. Maybe for those who are already CCNPs. On Sat, 4 May 2002 20:27:31 -0400 Steven A. Ridder writes: Hey, it's a good sign that they're hiring, but I can guarantee that no recent college grad can get a CCIE in 6 months with little to no experience. It must be a typo. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_i d=703608ke ywo rds=+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43371t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Hear, hear. If you're doing IT certification because somebody told you it was a lucrative field, you're in it for the wrong reason. Of course, I live somewhere where the cost of living is low, so it's easy for me to say. But all the wise career counselors will tell you to do what you love. The money will follow. All the wise career counsellors STILL work for a living... There's absolutely nothing wrong with being in it for the money...we all are, some admit it and some don't. It's indeed a wise strategy to pursue financial security, then you can afford to do the stuff u love. Priscilla = Nnanna Obuba CCIE # 6586 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43372t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
You have crystallized my thoughts perfectly. I would always prefer to work with a lab rat that knows how to find stuff then a seasoned CCIE who thinks that google is just another yahoo. -- baba Michael L. Williams wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... You make many valid points. I appreciate your comments. I placed some comments inline. nrf wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... For example, in the not-too-distant past, the CCIE was really a quite solid guarantee that a guy was a good networker. Maybe the guy didn't know, say, BGP (because he was an old-timer who passed the exam when the lab didn't have BGP and he never bothered to learn it since - this is another problem with the cert, but I digress), but basically you could note that he had a CCIE number and immediately take that to mean that he had a solid base of practical networking experience. No longer. Now during job interviews, whether you're a CCIE or not, you have to proceed further. For example, as a contractor, I ran recruiting for several companies and I ran into a significant number of candidates that held their CCIE who I would have considered not solid at all. By significant, something like 10-15% of those guys who had CCIE numbers over, say, 6000. I purposefully asked real-world questions that I knew were not on the lab (for example, explain how T-1 lines work, explain CEF vs. fast-switching) and I noted their responses. Many of them slam-dunked the questions. But some seriously fumbled them. And I mean seriously. One guy claimed that CEF was only available on the GSR. I see your point about people not skipping the tech interview because of CCIE. And I also agree that it's a good thing. After all, when 'lab rats' (as you call them) are applying for jobs, it just makes sense that one would give a tough interview to weed them out. However, one must ask themselves What is the purpose of the cert? Just like a college degree in, say Computer Science. The BS in CS doesn't guarantee an employer that the person has experience, say, with PERL. However, the degree indicates that this person can learn and understand the logic of programming, etc. I don't think the purpose of the CCIE (or any Cisco cert) is to guarentee knowledge of absolutely everything in networking. That's not possible. However, I believe that it does indicate an advanced level of understanding of network principles as well as knowledge of specific technologies (EIGRP, HSRP, DLSw+, etc). So, as in your example of the person that didn't learn BGP because it wasn't required for the cert, I have to say So what. That wasn't the point of the CCIE. The CCNP cert doesn't cover IS-IS, for example, but I would hope anyone with CCNP could sit down, read about IS-IS, know how to look up IS-IS related commands on Cisco's site, and then implement what needs to be implemented. That's, IMHO, the purpose of obtaining the cert. It's certainly not a big joke, it's just that yes you really can pass the lab without experience. Granted, you need dedication and you need money to buy a home lab. Exactly - you need practice equipment. So you don't need a real job that provides hands-on equipment. You just need a lab, a lot of time, and a lot of money for exam attempts (or a willingness to go into debt). But a networking job? Not really, not to pass the lab. I understand your differentiation between real-world hands-on and practice lab (lab rat) hands-on. I truly do. But, again, it's like the college degree thing. If a company wants someone who has experience, they'll interview and ask questions that only seasoned professionals could answer. But, if they want someone with a certain level of knowledge, demonstrated ability to learn new things, and the ability to find resources and answer questions, then that could be a seasoned professional or someone that's certified (or someone with both). On the flip side of your argument, I've met people that are trying to get into networking from the telco side, and could explain in great detail how a T1 works, but couldn't explain HSRP (a very simple thing to understand and setup) to save their life. Doesn't mean their stupid, just not exposed to it. And the cert provides exposure to these things, whether real world or lab rat experience I mean, really, does it matter if you setup HSRP in a lab or in the real-world? I think not... HSRP is HSRP I guess, when it comes down to it, I feel if you (the hiring person) wants someone that can explain CEF, which models have software CEF, which have hardware CEF, which 6500 blades are fabric enabled and which aren't just by their model number, then you're not looking for anything but sheer experience. So why blame the cert for not providing that background to a person, when that's not the point of the cert to begin with? Two
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
not sure if this is still true (or if it ever was) but i had heard that cisco has higher standards for certs for empolyees. That the passing score on most of the tests for an employee is higher than for the rest of us. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43307t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
If this is true then it represents an even worse devaluation of the CCIE than what has happened already. Not only will there be those lab-rat CCIE's out there with zero experience that are being churned out already, but now Cisco itself will be pumping out CCIE's with as little as 3 months experience. This is even more evidence that the cert's best days are behind it. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43310t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
Typo - I don't think so! I knew a guy who was hired by Cisco to go overseas because of his language skills. This was just before the BIG Cisco layoff's started. Anyhow, he went from zero to CCNP in a couple of months and then became a statistic. But it went something like this. Live, breath and eat trainingThrow you into the TAC and then live, breath, and eat training. Throw you into the TAC and then live, breath, and eat training. Kinda get the idea. Don't take my word for it. Let me quote Michael Purcell, Quadruple CCIE #4110 I joined the TAC (Cisco Technical Assistance Center) straight out of graduate school in September 1997. Being a TAC engineer was like trying to drink from a fire hydrant because of all the technologies and products we were required to learn. So, after I felt I had a handle on those ten months later, I began studying for the CCIE lab. As fate would have it, I passed the Routing and Switching CCIE lab on my one-year anniversary date with Cisco, and was an SE less than one month later. cisco.com/warp/public/625/ccie/ccie_program/spotlight.html He only studied two months for the lab specifically he says. So much for two years of hands on experience.. Remember when you have full-time free training with unlimited access to ALL the equipment plus the mentoring of in-house CCIE's how can you NOT achieve CCIE quickly. The whole purpose of this job listed at Cisco is to become a CCIE. The only thing they don't tell you up front is that you'll probably be paid at $.50cent's on the dollar for what a regular CCIE earns - that's why they want college kids is my guess. Just makes good business sense I suppose. Instead of hiring back all those high priced and well seasoned CCIE's that were laid off from Cisco, just quickly pump out some new one's at half price!!! Ring... Ring... Ring Hello, this is Mary with Cisco CCIE Sales. May I help you? Yah, I'd like to get the two for a dollar order please. Oh and can I get that to go too! :-) -Eric CCIE# 54,783 :-( ha ha ha - Original Message - From: Steven A. Ridder To: Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306] Hey, it's a good sign that they're hiring, but I can guarantee that no recent college grad can get a CCIE in 6 months with little to no experience. It must be a typo. -- RFC 1149 Compliant. Get in my head: http://sar.dynu.com Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43319t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE in 3-6 Months from cisco Interesting [7:43306]
It's not in Cisco's best interest to crank out CCIEs and I doubt that's what they're doing (or going to do) After all, this is a job posting, and I doubt they're going to hire and train enough people to make an impact in the total number of CCIEs out there. (i.e. they may hire 5, 10, hell maybe even 50 people, say, and so you're only taking 5/10/50 more CCIEs on top of the 7400 existing CCIEs ... not enough to impact the overall market/demand for CCIEs, IMHO). I agree with another poster here that, even spending everyday at work for Cisco studying isn't enough to get through the new CCIE written, much less the lab. As far as the devaluing of the CCIE, I've see ramblings of this ever since I joined Groupstudy, and I believe that it's mostly just alot of talk. Sure, CCIEs aren't pulling in as high a salary as they were 2 years ago, but most of that is due to the dot-bomb thing coming to an end as well as the job market/economy of the last year or so. Two things can devalue the cert: The number of CCIEs skyrocketing and/or people being able to attain the CCIE without being qualified. I don't think anyone will argue that the CCIE written/lab combo pretty much keeps paper CCIEs from becoming a reality. As far as the number of CCIEs skyrocketing, if I recall correctly, when I first started working on Cisco certification there were around 6000 CCIEs. Now there are around 7400 (worldwide). That's certainly not skyrocketing. Compare that to MSCEs where there was such a flood of new MSCEs on the market that simply supply/demand took over, and all of a sudden MSCEs were a dime a dozen (no offense to people with MSCEs, just making a point about the numbers). Also, I don't agree with the claim that the CCIEs best days are behind it. Although many felt that the new one-day lab was going to open the floodgates for paper CCIEs, I don't recall reading any posts by people saying the new lab was a breeze. Also, any of the level of difficulty that may have been lost going to the one-day format is definitely going to be made up for by the new format of the written. As has been posted here more recently (by either Bernard or Dennis right after they took the beta), the failure rate of the written is definitely going to go up with this new exam. Just my 2 cents Mike W. nwo wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... If this is true then it represents an even worse devaluation of the CCIE than what has happened already. Not only will there be those lab-rat CCIE's out there with zero experience that are being churned out already, but now Cisco itself will be pumping out CCIE's with as little as 3 months experience. This is even more evidence that the cert's best days are behind it. Johnzaggat wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Join Cisco and get CCIE in 3-6 months. Must be a typo. http://www.cisco.com/pcgi-bin/jobs/JobAgent?rm=jobdetailreq_id=703608keywo rds=+ Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=43321t=43306 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
