Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 11/1/00 7:36 PM, Chmouel Boudjnah at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: funny thing, you took us as amatory, and you have no clue of what the words 'operating-system development' mean... Note I didn't use the word 'amatur', and regarding the troubling and complex task of operating system developmnet, it seems other are well able to put out versions of Linux that are not as trouble-prone as any new release of Mandrake appears to be. I just love it when they gloss over their very real troubles (a quick look at the subjects in this mailing lists corroborates that), and decide to get glib with people pointing out their issues. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Or how about this post the "source code" for the cd label somewhere on the website (in the devel area) and then sell the printed documentation/source cd on the website. How it would work 1 Anybody with bandwidth and a burner could make a set of "mandrake" cds 2 The biggest benefit of the Retail box is the printed Manuals and CD #3 3 it would be fairly easy to put a "random" amount in the existing form also Robert L Martin
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Thursday 02 November 2000 06:09 am, wrote: For once us Europeans got the better deal by paying more for our stuff. You americans can't expect the same level of customer service if you pay about half of what we all pay. Mark Hillary I'll say it one more time. Buy cheap CD's from cheapbytes, lsl, lland, any other source of cheap CD's worldwide, etc and then send a check to: MandrakeSoft, Inc. : 2400 N. Lincoln Ave - Altadena, CA 91001 - USA MandrakeSoft S.A. : 43, rue d'Aboukir - 75002 Paris - France Until MandrakeSoft gets over feelin like they're beggin, an' puts a credit card donation link on their site, that's the viable option. It works, an maybe jus maybe, that'll cut MacMillan out of screwin' the deal, and we can quit this piss'n contest over what MandrakeSoft should'a could'a would'a done before we loose all the quality posters from this list. -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I would contribute it this option were available. Jim On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, you wrote: How about another pricing plan here? Direct sale from MandrakeSoft on new versions. I want to start installing Mandrake on computer's for friends and family but I have no need of the limitations of the "beginners" boxed set, nor the price tag of "deluxe". I would rather make my own ISO and work out a direct payment plan to MandrakeSoft. Yes believe it or not, some of us want to send some money your way, but that Macmillian crap doesn't cut it. That's what I do. I get the cheap CD's (cheapbytes, lsl, lland, etc.) and send a check to MandrakeSoft. Makes a lot more sense than supporting MacMillan. I've also suggested to Mandrake ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that they should put a 'Donations Glady Accepted' link on their website with the option to charge a credit card. MandrakeSoft, Inc. : 2400 N. Lincoln Ave - Altadena, CA 91001 - USA MandrakeSoft S.A. : 43, rue d'Aboukir - 75002 Paris - France
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Wed Nov 01, 2000 at 12:45:48PM -0800, mdk mailin list (Harry) wrote: on 10/31/00 11:07 PM, Randy Welch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also installed it on my dual at work without no incident. With 7.1: [...] Harry... if you have a problem getting 7.1 to work, you should take it to expert list. This list is for discussing cooker and the newly released 7.2 final. Issues with 7.1 have nothing to do with a discussion about 7.2. Have you even tried 7.2? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net 1024D/FE6F2AFD 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD - Danen Consulting Serviceswww.danen.net, www.freezer-burn.org - MandrakeSoft, Inc. www.linux-mandrake.com Current Linux uptime: 8 days 9 hours 46 minutes.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Bill, I appreciate your response, and apparently someone even tried to contact me by phone (I am sorry I was out all day yesterday). I find this a refreshing surprise. I realize the reasons behind the decision, perhaps better than some; but none the less I found the inclusion of KDE 1.99 disturbing. I have found a personal solution though and would like to let you know, that I am again suggesting people purchase Macmillan Mandrake, but that they allow me to supply updated CD's. As I mentioned in my original email my primary reason for suggesting your product instead of just cutting CD's is your wonderful packaging. I would like to add that although I am disappointed with this situation (albeit not entirely of Macmillan's making or Mandrakesoft's either), I have not given up on your product. I have CC'ed this to the cooker group so that others might see the positive response (in my opinion) that I have received from you. I thank you once again for your response. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Thanks for your comments on the cooker mailing list. Placing blame on Macmillan for these decisions was quite wrong, but you didn't have all the facts at the time of your post. I hope you don't feel this way still, as I want to insure there is a positive relationship between Macmillan and MandrakeSoft customers. Please let me know if you have any questions or if you need additional clarification. Regards, Bill Gardner * Bill Gardner, Acquisitions Editor Macmillan Software [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.macmillansoftware.com/ 317-581-3500 x3092 * -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 8:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: McKay, Jeannie; pr Subject: Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers Not only can we warn people, we can let Macmillan know how we feel about it. I personally have sent over 50 people in just the last 6 months (I started keeping records) to buy Mandrake 7.0/7.1 at Staples here in town. I know I could have burned them a copy (for some I did) but for the rest having a manual (as good "cough,cough" as it is) saved some of "my" hair. I know that at least 32 of them did follow my consultations and purchased and installed it. Because of my becoming aware of Macmillan doing this though, I am not only telling everyone from now not to buy Macmillan packaged Mandrake; but I am also emailing everyone on my list and telling them "not" to buy the Macmillan 7.2. I not only don't want them to think that the Macmillan packaged 7.2 is representative of MandrakeSoft's work, but it would reflect bad on me, and as a professional I can not and will not let that happen. So I am CC'ing this to the only email addresses I can find on Macmillan's website that I believe are pertinent, as well as filling a customer service request. If anyone has better email addresses please let me know. Also I would encourage anyone else who finds this disturbing to do the same. You can't always expect a company to act responsibly, ethically, or morally; you can only let them know that you are taking them to task for their actions. I would like to point out that although I find this a grievous error on Macmillan's part, I also recognize that it could have been worse; I just want them to know that they have taken what I regarded as a convenient distribution of excellent software, and rendered it useless to me and others. Also I would like to ask that anyone who does this doesn't do so in a manner as to cause more disdain for us, by doing so in a unprofessional manner; as I believe that even though the linux revolution is progressing at an alarming rate of expansion and acceptance, the number of zealots that are visible to the press, computing community and industry is simply too high. Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? On Sunday 29 October 2000 16:00, you wrote: Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it Yeah, but the difference is Mandrake did that and they didn't call it RedHat anymore! MacMillan is distribuing "Mandrake Linux 7.2" only it isn't! it's 7.2rc1 or thereabout. If they are going to do that they need to change the name to MacMillan linux 1.0 or whatever. They don't *need* to change the name. Unless MandrakeSoft didn't give MacMillian permission to use their trademarked name (mea culpa about the "copyright" screw-up on my part), there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US marke
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Is the only difference bettween the two is that one contains KDE2pre and the other KDE2. If so then what the hell is the problem, there is not even that much difference bettween the two versions of KDE and also KDE2pre works fine, I run it on Mandrake 7.1and it's fine. Plus it takes nothing to updated it. Anyway from what I have here the KDE people are planing on put a bug update out in about 3weeks anyway (2.0.1 or something) so if you are that worried about the bugs in KDE you will be updating to that version anyway whether or not the final Retail version had KDE final on it. Plus Mandrake is a great distro, and its not their fault that Walmart pushed their hand. So everyone stop bloody bitching about something that realy doesn't matter and try to find real problems. Mark Hillary Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? On Sunday 29 October 2000 16:00, you wrote: Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it Yeah, but the difference is Mandrake did that and they didn't call it RedHat anymore! MacMillan is distribuing "Mandrake Linux 7.2" only it isn't! it's 7.2rc1 or thereabout. If they are going to do that they need to change the name to MacMillan linux 1.0 or whatever. They don't *need* to change the name. Unless MandrakeSoft didn't give MacMillian permission to use their trademarked name (mea culpa about the "copyright" screw-up on my part), there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US market system and legal system go by what is legal, not by what is right. The only thing we can do is to get the word out: the thing called "Mandrake 7.2" that is sold in Wal-Mart is not the real Mandrake 7.2. -- Graham Percival
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Consider this then... the retail version is 7.2, no question. The ISO's are the 7.2 Download Edition, or maybe 7.2+updates, but I think an ISO name of mandrake-7.2-download-edition-cd1.iso is a little long... =) --- to cut the confusion why not do this: On the box say near the ISBN put a sticker saying "This box contains ISO Dates ??/??/" Thus telling which iso the cds are from. Side note best thing to do is Not buy at all from WalMart and buy the deluxe version. The drakes RHI will send a corrected CD if you have the Deluxe version. Robert L Martin
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Thursday 02 November 2000 06:32, you wrote: Is the only difference bettween the two is that one contains KDE2pre and the other KDE2. No there are other differences but the problem isn't the included pakcages having different versions but that the box itself didn't portray in any way that what you were buying was any different from what you were downloading. And both the download version and the store version were labled Mandrake 7.2 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.penguinfarm.com/ ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
For once us Europeans got the better deal by paying more for our stuff. You americans can't expect the same level of customer service if you pay about half of what we all pay. Mark Hillary
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is the only difference bettween the two is that one contains KDE2pre and the other KDE2. What is your source for that information? It simply is not true. -- Regards, Ron. [AU]
Re: wishes to Mandrake for future [Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers]
On Wednesday 01 November 2000 15:01, Pixel wrote: | Vadim Plessky [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | c) are you able to assemble Linux Mandrake on MIPS architecture? Hope | so. | | just wondering how big we need to be to achieve all this. I know going I wish Mandrake to become BIG, really _B_I_G_ in revenues. But better not to be too big with number of people, from my experience... Matrix management structure with several cost-centers/business units can be very helpful. You are doing excelllent job, amaazing!... Keep it going! | corporate makes a lot of money, just hoping we can keep the mandrake on | desktop in the meantime. redhat has gone corporate+embedded, turbolinux is | corporate, SuSE is in between. The only big linux that is really desktop is | Corel. Hope we won't have to leave them the field! I think a lot of people | agree with this :-) | you can't leave corporate "as is". You need some good customers, and even not just to put their names on "Fame Board" but to test your technology and proove stability reliability of Linux. What about France Telecom and French Railroads? I believe these are customers who can benefit from LM. Just test installation of 500 computers with LM... :-) | All i hope is that we can stay opensource and even opendevelopment. Only | RedHat is all opensource (not totally opendevelopment, but neither are we | :-( Maybe also connectiva (caldera is not, suse a little, turbolinux is | not, easylinux is not...) Hope so. Let's see how SCO deal will come out for Caldera, and what will happen finally with Corel. From "outside" point of view alliance with SuSE can be helpful for both Mandrake and SuSE. a little bit more about corporate market. Yes, it's difficult to convinience somebody to upgrade Windows PCs to KDE2 (while I am trying now with one friend of mine :-) May be I will try to convinience him at least for dual-boot install... 50 pcs, not too small company. Apache is ready and it is here. You can sell it to ISP. As about added value, I am unfortunately not very familiar what it can be in this case. Linux as router/firewall is also rather popular aplication, don't know if somebody try to sell Linux in such pre-configured variant together with x86box and several Ethernet cards. By the way, are Gigabit Ethernet cards supported by LM? And, I20 technology (Intelligent Input Output)? You will find a lot of this cool stuff in HP camp. -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html (Russian)
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Hello folks- Downloaded the release 7.2, and seems to be OK so far. I DO have a question for the group about ide-scsi. I'm using an external CD-RW which uses a PCMCIA controller card. I have been unable to use it with ide-scsi, and I think that the reason is that the ide-scsi is loaded before the PCMCIA services start, so it's not there at boot time. If I have the computer's DVD-ROM drive use ide-scsi, it works, but only if ide1=autotune is off. If it's there, ide-scsi doesn't see it. Is there a way to have the PCMCIA card IDE controller use ide-scsi? I HAVE created the link from /dev/cdrom2 to /dev/scd0. The installer knows that it should use it - LILO's option line is " hde=ide-scsi ide0=autotune ide1=autotune ide2=autotune" Anyone come up against this before?
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 8:37 AM, Robert L Martin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MICROSOFT DOES NOT PUT KNOWN BETAS ON SALE SO WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING THE FOLKS THAT IN PART PAY YOUR SALERIES FOR WANTING TO DO SO??? Yes, they do, except they call it a 'beta' - then again, come to consider every version of Windows, the release versions sure felt like beta as well.. so I guess they are the same. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Wednesday 01 November 2000 08:27, Jason Straight wrote: | On Tuesday 31 October 2000 11:54, you wrote: | Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | So how could the retail version be newer/better? That's simply | impossible, and our best customer support is to put the final kde2 | version on the download edition; think about it: we could have put the | kde-1.99 in the download edition to prevent from such comparisons with | the retail version. We simply could't provide such a bad service to our | users, just because time schedule is missing a couple of weeks! It was | possible to put kde-2.0 final in 7.2 on the web so we put the update in | the version. | | We appreciate this, kde 1.99 in rc had it's issues. Let's face it if it | didn't there would have been any need to change to 2.0. I totally agree | with different versions, couldn't care less about it, I do care that I had | no way of knowing what to expect. IMHO, even KDE2-1.94 was stable enough. (just remember: Mandrake's kdebase-1.94-7mdk is around 6-7 days newer then "generic" kdebase-1.94 "Beta" or "RC1", because Chris Molnar is updating it every day or even several times per day; so was kdebase(libs,support)-1.99. I am wondering which exact version (-1mdk? -5mdk) is in LM Walmart Edition, but, believe me, it has Mandrake patches/fixes against latest CVS to that date) KDE2-1.91, 1.92 - these were unstable... -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html (Russian)
wishes to Mandrake for future [Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers]
On Wednesday 01 November 2000 08:27, Jason Straight wrote: | On Tuesday 31 October 2000 11:54, you wrote: | A point to clear: not MY nor developpers' decision here. I'm just taking | time here to put up some explanations, because I'm feeling really sad | that you all guys on this list begin to consider us as lyers and bad | customers-related behaviour company.. | | We are sad too, and that's why we are still here writing, not on a debian | or bsd list now. We need you to keep us informed of the versioning | differences, a lot of us are your best sales people, I don't only use | Mandrake, I preach it. And a lot of people in this area know I know my | share about this stuff and take my word for it. Agree on that. People here on Cooker list are best sales force for Mandrake. Mandrake, please keep them happy like: :::-))) without these people you will not be able to test next LM version... In long-term, I'd like to wish MandrakeSoft: 1) try to focus more on corporate needs Let me explain. I am really impressed with Cooker. I can say that just before August this year I couldn't imagine that such a thing can exist. You have latest stable Linux installed, and can upgrade to newer version on _daily_ basis. Amaazing!! But, commercial world is different. Most companies upgrade computers (and software) once per 3 years. It's very expensive to keep MIS people who will update it once per 3 months. (I mean companies with at least 100 people) Cost of Ownership comes mostly of this people, not of hardware it runs on. Believe me, it is not a problem to pay $50 per each workplace for such companies. (don't know if per copy payment applicable to Linux) Tools to make auto install on 100 workstations (via Remote Wake-Up and Install) will bring you new customers. Don't know if it is implemented in Linux. You removed Expert setup from LM Walmart edition? - Right. Can you make a special app which will allow admin edit such install script and apply it automatically to every of such 100 workstations? You can put it in LM Server and charge exra money for it. Not huge, but $200 looks like very reasonable. 2) plan better release dates I'm afraid to make somebody angry, but let's face it: Microsoft is very clever with product launches. August 22 (Windows 95 release) and Sep. 14th (Windows ME release) are very _clever_ dates. Most people have vacation in August. With fresh forces you return to your workplace. And. Hoops! New operating system out. Very handy! Of course with launch mid. of September you are on time for all Retail outlets promotions (including Christams). 3) recruit KDE programmers, to speed up KDE development While I am amazed with speed of KDE development (I estimate it is 2-3 times faster then MS developments), it's not fast enough to catch up on MS Windows. Just because lack of human resources. KDE frontend for Apache, system configuration tools come to my mind. Koffice also should improve significantly to be adopted in corporations, not just in SOHO. 4) plan your Itanium and AMD Sladgehammer launches. Linux (as is, 2.2 kernel) has at least one killing application: Apache. Hope KDE2 will be another killer app. Next chance Linux has is upcoming Itanium and AMD 64-bit Sladgehammer. Looks like MS is significantly delayed with 64-bit Windows for Itanium. That's Linux chance to go in high-end and mid-range servers. From other side, MS will not optimize its 64-bit Windows for AMD. It's your chance. (of course, you depend on gcc 3.0 for that... Any way to speed up its development?) So I would say next release of LM (7.3 or 8.0) should be connected not to KDE 2.1/3.0 (or Gnome 2.0, next Apache, etc.) but to major processor upgrade. People pay premium for latest CPU's. You will be able to charge premium for LM for those systems. 5) plan your corporate Sales Activity (I know it is wrong place to write about, just forward this to your Sales Team) I was searching in Internet for key success stories for Linux. The only reasonable enough story which I found was RedHat deal selling 600 server packages to Toyota Motor (US). Well, it's quite good reference and good deal, indeed. What's funny with that that Compaq was claiming this as Compaq's deal. (guess redhat was installed on Compaq servers) And Compaq claims to be biggest seller of Linux servers (14000 for 1999) that's why next advise follows: 6) make pre-installed deals with major (and not major) PC Server Manufacturers a) RedHat dropped support for Alpha? Good for you. Go to Compaq and make a deal for Compaq Alpha with Linux Mandrake. Just look on IBM site: they have special pricing for IBM S/390 mainframes with Linux pre-installed (up to 30% lower price!) Another place for you to think: Samsung. Samsung manufacturers Alpha processors. I guess some companies assemble workstations and servers on it. Go to Samsung, offer them partnership. Or, at least, you will know who are their customers and can negotiate with them. b) Sun
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
There is information here http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php3?sid=20001031032501 About the different versions - I think something like this, ahead of release to stores, with a post on Mandrake Mailing lists would have been great help in discerning the differences in packages before people started buying Wal-Mart's distro and got confused/pissed. -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Sad development, but Mandrake is becoming more and more like Microsoft. Or perhaps Mandrake is becoming more and more like a successful business. I'm sorry, crusades as for people who don't have to support themselves. Witness Richard Stallman. He's a crusader, not a businessman, and he's been broke and on a soapbox for 20 years now. Over the years I've sent the FSF money and cajoled various bosses into sending them money just because I believe in the cause, but I've never taken up my sleeping bag and tent and gone off to join him. I doubt seriously any of you here would do that either. Anyone who wants to just tell your spouse/significant other, "We're casting away our worldly possessions and joining the crusade today." I'll bet you'll get a look that will stop you dead in your tracks. It seems what Mandrake did was let a reduced version go out the door to avoid being destroyed by a deadline that was non-negotiable and inflexible, much the same way you would push your car off a railroad track when a train is coming rather than take a ridiculous position that you really need more time to find out why it won't start. Like it or not, Wal-Mart and Microsoft are the two most successful business in the history of mankind. I, for one, think the 7.2/MacMillian/Wal-Mart flap probably could have been handled better, but you're talking about an extremely small, inexperienced company. Every one of you who hasn't blown it a few times feel free to take your sleeping bag and go join the crusade. Otherwise remember they've got kids to feed and send to college, too. Help a little more; bitch a little less. Michael
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] No, that's totally missing the point. That's what we do with Microsoft and why we chose linux in the first place. I like Mandrake, and I've used about every computer OS and distro ever made and Mandrake 7.2 gives me more of what I ever wanted than anything I have ever used, and consumers trying to voice opinion's to help preserve the goodness that is Mandrake-Linux shouldn't be told Fuck it. If I didn't care what I told you that because I'm very angry that everyone on this list and on the forum keep saying that we lied, that we are selling the rc1 which is WORSE than final which is available for free. Our point is that, OKAY the download edition is overally better than the retail version.. BECAUSE WE HAD TIME TO PUT IN THE 2.0 OF KDE2. Unfortunately we COULD NOT do that for retail version in time. Who do you want to blame? Us? kde2 team?.. Real naming scheme is: retail version is final 7.2 ; download version is final 7.2 with updates such as kde 2.0 final. The retail version, that was once put on the ftp sites for free as rc1, is a GOOD version, and it's 99% close to the one that you find now for free as Download Edition of 7.2. Its name is now final 7.2, because Release Candidates are "candidates to become the official release". Nothing more nothing less!! In the European version, because it's a bit more expensive due to phone support included, we even include a free update for kde2 final, sent on CD's to every customers who will have bought the retail version. In the US unfortunately the product priced $25 is too cheap to permit that, so we have to hope that the free downloads from MandrakeUpdate will please customers. [...] I realize you have deadlines to meet and people to pay - like I said in my other post I used to be a manager of Wal-Mart, so I know when it comes to running a business that in reality the $ does come first. If you have no $'s you have no people, and if you have no people you have no product to get $'s. But not to the point to release a bad product and lie to the customers. But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about A point to clear: not MY nor developpers' decision here. I'm just taking time here to put up some explanations, because I'm feeling really sad that you all guys on this list begin to consider us as lyers and bad customers-related behaviour company.. the fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might I heard that this has been the case for Redhat for long. In real world, the version on the net can be updated in 5 seconds, the one on the shelves in 6 months if you consider WalMart. So how could the retail version be newer/better? That's simply impossible, and our best customer support is to put the final kde2 version on the download edition; think about it: we could have put the kde-1.99 in the download edition to prevent from such comparisons with the retail version. We simply could't provide such a bad service to our users, just because time schedule is missing a couple of weeks! It was possible to put kde-2.0 final in 7.2 on the web so we put the update in the version. Only solution to have boxes in time was to put the 1.99 which IS a good version, and you have the updates.. I can't explain better.. In the future maybe a different versioning system would help alleviate this also. 7.00 might be on the shelf at Wal-Mart while 7.01 on ftp. At least something on the box so no one can claim they were lied to. No because in that case WalMart could not have the 7.01 and customers would ask for it.. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/ i am running a Dell 150M 64 M ram 3G hdd 56k modem. OS = Mandrake Beta 7.2-3 upgraded from Beta 2 hasn't crashed yet. i am 68 yrs old and a disgusted windows user til 1-2000. i've had bugs in KDE : kpackage - replaced with old packge works many button's failed used menu works all else has worked fine great job!! i buy disks from lsl.com as downloading 56k would be dumb. would love to donate to Mandrake. i have tried Caldera and RedHat, with not enough control in Caldera. RedHat doesn't like my modified system. keep up the good work!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] change is inevitable
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I've been following this thread for a little while and find that the true saving grace in the whole thing is MandrakeUpdate. Since all the ISO mirror's are full I was able to use the update program to download all the newer rpm's from the final 7.2 archive and install them. I assume that a person purchasing a boxed version from Walmart will be able to do the same. If anyone has noticed, Redhat 7.0 has had quite a few updates posted around the Linux online community. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge they require money in order to use the Redhat update utility. Mandrake allows all users to use their update utility regardless of the method of getting Linux-Mandrake, be it in a store or off the web. Mandrake is still the distribution that I recommend the most. Scott Chevalley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] No, that's totally missing the point. That's what we do with Microsoft and why we chose linux in the first place. I like Mandrake, and I've used about every computer OS and distro ever made and Mandrake 7.2 gives me more of what I ever wanted than anything I have ever used, and consumers trying to voice opinion's to help preserve the goodness that is Mandrake-Linux shouldn't be told Fuck it. If I didn't care what I told you that because I'm very angry that everyone on this list and on the forum keep saying that we lied, that we are selling the rc1 which is WORSE than final which is available for free. Our point is that, OKAY the download edition is overally better than the retail version.. BECAUSE WE HAD TIME TO PUT IN THE 2.0 OF KDE2. Unfortunately we COULD NOT do that for retail version in time. Who do you want to blame? Us? kde2 team?.. Real naming scheme is: retail version is final 7.2 ; download version is final 7.2 with updates such as kde 2.0 final. The retail version, that was once put on the ftp sites for free as rc1, is a GOOD version, and it's 99% close to the one that you find now for free as Download Edition of 7.2. Its name is now final 7.2, because Release Candidates are "candidates to become the official release". Nothing more nothing less!! In the European version, because it's a bit more expensive due to phone support included, we even include a free update for kde2 final, sent on CD's to every customers who will have bought the retail version. In the US unfortunately the product priced $25 is too cheap to permit that, so we have to hope that the free downloads from MandrakeUpdate will please customers. [...] I realize you have deadlines to meet and people to pay - like I said in my other post I used to be a manager of Wal-Mart, so I know when it comes to running a business that in reality the $ does come first. If you have no $'s you have no people, and if you have no people you have no product to get $'s. But not to the point to release a bad product and lie to the customers. But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about A point to clear: not MY nor developpers' decision here. I'm just taking time here to put up some explanations, because I'm feeling really sad that you all guys on this list begin to consider us as lyers and bad customers-related behaviour company.. the fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might I heard that this has been the case for Redhat for long. In real world, the version on the net can be updated in 5 seconds, the one on the shelves in 6 months if you consider WalMart. So how could the retail version be newer/better? That's simply impossible, and our best customer support is to put the final kde2 version on the download edition; think about it: we could have put the kde-1.99 in the download edition to prevent from such comparisons with the retail version. We simply could't provide such a bad service to our users, just because time schedule is missing a couple of weeks! It was possible to put kde-2.0 final in 7.2 on the web so we put the update in the version. Only solution to have boxes in time was to put the 1.99 which IS a good version, and you have the updates.. I can't explain better.. In the future maybe a different versioning system would help alleviate this also. 7.00 might be on the shelf at Wal-Mart while 7.01 on ftp. At least something on the box so no one can claim they were lied to. No because in that case WalMart could not have the 7.01 and customers would ask for it.. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/ i am running a Dell 150M 64 M ram 3G hdd 56k modem. OS = Mandrake Beta 7.2-3 upgraded from Beta 2 hasn't crashed yet. i am 68 yrs old and a disgusted windows user til 1-2000. i've had bugs in KDE :
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 11:07 PM, Randy Welch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also installed it on my dual at work without no incident. With 7.1: Install made my dual BP6 run extremely slow, and freeze several times. Install with RedHat has no problems at all, and zipped along. Overall, it required far more tweaks out of the box to work properly. I still use Mandrake to play with, but can't rely on it for actual production machines - which run RedHat. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 9:13 PM, Franck Martin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At least this is a real company, with real people, no automatic cleanatised answering machines. I'll give you that. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 9:43 PM, Vincent Danen at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is disgusting. Think about what you're saying here. We're comparing a small company of just over 100 employees to a software monopoly. If anyone can afford to ignore marketing time tables for stable products, it should be Microsoft. Yeah, but the point is that MS bases their shipping dates (read: shipping based on dates, not software completion) on marketing factors, and it appears Mandrake did the same. Yes, granted, they believe that the difference between RC1 and Final is not significant enough, but the fact remains that the box misrepresents this. You know, it's all nice and dandy that people say that MandrakeSoft should not release a product with bugs in it but, realistically, that will never happen. It has nothing to do with buddy product - albeit that's one issues as well - but representing a not-ready product as a final in a retail box that implies this. This could have been avoided by an announcement to the list BEFORE people shopping at WalMart discovered this, as well as an appropriate sticker on the WalMart packaging like "Contains version 7.2rc1. Update your package with a free dwnload from MandrakeSoft." Unfortunately, people don't realize that all 100+ employees of MandrakeSoft need to eat as well and not all of us can work for free to create this quality distribution for you. There is nothing wrong with that, and again, this has nothing to do with the necessity of having to hit a delivery window. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I have to find this funny - if you take all the linux bugs and put them together redhat is more than half of that count. It could be that it was a kernel problem with the patches made to the kernel from Mandrake. I won't touch redhat myself home or work - I took my redhat CD's out and shot them with my .308, along with my microsoft CD's. hehe On Wednesday 01 November 2000 15:45, you wrote: on 10/31/00 11:07 PM, Randy Welch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also installed it on my dual at work without no incident. With 7.1: Install made my dual BP6 run extremely slow, and freeze several times. Install with RedHat has no problems at all, and zipped along. Overall, it required far more tweaks out of the box to work properly. I still use Mandrake to play with, but can't rely on it for actual production machines - which run RedHat. Harry -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.penguinfarm.com/ ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Mandrake Bugs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Make me think of two things - either MandrakeSoft is just a bunch of kids with no idea of real business, or they know fully well what they do, and turn out pre-release software in the name of the mighty cashflow... Neither is a good sign for a company that claims to be professional. I expect this from Microsoft, or maybe LinuxOne, but not from a legitimate company. funny thing, you took us as amatory, and you have no clue of what the words 'operating-system development' mean... -- MandrakeSoft Inc http://www.chmouel.org --Chmouel
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
So sprach Geoffrey Lee am Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 09:26:11PM +0800: It depends. For the United States, AFAIK MacMillian is the sole distributer (CheapBytes, CD-R aside.). For other parts of the world MacMillian may not have a sole official distributer role on the distribution of Linux-Mandrake, still, "official" boxes from Mandrake are not on sale (probably shops are lazy to order?), for example, here in Okay, whatever, but I don't care about the US. How is it in other parts of the world? Is Linux Mandrake not even sold there "officially"? So even if I wanted to BUY Mandrake, it would not be possible? Is that what you are saying? Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.dp.ath.cx Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). As someone who has dealt with Wal-Mart in the past I would be willing to lay a few house payments on the line that: 1) The Wal-Mart Channel *IS* that important to the revenue stream of a small company like Mandrake. 2) You can't lie to Wal-Mart. They've got way more resources than you or Mandrake or the two of you and my small company put together. You can bet you butt that someone inside Wal-Mart knows *EXACTLY* how well Mandrake sells. and 3) When you deal with the largest retailer in the world (Wal-Mart) you deal with them on their terms, not yours. They make or break you, you don't make or break them. So Wal-Mart bullys MacMillian, MacMillian bullys Mandrake, and we suffer because Wal-Mart forces the Mandrake publish date to fall early exactly the same way they were able to push the Play Station 2 release date before the manufacturing failities were ready. (Do you really think anyone wanted the Play Station 2s to be scalped on eBay for the outragous prices we see. Hell no, but they *SURE* didn't want them to be excluded from the Wal-Mart Christmas sales!) Keep in mind that Mandrake is really just a small company with a handful of people trying to break into the big time. They've already landed a few big fish (Macmillan, etc.) and now have to play by the real world market rules. I sure hope they make it, but I'm clearly aware that the highway is littered with bodies of other companies on that same route. The only one who can bully Wal-Mart is the consumer. Michael
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Randy Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] Sorry I just have to ask this question... Is WalMart *that big *of a distribution channel for Linux based software? And if so is it worth putting Mandrakes and Linux's reputation on the line? I don't understand what you ask. We like to put mdk packages in WalMart because it's a big retail channel. [...] So I guess *all* boxed sets are pre final 7.2 then? I had thought about buying a 7.2 deluxe set, but if it's based on the one of the release candidates I might just wait till 7.3 or 8.0. No it's not pre-final 7.2, it's final 7.2. The one for download contains some UPDATES, for example kde-2.0. Please consider that there is only few differences between kde-1.99 and kde-2.0. Also, please consider that "Release Candidate" means that the version is a candidate for official release if it's good enough. It was the case for it went out. There was bugs, yes (there is always bugs anyway) but no important enough bugs, considering the tight time schedule and the overall quality of the product. I run the Release Candidate 1 on my production machine, together with many other mdk employees, and it runs flawlessly. It's a good distro. I am really pleased with the 7.2 final. Ran it all weekend on my laptop with no hangs in KDE whatsoever. Nice! :-) -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Franck Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I bet this year Mandrake won't win any awards due to their poor timing release in the US. When you know that the American press is the one deciding on hot products, I think RedHat will send some flowers to Mandrake. What poor timing release!? We are providing a newest version for christmas with kde2 and hot stuff like that. I don't understand you. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Hi, role on the distribution of Linux-Mandrake, still, "official" boxes from Mandrake are not on sale (probably shops are lazy to order?), for example, here in Okay, whatever, but I don't care about the US. How is it in other parts of the world? Is Linux Mandrake not even sold there "officially"? So even if I Well Linux-Mandrake is sold in a lot of places ..so that would be a very individual question. wanted to BUY Mandrake, it would not be possible? Is that what you are saying? Well I don't know how to answer you here since I'm not even in the marketing department ...sorry. -- Geoffrey Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] §õªø· ~/.signature ¤¤¤åbig5 compliant. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~snailtalk ftp://devel.mandrakesoft.com/pub/people/snailtalk I worry about the freedom of speech and the freedom of expression. I dread the day when, 15 years later, my little daughter ask me, "Where were you when all of this mess started ?"
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Alexander Skwar [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So sprach Geoffrey Lee am Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 09:26:11PM +0800: It depends. For the United States, AFAIK MacMillian is the sole distributer (CheapBytes, CD-R aside.). For other parts of the world MacMillian may not have a sole official distributer role on the distribution of Linux-Mandrake, still, "official" boxes from Mandrake are not on sale (probably shops are lazy to order?), for example, here in Okay, whatever, but I don't care about the US. How is it in other parts of the world? Is Linux Mandrake not even sold there "officially"? So even if I wanted to BUY Mandrake, it would not be possible? Is that what you are saying? In Europe the boxes will be introduced this week AFAIK. France, UK, Germany, Italy. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
"Matthew R. Sprague" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). Lies? Blah. Anyway, both are important, stability and retail channel. You know that we could not live without sell some boxes!! People who download our version for free does not bring me my end-of-the-month salary.. This was a good decision since the walmart/mcmillan version IS stable and IS a good distro. As the end buyer of your product, I don't want to see the crap that is being sold as Mandrake. I have installed Mandrake for 4 friends and would like to have them purchase the boxed set and send some money back to MandrakeSoft. I can not do this in good faith knowing what crap comes in that Macmillian box. That's not true. Have you only performed a FAIR comparison between the Macmillan boxed version and the Download Edition? They are very close distro, basically only kde has changed a little, and as I always say, 1.99 and 2.0 are very close. Also, if this is an important enough reason to not buy our products and support us, that's not really a good solution since we worked (a lot) for both versions including the download edition. Please also consider that we support free software very closely (all GPL development, refusal to include binary drivers in install program, etc) and listen our customers/users desires between each release. [...] 2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? How about another pricing plan here? Direct sale from MandrakeSoft on new versions. I want to start installing Mandrake on computer's for friends and family but I have no need of the limitations of the "beginners" boxed set, nor the price tag of "deluxe". I would rather make my own ISO and work out a direct payment plan to MandrakeSoft. Yes believe it or not, some of us want to send some money your way, but that Macmillian crap doesn't cut it. It's very difficult to make everyone content. We already have designed two lines of products, actually they are a bit different in the USA and in Europe since we can provide phone support in the Europ for the "beginners" version, so the price are overally the same (around 50$). If you want to send a donation, please do ;-)), but anyway we also sell a big box as the Delux version with many comm apps (that cost us money) and documentation (id), so we can not cut the price much lower.. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 05:44, Matthew R. Sprague wrote: | On Monday 30 October 2000 14:14, you wrote: | Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: | WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of | november, until mid january. | | Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in | allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable | release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, Looks like you have never been working with Retail. Retail is _VERY_SPECIFIC_ barnch. Concerning Walmart: I can say that it is probably the most important company in the world. Keeping good relatioinship with them is more important then , IMHO, with IBM, Sun, HP and Compaq together. Do you suggest that talking, for example, to IBM, they will not _dictate_ you their terms? Gosh, I think not. When you tal to retailer they say: we can agree on promo from: (usally 2 months from the date) So, if you deliver product to them after Nov.1, it will be selling only from January. So, you miss Christams season... I was working closely with METRO, biggest European retailer. These guys screw you up, I can tell you. Do you know that sometimes you pay just for shelf space? You pay if product is even not sold. Just becuase it is on the shelf. Not selling? That's yours (vendor's) problem. Not sold in 45 days? We return it to you... | politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes | lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). Yes, it can work. With small or medium-size retalier. Not with WalMart. But,, I believe, long-term strategy for Mandrake should be direct sales from the web site (in US) and cooperation with largest IT distributors (Computer 2000, etc.) and Retails Chains (carrefour, METRO, Office Depot, etc.) in Europe. As for Asia and Japan - I don't situation there, will not comment. | As the end buyer of your product, I don't want to see the crap that is | being sold as Mandrake. I have installed Mandrake for 4 friends and would | like to have them purchase the boxed set and send some money back to | MandrakeSoft. I can not do this in good faith knowing what crap comes in | that Macmillian box. | | Fortunately the download version does not have this limitation and | holds the updates to 2.0, that are also available in download for | retail customers. | | 2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the | "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of | "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. | Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? | Just wondering how much will cost version with Expert install in US? -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html (Russian)
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 06:03, Franck Martin wrote: | I bet this year Mandrake won't win any awards due to their poor timing | release in the US. When you know that the American press is the one | deciding on hot products, I think RedHat will send some flowers to | Mandrake. My opinion: While getting award is important process, and should be going always, it's wrong to put it on top priority. If people judge only by awards, Windows 2000 will be _the only_ choice. Linux still distributed by the word, between people talking to each other. Any kind of award is important, but other people's opinion is much more important here. | | Cheers. | | Franck Martin | Database Development Officer | SOPAC South Pacific Applied Geoscience Commission | -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html (Russian)
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 07:42, you wrote: "Matthew R. Sprague" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). Lies? Blah. Lies? Blah. Like selling mandrake 7.2rc1 as 7.2 final isn't? -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tuesday 31 October 2000 07:42, you wrote: "Matthew R. Sprague" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). Lies? Blah. Lies? Blah. Like selling mandrake 7.2rc1 as 7.2 final isn't? Fuck it, now!!! What do you want me to say!??? Please read my previous explanations. If you think our commercial policy is real bad, please unsubscribe from any of our mailing lists and stop using Mandrake. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Vadim Plessky [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] | 2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the | "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of | "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. | Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? | Just wondering how much will cost version with Expert install in US? I really don't know, but can guess something like $45. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
They sell it in the UK, places like pcworld and tempo sell it, but they havn't figured out how to make a profit of selling it yet because what they have done is buy loads of 7.0 and find that they cant's sell it all by the time the next version comes out. So they don't buy the next version. They are still selling 7.0 here. Mark Hillary So sprach Geoffrey Lee am Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 09:26:11PM +0800: It depends. For the United States, AFAIK MacMillian is the sole distributer (CheapBytes, CD-R aside.). For other parts of the world MacMillian may not have a sole official distributer role on the distribution of Linux-Mandrake, still, "official" boxes from Mandrake are not on sale (probably shops are lazy to order?), for example, here in Okay, whatever, but I don't care about the US. How is it in other parts of the world? Is Linux Mandrake not even sold there "officially"? So even if I wanted to BUY Mandrake, it would not be possible? Is that what you are saying? Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.dp.ath.cx Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ: 7328191
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
How about another pricing plan here? Direct sale from MandrakeSoft on new versions. I want to start installing Mandrake on computer's for friends and family but I have no need of the limitations of the "beginners" boxed set, nor the price tag of "deluxe". I would rather make my own ISO and work out a direct payment plan to MandrakeSoft. Yes believe it or not, some of us want to send some money your way, but that Macmillian crap doesn't cut it. That's what I do. I get the cheap CD's (cheapbytes, lsl, lland, etc.) and send a check to MandrakeSoft. Makes a lot more sense than supporting MacMillan. I've also suggested to Mandrake ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that they should put a 'Donations Glady Accepted' link on their website with the option to charge a credit card. MandrakeSoft, Inc. : 2400 N. Lincoln Ave - Altadena, CA 91001 - USA MandrakeSoft S.A. : 43, rue d'Aboukir - 75002 Paris - France -- Tom Brinkman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I'm for this - put an official address or online secure CC payment form on the mandrake page for donations. Too bad Mandrake doesn't sell stock too ;) I'd be there for ya on that one, I have a lot of faith in the potential of this distro, it's by far the easiest to install and use, and still the most powerful one for running servers, with all the security tools and such. I've got 9 servers at work running Mandrake, one of them is a 200GB ATA100, software raid that was so easy to get going with 7.2. I installed and it worked. Although I put reiser on the 200GB raid and it didn't like that at all, it was down 3 times in 2 days so I switched to ext2 and it's running great now. On Tuesday 31 October 2000 10:17, you wrote: How about another pricing plan here? Direct sale from MandrakeSoft on new versions. I want to start installing Mandrake on computer's for friends and family but I have no need of the limitations of the "beginners" boxed set, nor the price tag of "deluxe". I would rather make my own ISO and work out a direct payment plan to MandrakeSoft. Yes believe it or not, some of us want to send some money your way, but that Macmillian crap doesn't cut it. That's what I do. I get the cheap CD's (cheapbytes, lsl, lland, etc.) and send a check to MandrakeSoft. Makes a lot more sense than supporting MacMillan. I've also suggested to Mandrake ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that they should put a 'Donations Glady Accepted' link on their website with the option to charge a credit card. MandrakeSoft, Inc. : 2400 N. Lincoln Ave - Altadena, CA 91001 - USA MandrakeSoft S.A. : 43, rue d'Aboukir - 75002 Paris - France -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 09:47, you wrote: Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tuesday 31 October 2000 07:42, you wrote: "Matthew R. Sprague" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). Lies? Blah. Lies? Blah. Like selling mandrake 7.2rc1 as 7.2 final isn't? Fuck it, now!!! What do you want me to say!??? Please read my previous explanations. If you think our commercial policy is real bad, please unsub-scribe from any of our mailing lists and stop using Mandrake. No, that's totally missing the point. That's what we do with Microsoft and why we chose linux in the first place. I like Mandrake, and I've used about every computer OS and distro ever made and Mandrake 7.2 gives me more of what I ever wanted than anything I have ever used, and consumers trying to voice opinion's to help preserve the goodness that is Mandrake-Linux shouldn't be told Fuck it. If I didn't care what happened at Mandrake I would be telling you that, and I would have moved on to debian already. I care enough about what happens to the distro and the Image of Mandrake from something like this to take the time to write about it, nothing more. I realize you have deadlines to meet and people to pay - like I said in my other post I used to be a manager of Wal-Mart, so I know when it comes to running a business that in reality the $ does come first. If you have no $'s you have no people, and if you have no people you have no product to get $'s. But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about the fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might release the full code only to find out too many people won't want it because they will think they are getting less for $25 than what they could get for nothing. I've said all I am going to say negatively about this, I am not going to waste more time complaining, I've said my piece about it and it's done, what you guys decide to do from this point on is your choice, I can only offer my opinions and hope that they shed light on some ideas, so you know how your customers feel. Imagine if you never heard from your customers like me, and your sales just started dropping to the floor for no apparent reason you wouldn't what was wrong and what to fix. Anyway - good work on 7.2, the real final version. I love it, as I have all Mandrakes from 6.0. In the future maybe a different versioning system would help alleviate this also. 7.00 might be on the shelf at Wal-Mart while 7.01 on ftp. At least something on the box so no one can claim they were lied to. -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Fuck it, now!!! What do you want me to say!??? Please read my previous explanations. If you think our commercial policy is real bad, please unsub-scribe from any of our mailing lists and stop using Mandrake. I like Mandrake, and I've used about every computer OS and distro ever made and Mandrake 7.2 gives me more of what I ever wanted than anything I have ever used, and consumers trying to voice opinion's to help preserve the goodness that is Mandrake-Linux shouldn't be told Fuck it. If I didn't care what happened at Mandrake I would be telling you that, and I would have moved on to debian already. I care enough about what happens to the distro and the Image of Mandrake from something like this to take the time to write about it, nothing more. I have to agree with Jason on this. Hopefully the majority of Mandrake Soft will understand our concerns and reply in a somewhat more appropriate fashion than the quote above. While not totally happy with the idea of consumers getting the "less than finished" version of 7.2 I can also understand the business side of it. Perhaps in the future the idea of a different version number would help keep something like this from happening again. We all laughed at RH for putting such an unstable 7.0 out because of their rush for a new release... It's easy to point and laugh until a deadline come crashing down on your head and you have to push something out before you'd like to. Over all, I believe Mandrake came out way ahead of Red Hat by waiting as long as they did to put 7.2 on the shelves. The average consumer has no knowledge of the intricate details that concern most of the people on this list. I believe that as long as the KDE and Gnome interfaces work without segfaults, the office software is sound, the majority of sound and video cards are well supported, and printing on 99% of the common printers works, the consumer will be generally pleased even if it happens to contain KDE 1.99 rather than the released 2.0. Don't get me wrong, I don't like to sacrifice any quality, but the boxed versions are already out so all we can do is ask for changes next time or at least a little bit of a heads up from Mandrake Soft. So please, anyone from Mandrake that reads this, consider using a different version numbering system if, god forbid, this ever happens again. Congratulations on the final 7.2 and allowing everyone to work so closely on squashing bug after bug to make Mandrake such a great distribution. Lord knows I take a beating on IRC defending you guys to the likes of Debian and Slack! ;) PS for the guys a Mandrake: Now that 7.2 is really released are the CD's in the boxed sets going to be slowly replaced by the actual release?? for example: when I buy a boxed set say 3 months from now, would it be the RC1 or the one with kde2 we find on the mirrors right now? Note: This is my one and only post on this subject. If anyone would like to say something in reply to me personally, feel free to email me. I would rather not clutter up the mailing list any more than it has been for the past 2-3 days. -- - Tim McKenzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 10:53:46AM -0600, Robert D. Williams wrote: So it looks like US users are stuck with a pre-Mandrake? There are other options, but still... If I bought this version from Macmillian, will I be able to us Mandrake Update to get the latest stuff? Yes. You will be able to download KDE2 and some other packages via MandrakeUpdate very soon. This will put your purchased Mandrake to the same level as the Download Edition. --- so not only does the "Complete" have less than the Deluxe version it has less than the free download Edition?? MICROSOFT DOES NOT PUT KNOWN BETAS ON SALE SO WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING THE FOLKS THAT IN PART PAY YOUR SALERIES FOR WANTING TO DO SO??? Robert L Martin Who thinks Mandrake should burn a special "walmart edition" fix cd and send to registered users of that cd.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Just installed 7.2 Great job !!! Allmost everything stable and running well i think its quite much faster all in all than the rc1 was. But now to the uncomfortable side . I dont know if this has been adressed here befor (probably) well i get a few crashs sometime (not often=)) but its allways the same thing that a prog ie. controlcenter segfaults with this backtrack output : ... (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)... (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)... (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)... (no debugging symbols found)...0x40c2de39 in wait4 () from /lib/libc.so.6 #0 0x40c2de39 in wait4 () from /lib/libc.so.6 #1 0x40c8e8e0 in __check_rhosts_file () from /lib/libc.so.6 #2 0x4049a4d0 in KCrash::defaultCrashHandler () from /usr/lib/libkdecore.so.3 #3 0x40bcb008 in sigaction () from /lib/libc.so.6 #4 0x804a854 in strcpy () #5 0x804b0d8 in strcpy () #6 0x6e6f636b in ?? () and while upgrading bitchx the same : (using midnight comander (GREAT!)) mc [root@desktop files]# /usr/lib/mc/extfs/rpm run /home/kernell32/files/BitchX-75p3-1.i386.rpm UPGRADE Upgrading "/home/kernell32/files/BitchX-75p3-1.i386.rpm" BitchX ## Type install-bitchx to install the configuration files to your home directory. error getting record libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.0) from //var/lib/rpm/requiredby.rpm It probably something very simple i just dont get it =) help needed thx.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] No, that's totally missing the point. That's what we do with Microsoft and why we chose linux in the first place. I like Mandrake, and I've used about every computer OS and distro ever made and Mandrake 7.2 gives me more of what I ever wanted than anything I have ever used, and consumers trying to voice opinion's to help preserve the goodness that is Mandrake-Linux shouldn't be told Fuck it. If I didn't care what I told you that because I'm very angry that everyone on this list and on the forum keep saying that we lied, that we are selling the rc1 which is WORSE than final which is available for free. Our point is that, OKAY the download edition is overally better than the retail version.. BECAUSE WE HAD TIME TO PUT IN THE 2.0 OF KDE2. Unfortunately we COULD NOT do that for retail version in time. Who do you want to blame? Us? kde2 team?.. Real naming scheme is: retail version is final 7.2 ; download version is final 7.2 with updates such as kde 2.0 final. The retail version, that was once put on the ftp sites for free as rc1, is a GOOD version, and it's 99% close to the one that you find now for free as Download Edition of 7.2. Its name is now final 7.2, because Release Candidates are "candidates to become the official release". Nothing more nothing less!! In the European version, because it's a bit more expensive due to phone support included, we even include a free update for kde2 final, sent on CD's to every customers who will have bought the retail version. In the US unfortunately the product priced $25 is too cheap to permit that, so we have to hope that the free downloads from MandrakeUpdate will please customers. [...] I realize you have deadlines to meet and people to pay - like I said in my other post I used to be a manager of Wal-Mart, so I know when it comes to running a business that in reality the $ does come first. If you have no $'s you have no people, and if you have no people you have no product to get $'s. But not to the point to release a bad product and lie to the customers. But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about A point to clear: not MY nor developpers' decision here. I'm just taking time here to put up some explanations, because I'm feeling really sad that you all guys on this list begin to consider us as lyers and bad customers-related behaviour company.. the fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might I heard that this has been the case for Redhat for long. In real world, the version on the net can be updated in 5 seconds, the one on the shelves in 6 months if you consider WalMart. So how could the retail version be newer/better? That's simply impossible, and our best customer support is to put the final kde2 version on the download edition; think about it: we could have put the kde-1.99 in the download edition to prevent from such comparisons with the retail version. We simply could't provide such a bad service to our users, just because time schedule is missing a couple of weeks! It was possible to put kde-2.0 final in 7.2 on the web so we put the update in the version. Only solution to have boxes in time was to put the 1.99 which IS a good version, and you have the updates.. I can't explain better.. In the future maybe a different versioning system would help alleviate this also. 7.00 might be on the shelf at Wal-Mart while 7.01 on ftp. At least something on the box so no one can claim they were lied to. No because in that case WalMart could not have the 7.01 and customers would ask for it.. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Robert L Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] so not only does the "Complete" have less than the Deluxe version it has less than the free download Edition?? Do you know how long it takes to update an on-line product compared to an on-the-shelves product? What can we do? The only reason why this is not happening to our opponents is because they don't provide the updates on their websites so it seems that the download version is same quality than the retail. MICROSOFT DOES NOT PUT KNOWN BETAS ON SALE SO WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING THE FOLKS THAT IN PART PAY YOUR SALERIES FOR WANTING TO DO SO??? Do you know the difference between Release Candidates and Beta?? It seems not. Robert L Martin Who thinks Mandrake should burn a special "walmart edition" fix cd and send to registered users of that cd. We could not do that because $25 is too cheap to handle it. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 19:59, you wrote: Just installed 7.2 Great job !!! Allmost everything stable and running well i think its quite much faster all in all than the rc1 was. But now to the uncomfortable side . I dont know if this has been adressed here befor (probably) well i get a few crashs sometime (not often=)) but its allways the same thing that a prog ie. controlcenter segfaults with this backtrack output : (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)... (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)... (no debugging symbols found)...(no debugging symbols found)... (no debugging symbols found)...0x40c2de39 in wait4 () from /lib/libc.so.6 #0 0x40c2de39 in wait4 () from /lib/libc.so.6 #1 0x40c8e8e0 in __check_rhosts_file () from /lib/libc.so.6 #2 0x4049a4d0 in KCrash::defaultCrashHandler () from /usr/lib/libkdecore.so.3 #3 0x40bcb008 in sigaction () from /lib/libc.so.6 #4 0x804a854 in strcpy () #5 0x804b0d8 in strcpy () #6 0x6e6f636b in ?? () and while upgrading bitchx the same : (using midnight comander (GREAT!)) mc [root@desktop files]# /usr/lib/mc/extfs/rpm run /home/kernell32/files/BitchX-75p3-1.i386.rpm UPGRADE Upgrading "/home/kernell32/files/BitchX-75p3-1.i386.rpm" BitchX ## Type install-bitchx to install the configuration files to your home directory. error getting record libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.0) from //var/lib/rpm/requiredby.rpm It probably something very simple i just dont get it =) help needed thx. sorry that was the wron string i meant to send it as a new message (ough i need more coffe=))
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 05:54:14PM +0100, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: In the future maybe a different versioning system would help alleviate this also. 7.00 might be on the shelf at Wal-Mart while 7.01 on ftp. At least something on the box so no one can claim they were lied to. No because in that case WalMart could not have the 7.01 and customers would ask for it.. I have to agree a different version number would have been appropriate here. Surely you realized KDE2 was going to come out. And I'm sure you also realized that the 7.2 final would be upgradeable via MandrakeUpdate. It would have been easy to put on the box, "Upgradeable to 7.2.1". Then all you would have had to do was put a small card in the box saying that when 7.2.1 was available you would be able to use MandrakeUpdate to get it. Problem solved, everyone happy, less confusion. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org Maslow's Maxim: If the only tool you have is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 6:08 AM, Jason Straight at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lies? Blah. Like selling mandrake 7.2rc1 as 7.2 final isn't? I was about to make that point too. Doesn't matter how much they rationalize it, they are misrepresenting the product, and that WILL hurt them in the end in terms of credibility. Other manufacturers have no trouble selling preview and pre-release versiosn - there would be nothing wrong with properly labeling the package, and informing users they can use the upgdate feature. Yep, just like Microsoft... Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 18:56, Jason Straight wrote: | On Tuesday 31 October 2000 09:47, you wrote: | Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | I realize you have deadlines to meet and people to pay - like I said in my | other post I used to be a manager of Wal-Mart, so I know when it comes to | running a business that in reality the $ does come first. If you have no | $'s you have no people, and if you have no people you have no product to | get $'s. | | But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys | made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about the | fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as | the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might release the | full code only to find out too many people won't want it because they will | think they are getting less for $25 than what they could get for nothing. Just want to comment on this. I am on 56K modem. To download 7.2. ISO (500MB, as far as I remember) I need around 50 hours, taking average download speed of 10MB per hour. One hour of dialup connection here, in Russia, costs $1. Without any warranty of quality. Quality connection - $1.5 per hour. So, downloading over 56K modem will cost me from $50 to $75. I have some friends working for company with xDSL modem. 7Mbit/sec. Yes, we have in Moscow such things as well but pretty expensive. I asked them if it is posible to download LM7.2 for me. Answer: yes. It will cost 10cent per MB - price they pay to provider when over limit (limit is 800MB per month) 10cent per MB - same $50 for 500MB Unfortunately, there is no Walmart in Russia, and I can't buy LM7.2RC just for $25. Anyway, there is no price issue for US. $25 (and $45 for Deluxe with Expert setup) is pretty cheap for US. For Eastern Europe $25 will be pretty expensive. And, it is 50% of RedHat price... | | I've said all I am going to say negatively about this, I am not going to | waste more time complaining, I've said my piece about it and it's done, | what you guys decide to do from this point on is your choice, I can only | offer my opinions and hope that they shed light on some ideas, so you know | how your customers feel. Imagine if you never heard from your customers | like me, and your sales just started dropping to the floor for no apparent | reason you wouldn't what was wrong and what to fix. Completely agree. The first thing in business is listen to your customers. Big companies never listen to their customers, so problems come. Hope Mandrake is small enough and will come out with solution. Just wondering how many people work for Mandrake? (if it is not confidential) -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html (Russian)
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 7:38 AM, Vadim Plessky at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like you have never been working with Retail. Retail is _VERY_SPECIFIC_ barnch. It's a matter of properly labeling the product, then. I don't think anyone objects to the WalMart venue, but rather to the misrepresentation of the box. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 6:47 AM, Guillaume Cottenceau at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fuck it, now!!! What do you want me to say!??? Please read my previous explanations. If you think our commercial policy is real bad, please unsubscribe from any of our mailing lists and stop using Mandrake. Great PR. What you don't seem to understand, Guillaume, is that these people are arguing the way they do BECAUSE they like Mandrake. In case you didn't notice, but that majority of the argument is not consumers being pissed at Mandrake for a shoddy marketing, but Mandrake users who are concerned about the repercussion of this decision to Mandrake and their future credibility. Don't you friggin' get a clue!? Those (former) users who feel as you reccommend have already unsubscribed and moved to another distro, or back to RedHat. Of course, with this kind of understanding, and your rationalisations that the decision was good, I am no longer surprised about the direction Mandrakesoft is taking. As was pointed out, if the box had been properly labeled, there would have been ZERO issues with this - it's the misrepresentation of the product that matters. Apparently, though, you don't seem to be getting it. You should. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/31/00 4:42 AM, Guillaume Cottenceau at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and listen our customers/users desires between each release. Yeah, I notice that during the bitch sessions on the mailing lists after every buggy release :-) Seriously, Mandrake has become less and less stable since 5.3 (while, granted, it has included more cutting edge stuff, but I worry about a distro that actually manages to freeze my system out of the box). If you want to send a donation, please do ;-)), but anyway we also sell a big box as the Delux version with many comm apps (that cost us money) and documentation (id), so we can not cut the price much lower.. Bad decision - you should support the direct consumer market, as you might be surprised how much you are kissing good-bye by turning them away (and essentially telling them to burn their own CDs, and not give you money. As you said, that doesn't contribute to your end-of-the-month paycheck. Harry
RE: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I understand retail is difficult, but beware not to be sued for misleading customers. The USA do not joke about this stuff, and because it is a european product it will be their best bet to get you out of the market by forcing you a total recall. Remember Perrier! Franck Martin Database Development Officer SOPAC South Pacific Applied Geoscience Commission Fiji E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.sopac.org/ http://www.sopac.org/ This e-mail is intended for its recipients only. Do not forward this e-mail without approval. The views expressed in this e-mail may not be neccessarily the views of SOPAC. -Original Message- From: Mandrake Bugs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 9:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vadim Plessky; Matthew R. Sprague Cc: Guillaume Cottenceau Subject: Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers on 10/31/00 7:38 AM, Vadim Plessky at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like you have never been working with Retail. Retail is _VERY_SPECIFIC_ barnch. It's a matter of properly labeling the product, then. I don't think anyone objects to the WalMart venue, but rather to the misrepresentation of the box. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/30/00 6:44 PM, Matthew R. Sprague at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Ah yes, very similar to Microsoft's marketing based on retail figures 'quality control' system. Sad development, but Mandrake is becoming more and more like Microsoft. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Mandrake Bugs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 10/30/00 6:44 PM, Matthew R. Sprague at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Ah yes, very similar to Microsoft's marketing based on retail figures 'quality control' system. Sad development, but Mandrake is becoming more and more like Microsoft. Oh, no, they got us. Now we can't hide anymore, too bad :-(. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
RE: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
May, I suggest that instead of planning your realeases based on the supermarket timing, you base your release on major development of the GNU/Linux platform... So let's say 7.2 is KDE2 Next candidate is Gnome2 (January?) Next candidate is Linux 2.4 (March?) Next candidate is next XFree 4.0 (full support). Next Candidate is Koffice Next Candidate is StarOffice Off course the GNU/Linux world do not care of time schedule, then in this case you can release minor upgrades... I also suggest that you should have an individual release package database, where you will track the latest development number of a program compared to the latest version number in the last release and cooker. You will be able to keep track of what is old and needs work... This database will be all to see and to suggest modifications. It will be also a good search engine of capabilities... This database can include security notices per package... It is not RPM, because it is here to track a distro compared to development. You can also add a bug database to it, where bug would be submitted to the packager or developper for consideration. It will give you then a knowledgebase of Linux for your phone support. And you will be able to sell this knowledge base to everybody... Just a few suggestions to make Mandrake even better. Franck Martin Database Development Officer SOPAC South Pacific Applied Geoscience Commission Fiji E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.sopac.org/ http://www.sopac.org/ This e-mail is intended for its recipients only. Do not forward this e-mail without approval. The views expressed in this e-mail may not be neccessarily the views of SOPAC. -Original Message- From: Guillaume Cottenceau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 11:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Matthew R. Sprague Subject: Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers Mandrake Bugs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 10/30/00 6:44 PM, Matthew R. Sprague at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Ah yes, very similar to Microsoft's marketing based on retail figures 'quality control' system. Sad development, but Mandrake is becoming more and more like Microsoft. Oh, no, they got us. Now we can't hide anymore, too bad :-(. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
just a side note if i buy the deluxe version this time can i be guaranteed the now current version?? will not be buying from walmart.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
MICROSOFT DOES NOT PUT KNOWN BETAS ON SALE SO WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING THE FOLKS THAT IN PART PAY YOUR SALERIES FOR WANTING TO DO SO??? Do you know the difference between Release Candidates and Beta?? It seems not. yes i do a Release candidate is a beta that may be stable (the last RC was not) Robert L Martin Who thinks Mandrake should burn a special "walmart edition" fix cd and send to registered users of that cd. We could not do that because $25 is too cheap to handle it. -- and not getting that $25.00 next time from folks that will now ignore LINUX is?? In RadioShack items up to $50.00 retail are mass scrapped if a serious bug is found and we EAT the repair on greater. Is your rep worth about $2.00 at the most per for folks that bother to register? Robert L Martin (who is thinking of getting the cheap bytes copy since that will be a clean copy)
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Tim McKenzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] Fuck it, now!!! What do you want me to say!??? Please read my previous explanations. If you think our commercial policy is real bad, please unsub-scribe from any of our mailing lists and stop using Mandrake. [...] Hopefully the majority of Mandrake Soft will understand our concerns and reply in a somewhat more appropriate fashion than the quote above. That's for me!? Fine, I give up. Try to find someone else to explain/handle the situation with you. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: If you want to send a donation, please do ;-)), but anyway we also sell a big box as the Delux version with many comm apps (that cost us money) and documentation (id), so we can not cut the price much lower.. Someone mentioned having a way to donate via credit card right on the Mandrake website. Would MandrakeSoft consider doing this? I think it's a great idea. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.com
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tuesday 31 October 2000 11:54, you wrote: Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] No, that's totally missing the point. That's what we do with Microsoft and why we chose linux in the first place. I like Mandrake, and I've used about every computer OS and distro ever made and Mandrake 7.2 gives me more of what I ever wanted than anything I have ever used, and consumers trying to voice opinion's to help preserve the goodness that is Mandrake-Linux shouldn't be told Fuck it. If I didn't care what I told you that because I'm very angry that everyone on this list and on the forum keep saying that we lied, that we are selling the rc1 which is WORSE than final which is available for free. Well, the fact is it's less. KDE is less stable ( just quirqy), and there are a few missing packages from the basic download distro. Our point is that, OKAY the download edition is overally better than the retail version.. BECAUSE WE HAD TIME TO PUT IN THE 2.0 OF KDE2. And that's great, and I applaud you for it. I like KDE2, actually was a windowmaker man till now - but KDE2 is ok. Unfortunately we COULD NOT do that for retail version in time. Who do you want to blame? Us? kde2 team?.. I want to blame whoever is responsible for not making clear the differences between the packages, and as of right now I can't find anywhere on the mandrake webpage that lists any real information on 7.2, not to mention the differences between the different versions of 7.2. How is anyone to know that what they get off the shelf is any different than what they would download? It doesn't say KDE1.99 or gkrellm not included, etc... Real naming scheme is: retail version is final 7.2 ; download version is final 7.2 with updates such as kde 2.0 final. That's all cool, but there should be something that tells the user that other than installing and going, "oh shit, this isn't what I could have downloaded". There's a lack of communication between distributor and customer here that customers won't appreciate at all. Somehow it would be nice to know the shelf version is different than that of the download one. Maybe chaning the release version of 7.2 on the download to 7.2b or something. Anything to note a difference would be nice. It doesn't even give the damn version of KDE on the box so how was I or Greg to know that what we would get from the $25 box would be less than what we get from downloading? I don't care that it is, just that there's no way to know it. Share the info, that's what's important, we have an open operating system here, but don't even have open information between the distributor and the consumer. The retail version, that was once put on the ftp sites for free as rc1, is a GOOD version, and it's 99% close to the one that you find now for free as Download Edition of 7.2. Its name is now final 7.2, because Release Candidates are "candidates to become the official release". Nothing more nothing less!! In the European version, because it's a bit more expensive due to phone support included, we even include a free update for kde2 final, sent on CD's to every customers who will have bought the retail version. In the US unfortunately the product priced $25 is too cheap to permit that, so we have to hope that the free downloads from MandrakeUpdate will please customers. This is kewl, and I have to hand it to you - I am a die hard shell junkie when using rpm and urpmi, but Mandrake update and drakeconf rock. [...] I realize you have deadlines to meet and people to pay - like I said in my other post I used to be a manager of Wal-Mart, so I know when it comes to running a business that in reality the $ does come first. If you have no $'s you have no people, and if you have no people you have no product to get $'s. But not to the point to release a bad product and lie to the customers. To us (the customers) a lie is pretty much anytime the truth isn't 100% clear, like it or not, that's the way it is. But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about A point to clear: not MY nor developpers' decision here. I'm just taking time here to put up some explanations, because I'm feeling really sad that you all guys on this list begin to consider us as lyers and bad customers-related behaviour company.. We are sad too, and that's why we are still here writing, not on a debian or bsd list now. We need you to keep us informed of the versioning differences, a lot of us are your best sales people, I don't only use Mandrake, I preach it. And a lot of people in this area know I know my share about this stuff and take my word for it. the fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might I heard that this has been the case for Redhat for long. In real world, the version
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Mandrake Bugs wrote: Seriously, Mandrake has become less and less stable since 5.3 (while, granted, it has included more cutting edge stuff, but I worry about a distro that actually manages to freeze my system out of the box). Hmm, I won't agree with this. I've found it supporting more of my hardware and have only big problem I've had is with supermount. I'm thinking you have crusty hardware or something. -- Steve Fox http://k-lug.com
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 03:25:22PM -0800, Mandrake Bugs wrote: 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Ah yes, very similar to Microsoft's marketing based on retail figures 'quality control' system. Sad development, but Mandrake is becoming more and more like Microsoft. This is disgusting. Think about what you're saying here. We're comparing a small company of just over 100 employees to a software monopoly. If anyone can afford to ignore marketing time tables for stable products, it should be Microsoft. You know, it's all nice and dandy that people say that MandrakeSoft should not release a product with bugs in it but, realistically, that will never happen. Unless you want us to turn into Debian, but even there they have bugs and they have got to be one of the slowest forward-moving distributions around. If you want a quality release, MandrakeSoft can, will, and *has* provided one. There is no question that Linux Mandrake is a top-quality distribution. Solitary cases aside, I'm sure you will find that most people are satisfied and happy with Mandrake. Unfortunately, people don't realize that all 100+ employees of MandrakeSoft need to eat as well and not all of us can work for free to create this quality distribution for you. In order for us to eat and not find jobs that pay real money, MandrakeSoft needs to sell copies of the distribution. And if this means providing KDE 2.0 RC which works almost identical to 2.0 final (both of which have bugs, BTW, and not caused by us either) because we have a schedule so we can sell our favourite distribution so that people can give it to each other for Christmas, then please understand that we do this for two reasons. The first is because we have an obligation to the people we do business with, and the second is that we need to be able to generate some revenue so that we can continue to work on this. And that has nothing to do with retail figures either. I'm all for free software and top quality no bugs productions, but I also prefer to live in real life and not someone's pipe dream. Instead of spending time criticizing us for what we do and comparing us unfairly to a giant software monopoly, try to understand that we only want to make the best distro for you and ourselves (remember, we use Mandrake too!) but we must have the resources in order to do so. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net 1024D/FE6F2AFD 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD - Danen Consulting Serviceswww.danen.net, www.freezer-burn.org - MandrakeSoft, Inc. www.linux-mandrake.com Current Linux uptime: 7 days 13 hours 8 minutes.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
http://linuxpr.com/releases/2800.html This is the only indication anywhere that I can find that KDE2 on the shelf may not contain the final KDE2.0, it's got an * by it with a footnote attached stating that if your product doesn't contain KDE2.0, it can be obtained by running MandrakeUpdate. Putting any kind of notice on the box like that would have been adequate I would think. -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 11:37:31AM -0500, Robert L Martin wrote: MICROSOFT DOES NOT PUT KNOWN BETAS ON SALE SO WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING THE FOLKS THAT IN PART PAY YOUR SALERIES FOR WANTING TO DO SO??? I didn't know that the 7.2 release as found in Walmart and other retail stores is a beta. How did you know this information and I did not? 7.2 as found in Walmart is *not* a beta version. It was not based on 7.2beta1, beta2, nor beta3. It was based on a *release candidate* 7.which is far different from a *beta*. We are not punishing anyone. How do you see us providing a full final version of 7.2 as punishment? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net 1024D/FE6F2AFD 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD - Danen Consulting Serviceswww.danen.net, www.freezer-burn.org - MandrakeSoft, Inc. www.linux-mandrake.com Current Linux uptime: 7 days 13 hours 19 minutes.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Steve Fox wrote: Mandrake Bugs wrote: Seriously, Mandrake has become less and less stable since 5.3 (while, granted, it has included more cutting edge stuff, but I worry about a distro that actually manages to freeze my system out of the box). Hmm, I won't agree with this. I've found it supporting more of my hardware and have only big problem I've had is with supermount. I'm thinking you have crusty hardware or something. I agree with Steve. I've been real happy with the way Mandrake 7 had performed on all my various systems. I tried RedHat 6.2 on my 'big box' at home once. It hung on the network configuration during install. Never went back. It did a better than expected job on my laptop ( Hmm next go round, think we could have the 1400x1050 resolution automatically configured when selecting the ThinkPad 1400x1050 display? ) which is where I have my home 7.2 installed at the moment. I also installed it on my dual at work without no incident. -randy
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Steve Fox? Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: If you want to send a donation, please do ;-)), but anyway we also sell a big box as the Delux version with many comm apps (that cost us money) and documentation (id), so we can not cut the price much lower.. Someone mentioned having a way to donate via credit card right on the Mandrake website. Would MandrakeSoft consider doing this? I think it's a great idea. I second this. I've had much good use of Mandrake (downloaded isos only) over the past year and would love to give something back. Unfortunately it's been ages since I've programmed, and time is really scarse. But I do have some money. I've considered buying a boxed set, but I won't use any commercial apps and don't need/want printed docs. I'm certain that the margin on a $50 donation is much larger than the margin on a boxed version, anyway. :) -- Graham Percival
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Tue Oct 31, 2000 at 10:56:05AM -0500, Jason Straight wrote: But when it comes to the products image being jeopardized I hope you guys made the right decision. Hopefully there won't be a big stink about the fact that the shelf version that people fork out $25 for isn't as good as the version they can dl for free. Next time around you might release the full code only to find out too many people won't want it because they will think they are getting less for $25 than what they could get for nothing. The Download Edition is basically 7.2 + updates. The updates will be available via MandrakeUpdate. I fail to see the difference? Sure, you can download the 7.2 ISO's, but you can also download a small percentage of the 1.2GB that are the two ISO's by buying 7.2 and using MandrakeUpdate. This is no difference. The only difference is that the download edition includes the updates in the ISO. I (and others, I'm sure) appreciate your common-sense approach to this issue. Thank you for that. It's much nicer to discuss with someone who understands how the real world works. Anyway - good work on 7.2, the real final version. I love it, as I have all Mandrakes from 6.0. This is good to hear! In the future maybe a different versioning system would help alleviate this also. 7.00 might be on the shelf at Wal-Mart while 7.01 on ftp. At least something on the box so no one can claim they were lied to. Consider this then... the retail version is 7.2, no question. The ISO's are the 7.2 Download Edition, or maybe 7.2+updates, but I think an ISO name of mandrake-7.2-download-edition-cd1.iso is a little long... =) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net 1024D/FE6F2AFD 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD - Danen Consulting Serviceswww.danen.net, www.freezer-burn.org - MandrakeSoft, Inc. www.linux-mandrake.com Current Linux uptime: 7 days 13 hours 23 minutes.
RE: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
At least MandrakeSoft is not Microsoft or any American Company... They can swear to their customers! Try people on American Airlines. They are not helpful, not smart, take the shit,... but all that with a smile... At least this is a real company, with real people, no automatic cleanatised answering machines. Cheers. Franck Martin Database Development Officer SOPAC South Pacific Applied Geoscience Commission Fiji E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.sopac.org/ http://www.sopac.org/ This e-mail is intended for its recipients only. Do not forward this e-mail without approval. The views expressed in this e-mail may not be neccessarily the views of SOPAC. -Original Message- From: Guillaume Cottenceau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 6:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers Tim McKenzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] Fuck it, now!!! What do you want me to say!??? Please read my previous explanations. If you think our commercial policy is real bad, please unsub-scribe from any of our mailing lists and stop using Mandrake. [...] Hopefully the majority of Mandrake Soft will understand our concerns and reply in a somewhat more appropriate fashion than the quote above. That's for me!? Fine, I give up. Try to find someone else to explain/handle the situation with you. -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/29/00 4:51 AM, Gary Lawrence Murphy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: keep in mind that the WalMart version is packaged by MacMillan and is not packaged by Mandrakesoft. Anyone is free to download Mandrake from the Cooker and put it on shelves at any time, and if MCP chose to do so before 7.2 was actually released, then it's their mistake not ours. Keep in mind that McMillan and MandrakeSoft have an agreement, thus any pre-release that gets package did so with the full knowledge and support of MandrakeSoft. This is echoed by some of the MandrakeGuys on this list confirmed the tight schedule to ship to WalMart. Essentially, they are doing what MS does ... Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
on 10/29/00 5:16 AM, Jason Straight at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will be deterring people from buying Mandrake from Wal-Mart here and instead will gladly hand out the ISO's I made from the 7.2 tree. And that's not going to help Mandrake pay any paychecks. Same here. It's really rotten. Just plain wreaks of Microsoft tacticts, to release too early knowing the product isn't really ready. Make me think of two things - either MandrakeSoft is just a bunch of kids with no idea of real business, or they know fully well what they do, and turn out pre-release software in the name of the mighty cashflow... Neither is a good sign for a company that claims to be professional. I expect this from Microsoft, or maybe LinuxOne, but not from a legitimate company. Harry
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Hi, Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US market system and legal system go by what is legal, not by what is right. The only thing we can do is to get the word out: the thing called "Mandrake 7.2" that is sold in Wal-Mart is not the real Mandrake 7.2. Does Mandrake publish their own packaging that will be available in the US? Or do they let MacMillian do it? I have never seen an 'official' Mandrake in the stores. I only want to buy the real thing, not a Macmillian product. Unfortunately, MacMillian is the sole distributer in the United States... -- Geoffrey Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] §õªø· ~/.signature ¤¤¤åbig5 compliant. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~snailtalk ftp://devel.mandrakesoft.com/pub/people/snailtalk I worry about the freedom of speech and the freedom of expression. I dread the day when, 15 years later, my little daughter ask me, "Where were you when all of this mess started ?"
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Not only can we warn people, we can let Macmillan know how we feel about it. I personally have sent over 50 people in just the last 6 months (I started keeping records) to buy Mandrake 7.0/7.1 at Staples here in town. I know I could have burned them a copy (for some I did) but for the rest having a manual (as good "cough,cough" as it is) saved some of "my" hair. I know that at least 32 of them did follow my consultations and purchased and installed it. Because of my becoming aware of Macmillan doing this though, I am not only telling everyone from now not to buy Macmillan packaged Mandrake; but I am also emailing everyone on my list and telling them "not" to buy the Macmillan 7.2. I not only don't want them to think that the Macmillan packaged 7.2 is representative of MandrakeSoft's work, but it would reflect bad on me, and as a professional I can not and will not let that happen. So I am CC'ing this to the only email addresses I can find on Macmillan's website that I believe are pertinent, as well as filling a customer service request. If anyone has better email addresses please let me know. Also I would encourage anyone else who finds this disturbing to do the same. You can't always expect a company to act responsibly, ethically, or morally; you can only let them know that you are taking them to task for their actions. I would like to point out that although I find this a grievous error on Macmillan's part, I also recognize that it could have been worse; I just want them to know that they have taken what I regarded as a convenient distribution of excellent software, and rendered it useless to me and others. Also I would like to ask that anyone who does this doesn't do so in a manner as to cause more disdain for us, by doing so in a unprofessional manner; as I believe that even though the linux revolution is progressing at an alarming rate of expansion and acceptance, the number of zealots that are visible to the press, computing community and industry is simply too high. Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? On Sunday 29 October 2000 16:00, you wrote: Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it Yeah, but the difference is Mandrake did that and they didn't call it RedHat anymore! MacMillan is distribuing "Mandrake Linux 7.2" only it isn't! it's 7.2rc1 or thereabout. If they are going to do that they need to change the name to MacMillan linux 1.0 or whatever. They don't *need* to change the name. Unless MandrakeSoft didn't give MacMillian permission to use their trademarked name (mea culpa about the "copyright" screw-up on my part), there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US market system and legal system go by what is legal, not by what is right. The only thing we can do is to get the word out: the thing called "Mandrake 7.2" that is sold in Wal-Mart is not the real Mandrake 7.2. -- Graham Percival -- Thanks, Jim Fritz, President FH SoftHouse, Inc. 603 East 16th StreetHolland, MI 49423 Phone: (616) 395-9556 Fax: (616) 395-9557
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I'm right behind you on this. I feel the same way - I have about 11 servers at work, 7 running 7.1, 2 running 7.2, 1 running NT and another running redhat. We also have 2 workstations running 7.2, and my 2 machines at home running 7.2. After showing everyone what it was like, I raised a lot of interest in people the before 7.2 (KDE2) thought linux was just too much of a change for them. Now they are ready to try it and I just talked 2 of them out of buying 7.2 at wal-mart. I would have been really pissed (as in lawsuit pissed) had I spend time putting what I thought was Mandrake 7.2 final on 9 servers only to find out it's RC1 - which there were still quite a few problems with when I was using it. This certainly already is a step in the direction of hurting sales for the next release from MacMillan even if they straighten their act by then. And they could only get away with this a few times before everyone knows not to buy from them. Surely they must know this? Are thy affilitated with linuxone? Who're the best people at MacMillan to contact on this? On Monday 30 October 2000 07:25, you wrote: Not only can we warn people, we can let Macmillan know how we feel about it. I personally have sent over 50 people in just the last 6 months (I started keeping records) to buy Mandrake 7.0/7.1 at Staples here in town. I know I could have burned them a copy (for some I did) but for the rest having a manual (as good "cough,cough" as it is) saved some of "my" hair. I know that at least 32 of them did follow my consultations and purchased and installed it. Because of my becoming aware of Macmillan doing this though, I am not only telling everyone from now not to buy Macmillan packaged Mandrake; but I am also emailing everyone on my list and telling them "not" to buy the Macmillan 7.2. I not only don't want them to think that the Macmillan packaged 7.2 is representative of MandrakeSoft's work, but it would reflect bad on me, and as a professional I can not and will not let that happen. So I am CC'ing this to the only email addresses I can find on Macmillan's website that I believe are pertinent, as well as filling a customer service request. If anyone has better email addresses please let me know. Also I would encourage anyone else who finds this disturbing to do the same. You can't always expect a company to act responsibly, ethically, or morally; you can only let them know that you are taking them to task for their actions. I would like to point out that although I find this a grievous error on Macmillan's part, I also recognize that it could have been worse; I just want them to know that they have taken what I regarded as a convenient distribution of excellent software, and rendered it useless to me and others. Also I would like to ask that anyone who does this doesn't do so in a manner as to cause more disdain for us, by doing so in a unprofessional manner; as I believe that even though the linux revolution is progressing at an alarming rate of expansion and acceptance, the number of zealots that are visible to the press, computing community and industry is simply too high. Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? On Sunday 29 October 2000 16:00, you wrote: Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it Yeah, but the difference is Mandrake did that and they didn't call it RedHat anymore! MacMillan is distribuing "Mandrake Linux 7.2" only it isn't! it's 7.2rc1 or thereabout. If they are going to do that they need to change the name to MacMillan linux 1.0 or whatever. They don't *need* to change the name. Unless MandrakeSoft didn't give MacMillian permission to use their trademarked name (mea culpa about the "copyright" screw-up on my part), there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US market system and legal system go by what is legal, not by what is right. The only thing we can do is to get the word out: the thing called "Mandrake 7.2" that is sold in Wal-Mart is not the real Mandrake 7.2. -- Graham Percival -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
So sprach Robert D. Williams am Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 08:24:00PM -0600: Does Mandrake publish their own packaging that will be available in the US? While we're at it, what about other parts of the world? To be honest, I haven't seen a Mandrake box here in Germany, but this may be just because I haven't looked :] Who does the packaging for the rest of the world? Alexander Skwar -- Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.dp.ath.cx Sichere Mail? Mail an [EMAIL PROTECTED] fuer GnuPG Keys ICQ:7328191
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Hi, On Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 01:56:55PM +0100, Alexander Skwar wrote: So sprach Robert D. Williams am Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 08:24:00PM -0600: Does Mandrake publish their own packaging that will be available in the US? While we're at it, what about other parts of the world? To be honest, I haven't seen a Mandrake box here in Germany, but this may be just because I haven't looked :] Who does the packaging for the rest of the world? It depends. For the United States, AFAIK MacMillian is the sole distributer (CheapBytes, CD-R aside.). For other parts of the world MacMillian may not have a sole official distributer role on the distribution of Linux-Mandrake, still, "official" boxes from Mandrake are not on sale (probably shops are lazy to order?), for example, here in Hong Kong I have seen CheapBytes CD for sale, I have seen MacMillian boxed sets for sale, but no "Essential pack" or "PowerPack". -- Geoffrey Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] §õªø· ~/.signature ¤¤¤åbig5 compliant. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/~snailtalk ftp://devel.mandrakesoft.com/pub/people/snailtalk I worry about the freedom of speech and the freedom of expression. I dread the day when, 15 years later, my little daughter ask me, "Where were you when all of this mess started ?"
RE: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Do the folks at Linux-Mandrake have any official statement regarding Macmillan's release of effectively Beta software under the guise of being the full release version? Just asking :-) Cheers: Michael Perry. RD. Dep. Netafim Magal. Linux -- the Ultimate Windows Service Pack The three most dangerous things are a programmer with a soldering iron, a manager who codes, and a user who gets ideas.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Kinda - as greg said in his post about his problems that some packages are missing altogether, like gentoo, and gkrellm - who know's what else. On Monday 30 October 2000 11:53, you wrote: On Monday 30 October 2000 06:26 am, you wrote: Hi, On Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 01:56:55PM +0100, Alexander Skwar wrote: So sprach Robert D. Williams am Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 08:24:00PM -0600: Does Mandrake publish their own packaging that will be available in the US? While we're at it, what about other parts of the world? To be honest, I haven't seen a Mandrake box here in Germany, but this may be just because I haven't looked :] Who does the packaging for the rest of the world? It depends. For the United States, AFAIK MacMillian is the sole distributer (CheapBytes, CD-R aside.). For other parts of the world MacMillian may not have a sole official distributer role on the distribution of Linux-Mandrake, still, "official" boxes from Mandrake are not on sale (probably shops are lazy to order?), for example, here in Hong Kong I have seen CheapBytes CD for sale, I have seen MacMillian boxed sets for sale, but no "Essential pack" or "PowerPack". So it looks like US users are stuck with a pre-Mandrake? There are other options, but still... If I bought this version from Macmillian, will I be able to us Mandrake Update to get the latest stuff? -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
"Robert D. Williams" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I bought this version from Macmillian, will I be able to us Mandrake Update to get the latest stuff? should be that way
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Monday 30 October 2000 11:53, Robert D. Williams wrote: So it looks like US users are stuck with a pre-Mandrake? There are other options, but still... If I bought this version from Macmillian, will I be able to us Mandrake Update to get the latest stuff? YES -Chris
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know it's long, but well worth a read if you are considering buying it rather than downloading. And of course the moral's behind putting non stable on shelves at wal-mart, I mean even MS doesn't blatenly put RC product on shelves, they at least claim it's finished. Pay extra attention to the VERSION differences and packages such as KDE2 or should I say 1.99. There were ton's of bugs in the 1.99 code, stupid stuff with desktop icons and such, that will confuse the hell out of average windows users, and now you just put it in 2500+ stores. So everyone all over America thinks Mandrake puts out unfinished wares. 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Fortunately the download version does not have this limitation and holds the updates to 2.0, that are also available in download for retail customers. 2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? -- Guillaume Cottenceau -- Distribution Developer for MandrakeSoft http://us.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 10:53:46AM -0600, Robert D. Williams wrote: So it looks like US users are stuck with a pre-Mandrake? There are other options, but still... If I bought this version from Macmillian, will I be able to us Mandrake Update to get the latest stuff? Yes. You will be able to download KDE2 and some other packages via MandrakeUpdate very soon. This will put your purchased Mandrake to the same level as the Download Edition. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net 1024D/FE6F2AFD 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD - Danen Consulting Serviceswww.danen.net, www.freezer-burn.org - MandrakeSoft, Inc. www.linux-mandrake.com Current Linux uptime: 6 days 10 hours 8 minutes.
RE: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
I bet this year Mandrake won't win any awards due to their poor timing release in the US. When you know that the American press is the one deciding on hot products, I think RedHat will send some flowers to Mandrake. Cheers. Franck Martin Database Development Officer SOPAC South Pacific Applied Geoscience Commission Fiji E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: http://www.sopac.org/ http://www.sopac.org/ This e-mail is intended for its recipients only. Do not forward this e-mail without approval. The views expressed in this e-mail may not be neccessarily the views of SOPAC. -Original Message- From: Vincent Danen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 2:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers On Mon Oct 30, 2000 at 10:53:46AM -0600, Robert D. Williams wrote: So it looks like US users are stuck with a pre-Mandrake? There are other options, but still... If I bought this version from Macmillian, will I be able to us Mandrake Update to get the latest stuff? Yes. You will be able to download KDE2 and some other packages via MandrakeUpdate very soon. This will put your purchased Mandrake to the same level as the Download Edition. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenPGP key available on www.keyserver.net 1024D/FE6F2AFD 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD - Danen Consulting Serviceswww.danen.net, www.freezer-burn.org - MandrakeSoft, Inc. www.linux-mandrake.com Current Linux uptime: 6 days 10 hours 8 minutes.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? Just for info purposes, the "PowerPack Deluxe" version was NOT available in the Walmart store where I purchased "7.2 Complete". -- Danny Cook http://dockside.dhs.org
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
You can buy the Mandrake CDs from Linux Mall, but it is still not the official Mandrake, only a snapshot of a few (2?) of the CDs -- Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: office voice/fax: 01 519 4222723 T(C)Inc Business Innovations through Open Source http://www.teledyn.com M:I-3 - Documenting the Linux kernel: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
"J" == Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: J Who're the best people at MacMillan to contact on this? Certainly Mandrakesoft will know the answer to this. I'd recommend approaching Macmillan through the InformIT website as that dept is closest to their software people. I would also like to give a feeble defense on their behalf: What happens inside the software group has nothing whatsoever to do with what happens in their book publishing group; these two camps often disagree and sometimes disagree greatly on the other's policies. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: office voice/fax: 01 519 4222723 T(C)Inc Business Innovations through Open Source http://www.teledyn.com M:I-3 - Documenting the Linux kernel: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Sorry I just have to ask this question... Is WalMart *that big *of a distribution channel for Linux based software? And if so is it worth putting Mandrakes and Linux's reputation on the line? 2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? So I guess *all* boxed sets are pre final 7.2 then? I had thought about buying a 7.2 deluxe set, but if it's based on the one of the release candidates I might just wait till 7.3 or 8.0. I am really pleased with the 7.2 final. Ran it all weekend on my laptop with no hangs in KDE whatsoever. -randy
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Monday 30 October 2000 14:14, you wrote: Jason Straight [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. We has to put out this version due to very tight time schedule: WalMart doesn't want any new products on the shelves from 1st of november, until mid january. Is this really that important to MandrakeSoft? Don't get caught up in allowing Walmart to dictate the terms. What is more important stable release or Nov 1st target. If Walmart won't take it past a given date, politely remind them about how well the product is selling at Staples. (Yes lie, make up imaginary sales figures, whatever). As the end buyer of your product, I don't want to see the crap that is being sold as Mandrake. I have installed Mandrake for 4 friends and would like to have them purchase the boxed set and send some money back to MandrakeSoft. I can not do this in good faith knowing what crap comes in that Macmillian box. Fortunately the download version does not have this limitation and holds the updates to 2.0, that are also available in download for retail customers. 2. You had bad experience with it because you apparently purchased the "beginner" version that prices $25. We have removed plenty of "expert" things in it and that's what pissed you off, that's normal. Wasn't there the "PowerPack Deluxe" also available on sales? How about another pricing plan here? Direct sale from MandrakeSoft on new versions. I want to start installing Mandrake on computer's for friends and family but I have no need of the limitations of the "beginners" boxed set, nor the price tag of "deluxe". I would rather make my own ISO and work out a direct payment plan to MandrakeSoft. Yes believe it or not, some of us want to send some money your way, but that Macmillian crap doesn't cut it.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
keep in mind that the WalMart version is packaged by MacMillan and is not packaged by Mandrakesoft. Anyone is free to download Mandrake from the Cooker and put it on shelves at any time, and if MCP chose to do so before 7.2 was actually released, then it's their mistake not ours. I've had a problem with most of the Walmart/Staples distros for the past two years --- while they get us out into the mainstream channels, they do so with the message that Linux is broken. MCP is not the only guilty party here. I fully support what they are doing in principle, but I just wish there was more sensitivity to the technical expertise typical of someone who would buy software in such a way. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: office voice/fax: 01 519 4222723 T(C)Inc Business Innovations through Open Source http://www.teledyn.com M:I-3 - Documenting the Linux kernel: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Sunday 29 October 2000 07:51, you wrote: keep in mind that the WalMart version is packaged by MacMillan and is not packaged by Mandrakesoft. Anyone is free to download Mandrake from the Cooker and put it on shelves at any time, and if MCP chose to do so before 7.2 was actually released, then it's their mistake not ours. You officially speak for Mandrake software on this issue then? If so I'm glad to hear you say this. But on the other hand isn't mandrake involved with MCP? Shouldn't Mandrake be able to say, "Hey that's not really 7.2 - it's a friggin beta! So don't put 7.2 on the package." I think Mandrake should insist that MCP sends out big red stickers to put on the front of the boxes stating that this is not 7.2 final but a release candidate. MCP is misrepresenting Mandrake on this and makes Mandrake look bad, I will be deterring people from buying Mandrake from Wal-Mart here and instead will gladly hand out the ISO's I made from the 7.2 tree. And that's not going to help Mandrake pay any paychecks. This doesn't explain the changed installation procedure though either, I realized it's aimed at newbies but surely Mandrake made this install not MCP?!?! I've had a problem with most of the Walmart/Staples distros for the past two years --- while they get us out into the mainstream channels, they do so with the message that Linux is broken. MCP is not the only guilty party here. I fully support what they are doing in principle, but I just wish there was more sensitivity to the technical expertise typical of someone who would buy software in such a way. I really hope Mandrake does something to protect their interest here, they need to protect their image and at least let everyone know this isn't final product. And if they do do you think any will sell? No way. And MCP won't do this again hopefully. It's really rotten. Just plain wreaks of Microsoft tacticts, to release too early knowing the product isn't really ready. -- Movie: The Sixth Sense "I see dumb people... they're everywhere. They walk around like everyone else. They don't even know that they're dumb." [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 1796276
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Jason Straight wrote: Shouldn't Mandrake be able to say, "Hey that's not really 7.2 - it's a friggin beta! So don't put 7.2 on the package." IMHO this has been an issue since Macmillan put out Mandrake 6.1 as 'Complete Linux 6.5' (or whatever they called it). A lot of people seemed to have problems with installing/maintaining this release, and thought it was Mandrakes fault even though a lot of the broken stuff seemed to have been introduced by Macmillan. I think there may be a problem here if Mandrake loses control over the distros published by Macmillan with Mandrake written on the box. It sounds like Macmillan may have published a pre-release version of Mandrake 7.2. I think Mandrake should insist that MCP sends out big red stickers to put on the front of the boxes stating that this is not 7.2 final but a release candidate. MCP is misrepresenting Mandrake on this and makes Mandrake look bad, I will be deterring people from buying Mandrake from Wal-Mart here and instead will gladly hand out the ISO's I made from the 7.2 tree. And that's not going to help Mandrake pay any paychecks. I agree with you entirely, but I have no idea of the details of the contract between Macmillan and Mandrake. What sort of power does Mandrake have over Macmillan for this? This doesn't explain the changed installation procedure though either, I realized it's aimed at newbies but surely Mandrake made this install not MCP?!?! Yeah, the posts I've read about this made it seem this way. Hope that Mandrake (IMHO the best Linux distro available at the moment) doesn't get drawn into some evil licensing deal with Macmillan that makes it impossible to put out a good distro
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 10:44:01AM -0800, Graham Percival wrote: If MandrakeSoft owns a copyright on "Mandrake" (as I would expect them to), they could sue for copyright infringement. Unless they have some agreement with MacMillian which allows them to use the name. Which I think is the case. :( Trademark, copyright is a totally different thing. I don't understand why everyone confuses these. -- Ben Reser [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://ben.reser.org Maslow's Maxim: If the only tool you have is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail.
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Graham Percival wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? I know, I understand the GPL but the GPL doesn't give someone else the right to take a product and claim it's a different version and sell it. Actually, it does. As long as they make the source code available to whoever they sold it to, you can do that. On a similar note, remember that really bad "linux dot com" company (I think it was called LinuxOne)? They took Mandrake 6.1, changed a few names, and tried to sell it. If MandrakeSoft owns a copyright on "Mandrake" (as I would expect them to), they could sue for copyright infringement. Unless they have some agreement with MacMillian which allows them to use the name. Which I think is the case. :( One of the problems with a GPLed world is getting information to people. Anybody can make a new linux distro. Call it "Red Mat". Sell it to newbies. Distro really sucks, because the maker is just out for a scam. Newbies think that all linux sucks. Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it It seems that it is similar to Apple suing M$ for the GUI interface while it is Xerox which created it So bee cool... MS keep MacMillian informed of the state of 7.2 ! Cheers...
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? On Sunday 29 October 2000 16:00, you wrote: Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it Yeah, but the difference is Mandrake did that and they didn't call it RedHat anymore! MacMillan is distribuing "Mandrake Linux 7.2" only it isn't! it's 7.2rc1 or thereabout. If they are going to do that they need to change the name to MacMillan linux 1.0 or whatever. They don't *need* to change the name. Unless MandrakeSoft didn't give MacMillian permission to use their trademarked name (mea culpa about the "copyright" screw-up on my part), there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US market system and legal system go by what is legal, not by what is right. The only thing we can do is to get the word out: the thing called "Mandrake 7.2" that is sold in Wal-Mart is not the real Mandrake 7.2. -- Graham Percival
Re: [Cooker] Sad state of pre-releasing to consumers
On Sunday 29 October 2000 06:11 pm, you wrote: Millions of electrons died to bring me this message. Was it worth it, Jason Straight? On Sunday 29 October 2000 16:00, you wrote: Well take the Red Hat linux distro and call it Mandrake and redistribute it Yeah, but the difference is Mandrake did that and they didn't call it RedHat anymore! MacMillan is distribuing "Mandrake Linux 7.2" only it isn't! it's 7.2rc1 or thereabout. If they are going to do that they need to change the name to MacMillan linux 1.0 or whatever. They don't *need* to change the name. Unless MandrakeSoft didn't give MacMillian permission to use their trademarked name (mea culpa about the "copyright" screw-up on my part), there's nothing that can be done to stop them. Of course, they *should* change the name, or otherwise make it clear that it is a beta version. But the US market system and legal system go by what is legal, not by what is right. The only thing we can do is to get the word out: the thing called "Mandrake 7.2" that is sold in Wal-Mart is not the real Mandrake 7.2. Does Mandrake publish their own packaging that will be available in the US? Or do they let MacMillian do it? I have never seen an 'official' Mandrake in the stores. I only want to buy the real thing, not a Macmillian product. Thank you. -- Robert Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jarob Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] Provo, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED]
