Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi Charles, On 2/22/06, Charles-H.Schulz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My memory must have shortcomings then. :-) What were your contributions? Daniel has done a good many things for OpenOffice.org, as have been listed. Documentation, testing, QA, he created an installer for an OS he doesn't even use, OOoAuthors, and so on. I think the problem lies in the fact that most of Daniel's efforts of late have been focused elsewhere, outside the bounds of the OpenOffice.orgproject. Not that they are in conflict with OOo, they, in fact, are related to and often directly support OOo - they just take place outside of OOo proper. I speak of he work with the OpenDocument Fellowship, OOoAuthors, Open Clip Art Library, and other projects. I agree that recently Daniel's comments have seemed more negative than positive, but based on past performance, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt in Daniel's desire to see open source, open formats, and Open Office (.org) succeed in the best way possible. -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ http://www.whatisopenoffice.org/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 15:04 +0200, Cristian Driga wrote: > Also, from what I know we can have an edit of the description of the > mailing list and we can include there a link to such a page near each > mailing list. > > Alex, many thanks. > > > Yes, thank you Alex. +1 -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi John, Alex, John McCreesh wrote: Can I please ask everyone subscribed to this list to print off Alex's email, blu-tack it to their monitor, and read it slowly before they read any postings on the list. John, can we go further with this and put a text derrived from Alex's excellent recommendations somewhere proeminent on the MP website ? Say for example in the page talking about the mailing lists or where there are already some basic mailing list participation rules ? Also, from what I know we can have an edit of the description of the mailing list and we can include there a link to such a page near each mailing list. Alex, many thanks. Yes, thank you Alex. Best, Cristian John -- Cristian DRIGA - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Wed, February 22, 2006 12:35, Alex Fisher wrote: [snip] > May I suggest that in the future, when anyone makes any suggestion in what > may > seem to be an "aggressive" (for lack of a better term) tone, that everyone > take a deep breath, consider whether the poster is a native English > speaker, > if not then make allowances for that, and then wait until the next day > before > responding. During that day, consider carefully whether or not their > suggestion might perhaps have some merit. Usually you'll find that it > does. > > Then, if you don't like the way things are phrased, ASK for clarification > before you fire of a hasty reply. > > In my 5 years, virtually every "flame war" has started because one or more > others have not paused in the way I suggest above. > > Think about it, folks. Can I please ask everyone subscribed to this list to print off Alex's email, blu-tack it to their monitor, and read it slowly before they read any postings on the list. Alex, many thanks. John - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:59, Daniel Carrera wrote: > Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > > My memory must have shortcomings then. :-) What were your contributions? > > Well, you should remember the codenames because we talked about those > recently. There's also QA, tech support (users list), IRC talks, website > and documentation. ... and Distribution > > Daniel. -- Alex Fisher Co-Lead, CD-ROM Project OpenOffice.org Marketing Community Contact Australia/New Zealand http://distribution.openoffice.org/cdrom/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:22, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > Hi, > > Ian Lynch wrote: > >On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 00:56 +0200, Cristian Driga wrote: > >>I would've loved if you had looked in the existing to-dos, if you had > >>checked what others tried to bring new using the wiki lately and helped > >>them where you could. But no, seems that moving a site around is more > >>important to you. > > > >I think that is a bit unfair given how much work Daniel has done on > >supporting OOo overall. > > What? This is a joke right? What did he do, seriously? I mean, what did > he do on OpenOffice.org that didn't disrupt, flame or do anything else > than that here? I'm trying to recall myself what he did but I really can't. ...wrote the Javascript and stuff to make the Distributor's page work better. There are others, scattered around in different projects. That is one that I personally am intimately familiar with. He actually suggested the concept (on the Website list IIRC) of using JS and tags on the main download page, to make it easier to find a mirror. He was shouted down, told that it wouldn't work, and generally poo-pooed. I contacted him off list, and used his idea. Guess what? It works, and works well. Finding a CD distributor near you is now considerable easier, thanks to Daniel's efforts. Yes, I know his suggestions often seem to set of a flame war, but in many cases that is actually due to one or more of the responses to his suggestions. Kindly remember that English is not Daniel's mother tongue, which leads to a series of mis-interpretations, which in turn leads to people responding in a seemingly over vehement tone, which triggers the flames. I've now been involved with OO.o for abut 5 years so far, and I've seen everything that Daniel and others have put forward on this and several other lists. Daniel frequently has very good ideas. Problem is, he has problems explaining to others precisely what he envisages, and instead of quietly asking for more clarification, many folk simply jump on him. Of course, he then snaps back. May I suggest that in the future, when anyone makes any suggestion in what may seem to be an "aggressive" (for lack of a better term) tone, that everyone take a deep breath, consider whether the poster is a native English speaker, if not then make allowances for that, and then wait until the next day before responding. During that day, consider carefully whether or not their suggestion might perhaps have some merit. Usually you'll find that it does. Then, if you don't like the way things are phrased, ASK for clarification before you fire of a hasty reply. In my 5 years, virtually every "flame war" has started because one or more others have not paused in the way I suggest above. Think about it, folks. > > > Like me he is pretty busy at the moment with > >work so not much time for more than monitoring and seeing what is going > >on. In the context of the current debate his suggestions are not > >particularly outrageous but are not likely to be realised for all the > >same historical reasons. So on that I agree with you Cristian, best to > >drop it. > > > >I personally think that the best solution is to carry on developing the > >Wiki and let Steven develop his site with the help of anyone that wants > >to help. See what happens. In the end quality should prevail. > > Charles. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Alex Fisher Co-Lead, CD-ROM Project OpenOffice.org Marketing Community Contact Australia/New Zealand http://distribution.openoffice.org/cdrom/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 12:01 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > Daniel, you made my day look better. Every week or so I wonder what I > did useful for OOo ; now I'll be more tolerant to myself (and others). Ok Charles so you personally hate Daniel. We all know this now and probably many of us well before. Why do you carry on cluttering up the list with this personal invective? I guess if Steven sets up his marketing site and its successful you will end up hating him too - if you don't already. What matters is whether whatever anyone does, be it development, promotion, advocacy or documentation helps improve the code and gets more people using it. The rest is petty politics. -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Charles-H.Schulz wrote: If you call the fact of being supportive of the idea a contribution yes, you are a contributor. We've been through this. I originated the idea and did most of the work and I held the vote on my website. Daniel, you made my day look better. Always happy to bring sunshine to someone's day :) now I'll be more tolerant to myself (and others). That's wondeful Charles. Best, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Daniel Carrera wrote: > Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > >> My memory must have shortcomings then. :-) What were your >> contributions? > > > Well, you should remember the codenames because we talked about those > recently. If you call the fact of being supportive of the idea a contribution yes, you are a contributor. > There's also QA, Ach so QA? > tech support (users list), Right. > IRC talks, website and documentation. And mixing everything with OOoAuthors. But let's not get into this. Daniel, you made my day look better. Every week or so I wonder what I did useful for OOo ; now I'll be more tolerant to myself (and others). Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Daniel Carrera wrote: Well, you should remember the codenames because we talked about those recently. There's also QA, tech support (users list), IRC talks, website and documentation. Oh, did I mention that I was elected for the community council? At least a few people thought I did something useful. Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Charles-H.Schulz wrote: My memory must have shortcomings then. :-) What were your contributions? Well, you should remember the codenames because we talked about those recently. There's also QA, tech support (users list), IRC talks, website and documentation. Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi, Daniel Carrera wrote: > Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > >> What? This is a joke right? What did he do, seriously? > > > Well, someone things I did something useful because my name is in the > OOo credits :) That's alright. This isn't the first time this month > that you forget my contributions. My memory must have shortcomings then. :-) What were your contributions? Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Charles-H.Schulz wrote: What? This is a joke right? What did he do, seriously? Well, someone things I did something useful because my name is in the OOo credits :) That's alright. This isn't the first time this month that you forget my contributions. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi, Ian Lynch wrote: >On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 00:56 +0200, Cristian Driga wrote: > > > >>I would've loved if you had looked in the existing to-dos, if you had >>checked what others tried to bring new using the wiki lately and helped >>them where you could. But no, seems that moving a site around is more >>important to you. >> >> > >I think that is a bit unfair given how much work Daniel has done on >supporting OOo overall. > What? This is a joke right? What did he do, seriously? I mean, what did he do on OpenOffice.org that didn't disrupt, flame or do anything else than that here? I'm trying to recall myself what he did but I really can't. > Like me he is pretty busy at the moment with >work so not much time for more than monitoring and seeing what is going >on. In the context of the current debate his suggestions are not >particularly outrageous but are not likely to be realised for all the >same historical reasons. So on that I agree with you Cristian, best to >drop it. > >I personally think that the best solution is to carry on developing the >Wiki and let Steven develop his site with the help of anyone that wants >to help. See what happens. In the end quality should prevail. > > Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Ian Lynch wrote: On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 00:56 +0200, Cristian Driga wrote: I would've loved if you had looked in the existing to-dos, if you had checked what others tried to bring new using the wiki lately and helped them where you could. But no, seems that moving a site around is more important to you. I think that is a bit unfair given how much work Daniel has done on supporting OOo overall. Apologies to Daniel. No harm intended. I was generally sad that almost all we do is only debate or fight, ask for more and too litle inside the project to market OOo. But perhaps I am the one who asks too much in such a short time. :) So on that I agree with you Cristian, best to drop it. +1 I personally think that the best solution is to carry on developing the Wiki and let Steven develop his site with the help of anyone that wants to help. See what happens. In the end quality should prevail. +1 Thanks Ian! ~cristian -- Cristian DRIGA - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 00:56 +0200, Cristian Driga wrote: > I would've loved if you had looked in the existing to-dos, if you had > checked what others tried to bring new using the wiki lately and helped > them where you could. But no, seems that moving a site around is more > important to you. I think that is a bit unfair given how much work Daniel has done on supporting OOo overall. Like me he is pretty busy at the moment with work so not much time for more than monitoring and seeing what is going on. In the context of the current debate his suggestions are not particularly outrageous but are not likely to be realised for all the same historical reasons. So on that I agree with you Cristian, best to drop it. I personally think that the best solution is to carry on developing the Wiki and let Steven develop his site with the help of anyone that wants to help. See what happens. In the end quality should prevail. -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Cristian Driga wrote: Please do not start this again. You know the answers on this re the server power and having this resource for all the OOo project. As I said before, if you can find out what exactly the server has I will find out what workload it can handle. We *don't know* if power is a problem. I'll volunteer to find out. I just need the machine spec and I'll talk to the MediaWiki guys. Best, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi Daniel, Daniel Carrera wrote: Cristian Driga wrote: Some argue that access to uploading things on the OOo website is hard. Indeed at some point it may be difficult. This is because of the security measures as the site is held on the same server as the source code. Correct. Having the source code and the marketing website (or any of the website) on the same system is a very bad setup. If it was my choice, I'd reduce the marketing site to one page with an HTML redirect to the wiki. Please do not start this again. You know the answers on this re the server power and having this resource for all the OOo project. I have previously responded to this suggestion to you at least two times: Wiki server has not the same serving power as the OOo site. Also, see Steven's argument: he saw the wiki as becoming a copy of the main website...and not a place for building things up by marketing people. Thanks for understanding. Cristian Cheers, Daniel. -- Cristian DRIGA == OpenOffice.org Romanian Native Language Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] ro.openoffice.org www.openoffice.org --- Attorney at Law - Iasi, Romania Phone: +40.78.87.000.60; +40.747.49.88.94 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.kfacts.com/driga/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi RG, RealGrouchy (CAM) wrote: As a new Marketing volunteer, I have had to fight through a lot of technical jungles and read a lot of lists of procedure just to get involved. We should simplify and clarify the instructions for getting involved so that a person doesn't have to be as hardcore as I am to not get turned off by these obstacles! Hopefully we can improve all these. If we want to ;-) As I suggested before: - Wiki should be for idea development - Mailing list should be fore discussion and decision making* - Website should be for finished product. +3 for all these points above :) Just like I suggested three weeks ago when started the wiki thing. Some argue that access to uploading things on the OOo website is hard. Indeed at some point it may be difficult. This is because of the security measures as the site is held on the same server as the source code. But there are more than a few contributors able to put up finished things on the site and help out. And we can solve this part out. I see no reason that this one last technical difficulty prevent us from starting with what we have and especially the wiki. So, as I advised before, taking it step by step and for now starting doing marketing using the wiki and cease fire and fights would prove the good intentions of everybody involved. Things will change more in time. I am sure of it. Important is that if we start fresh with some things, we keep what is good from what we have. If you're communicating online, if someone offends you, suck it down and be polite. As Mark Twain said, "Don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself." *Lastly, this whole process confuses me. Obviously, I have shown that I am a fan of Wikis. However, this group has historically done most of its work on this list. I think it would be easier to keep track of "vote tallies" and people's opinions if they were taken on the wiki. But that's just me. And I for one am willing to learn from you as you seem a power user of wikis. Let's put it to work more. ;-) Thanks for all the good stuff you are bringing in. Best, Cristian - RG> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Cristian DRIGA == OpenOffice.org Romanian Native Language Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] ro.openoffice.org www.openoffice.org --- Attorney at Law - Iasi, Romania Phone: +40.78.87.000.60; +40.747.49.88.94 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.kfacts.com/driga/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Cristian Driga wrote: Some argue that access to uploading things on the OOo website is hard. Indeed at some point it may be difficult. This is because of the security measures as the site is held on the same server as the source code. Correct. Having the source code and the marketing website (or any of the website) on the same system is a very bad setup. If it was my choice, I'd reduce the marketing site to one page with an HTML redirect to the wiki. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 12:45 -0500, RealGrouchy (CAM) wrote: > I've been on here for two days, And summed up pretty well most of the issues that have been getting kicked around for the last few years :-) > As a new Marketing volunteer, I have had to fight through a lot of > technical jungles and read a lot of lists of procedure just to get > involved. We should simplify and clarify the instructions for getting > involved so that a person doesn't have to be as hardcore as I am to > not get turned off by these obstacles! This has in fact been a cause of a lot of the debate over the last year or two. You are just seeing some of the after-shocks :-) > Use of technology is important to this. > (on a wiki, presumably the important information is the > stuff that stays up). Yes, the Wiki should - and I think is and will - make a big difference. > As for the project leaders (the initial reason for this debate)... If > you're presenting a case, support it. The onus is on you to present > support for your argument, not on others to "read back". I for one, am > not able to "read back", and even if I could, would not waste my time > in doing to. In my view, the most significant single act of leadership we have seen this year is the establishment of the Wiki. I just did a quick search for Wiki in the marketing list back to 2003. Its enlightening to read some of the comments and wonder why this didn't happen in an Open Source project a long time ago. That is the root of the frustration and if you feel it after 2 days and Steven after a few weeks think what it is like for people who have been here for years ;-) Think also of those that left. Here is an extract from a private E-mail sent to me on Feb 16 2003 by someone who quit shortly afterwards. "Again, where can I put my input and make it visible to this forum for criticism. I do not care if it is a "wiki" or a "wako". Just start somewhere if there is nothing, build on what there is but enlighten me where I can find that "whatever there is"!" At that time I was arguing for the status quo. I was wrong. Hopefully the Wiki is the start of better days. -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Ian Lynch schreef: On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 10:24 -0500, Chad Smith wrote: Of course, there is pontital for exploitation - anyone wants to kill a thread that they don't agree with - they just reply using the [FLAME] marker - but the next person could not reply to that post or simply remove it from the subject line I dunno, just thinking out loud here. What do you think? I think it would be better to talk about marketing strategy and actions and not get emotionally wound up at perceived criticism. But perhaps that is too much to ask ;-) Strategy is important as well as development. The strategy to go for a wiki is a good one. Question is why it took 5 years to realise it, not to blame anyone but to make sure we are more productive in the future. Because there is no strategy... a quote from RealGrouchy: "My focus in this discussion is on the use of the wiki for brainstorming and idea development, not for decision-making. I feel that a wiki should be what a wiki is: You post stuff, and if people don't like it, they change or delete it. The website is for the finished product." This actually is a very good idea... Having a website for marketing purposes... Something like a "end user layer"... This has been proposed several times and enden up to be a the wiki. Unsuitable for those needs but great for brainstorming, where it not that it had to be organised and structured to be a replacement for the existing marketing development website. I strongly advice all to listen to RealGrouchy. He knows what he is talking about!!. Steven P - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
RealGrouchy (CAM) schreef: LOL The most important rule in communicating over the internet is to be very clear. If someone else is unclear, ask for clarification. If you're going to go ahead and assume the meaning of what they said, ALWAYS assume the BEST. Steven made a mistake by using a wonderfully poetic, but equally unclear and explosive, way of communicating. Chad also did wrong by turning it into a flame war. I've been on here for two days, and already my inbox has been filled with lots of discussion, mainly on stuff that I'm not familiar with, and mostly on stuff that has more to do with internal procedures than with marketing OOo. If the list doesn't have to see it, don't send it to the entire list. More lists is _not_ a solution. I would like to weigh in on the whole "logo" controversy: - I believe that OOo should have a consistent look accross all of the OFFICIAL places that it uses its logos (Openoffice.org, oooforum.com, etc.). This is what is meant by consistency. If someone wants to print off a CD and stick a label on it, they can use a crayon for all I care. I believe that the best intent of the logo is "we will mandate this for our own use, and encourage it for others". That doesn't mean we can't change it in the future if someone comes up with a better one. - Making a single suite of logos that we use (from splash screen, to box packaging, to CD labels, CD packaging, and even the web icons) and making it available as a package will definitely make our preferred logos easier for others to adopt. If some would like changes to be made, it would be better on all sides if we are open to people suggesting we modify the suite of logos (inclusive), than to force them to fork (exclusive). I.e., if we decide on this logo, we're deciding for now, not forever! - Right now, I'm looking at three different OOo icons on my screen, the birds are flying at different angles in each one, they all have different colour schemes, and they are all diferent from the OEM logo now under consideration. - But right now, we want to make an OEM logo, and we currently don't have one. Let's make one, independent of what all the other logos look like, so that we can move on to marketing and shipping this sticker. - When that's done and we have time to make a consistent look for all icons, we can change them then. Thank you for this contribution. here you touch exactly the problem that keeps everyone busy to react to people who do not find what they are looking for because it is not clear what exists, what has to be done. These logo's exist and there is even a Style guide (though still in progress). Soving the problem as you define above is nice, and somewhat what I tried to do. Now it resides in the same disorganised way to newbies (organised chaos to others) in the wiki. I support the idea to use the wiki for developping processes only and once a decission is made, it should be moved to a clear and well structured website. The OEM label has been a Art project issue for some time and has reached the point where art has presented some poposals to be voted on the marketing dev list. IMHO, once decided, it should be moven to a webpage in a website that holds all but official voted or decided logo, marketing material. I love the idea of packages. These could be presented to Native language projects. They could dontribute to translating them and the art project could implement the translations and bundle new packages. I like the track you are riding on :) As a new Marketing volunteer, I have had to fight through a lot of technical jungles and read a lot of lists of procedure just to get involved. We should simplify and clarify the instructions for getting involved so that a person doesn't have to be as hardcore as I am to not get turned off by these obstacles! Indeed :) same here. I forced myselve to retry several times. This indicates something... (i keep repeating myselve I know...) Use of technology is important to this. On a wiki, it should be easy to look at what has been said and decided, what there is to do, and do it. On a mailing list, there should be more sitting back and seeing how things work, since it is difficult/not possible to look through the archives and parse what information is important (on a wiki, presumably the important information is the stuff that stays up). +1 As I suggested before: - Wiki should be for idea development +1 - Mailing list should be fore discussion and decision making* +1 - Website should be for finished product. This kind of website has been a discussion for some time, so it seems and I brought it up when I started, but it seems to be countered every time. I see one solution: Anyone in for a go on a marketing website, I'll provide hosting, PHP4, MySQL. I'll do what some say I don't. I'll just do it. As for the project leaders (the initial reason for this debate)... If you're presenting a case, support it. The o
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 12:00 -0500, Chad Smith wrote: > On 2/21/06, Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > In this medium better to judge people by what they say rather than how > > its said. > > > > ROTFLOL!!! > > This coming from the man who tried to have me removed from the open source > movement because he didn't like the way I said things!!! Actually it was the fact that you were constantly supporting our main competitor - that's substantially what you said not how you said it, although I guess posting pages of rants when lines of succinct prose would do is an element of how. Anyway I have mellowed with age so no point in dwelling on the past :-) -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 10:24 -0500, Chad Smith wrote: > Of course, there is > pontital for exploitation - anyone wants to kill a thread that they don't > agree with - they just reply using the [FLAME] marker - but the next person > could not reply to that post or simply remove it from the subject line > I dunno, just thinking out loud here. What do you think? I think it would be better to talk about marketing strategy and actions and not get emotionally wound up at perceived criticism. But perhaps that is too much to ask ;-) Strategy is important as well as development. The strategy to go for a wiki is a good one. Question is why it took 5 years to realise it, not to blame anyone but to make sure we are more productive in the future. -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
The most important rule in communicating over the internet is to be very clear. If someone else is unclear, ask for clarification. If you're going to go ahead and assume the meaning of what they said, ALWAYS assume the BEST. Steven made a mistake by using a wonderfully poetic, but equally unclear and explosive, way of communicating. Chad also did wrong by turning it into a flame war. I've been on here for two days, and already my inbox has been filled with lots of discussion, mainly on stuff that I'm not familiar with, and mostly on stuff that has more to do with internal procedures than with marketing OOo. If the list doesn't have to see it, don't send it to the entire list. More lists is _not_ a solution. I would like to weigh in on the whole "logo" controversy: - I believe that OOo should have a consistent look accross all of the OFFICIAL places that it uses its logos (Openoffice.org, oooforum.com, etc.). This is what is meant by consistency. If someone wants to print off a CD and stick a label on it, they can use a crayon for all I care. I believe that the best intent of the logo is "we will mandate this for our own use, and encourage it for others". That doesn't mean we can't change it in the future if someone comes up with a better one. - Making a single suite of logos that we use (from splash screen, to box packaging, to CD labels, CD packaging, and even the web icons) and making it available as a package will definitely make our preferred logos easier for others to adopt. If some would like changes to be made, it would be better on all sides if we are open to people suggesting we modify the suite of logos (inclusive), than to force them to fork (exclusive). I.e., if we decide on this logo, we're deciding for now, not forever! - Right now, I'm looking at three different OOo icons on my screen, the birds are flying at different angles in each one, they all have different colour schemes, and they are all diferent from the OEM logo now under consideration. - But right now, we want to make an OEM logo, and we currently don't have one. Let's make one, independent of what all the other logos look like, so that we can move on to marketing and shipping this sticker. - When that's done and we have time to make a consistent look for all icons, we can change them then. As a new Marketing volunteer, I have had to fight through a lot of technical jungles and read a lot of lists of procedure just to get involved. We should simplify and clarify the instructions for getting involved so that a person doesn't have to be as hardcore as I am to not get turned off by these obstacles! Use of technology is important to this. On a wiki, it should be easy to look at what has been said and decided, what there is to do, and do it. On a mailing list, there should be more sitting back and seeing how things work, since it is difficult/not possible to look through the archives and parse what information is important (on a wiki, presumably the important information is the stuff that stays up). As I suggested before: - Wiki should be for idea development - Mailing list should be fore discussion and decision making* - Website should be for finished product. As for the project leaders (the initial reason for this debate)... If you're presenting a case, support it. The onus is on you to present support for your argument, not on others to "read back". I for one, am not able to "read back", and even if I could, would not waste my time in doing to. If you're communicating online, if someone offends you, suck it down and be polite. As Mark Twain said, "Don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself." *Lastly, this whole process confuses me. Obviously, I have shown that I am a fan of Wikis. However, this group has historically done most of its work on this list. I think it would be easier to keep track of "vote tallies" and people's opinions if they were taken on the wiki. But that's just me. - RG> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On 2/21/06, Ian Lynch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In this medium better to judge people by what they say rather than how > its said. > ROTFLOL!!! This coming from the man who tried to have me removed from the open source movement because he didn't like the way I said things!!! -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hello, > > +1 for an official warning prior to banning Steve if he continues to > show disrespect for the others here. (How many votes do I need?) +1. Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Ian Lynch wrote: >On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 15:29 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > > >>Hello, >> >> >> >>>+1 for an official warning prior to banning Steve if he continues to >>>show disrespect for the others here. (How many votes do I need?) >>> >>> >>+1. >> >> > >Hm, someone says things you don't like so you want him banned. When the >same call was made against Chad just a few months ago what was the >outcome? > > > No, I did not vote because I didn't like the things Steven said, I vote because I didn't like to way he said them. Best, Charles. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 17:36 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > Ian Lynch wrote: > No, I did not vote because I didn't like the things Steven said, I vote > because I didn't like to way he said them. That's probably worse, particularly since his English is about as good as my French ;-) In this medium better to judge people by what they say rather than how its said. -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Cristian Driga wrote: Let's do something about it now. And lets enforce this. [EMAIL PROTECTED] should mean only forward movement, cooperation, etc. Not useless fights. You'll soon hit the problem that different people will disagree on which arguments are valuable and which are useless. I haven't thought about this very much, but one solution might be to have a vote on issues that seem to be dragging along indefinitely. In cases where it seems that we will never get a clear concensus, a vote is a way to at least end the thread. It's also easier to say "go to social" if you have a clear majority vote saying so. I don't generally suggest votes for open source projects (they short-circuit what can be useful discussion) but they do have their place. Best, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Chad Smith schreef: [...] I for one do not want to vote Steven off the island. I think it would be pointless - as Ian pointed out. My votes of no confidence in Steven were more to illustrate my point against him using the same ludrious method he tried to use again the Project leads. They were not meant to actually get him "removed" from anything. I am happy to see that you think as the voting of being ludicrous. You as well as I know it would not have any effect and I have seen one good reaction to it... :) thank you Cor. Maybe to address Cristian's real concerns - we should start putting a [FLAME] label in the subject lines. This would allow anyone to filter out those threads - and people who enjoy debate to find them easier. (Drawn like moths to a flame... well, whaddyaknow! it fits!) Of course, there is pontital for exploitation - anyone wants to kill a thread that they don't agree with - they just reply using the [FLAME] marker - but the next person could not reply to that post or simply remove it from the subject line I dunno, just thinking out loud here. What do you think? There is another solution here. Considering that there actualy is a management problem. I would like to refer to Ian's posts on the same issue. Unfortunately, there is no opening for that discussion at all. Now yet another solution that creates a lock out situation for anything that is regarded not te be a problem is proposed. I have been looking hard for the open in OOo marketing community, but have not found it yet. People seem to want to run away from things they do not like or do not agree with. Move it to another list... Steven P -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Daniel Carrera schreef: Cristian Driga wrote: It took me 2-3 months before I understood how things work when I joined and then I started participating. And it passed another 2-3 months before what I did started to show results. As nobody here is full time employee you should expect lack of response even to good ideas and you should continue untill they get roots and flourish. This is something you seem not to understand in an open source project. I want to be a bit careful here. I don't want to support Steven's approach, because I think it was too aggressive to be helpful. I know it is agressive and that is because of only one reason. People tell me that OOo marketing sucks and that leads this and that and they do not have the guts to react. The burocracy in this is unreal. If this were openminded opensource, it would not be like this. But regardless of who's right and who'se wrong, I'd like to make a small comment about this paragraph: 4-6 months seems like an awfully long lead time. Open source is supposed to evolve quickly because it doesn't have the restraints that a Cathedral has. Other open source projects don't have a 4-6 month wait between first appearance and first contribution. In other projects I've seen, it's been more like 1-2 weeks. Thank you Daniel. The OOo marketing project is focused on personal contribution and wanting to be a part of it seems lake a big deal. So is the huge demand for respect for who did what. I have seen discussions about who started something... This is all about getting aknowledgement and approval. I have a different mindset, I will not claim any work done by me or as result of any of my actions. I have seen very valuable volunteers and contributors leave because of this and think it is a waste. I do not get it. The last two or three weeks since we've started the wiki in an attempt to solve the lack of interactive tools problem, the project is in changing. Cristian, I think you've done a fantastic work with the wiki and moving the project forward. Best, Daniel. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 15:29 +0100, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: > Hello, > > > > > +1 for an official warning prior to banning Steve if he continues to > > show disrespect for the others here. (How many votes do I need?) > > +1. Hm, someone says things you don't like so you want him banned. When the same call was made against Chad just a few months ago what was the outcome? In amongst all the bile and emotion there are some issues worth considering. The OOo marketing project has some characteristics of a cathedral and other characteristics of a bazaar. The "I'm more Open Source than You" childishness doesn't actually get us anywhere. Successful organisations are not bound up by cathedral-like bureaucracy and neither are they amorphous anarchies. Successful organisations are usually characterised by Strong and clear leadership that tolerates and copes with dissent Management that maximises the resources available to the best benefit of the organisation Management that inspires motivation to go beyond the call of duty Management that is impartial and identifies expertise and resources where others don't see the potential Management that is self-confident and flexible enough to use expertise and resources from any source I doubt it matters whether they are cathedrals, bazaars or governments for that matter. -- Ian Lynch www.theINGOTs.org www.opendocumentfellowship.org www.schoolforge.org.uk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Cristian Driga wrote: It took me 2-3 months before I understood how things work when I joined and then I started participating. And it passed another 2-3 months before what I did started to show results. As nobody here is full time employee you should expect lack of response even to good ideas and you should continue untill they get roots and flourish. This is something you seem not to understand in an open source project. I want to be a bit careful here. I don't want to support Steven's approach, because I think it was too aggressive to be helpful. But regardless of who's right and who'se wrong, I'd like to make a small comment about this paragraph: 4-6 months seems like an awfully long lead time. Open source is supposed to evolve quickly because it doesn't have the restraints that a Cathedral has. Other open source projects don't have a 4-6 month wait between first appearance and first contribution. In other projects I've seen, it's been more like 1-2 weeks. I do not get it. The last two or three weeks since we've started the wiki in an attempt to solve the lack of interactive tools problem, the project is in changing. Cristian, I think you've done a fantastic work with the wiki and moving the project forward. Best, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi everybody, Just a note. I'll get back to productive things. I sincerely apologize to all the list members who did not wanted to receive more fights in their inboxes. I really think this discussion should not be held on this list. This list is supposed to be ONLY for working. PROPOSAL to John: I know there is a list called [EMAIL PROTECTED] and one called [EMAIL PROTECTED] but some members willing to debate only about marketing consider those as not being suitable for internal marketing debates. Therefore my proposals: 1. Either we create a [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list and enforce that all non-productive threads should be directed there. 2. Or we enforce that this kind of threads be directed to the existing social or discuss. But we have the responsibility of preserving the inbox space of our subscribers and also let them catch up with effective working things. Let's do something about it now. And lets enforce this. [EMAIL PROTECTED] should mean only forward movement, cooperation, etc. Not useless fights. Thousand apologies again to all of you listening. :( Best, Cristian Steven Pauwels wrote: Cristian Driga schreef: Steven Pauwels wrote: I am happy to see that all of you consider yourselves professionals in netiquette and working in a FOSS project. Well, I invite you to find the threads where I broke the nettiquette. You are talking it personally, inspite of the fact that I aim at no person. Sorry you do so. None of you even react to the fact that I am talking about profesiionalism in marketing. Well, I am for one interested and what is next to do. If you noticed this is the purpose of this list. "dev" comes from development. Reacting the way you do is only a demagogue cry to suppress criticism. OK. Continue your way. The success in open source projects is at hand this way :) Cristian Driga schreef: I totally agree with Chad and I am outraged by the lack of politeness, respect and lack of real interest of helping out and doing real work that Steven has shown. No attempt to first understand the written and non-written rules of this project at all. Most off you have shown disrespect for these rules in prior posts. Most of me ? :) Again. If you want to take words out of a sentence and react to it. Most of you is not a singular form to my knowledge. Anyway... find please in all past 4 year of participation on the lists the places where _I_'ve been disrespectfull regarding the rules and where I've been counter-productive or disrupting constructive threads. Please. Personally... More: In all the postings I saw there was one single main idea: Steven is the best marketing specialist ever and we are nothing and we do not want to listen to him. What are you affraid of? These are your words, not mine. I have only said what experience I have and that I want to contribute. Read the art list. Some people actually appreciate experience and are not affraid of it.. Many people come here telling what expertise they have. It is the normal way of introducing themselves. And I believe it is normal that wehen you volunteer you teel what you can do because you expect some reaction and maybe a coordinated effort to help new volunteers to get started. The opposite happened here. We got that, and I was even happier when you started that page in the wiki. It took me 2-3 months before I understood how things work when I joined and then I started participating. And it passed another 2-3 months before what I did started to show results. As nobody here is full time employee you should expect lack of response even to good ideas and you should continue untill they get roots and flourish. This is something you seem not to understand in an open source project. I know the art list, I created it and the art project together with other members willing to work and help. And I follow that list when I have the chance as my daily work overwhelmes me. Your posts there prove that when you want you can really help and cooperate. No, they prove that some people actually value experience and use it. it actually helps. No wish to collaborate,no nettiquette, ignoring calls for reasoning and understanding each other, not to mention ignoring other members who try to offer advice in continuing to build up on great ideas he has spoke about. These are no more then low aimed accusations. Well ? I can attach here also the direct emails I sent to you on starting cooperating on marketing I have not received any direct emails from you. Not one. and in the wiki and I can link to threads I've started attempting to communicate with you in the last 3 weeks and to which I did not received any response. Ok. Please do so. (See for example the *lack of response to invitation to discuss seriously on this thread* [Uniform message and look [WAS Re: Vote about official OpenOffice.org OEM label
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Chad Smith wrote: Maybe to address Cristian's real concerns - we should start putting a [FLAME] label in the subject lines. This would allow anyone to filter out those threads - and people who enjoy debate to find them easier. (Drawn like moths to a flame... well, whaddyaknow! it fits!) Of course, there is pontital for exploitation - anyone wants to kill a thread that they don't agree with - they just reply using the [FLAME] marker - but the next person could not reply to that post or simply remove it from the subject line I dunno, just thinking out loud here. What do you think? If you pick a keyword that doesn't have a negative connocation you might get more people using it. For example, call it [DEBATE]. A debate is not a bad thing, and can be very productive. Some people will honestly be interested in productive debates. If you respond to one of my emails with the title [FLAME] you might just start a flame :) But if you use [DEBATE] I think I'd just accept it as a way of labeling the topic. Cheers, Daniel. -- /\/`) http://opendocumentfellowship.org /\/_/ /\/_/ I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for \/_/ stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels / off of everything and let the problem solve itslef? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Cristian Driga schreef: Steven Pauwels wrote: I am happy to see that all of you consider yourselves professionals in netiquette and working in a FOSS project. Well, I invite you to find the threads where I broke the nettiquette. You are talking it personally, inspite of the fact that I aim at no person. Sorry you do so. None of you even react to the fact that I am talking about profesiionalism in marketing. Well, I am for one interested and what is next to do. If you noticed this is the purpose of this list. "dev" comes from development. Reacting the way you do is only a demagogue cry to suppress criticism. OK. Continue your way. The success in open source projects is at hand this way :) Cristian Driga schreef: I totally agree with Chad and I am outraged by the lack of politeness, respect and lack of real interest of helping out and doing real work that Steven has shown. No attempt to first understand the written and non-written rules of this project at all. Most off you have shown disrespect for these rules in prior posts. Most of me ? :) Again. If you want to take words out of a sentence and react to it. Most of you is not a singular form to my knowledge. Anyway... find please in all past 4 year of participation on the lists the places where _I_'ve been disrespectfull regarding the rules and where I've been counter-productive or disrupting constructive threads. Please. Personally... More: In all the postings I saw there was one single main idea: Steven is the best marketing specialist ever and we are nothing and we do not want to listen to him. What are you affraid of? These are your words, not mine. I have only said what experience I have and that I want to contribute. Read the art list. Some people actually appreciate experience and are not affraid of it.. Many people come here telling what expertise they have. It is the normal way of introducing themselves. And I believe it is normal that wehen you volunteer you teel what you can do because you expect some reaction and maybe a coordinated effort to help new volunteers to get started. The opposite happened here. We got that, and I was even happier when you started that page in the wiki. It took me 2-3 months before I understood how things work when I joined and then I started participating. And it passed another 2-3 months before what I did started to show results. As nobody here is full time employee you should expect lack of response even to good ideas and you should continue untill they get roots and flourish. This is something you seem not to understand in an open source project. I know the art list, I created it and the art project together with other members willing to work and help. And I follow that list when I have the chance as my daily work overwhelmes me. Your posts there prove that when you want you can really help and cooperate. No, they prove that some people actually value experience and use it. it actually helps. No wish to collaborate,no nettiquette, ignoring calls for reasoning and understanding each other, not to mention ignoring other members who try to offer advice in continuing to build up on great ideas he has spoke about. These are no more then low aimed accusations. Well ? I can attach here also the direct emails I sent to you on starting cooperating on marketing I have not received any direct emails from you. Not one. and in the wiki and I can link to threads I've started attempting to communicate with you in the last 3 weeks and to which I did not received any response. Ok. Please do so. (See for example the *lack of response to invitation to discuss seriously on this thread* [Uniform message and look [WAS Re: Vote about official OpenOffice.org OEM label]]) I believe I have done the same previeously on many threads I started and can you shopw me one where that was respected? I do not get it. The last two or three weeks since we've started the wiki in an attempt to solve the lack of interactive tools problem, the project is in changing. Too long in the last year there were persons here only breaking the basic rules and right now we were in anoter phase, of getting back to constructive discussions. This untill you started again yesterday to do these disrespectfull interventions in the list. The very disrespectfulle intervention on the list by John on the efforts of the art project will have my reaction every time he repeats that. I've had discussions and arguments and questions on how to work in the art list and these bare fruit. Unlike most here. I am well aware that there might be serious reasons for Jacqueline not to be around lately but she will be back on the list asap. But taking advantage of this and starting riots is something we do not need. Firstly, I do not know of here whereabouts, Secondly, I can only start a riot if there is follow up. Are you affraid
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
On 2/21/06, Cristian Driga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > PROPOSAL to John: > I know there is a list called [EMAIL PROTECTED] and one called [EMAIL > PROTECTED] > but some members willing to debate only about marketing consider those > as not being suitable for internal marketing debates. > > Therefore my proposals: > 1. Either we create a [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list and > enforce that all non-productive threads should be directed there. > > 2. Or we enforce that this kind of threads be directed to the existing > social or discuss. But we have the responsibility of preserving the > inbox space of our subscribers and also let them catch up with effective > working things. I'm sorry - but the last thing we need is yet another mailing lists. The purpose of mailing lists is to communicate - if that communication is productive or combative or both, that's not the point. The point is this is where we talk. I think this thread has everything to do with Marketing and belongs on the Marketing list. It doesn't not belong on discuss@ because it's not a project wide thing - it doesn't belong on social@ because it's not off-topic. This thread doesn't need to spread to other mailing lists. It needs to be handled here. I for one do not want to vote Steven off the island. I think it would be pointless - as Ian pointed out. My votes of no confidence in Steven were more to illustrate my point against him using the same ludrious method he tried to use again the Project leads. They were not meant to actually get him "removed" from anything. Maybe to address Cristian's real concerns - we should start putting a [FLAME] label in the subject lines. This would allow anyone to filter out those threads - and people who enjoy debate to find them easier. (Drawn like moths to a flame... well, whaddyaknow! it fits!) Of course, there is pontital for exploitation - anyone wants to kill a thread that they don't agree with - they just reply using the [FLAME] marker - but the next person could not reply to that post or simply remove it from the subject line I dunno, just thinking out loud here. What do you think? -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Steven Pauwels wrote: I am happy to see that all of you consider yourselves professionals in netiquette and working in a FOSS project. Well, I invite you to find the threads where I broke the nettiquette. None of you even react to the fact that I am talking about profesiionalism in marketing. Well, I am for one interested and what is next to do. If you noticed this is the purpose of this list. "dev" comes from development. Reacting the way you do is only a demagogue cry to suppress criticism. OK. Continue your way. The success in open source projects is at hand this way :) Cristian Driga schreef: I totally agree with Chad and I am outraged by the lack of politeness, respect and lack of real interest of helping out and doing real work that Steven has shown. No attempt to first understand the written and non-written rules of this project at all. Most off you have shown disrespect for these rules in prior posts. Most of me ? :) Anyway... find please in all past 4 year of participation on the lists the places where _I_'ve been disrespectfull regarding the rules and where I've been counter-productive or disrupting constructive threads. Please. More: In all the postings I saw there was one single main idea: Steven is the best marketing specialist ever and we are nothing and we do not want to listen to him. What are you affraid of? These are your words, not mine. I have only said what experience I have and that I want to contribute. Read the art list. Some people actually appreciate experience and are not affraid of it.. Many people come here telling what expertise they have. It is the normal way of introducing themselves. We got that, and I was even happier when you started that page in the wiki. It took me 2-3 months before I understood how things work when I joined and then I started participating. And it passed another 2-3 months before what I did started to show results. As nobody here is full time employee you should expect lack of response even to good ideas and you should continue untill they get roots and flourish. This is something you seem not to understand in an open source project. I know the art list, I created it and the art project together with other members willing to work and help. And I follow that list when I have the chance as my daily work overwhelmes me. Your posts there prove that when you want you can really help and cooperate. No wish to collaborate,no nettiquette, ignoring calls for reasoning and understanding each other, not to mention ignoring other members who try to offer advice in continuing to build up on great ideas he has spoke about. These are no more then low aimed accusations. Well ? I can attach here also the direct emails I sent to you on starting cooperating on marketing and in the wiki and I can link to threads I've started attempting to communicate with you in the last 3 weeks and to which I did not received any response. (See for example the *lack of response to invitation to discuss seriously on this thread* [Uniform message and look [WAS Re: Vote about official OpenOffice.org OEM label]]) I believe I have done the same previeously on many threads I started and can you shopw me one where that was respected? I do not get it. The last two or three weeks since we've started the wiki in an attempt to solve the lack of interactive tools problem, the project is in changing. Too long in the last year there were persons here only breaking the basic rules and right now we were in anoter phase, of getting back to constructive discussions. This untill you started again yesterday to do these disrespectfull interventions in the list. I am well aware that there might be serious reasons for Jacqueline not to be around lately but she will be back on the list asap. But taking advantage of this and starting riots is something we do not need. Firstly, I do not know of here whereabouts, Secondly, I can only start a riot if there is follow up. Are you affraid there is? I *perfectly know* that her real life keeps her right now away from Internet. This is why you did not see any response from her. NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORED. If you believe that very well. The idea is that we, the other members are here and know her better than you and we know one thing, that even when the lead is away, we have to continue here. MORE: the reaction of deleting your own page in the wiki because, I suppose you did not get a sign from the leads, Completely wrong. I do not need a sign frfom leads. I need them to take responsability and actually manage marketing for OOo. Would you be happy that because of personal problems you were not around and someone else would decide that you are not a professional because you do not respond to emails ? You have to show more Steven before you are recognized. This is meritocracy. Not like in firms, here you have to prove yourself in a longer per
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
:-) Steven Pauwels wrote: -1 for confidence in Marketing PL. -1 for Marketing PL capability. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Who are you? Where do you come from? What right do you have to call for a vote of confidence in anything? You've been on the lists, what, a month? Show me one line of code you've contributed. Show me one convert you've switched to OpenOffice.org. Show me one website you've gotten to add a "Download OpenOffice.org" button. Who are you? You don't just barge into a project and start demanding changes. If you don't like the way things are done, fine, but for a "marketing expert" you sure don't seem to know the first thing about working with people. In the past month since you've been here, I've seen more infighting among the marketing volunteers than the entire 2 years I've been on it. Do you think that is a coincidence? You have no title, no rank, and as far as I'm concerned no earned merit in the OpenOffice.org community to start a no confidence vote on anybody or anything. You are right, this is an open source project, so anyone can volunteer - but it's a meritocrity - a "doocrity" - and all I've ever seen you do is bitch about the way things are done. I tell you what, Mr. Marketing Degree, you start advertising OOo, and when we see our downloads jump up - then you'll have some clout. A true "marketing expert" who is going to start a no confidence vote would maybe write a sentence or two explaining why such a vote is called for. You didn't do that, did ya Steve? If this is about John saying we should offer more than one button - it's based on a little something you seem to have none of - and that's experience working with an open source project. In the world of open source you *can't* control your image the way you can in a propriatary world. If someone wants to fire-up MS Paint and free-hand draw an OOo logo (using their mouse) and put that as the splash screen - they can. They want to hand out copies of OOo (with butcher splash screen) on a CD that's not labeled - they can. They want to hand write with a Sharpie the words "Open Office" on the CD, they can. In fact, they do. And you know what? That's okay - because they are still handing out copies of OpenOffice.org. What John was saying was "if they don't like our official logo - they are not going to use it. It would be better if we gave them some options that we like rather than to leave them to come up with something on their own." That is smart. That inspires confidence in me. I trust's John's capability to understand open source culture and make an informed suggestion, (which he did, of course, leave open as a suggestion to the community - not some sort of order). -1 confidence in Steven Pauwels -1 for Steven Pauwels capability +1 for confidence in the Project Lead of Marketing - Jacqueline McNally +1 for confidence in the Project Lead of Marketing - John McCreesh +1 for Project Lead of Marketing - Jacqueline McNally's capabilities +1 for Project Lead of Marketing - John McCreesh's capabilities You know what I think, Stevo - I think you want to lead OOo Marketing, and I think you want to do it so you can put it on your resume - not so you can help the OpenOffice.org project. You probably think it would easier to take over some volunteer project than get a real advertising job. I think if you somehow *did* become Marketing Lead, you'd disappear in a heartbeat if someone offered you a "real job" that was "more important". You probably wouldn't even bother to tell us you were leaving - just stop interacting with the project. This is bullcrap, and you need to stop. On 2/21/06, Steven Pauwels <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > -1 for confidence in Marketing PL. > -1 for Marketing PL capability. -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software!
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi Steven Steven Pauwels wrote: If you want the project to be (what you think is) professional, deliver professional contributions. Show your work and people will use it and respect it. The longer postings about what should be done and how, the less serious (I in my opninion, of course). Kindest regards, Cor -- Cor Nouws www.nouenoff.nl - www.bsooo.nl - http://nl.openoffice.org Open. For business. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
Hi, Chad Smith wrote: Who are you? Where do you come from? What right do you have to call for a vote of confidence in anything? You've been on the lists, what, a month? Show me one line of code you've contributed. Show me one convert you've switched to OpenOffice.org. Show me one website you've gotten to add a "Download OpenOffice.org" button. Who are you? I totally agree with Chad and I am outraged by the lack of politeness, respect and lack of real interest of helping out and doing real work that Steven has shown. No attempt to first understand the written and non-written rules of this project at all. More: In all the postings I saw there was one single main idea: Steven is the best marketing specialist ever and we are nothing and we do not want to listen to him. No wish to collaborate, no nettiquette, ignoring calls for reasoning and understanding each other, not to mention ignoring other members who try to offer advice in continuing to build up on great ideas he has spoke about. (See for example the lack of response to invitation to discuss seriously on this thread: [Uniform message and look [WAS Re: Vote about official OpenOffice.org OEM label]]) I am well aware that there might be serious reasons for Jacqueline not to be around lately but she will be back on the list asap. But taking advantage of this and starting riots is something we do not need. MORE: the reaction of deleting your own page in the wiki because, I suppose you did not get a sign from the leads, is that of an immature person. NOT A PROFESSIONAL. > > -1 confidence in Steven Pauwels > -1 for Steven Pauwels capability > > +1 for confidence in the Project Lead of Marketing - Jacqueline McNally > +1 for confidence in the Project Lead of Marketing - John McCreesh > > +1 for Project Lead of Marketing - Jacqueline McNally's capabilities > +1 for Project Lead of Marketing - John McCreesh's capabilities > I totally agree. -1 for Steven in everything I would preffer a less specialist but who is willing to cooperate in looking for solutions. + 1 for Jacqueline and John and all the marveouls things they have done. AND SINCE IS VOTING SEASON :) A NEW VOTE PROPOSAL: +1 for an official warning prior to banning Steve if he continues to show disrespect for the others here. Best, Cristian -- - Chad Smith http://www.gimpshop.net/ Because everyone loves free software! -- Cristian DRIGA == OpenOffice.org Romanian Native Language Project Lead [EMAIL PROTECTED] ro.openoffice.org www.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Marketing] things should change. vote of confidence and capability.
I am happy to see that all of you consider yourselves professionals in netiquette and working in a FOSS project. None of you even react to the fact that I am talking about profesiionalism in marketing. Reacting the way you do is only a demagogue cry to suppress criticism. Cristian Driga schreef: Hi, Chad Smith wrote: Who are you? Where do you come from? What right do you have to call for a vote of confidence in anything? You've been on the lists, what, a month? Show me one line of code you've contributed. Show me one convert you've switched to OpenOffice.org. Show me one website you've gotten to add a "Download OpenOffice.org" button. Who are you? I totally agree with Chad and I am outraged by the lack of politeness, respect and lack of real interest of helping out and doing real work that Steven has shown. No attempt to first understand the written and non-written rules of this project at all. Most off you have shown disrespect for these rules in prior posts. More: In all the postings I saw there was one single main idea: Steven is the best marketing specialist ever and we are nothing and we do not want to listen to him. What are you affraid of? These are your words, not mine. I have only said what experience I have and that I want to contribute. Read the art list. Some people actually appreciate experience and are not affraid of it.. No wish to collaborate,no nettiquette, ignoring calls for reasoning and understanding each other, not to mention ignoring other members who try to offer advice in continuing to build up on great ideas he has spoke about. These are no more then low aimed accusations. (See for example the *lack of response to invitation to discuss seriously on this thread* [Uniform message and look [WAS Re: Vote about official OpenOffice.org OEM label]]) I believe I have done the same previeously on many threads I started and can you shopw me one where that was respected? I am well aware that there might be serious reasons for Jacqueline not to be around lately but she will be back on the list asap. But taking advantage of this and starting riots is something we do not need. Firstly, I do not know of here whereabouts, Secondly, I can only start a riot if there is follow up. Are you affraid there is? MORE: the reaction of deleting your own page in the wiki because, I suppose you did not get a sign from the leads, Completely wrong. I do not need a sign frfom leads. I need them to take responsability and actually manage marketing for OOo. is that of an immature person. So If I wish not to contribute anymore, I cannnto decide on what happens with what I contributed? NOT A PROFESSIONAL. > > -1 confidence in Steven Pauwels > -1 for Steven Pauwels capability > > +1 for confidence in the Project Lead of Marketing - Jacqueline McNally > +1 for confidence in the Project Lead of Marketing - John McCreesh > > +1 for Project Lead of Marketing - Jacqueline McNally's capabilities > +1 for Project Lead of Marketing - John McCreesh's capabilities > I totally agree. -1 for Steven in everything I would preffer a less specialist but who is willing to cooperate in looking for solutions. Try and read what I have proposed. The only problem is that I am not willing to repeat myselve a thousand times untill all of you stop picking on whatever minor thing you do not agree on because you do not understand. + 1 for Jacqueline and John and all the marveouls things they have done. AND SINCE IS VOTING SEASON :) A NEW VOTE PROPOSAL: +1 for an official warning prior to banning Steve if he continues to show disrespect for the others here. I have no disrecpect for persons, but do not agree with the way things are done. Shure is a different thing. But to help you, I'll vote too +1 for an official warning prior to banning Steve if he continues to show disrespect for the others here. (How many votes do I need?) Steven P. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
