Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: Dave Bernstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] I suspect what Simon means is that the UI portion of his application contains code whose copyright is held by individuals other than him, thereby precluding release to open source without the holder's approval. Spot on. I use a commercial library from Codejock - www.codejock.com - this cannot be distributed. I also use other commercial libraries with similar restrictions. I can only ship the runtime libraries or link the code into my executable. Another reason for not making the UI code OpenSource is that we end up with a myriad of product variants, also I then get bombarded with questions about porting to Linux / MacOS, how do I compile etc. Simon Brown --- www.sysgem.com
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spot on. I use a commercial library from Codejock - www.codejock.com - this cannot be distributed. I also use other commercial libraries with similar restrictions. I can only ship the runtime libraries or link the code into my executable. You don't have to distribute their libraries to open your source, unless their API is covered by an NDA. As far as questions about myriad versions go, Let us all know when you find out! is as good an answer as any. 73 Frank AB2KT
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: Frank Brickle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copyright and Open Source are not opposites. Copyright ownership is the precise legal foundation of, for example, the General Public License (GPL). No matter, the terms under which I use this code specifically disallow redistribution. Simon Brown, HB9DRV
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
On Jan 13, 2007, at 6:29 PM, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: - Separating the UI from the modems and rig control and using a protocol between them would make it easier to write platform-specific best-of-breed UIs. PSKCore.DLL is OK for this approach for Windows, but as it uses the Microsoft component implementation framework, it doesn't help cross-platform, just cross-application. If developers used hamlib for the rig control part of the application, that part of the would be solved. -- Alex / AB2RC Running a Linux/Mac installation, where the only windows are in the walls where they belong
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Exactly. My personal experience, which I believe is nearly identical to Frank's, is found in our doing the software defined radio code (which is used now by thousands of radio amateurs and others) finds Simon's fear is misplaced. However, it is a personal (if incorrect ;-) ) decision and his to make. That does not keep us from voting with out fingers and feet and going elsewhere. If Simon's game is the only one in town, then we are left with no choice. DttSP, Flex Radio, GnuRadio, HPSDR, uwSDR, AEA DSP1232/2232 all run code that Frank and/or I have written (along with many others). My experience with open source in these projects is that it has been utterly glorious and the few Neaderthal's that come dragging their knuckles out of their caves are a minor annoyance. We have been aided greatly and have learned a tremendous amount from doing business this way. Soapbox shoved firmly back in to the closet, Bob N4HY Frank Brickle wrote: --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spot on. I use a commercial library from Codejock - www.codejock.com - this cannot be distributed. I also use other commercial libraries with similar restrictions. I can only ship the runtime libraries or link the code into my executable. You don't have to distribute their libraries to open your source, unless their API is covered by an NDA. As far as questions about myriad versions go, Let us all know when you find out! is as good an answer as any. 73 Frank AB2KT Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction. - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
It is apparent that you understand that ownership of a copyright allows you to control its use, even if that control is to allow free use, but your statement has a major semantic flaw-- The words precise and legal are incompatible and should never be used in the same sentence. That's why we have so many lawyers, to debate (for fees) the differences among shall be, will be ,to be and is. Bill-W4BSG At 01:36 AM 1/14/2007, you wrote: --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am *not* making it open source, only the decoding DLL's. The UI will never be open source as it uses copyrighted code. Copyright and Open Source are not opposites. Copyright ownership is the precise legal foundation of, for example, the General Public License (GPL). There is a simple, concise discussion of the issues involved at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html. 73 Frank AB2KT Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some amateurs actually get software written and others who just complain. Sorry, typo in the message, should have said: .. and others who are destined for management. Now back to monitoring 15m PSK. Simon Brown, HB9DRV
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I am referring to your assertion that the impediment is programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Please explain the rationale behind this claim. 73, Dave, AA6YQ Oh, that is easy. Three sources: 1. Programmers who have told me directly that they only know one OS, are not interested in learning any others, and refuse any requests to make their apps cross-platform compatible. 2. Programmers who have written cross-platform compatible apps who have told me of fellow programmers who fit category #1. 3. I know from my own very limited experiences in programming in the past -- I have forgotten more than I ever knew from disuse -- that it was an extra effort to provide for use outside of the most familiar context. Even my HTML is very primitive and I make little or no effort to provide for automated flexibility. I use raw hand-coded HTML and expect Web browsers to handle it correctly. I don't have enough knowledge, nor do I have the time to acquire it, to do more than that. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Peter is mostly correct about this. Microsoft is not involved in this issue at all. If a vendor does not see a market for their product with a given OS, they just are not going to spend the money needed to develop that driver. However, my understanding is that in some cases it is not the vendors who write the drivers as the Linux developers sometimes have reverse engineered them if they really want a particular device to work with their OS. Probably true with other OS's. 73, Rick, KV9U Peter G. Viscarola wrote: It's not anti-competitive, and it's not sponsored or driven by Microsoft. It's just good business sense when viewed form the perspective of the hardware vendors. Hardware vendors are *notoriously* guarded about the details of how their hardware works. This includes the register-level details necessary to write a driver. And this is true for all types of devices that range from support chipsets (such as Southbus/ICH type devices) to commodity peripheral devices (like, say, SCSI adapters). They view their hardware interface as confidential and proprietary -- Sometimes because they think the interface design provides a competitive advantage, sometimes because as soon as an interface design is public they're stuck supporting every detail of it, and sometimes because they don't want their competitors to create register-compatible knock-offs of their devices. The VENDORS are the ones who write the drivers. They choose which O/Ses to write drivers for based on a cost/benefit analysis, taking into account one-time cost for writing the code and the on-going costs of supporting it. Vendors aren't any more forthcoming with Microsoft when it comes to details of how their hardware works. In fact, most typically they're down-right paranoid about it. So, if there aren't a plethora of drivers some flavor of Linux, it's just that the hardware vendor doesn't think writing and supporting a driver for that platform is worth the cost. There's really nothing more to it than that. Microsoft has been involved in a lot of conspiracies and anti-competitive practices, but this isn't one of them. de Peter K1PGV
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
It's not that the distro's are not compatible. Distributions by the different vendors, i.e. redhat, mandrake, suse, puppy, etc. pretty much use the same linux kernels, libraries, and software. They are generally just different conglomerations of software based upon what the distro is aimed at. Where they do differ is the installation package. Some are more thorough and require less input from the user. The other major difference is the support software for installing additional packages. What we're talking about are programs that during the compile process look for a specific library file of say 'needthislibrary.so.1'. Newer distro's may only include 'needthislibrary.so.2' that includes some additional features. If it is backwards compatible you just need to either change the compile/make script or make a logical link from the 'so.1' to the 'so.2' file. If it isn't compatible then you need to start searching. Another thing that occurs is that mandrake may include the library in its distro while suse may not have deemed it worthwhile, so you start searching for the library if you are running suse. It really isn't much different than .dll's used in MS. Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, John Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I rest my case: walt talks about all these different varieties of linux, RedHat,Mandrake,SuSe, puppy linux and Debian, all in one sentence. I take it these OS are not compatible with each other. How the heck can u figure out what runws best with which? John VE5MU
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Peter is mostly correct about this. Microsoft is not involved in this issue at all. If a vendor does not see a market for their product with a given OS, they just are not going to spend the money needed to develop that driver. I am not into conspiracies even the public attacks against Linux by leading MS spokesmen make it clear how much they fear Linux. They have gone to great lengths to falsely bad-mouth Linux and their business partners can read between the lines. Microsoft is not involved in anti-competitive practices just as special interests are not involved in decisionmaking in Congress. Uh huh. Microsoft has a raft of anti-competitive practices charges pending against it in Europe and spent millions barely escaping well-due consequences here in the USA. However, my understanding is that in some cases it is not the vendors who write the drivers as the Linux developers sometimes have reverse engineered them if they really want a particular device to work with their OS. Probably true with other OS's. 73, Rick, KV9U Many, if not most, of the commonly used drivers for thousands of pieces of hardware have been written by individuals in the Linux world because hardware manufacturers fail to provide them. There is no good business reason for their failure given the millions of Linux users. It is hardly a tiny market. Anyhow, what matters is the original issue -- cross- platform apps make the best sense. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I have never met anyone who has developed multi-platform software who claims it is as easy as those who haven't :-) Simon Brown, HB9DRV Who said anything about easy? -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: kd4e [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have never met anyone who has developed multi-platform software who claims it is as easy as those who haven't :-) Simon Brown, HB9DRV Who said anything about easy? I bang my head against a large lump of concrete while supporting / developing for all of 'Windows / VMS / OS400 / Linux / UNIX (6 flavours)' for my company, I am *not* going to do it for a hobby! (I sometimes doubt my sanity in programming as I do in my spare time.) Easy it is not, soul-destroying - yes! And my customers are professionals, just imagine supports thousands of enthusiasts - show me the way to the padded cell please. IMO Ham software is not financially viable, without sponsorship and use of my company's assets I couldn't do what I do at the moment. - Simon Brown, HB9DRV
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Hello Simon, I want to thank you for the great software and as somebody who has actually attempted a little programming (with mixed results) I know the amount of time and effort you have put into the software. I usually run a beta version of your software and find your beta version runs better than most final versions. It always amazes me that people who don't have a particular talent think those that can do it just have some magic wand that makes it happen with no concept of the time and effort it took to learn that talent let alone the time and effort into the actual project. Thanks again. 73 Brad N1NPK
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Yes, cross-platform development requires an extra effort -- just as putting a man on the moon requires an extra effort compared with climbing a tree. You are poorly informed, Doc. Condemning others based on what you've been told is risky business. Some developers are used to this sort of ignorance and let it roll off; others will put you on their clueless list and treat you accordingly. Until recently, cross-platform development forced a cruel tradeoff: either limit the application to a least common denominator of capabilities provided by the target platforms, or create an architecture that encapsulates platform dependencies in modules with multiple platform-specific implementations. As an example, the former approach produces applications with command-line user interfaces -- easy to develop, test, and maintain, but of interest to few users in this day and age. The latter approach requires a serious investment in configuration management and version control, and produces applications that must be independently documented and tested for each family of target platforms. Adobe, for example, provides entirely separate documentation for the Apple and PC versions of PhotoShop, and tests them independently. There are now development tools that begin to fulfill the write once, run everywhere hype we heard from the Sun marketeers: Eclipse and Mono are two good examples. Yes, I'm aware of Delphi/Kylix, but Borland is roadkill and no competent developer would start a new project with these products. A developer starting a new project would be well-served to consider these new tools, though both involve runtime environments not typically used in amateur radio desktop apps (Eclipse primarily supports Java development, and Mono builds .net applications). Those amateur radio software developers with existing platform- specific applications thus face a different tradeoff: continue efficient development for a single platform, or suspend the release of new functionality for months or years while re-implementing current functionality with Eclipse or Mono. Each will make that decision based on his or her own personal interests, and the interests of their user communities. Cluelessness or sloth won't be a factor. 73, Dave, AA6YQ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, kd4e [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am referring to your assertion that the impediment is programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Please explain the rationale behind this claim. 73, Dave, AA6YQ Oh, that is easy. Three sources: 1. Programmers who have told me directly that they only know one OS, are not interested in learning any others, and refuse any requests to make their apps cross-platform compatible. 2. Programmers who have written cross-platform compatible apps who have told me of fellow programmers who fit category #1. 3. I know from my own very limited experiences in programming in the past -- I have forgotten more than I ever knew from disuse -- that it was an extra effort to provide for use outside of the most familiar context. Even my HTML is very primitive and I make little or no effort to provide for automated flexibility. I use raw hand-coded HTML and expect Web browsers to handle it correctly. I don't have enough knowledge, nor do I have the time to acquire it, to do more than that. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
A couple of random observations - UI is the hardest part - next is device interface (sound cards, RS232) though the effort to abstract that out pales in comparison to the problem of providing a best-of-breed UI for different platforms - Adobe has many hundreds of programmers working on Photoshop - A Java digimode program sure would be nice. I have a few pieces done and would be pleased to work with others, but there are still people (Win/Lin/Mac/BSD who won't use Java) - Separating the UI from the modems and rig control and using a protocol between them would make it easier to write platform-specific best-of-breed UIs. PSKCore.DLL is OK for this approach for Windows, but as it uses the Microsoft component implementation framework, it doesn't help cross-platform, just cross-application. Leigh/WA5ZNU
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
- A Java digimode program sure would be nice. I have a few pieces done and would be pleased to work with others, but there are still people (Win/Lin/Mac/BSD who won't use Java) Leigh/WA5ZNU Are you familiar with tcl/tk? I am not. Many apps being used successfully with Puppy Linux use that. Sure makes things tiny! Puppy also uses a smaller version of Java and about everything runs fine under it. What's the beef with Java? -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Unless you have a monolithic approach in mind, you'll need a fast platform-independent IPC mechanism. 73, Dave, AA6YQ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A couple of random observations - UI is the hardest part - next is device interface (sound cards, RS232) though the effort to abstract that out pales in comparison to the problem of providing a best-of-breed UI for different platforms - Adobe has many hundreds of programmers working on Photoshop - A Java digimode program sure would be nice. I have a few pieces done and would be pleased to work with others, but there are still people (Win/Lin/Mac/BSD who won't use Java) - Separating the UI from the modems and rig control and using a protocol between them would make it easier to write platform-specific best-of-breed UIs. PSKCore.DLL is OK for this approach for Windows, but as it uses the Microsoft component implementation framework, it doesn't help cross-platform, just cross-application. Leigh/WA5ZNU
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
It is difficult to work in a particular field and then come home and do the same thing. As an electronics enthusiastic from a very early age, due to a series of life events, I eventually wound up building a small audiovisual/electronics/computer repair shop for an educational agency. We even did some of the early computer networking with Corvus networks (what fun keeping them going). The problem was that as much as I enjoyed my work, and sometimes I could hardly believe I was getting paid to do something that was challenging and yet enjoyable, it just was not something you wanted to do when you came home at the end of the day. Now that I am retired and have a modest workshop, I find that I only rarely do much with electronic building because it is so difficult with poor eyesight accomodation, such as being able to solder without special binoculars. SMT would be really hard now. I tried learning programming a few decades ago and realized that it just was not something I was smart enough or capable enough to do. Especially not machine language level stuff. But at least I have a crude understanding how it works. I think I speak for many, of not most of us, that we are amazed and in awe really, of those who can do good coding. If I had the ability I would be doing it now, but only a tiny handful of people can do this kind of work well. Ham software has done very well over the years for many categories. Far better than I ever expected was possible. It only takes one gifted person to do some excellent coding and have a great program. I expect even more amateur radio software in the future as more people have access to computers and computing, even in developing countries. Thanks to all who are so successful and are willing to share this with the rest of us. 73, Rick, KV9U Simon Brown wrote: I bang my head against a large lump of concrete while supporting / developing for all of 'Windows / VMS / OS400 / Linux / UNIX (6 flavours)' for my company, I am *not* going to do it for a hobby! (I sometimes doubt my sanity in programming as I do in my spare time.) Easy it is not, soul-destroying - yes! And my customers are professionals, just imagine supports thousands of enthusiasts - show me the way to the padded cell please. IMO Ham software is not financially viable, without sponsorship and use of my company's assets I couldn't do what I do at the moment. - Simon Brown, HB9DRV
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
You are poorly informed, Doc. Condemning others based on what you've been told is risky business. The attitude of condemnation has been somewhat one-sided, and not from my side. I made a simple *observation* based on 30 years of experience with computers without the intention of it turning into a big deal. I am sorry it has been made such. I apologize to anyone who has chosen to be offended. It was not my intention to insult -- I was echoing what programmers have told me. Other programmers may disagree, but then their argument is with their peers, especially with the Linux folks who plead for scraps of information from which they can write the drivers that others say cannot be written -- then they write them. It was a *combination* of observation and testimony. Meanwhile I celebrate and support Mozilla/Firefox/ Thunderbird/Seamonkey, AbiWord, Hamlibs, hundreds if not thousands of Java-based apps, and hundreds if not thousands of other cross-platform apps. We all make choices at various moments of the software conceptualization, development, promotion, and selection cycle. I have joined with those who make cross-platform compatibility an important preference. I am sorry if that makes some people, especially at Microsoft, uncomfortable. 'nuff said, let's move on. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am *not* making it open source, only the decoding DLL's. The UI will never be open source as it uses copyrighted code. Copyright and Open Source are not opposites. Copyright ownership is the precise legal foundation of, for example, the General Public License (GPL). There is a simple, concise discussion of the issues involved at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html. 73 Frank AB2KT
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
The last distribution I bought, SUSE 9.3, was very easy to install and most everything worked. Adding some programs was easy, some were hard. I wanted to use my PC with my IPOD Shuffle and getting ITunes replacement software working was difficult because I had to retrieve and compile several libraries. One the other hand, installing the software to retrieve photos from my HP 215 camera was simple. I got a new flash drive, Sandisk Cruzer, for Christmas and it worked as soon as I plugged it in. I don't think the newer Linux distro's are hard to install and add on software isn't any more difficult than some Windows software. Read about the problems people are having with the new Microsoft Zuni software! Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Danny Douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is one of the reasons I dont get into Linux. I watched others, stressed out at school, trying to get systems operational and smoothed out. We need things to work at college, not there to be fiddled with, because students have only a certain amount of time to use systems, and expect them to work - especially in an educational atmosphere. Yes - Windows has its problems too, but once we find a solution with one, the rest pretty much fall into place too. The other thing has been mentioned - the availability of user programs. If it is written to do, it is written for windows, and once in a while they follow up with a Linux program - but not too often. Students expect us to always have the newest and bestest, since they are going onward to jobs, which will need those skills. Thus, we do have Linux available, but (maybe) not suprisingly, the majority do not take the classes. Thus also went our Macs. Just not enough of them wanted to learn Apple. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB all DX 2-6 years each . QSL LOTW-buro- direct As courtesy I upload to eQSL but if you use that - also pls upload to LOTW or hard card. moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Hi! Jim has hited the proverbial nail: *I had to retrieve and compile several libraries.* for most of us without the necessary knowledge of building and compiling libraries, things can be difficult and can cause loss of motivation. Been there done that! regards On 1/12/07, jgorman01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The last distribution I bought, SUSE 9.3, was very easy to install and most everything worked. Adding some programs was easy, some were hard. I wanted to use my PC with my IPOD Shuffle and getting ITunes replacement software working was difficult because I had to retrieve and compile several libraries. One the other hand, installing the software to retrieve photos from my HP 215 camera was simple. I got a new flash drive, Sandisk Cruzer, for Christmas and it worked as soon as I plugged it in. I don't think the newer Linux distro's are hard to install and add on software isn't any more difficult than some Windows software. Read about the problems people are having with the new Microsoft Zuni software! Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Danny Douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is one of the reasons I dont get into Linux. I watched others, stressed out at school, trying to get systems operational and smoothed out. We need things to work at college, not there to be fiddled with, because students have only a certain amount of time to use systems, and expect them to work - especially in an educational atmosphere. Yes - Windows has its problems too, but once we find a solution with one, the rest pretty much fall into place too. The other thing has been mentioned - the availability of user programs. If it is written to do, it is written for windows, and once in a while they follow up with a Linux program - but not too often. Students expect us to always have the newest and bestest, since they are going onward to jobs, which will need those skills. Thus, we do have Linux available, but (maybe) not suprisingly, the majority do not take the classes. Thus also went our Macs. Just not enough of them wanted to learn Apple. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB all DX 2-6 years each . QSL LOTW-buro- direct As courtesy I upload to eQSL but if you use that - also pls upload to LOTW or hard card. moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- Cumprimentos Salomão Fresco CT2IRJ If it works... dont fix it! Esta mensagem foi escrita com electrões 100% reciclados.
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
This really isn't hard. There were only three commands to use: './configure', 'make', and 'make install' to compile and install the libraries. The hard part was doing the internet searches to find the correct versions. This isn't really any more difficult than searching the internet to find the correct driver to use with an older piece of hardware in Windows. It just seems all the 'official' sites only maintain the latest versions, not the ones from 2 years ago and it doesn't matter whether it is a library or a driver. Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Salomao Fresco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! Jim has hited the proverbial nail: *I had to retrieve and compile several libraries.* for most of us without the necessary knowledge of building and compiling libraries, things can be difficult and can cause loss of motivation. Been there done that! regards
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
And if there is a move toward Linux by a larger group of hams, then I'm sure that the ARRL or someone else would start storing the old libraries that make an applications run. -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of jgorman01 Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 4:59 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software? That's my one pet peeve about Linux. You go looking for a program to do what you want and find out it is two years old and requires libraries that have been updated 4 times since then. Sometimes trying to find the older libraries is a real challenge. I would love it if everyone would store the libraries and programs necessary to install a program right with the program. Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, hams have not said we want this distro to support ham radio so we adopt it. SuSe, Mandrake, Debian and a couple of others cater to amateur radio. My personal leaning is toward Debian and it WAS the first Linux distro. to try and devote itself to being ham radio friendly. The real key to a ham radio applications for Linus is to include all the required libraries (dependencies) with the release of the installation and install the executable and with all dependencies in a specific location. So then you are back to MS...C:\Program Files\PSK31 But my Linux computer is shared by my family and I don't want them to have access to PSK31 so I want to put it in my \USR2\k5yfw\digital\psk3 and You might want to put it in \URS3\Sal\amateur-radio\digital\psk31. What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? 73, Walt/K5YFW Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
Again we must be careful in comparing keyboard to keyboard modes with file transmission modes or E-Mail modes (which is a file transferring mode). We are back to apples and oranges. -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of KV9U Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:48 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software? How do you determine your specific 20 second turnaround time? Couldn't it be any reasonable number from say 1 second up to maybe 20 seconds? Seems as if the SCAMP protocol was around 12 seconds, but I am not certain of that. Then the listening period was for over a half second. That is the main thing, having enough turn around time so the computer can control the PTT in a timely manner. When I observe how fast my computer can control my ICOM rig through the CI-V, I would have to say that it is quite fast but probably not able to key CW. 73, Rick, KV9U cesco12342000 wrote: I often wonder if there is even one ham working on adapting the existing ham DRM type protocol to a pipelined ARQ connected mode that has adaptability to conditions. I think no. The main problem of arq-drm is the very long turnaround time. It's in the 20sec range. This makes normal arq like in pskmail or packet a very lame thing. The only work-around is the thing digital sstv does. keep the number of arq cycles as low as possible. This is done by sending out all data at once (20kb or more), and then getting the not-ack's (there are no ack's) for all the lost segments (packets, 400ms data chunks) at once. This does work very well for large amounts of data, but is not good for small (less 5k) data transfers. Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I think that 10 seconds or longer is a poor use of on-the-air time unless its a very robust FEC mode. Also, as many who have observed, the ionosphere can change much in 10-20 seconds. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of cesco12342000 Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:22 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software? How do you determine your specific 20 second turnaround time? Couldn't it be any reasonable number from say 1 second up to maybe 20 seconds? The time from start of transmission until receiving the first data segment is 10s to 15s. That's the sync-zone, the lead-in. 20 sec is not to be taken pedantically, it may be 15.2135 sec, HI but the magnitute is NOT in the 2 sec range. Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
If you want to learn how to program your talkie, you must you must crack open the operting manual andlearn the basic operating principles of your talkie and then roll up your sleeves and build and program is using what you have learned. Didn't you just say that Dave? Or, you can load software on you computer and program/load the channels that way. 73, Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dave Bernstein Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:32 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software? re What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? Using Linux will not teach you to program your 2M talkie, nor will it teach you how to create applications that run on Linux. If you want to learn to write software, you must crack open a book or three to learn the basic principles, and then roll up your sleeves and build something using what you've learned. MIT has made all of its courseware freely available online via http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html For a solid foundation, start with 6.001: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer- Science/6-001Spring-2005/CourseHome/index.htm One of the authors of the textbook used in this course is WA1NSE: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 73, Dave, AA6YQ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, hams have not said we want this distro to support ham radio so we adopt it. SuSe, Mandrake, Debian and a couple of others cater to amateur radio. My personal leaning is toward Debian and it WAS the first Linux distro. to try and devote itself to being ham radio friendly. The real key to a ham radio applications for Linus is to include all the required libraries (dependencies) with the release of the installation and install the executable and with all dependencies in a specific location. So then you are back to MS...C:\Program Files\PSK31 But my Linux computer is shared by my family and I don't want them to have access to PSK31 so I want to put it in my \USR2\k5yfw\digital\psk3 and You might want to put it in \URS3 \Sal\amateur-radio\digital\psk31. What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? 73, Walt/K5YFW Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
That's fairly simple. It just takes to make a static build. Inconveniences: It generates much larger code. Nevertheless, may be an option. If the codesmith would care for releasing both static and dynamic linked programs, there would be a solution for all. That's what Mozilla does, as sake of example. Firefox just needs to be placed in a working folder, it comes with all the needed libraries self contained. Then you pay the price: download a large program or many smaller libraries. It might be about the same effort, and people wouldn't need to know how to compile. Jose, CO2JA. jgorman01 wrote: That's my one pet peeve about Linux. You go looking for a program to do what you want and find out it is two years old and requires libraries that have been updated 4 times since then. Sometimes trying to find the older libraries is a real challenge. I would love it if everyone would store the libraries and programs necessary to install a program right with the program. Jim WA0LYK
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, KV9U [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My main criticism of Linux is that is has horrific fonts that are not comparable to Windows fonts and the Linux folks try and make believe that this is not a problem I'm not going to dispute your assertion, but I don't understand it. I have used Linux for a long long time and I have never had occasion to say I just can't stand these awful fonts. And on the rare occasons when I use Windows I have never had occasion to say, Wow, what beautiful fonts! This has Linux beat. Maybe I need an example so I can see where the Windows fonts are so much better.
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
See my previous comment on drivers. If MS would allow hardware manfacturers to freely write drivers for their equipment, then Linux programmers wouldn't have to write driver code from scratch and you wouldn't have to compile their libraries. Walt/K5YFW -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Salomao Fresco Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 7:26 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software? Hi! Jim has hited the proverbial nail: I had to retrieve and compile several libraries. for most of us without the necessary knowledge of building and compiling libraries, things can be difficult and can cause loss of motivation. Been there done that! regards On 1/12/07, jgorman01 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The last distribution I bought, SUSE 9.3, was very easy to install and most everything worked. Adding some programs was easy, some were hard. I wanted to use my PC with my IPOD Shuffle and getting ITunes replacement software working was difficult because I had to retrieve and compile several libraries. One the other hand, installing the software to retrieve photos from my HP 215 camera was simple. I got a new flash drive, Sandisk Cruzer, for Christmas and it worked as soon as I plugged it in. I don't think the newer Linux distro's are hard to install and add on software isn't any more difficult than some Windows software. Read about the problems people are having with the new Microsoft Zuni software! Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Danny Douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is one of the reasons I dont get into Linux. I watched others, stressed out at school, trying to get systems operational and smoothed out. We need things to work at college, not there to be fiddled with, because students have only a certain amount of time to use systems, and expect them to work - especially in an educational atmosphere. Yes - Windows has its problems too, but once we find a solution with one, the rest pretty much fall into place too. The other thing has been mentioned - the availability of user programs. If it is written to do, it is written for windows, and once in a while they follow up with a Linux program - but not too often. Students expect us to always have the newest and bestest, since they are going onward to jobs, which will need those skills. Thus, we do have Linux available, but (maybe) not suprisingly, the majority do not take the classes. Thus also went our Macs. Just not enough of them wanted to learn Apple. Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB all DX 2-6 years each . QSL LOTW-buro- direct As courtesy I upload to eQSL but if you use that - also pls upload to LOTW or hard card. moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- Cumprimentos Salomão Fresco CT2IRJ If it works... dont fix it! Esta mensagem foi escrita com electrões 100% reciclados.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I have looked at and sometimes used a number of Linux distributions, some in the past few weeks in terms of Live CD and DVD: Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint, Mandriva, openSUSE, MEPIS, Freespire. None have the quality fonts of MS Windows products. This has bothered me for years (at least 5 years, if not more) so I did considerable research into this and found that they can not legally have the high quality MS fonts along with the Linux OS since they are copyrighted. If you can not tell the difference between these fonts that are ultra tweaked for video display and mediocre fonts that are lower in readibility, then you would not have any problems using the lower quality fonts. For detailed information, see: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Font-HOWTO/index.html 73, Rick, KV9U jhaynesatalumni wrote: --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, KV9U [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My main criticism of Linux is that is has horrific fonts that are not comparable to Windows fonts and the Linux folks try and make believe that this is not a problem I'm not going to dispute your assertion, but I don't understand it. I have used Linux for a long long time and I have never had occasion to say I just can't stand these awful fonts. And on the rare occasons when I use Windows I have never had occasion to say, Wow, what beautiful fonts! This has Linux beat. Maybe I need an example so I can see where the Windows fonts are so much better.
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, kd4e [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. And you say this based on your experience developing and deploying which cross-platform applications? 73, Dave, AA6YQ
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. And you say this based on your experience developing and deploying which cross-platform applications? 73, Dave, AA6YQ I am not sure I understand the purpose of this challenge to facts that are common knowledge. One *has* to be a software developer to observe anti-competitive or incomplete development practices? The models for cross-platform apps are all over the place, they are not hard to find. This is not a secret. I have been on the procurement side in business, government, and non-profits. I am also very aware of the profit-motive for excluding open-source versions of drivers and apps. Even as a private user I have wasted hundreds of hours trying to get hardware products to work only to be told by the manufacturer that they *chose* to refuse Linux access to minimal info. necessary to write their own drivers. This anti-competitive (on the software side) conduct is well-documented. It is a really dumb practice because the growing numbers of Linux users are communicating via the Internet and are refusing to buy from uncooperative hardware manufacturers -- this too is no secret. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I am referring to your assertion that the impediment is programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. Please explain the rationale behind this claim. 73, Dave, AA6YQ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, kd4e [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only thing that stands between Linux and the common user today is friends-of-MS who refuse to make drivers (or driver info) available for Linux and programmers who are inadequately competent to make their apps cross-platform compatible. And you say this based on your experience developing and deploying which cross-platform applications? 73, Dave, AA6YQ I am not sure I understand the purpose of this challenge to facts that are common knowledge. One *has* to be a software developer to observe anti-competitive or incomplete development practices? The models for cross-platform apps are all over the place, they are not hard to find. This is not a secret. I have been on the procurement side in business, government, and non-profits. I am also very aware of the profit-motive for excluding open-source versions of drivers and apps. Even as a private user I have wasted hundreds of hours trying to get hardware products to work only to be told by the manufacturer that they *chose* to refuse Linux access to minimal info. necessary to write their own drivers. This anti-competitive (on the software side) conduct is well-documented. It is a really dumb practice because the growing numbers of Linux users are communicating via the Internet and are refusing to buy from uncooperative hardware manufacturers -- this too is no secret. -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
RE: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I am also very aware of the profit-motive for excluding open-source versions of drivers and apps. Even as a private user I have wasted hundreds of hours trying to get hardware products to work only to be told by the manufacturer that they *chose* to refuse Linux access to minimal info. necessary to write their own drivers. This anti-competitive (on the software side) conduct is well-documented. It's not anti-competitive, and it's not sponsored or driven by Microsoft. It's just good business sense when viewed form the perspective of the hardware vendors. Hardware vendors are *notoriously* guarded about the details of how their hardware works. This includes the register-level details necessary to write a driver. And this is true for all types of devices that range from support chipsets (such as Southbus/ICH type devices) to commodity peripheral devices (like, say, SCSI adapters). They view their hardware interface as confidential and proprietary -- Sometimes because they think the interface design provides a competitive advantage, sometimes because as soon as an interface design is public they're stuck supporting every detail of it, and sometimes because they don't want their competitors to create register-compatible knock-offs of their devices. The VENDORS are the ones who write the drivers. They choose which O/Ses to write drivers for based on a cost/benefit analysis, taking into account one-time cost for writing the code and the on-going costs of supporting it. Vendors aren't any more forthcoming with Microsoft when it comes to details of how their hardware works. In fact, most typically they're down-right paranoid about it. So, if there aren't a plethora of drivers some flavor of Linux, it's just that the hardware vendor doesn't think writing and supporting a driver for that platform is worth the cost. There's really nothing more to it than that. Microsoft has been involved in a lot of conspiracies and anti-competitive practices, but this isn't one of them. de Peter K1PGV
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
- Original Message - From: Dave Bernstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] And you say this based on your experience developing and deploying which cross-platform applications? Well said. I have never met anyone who has developed multi-platform software who claims it is as easy as those who haven't :-) Some amateurs actually get software written and others who just complain. Simon Brown, HB9DRV
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
I often wonder if there is even one ham working on adapting the existing ham DRM type protocol to a pipelined ARQ connected mode that has adaptability to conditions. I think no. The main problem of arq-drm is the very long turnaround time. It's in the 20sec range. This makes normal arq like in pskmail or packet a very lame thing. The only work-around is the thing digital sstv does. keep the number of arq cycles as low as possible. This is done by sending out all data at once (20kb or more), and then getting the not-ack's (there are no ack's) for all the lost segments (packets, 400ms data chunks) at once. This does work very well for large amounts of data, but is not good for small (less 5k) data transfers.
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
That's my one pet peeve about Linux. You go looking for a program to do what you want and find out it is two years old and requires libraries that have been updated 4 times since then. Sometimes trying to find the older libraries is a real challenge. I would love it if everyone would store the libraries and programs necessary to install a program right with the program. Jim WA0LYK --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, hams have not said we want this distro to support ham radio so we adopt it. SuSe, Mandrake, Debian and a couple of others cater to amateur radio. My personal leaning is toward Debian and it WAS the first Linux distro. to try and devote itself to being ham radio friendly. The real key to a ham radio applications for Linus is to include all the required libraries (dependencies) with the release of the installation and install the executable and with all dependencies in a specific location. So then you are back to MS...C:\Program Files\PSK31 But my Linux computer is shared by my family and I don't want them to have access to PSK31 so I want to put it in my \USR2\k5yfw\digital\psk3 and You might want to put it in \URS3\Sal\amateur-radio\digital\psk31. What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? 73, Walt/K5YFW
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
How do you determine your specific 20 second turnaround time? Couldn't it be any reasonable number from say 1 second up to maybe 20 seconds? Seems as if the SCAMP protocol was around 12 seconds, but I am not certain of that. Then the listening period was for over a half second. That is the main thing, having enough turn around time so the computer can control the PTT in a timely manner. When I observe how fast my computer can control my ICOM rig through the CI-V, I would have to say that it is quite fast but probably not able to key CW. 73, Rick, KV9U cesco12342000 wrote: I often wonder if there is even one ham working on adapting the existing ham DRM type protocol to a pipelined ARQ connected mode that has adaptability to conditions. I think no. The main problem of arq-drm is the very long turnaround time. It's in the 20sec range. This makes normal arq like in pskmail or packet a very lame thing. The only work-around is the thing digital sstv does. keep the number of arq cycles as low as possible. This is done by sending out all data at once (20kb or more), and then getting the not-ack's (there are no ack's) for all the lost segments (packets, 400ms data chunks) at once. This does work very well for large amounts of data, but is not good for small (less 5k) data transfers. Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
How do you determine your specific 20 second turnaround time? Couldn't it be any reasonable number from say 1 second up to maybe 20 seconds? The time from start of transmission until receiving the first data segment is 10s to 15s. That's the sync-zone, the lead-in. 20 sec is not to be taken pedantically, it may be 15.2135 sec, HI but the magnitute is NOT in the 2 sec range.
[digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
re What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? Using Linux will not teach you to program your 2M talkie, nor will it teach you how to create applications that run on Linux. If you want to learn to write software, you must crack open a book or three to learn the basic principles, and then roll up your sleeves and build something using what you've learned. MIT has made all of its courseware freely available online via http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html For a solid foundation, start with 6.001: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer- Science/6-001Spring-2005/CourseHome/index.htm One of the authors of the textbook used in this course is WA1NSE: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 73, Dave, AA6YQ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, hams have not said we want this distro to support ham radio so we adopt it. SuSe, Mandrake, Debian and a couple of others cater to amateur radio. My personal leaning is toward Debian and it WAS the first Linux distro. to try and devote itself to being ham radio friendly. The real key to a ham radio applications for Linus is to include all the required libraries (dependencies) with the release of the installation and install the executable and with all dependencies in a specific location. So then you are back to MS...C:\Program Files\PSK31 But my Linux computer is shared by my family and I don't want them to have access to PSK31 so I want to put it in my \USR2\k5yfw\digital\psk3 and You might want to put it in \URS3 \Sal\amateur-radio\digital\psk31. What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? 73, Walt/K5YFW
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
That's my one pet peeve about Linux. You go looking for a program to do what you want and find out it is two years old and requires libraries that have been updated 4 times since then. Sometimes trying to find the older libraries is a real challenge. I would love it if everyone would store the libraries and programs necessary to install a program right with the program. Jim WA0LYK That was my pet peeve as well! I went through over a dozen distros before I got to Puppy Linux. The folks responsible for it are really good about making what they call dotpups which are a complete application ready to install. You just click on the downloaded dotpup and it automatically sets everything up. Occasionally your app will require something key like Java or tcl/tk and that will have to be loaded first -- but even then it is almost always available as a dotpup either on the official site or on a server one of the affiliated folks hosts. They did go through a change of Linux kernels a while back and that introduced some transition of lots of apps but other than that things have gone pretty smoothly -- the app is now much more user friendly than the big ones. I have tried Debian and the many variants and spent hundreds of hours chasing dependencies, it takes a better code-hound than I to get it running and to add in apps. RedHat and SuSE drove me nuts with code-bloat and dependency nightmares. Stormix and a couple others went out of business. Puppy is designed as a not-for-profit enterprise so there is not bloated staff and corporate infrastructure to support. Users not stockholders drive the distro. IMHO, YMMV ... -- Thanks! 73, doc, KD4E ~~ Projects: http://ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com Personal: http://bibleseven.com Note: Both down temporarily due to server change. ~~
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
WOW An MIT education for free (well money wise at least). Interesting site, and a place I should visit often- but maybe a bit beyond my comprehension these days. I missed the Navy Reserve Officers Training 4 year scholorship by one lousy point (should have taken the test in Oklahoma, instead of Texas -- the cutoff there was 3 points lower), and that is where I had intended to use it. Oh Well ! Danny Douglas N7DC ex WN5QMX ET2US WA5UKR ET3USA SV0WPP VS6DD N7DC/YV5 G5CTB all DX 2-6 years each . QSL LOTW-buro- direct As courtesy I upload to eQSL but if you use that - also pls upload to LOTW or hard card. moderator [EMAIL PROTECTED] moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DXandTalk - Original Message - From: Dave Bernstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 7:32 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software? re What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? Using Linux will not teach you to program your 2M talkie, nor will it teach you how to create applications that run on Linux. If you want to learn to write software, you must crack open a book or three to learn the basic principles, and then roll up your sleeves and build something using what you've learned. MIT has made all of its courseware freely available online via http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html For a solid foundation, start with 6.001: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer- Science/6-001Spring-2005/CourseHome/index.htm One of the authors of the textbook used in this course is WA1NSE: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 73, Dave, AA6YQ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, DuBose Walt Civ AETC CONS/LGCA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, hams have not said we want this distro to support ham radio so we adopt it. SuSe, Mandrake, Debian and a couple of others cater to amateur radio. My personal leaning is toward Debian and it WAS the first Linux distro. to try and devote itself to being ham radio friendly. The real key to a ham radio applications for Linus is to include all the required libraries (dependencies) with the release of the installation and install the executable and with all dependencies in a specific location. So then you are back to MS...C:\Program Files\PSK31 But my Linux computer is shared by my family and I don't want them to have access to PSK31 so I want to put it in my \USR2\k5yfw\digital\psk3 and You might want to put it in \URS3 \Sal\amateur-radio\digital\psk31. What Linux does for one think is make you think about what you are doing and keep you from becoming an appliance operator? How many hams really know how to program their 2M talkie? 73, Walt/K5YFW Announce your digital presence via our DX Cluster telnet://cluster.dynalias.org Our other groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dxlist/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themixwgroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contesting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wnyar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Omnibus97 Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.9/622 - Release Date: 1/10/2007 2:52 PM
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Movement toward open digital software?
And you will find my name in the acknowledgements in the preface as I helped with the course development in its first two years. Gerry was my advisor as well for a while. I heard from him last month, when he finished his new K2. Last year MIT started offering a mixed course for non-majors, of 3 units of Scheme (a mini version of this course) and the rest with high-level programming in Python. They teach Signals and Systems using both Scheme and Python now (not just Scheme), and I recently suggested a lab involving the popular SoftRock kits as a practicum. (In my day we had to build the FM demodulator...) Leigh/WA5ZNU One of the authors of the textbook used in this course is WA1NSE: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 73, Dave, AA6YQ
