Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Adding audio beyond USB audio for me mainly brings up the question of drivers and codecs. Since you'd not be able to afford commercial codecs and patent licenses for a DIY activity you'd need to be able to go with something that fits into a standard open-source architecture, with other words, you need ALSA drivers. Would a custom audio solution use a chipset that comes with ALSA drivers? On the server side the main point is that you probably need to branch to be able to supply your own firmware which in turn means you need to de-brand LMS but I might be wrong here. The one thing where I don't see an issue is the USB display. That's IMHO unrelated to the server and purely a client-side activity since you can drive the thing through the server-side SqueezePlay menus. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] replacing squeezebox with android
Hi all having read through a number of threads about DIY squeezeboxes - has anyone considered using a cheap Android device, as a direct squeezebox replacement? For instance - in the UK you can get the Alcatel OT 903 for £30 from carphonewarehouse. This phone has a 3.5 mm audio output, and wifi inbuilt - plus of course it has the screen to allow for player control. As far as I see it, wiring this up to a decent amplifier using the 3.5mm port, then using both squeezecommander and squeezeplayer from the play store - could well replace a squeezebox. am I overlooking something - or is this the perfect solution for a simple low cost replacement? I have implemented the setup using an old handset here - but unfortunately it doesn't have a 3.5mm port - so it's only the quality of the audio which I have not been able to properly test. sportgaming's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58871 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
Yes, it can play music. It's one step above using a simple mp3 player to replace a SqueezeBox. Or buy a $39 Roku player. Or just use your Xbox/PS3/networked AVR. Numerous ways to get sound to an amp, but that doesn't make it a SqueezeBox. :) 3.5mm audio out SQ any good? Sync'd playback to multiple rooms? If your use case is simplistic and limited then there are numerous alternatives. There is a reason SqueezeBox Sonos were developed, for those desiring beyond simplistic limited. ;) toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Seagate Constellation CS 3TB
Hi, In article slimchances.5pl...@no-mx.forums.slimdevices.com, SlimChancesslimchances.5pl...@no-mx.forums.slimdevices.com wrote: The WD Black has a 5 year warranty. The MTBF is no longer published for these drives but I believe it would be a higher rate than the Red drives Just to clear, do you mean a higher rate of failure, or a higher time between failures? Andy ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
toby10 wrote: Yes, it can play music. It's one step above using a simple mp3 player to replace a SqueezeBox. Or buy a $39 Roku player. Or just use your Xbox/PS3/networked AVR. Numerous ways to get sound to an amp, but that doesn't make it a SqueezeBox. :) 3.5mm audio out SQ any good? Sync'd playback to multiple rooms? If your use case is simplistic and limited then there are numerous alternatives. There is a reason SqueezeBox Sonos were developed, for those desiring beyond simplistic limited. ;) the 3.5mm sound quality is the only thing I have not been able to confirm multi room sync works perfectly when synced with other software devices (squeezelite) - I am yet to find anything that it can't handle - admitedly I haven't tried everything but syncing and gapless both work without any issue at all - player can also be controlled seamlessly via squeezecommander on the device, or from other networked phones sportgaming's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58871 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
3.5mm out is usually headphone, which means it is softer (and lower quality?) than a line-out. I use my phone in my car (not as squeezebox) and use the headphone as line-in to my car amp and it's pretty soft. (plus you have added electronic noise in the car if it's charging while playing music). lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
sportgaming wrote: multi room sync works perfectly when synced with other software devices (squeezelite) . Yes, I was refering to Sync with other hardware players. ;) Four audio zones in my home, no computer needed. toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
toby10 wrote: Yes, I was refering to Sync with other hardware players. ;) Four audio zones in my home, no computer needed. but the other DIY projects which have been listed here will have exactly the same issue - I am potentially seeing this as an alternative to those sportgaming's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58871 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
can one connect an android phone to an external USB dac? asplundj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=53571 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
asplundj wrote: can one connect an android phone to an external USB dac? 'Some phones/tablets to some DACs' (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=93402st=76) Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
Android connected to a USB dac. That sounds clever. Then you get higher quality (or even digital out) quality to amp/DAC of choice. The option I was planning to upgrade to for the car is to put a bluetooth receiver in the car (which has lineout) and then I don't have to wire up the phone. This should be possible in the home also. Though not sure if the bluetooth sends data loslessly but the quality difference in a car shouldn't be noticable. lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
lrossouw wrote: Android connected to a USB dac. That sounds clever. Then you get higher quality (or even digital out) quality to amp/DAC of choice. The option I was planning to upgrade to for the car is to put a bluetooth receiver in the car (which has lineout) and then I don't have to wire up the phone. This should be possible in the home also. Though not sure if the bluetooth sends data loslessly but the quality difference in a car shouldn't be noticable. oops I did forget to mention that I had already tried using the Bluetooth receiver solution - although this of course adds another £20-30 to the price I'm not really an audiophile - but the music sounds perfectly good tome over the Bluetooth link sportgaming's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=58871 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JohnSwenson wrote: Hi guys, I want in on this! I have been thinking a lot about it over the last few months. I am well accomplished at the hardware design part of this. I'm not sure most of you are aware of this but I do part time consulting for high end hiFi companies wanting to get into digitaal audio, I have lots of hardware experience doing just what this project is about and making it into products for low volume production. There seems to be an assumption that you need very high volumes to get low prices, this is not really the case. You need high volumes to get REALLY low price, but medium range prices is can be had for fairly low volumes. For example something along the complexity of the Touch main board, can be manufactured for around $125 in 25 quantity, thats board, parts and assembly. That does NOT include the case, full assembly etc, just the board. At 50 quantity you can get down to $100 a board. I have done designs using off the shelf boards and ones that I have done the whole thing from scratch, my current thinking is that for more than a couple systems it actually winds up being cheaper to do the whole thing from scratch, that way you get EXACTLY what you want. When using an off the shelf board you have to try and shoehorn your design into sombody elses vision, which rarely matches yours exactly. For example, some people around here have mentioned things like IR remotes, if your chosen existing board doesn't have the capability, you either live without it or you have to add a board that does it, and figure out how to connect that into some port on the existing board. When you do the whole thing yourself it is MUCH easier to add things like that directly to the main board. When doing it yourself you have a wide range of options available for including in the device, that would be very difficult to add to an existing board. For example as has been mentioned having FPGA based filters is something that is easy to add to our own board, and adds very little cost. I can easily put in a VERY high quality S/PDIF interface that will be better than just about anything out there, or even a USB output optimized for audio use. I have been doing systems like these for many years now and the biggest time sinc has always been the UI. Since the SB line already has good external UI options, I think it makes more sense to design a product to be a black box (but with a web server for configuration etc so you get away from the Duet problems). Having a display and interface along the lines of the Touch seems to me to double or tripple the complexity of the project. I'm a little torn on one aspect of this, my passion is for very high quality DACs, having done systems similar to this several times I CAN say that I can do a better job for less money building very good DACs into the project than you can get by buying external DACs. It doesn't HAVE to be an either or. I can do a two board system, one board has the main guts and digital audio interfaces (S/PDIF USB) and another board that plugs in which has the DACs (it does NOT connect to the S/PDIF or USB). So if you want to spend the extra $400 you can get audio quality that will out perform external DACs costing many thousands. It is just so much easier to do a really good job of a DAC if you can build it into the architecture of the main system. Things I am NOT good at: industrial design, please don't ask me to design a really good looking case for this! John S. Hello John, This is VERY exciting news. I am not 100% sure where to go with this and the next steps. My overall feeling is that there are many users that want a device but still questions if there is a market for it. I feel that if we assemble a small group, put together the design and implement a kickstarter type project, we will get the interest from this community. I would assume we could easily get over 50 - 100 orders on the first batch if the price was right. This leads to a much larger question of legalities with Logitech, creation of an LLC or other company structure, how we further market, etc. Erland has already created the developers group. I am wondering if we should take this entire discussion to that group and the parties that have real interest can join. Thoughts? Thanks! --Dustin dustinsterk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19649 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: You've lost me... Who's talking about masses or selling anything in stores? Sorry, I think my mind went a bit ahead of the thread :-) When reading John's post again it's pretty clear that he is talking about a low volume solution which doesn't have to be sold through local stores. JJZolx wrote: I haven't addressed mysb.com functionality, but how can a Squeezebox replacement NOT rely on LMS or another server that implements SlimProto? If it doesn't, then it's not a Squeezebox. John's post talks of circuit boards an IR input, so I presume that he's talking about building something that resembles and operates like a Squeezebox. We're no longer talking about taking a Raspberry Pi or other off-the-shelf computer and making it work like a Squeezebox to feed a USB DAC. For the most part, that's been done. My post above simply tries to outline what I feel would be the minimum required I/O of an SB replacement. Apart from the USB, it's not much different than the old Receiver. In my mind: Squeezebox replancement = A music streaming device that provides similar features as the Squeezebox (preferably but not necessarily compatible with existing Squeezeboxes) However, I think a DIY solution could make sense to some existing Squeezebox enthusiasts who have a desperate need to enhance their existing system, relying on LMS makes sense if you want to do something simple that works as a temporary solution until the market catches up with the needs we have. In my mind it doesn't really make sense to even package software and hardware together for this kind of system, just let each user buy the parts, load the software on it and assemble the device themselves. It would avoid the codec licensing issue pippin mentions, since you are just selling a circuit board and not a music streaming device. Still, if you just want a temporary solution, why not just get a used Squeezebox from eBay ? Surely there will be people selling their old Squeezeboxes on eBay during the years to come if people are still willing to buy it for the same price as a new one. I guess it could make sense if you like to experiment with DIY solutions, just because it's fun, but if not I can't really see the need unless you also handle the long term issues. If you want to do something more long term, you really need to handle LMS and mysqueezebox.com maintenance and then it will become a much bigger thing and in this case it might even be better to start over and build something with similar functionality instead of relying on LMS which have 10 years of architectural inheritance. Reusing someone elses code in a new system isn't always the easiest way to do things, in my experience you really earn most time by reusing functional specifications and possibly architecture/design and protocols if it's good, reusing code only really makes sense if you don't plan to change it or you already understand the code in detail. Of course, for LMS there isn't really any functional specifications to reuse and the protocols are barely documented, so the question is if it's really worth the trouble to try to branch and re-brand it. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
pippin wrote: Adding audio beyond USB audio for me mainly brings up the question of drivers and codecs. Don't you have codec/patent licensing issues also with USB audio ? Isn't the issue related to MP3 codecs and similar ? Won't those be needed also if you use USB audio ? However, as I said in my previous post a few minutes ago, I think it's best to just do a real DIY solution where each user buys the parts and assembles it themselves and load the necessary software on it, then you could probably avoid the codec/patent issues as you are just selling a circuit board without any software, or am I missing something ? You would of course still need drivers, but hopefully those are already available if you select hardware components which already have Linux drivers. pippin wrote: On the server side the main point is that you probably need to branch to be able to supply your own firmware which in turn means you need to de-brand LMS but I might be wrong here. For a DIY solution you would probably not load firmware through LMS. The real Logitech Squeezebox devices in the system would get firmware from LMS, the DIY devices would get their firmware through a SDHC card, USB stick or some other way. We aren't talking mass market convenience, we are talking DIY solution for enthusiasts as I've understood it. One reason to re-brand LMS is if you want to ensure long term survival and not risk that Logitech will stop maintaining it in a year or two. Another reason could be that you want to add new features to the core parts of LMS since this won't happen as long as Logitech maintains it. Most things can probably be added as plugins and won't need a community maintained LMS, but if you want to really revolutionize it, you would probably need to branch it since new features would be needed in the core parts. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
The advantage of using USB audio is that it usually comes with ALSA driver support so you can use standard open source codec distributions. Still doesn't help you if you want to sell the thing as a working unit but for a DIY platform that just needs a software distribution to be added to it it gets you around having to develop drivers, which isn't the most convenient thing to do. I have no idea whether the same result can also be achieved by using a standard chipset, hence my question. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
dustinsterk wrote: This leads to a much larger question of legalities with Logitech, creation of an LLC or other company structure, how we further market, etc. Erland has already created the developers group. I am wondering if we should take this entire discussion to that group and the parties that have real interest can join. Thoughts? I agree, discussing legal strategies and potential company structure is better handled in private. If you want to use the private developers group I created, that's fine with me, it's linked to in the forth post in this thread. Just be aware that I'm going to keep it small and only accept members who I trust and who have already shown their abilities that makes me think they can help with development or hardware design, so if you want to check for interest regarding different features or who want to donate money to the project, that kind of discussion is probably better handled in the public forum or asking them to mail you directly. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Well, this solution worked for me. USB DAC and control via iPad and I'm rocking. http://vortexbox.org/content/149-Logitech-SqueezeBox-replacement-for-under-30 dyohn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5211 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
erland wrote: Sorry, I think my mind went a bit ahead of the thread :-) In my mind: Squeezebox replancement = A music streaming device that provides similar features as the Squeezebox (preferably but not necessarily compatible with existing Squeezeboxes) New players like this are being released by consumer electronics and audio companies almost weekly, typically relying on DLNA network servers for local content. But with few of features that the _software_ of the Squeezebox system affords. Things like synched playback, plugins and broad audio format compatibility. I'm not sure I see the point in producing another one. Surely by now there's a player available for everyone if those limitations are of no importance. If you want many of the same features as Squeezebox, you're going to have to make the system reliant upon some kind of local server. Do you want to write something like Squeezebox Server over again from scratch? SBS isn't perfect, but it represents many man-years of work. (And then I'd have to ask: How would this system complement my existing Squeezebox infrastructure and investment? If it's completely independent of it, then I fail to see much appeal.) My understanding is that as far as copyright issues are concerned, the only thing prevented would be the re-distribution of Squeezebox firmware. Which seems like a minor concern when you consider that the firmware for older Squeezeboxes is no longer being updated and new firmware for SqueezePlay devices is downloaded on the fly. As far as codecs are concerned: is Logitech actually licensing any of the distributed software? They don't even distribute LAME with the server for MP3 encoding. JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Like I said on the previous page, it already exists. http://vortexbox.org/content/149-Logitech-SqueezeBox-replacement-for-under-30 dyohn's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5211 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: I'd have to ask: How would this system complement my existing Squeezebox infrastructure and investment? If it's completely independent of it, then I fail to see much appeal.) Correct, unless you can load custom firmware to your existing Squeezeboxes and make them work with the new system. Based on my own experience, I know this is reasonable on the Touch/Radio, but it's probably going to be a bit more complex on the older devices. Also, obviously it only makes sense to do a completely new system if the new system can be sold to the masses, if you plan to only sell a few hundred devices you should just base the solution on LMS/mysqueezebox.com. JJZolx wrote: My understanding is that as far as copyright issues are concerned, the only thing prevented would be the re-distribution of Squeezebox firmware. Which seems like a minor concern when you consider that the firmware for older Squeezeboxes is no longer being updated and new firmware for SqueezePlay devices is downloaded on the fly. As far as codecs are concerned: is Logitech actually licensing any of the distributed software? They don't even distribute LAME with the server for MP3 encoding. From my memory, the copyright/re-distribution issues are at least: - Player firmware - All artwork (buttons, icons, logos and similar things) - Windows installer (I think it's copyrighted to Logitech, but the reason for that is probably mainly because they don't have permission to let anyone else redistribute it) - exe binaries for Windows (I think you need the OEM version of ActiveState Perl, not sure what it costs) - I think someone also mentioned that some codecs were a problem, don't remember which ones - I'm not sure about the license status of the Windows control panel applet. You can choose to ignore the legal issues and my guess is that Logitech probably won't care unless you do something that hurts their business. If you are lucky the companies owning the rights for codecs, Windows installer and exe binaries for perl won't notice you are breaking their license. If they do care, you could end up in legal trouble, but I guess someone doing it would have to make a judgement if it's worth the risk or not. As long as you only distribute it to geeks you are probably fine, if you distribute it to all Squeezebox users and advertise it, the risk of getting caught becomes a bit bigger. Making a completely legal fork is going to be a bit of work, especially if you like to satisfy Windows users. Andy mentioned in some thread that building all the CPAN perl modules on Windows can be a bit of a challenge, so except for the above I suspect this will introduce another complexity if you like to keep CPAN modules updated and satisfy Windows users. The svn/git version works because Logitech have already pre-built the CPAN binaries and commited them to svn/git. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: My understanding is that as far as copyright issues are concerned, the only thing prevented would be the re-distribution of Squeezebox firmware. Which seems like a minor concern when you consider that the firmware for older Squeezeboxes is no longer being updated and new firmware for SqueezePlay devices is downloaded on the fly. As far as codecs are concerned: is Logitech actually licensing any of the distributed software? They don't even distribute LAME with the server for MP3 encoding. They do license a lot for the players. There are two aspects here: Software licenses (probably for mp3, WMA, and AAC) and patent fees (at least mp3 and WMA, not sure about AAC). Both come with a fixed minimum cost that makes them prohibitive at low volumes. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
erland wrote: From my memory, the copyright/re-distribution issues are at least: - Player firmware - All artwork (buttons, icons, logos and similar things) - Windows installer (I think it's copyrighted to Logitech, but the reason for that is probably mainly because they don't have permission to let anyone else redistribute it) - exe binaries for Windows (I think you need the OEM version of ActiveState Perl, not sure what it costs) - I think someone also mentioned that some codecs were a problem, don't remember which ones - I'm not sure about the license status of the Windows control panel applet. Ok. Yeah, there are some obstacles there. - Player firmware. As stated previously, not really a concern. - Artwork. If SqueezePlay isn't used, then this would only be in the web UI. Drop in replacements wouldn't be hard to create for a decent graphic artist. - Windows Installer. Another could be created. Probably one that is much faster. - EXE for Windows. Yes, if we wanted to recreate this, the ActiveState SDK would need to be purchased and licensing (if needed) would have to be explored. Or, require users to install the free ActiveState Perl interpreter and run the Perl code. For a project like this, that's not unreasonable. - Windows Control Panel. Not necessary. IIRC, the only thing it does that can't easily be done otherwise, is install/uninstall SBS as a Windows service. That functionality could be incorporated into the Windows installer, and you could just have users re-run the installer. If there are codecs that require licensing, whether or not a player is based on SBS will make no difference. How does a player like Squeezelite deal with this? JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but I see little reason to build a displayless SB replacement without an internal DAC and analog out. Otherwise, the only thing it such a device might have over the current DIY solutions built on PCs with USB output is a high quality S/PDIF out. I would see the necessary I/O as: - analog L/R - optical S/PDIF - coax S/PDIF - USB - ethernet - wifi +1 Everybody who reads these forums is an enthusiast, but few are geeks. Most of us could cope with buying a box and following some step-by-step instructions to install a pre-packaged linux distro and software player (similar to the Vortexbox project) but that would be about the limit. Remember some of us have wives and an ugly Pogoplug device with a totally uncoordinated USB DAC hanging off the back won't cut the decor mustard. Ideally the thing should be at least passably attractive and small enough to be nearly invisible anyway. We were prepared to pay £150/$200+ for our Squeezeboxes so we can afford this for a replacement, so a $30 player is unnecessarily cheap! Most would be prepared to pay an extra £100 in order not to have to spend 30 hours making several attempts at hacking linux to get the thing to work! Most stereo hi-fi amps do not have integrated DACs so the device will definitely need a DAC, but it only needs to be as good as the Receiver or Touch. If you want better you can buy a hi-fi DAC (as opposed to a computer audio DAC). I really like the look of the CuBox: http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox In design terms it is so nearly there. Add a halfway decent audio chip and it would be a done deal for me if you could download pre-packaged software to go on it. TheLastMan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16021 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
MP3 is $15.000 (as of your link) minimum per year. I believe all text in SqueezePlay/LMS is also copyrighted, changing this would probably be the biggest activity. pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Anyone reading this thread should try Squeezelite on a CuBox or a Rasberry Pi, Pogoplug My original motivation for squeezelite is for a headless linux playback engine which emulates as many features as possible of the Squeezebox hardware so that it can integrate with existing LMS, but run on a small linux device and drive a usb dac. I think its close to release status and has a few users at present. I.e. exactly what we could be talking about here... I think we can easliy do something which is a usable player for people by constraining the scope: 1) target a small number of linux devices and create some standard install scripts/images for them 2) start with a headless system (no ui, but target a device with hdmi interface as we can expand into hdmi based user interface relatively easliy); users can use LMS web interface, iPeng, SqueezePad etc to controll it 3) start with usb audio as this means we can use off the shelf hardware and let the user select the level of audio engineering they want from $5 upwards... 4) assume the user has some involvement in the install process and we are not charging for the solution, so this allows the user to download standard linux codecs without concerns over patent licensing... Later we can add a user interface and potentially integrate server functions. For me a Cubox is making an excellent but expensive player. A Raspberry Pi is cheaper, but has problems with USB dac compatiblity (hopefully to be resolved by the Pi developers). Both provide usb out, ethernet and wifi via usb and hdmi for a future user interface Triode's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: If there are codecs that require licensing, whether or not a player is based on SBS will make no difference. How does a player like Squeezelite deal with this? Not sure how it works now, but initially I believe it required you to install lame on the server. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97766-Announce-Local-Player-plugin-and-Squeezelite-for-Linux-Windows-OSXp=731954viewfull=1#post731954 Not sure how/if it would cause more issues in a scenario where someone bundled squeezelite pre-installed on a hardware box. Licensing will be an issue on consumer packaged hardware unless: - You sell to the masses so the initial/annual license costs are small compared to your revenue or - Someone else has already payed the license for you (if I've understood correctly this can be the case for some audio circuits, at least in theory) The issues regarding licenses only cause problem if you only plan to sell a few devices. The per device cost is often not the issue, it's the initial/annual minimal costs that cause problems. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
pippin wrote: They do license a lot for the players. There are two aspects here: Software licenses (probably for mp3, WMA, and AAC) and patent fees (at least mp3 and WMA, not sure about AAC). Both come with a fixed minimum cost that makes them prohibitive at low volumes. For those interested: MP3: http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/hardware.html AAC: http://www.vialicensing.com/licensing/aac-fees.aspx WMA: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/licensing/final.aspx Or in summary (if my interpretation is correct), the minimum fees are: MP3: $5 000/year as minimum AAC: $1 000 initial setup (http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?topic=10328.0) WMA: Not sure what the $400 000 number means, feels like way too much as an annual fee. So basically, the alternatives are one of: - Make a DIY device and let the user assemble it and avoid the license issues - Base the device on hardware where the hardware manufacturer already pays the necessary codec/patent licenses. - Hope that nobody notice that you are violating licenses (might be reasonable if you only plan to sell 500 devices and doesn't advertise it much) - Sell to the masses - Focus on OGG/FLAC and avoid codecs/patents which requires a license. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: - EXE for Windows. Yes, if we wanted to recreate this, the ActiveState SDK would need to be purchased and licensing (if needed) would have to be explored. Or, require users to install the free ActiveState Perl interpreter and run the Perl code. For a project like this, that's not unreasonable. The problem is still the CPAN modules, Logitech compiles these for newer ActiveState versions regularly so you never see the issue when you run svn/git version because they have commited binaries in svn/git. I don't think compiling them would require a OEM license but as I've understood from Andy it requires a bit of work to setup the build environment to compile them. ActiveState have a tendency to remove older perl versions and only offer the latest or two latest ones for free, so for it to work for new users you need to ensure you have always compiled the CPAN modules towards the latest version available from ActiveStatue. So I think Windows support will be a bit of work independent if you redistribute compiled exe's or just distribute perl code with compiled CPAN modules. But maybe we can create a Linux based server box also to get around that issue or just recommend users to get a VortexBox Appliance. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
erland wrote: Not sure how it works now, but initially I believe it required you to install lame on the server. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97766-Announce-Local-Player-plugin-and-Squeezelite-for-Linux-Windows-OSXp=731954viewfull=1#post731954 Not sure how/if it would cause more issues in a scenario where someone bundled squeezelite pre-installed on a hardware box. Licensing will be an issue on consumer packaged hardware unless: - You sell to the masses so the initial/annual license costs are small compared to your revenue or - Someone else has already payed the license for you (if I've understood correctly this can be the case for some audio circuits, at least in theory) The issues regarding licenses only cause problem if you only plan to sell a few devices. The per device cost is often not the issue, it's the initial/annual minimal costs that cause problems. We could have two versions of the product: 1) A 'DIY' device which would be cheaper and require the user to load the software. 2) A 'Ready to Go' version which includes the licensing costs and is a little more expensive. dustinsterk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19649 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
TheLastMan wrote: +1 Everybody who reads these forums is an enthusiast, but few are geeks. Most of us could cope with buying a box and following some step-by-step instructions to install a pre-packaged linux distro and software player (similar to the Vortexbox project) but that would be about the limit. Remember some of us have wives and an ugly Pogoplug device with a totally uncoordinated USB DAC hanging off the back won't cut the decor mustard. Ideally the thing should be at least passably attractive and small enough to be nearly invisible anyway. We were prepared to pay £150/$200+ for our Squeezeboxes so we can afford this for a replacement, so a $30 player is unnecessarily cheap! Most would be prepared to pay an extra £100 in order not to have to spend 30 hours making several attempts at hacking linux to get the thing to work! Most stereo hi-fi amps do not have integrated DACs so the device will definitely need a DAC, but it only needs to be as good as the Receiver or Touch. If you want better you can buy a hi-fi DAC (as opposed to a computer audio DAC). I really like the look of the CuBox: http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox In design terms it is so nearly there. Add a halfway decent audio chip and it would be a done deal for me if you could download pre-packaged software to go on it. I do agree that the new version must be visually attractive, with or without a screen (to be decided later), or very small to hide the clutter (unlike the pogoplug versions, etc). I also like the approach of having HDMI out and allowing this new device to display now playing information on your choice ouput devices (TV, Monitor, etc). The CuBox does look to be close, just without the DAC. I would look to John for suggestions and input to keep costs in check, etc. dustinsterk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19649 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Triode wrote: Anyone reading this thread should try Squeezelite on a CuBox or a Rasberry Pi, Pogoplug My original motivation for squeezelite is for a headless linux playback engine which emulates as many features as possible of the Squeezebox hardware so that it can integrate with existing LMS, but run on a small linux device and drive a usb dac. I think its close to release status and has a few users at present. I.e. exactly what we could be talking about here... I think we can easliy do something which is a usable player for people by constraining the scope: 1) target a small number of linux devices and create some standard install scripts/images for them 2) start with a headless system (no ui, but target a device with hdmi interface as we can expand into hdmi based user interface relatively easliy); users can use LMS web interface, iPeng, SqueezePad etc to controll it 3) start with usb audio as this means we can use off the shelf hardware and let the user select the level of audio engineering they want from $5 upwards... 4) assume the user has some involvement in the install process and we are not charging for the solution, so this allows the user to download standard linux codecs without concerns over patent licensing... Later we can add a user interface and potentially integrate server functions. For me a Cubox is making an excellent but expensive player. A Raspberry Pi is cheaper, but has problems with USB dac compatiblity (hopefully to be resolved by the Pi developers). Both provide usb out, ethernet and wifi via usb and hdmi for a future user interface Question to John, and this maybe too early to answer: A device similar to the Cubox (design/features), adding the DAC, what can be expected from time/money invested? dustinsterk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19649 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
dustinsterk wrote: We could have two versions of the product: 1) A 'DIY' device which would be cheaper and require the user to load the software. 2) A 'Ready to Go' version which includes the licensing costs and is a little more expensive. I suspect: - The people who is able to use the DIY device are those who don't have an issue with a higher price (geeks don't care if it costs a bit as long as it's cool :-) ) - The people who isn't able to use the DIY device is likely those who want a lower price So I would just focus on either the DIY device and ignore people who can't install it or focus only on the consumer device and hope to get more customers and make the licensing costs less of a problem. If I've understood it correctly, you would have to pay the minimum $15 000 for the MP3 license before you sell the first device, so you need to ensure you have funding for this if you want to do the Ready to Go device, if you only sell 100 of them the first year the MP3 license adds $150/device, so you need to ensure you have packaged it in a nice case so it can sell more than hundred devices per year. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
dustinsterk wrote: Question to John, and this maybe too early to answer: A device similar to the Cubox (design/features), adding the DAC, what can be expected from time/money invested? He mentioned $100 for the mainboard in small quantities. Although that sounds quite reasonable, that's before adding a CPU, memory, wifi card, antennas, audio components, connectors, power supply, case and assembly. Can something like this be made to work with 'stock' LMS, or does it require involvement from someone maintaining the server to add support for a new type of Squeezebox device? JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
TheLastMan wrote: We were prepared to pay £150/$200+ for our Squeezeboxes so we can afford this for a replacement, so a $30 player is unnecessarily cheap! Most would be prepared to pay an extra £100 in order not to have to spend 30 hours making several attempts at hacking linux to get the thing to work! +1 - I will pay (in advance if necessary) the former price of an SB3 to get the same service in a new device. Count me in for 1 (and up to 3 if we're talking about a Boom replacement.) The thing has to be well thought, promise a long lifecycle, and shall not come in a sandwich box. It has to work fine with my current SBs. - I could pay around $70 (that's with all accessories) for a software player properly packaged on an off-the-shelf platform, controlled via iPeng. But probably only once my SBs start dying A reasonably priced dedicated device, part of an SB-compatible system, has a lot of appeal to me. (I looked at some Olive One videos. I will wait for the marketing haze to lift; But for the moment, surely it does not appear as SB compatible and that's not good for me --DLNA will not enter my home. And second, I hope for them they will be able to pump up performance of the seemingly obligatory color display. Competing with smartphones is difficult, as we've seen.) epoch1970's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16711 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
maggior wrote: The revue can't run squeezeplay because squeezeplay is built for the ARM processessor and the Revue runs an Intel Atom. Orange Squeeze looks awesome on it though as a gigantic now playing display. Well, the Atom should be able to run squeezelite just fine... Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
If it runs Orange Squueze won't it run Squeeze Play? lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
It's too bad there aren't more settop boxes like the Revue that run Android. The advantage there is you have optical output for audio rather than relying on lossy bluetooth or using a headphone output as a line-out. The revue can't run squeezeplay because squeezeplay is built for the ARM processessor and the Revue runs an Intel Atom. Orange Squeeze looks awesome on it though as a gigantic now playing display. maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Love the discussion here! I'm in on a device. Will probably mess round with R Pi and squeezelite until then. I think starting with LMS based device is the way to go. I think displays are over rated. Rather HDMI out for that. I rarely look at my touches these days. Always on my tab or phone first. I think John Swenson's technical involvement would be great. lrossouw's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3416 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
JJZolx wrote: He mentioned $100 for the mainboard in small quantities. Although that sounds quite reasonable, that's before adding a CPU, memory, wifi card, antennas, audio components, connectors, power supply, case and assembly. Can something like this be made to work with 'stock' LMS, or does it require involvement from someone maintaining the server to add support for a new type of Squeezebox device? It will work with stock LMS. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
erland wrote: It will work with stock LMS. As previously discussed, I see a perfect marriage of this new device with Vortexbox. It is a perfect LMS platform which I am a big fan of and use everyday! dustinsterk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19649 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
pippin wrote: They do license a lot for the players. There are two aspects here: Software licenses (probably for mp3, WMA, and AAC) and patent fees (at least mp3 and WMA, not sure about AAC). Both come with a fixed minimum cost that makes them prohibitive at low volumes. Note also that, as per Michael, Logitech pays some money to TuneIn for each player sold. It's not clear how much or exactly what this enables that is not available from TuneIn for free. Mark Miksis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=529 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Community Funded Squeezebox Replacement - Would you be interested?
Mark Miksis wrote: Note also that, as per Michael, Logitech pays some money to TuneIn for each player sold. It's not clear how much or exactly what this enables that is not available from TuneIn for free. I'm not sure it's available for free at all for streaming devices, as I've understood you need a partner agreement to get access to the API these days. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97881 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
The problem is that squeezeplay has low level code (probably written in 'C') to decode FLAC and mp3 natively. That code will be processor specific. Something like OrangeSqueeze is formatting messages to send to the squeezebox server, parsing responses, and presenting it all in a nice UI. Yes, this a gross simplification, but OrangeSqueeze can do all of this using native interfaces in Andriod. The app authors can chime in and give you more detail, but that's my understanding of the situation. Back when the Revue had come out, there was a lot of discussion about getting squeezeplay to run on the Revue turning it into a squeezebox - but it wasn't a simple task (could have been an impossible one actually) and given the quick demise of the product, it wasn't worth the effort. maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] replacing squeezebox with android
Julf wrote: Well, the Atom should be able to run squeezelite just fine... I don't think people will want to invest time working on a dead product. I own 2 of them only because they were cheap during the fire sale that transpired after Logitec killed it off. They work well for using Netflix and the wireless keyboard is quite handy. So, unless squeezelite can be made to run on andriod running on top of an atom, that would be a non starter. I'm not aware of an ability to root the Revue to load your own OS (Linux perhaps). Again, I can't imagine people investing time to make something like this work. maggior's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9080 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97918 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Logitech divesting from some product lines
I wonder what this will mean for the Squeezebox/UE line http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57565558-92/logitech-to-unload-harmony-line-after-disappointing-quarter/ tamanaco's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4620 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97925 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] BBC Radio titles
Any updates on this please? Nick_G's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=38427 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97543 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Logitech divesting from some product lines
My wild guess would be that the UE line will be dead within a year... servies's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9496 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=97925 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
