Re: [Elecraft] AGC and IF Output

[Edward R Cole]

Doug,

Wes answer your question, simply.  A little more info on this: I 
believe AGC only operates in the 2nd IF in the digital domain of the 
K3 SDR.  RF preamp and 1st conversion stage is constant gain which is 
all that you see at the IF output.  I use the IF to drive two LP-Pan 
as fixed freq SDR's to provide I-Q signals for MAP65 on 2m-eme.  I 
take both main IF and subRx IF because I simultaneously receive two 
polarity RF.


So the good news is your SDR-IQ will see a fixed signal in direct 
relation to the signal level input to the K3.  Very handy if looking 
at sky noise vs ground noise on mw.  SDR-IQ signal level display will 
be in direct relation to signal from antenna (plus gain of 
transverter and K3 front end).


I use my SDR-IQ in parallel with my K3 on the transverter IF which 
allows me to monitor ground noise floor on 1296+.  Definitely see 
ground noise as antenna comes down to horizon or sees a tree or 
bldg.  I measure my dish Tsun/cs this way using Spectravue in the 
continuous mode (amplitude vs time).


73, Ed - KL7UW
6m, 2m, 23cm eme ...9cm coming next

Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 04:43:00 + (UTC)
From: Doug Millar <drzarko...@yahoo.com>
To: Elecraft Reflector <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: [Elecraft] AGC and IF Output
Message-ID: <470439615.902322.1502340180...@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi All, Simple question. I am using the K3 as part of a microwave EME 
station. I am using an SDR IQ on the IF output. My question is 
whether the AGC effects the IF output level.?? Doug K6JEY



73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and IF Output

[Wes Stewart]

No.

On 8/9/2017 9:43 PM, Doug Millar via Elecraft wrote:

Hi All, Simple question. I am using the K3 as part of a microwave EME station. 
I am using an SDR IQ on the IF output. My question is whether the AGC effects 
the IF output level.   Doug K6JEY
  
drzarko...@yahoo.com

562 810 3989  cell/text

  
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[Elecraft] AGC and IF Output

[Doug Millar via Elecraft]

Hi All, Simple question. I am using the K3 as part of a microwave EME station. 
I am using an SDR IQ on the IF output. My question is whether the AGC effects 
the IF output level.   Doug K6JEY
 
drzarko...@yahoo.com
562 810 3989  cell/text

 
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Walter Underwood]

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Looking at the fundamentals (not often learned by some RF engineers, and 
> almost never by digital engineers)...

Somewhat related story, I studied DSP at Rice University. When interviewing for 
a job (which I got), my future boss asked why on Earth I had taken an analog 
filters course. I told him that I knew how digital filters worked, and I wanted 
to know the analog side. I guess that was good enough for him, even though he 
had worked to make that course non-required when he was a professor.

Also, my digital circuits prof was a working engineer at TI. His mantra was 
“digital circuits are made of analog components”.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

> Wider BW in QRM will too.

Only to the extent that the QRM causes AGC pumping or overdrives the
signal chain (receiver IF, detector, sound card) causing IMD.  RTTY
decoding software like Chen's cocoaModem, David's 2-Tone and even
Mori-san's MMTTY have extremely tight MARK/SPACE filtering capable
of rejecting signals even 100 Hz away and nothing (not even tight IF
filters) will reject an overlapping signal.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/8/2017 7:35 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Having designed digital decoders BR [Before Retirement] on various
channels including HF, we found exactly what Ed said to be true, both in
corrected and uncorrected channels.  The less AGC compression on HF
channels, the better the decode.  However, adjusting AGC parameters on
many military HF radios was a lot harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for
what it's worth, any BW less than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is
going to degrade the decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW
in QRM will too.  It's an engineering trade-off.

73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/8/2017 2:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the
author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15
years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.
If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes
in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better
most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over
about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They
then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on
their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about
half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or
slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts
of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal
into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally
tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The
filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation
than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for
human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Jim Brown]

Looking at the fundamentals (not often learned by some RF engineers, and 
almost never by digital engineers) any variation in the amplitude 
response of a system is accompanied by variation in the phase response. 
Ears don't like it, and decoders don't like it. Those engineers urging 
wide bandwidth for RTTY know those fundamentals.


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/8/2017 4:35 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
The less AGC compression on HF channels, the better the decode.  
However, adjusting AGC parameters on many military HF radios was a lot 
harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for what it's worth, any BW less 
than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is going to degrade the 
decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW in QRM will too.  
It's an engineering trade-off. 



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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Fred Jensen]

Having designed digital decoders BR [Before Retirement] on various 
channels including HF, we found exactly what Ed said to be true, both in 
corrected and uncorrected channels.  The less AGC compression on HF 
channels, the better the decode.  However, adjusting AGC parameters on 
many military HF radios was a lot harder than on the K3. [:-)  And, for 
what it's worth, any BW less than about 300 Hz, and better 350 Hz, is 
going to degrade the decoder's capability at 45.5 baud ITA-2.  Wider BW 
in QRM will too.  It's an engineering trade-off.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/8/2017 2:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__



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[Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[j...@kk9a.com]

This is a very interesting post Ed! I will definitely will try these AGC
settings in the next RTTY contest.

John KK9A - W4AAA


Ed Muns w0yk said:
Tue Mar 7 21:48:52 EST 2017

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
of CocoaModem.

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow.

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time.

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__

W7AY, 1015:

If you are willing to manually ride the RF/IF gain controls, "AGC off" is
best.

As David G3YYD has pointed out, you need the "gains" of the Mark and Space
tones to be perfectly equal.  Under poor SNR but good propagation
conditions, 0.5 dB of imbalance will cause noticeable harm in the error
rates.

Basically, you want the gains between the mark (M) and space (S) bits to be
constant.  The strength of the composite signal (M+S) need not be constant.

Together with proper filters (narrow enough to avoid QRM while adding no
intersymbol interference), slicing (deciding whether mark or space has
arrived) is an equally important aspect of FSK demodulator design.  You can
easily make the case that the slicer becomes more important when conditions
are poorer.

The slicer decides whether the mark signal or the space signal is greater at
each bit period.

Good demodulators take care of slicer imbalances by the use of "automatic
threshold correction" (ATC) circuits or software code.  You can also use FM
techniques to get around mark/space imbalance, but that creates more
problems that it solves -- that is why good demodulators nowadays use two
individual "AM" demodulators.

It is always best to present to the demodulator with a signal that has as
little possible tone imbalance so that the ATC has the least amount of work
to do.

This way, you minimize the problems that the demodulator has to overcome.

Thus, you would rather have AGC that does not keep the amplitude perfectly
constant, as long as the two tones have the same amplitudes.   Remember, the
key is to have no imbalance.  The two tones must fluctuate by the same
amount.

Good A/D converters (sound cards) provide dozens of dB worth of dynamic
range to handle fading.  Just keep remembering that RTTY demodulation
depends on SNR and not on signal strength.  Receiver requirements are very
different from voice or CW modes.

The ATC circuit has to work really, really hard (and fails often) when the
AGC is fast enough to be affected by the tone amplitudes fluctuating
independently.  The AGC time constant must therefore be much longer than a
bit period.  Even an AGC time constant that is around 176 ms (character
period of RTTY) already pose problems.

Thus "AGC off" is the best, and if you are not willing to constantly ride
the 

Re: [Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Richard Ferch]

Aha! There's an explanation from the RTTY experts for the effects of AGC on
RTTY decoders.

Interesting that the recipes for best RTTY demodulation and for best
separation of multiple CW signals (the "mush" problem) appear to involve
similar AGC slope and threshold settings, although the reasons appear to be
different.

73,
Rich VE3KI


W0YK wrote:

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the
author of CocoaModem.

...
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[Elecraft] AGC and RTTY Decoding (was [K3] AGC White Paper)

[Ed Muns]

Below is a thread from 7 March 2016 about AGC usage with RTTY decoders.
David Wicks, G3YYD, is the author of 2Tone and Kok Chen, W7AY, is the author
of CocoaModem. 

Anecdotally, my experience after 250,000+ RTTY QSOs over the past 15 years
concurs that minimizing AGC action supports best decoder performance.  If my
ears, or widely varying signal levels, can't tolerate AGC Off, then I use
AGC Slow, SLP=0 and THR=14 or higher.

Note also the comments about receiver IF bandwidth of 500 Hz except in
extreme cases.  Even in big RTTY pileups such as I encounter sometimes in DX
locations, Again, I've anecdotally found that 500 Hz decodes better most of
the time.  I seldom go lower.  This also implies turning off the K3
Dual-Tone filter.

Both of these points (no, or minimal, AGC and moderate IF BW) are not
intuitive, especially for an experienced CW operator.

Ed W0YK
__

G3YYD, 0210:

Actually with RTTY the AGC setting should be slow. 

The reason for this is the best decoders decode each tone separately and
make use of the signal amplitude and  measured noise over time. 

They compare the individual tone amplitudes with their amplitude over about
one character time before and after the character being decoded. They then
combine the tones together before the final decision is made based on their
individual signal to noise ratio. Sudden changes to receiver gain will
provide less than optimum performance as it will alter the amplitude
relationship and noise over much less than 3 character times (about half a
second).

For those older decoders that use a FM demodulation system fast or slow AGC
makes no difference so set the AGC time constant as you would for SSB rag
chewing - slow.

As for bandwidth do not set it below 350Hz as Chen W7AY indicated earlier
this can cause distortion across the bandwidth by delaying some parts of a
RTTY signal more than others. This blurs one bit of the RTTY signal into the
adjacent bits. This is the signal causing QRM to itself. I personally tend
to use 500Hz on my K3 and only reduce to 350Hz in extremis. The filters in a
modern decoder are very narrow. 2Tone for instance uses a filter for each
tone that are just 45.45Hz wide and at 90Hz wide have more attenuation than
the receiver's dynamic range. Reducing RX bandwidth below 350Hz is for human
hearing limitations not that of the decoder.

73 David G3YYD
__

W7AY, 1015:

If you are willing to manually ride the RF/IF gain controls, "AGC off" is
best.

As David G3YYD has pointed out, you need the "gains" of the Mark and Space
tones to be perfectly equal.  Under poor SNR but good propagation
conditions, 0.5 dB of imbalance will cause noticeable harm in the error
rates.

Basically, you want the gains between the mark (M) and space (S) bits to be
constant.  The strength of the composite signal (M+S) need not be constant.

Together with proper filters (narrow enough to avoid QRM while adding no
intersymbol interference), slicing (deciding whether mark or space has
arrived) is an equally important aspect of FSK demodulator design.  You can
easily make the case that the slicer becomes more important when conditions
are poorer.

The slicer decides whether the mark signal or the space signal is greater at
each bit period.

Good demodulators take care of slicer imbalances by the use of "automatic
threshold correction" (ATC) circuits or software code.  You can also use FM
techniques to get around mark/space imbalance, but that creates more
problems that it solves -- that is why good demodulators nowadays use two
individual "AM" demodulators.

It is always best to present to the demodulator with a signal that has as
little possible tone imbalance so that the ATC has the least amount of work
to do.  

This way, you minimize the problems that the demodulator has to overcome.  

Thus, you would rather have AGC that does not keep the amplitude perfectly
constant, as long as the two tones have the same amplitudes.   Remember, the
key is to have no imbalance.  The two tones must fluctuate by the same
amount. 

Good A/D converters (sound cards) provide dozens of dB worth of dynamic
range to handle fading.  Just keep remembering that RTTY demodulation
depends on SNR and not on signal strength.  Receiver requirements are very
different from voice or CW modes.

The ATC circuit has to work really, really hard (and fails often) when the
AGC is fast enough to be affected by the tone amplitudes fluctuating
independently.  The AGC time constant must therefore be much longer than a
bit period.  Even an AGC time constant that is around 176 ms (character
period of RTTY) already pose problems.  

Thus "AGC off" is the best, and if you are not willing to constantly ride
the RF gain control, the slowest AGC time constant possible is the next best
choice.

Use a A/D converter with good dynamic range, and let the demodulator
designers handle 

Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION

[Dave Cole]

Ed,
Thank you for a very clear explanation here...  Well written out.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 11/16/2016 05:04 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

Just a comment/correction about JT65:

I don't know who is claiming 20-dB improvement over CW, but the creator
of JT65, Joe Taylor - K1JT has stated that "about" ten dB improvement
can be realized.  I can hear -18 dB JT65 tones from eme signals.  This
fits well with the theory of receiving weak-signals, be they CW or digital.

The typical (or maybe better than typical) CW op can hear copy signals
down to 17 dB below what is SNR = 0 dB in a 2.5 KHz bandwidth.  How that
is determined is by reducing bw to 50-Hz.  The improvement in SNR from
2.5 KHz to 50-Hz is given by 10Log(2500/50) = 10 Log(50) = 17 dB.

JT-65 signals can be decoded down at -28 dB referenced to 2.5 KHz, thus
about 10-dB improvement over hearing CW.

I find I need to reduce radio bw to 100-Hz when trying to copy very-weak
CW; maybe my ears/brain adds another 3-dB filtering to get to 50-Hz
(maybe not as I seem to need SNR> 6 dB to copy CW.  But I can make out
tones at SNR=0 (or below).

Narrowing radio bw to 50-Hz does not help me as the filter ringing
confuses what my brain hears.  Having severe hearing disability does not
help, either.

Nearly all the improvement in decoding signals comes from narrowing bw.
JT-65 digital bw is about 5-Hz using a sequence of tones that vary in
audio frequency so the FSK signal takes about 180 KHz bw in Tx.  Note
10Log(2500/5) = 27 dB.

One more note:  JT-65 is run at SSB bw (typ. 2.5 KHz) since all the
weak-signal work is done in sw.  Some eme JT-65 stations run 4-KHz bw to
watch several frequencies.  I run MAP65 at 60-KHz bw to simultaneously
watch the whole eme sub-band 144.095-144.155.  My system does not use
the K3 2nd IF or roofing filters. I've written before about that so
visit my website if you want to know more about that.

73, Ed - KL7UW
---
From: brian <als...@comcast.net>
To: "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> 'Elecraft Reflector'"
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION
Message-ID: <582c591c.10...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Hi Matt,

I used to think I could copy CW signals below the noise.
However when I put SPECTROGRAM in line and actually measured the S/N
ratio the results were disappointing.

According the SPECTROGRAM, those "in the noise" signals actually had an
+8-10 dB S/N ratio.

Try it and see for yourself.

Likewise those WSPR and JT65 guys have been mislead by the -dB (e.g.
-20) edited signal strengths.  They need to know that those are
calculated with a 2.4 - 2.8 KHz assumed noise power.  In reality, many
of the negative "dB" value signals can be copied by ear.

73 de Brian/K3KO


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag Business e-mail:
dubus...@gmail.com
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION

[Edward R Cole]

Just a comment/correction about JT65:

I don't know who is claiming 20-dB improvement over CW, but the 
creator of JT65, Joe Taylor - K1JT has stated that "about" ten dB 
improvement can be realized.  I can hear -18 dB JT65 tones from eme 
signals.  This fits well with the theory of receiving weak-signals, 
be they CW or digital.


The typical (or maybe better than typical) CW op can hear copy 
signals down to 17 dB below what is SNR = 0 dB in a 2.5 KHz 
bandwidth.  How that is determined is by reducing bw to 50-Hz.  The 
improvement in SNR from 2.5 KHz to 50-Hz is given by 10Log(2500/50) = 
10 Log(50) = 17 dB.


JT-65 signals can be decoded down at -28 dB referenced to 2.5 KHz, 
thus about 10-dB improvement over hearing CW.


I find I need to reduce radio bw to 100-Hz when trying to copy 
very-weak CW; maybe my ears/brain adds another 3-dB filtering to get 
to 50-Hz (maybe not as I seem to need SNR> 6 dB to copy CW.  But I 
can make out tones at SNR=0 (or below).


Narrowing radio bw to 50-Hz does not help me as the filter ringing 
confuses what my brain hears.  Having severe hearing disability does 
not help, either.


Nearly all the improvement in decoding signals comes from narrowing 
bw.  JT-65 digital bw is about 5-Hz using a sequence of tones that 
vary in audio frequency so the FSK signal takes about 180 KHz bw in 
Tx.  Note 10Log(2500/5) = 27 dB.


One more note:  JT-65 is run at SSB bw (typ. 2.5 KHz) since all the 
weak-signal work is done in sw.  Some eme JT-65 stations run 4-KHz bw 
to watch several frequencies.  I run MAP65 at 60-KHz bw to 
simultaneously watch the whole eme sub-band 144.095-144.155.  My 
system does not use the K3 2nd IF or roofing filters. I've written 
before about that so visit my website if you want to know more about that.


73, Ed - KL7UW
---
From: brian <als...@comcast.net>
To: "Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> 'Elecraft Reflector'"
<elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION
Message-ID: <582c591c.10...@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

Hi Matt,

I used to think I could copy CW signals below the noise.
However when I put SPECTROGRAM in line and actually measured the S/N
ratio the results were disappointing.

According the SPECTROGRAM, those "in the noise" signals actually had an
+8-10 dB S/N ratio.

Try it and see for yourself.

Likewise those WSPR and JT65 guys have been mislead by the -dB (e.g.
-20) edited signal strengths.  They need to know that those are
calculated with a 2.4 - 2.8 KHz assumed noise power.  In reality, many
of the negative "dB" value signals can be copied by ear.

73 de Brian/K3KO


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag Business e-mail:
dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION

[brian]

Hi Matt,

I used to think I could copy CW signals below the noise.
However when I put SPECTROGRAM in line and actually measured the S/N 
ratio the results were disappointing.


According the SPECTROGRAM, those "in the noise" signals actually had an 
+8-10 dB S/N ratio.


Try it and see for yourself.

Likewise those WSPR and JT65 guys have been mislead by the -dB (e.g. 
-20) edited signal strengths.  They need to know that those are 
calculated with a 2.4 - 2.8 KHz assumed noise power.  In reality, many 
of the negative "dB" value signals can be copied by ear.


73 de Brian/K3KO

On 11/16/2016 2:37 AM, Matt Murphy wrote:

Louis,

FWIW I like my K3 noisy, almost so it sounds like there is no AGC action,
just enough to protect my ears from an unexpected loud signal. I've found
that this makes it easiest to copy extremely weak CW signals that are below
the noise, and prevents static pops from covering up the signal.  The two
settings to adjust are AGC threshold and AGC slope.  Start with threshold
as it will make the biggest difference in how strong vs weak signals
sound.  If you need finer-grained control, the AGC threshold can be useful.
The other settings should be fine at their default values. The AGC decay
"soft" setting is preferred by some in pileups, so you might try both
settings.

I found this writeup which looks pretty good:

http://www.ad4c.us/Elecraft%20K3/AGC%20Tutorial.pdf


73,
Matt NQ6N

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:


Louis,

I am not one to give you specific settings for you to just plug in and
use.  If I did so, I would just tell you to use the default settings.
Every location and operating style is different, and you can enhance the
AGC performance to meet your particular situation.

Please read the "Noisy K3" information on my webiste www.w3fpr/com to give
you guidelines on how to adjust your particular AGC.
Pay particular attention to the method for evaluating the results of your
adjustments - it is critical that you listen to short gaps in the CW or SSB
voice to determine the best settings for you.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/15/2016 5:46 PM, louis a. ives wrote:


I have been following the thread with regards to the setting of the AGC
of the K-3 with great interest.  I am new to the use of the K-3 even though
I have owned the radio for some time.  I had  a medical issue that delayed
my use of the unit.My K-3 has been updated with all of the current K-3s
upgrades and I use a KPA500.  The thread has given several settings for AGC
SLP and AGC THR but I noticed that the setting for the other AGC settings
are not mentioned.  Should  I assume that the other default settings are to
be used?   I tried the suggested settings and found that they did help with
the reception of weak signals.  I work a lot of DX SSB and working the
pileups can be a problem.  I also would like to thank KE7X for the great
book on the K-3, it has been a great help and has answered a lot of
questions.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION

[Matt Murphy]

Louis,

FWIW I like my K3 noisy, almost so it sounds like there is no AGC action,
just enough to protect my ears from an unexpected loud signal. I've found
that this makes it easiest to copy extremely weak CW signals that are below
the noise, and prevents static pops from covering up the signal.  The two
settings to adjust are AGC threshold and AGC slope.  Start with threshold
as it will make the biggest difference in how strong vs weak signals
sound.  If you need finer-grained control, the AGC threshold can be useful.
The other settings should be fine at their default values. The AGC decay
"soft" setting is preferred by some in pileups, so you might try both
settings.

I found this writeup which looks pretty good:

http://www.ad4c.us/Elecraft%20K3/AGC%20Tutorial.pdf


73,
Matt NQ6N

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Louis,
>
> I am not one to give you specific settings for you to just plug in and
> use.  If I did so, I would just tell you to use the default settings.
> Every location and operating style is different, and you can enhance the
> AGC performance to meet your particular situation.
>
> Please read the "Noisy K3" information on my webiste www.w3fpr/com to give
> you guidelines on how to adjust your particular AGC.
> Pay particular attention to the method for evaluating the results of your
> adjustments - it is critical that you listen to short gaps in the CW or SSB
> voice to determine the best settings for you.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 11/15/2016 5:46 PM, louis a. ives wrote:
>
>> I have been following the thread with regards to the setting of the AGC
>> of the K-3 with great interest.  I am new to the use of the K-3 even though
>> I have owned the radio for some time.  I had  a medical issue that delayed
>> my use of the unit.My K-3 has been updated with all of the current K-3s
>> upgrades and I use a KPA500.  The thread has given several settings for AGC
>> SLP and AGC THR but I noticed that the setting for the other AGC settings
>> are not mentioned.  Should  I assume that the other default settings are to
>> be used?   I tried the suggested settings and found that they did help with
>> the reception of weak signals.  I work a lot of DX SSB and working the
>> pileups can be a problem.  I also would like to thank KE7X for the great
>> book on the K-3, it has been a great help and has answered a lot of
>> questions.
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>> Thanks in advance
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION

[Don Wilhelm]

Louis,

I am not one to give you specific settings for you to just plug in and 
use.  If I did so, I would just tell you to use the default settings.
Every location and operating style is different, and you can enhance the 
AGC performance to meet your particular situation.


Please read the "Noisy K3" information on my webiste www.w3fpr/com to 
give you guidelines on how to adjust your particular AGC.
Pay particular attention to the method for evaluating the results of 
your adjustments - it is critical that you listen to short gaps in the 
CW or SSB voice to determine the best settings for you.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/15/2016 5:46 PM, louis a. ives wrote:

I have been following the thread with regards to the setting of the AGC of the 
K-3 with great interest.  I am new to the use of the K-3 even though I have 
owned the radio for some time.  I had  a medical issue that delayed my use of 
the unit.My K-3 has been updated with all of the current K-3s upgrades and 
I use a KPA500.  The thread has given several settings for AGC SLP and AGC THR 
but I noticed that the setting for the other AGC settings are not mentioned.  
Should  I assume that the other default settings are to be used?   I tried the 
suggested settings and found that they did help with the reception of weak 
signals.  I work a lot of DX SSB and working the pileups can be a problem.  I 
also would like to thank KE7X for the great book on the K-3, it has been a 
great help and has answered a lot of questions.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance

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[Elecraft] AGC INFORMATION

[louis a. ives]

I have been following the thread with regards to the setting of the AGC of the 
K-3 with great interest.  I am new to the use of the K-3 even though I have 
owned the radio for some time.  I had  a medical issue that delayed my use of 
the unit.My K-3 has been updated with all of the current K-3s upgrades and 
I use a KPA500.  The thread has given several settings for AGC SLP and AGC THR 
but I noticed that the setting for the other AGC settings are not mentioned.  
Should  I assume that the other default settings are to be used?   I tried the 
suggested settings and found that they did help with the reception of weak 
signals.  I work a lot of DX SSB and working the pileups can be a problem.  I 
also would like to thank KE7X for the great book on the K-3, it has been a 
great help and has answered a lot of questions.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
73 
Louis, KJ4ZSI


PSent from my iPad
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Settings

[Don Wilhelm]

Donald,

The AGC settings, particularly the slope and the threshold are best set 
to your individual preferences.  There is no setting that is perfect for 
everyone - that is why Elecraft allows the parameters to be varied 
instead of providing one setting for everyone.


For guidance on how to evaluate the results of any changes, take a look 
at my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on "Noisy K3".
The key is that you cannot make a good evaluation by listening only to a 
signal, you must listen for the effects in gaps between the words of a 
signal.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/23/2016 11:01 AM, Donald Schliesser wrote:
After installing the new Synth board in my K3 all is well except I 
notice that on strong CW signals the AGC is not keeping that signal 
from blowing my ears off when listening to a DX pileup.


I am mostly a DX CW operator, and my present AGC settings are:

AGC HLD = 0.30
AGC PLS = NOR
AGC SLP = 002
AGC THR = 008
AGC-F = 120
AGC-S = 020
AGC DCY = SOFT

Can't remember where I got those settings but was from some post or 
blurb somewhere.


Thanks for any suggestions, Donald K6RV


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Settings

[Barry N1EU]

Agree with Don't comments.  If signals are blowing your ears off, you need
one of the following:

lower AF Gain
lower AGC Threshold
higher AGC Slope  (higher SLP value is actually flatter curve which
technically is a lower slope)

I encourage everyone to learn and understand how to set up their
manual/auto gain settings, and not just willy nilly copy other people's
settings.

73, Barry N1EU

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Donald,
>
> The AGC settings, particularly the slope and the threshold are best set to
> your individual preferences.  There is no setting that is perfect for
> everyone - that is why Elecraft allows the parameters to be varied instead
> of providing one setting for everyone.
>
> For guidance on how to evaluate the results of any changes, take a look at
> my webpage www.w3fpr.com article on "Noisy K3".
> The key is that you cannot make a good evaluation by listening only to a
> signal, you must listen for the effects in gaps between the words of a
> signal.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 1/23/2016 11:01 AM, Donald Schliesser wrote:
>
>> After installing the new Synth board in my K3 all is well except I notice
>> that on strong CW signals the AGC is not keeping that signal from blowing
>> my ears off when listening to a DX pileup.
>>
>> I am mostly a DX CW operator, and my present AGC settings are:
>>
>> AGC HLD = 0.30
>> AGC PLS = NOR
>> AGC SLP = 002
>> AGC THR = 008
>> AGC-F = 120
>> AGC-S = 020
>> AGC DCY = SOFT
>>
>> Can't remember where I got those settings but was from some post or blurb
>> somewhere.
>>
>> Thanks for any suggestions, Donald K6RV
>>
>>
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[Elecraft] AGC Settings

[Donald Schliesser]

After installing the new Synth board in my K3 all is well except I 
notice that on strong CW signals the AGC is not keeping that signal from 
blowing my ears off when listening to a DX pileup.


I am mostly a DX CW operator, and my present AGC settings are:

AGC HLD = 0.30
AGC PLS = NOR
AGC SLP = 002
AGC THR = 008
AGC-F = 120
AGC-S = 020
AGC DCY = SOFT

Can't remember where I got those settings but was from some post or 
blurb somewhere.


Thanks for any suggestions, Donald K6RV


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[Elecraft] AGC mode display in FM changes from agc-s to agc-f

[Larry Schall]

Having an intermittent problem where the AGC-S changes to AGC-F in FM mode
only. Does it without entering the AGC speed menu. Sometimes just changing
bands from 2 meters to 160 meters or some other band with band buttons and
when change back to
2 meters FM AGC-F shows on the display. Has anyone else experienced this?
KX3 #3649. Never noticed it before installing 2 meter module which was about
a month ago. Did use FM on 10 meters occasionally before I got the 2 meter
module and don't recall that happening. Once it changes it is that way in FM
mode on any band until you change it manually in the menu. Uc 2.33 DSP 1.33.
Not sure if it makes any difference in operation on FM as older analog
radios use a limiter. Is it just a display issue or does it affect FM RX in
some way on an SDR DSP radio? 


Larry KB2MN




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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[dyarnes]

Hi again,

I got several very nice responses to my question already, and it seems I 
need to do some adjusting.  My AGC threshold was set at 5, which apparently 
is too low.  I've also increased by AGC slope setting as well.  I'll have to 
check all this out with some weaker signals to see just how much difference 
that might have made.  Apparently I need to pay a lot more attention to 
these settings, and may have to adjust them more often depending on 
conditions, etc.  It was also suggested I set these adjustments up in a 
memory position, which makes a great deal of sense.  The K3's AGC seems to 
work very well, and I just need to take advantage of the fact that it can be 
adjusted a lot to accommodate different conditions.


Thanks for the advice folks, and I welcome any other suggestions as well. 
With my modest antennas I have to dig signals out of the noise quite often, 
so I obviously need to take better advantage of what control I do have!!! 
Hi.


Dave W7AQK 


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[d...@lightstream.net]

Dave,

That's good advice. I usually keep my AGC THR set to about 18. However,
the higher the threshold, the closer the dynamic range approaches that of
no AGC, but without the danger of overload or hitting the limiter that
will protect your hearing. If that isn't to your liking try dropping it
down to the mid to lower teens.

Also -- don't overlook something as easy as simply reducing your RF Gain
control. As you first begin to reduce it, the results are virtually
identical to what you'll get by raising the ACG THR level -- and it's
right there on the front panel. You may find that's all you need.

73, Dale
WA8SRA


 Hi again,

 I got several very nice responses to my question already, and it seems I
 need to do some adjusting.  My AGC threshold was set at 5, which
 apparently
 is too low.  I've also increased by AGC slope setting as well.  I'll have
 to
 check all this out with some weaker signals to see just how much
 difference
 that might have made.  Apparently I need to pay a lot more attention to
 these settings, and may have to adjust them more often depending on
 conditions, etc.  It was also suggested I set these adjustments up in a
 memory position, which makes a great deal of sense.  The K3's AGC seems to
 work very well, and I just need to take advantage of the fact that it can
 be
 adjusted a lot to accommodate different conditions.

 Thanks for the advice folks, and I welcome any other suggestions as well.
 With my modest antennas I have to dig signals out of the noise quite
 often,
 so I obviously need to take better advantage of what control I do have!!!
 Hi.

 Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC -- setting it up

[Cady, Fred]

Hi Dave,
Here is an easy test to see what THR level you should use.
First, set the SLP to 15.  That will give the most AGC action -- all signal 
strengths will sound about the same.  You might want to do this if you are 
listening to a round table of differing strength signals.  I keep my SLP = 0, 
to allow me to distinguish between strong and weak signal in a contest 
situation.
Next, choose a noisy band or the band that you want to set the AGC THR.  It 
very well could be different on different noisy bands.
Now, while listening to the noise, decrease the THR until you hear a decrease 
in noise.  You could also use the AFV and dBV measurements but that is a bit 
trickier.
If it were me, I'd set the THR a little higher than where it starts to be 
activated by the noise.  Actually, I like to run THR pretty high because I like 
to operate the receiver in a linear region to distinguish different strength 
signals.  Sometimes, though, I run the THR down a bit when there are a bunch of 
weak signals, like EUs calling, in addition to a bunch of strong US stations.  
Then having the AGC clip the stronger signals lets me run the AF or RF gain up 
to be able to hear the weaker EUs without blasting my ears with the stronger 
stations.

The bottom line is that there is tremendous flexibility in setting up the AGC 
and one size doesn't fit all.
Cheers and 73,
Fred
KE7X

Author of:
The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration and Operation 2nd ed
The Elecraft KX3 - Going for the summit
The Elecraft KPA500 and KAT500 - the K-Line Dream Station
Printed, coil bound copies of these are all available at www.elecraft.com
KPA500 and KAT500 Quick Set Up Guide
http://www.ke7x.com/home/k-line-introduction-and-set-up-guide
KAT500 and KXPA500 Tuner Operation
http://www.ke7x.com/home/kat500-and-kxpa100-tuners
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[Elecraft] AGC

[dyarnes]

Hi All,

Band conditions of late have made things pretty difficult.  Lots of QSB, and 
I'm hearing a lot more noise than usual.  Of late, I've had problems getting 
100% copy on some stations because the QSB, even when fast and not too deep, 
has clipped characters I try to copy (on CW) making it easy to miss 
something here and there.  I've been checking my AGC to make sure it was 
fast rather than slow, but that didn't always solve the problem 
satisfactorily.  Now, I do often just turn the AGC off, but that's usually 
to avoid the pumping that the AGC can cause.  I've always been an advocate 
of turning the AGC off at times, but I noticed something else recently. 
Probably I've noticed it before and just didn't think about it.


The recent combination of QSB and higher noise were BOTH much improved by 
just turning the AGC off.  The noise went down considerably!!!  That 
improved everything, and copy became 100%, or close to it!  I don't know why 
I didn't think to do this sooner!  Anyway, I am guessing that the AGC is 
enhancing the noise, and it has nothing to do with the K3 itself as to any 
oddity.  Somebody can probably explain this anomaly better to me.  I always 
have to be very careful when turning the AGC off, especially if I am wearing 
cans, but it sure does make a big difference on weaker signals.


Anyway, it was sort of a slap your forehead moment here!  Hi.  Time for me 
to read, or re-read, how to properly take advantage of AGC!


Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 2015-03-19 12:59 PM, dyarnes wrote:
 Anyway, it was sort of a slap your forehead moment here!  Hi.  Time
 for me to read, or re-read, how to properly take advantage of AGC!

First thing to to do is get out your XG-2 or XG-3 and run the RF gain
calibration on the K3.   If the gain cal is off, the AGC may activate
well before the signal has a chance to quiet the noise.  Sherwood had
that experience when he tested a K3 with the new synthesizers that had
not had the RF Gain Calibration performed before it left the Elecraft
factory.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV




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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[Don Wilhelm]

Dave,

Yes, AGC settings can 'enhance' the receiver noise if set incorrectly.
When testing AGC setting, listen not for the signals themselves, but to 
the pauses in the signals.
For more guidance on choosing the right AGC settings for your condition, 
check out the Noisy K3 article on my website www.w3fpr.com.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/19/2015 12:59 PM, dyarnes wrote:
The recent combination of QSB and higher noise were BOTH much improved 
by just turning the AGC off.  The noise went down considerably!!!  
That improved everything, and copy became 100%, or close to it!  I 
don't know why I didn't think to do this sooner!  Anyway, I am 
guessing that the AGC is enhancing the noise, and it has nothing to do 
with the K3 itself as to any oddity.  Somebody can probably explain 
this anomaly better to me. I always have to be very careful when 
turning the AGC off, especially if I am wearing cans, but it sure 
does make a big difference on weaker signals.




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[Elecraft] AGC

[William Levy]

I can't speak to AGC version 4.51 but as an op of 50 plus years I find in
difficult situations that I like better turning the AGC off and YES there
is an OFF button and then riding the RF gain. This I learned before we had
radios we could tweak and it still works today with software derived
systems.

As a photographer, pilot and ham with digital systems, sometimes the old
trusty proven ways are still the best. Auto, Automatic, Automatic tuning,
focusing, autopilot are simply generalized systems to help those without
cosmic understanding of the verities.

Beware of AUTO, manual operating and understanding of RF Gain, AGC and
filters will often do the trick.
Auto is for folks who don't understand manual mode.

As I play with new Nikon D800's and D4's I find I don't use Auto, Matrix or
Auto focus. In the same vane I don't find much help from AGC or Noise
Blankers or their ilk. Manual for those of us who know systems is still the
best. Experience counts.

Auto will never pull you out of an accident, bad band conditions or a lousy
picture. You need to know how to operate a camera, radio and plane.

In a plane when things get tough the rule is fly the plane. With a camera
put it on manual and find an exposure, with a radio turn off the darn AGC
and ride the RF control.

When we old timers are gone no one will remember and you will have to learn
these truths for yourselves.

73, N2WL Bill
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[W4ATK]

Amen Bill!

Jim, W4ATK
On May 30, 2012, at 3:59 PM, William Levy wrote:

 I can't speak to AGC version 4.51 but as an op of 50 plus years I find in
 difficult situations that I like better turning the AGC off and YES there
 is an OFF button and then riding the RF gain. This I learned before we had
 radios we could tweak and it still works today with software derived
 systems.
 
 As a photographer, pilot and ham with digital systems, sometimes the old
 trusty proven ways are still the best. Auto, Automatic, Automatic tuning,
 focusing, autopilot are simply generalized systems to help those without
 cosmic understanding of the verities.
 
 Beware of AUTO, manual operating and understanding of RF Gain, AGC and
 filters will often do the trick.
 Auto is for folks who don't understand manual mode.
 
 As I play with new Nikon D800's and D4's I find I don't use Auto, Matrix or
 Auto focus. In the same vane I don't find much help from AGC or Noise
 Blankers or their ilk. Manual for those of us who know systems is still the
 best. Experience counts.
 
 Auto will never pull you out of an accident, bad band conditions or a lousy
 picture. You need to know how to operate a camera, radio and plane.
 
 In a plane when things get tough the rule is fly the plane. With a camera
 put it on manual and find an exposure, with a radio turn off the darn AGC
 and ride the RF control.
 
 When we old timers are gone no one will remember and you will have to learn
 these truths for yourselves.
 
 73, N2WL Bill
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[David Gilbert]

I think that's an unwarranted generalization.   People who use automatic 
systems don't necessarily do so because they don't understand what is 
going on ... they may use them because they are faster, less prone to 
error, or free up hands/attention for other simultaneous tasks.   AGC is 
a good example of that.  If I'm operating at a high rate in a contest I 
want to use my hands for typing or tuning instead of riding the RF gain 
control.  Non-skid breaking systems on vehicles are an example of an 
automated system that WILL save your life, especially as you get older 
and slower to react.

I'm pretty old myself, and I can pretty much guarantee that the only 
thing that will change when we oldtimers are gone is that another group 
of folks will take our place to pontificate on how much better it was 
the way they used to do it.

Dave   AB7E




On 5/30/2012 1:59 PM, William Levy wrote:
 I can't speak to AGC version 4.51 but as an op of 50 plus years I find in
 difficult situations that I like better turning the AGC off and YES there
 is an OFF button and then riding the RF gain. This I learned before we had
 radios we could tweak and it still works today with software derived
 systems.

 As a photographer, pilot and ham with digital systems, sometimes the old
 trusty proven ways are still the best. Auto, Automatic, Automatic tuning,
 focusing, autopilot are simply generalized systems to help those without
 cosmic understanding of the verities.

 Beware of AUTO, manual operating and understanding of RF Gain, AGC and
 filters will often do the trick.
 Auto is for folks who don't understand manual mode.

 As I play with new Nikon D800's and D4's I find I don't use Auto, Matrix or
 Auto focus. In the same vane I don't find much help from AGC or Noise
 Blankers or their ilk. Manual for those of us who know systems is still the
 best. Experience counts.

 Auto will never pull you out of an accident, bad band conditions or a lousy
 picture. You need to know how to operate a camera, radio and plane.

 In a plane when things get tough the rule is fly the plane. With a camera
 put it on manual and find an exposure, with a radio turn off the darn AGC
 and ride the RF control.

 When we old timers are gone no one will remember and you will have to learn
 these truths for yourselves.

 73, N2WL Bill
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and…CW Decode

[W4ATK]

 I admit it. I love my CW but am CW Challenged.  I was taught Morse 
code by the U.S.Navy in Radioman School and had to master 20 WPM to graduate. 
How I struggled. Finally after being set back two weeks I finally got 20 WPM 
and was able to go on to CT school for the balance of my training. I went 
straight down to the FCC office and got my general class ticket. 

Thankfully, the Navy decided to make me a non-morse operator in CT 
school and I spent the balance of my naval career as a CT O branch operator. 
I have been operating mostly CW since getting back on the air in 2004. I can 
copy call signs well at much higher speeds, but am most comfortable around 18 
WPM for rag chews.

I find that the CW Decode feature of the K3 to be a great assist to 
someone of my questionable talents. Most decoders suffer from an susceptibility 
to noise, so anything you can do to improve the signal to noise ratio is 
beneficial. The decoder in the K3 is one of the best I have ever used. When a 
K3 rookie friend asked for help in using CW Decode, I came up with a 
procedure I use for copy those weak DX signals.

One note of caution, turning off the AGC without decreasing the RF gain 
before doing so, can result in a loud CRASH from your headphones or speakers. I 
also have the AF LIM set to protect my K3 AF amp.
CW Text Decode on the K3 W4ATK style.
1) Set MODE to CW.- makes sense.
2) Set AF Gain and RF Gain fully CCW (counter clockwise, all the way to zero).
3) HOLD AGC (turns the AGC off)  
4) If a special VFO B display mode is in effect CANCEL it.
5) HOLD TEXT DEC, the select CW 5-40(or 30 - 90)  using VFO B. (You will see a 
small T  below the CW icon on the display).
6) Adjust the threshold (THR) using VFO A,  AUTO or 1 to 6.  ( Around 3 to 4 
works for me most of the time)
7) Tap CWT to exit.
8) Advance the RF GAIN to 50% or so.  Advance the AF GAIN to a comfortable 
listening level
9) TUNE in a CW signal and adjust the RF GAIN for best copy.
10) After the signal is tuned in and copying, try reducing the WIDTH to 100Hz 
(0.1).
Using this procedure I can copy some very weak CW signals, weak enough to not 
be easily discerned on the P3.  As I move about the band looking for contact I 
widen the selectivity as needed and ride the RF gain.
Jim, W4ATK
Licensed 1953
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC

[R Thompson]

An operator for 42 years, also into aviation (avionics), a bit of
astronomy, and photography, I'd like to add that I also need and often
prefer that manual option.  

 Ron VE8RT

On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 16:59 -0400, William Levy wrote:
 I can't speak to AGC version 4.51 but as an op of 50 plus years I find in
 difficult situations that I like better turning the AGC off and YES there
 is an OFF button and then riding the RF gain. This I learned before we had
 radios we could tweak and it still works today with software derived
 systems.
 
 As a photographer, pilot and ham with digital systems, sometimes the old
 trusty proven ways are still the best. Auto, Automatic, Automatic tuning,
 focusing, autopilot are simply generalized systems to help those without
 cosmic understanding of the verities.
 
 Beware of AUTO, manual operating and understanding of RF Gain, AGC and
 filters will often do the trick.
 Auto is for folks who don't understand manual mode.
 
 As I play with new Nikon D800's and D4's I find I don't use Auto, Matrix or
 Auto focus. In the same vane I don't find much help from AGC or Noise
 Blankers or their ilk. Manual for those of us who know systems is still the
 best. Experience counts.
 
 Auto will never pull you out of an accident, bad band conditions or a lousy
 picture. You need to know how to operate a camera, radio and plane.
 
 In a plane when things get tough the rule is fly the plane. With a camera
 put it on manual and find an exposure, with a radio turn off the darn AGC
 and ride the RF control.
 
 When we old timers are gone no one will remember and you will have to learn
 these truths for yourselves.
 
 73, N2WL Bill
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[Elecraft] AGC

[Richard Thorpe]

Is the new AGC firmware going to go public beta anytime soon?

K6CG
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[Elecraft] AGC comparison FW 4.48 vs 4.50 vs 4.51. My face is red

[Dave Hachadorian]

After I posted my glowing report on FW 4.50, I received an email 
from N6XI suggesting that I should try reversing the two K3's 
used in the comparison.  I tried that today, and was astonished 
to see that the big differences I was seeing were in the radios, 
and not the firmware.  It turned out to be two different pieces 
of external hardware that were causing the big differences - 
quite a fiasco on my part.

The bottom line is that I can't detect much difference in CW 
performance of the three versions of the software.  The signal 
dropout that was present in 4.50 has been fixed.

If there are differences in cw performance among the various 
firmware versions, they are subtle.  I'm sorry for the 
over-enthusiastic initial posting.


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona















































. 

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[Elecraft] AGC settings saved per band?

[Andy Wood]

With all the current efforts on the K3 AGC, how much extra work would it be
to have an option to save the settings per band? I am sure many operators
would appreciate this feature.

Andy  VK4KY

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Tommy Alderman]

Thanks for the correction Bill! 

No, it was my fingers not doing what my brain cell was telling them to do. 

CORRECTION:  Setting mine to 35 during contest seemed to remove the
recovery delay.

73,
Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:50 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit


Tommy Alderman wrote
 
 Another option (for contest), in CONFIG, set AGC-S to a higher number.
 Setting mine to 75 during contest seemed to remove the recovery delay.
 
 Tom - W4BQF
 

AGC-S can only be set as high as 40, so you may be thinking of a different
rig (Orion?).  AGC-S in the K3 ranges from 5 to 40 and AGC-F ranges from 80
to 200.  

K0WA never stated whether he had NR activated, which also could have
contributed to his problem.  I recently experienced this myself while
calling to 4W0VB on 80m and discovered I had accidentally enabled NR instead
of disabling NB.

73,  Bill


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

I always have my slow AGC set to 40, and I use it almost exclusively in
contests.  Particularly I use it to hold the higher level of the loudest
station calling in a pileup on the monotonic muddle that is lemmings all
calling exactly on a spot frequency.  But I just need it to hang about a
word space on CW, and about a syllable on SSB.  Fast AGC on CW makes the
monotonic lemming muddle far worse.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 8:28 AM, Tommy Alderman alderm...@windstream.netwrote:

 Thanks for the correction Bill!

 No, it was my fingers not doing what my brain cell was telling them to do.

 CORRECTION:  Setting mine to 35 during contest seemed to remove the
 recovery delay.

 73,
 Tom - W4BQF


 -Original Message-
 From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
 [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV
 Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 9:50 PM
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit


 Tommy Alderman wrote
 
  Another option (for contest), in CONFIG, set AGC-S to a higher number.
  Setting mine to 75 during contest seemed to remove the recovery delay.
 
  Tom - W4BQF
 

 AGC-S can only be set as high as 40, so you may be thinking of a different
 rig (Orion?).  AGC-S in the K3 ranges from 5 to 40 and AGC-F ranges from 80
 to 200.

 K0WA never stated whether he had NR activated, which also could have
 contributed to his problem.  I recently experienced this myself while
 calling to 4W0VB on 80m and discovered I had accidentally enabled NR
 instead
 of disabling NB.

 73,  Bill


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[Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Lee Buller]

I this weekend's NAQP SSB contest, I notice times when the K3 went to receive 
the audio volume was low...less signal...but then recovered after a few seconds 
or on the next transmission cycle.

Is there something going on with the AGC?  My K3 is very standard...run of the 
mill settingsslow AGC...factory settings.  But it seems the receiver did 
not 
come back fast enough after Xmit.

Comments?

Lee - K0WA


 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you 
don't 
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find 
any 
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common 
Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. 
-  John W. (Kansas)

Never interfere with anything that isn't bothering you.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Bill W4ZV]

Lee Buller wrote
 
 I this weekend's NAQP SSB contest, I notice times when the K3 went to
 receive 
 the audio volume was low...less signal...but then recovered after a few
 seconds 
 or on the next transmission cycle.
 
 Is there something going on with the AGC?  My K3 is very standard...run of
 the 
 mill settingsslow AGC...factory settings.  But it seems the receiver
 did not 
 come back fast enough after Xmit.
 

Was NR enabled?  It can cause problems like this.  BTW I never use Slow AGC
in contests...it's best left for leisurely ragchewing.

73,  Bill


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Don Wilhelm]

Lee,

Did you have NR turned on?  If so, that is the reason - it takes dome 
time to build a filter around a signal.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/23/2012 12:44 PM, Lee Buller wrote:

 I this weekend's NAQP SSB contest, I notice times when the K3 went to receive
 the audio volume was low...less signal...but then recovered after a few 
 seconds
 or on the next transmission cycle.

 Is there something going on with the AGC?  My K3 is very standard...run of the
 mill settingsslow AGC...factory settings.  But it seems the receiver did 
 not
 come back fast enough after Xmit.

 Comments?

 Lee - K0WA


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Did you use slow AGC and was the RX gain still reduced (from a strong RX
signal) when you started your transmission? If yes to both, it works as
intended. The RX starts back up with the AGC level as it was just before
transmission started.

AB2TC - Knut


Lee Buller wrote
 
 I this weekend's NAQP SSB contest, I notice times when the K3 went to
 receive 
 the audio volume was low...less signal...but then recovered after a few
 seconds 
 or on the next transmission cycle.
 
 Is there something going on with the AGC?  My K3 is very standard...run of
 the 
 mill settingsslow AGC...factory settings.  But it seems the receiver
 did not 
 come back fast enough after Xmit.
 
 Comments?
 
 Lee - K0WA
 
 snip
 


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[David Gilbert]

Same here, and I almost never use slow AGC for anything.  I mistakenly 
started the NAQP this weekend with AGC set to slow, but I quickly 
realized the problem when the gain wasn't recovering fast enough to 
catch the reports of weaker callers ... especially if the AGC had just 
been hit hard by QRM or a strong late caller.   Fast AGC worked just fine.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 1/23/2012 10:55 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
 BTW I never use Slow AGC
 in contests...it's best left for leisurely ragchewing.

 73,  Bill

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Lee Buller]

H.got some things to try out here

I will switch from slow to fast AGC.  I am a slow agc user.  Why?  Dunno

I will also check out the outside relay box too.

Lee - K0WA


 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you 
don't 
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find 
any 
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common 
Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. 
-  John W. (Kansas)

Never interfere with anything that isn't bothering you.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Tommy Alderman]

Another option (for contest), in CONFIG, set AGC-S to a higher number.
Setting mine to 75 during contest seemed to remove the recovery delay.

Tom - W4BQF



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lee Buller
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 2:47 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit


H.got some things to try out here

I will switch from slow to fast AGC.  I am a slow agc user.  Why?  Dunno

I will also check out the outside relay box too.

Lee - K0WA


 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you
don't 
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find
any 
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is
Common 
Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my
mind. 
-  John W. (Kansas)

Never interfere with anything that isn't bothering you.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and SSB - Low signals after Xmit

[Bill W4ZV]

Tommy Alderman wrote
 
 Another option (for contest), in CONFIG, set AGC-S to a higher number.
 Setting mine to 75 during contest seemed to remove the recovery delay.
 
 Tom - W4BQF
 

AGC-S can only be set as high as 40, so you may be thinking of a different
rig (Orion?).  AGC-S in the K3 ranges from 5 to 40 and AGC-F ranges from 80
to 200.  

K0WA never stated whether he had NR activated, which also could have
contributed to his problem.  I recently experienced this myself while
calling to 4W0VB on 80m and discovered I had accidentally enabled NR instead
of disabling NB.

73,  Bill


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[Elecraft] AGC mush or noise

[Ron Leech]

Can you at Elecraft not make a program that you could send out that 
would clone the K3 radio programming so that the user could send it back 
to Elecraft for examination for errors and or possible a program update 
to rectify the up coming complaints that could give it bad name.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Weird Behavior

[David Inger]

Thanks to everyone who responded to me directly or on the reflector.  There
was a consensus that the AGC problem is related to using  Ham Radio Deluxe.
I have a relatively early K3 (#565) have used HRD since I have had the
radio.  However,  I only just started using the HRD Logger program; this
coincides with the AGC problem.  So, it is possible that certain HRD modules
(such as the basic interface and DM780) may not be the cause of the AGC shut
off but, due to excessive polling, the problem can occur when other modules
are enabled.
 
I don't really want to abandon HRD and particularly the DM780 module, but I
can't have it messing with my radio!
 
Again, thanks for all the help.
 
73 de K6SBA
David in Santa Barbara CA
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[Elecraft] AGC shuts off by itself

[tomb18]

Hi,
I seem to have an issue with my K3 where the AGC will turn off all by itself
and then of course I get blasted with loud signals.
At firsts I thought I had pressed something inadvertently, but twice in the
last two days, I was just sitting there and it turned off.  It doesn't
happen often ( once every 4 or 5 hours of use) but it is annoying.  Is this
a known issue?

Thanks, VA2FSQ 

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC shuts off by itself

[Don Wilhelm]

If you are running with Ham Radio Deluxe, it is a known issue.  HRD 
polls the K3 constantly and things seem to get mixed up.  I believe 
Simon is working on a fix, but I don't have anything concrete, that 
statement is only speculation.

73,
Don w3FPR

On 8/8/2011 10:06 PM, tomb18 wrote:
 Hi,
 I seem to have an issue with my K3 where the AGC will turn off all by itself
 and then of course I get blasted with loud signals.
 At firsts I thought I had pressed something inadvertently, but twice in the
 last two days, I was just sitting there and it turned off.  It doesn't
 happen often ( once every 4 or 5 hours of use) but it is annoying.  Is this
 a known issue?

 Thanks, VA2FSQ

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Jens Petersen]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:38:08 -0500, you wrote:

Going back through some notes here seems to indicate that once 
I downed HRD while meeting the one and only SSB group I enjoy cured 
the problem. Why it is so sensitive to only the AGC on/off I have not 
a clue. But I had it no more after that.

I have had this problem since I got my P3.

I'm mostly running RTTY and other digimodes and in contests it happens
1 or 2 times per hour, mostly while in TX.

When I switch off the P3, the problem disapper.

Today I loaded firmware 1.08 in P3 and then the problem occurs several
times per hour, just receiving.

I'm using HRD. 
K3 firmware is 4.25
-- 
OV1A Jens

 Sent from my desktop PC with a nice big screen and a real keyboard.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Stephen Prior]

Since I stopped using HRD and turned Mac only, I have never once had the AGC
turning off problem repeat itself (I am using a P3 too).

Therefore I am 100% sure that it is (what others have called 'aggressive')
polling from HRD.

It might be worth installing LP Bridge, because even though you may have no
need to share a serial connection, it features buffering of the HRD data.
That way you could keep using HRD.

73 Stephen G4SJP


On 19 June 2011 09:48, Jens Petersen o...@c.dk wrote:

 On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:38:08 -0500, you wrote:

 Going back through some notes here seems to indicate that once
 I downed HRD while meeting the one and only SSB group I enjoy cured
 the problem. Why it is so sensitive to only the AGC on/off I have not
 a clue. But I had it no more after that.

 I have had this problem since I got my P3.

 I'm mostly running RTTY and other digimodes and in contests it happens
 1 or 2 times per hour, mostly while in TX.

 When I switch off the P3, the problem disapper.

 Today I loaded firmware 1.08 in P3 and then the problem occurs several
 times per hour, just receiving.

 I'm using HRD.
 K3 firmware is 4.25
 --
 OV1A Jens

  Sent from my desktop PC with a nice big screen and a real keyboard.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Dick Lindzen]

I've been having the same problem since getting the P3 and I also use 
HRD.  I'll try LP-Bridge, but there really ought to be a better solution.

73, Dick WO1I

At 07:38 AM 6/19/2011, Stephen Prior wrote:
Since I stopped using HRD and turned Mac only, I have never once had the AGC
turning off problem repeat itself (I am using a P3 too).

Therefore I am 100% sure that it is (what others have called 'aggressive')
polling from HRD.

It might be worth installing LP Bridge, because even though you may have no
need to share a serial connection, it features buffering of the HRD data.
That way you could keep using HRD.

73 Stephen G4SJP


On 19 June 2011 09:48, Jens Petersen o...@c.dk wrote:

  On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:38:08 -0500, you wrote:
 
  Going back through some notes here seems to indicate that once
  I downed HRD while meeting the one and only SSB group I enjoy cured
  the problem. Why it is so sensitive to only the AGC on/off I have not
  a clue. But I had it no more after that.
 
  I have had this problem since I got my P3.
 
  I'm mostly running RTTY and other digimodes and in contests it happens
  1 or 2 times per hour, mostly while in TX.
 
  When I switch off the P3, the problem disapper.
 
  Today I loaded firmware 1.08 in P3 and then the problem occurs several
  times per hour, just receiving.
 
  I'm using HRD.
  K3 firmware is 4.25
  --
  OV1A Jens
 
   Sent from my desktop PC with a nice big screen and a real keyboard.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Just to note firmly that this is not a problem with the K3.  Radio
firmware cannot be expected to provide workarounds for any and all
programming mistakes in third party software.

I have noted over the years that some firms, usually small software
suppliers, can be very stubborn in not dealing with issues, for any
number of reasons, varying all the way from just plain meanness to
declining health to family situations, and sometimes will spend great
energy in refusing to do anything about problems having to do with
another company that has become a peeve with them, for whatever
reason.  Since there are NO standards for programming of this sort it
will remain a jungle, and very much subject to personalities.

We have to make sure that we do not misplace the source of the
trouble, and dump our complaints on the innocent party just because
they may be more available or visible.

HRD has a problem on this one.  It will not do to say that K3 should
be immune.  The conversation should move to HRD's venue.

I for one do NOT want to see peripheral software bugs being worked
around in K3 firmware.  Uses up space in firmware, run time,
programmer time that I would rather see spent on things that MUST be
done in K3 firmware, if at all.  Wayne is a finite resource.  Spend it
very well.

73, Guy.

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Dick Lindzen rlind...@mit.edu wrote:
 I've been having the same problem since getting the P3 and I also use
 HRD.  I'll try LP-Bridge, but there really ought to be a better solution.

 73, Dick WO1I

 At 07:38 AM 6/19/2011, Stephen Prior wrote:
Since I stopped using HRD and turned Mac only, I have never once had the AGC
turning off problem repeat itself (I am using a P3 too).

Therefore I am 100% sure that it is (what others have called 'aggressive')
polling from HRD.

It might be worth installing LP Bridge, because even though you may have no
need to share a serial connection, it features buffering of the HRD data.
That way you could keep using HRD.

73 Stephen G4SJP


On 19 June 2011 09:48, Jens Petersen o...@c.dk wrote:

  On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:38:08 -0500, you wrote:
 
  Going back through some notes here seems to indicate that once
  I downed HRD while meeting the one and only SSB group I enjoy cured
  the problem. Why it is so sensitive to only the AGC on/off I have not
  a clue. But I had it no more after that.
 
  I have had this problem since I got my P3.
 
  I'm mostly running RTTY and other digimodes and in contests it happens
  1 or 2 times per hour, mostly while in TX.
 
  When I switch off the P3, the problem disapper.
 
  Today I loaded firmware 1.08 in P3 and then the problem occurs several
  times per hour, just receiving.
 
  I'm using HRD.
  K3 firmware is 4.25
  --
  OV1A Jens
 
   Sent from my desktop PC with a nice big screen and a real keyboard.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Jens Petersen]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:14:37 -0400, you wrote:

Just to note firmly that this is not a problem with the K3.  Radio
firmware cannot be expected to provide workarounds for any and all
programming mistakes in third party software.

Agree - but since it got much worse after installing ver. 1.08 it
looks to me as there might be a timing issue in P3 firmware.

We have to make sure that we do not misplace the source of the
trouble, and dump our complaints on the innocent party just because
they may be more available or visible.

HRD has a problem on this one.  It will not do to say that K3 should
be immune.  The conversation should move to HRD's venue.

I'm sure Simon Brown (mr HRD) will do what he can to address this
issue, but he dont have a P3 in his shack.

-- 
OV1A Jens

 Sent from my desktop PC with a nice big screen and a real keyboard.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

  Agree - but since it got much worse after installing ver. 1.08 it
  looks to me as there might be a timing issue in P3 firmware.

It is still a timing issue in HRD ... HRD gets p***ed off when it
does not get an instant reply to its polls.  Watch the data with a
port snooping tool and you will see a regular set of polls with the
same data requested, three or even four times in succession with the
retry the very instant the K3 responds to the first (or second, etc.)
poll for the same data.  HRD insists on changing the command protocol
(K30 - K31 and back) on a regular basis and polls for a large amount
of excess data (firmware versions, option levels, etc. that does
not change during operation) every couple of seconds.

Frankly it is a miracle that the P3/K3 combination can cope with
so much programmatic abuse.

  I'm sure Simon Brown (mr HRD) will do what he can to address this
  issue, but he dont have a P3 in his shack.

AFAIK, he doesn't have a K3 any more either.  In any case, it does
not take a P3 to fix the basic polling issues responsible for this
problem.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 6/19/2011 12:28 PM, Jens Petersen wrote:
 On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:14:37 -0400, you wrote:

 Just to note firmly that this is not a problem with the K3.  Radio
 firmware cannot be expected to provide workarounds for any and all
 programming mistakes in third party software.

 Agree - but since it got much worse after installing ver. 1.08 it
 looks to me as there might be a timing issue in P3 firmware.

 We have to make sure that we do not misplace the source of the
 trouble, and dump our complaints on the innocent party just because
 they may be more available or visible.

 HRD has a problem on this one.  It will not do to say that K3 should
 be immune.  The conversation should move to HRD's venue.

 I'm sure Simon Brown (mr HRD) will do what he can to address this
 issue, but he dont have a P3 in his shack.

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[David Herring]

I don't run windows or HRD in the shack anymore, but I just checked my notes, 
and you can change the polling rate and timeout in HRD.  Bring up HRD, go in to 
Options. Once there, click on the Comms tab. Once there, look around...there 
is Polling Timeout and Refresh Interval which may be adjusted to make HRD a 
little more neighborly.  I think it defaulted to something like 500 
milliseconds maybe, and I think I set mine to 1000 milliseconds (1 second) and 
it helped.  The polling timeout might help the P3 users as well.

HTH.

73  Aloha,

Dave, AH6TD


On Jun 19, 2011, at 7:46 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

 
 Agree - but since it got much worse after installing ver. 1.08 it
 looks to me as there might be a timing issue in P3 firmware.
 
 It is still a timing issue in HRD ... HRD gets p***ed off when it
 does not get an instant reply to its polls.  Watch the data with a
 port snooping tool and you will see a regular set of polls with the
 same data requested, three or even four times in succession with the
 retry the very instant the K3 responds to the first (or second, etc.)
 poll for the same data.  HRD insists on changing the command protocol
 (K30 - K31 and back) on a regular basis and polls for a large amount
 of excess data (firmware versions, option levels, etc. that does
 not change during operation) every couple of seconds.
 
 Frankly it is a miracle that the P3/K3 combination can cope with
 so much programmatic abuse.
 
 I'm sure Simon Brown (mr HRD) will do what he can to address this
 issue, but he dont have a P3 in his shack.
 
 AFAIK, he doesn't have a K3 any more either.  In any case, it does
 not take a P3 to fix the basic polling issues responsible for this
 problem.
 
 73,
 
... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 6/19/2011 12:28 PM, Jens Petersen wrote:
 On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:14:37 -0400, you wrote:
 
 Just to note firmly that this is not a problem with the K3.  Radio
 firmware cannot be expected to provide workarounds for any and all
 programming mistakes in third party software.
 
 Agree - but since it got much worse after installing ver. 1.08 it
 looks to me as there might be a timing issue in P3 firmware.
 
 We have to make sure that we do not misplace the source of the
 trouble, and dump our complaints on the innocent party just because
 they may be more available or visible.
 
 HRD has a problem on this one.  It will not do to say that K3 should
 be immune.  The conversation should move to HRD's venue.
 
 I'm sure Simon Brown (mr HRD) will do what he can to address this
 issue, but he dont have a P3 in his shack.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Jens Petersen]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:32:45 -1000, you wrote:

I don't run windows or HRD in the shack anymore, but I just checked my notes, 
and you can change the polling rate and timeout in HRD.  Bring up HRD, go in 
to Options. Once there, click on the Comms tab. Once there, look 
around...there is Polling Timeout and Refresh Interval which may be 
adjusted to make HRD a little more neighborly.  I think it defaulted to 
something like 500 milliseconds maybe, and I think I set mine to 1000 
milliseconds (1 second) and it helped.  The polling timeout might help the P3 
users as well.

Default Read Timeout is 500ms and can't be set larger.

Refresh Interval is default 100ms and setting it larger help, but it
still goes AGC off now and then, just RX-ing.

Waiting for response from Simon Brown.
-- 
OV1A Jens

 Sent from my desktop PC with a nice big screen and a real keyboard.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[JAMES ROGERS]

Just thought I would throw this in, since I changed off of HRD (I switched to 
Mac) I have never had a recurrence of the AGC problem.

73s Jim, W4ATK

JIM ROGERS, W4ATK
w4...@bellsouth.net
http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk
K3/100 P3
K2/10




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[Elecraft] agc and nr

[Tony Estep]

Well guys, here are instructions that may help you get the most out of what
we've got today:

http://n1eu.com/K3/K3_rxgain.htm
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Noise-Reduction-td5789453.html
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Noise-Reduction-td5789453.html
HTH,
Tony KT0NY
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Stephen Prior]

This has happened to me several times too, but only on 60m.  I am
suspicious that Ham Radio Deluxe may be involved in this somewhere.  The
trouble is because it's such a random event it's difficult to be sure.
However, it's never happened just sitting on rx, only after a period of
ssb transmission.  I hardly ever use ssb so it's going to take me a while
to track this one down!  Running 4.29 firmware, but it's happened over
several versions.

73, Stephen G4SJP

On 06/04/2011 01:08, W4CCS w4...@w4ccs.com wrote:


Recently I have been experiencing a problem with the AGC on my K3
(2090). When I return to receive from transmit, the AGC is turned off
and the speaker system is overloaded. This happens on about every 10 to
15 transmissions. It has happened with the K3 sitting on the desk in
receive.. This is very annoying and very hard on the ears..!!

I'm running firmware versions:

MCU: 04.25

DSP12: 2.71

de W4CCS
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

There is only one manual way to turn off the AGC and that is to do a
hold on the AGC button.  Youi can dismiss an intermittent connection
in the 5 button, because that should randomly switch fast to slow and
back, besides turning AGC off.  One would also think that an
intermittent 5 button would mess up other stuff as well.

You can test this yourself by setting AGC to S or F, then tapping
XMIT, then doing a hold on AGC OFF. You will find that this will
terminate the XMIT state during the hold and will NOT change the AGC
to off state.

IMHO, that makes the computer and/or programs, which can do it with a
command, the prime suspect.

==

Universal suspect list for all K3 troubles -- trouble shoot in this
order for quickest, cheapest path back to full operation and sanity,
and public appearance of experthood:

1) RTFM  (Adobe Reader search of PDF very useful)
2) Nothing in second place (maybe not in third place either)
3) Computer AND Operator  (bad manual/program/OS AND confused operator)
4) Operator
5) Computer
6) RF in shack
7) K3

Regards and good luck...

73, Guy.

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Stephen  Prior s...@sjprior.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
 This has happened to me several times too, but only on 60m.  I am
 suspicious that Ham Radio Deluxe may be involved in this somewhere.  The
 trouble is because it's such a random event it's difficult to be sure.
 However, it's never happened just sitting on rx, only after a period of
 ssb transmission.  I hardly ever use ssb so it's going to take me a while
 to track this one down!  Running 4.29 firmware, but it's happened over
 several versions.

 73, Stephen G4SJP

 On 06/04/2011 01:08, W4CCS w4...@w4ccs.com wrote:


Recently I have been experiencing a problem with the AGC on my K3
(2090). When I return to receive from transmit, the AGC is turned off
and the speaker system is overloaded. This happens on about every 10 to
15 transmissions. It has happened with the K3 sitting on the desk in
receive.. This is very annoying and very hard on the ears..!!

I'm running firmware versions:

MCU: 04.25

DSP12: 2.71

de W4CCS
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[David Honey]

At 01:08 06/04/2011, W4CCS wrote:
Recently I have been experiencing a problem with the AGC on my K3
(2090). When I return to receive from transmit, the AGC is turned off
and the speaker system is overloaded. This happens on about every 10 to
15 transmissions. It has happened with the K3 sitting on the desk in
receive.. This is very annoying and very hard on the ears..!!

I've had the same thing happen a few times with my K3 on SSB. First 
time it happened it made me jump as the audio volume was so loud. 
It's not consistent, but seems to happen more frequently with longer 
TX periods. I do use HRD most of the time with my K3+P3.

It might only happen once a week with me. Since it seems to be 
sporadic, I wonder whether there is some kind of timing window for a 
firmware defect. Say, a combination of commands from HRD plus PTT 
on/off plus firmware timing.

Fortunately, I tend to operate more CW than Phone, so at this stage 
it's just an occasional irritation. But it would be nice to get this fixed.

David M0DHO 


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[JAMES ROGERS]

Going back through some notes here seems to indicate that once I downed HRD 
while meeting the one and only SSB group I enjoy cured the problem. Why it is 
so sensitive to only the AGC on/off I have not a clue. But I had it no more 
after that.

73s Jim
On Apr 6, 2011, at 1:00 PM, David Honey wrote:

 At 01:08 06/04/2011, W4CCS wrote:
 Recently I have been experiencing a problem with the AGC on my K3
 (2090). When I return to receive from transmit, the AGC is turned off
 and the speaker system is overloaded. This happens on about every 10 to
 15 transmissions. It has happened with the K3 sitting on the desk in
 receive.. This is very annoying and very hard on the ears..!!
 
 I've had the same thing happen a few times with my K3 on SSB. First 
 time it happened it made me jump as the audio volume was so loud. 
 It's not consistent, but seems to happen more frequently with longer 
 TX periods. I do use HRD most of the time with my K3+P3.
 
 It might only happen once a week with me. Since it seems to be 
 sporadic, I wonder whether there is some kind of timing window for a 
 firmware defect. Say, a combination of commands from HRD plus PTT 
 on/off plus firmware timing.
 
 Fortunately, I tend to operate more CW than Phone, so at this stage 
 it's just an occasional irritation. But it would be nice to get this fixed.
 
 David M0DHO 
 
 
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JIM ROGERS, W4ATK
w4...@bellsouth.net
http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk
K3/100 P3
K2/10




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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[W4CCS]

Recently I have been experiencing a problem with the AGC on my K3 
(2090). When I return to receive from transmit, the AGC is turned off 
and the speaker system is overloaded. This happens on about every 10 to 
15 transmissions. It has happened with the K3 sitting on the desk in 
receive.. This is very annoying and very hard on the ears..!!

I'm running firmware versions:

MCU: 04.25

DSP12: 2.71

de W4CCS
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC Problem

[Don Wilhelm]

  Does that happen with the bare K3, or is there a computer control 
application involved to further muddy the waters.

If it happens with nothing connected to the K3 except a mic, key, power 
and antenna, then I would suggest that you contact 
k3supp...@elecraft.com.  If there are other devices involved, then 
eliminate them one by one to see if the problem is resolved with the 
deletion of that device.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/5/2011 8:08 PM, W4CCS wrote:
 Recently I have been experiencing a problem with the AGC on my K3
 (2090). When I return to receive from transmit, the AGC is turned off
 and the speaker system is overloaded. This happens on about every 10 to
 15 transmissions. It has happened with the K3 sitting on the desk in
 receive.. This is very annoying and very hard on the ears..!!

 I'm running firmware versions:

 MCU: 04.25

 DSP12: 2.71

 de W4CCS
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[Elecraft] AGC story

[eric manning]

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[Elecraft] AGC threshold

[Pete Smith]

Are there engineering reasons why the AGC threshold level can be set no 
higher than 8?  KE7X suggests that this value, if increased, would lead 
to better performance in receiving pileups, without having to turn off 
the AGC altogether.

-- 
73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at 
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC threshold

[Dave Hachadorian]

Need threshold higher than 8, and Slope with a number less than 
zero, which translates to a steeper curve.

With such settings, AGC would be used for hardware protection and 
hearing protection only.  The linear part of the curve would be 
maximized.


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ



-Original Message- 
From: Pete Smith
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:01 AM
To: Elecraft List
Subject: [Elecraft] AGC threshold

Are there engineering reasons why the AGC threshold level can be 
set no
higher than 8?  KE7X suggests that this value, if increased, 
would lead
to better performance in receiving pileups, without having to 
turn off
the AGC altogether.

-- 
73, Pete N4ZR

The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at 
www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at 
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC threshold

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

I have suggested an AGC setting where the response is linear until a
maximum audio level is reached, where the AGC cuts in flat with with a
slow decay that converts to fast decay over one second.  To set up for
this, turn your audio to your normal audio.  Then tune in a very
strong carrier.  Adjust the audio limiter in config to the loudest
tone you want to hear. Use the RF gain/PRE/ATT to get the band ambient
noise at a comfortable level.  For this contest AGC, light both
the S and F on the display.  I believe this will give the results of
riding RF gain with no AGC, without the blasts.

For myself, the above should be what you should get with AGC in the
off position, but that is another discussion.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote:
 Need threshold higher than 8, and Slope with a number less than
 zero, which translates to a steeper curve.

 With such settings, AGC would be used for hardware protection and
 hearing protection only.  The linear part of the curve would be
 maximized.


 Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
 Yuma, AZ



 -Original Message-
 From: Pete Smith
 Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:01 AM
 To: Elecraft List
 Subject: [Elecraft] AGC threshold

 Are there engineering reasons why the AGC threshold level can be
 set no
 higher than 8?  KE7X suggests that this value, if increased,
 would lead
 to better performance in receiving pileups, without having to
 turn off
 the AGC altogether.

 --
 73, Pete N4ZR

 The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at
 www.conteststations.com
 The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
 reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
 spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[pd0psb]

For me,  there are MUCH better uses of time when running  during a contest
than fooling around dancing with the AGC  DSP  settings.  Further, dancing
with the AGC  DSP simply isn't  neccessary

Totally agree! We hams should not be experimenting with our equipment, we
should just buy a radio and make contacts. No need at all to waste any time
on useless studying the working and technology of our gear. This has totally
nothing to do with hamradio.

ahum...

73'
Paul
PD0PSB
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-DSP-Rain-Dance-tp4538336p4539741.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Philippe Trottet]

Hi Paul, 
Where is the Ham spirit, even if we are not able today to do our own
equipment as during the past.
Modern Hams became lazzy because technology give us everything on a
plate without any efforts !
May be I'm jurassic but Elecraft waked up my Ham spirit after decades
of using commercial rigs, professionally and on the Ham side.
Bst 73's
Philippe
K3#3616
 
By Hams, for Hams...What else !
 
 

Philippe TROTTET 
Head of Field Telecom Unit - DUBAI

 
United Nations High Commissioner for  Refugees
International Humanitarian City
Office Building Nº3 - Room 2, 1st Floor
Doha Street
PO BOX: 506013
DUBAI - U.A.E.
 
Dubai time: GMT +4
W: Sunday to Thursday
HQ Ext: 7120
Vsat: xx 41 22 7120
External:
+971 4 3601753
+41 22 739 7120
Mobile: +971 504531756
Website: www.unhcr.org ( http://www.unhcr.org/ )


 pd0psb p.s.bijp...@gmail.com 09-02-2010 11:50 

For me,  there are MUCH better uses of time when running  during a
contest
than fooling around dancing with the AGC  DSP  settings.  Further,
dancing
with the AGC  DSP simply isn't  neccessary

Totally agree! We hams should not be experimenting with our equipment,
we
should just buy a radio and make contacts. No need at all to waste any
time
on useless studying the working and technology of our gear. This has
totally
nothing to do with hamradio.

ahum...

73'
Paul
PD0PSB
-- 
View this message in context:
http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-DSP-Rain-Dance-tp4538336p4539741.html 
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Philippe Trottet]

Hi Paul, 
Where is the Ham spirit, even if we are not able today to do our own
equipment as during the past.
Modern Hams became lazzy because technology give us everything on a
plate without any efforts !
May be I'm jurassic but Elecraft waked up my Ham spirit after decades
of using commercial rigs, professionally and on the Ham side.
Bst 73's
Philippe A65BI
K3#3616
 
By Hams, for Hams...What else !
 
 
 

Philippe TROTTET 
Head of Field Telecom Unit - DUBAI

 
United Nations High Commissioner for  Refugees
International Humanitarian City
Office Building Nº3 - Room 2, 1st Floor
Doha Street
PO BOX: 506013
DUBAI - U.A.E.
 
Dubai time: GMT +4
W: Sunday to Thursday
HQ Ext: 7120
Vsat: xx 41 22 7120
External:
+971 4 3601753
+41 22 739 7120
Mobile: +971 504531756
Website: www.unhcr.org ( http://www.unhcr.org/ )


 pd0psb p.s.bijp...@gmail.com 09-02-2010 11:50 

For me,  there are MUCH better uses of time when running  during a
contest
than fooling around dancing with the AGC  DSP  settings.  Further,
dancing
with the AGC  DSP simply isn't  neccessary

Totally agree! We hams should not be experimenting with our equipment,
we
should just buy a radio and make contacts. No need at all to waste any
time
on useless studying the working and technology of our gear. This has
totally
nothing to do with hamradio.

ahum...

73'
Paul
PD0PSB
-- 
View this message in context:
http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-DSP-Rain-Dance-tp4538336p4539741.html 
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Elecraft] AGC dance

[Hector Padron]

Well Rick and Don
 
For 18 years as a ham,I always was in the search for the best performance radio 
in the market and owned more than 100 radios from the main three Japan brands 
up to $3k and never was satisfied wth any of them,then switched to TT and owned 
the Orion,still not satisfied,radios lasted with me no more than 8 months or at 
the most a year,finally after owning a K3 for 15 months now,I have come to my 
full satisfaction,for more than I try to find a possible defect I can't.This K3 
is my dream for years,its a total enjoyment,once I sit in front of it and tune 
the bands,its a different new world,sometimes I have used the word american 
masterpiece but others has critized me for saying it,that's ok,for me it is.
Once more time,I thanks Elecraft team for have been designed and built the 
radio ranked # 1 in this planet on performance,some of my friends says its the 
highest performer but they consider it an ugly radio,I keep telling them its 
in the eyes of the beholder after selling the most beautiful radio in the 
market that I owned,the FT-2000 it was kinda hard to get used to this new look 
but now I see it everyday and I say,yes its beautiful radio as any other can 
be.And as Rick said it will be with me till the end of my life.Its definitively 
a keeper.
73

For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3


  
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Hector Padron]

Phillipe
Mine has 6.0,  2.8,  1.8,  1.0,  and 500hz
I keep dxing every night on 40M with the 1.8 roofer engaged and the DSP set at 
same BW with the width at 1.0 and what impress me the most is how I can be at 
just 2Khz away from a signal of 20db over S9 and still be able to pull a 55 to 
57 signal from Europe without been bothered by the close station,I have never 
been able to do this with any of the good radios I owned before.
I am using also the AGC settings of N1EU with satisfactory results.
Like I said,its a total enjoyment to operate this K3
73
 
AD4C


For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3

--- On Tue, 2/9/10, Philippe Trottet trot...@unhcr.org wrote:


From: Philippe Trottet trot...@unhcr.org
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC  DSP Rain Dance
To: K6LE k...@mac.com, d...@w3fpr.com
Cc: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 5:21 AM


Fully agree !
Race cars need fine (and often) tuning to get their best for each races, K3's 
are the same.
But my main main thing is to enjoy and have a lot of fun to chase the weak 
signal, specially in big pilups in SSB with my exotic callsign. Using for ssb 
FC: 0.95 and Width: 1.6k (6k, 2.8  1.8k filter installed) AGC mainly OFF  in 
that case and do not attempt I will respond first to the biggest signal.  
Use the N1EU AGC settings   http://n1eu.com/  with good results.
Personal rule: ssb=qro if needed but cw, exclusively qrp max 5w or qrpp.
MIC= MH2 and SONY MDR 7505 Headset, Keys: Vibroplex + straight key Siemens 
Baumuster T1, both connected.

Bst 73's
Philippe A65BI  (F5LTB)
k3#3616
Elecraft, by Hams, for Hams...What else !

 K6LE k...@mac.com 09-02-2010 6:46 
Well said!

I'm just glad I bought my K3 before I got too involved in some of the 
discussion on here.   If I hadn't I might not have done it and then I would be 
missing out on this wonderful radio.

To paraphrase what some others have said: This one is a keeper and I am taking 
it with me to my final resting place!


Rick
K6LE
#3757

On 2/8/2010, at 6:29 , Don Wilhelm wrote:

 Richard,
 
 All controls are not for everyone.  There are those who just want to 
 operate, and the default setting should be their choice.
 For those who want performance enhancement, then several of us are 
 trying to give instructions about how to effectively do that - because 
 the K3 does provide those performance enhancement tools.  We are not 
 making up for deficiencies in the K3 design, but are talking about how 
 to best use the tools available for extreme operating circumstances.  
 These suggestions may not be for everyone.
 
 Those performance enhancement tools will be used differently depending 
 on the circumstances of band conditions, antenna selection, and operator 
 preferences.  Not everyone will want or need to use those tools.
 
 Comparing it to driving a high performance vehicle.  If you just want to 
 cruise the streets, the normal settings will suffice, but if you want 
 maximum performance on the race track, you will want to use all the 
 tools at your disposal, and customize them for the track being used and 
 the driver's preferences (these may be different for every race).  Those 
 who want to just use the standard setting for this race will likely 
 not come in as front-runners, but they certainly can participate.
 
 Just how much you want to dance the AGC up and down is a decision each 
 owner must decide for him/herself, no one answer fits all.  Use the 
 default settings if you do not want to make any decisions or do not want 
 to do any experimenting (trial runs).  In the meantime, the information 
 gleaned from the various comments here will allow those interested in 
 fine tuning their K3 to do so in an intelligent and orderly manner.
 
 73,
 Don W3FPR

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Barry N1EU]

Actually, I think Paul was just joking  ;-)

73
Barry N1EU



Philippe Trottet wrote:
 
 Where is the Ham spirit, even if we are not able today to do our own
 equipment as during the past.
 Modern Hams became lazzy because technology give us everything on a
 plate without any efforts !
 
 pd0psb p.s.bijp...@gmail.com 09-02-2010 11:50 
 
 Totally agree! We hams should not be experimenting with our equipment,
 we
 should just buy a radio and make contacts. No need at all to waste any
 time
 on useless studying the working and technology of our gear. This has
 totally
 nothing to do with hamradio.



-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-DSP-Rain-Dance-tp4538336p4540821.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[pd0psb]

You tuned in correctly :-)
73'
Paul


Actually, I think Paul was just joking  ;-)

73
Barry N1EU 
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-DSP-Rain-Dance-tp4538336p4540835.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Bob - W0GI]

I assembled my K3 less then a week ago, and I don't see where you have to
dance around at all. There are certainly a lot of different settings, and I
am sure I will spend quite a bit of time finding the right settings for
certain conditions. But that is a good thing. Flexibility is good, and once
dialed in, you just operate.

The AGC on my Mark-V does operate better then the K3 AGC, at least with the
default settings. But then default setting is the key word, as I haven't
messed with the K3 settings. From what I read, there may be some changes
needed for the K3 AGC algorithms, but unlike some rigs, those changes will
amount to a firmware download.

For weak signal CW, I have found that AGC isn't so good anyway, and turning
it off on the K3 works magic. All you need to do is adjust the RF gain, and
the results are well worth a small effort. So simple a caveman can do it.

Personally, I want all the adjustment I can get. The Mark-V is a good radio,
and I still prefer it for SSB over the K3. But, I have found that the K3
Noise Blanker is a bit better then the Mark-V with some QRN, so it will get
some use on SSB for sure.

On CW and digital, the K3 just blows the Mark-V out of the water, and every
other rig I have ever used.

Maybe the K3 isn't for those that don't want to learn how to actually
operate a receiver properly. For those that do know how to use the controls,
the K3 is a masterpiece in functionality.

The ergonomics aren't like a full sized rig, so it takes some added effort
to learn the controls, but in less then a week, I find it easy to do what I
want, and while not as convenient as the Mark-V, when the conditions are
tough, the K3 performs. Maybe the FT-5000 will have the best compromise in
easy function and great performance, but I don't need another giant brick
that I can't take portable, and I sure wont play that much money for a rig. 

If it's a dance, it's a dance in heaven. :)

73,

Bob
 It would appear that some K-3 owners really enjoy dancing around 
wasting 
time and energy dancing the AGC up and down ... and forever fooling  with 
DSP adjustments...
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/AGC-DSP-Rain-Dance-tp4538336p4542677.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[RLVZ]

Guy-
 
It would appear that some K-3 owners really enjoy dancing around  wasting 
time and energy dancing the AGC up and down ... and forever fooling  with 
DSP adjustments... but there are some of us who do not enjoy that at  all!  
For me,  there are MUCH better uses of time when running  during a contest 
than fooling around dancing with the AGC  DSP  settings.  Further, dancing 
with the AGC  DSP simply isn't  neccessary in a well engineered modern day 
radio.  Therefore,  dancing with the AGC should be optional for those who 
enjoy doing so.
 
73,
Richard
 
 
It may be a dance, but hopefully careful intelligent musing over the matter 
 is convincing people that they should get the ambient well down in the  
analog-to-digital converter (ADC) operating range. If they do, a -99 threshold 
 is a -109 threshold, and further backing off RF gain can make it a -119 or 
-129  threshold as far as the ADC is concerned, and headroom is being used 
for what  headroom should be used for.

Maybe the variable gain by band in the MP  (with a menu override) was 
really a better strategy for a default. This same  issue dogged Orion
owners, and by the chatter a lot of them never understood  either.   REPLY: 
INDEED IT WAS! BUT THE FACT IS WHETHER THE VARIABLE  GAIN WAS SET ON OR OFF 
THE MP'S AGC WAS A JOY TO USE AND LISTEN TO.
 
73, Guy.
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Don Wilhelm]

Richard,

All controls are not for everyone.  There are those who just want to 
operate, and the default setting should be their choice.
For those who want performance enhancement, then several of us are 
trying to give instructions about how to effectively do that - because 
the K3 does provide those performance enhancement tools.  We are not 
making up for deficiencies in the K3 design, but are talking about how 
to best use the tools available for extreme operating circumstances.  
These suggestions may not be for everyone.

Those performance enhancement tools will be used differently depending 
on the circumstances of band conditions, antenna selection, and operator 
preferences.  Not everyone will want or need to use those tools.

Comparing it to driving a high performance vehicle.  If you just want to 
cruise the streets, the normal settings will suffice, but if you want 
maximum performance on the race track, you will want to use all the 
tools at your disposal, and customize them for the track being used and 
the driver's preferences (these may be different for every race).  Those 
who want to just use the standard setting for this race will likely 
not come in as front-runners, but they certainly can participate.

Just how much you want to dance the AGC up and down is a decision each 
owner must decide for him/herself, no one answer fits all.  Use the 
default settings if you do not want to make any decisions or do not want 
to do any experimenting (trial runs).  In the meantime, the information 
gleaned from the various comments here will allow those interested in 
fine tuning their K3 to do so in an intelligent and orderly manner.

73,
Don W3FPR

r...@aol.com wrote:
 Guy-
  
 It would appear that some K-3 owners really enjoy dancing around  wasting 
 time and energy dancing the AGC up and down ... and forever fooling  with 
 DSP adjustments... but there are some of us who do not enjoy that at  all!  
 For me,  there are MUCH better uses of time when running  during a contest 
 than fooling around dancing with the AGC  DSP  settings.  Further, dancing 
 with the AGC  DSP simply isn't  neccessary in a well engineered modern day 
 radio.  Therefore,  dancing with the AGC should be optional for those who 
 enjoy doing so.
  
 73,
 Richard
   

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[K6LE]

Well said!

I'm just glad I bought my K3 before I got too involved in some of the 
discussion on here.   If I hadn't I might not have done it and then I would be 
missing out on this wonderful radio.

To paraphrase what some others have said: This one is a keeper and I am taking 
it with me to my final resting place!


Rick
K6LE
#3757

On 2/8/2010, at 6:29 , Don Wilhelm wrote:

 Richard,
 
 All controls are not for everyone.  There are those who just want to 
 operate, and the default setting should be their choice.
 For those who want performance enhancement, then several of us are 
 trying to give instructions about how to effectively do that - because 
 the K3 does provide those performance enhancement tools.  We are not 
 making up for deficiencies in the K3 design, but are talking about how 
 to best use the tools available for extreme operating circumstances.  
 These suggestions may not be for everyone.
 
 Those performance enhancement tools will be used differently depending 
 on the circumstances of band conditions, antenna selection, and operator 
 preferences.  Not everyone will want or need to use those tools.
 
 Comparing it to driving a high performance vehicle.  If you just want to 
 cruise the streets, the normal settings will suffice, but if you want 
 maximum performance on the race track, you will want to use all the 
 tools at your disposal, and customize them for the track being used and 
 the driver's preferences (these may be different for every race).  Those 
 who want to just use the standard setting for this race will likely 
 not come in as front-runners, but they certainly can participate.
 
 Just how much you want to dance the AGC up and down is a decision each 
 owner must decide for him/herself, no one answer fits all.  Use the 
 default settings if you do not want to make any decisions or do not want 
 to do any experimenting (trial runs).  In the meantime, the information 
 gleaned from the various comments here will allow those interested in 
 fine tuning their K3 to do so in an intelligent and orderly manner.
 
 73,
 Don W3FPR

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Gary and Kathleen Pearse]

I've experimented almost daily during the last two Winter seasons  
searching 160M CW signals and making a few contacts. Not S9+, not  
loud and crowded Contesting or operating EU from the East Coast of  
NA, but typically weak signals from the middle of KL7.

I'm under the Aurora's influence in a typical S5-7 city noise floor,  
even with 100-150Hz filters enabled and all of the K3's arsenal  
brought to bear. It's typically S9+10-15 at 2.4 KHz for me. I have an  
Inv-L up 70'/out 55' with seven tuned elevated radials, and a  
rotatable Wellbrook receiving loop located on a 120x120' city lot  
surrounded by three power distribution lines. Yea I know - move.

If I only used AGC-on to hear the weak I may as well find another  
hobby. ATT on, RF (IF) gain up or down, doesn't matter. Threshold 08,  
Slope 000, filter gain up or down, doesn't matter. If the AGC (S or  
F) is used, the weak blend into the noise floor. I typically listen  
at a 450-500Hz tone.

However, if I turn the AGC off I can usually fine tune the AF and RF  
levels well enough hear, and usually work all heard. On 160M I've yet  
to hear as well with the AGC enabled as with it off.

Loud signals well out of my noise floor and on higher bands are  
another matter.

73, Gary NL7Y


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Philippe Trottet]

Fully agree !
Race cars need fine (and often) tuning to get their best for each races, K3's 
are the same.
But my main main thing is to enjoy and have a lot of fun to chase the weak 
signal, specially in big pilups in SSB with my exotic callsign. Using for ssb 
FC: 0.95 and Width: 1.6k (6k, 2.8  1.8k filter installed) AGC mainly OFF  in 
that case and do not attempt I will respond first to the biggest signal.  
Use the N1EU AGC settings   http://n1eu.com/  with good results.
Personal rule: ssb=qro if needed but cw, exclusively qrp max 5w or qrpp.
MIC= MH2 and SONY MDR 7505 Headset, Keys: Vibroplex + straight key Siemens 
Baumuster T1, both connected.
 
Bst 73's
Philippe A65BI  (F5LTB)
k3#3616
Elecraft, by Hams, for Hams...What else !

 K6LE k...@mac.com 09-02-2010 6:46 
Well said!

I'm just glad I bought my K3 before I got too involved in some of the 
discussion on here.   If I hadn't I might not have done it and then I would be 
missing out on this wonderful radio.

To paraphrase what some others have said: This one is a keeper and I am taking 
it with me to my final resting place!


Rick
K6LE
#3757

On 2/8/2010, at 6:29 , Don Wilhelm wrote:

 Richard,
 
 All controls are not for everyone.  There are those who just want to 
 operate, and the default setting should be their choice.
 For those who want performance enhancement, then several of us are 
 trying to give instructions about how to effectively do that - because 
 the K3 does provide those performance enhancement tools.  We are not 
 making up for deficiencies in the K3 design, but are talking about how 
 to best use the tools available for extreme operating circumstances.  
 These suggestions may not be for everyone.
 
 Those performance enhancement tools will be used differently depending 
 on the circumstances of band conditions, antenna selection, and operator 
 preferences.  Not everyone will want or need to use those tools.
 
 Comparing it to driving a high performance vehicle.  If you just want to 
 cruise the streets, the normal settings will suffice, but if you want 
 maximum performance on the race track, you will want to use all the 
 tools at your disposal, and customize them for the track being used and 
 the driver's preferences (these may be different for every race).  Those 
 who want to just use the standard setting for this race will likely 
 not come in as front-runners, but they certainly can participate.
 
 Just how much you want to dance the AGC up and down is a decision each 
 owner must decide for him/herself, no one answer fits all.  Use the 
 default settings if you do not want to make any decisions or do not want 
 to do any experimenting (trial runs).  In the meantime, the information 
 gleaned from the various comments here will allow those interested in 
 fine tuning their K3 to do so in an intelligent and orderly manner.
 
 73,
 Don W3FPR

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC DSP Rain Dance

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Hi Richard,

The Dance referred to the posted conversations about AGC, not
changing settings while operating the K3.  The only time I monkey with
DSP and the AGC is when I'm testing something out.  And before all the
testing the last couple of weeks, I had not changed the AGC settings
in over a year. Likewise I had not changed where PRE/ATT are set per
band since that's been available. I never need to touch AGC or DSP
config settings in a contest. I change the RF gain occasionally as a
band opens and closes, but not really that much.

I am well acquainted with MP's. I would agree with you on the MP's
AGC, to a point. The MP's audio was smooth.  I still own an MP and use
it from time to time (as I do a 75A3 and a Yaesu FT101ZD).  I have
used maybe ten different MP's over the last decade, but it has been
forever replaced as the prime rig by the K3.

At NY4A when we gather for the multi/op DX contest operations, for a
decade we brought in extra MP's to go with Howie's MP's. My MP was the
first one we used out there. We did all the key-click mods, did the
AGC mod where the MP's fast AGC was TOO fast on CW and mushed the CW
in pileups (sound familiar?).  In the K3 that's a setting and a
choice.

There have been 10 different operators out at the DX wars at NY4A over
the decade, all serious contest guys, with wins in ARRL and CQ DX and
WPX.  Among them they owned 9 MP's.

Two MP owners (3 MP's) are no longer active on the bands. The other
six MPs are replaced with K3's. Among the 8 operators still active
there are 7 K3's, an eighth K3 that we hope will be built for the ARRL
DX CW, and one op is waiting for a budget opportunity to replace his
Pro III with a ninth K3 for the diversity on 160. One of the ops
replaced his Kenwood main rig with an Orion II which he prefers over
the K3 but now only brings to NY4A as a backup in case we blow up a
position. We have used his Orion at a run position several times but
most of the ops originally found it hard to get used to, and the menu
RF gain was a never-ending source of confusion the first time anyone
used it. Those of us who have learned the Orion have no qualms about
using it.

Yet six of the seven ops who used both a K3 and an Orion bought K3's.

One thing that NOBODY misses from the MP days is the extra layer of
crud at the bottom of every band added by its RF/IF string. K3
complaints have been dealt with by mods and firmware changes.  Howie
is happy with his two fairly early K3's and has to be goaded into
updating his firmware so that we're all at the same level and don't
lose features we've gotten used to.

73, Guy.

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 8:11 PM,  r...@aol.com wrote:
 Guy-

 It would appear that some K-3 owners really enjoy dancing around  wasting
 time and energy dancing the AGC up and down ... and forever fooling  with
 DSP adjustments... but there are some of us who do not enjoy that at  all!
 For me,  there are MUCH better uses of time when running  during a contest
 than fooling around dancing with the AGC  DSP  settings.  Further, dancing
 with the AGC  DSP simply isn't  neccessary in a well engineered modern day
 radio.  Therefore,  dancing with the AGC should be optional for those who
 enjoy doing so.

 73,
 Richard


 It may be a dance, but hopefully careful intelligent musing over the matter
  is convincing people that they should get the ambient well down in the
 analog-to-digital converter (ADC) operating range. If they do, a -99 threshold
  is a -109 threshold, and further backing off RF gain can make it a -119 or
 -129  threshold as far as the ADC is concerned, and headroom is being used
 for what  headroom should be used for.

 Maybe the variable gain by band in the MP  (with a menu override) was
 really a better strategy for a default. This same  issue dogged Orion
 owners, and by the chatter a lot of them never understood  either.   REPLY:
 INDEED IT WAS! BUT THE FACT IS WHETHER THE VARIABLE  GAIN WAS SET ON OR OFF
 THE MP'S AGC WAS A JOY TO USE AND LISTEN TO.

 73, Guy.
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[Elecraft] AGC and DNR

[David Y.]

Hi All,

This has probably been discussed, and I obviously missed it.  It's probably 
in the manual somewhere too.  Since I have not previously been one to turn 
my AGC off, I just wasn't aware of it.  Now I find that if I turn my AGC 
off, my DNR will not engage--I get a big N/A.  So, this is normal?  You 
must have the AGC on to use DNR?  I apologize in advance for my ignorance on 
this matter.

Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and DNR

[Lyle Johnson]

 ...I find that if I turn my AGC 
 off, my DNR will not engage--I get a big N/A.  So, this is normal?

Yes, this has always been the case and remains so.  The LMS algorithm 
can become unstable under certain conditions, one of which is related to 
maximum signal level.  With AGC OFF, NR could become unstable from a 
really strong signal, so it is inhibited from operating.

73,

Lyle KK7P
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[Elecraft] AGC and DNR

[Hector Padron]

Dave you are not an ignorant because now that you mentioned it,my K3 behaves 
the same way, it look like DSP NR works in conjunction with the AGC so when you 
disengage it then NR will not work at all and the N/A (not aplicable) sign 
shows at the display,anyway I never use the radio without the AGC,for me it 
works better that way,but maybe this is another issue that Elecraft should fix.
 
AD4C
 


For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, David Y. w7...@cox.net wrote:


From: David Y. w7...@cox.net
Subject: [Elecraft] AGC and DNR
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 2:46 PM


Hi All,

This has probably been discussed, and I obviously missed it.  It's probably 
in the manual somewhere too.  Since I have not previously been one to turn 
my AGC off, I just wasn't aware of it.  Now I find that if I turn my AGC 
off, my DNR will not engage--I get a big N/A.  So, this is normal?  You 
must have the AGC on to use DNR?  I apologize in advance for my ignorance on 
this matter.

Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC and DNR

[David Y.]

Hector,

Lyle emailed an explanation.  Apparently DNR gets unstable without AGC, so it 
is disengaged when AGC is off.  I just hadn't noticed it before since, like 
you, I rarely have AGC off.  I was experimenting based on the thread about AGC 
settings when I noticed it.  I'm still looking, but haven't found where it was 
ever mentioned before.  Anyway, it's not a bug in my radio, and Lyle's 
explanation makes perfect sense now that I think about it.  It also give me 
added appreciation for the things they have to consider when they provide all 
these neat goodies like DNR.  

Dave W7AQK


  - Original Message - 
  From: Hector Padron 
  To: David Y. 
  Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
  Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:53 AM
  Subject: AGC and DNR


Dave you are not an ignorant because now that you mentioned it,my K3 
behaves the same way, it look like DSP NR works in conjunction with the AGC so 
when you disengage it then NR will not work at all and the N/A (not 
aplicable) sign shows at the display,anyway I never use the radio without the 
AGC,for me it works better that way,but maybe this is another issue that 
Elecraft should fix.

AD4C



For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, David Y. w7...@cox.net wrote:


  From: David Y. w7...@cox.net
  Subject: [Elecraft] AGC and DNR
  To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
  Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 2:46 PM


  Hi All,

  This has probably been discussed, and I obviously missed it.  It's 
probably 
  in the manual somewhere too.  Since I have not previously been one to 
turn 
  my AGC off, I just wasn't aware of it.  Now I find that if I turn my 
AGC 
  off, my DNR will not engage--I get a big N/A.  So, this is normal?  
You 
  must have the AGC on to use DNR?  I apologize in advance for my 
ignorance on 
  this matter.

  Dave W7AQK


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[Elecraft] AGC/RF/AF

[K5NU]

Elecrafters,

I am keeping up with interest the thread on the use of RF gain, ATT, PRE, 
etc.  For the past several years my time has been spent primarily chasing dx 
on my favorite band, 80m. So far this season, I have managed to work 177 
countries on 80m.  This means like the 160 guys, I spend most of my time 
trying to hear weak signals amongst the band noise/qrn/qrm.  I have found 
what for me is a sweet spot with my K3 using diversity rx, with the nb and 
nr(1-3) , RF and AF gain reduced on both rxs.  I would certainly not turn 
down any improvement, but find the K3 quite good at digging out the weak 
ones.  I use Bose noise canceling headphones.  For diversity I use the 4 
square on the main and a short Beverage on the Sub RX.  I very seldom use 
narrower bandwidth than 2.0 Khz on rx.

I am looking forward to further improvements in the K3 and congratulate and 
appreciate the Elecraft team for their continued efforts on our behalf.

73,  Mike K5NU 

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[Elecraft] AGC fast recover after a K3 transmission

[Arie Kleingeld PA3A]

Worked my K3 in the IARU contest this weekend (PA6HQ 20m cw).
Performed flawlessly except for

Yes the AGC, and in the following manner:

I am one of thse people who always use AGC slow in CW and in SSB.
(Please guys, spare me the comments that I have to ride the AGC, that is
not the issue here.)
When running in the contest, very strong stations are often followed bij
very weak stations. After the K3-transmission the AGC starts at the
point where it was left before the transmission. (Lyle explained that
before).
It would be nice if the Gain was reset in a smart way at the end of a
transmission so I would not miss the first letter of a call when a weak
station follows a strong one.

By the way, this also stands for SSB.

It was mentioned that the way that the agc is implemented now was the
best in normal QSO'ing and I agree. But the K3 was built to be top
performing in heavy contest / pile-up environment. And if the call rate
is high, a recovered agc at the beginning of a reception looks like a
fine feature to me.


Would be nice if this smart reset for the agc could be implemented in
the menu?
Any one say aye?


Thanks all,

73
Arie PA3A

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC fast recover after a K3 transmission

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

What version of the firmware are you using?

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A p...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 Worked my K3 in the IARU contest this weekend (PA6HQ 20m cw).
 Performed flawlessly except for

 Yes the AGC, and in the following manner:

 I am one of thse people who always use AGC slow in CW and in SSB.
 (Please guys, spare me the comments that I have to ride the AGC, that is
 not the issue here.)
 When running in the contest, very strong stations are often followed bij
 very weak stations. After the K3-transmission the AGC starts at the
 point where it was left before the transmission. (Lyle explained that
 before).
 It would be nice if the Gain was reset in a smart way at the end of a
 transmission so I would not miss the first letter of a call when a weak
 station follows a strong one.

 By the way, this also stands for SSB.

 It was mentioned that the way that the agc is implemented now was the
 best in normal QSO'ing and I agree. But the K3 was built to be top
 performing in heavy contest / pile-up environment. And if the call rate
 is high, a recovered agc at the beginning of a reception looks like a
 fine feature to me.


 Would be nice if this smart reset for the agc could be implemented in
 the menu?
 Any one say aye?


 Thanks all,

 73
 Arie PA3A

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-- 
73, Guy  K2AV
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC fast recover after a K3 transmission

[Radio Amateur N5GE]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:26:11 +0200, Arie Kleingeld PA3A
p...@xs4all.nl wrote:

Worked my K3 in the IARU contest this weekend (PA6HQ 20m cw).
Performed flawlessly except for

Yes the AGC, and in the following manner:

I am one of thse people who always use AGC slow in CW and in SSB.
(Please guys, spare me the comments that I have to ride the AGC, that is
not the issue here.)
When running in the contest, very strong stations are often followed bij
very weak stations. After the K3-transmission the AGC starts at the
point where it was left before the transmission. (Lyle explained that
before).
It would be nice if the Gain was reset in a smart way at the end of a
transmission so I would not miss the first letter of a call when a weak
station follows a strong one.

By the way, this also stands for SSB.

It was mentioned that the way that the agc is implemented now was the
best in normal QSO'ing and I agree. But the K3 was built to be top
performing in heavy contest / pile-up environment. And if the call rate
is high, a recovered agc at the beginning of a reception looks like a
fine feature to me.


Would be nice if this smart reset for the agc could be implemented in
the menu?
Any one say aye?


Thanks all,

73
Arie PA3A

{snip}

Nay

Tom, N5GE

n...@n5ge.com
K3 #806, K3 #1055
XV144, XV432, KRC2
W1 and other small kits.
http://www.n5ge.com

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC fast recover after a K3 transmission

[Arie Kleingeld PA3A]

Firmware is latest beta.
 
Arie PA3A

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: guyk...@gmail.com [mailto:guyk...@gmail.com] Namens Guy Olinger
K2AV
Verzonden: maandag 13 juli 2009 3:17
Aan: Arie Kleingeld PA3A
CC: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Onderwerp: Re: [Elecraft] AGC fast recover after a K3 transmission


What version of the firmware are you using?



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[Elecraft] AGC settings

[w8zn]

Thanks to everyone for the input on AGC settings.

Terry
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[Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[W1UE]

I'm planning on a major effort in the RDXC this weekend, so I just 
downloaded the beta firmware
3.03 and installed it in my K3.  After installing, my AGC parameters are 
as follows:
AGC DcySoft
AGC Hold   .30
AGC PLSNorm
AGC SLP000
AGC THR   008
AGC -F   120
AGC -S   020

Since I haven't used this before (and am a confirmed AGC OFF user on 
CW), what kind
of parameters will give me the best performance in a pileup with 10 
stations calling? 

I've gotten used to AGC OFF, but there is a LOT of RF gain tweaking and 
occasional
BLASTING out of the headphones when a strong signal follows a weak one.  
Using the
AF LIM of even 030 creates too much  distortion on even fairly weak signals.

I should have time in this contest to play with the AGC settings, so I'm 
open to any suggested
settings that anyone has.

Dennis W1UE
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[David Gilbert]

For the most part, and as Wayne has said several times, ANY non-linear 
gain characteristic is going to create some distortion of a signal, and 
it will create additional passband mixer products if multiple signals 
exist.  Those distortion and mixer products will blur whatever you're 
trying to copy.  Keep in mind that narrow filters help reduce the 
candidates for mixing, and that noise spikes count as signals.

AGC is by definition non-linear gain, but so is the AF LIM audio 
limiter, and in my opinion the trick for working pileups is to use just 
enough AGC (or use none at all and ride the RF GAIN control) to keep the 
audio from reaching the AF LIM threshold.  K6LL and others have pointed 
out that the max limit of 30 for that setting should probably be raised, 
but I've been able to find acceptable AGC settings that seem to keep my 
head from banging up against that ceiling.  A very good reference for me 
was the set of curves generated by K8ZOA, and by looking at them you can 
see the extreme non-linearity that exists for aggressive AGC settings 
... especially around the threshold breakpoint.  Using low values of AGC 
THR appear to me to be a very bad idea for any kind of weak signal 
contest work.

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/Documents/Elecraft%20K3%20Transceiver%20AGC%20Parameters%20and%20S-meter.pdf

The only thing more non-linear than a non-linear gain characteristic is 
a time varying non-linear gain characteristic that changes rapidly 
enough to occur during the signal(s) you're trying to copy.  In a 
contest you generally want to have quick AGC recovery for snappy QSOs, 
but fast AGC with aggressive threshold and slope settings is probably 
the worst of all possibilities, especially in the presence of noise 
spikes.  It just whipsaws the gain curve around all over the place.

The K3 has a wide enough range of available AGC settings to do the job 
you need to do ... or ... to make a mess out of your receiver, depending 
upon the conditions.  I really like the addition of the AGC DCY = SOFT 
feature, but I do not like the default settings for AGC THR and AGC SLP.

There certainly is no ideal AGC setting anyway.  The best settings for 
single signal copy in a low noise situation (like prowling for weak DX) 
are certainly not going to be very good for working DX in a contest, and 
the ideal settings for working a strong signal pileup on 20m when the 
band is quiet probably won't work very well for distinguishing between 
multiple weaker signals in the midst of 80m noise spikes.  Personally, I 
think a neat feature for a piece of software like K3_EZ would be to 
allow multiple combinations of AGC settings that could be stored and 
recalled as needed for changing conditions instead of having to change 
each parameter singly and separately.  Just click on a box (say one of 
five or six?) and send the appropriate full set of AGC settings to the 
K3 on the fly.

All that being said, my AGC settings are almost identical to yours 
except that I have AGC PLS = OFF.  My K3 is only about 6 weeks old, 
though, and I haven't had a chance to use it in very many contests, so 
I'm still experimenting a LOT with the settings myself.

73,
Dave   AB7E


W1UE wrote:
 I'm planning on a major effort in the RDXC this weekend, so I just 
 downloaded the beta firmware
 3.03 and installed it in my K3.  After installing, my AGC parameters are 
 as follows:
 AGC DcySoft
 AGC Hold   .30
 AGC PLSNorm
 AGC SLP000
 AGC THR   008
 AGC -F   120
 AGC -S   020

 Since I haven't used this before (and am a confirmed AGC OFF user on 
 CW), what kind
 of parameters will give me the best performance in a pileup with 10 
 stations calling? 

 I've gotten used to AGC OFF, but there is a LOT of RF gain tweaking and 
 occasional
 BLASTING out of the headphones when a strong signal follows a weak one.  
 Using the
 AF LIM of even 030 creates too much  distortion on even fairly weak signals.

 I should have time in this contest to play with the AGC settings, so I'm 
 open to any suggested
 settings that anyone has.

 Dennis W1UE
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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[Joe Planisky]

Couldn't you do this already with the K3Utility's save and restore  
configuration feature?

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:04 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

 Personally, I
 think a neat feature for a piece of software like K3_EZ would be to
 allow multiple combinations of AGC settings that could be stored and
 recalled as needed for changing conditions instead of having to change
 each parameter singly and separately.  Just click on a box (say one of
 five or six?) and send the appropriate full set of AGC settings to the
 K3 on the fly.


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[Dave Hachadorian]

- Original Message - 
From: W1UE egan.denni...@gmail.com
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 11:53 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03


 I've gotten used to AGC OFF, but there is a LOT of RF gain 
 tweaking and
 occasional
 BLASTING out of the headphones when a strong signal 
 follows a weak one.
 Using the
 AF LIM of even 030 creates too much  distortion on even 
 fairly weak signals.

Hi Dennis,

Regarding AGC OFF -

If you plug your headphones into the speaker jack, you can 
use AGC OFF and turn down the AF gain, and avoid hitting the 
K3's limiter. I have a little network with a small amount of 
attenuation to cut down on background hiss. I also have back 
to back 1N5818 Schottky Diodes across the headphones for 
hearing protection. The diodes introduce just a little fuzz 
on the loudest signals - nothing like the gross distortion 
caused by the K3's AF limiter.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ 

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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[David Gilbert]

I suppose, but that seems like an awfully slow route to be trying to use 
during a contest, especially if you need to try a couple of different 
ones to see which works best at the time (different bands, band open or 
closing, running versus SP for weak multipliers, etc).  I could change 
the settings manually quicker, I think.

73,
Dave   AB7E



Joe Planisky wrote:
 Couldn't you do this already with the K3Utility's save and restore 
 configuration feature?

 73
 -- 
 Joe KB8AP

 On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:04 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

 Personally, I
 think a neat feature for a piece of software like K3_EZ would be to
 allow multiple combinations of AGC settings that could be stored and
 recalled as needed for changing conditions instead of having to change
 each parameter singly and separately.  Just click on a box (say one of
 five or six?) and send the appropriate full set of AGC settings to the
 K3 on the fly.



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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[Dick Dievendorff]

The K3 Utility's save/restore is all or nothing, and it takes a while to
perform. It's not a click on a box experience; it takes minutes and a full
MCU reset.

Different objectives.  Bill has done a fine job with K3-EZ.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~n2bc/SW.htm

Dick, K6KR


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Joe Planisky
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 10:57 AM
To: David Gilbert
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

Couldn't you do this already with the K3Utility's save and restore  
configuration feature?

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On Mar 18, 2009, at 10:04 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

 Personally, I
 think a neat feature for a piece of software like K3_EZ would be to
 allow multiple combinations of AGC settings that could be stored and
 recalled as needed for changing conditions instead of having to change
 each parameter singly and separately.  Just click on a box (say one of
 five or six?) and send the appropriate full set of AGC settings to the
 K3 on the fly.


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[Dave Hachadorian]

- Original Message - 
From: Dick Dievendorff die...@comcast.net
To: 'Joe Planisky' jp...@jeffnet.org; 'David Gilbert'
xda...@cis-broadband.com
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

  Bill has done a fine job with K3-EZ.
 http://home.roadrunner.com/~n2bc/SW.htm


Looks pretty cool! I wonder if K3-EZ can somehow share the 
rs-232 link with a logging program?

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ


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Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

[Doug Faunt N6TQS +1-510-655-8604]

I wonder if LP-BRIDGE would work for this?

73, doug

   From: Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net
   Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:21:49 -


   - Original Message - 
   From: Dick Dievendorff die...@comcast.net
   To: 'Joe Planisky' jp...@jeffnet.org; 'David Gilbert'
   xda...@cis-broadband.com
   Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
   Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:46 PM
   Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AGC settings with Firmware 3.03

 Bill has done a fine job with K3-EZ.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~n2bc/SW.htm
   

   Looks pretty cool! I wonder if K3-EZ can somehow share the 
   rs-232 link with a logging program?

   Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
   Yuma, AZ


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